Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Jack Johnson

Episode Date: October 4, 2023

Jack Johnson is a singer-songwriter, musician, filmmaker, and surfer from the shores of Hawaii. Propelled by his signature blend of laid-back acoustic folk-rock and his innate ability to craft soul-stirring melodies and lyrics, Johnson’s music career took flight with the release of his debut album, the critically acclaimed Brushfire Fairytales (2001). Following the success of his debut, Johnson continued to captivate audiences with albums like On and On (2003), In Between Dreams (2005), From Here to Now to You (2013), All the Light Above It Too (2017), and Meet the Moonlight (2022). ------- Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Manna Vitality https://mannavitality.com/ ------- LMNT Electrolytes  https://drinklmnt.com/tetra Get a free LMNT Sample Pack with your order. ------- House of Macadamias  https://www.houseofmacadamias.com/tetra ------- Squarespace https://squarespace.com/tetra

Tetragraman. What I identify as, like, you know, like, what am I? It's more of a surfer than anything. The first thing I can remember doing as far as an activity or any kind of hobby or something like that, it was just always there. My older brothers had boards and I got the hand me downs and my dad served my mom used to go out and boogie board with us and it was like a family thing which is something we all did together. And yeah, these real early memories of being on the front of my dad's board, taking off on the waves and then kind of like seeing the curl of the wave coming over.

And then totally wiping out and like having a feeling his hand reaching for me and finding me underwater and those kind of things and bringing me up to the surface. And it would freak me out at times, but he was always there and thinking back, it was like, felt kind of wild to be that out of control. But now knowing how competent he was in the water and then doing it with my own children,

it was only an arm to reach away. I'm probably a really small, their way, but it felt gigantic back then. But those are some of their earliest memories. And then, so I don't even remember when I started. It was just something I've always done since I could stand, you know, before I could ride a bike, not kind of thing. So the relation to music, I don't know. It's like, we're just everything.

Everything. Everything. It feels like surfers are different than everybody else. Yeah, it's a strange thing to do if you think about it. It's like really easy now that it's become a pop culture and kind of like, it's the commercial aspect of it. But my dad's generation, it was definitely a subculture. And then I was around during the time in the 80s

when it was kind of shifting and becoming kind of mainstream stuff, but it was If you go to a root of what it is and think about it such a strange thing to do is like these waves that travel across an ocean and They finally are far enough from the source You know or the wind and everything basically started these swells up and they have time to kind of separate into these clean things and That last moment before they hit the shore, you're paddling out just far enough to try to catch one, use the gravity. And then the momentum you get to get back up higher. And then the gravity down again.

And then you use that momentum. And you kind of like you get in this rhythm where it produces speed. And then to learn to improvise is the wave changes and all the different turns you can do. It's like there's some of them are functional and some become sort of these aberrations that you just do for a creative gesture on the wave. And so it's like an empty canvas. And you see people, they ride them in a way that is really inspiring.

You see somebody else. When we were kids, I can remember the first time we also Kelly Slater surf. He was the most popular surfer in the world. And he was a teenager, he came to Hawaii, and we all thought we were pretty good. And I'll say, and we saw what he was doing on a wave. Hold on, we can do that. But of course we couldn't do that,

but we could try at least, to kind of like elevate the idea of what we could do on a wave. And was Jerry Lopez still around at that time when you were growing up? Yeah, Jerry. He's a North Shore. He's a North Shore. Yeah, he lived on North Shore at that time,

moved to Maui eventually. But yeah, I've always known Jerry on some level. He was sort of a childhood hero for all of us, but he surfing was a strange thing because it's a very small world. And so even though we would have these heroes, like Tom Kern was my hero as a kid. And then once a year, for a few months,

he'd be on the North Shore where I grew up and I'd see him around. You could be in the line behind him at the store or something, and be like, there he is. And so that whole thing of getting to meet your heroes kind of happened real early for me and it was a good thing. This realized people were human.

Jerry Lopez, Tom Kerr and Mark Ocarupo, these were all, you know, I'd see them in magazines or we see them in movies, surf movies, we just would watch every single one and we would try to go out and emulate what they were doing on the waves and bend our back knee just how they were, hold our hands, how they were and everything. But then you'd see them in real life and you could talk to them. So that was a strange thing. But Jerry Lopez, he was friends with my dad. My dad was a little older than him, but they would hang out from time to time

and he was always really sweet to me. Jerry and I are really good friends to this day. Sirth movies are so interesting. They have so much power. Remember the movie, Writing Giants? Yeah. When that came out, I had a plan with a friend of mine to go see it in a movie theater at midnight, and we were both in a terrible mood, and it was late, and we were the only people

in the theater, and we got there and just like, what are we doing here? Let's go to sleep, and then the movie started, and it could have been 10 hours long. It would have been, it was so much fun to fall into the world of surf. Even through film, there's something about some magical connection between film and surfing. You can watch it forever. How do you think it works? Oh, I don't know. I have great memories of being a kid when we were probably 14, 13, 14, and a surf movie had come through town. I don't know, I have great memories of being a kid when we were probably 14, 13, 14, and a surf movie had come through town.

It was still that era where there was no surf movies on our TV screens. If you wanted to see one, you had to go to the cinema and actually go to the movie theater and everybody would be all surfers in there and it would be packed in. When they would start the film, the lights would go down. Everybody would be hootin' and hollering. And then when the first wave would come on, you know, it was like the energy that would be in that room, it felt like you were riding the wave, something to do with how they captured it on the film.

And I think, especially the water shots, you know, like when you first see something where there's, or listen to it music or film, and it's just you're experiencing the pure art, you're not thinking about how it's made, you know, as a kid, I can remember the way that surf films felt. And then later I made film surf films. I started, I got into camera work and studied it.

And I had some idea as soon as I got on the water with my first water housing, it was easy. The only tricky part was learning how to load the film, how to set your F stop. And all that stuff was what you had to learn but as for surfers. We all knew exactly where to be to get the shot so I can load my camera for anybody when we're making surf films and I give it to any server. And they can get the perfect shot cuz I knew where to position themselves on a wave and so I'm jumping ahead but thinking back to when we were kids. And so I'm jumping ahead but thinking back to when we were kids and seeing those water shots, they were shot by people that had this sort of really beautiful relationship with the ocean. I know exactly where to be to get the perfect shot. And so as they're coming by and super slow motion,

you know, you get to experience that. I think for somebody who doesn't surf, it's the closest thing you could probably get to that feeling of surfing, those slow motion on 35 millimeter shots coming past the camera. So cool. Were you the first generation of surfers who grew up watching surf movies to make surf movies? Yeah, yeah. So I grew up, you know, you saw the old classic surfing

the summer and, or in the summer. Sorry. And then there was, there was other ones that Jack You know, you saw the old classics, surf in the summer, or in the summer, sorry. And then there was other ones that Jack McCoy was a great filmmaker. And again, somebody I'd see around and the first water housing I ever had was one of Jack McCoy's old ones that was in my brother's garage.

I found it and I asked him, he said, oh, I think I got Jack McCoy's, so I called him and he let me have that. It held a bowl of X like I wind up at 60 millimeter camera. So growing up on the Jack McCoy films, and then later like Taylor Steele was making these Sir Films that he was just a few years older than me, and he was a kid when he was making them though.

So we were still teenagers when those films were coming out. So that was the switch from film to video where all the sudden any teenage cake could do it. But Taylor Steele was doing it the best. He just, he had that work ethic where he was happy to sleep on a floor. He was happy to barely get new food and just travel and sleep on the beach or whatever. He was just, he was getting the shots and he was with all the surfers that everybody wanted to see. And so that generation of surf films, it was, it was all videos, less cinematic, but it was really exciting for us how he's capturing these moments that nobody really could,

unless you were friends, like that's the thing, he was a friend amongst the surfers and got something really special. So you're responding not only to nature, but to the source, not only to nature, but to the source, talking about how when referencing the book you wrote recently, and I really enjoyed reading that, and listening in my car. Once somebody produces something that puts it back into the world, it becomes part of the source. And so we were responding to those surf films.

How much did it change when it went from 16 millimeter to digital? It's great that you got to experience the 16 millimeter version of it. Yeah, and so what we did was being that the films I grew up on during that time where you're not thinking about how they're made or not even aware what digital or 16 is, that's the films I grew up on. And then when I was aware, it switched over to digital. And there was a certain feeling I was missing from when I was a kid. So I went to film school in Santa Barbara,

studied film and I knew how to work a 60 millimeter camera and I knew all these guys from growing up. I was actually when I graduated thinking, there's no way I'm gonna make surf films, I'm gonna do something else, you know. And then I got invited on my first surf trip and I thought like, why wouldn't I go? I'll get some practice.

And as soon as I went, I guess in my mind, I was like, I don't wanna sit on the beach and film my friend surfing, I wanna surf, you know, it's like the last thing I wanna do. But that first surf trip I did, I literally, my forehead came off from too much sun, like the whole thing peeled off, because I'd film for probably six hours a day

if the waves were good and then I would surf for like another four or five hours on my own. When they were taking breaks I would just have some granola bars in my pocket or something and as soon as they were overly sweet because as soon as I'd finished filming I'd load up my cameras and they would take them for me back to the boat or wherever we were and I'd go surf and so it was a lot of fun but we our idea was to make them all on 60 millimeter. So the films that we did thicker than water and September sessions and other ones I worked on, they were 100% shot on 60 millimeter. We didn't have any digital video in there at all.

Was anyone else doing that? Not really at the time that I heard about. And I met, I met some older filmmakers that switched over to digital. And it's like one of those things, you hear these conversations of a music a lot of times, when technology becomes available, why wouldn't she switch over? And so, you know, some of them didn't really get or were doing like, why would the video so good,

this and that, you know, I would do, it's too hard, you gotta get a process, and you gotta travel through all the TSA stuff with your film, and it's gonna get radiated. So there's all these problems, and they'd always be like just shoot on video so much easier But we had this idea of just like no, it's got to be 60 millimeter here the whole film had a certain feel that yeah At the time you definitely couldn't capture that film. I mean these days more and more there's apps you can You know things you can put on effects to try to make it look like an old film, but at that time there wasn't

You weren't capable of really getting the look still. So we wanted that look. We wanted a few. It's also a different head when you're working in analog because you have limited resources. You can't shoot for it. Yeah, that's true. So there's a more considered point of view from the beginning. Yeah, there's limitations that are nice sometimes. Sometimes I'd bring a certain amount of film that I would guess we were going to need on that trip. The waves would be really good or the scenery would be so beautiful that I'd use all the color film and all of a sudden I'd be like, sorry guys I only have black and white left and I see those films now that I look in their surf sessions they're in black and white and it's not a post-production choice we made it's just I only have black and white film

there but I see it and I love it I love the way it looks and I love the fact that it was what we had, you know, so we had to use it. So cool. So when you went to film school, you didn't go to film school thinking you were going to make surf film? At first I had no idea when I went to school what I wanted to do and I was actually studying math at first and I met my wife, she's my girlfriend then, but we're still married. She was taking math too and I think part of the reason I stuck with math is her, I just wanted to be in classes with her. And then she would tutor me and I think she was the one that told me at some point like, I don't think you should be a math teacher, you know, she saw me go from probably getting

like a B to a C to a D. There was actually a class called transition to higher mathematics and I was in that class and I didn't make the transition. I remember her saying, you better think about something else. She was a double major, my wife. She was math and art. She loved architecture. And I think that was the plan at that point. So she had all these, she knew all these art students too, as well as being in the math class. And so she took me to this thing called real loud. And it was a film festival, a student film festival

they would project it. And people would either do like, you'd make your sounds. If you wanted footsteps, they would have like a box and they had microphones down there. People could either make the sound effects as the film was playing, or there'd be a band playing doing like the background music for the film, but it was all live.

And I was so moved, it was called Real Loud. And it was like, you know, our EEL, Real Loud. And I was talking to it. Somebody was sitting next to me that had made one of them. And they were like, this is my final project. This is what I've been working on this quarter. And I remember thinking right then, like, wait, I could be doing this. Instead of doing math classes.

And so I switched over like next day, went and changed it to film. I just love making stuff. I mean, I've been in bands at that point, we had a college band going, whether it was making that, or I was always making this little animation, things when I was a kid,

I had a little video camera and I would have to actually push like, record, stop, then change the frame, record, stop. And it was a real subtle thing, where like if you went too quick, it actually didn't even take a frame, but if you went too quick, it actually didn't even take a frame. But if you went too long, it looked kind of dumb. And but I would make those things all the time.

I love making stuff, visual and audio. And so it just real quickly became a thing. I'm just working on student films, whether it was helping a friend do a documentary or acting in somebody else's film sometimes. Whatever it took to get these projects done, that became everything. and I think at first Maybe in my mind

I was thinking about films you'd see a move in the movie theaters and stuff I never really know how it worked. I didn't realize you had to move to LA and LA was always kind of big for me it was Being from Hawaii Santa Barbara felt like a big town at the time So then I started thinking oh maybe documentaries because I didn't really want to move and like, be based there. I always loved going into LA. It was always really exciting for me, but I love kind of being able to get out to even as the music career started. I remember going and playing little clubs, but also being kind of excited to get out. It was just really big, you know, it's like a big city, and I still like it for a lot of reasons, but it's

overwhelming for me too. So I think with the film, I started thinking, oh, maybe I'll do documentaries, because I love documentaries. I love, I took some documentary filmmaking class that I loved, and so I thought, you know what I'd be really good at is being up in a tree and just waiting all day long with the bait out for the bird,

and waiting for that moment and capturing it. I thought I have all the skill set for that. I can go a long time without eating. I love nature. Like the idea of just being the solitude of waiting for their shots all day kind of appealed to me. And so that was my goal. And then I thought, I thought, okay, well, these surf films are kind of perfect.

They're basically documentaries. And it's in this world I'm already a part of, so it'll be my practice. And it was actually, I would think I was already a part of so it'll be my practice. And it was actually I think I was the first step of making surf films was the perfect first step and I was on my way to do that and then the music thing kind of took over which was fine and I ended up loving it so much and realizing I liked it even more. I always felt like filmmaking is the best job I could have and then when I the music never felt like a job it was always a hobby and when I got to do that for my job, it was a no-brainer

just to follow that wave as far as I would go. Yeah. You mentioned loving nature. You think growing up in Hawaii impacted your love of nature. In other words, if you grew up in a city, might you not be connected in the way that you're connected? Yeah, hard to have or no, but I think so. I think growing up in Hawaii and

just the experiences I had and the way my parents were or the way my dad was, he was kind of, that anti-social. He was a really nice person. He loved people, but he also, he was pretty eccentric and he loved getting away from everything. He sailed to Hawaii when he was 21 years old or 20 on a 27-foot boat by himself. Wow. You know, he left California. He always joked around. That's how he learned how to sail. Like he knew how to sail, but he definitely wasn't ready to sail to Hawaii by himself at that point, but he left and he did it. Was he from California? He's from California. He grew up in like South Bay area. Manhattan Beach. And they had my oldest brother at the time.

He was one. So my mom flew over with him, and they met him over there, and fingers crossed. He'd make it, and he made it, you know, so then we never left. But yeah, so he would always take us on trips. He was always on boats. He loved boats, and he loved to get away to places that were kind of far from society, and was always on boats, he loved boats, and he loved to get away to places

that were kind of far from society, and it always come back. But I remember a lot of times wondering, because sometimes you leave for a month or two to help somebody sail a boat from, like a lot of times people like to sail a boat downwind, but they don't want it, and they certainly have to go back upwind to get at home.

And so he would be somebody that people would hire to help get their boat home. Like with the downwinders, you would stand up battling. So he would do that sometimes, and he would be somebody that people would hire to help get their boat home. Like with the downwinders, you'd stand up battling. So he would do that sometimes and he would be gone for a while and I remember as a kid being like, oh, I wonder if dad's coming home. But my mom always seemed like he was coming. But it would be a month or two that I wouldn't see him sometimes, not all the time, but just from time.

And I think he kind of needed that, you know, like little breaks from, and then you come back kind of ready to participate again. Joyful participation. What was the music playing in the house that you grew up in? Lot of Rade Charles. Like I remember as a kid. It seemed like Rade Charles and Aritha Franklin, Kat Stevens, Paul Simon, Beatles, and Bob Marley, things like that. Was there a piano or guitar in the house? No, yeah, guitar for my older brother. My parents, we had a record player and a record collection.

And music would always be on. And a lot of comedy records and stuff too, you know, we'd always like stand-up comedy. Was it more your mom or your dad's musical taste? Or were both? I think both. Yeah, my mom liked the Reath of Franklin a lot. And Tina Turner in the 80s and stuff. was more your mom or your dad's musical taste or were both. I think both. Yeah, my mom liked to read the Franklin a lot.

And Tina Turner in the 80s and stuff. I remember that always being on. And then I had two older brothers that were 10 and seven years older than me. So like they were brothers, but they're almost like uncles, you know, because I was so much younger. And they just seemed like the coolest in the world to me. And so they were in the music.

And different types of music a little bit. Because the oldest was from the 70s and the coolest in the world to me. And so they were in the music and different types of music a little bit because the oldest was from the 70s and little more in the rock. So like his stuff was black Sabbath and queen. And I can remember he had his own record collection. And then I got this little plastic record player, like the little kid one, but it actually worked and stuff. And he would sometimes let me have a few of his.

So like, I remember like I used to have five records over in my next to my bunk, you know, and it was like minute work, queen, that may have a few of his. So I remember, like I used to have five records over in my next of my bunk, you know, and it was like minute work, queen, kiss, and black Sabbath, we're kind of the records that the imagery I can remember were on those records. And then the middle brother, where he's like older than me, but the one in the middle, he was in a more 80s stuff. So then like a lot of violent films, and he would make me cassettes. And I had one that was the whole first violent films record on one side and it was the doors on the other side. And that

was like something I always listened to those two. It was just the auto flip on my walk man and stuff, you know, those were early records for me too. Did you ever listen to music when surfing? In college, it's funny, you say, because I made my own little, I put some like duct tape around the headphones so that water couldn't get in the little holes. Then I had a waterproof, it was one of those yellow, Sony, water resistant, I think, but I figured good enough. I think I even duct taped that a little. I put in a ziplock bag and I figured out how to make my own little kind of water resistant.

Not only Ivo's longboarding, it was a day where I knew that I could pretty much get to the lineup without having to dunk a wave. And I might fall off, but hopefully not, it was pretty small. And then I'd put music on James Brown, usually. I had a James Brown cassette that I love surfing to. And so, yeah, I used to, in college, at the little point breaks in Santa Barbara. It was a way to make it extra fun. Cool.

Have you ever done Santa paddling? A little bit, not a whole lot, but yeah, it's in the summertime, you kind of, we're on the North Shore, you got to find things to do because the waves get flat for about three months. So saline, stand-up paddling, you know, just snorkeling and that kind of stuff. You were getting into body surfing? Yeah, I love body surfing. We all, I mean, that's something we did quite a bit. And again, on that whole thing of meeting your heroes, the best body surfer in a world

Mark Cunningham, he lived next door to me. So I was on the mark. He was a little older than my brothers, like by a few years. But he was just the definition of cool, weird kids. So he was always around. And somebody I still talk to quite a bit and keep in touch with and still inspiration But yeah, so he we'd go body surf with him and He would never really give us tips where we could just watch what he was doing and try to do that

You know, and it's it's kind of the purest I think at some point when we figured out you could ride away without any board or any You know some of my friends really good without even the swim fins on. I always like having swim fins myself, but they've rostovic from Australia. He's amazing body surfer and he goes, he likes no fins. Just that's the purest. He's got nothing. He's this body surfing with just the body. Yes. I'm about it.

That's so much fun. I love just feels so good. It feels so good. The way the water passes over your body feels so good. And there's certain waves that are kind of, they work better for it. It's like if the waves turning inside out and it's not peeling too fast, when they peel too fast,

you kind of need the board and the fins on the bottom of the board to be able to project yourself down the line. But certain waves, when they curl over and that the white wash inside, it kind of comes out of the tube and you can kind of ride on top of that to come out and it's, I love those type of ways for body surfing. Do you think you're making films or surfing or music? Is it all the same to you or are they really different?

They're good question. I have to think about it. Surfing can be a lot of different things. Surfing can be really light, where it's just about being with a bunch of friends. Like sometimes I'll see waves aren't good at all, but I'll look out and I'll recognize two or three of my friends that I haven't seen in a few weeks,

and I'll just want to go out and sit and talk. We might get one wave in an hour, but it's really about sitting out and line up and just talking to each other and catching up. So it's like a social thing sometimes. Sometimes it's a solitude and I just need time by myself. And it's like the exaggerated version of it or the better version is when you're on a sailboat

and you can see the land and the land keeps getting smaller and smaller and at some point when you're able to look and all around you just horizon and no land. I love the way that feels and it's, you get that on a sailboat. But you get a little light version of that of the waves are big enough and you're kind of far enough off the coast and you look back in the land feels a little further away. It's like a reset for me. It's maybe a small version of what I was talking about with my dad being able to get away from society a little bit

even if it's only for two or three hours or if the waves are really good and you stay out for a while. But I love floating off in the ocean for a while. So that's the deeper level of it, the solitude you get. And if the waves are really good, you get really pulled into it where it's just, it's like a craft you've worked out your whole life that you don't have to think about anymore. Like sometimes I'll see a friend riding a wave

as I'm paddling out and the thing I I'll see them do just seems like magic. You know, they'll get totally upside down as they're hitting the lip of the wave and then coming back down. And I'll think, how in the world they just do that? And then on your next ride without thinking, you're doing the same thing. But it's all muscle memory and it's all just this flow that you get in. And so that's a really beautiful state to get into is to do something that feels almost like a magic trick, like something you shouldn't be able to do, but also in your body's

doing it. Yeah. Does that ever come up when you're writing? Writing. Sometimes, I guess there's two parts of writing for me is like I like what Joseph Campbell talks about about how a myth is a dream for a culture and a dream is an individual myth But they're kind of the same thing and so for me there's two parts to most songs not off There's no rules, but like I'll find I'll start a song and I have no idea what it's about usually and there's usually one line And that's kind of the myth part where it's, I don't know where

it came from and it's either something I've heard somebody say or maybe it's just echo in my mind. It tends to end up being the chorus and for some reason, and I'll get a lot of those, I don't stick with all of them. There might be 30 and one of them will work, but it's like, the song structure becomes sort of asking myself, why is this sticking around in my mind and why is it keep echoing all day long? And then the verses become trying to answer that question in a way.

And so part of it, I'm not sure where it comes from and it's kind of that thing. And the other part is very intentional and I'll sit down and try to answer the question. And it's usually later at night when it's quiet around the house and I'll pick up an acoustic guitar and intentionally write and think and struggle. And that part's more work. That's the craft part. The craft part.

But it's like, and you need some of that, I think, you know. But some of the ones that really connect, especially like just kind of goofy love songs, so I'll come really quick. So some of my songs, like I have songs that are, I literally have one song that was a reaction to my wife not responding when I'd stayed up all night writing this other song.

So I played her a bit of it, and she kind of didn't seem to even care. And she has to hear them all the time. I kind of joke because she's really sweet, and she's like my editor. She gives me feedback all the time on the songs. But this one morning she didn't really respond and I wrote this other one that was just joking and I said, you hardly even notice when I try to show you the song is meant to keep

you from doing what you're supposed to. And then she turned around and she's like, that's a good one though. And then it was so I was like, all right, so I kind of just worked on that for a minute. And it's I have that part of it. I have songs I write at 2 in the morning and I'm thinking about the way to the world. And then there's other songs that are just to make my wife laugh. And they're both valid, they're both music. And they're both parts of what I like to do. So anyway, some songs like that, they come really quick.

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Have you always written songs the same way? Is the process always been the same? You know, I think it's interesting after you do eight or nine records and then you're able to sort of look at them and analyze it the process. I think when I did my first album, and I think this is a case for most people, I had like 20 songs to choose from

because I've been writing for, you know, I guess I'd only been writing for a few years but it was just flowing out and there was all these ideas. And then, so you choose 12 of those. And when I did my second record, there was already kind of seven things floating around and I kind of built off of that. I think after I got my third album done, that was the first time where I was like, well, I have no songs.

Like, no, it's, if I do a fourth, I'm going to have to start from scratch and start writing. And then the process became, I became more aware of the process. Before that, I didn't even think about it, which is always happening. And then I started thinking a little bit like inhaling and exhaling. It's like you can't constantly exhale. You have to inhale. And so, you know, you hear terms like when people would say things like writers block. I think the very first time I didn't have any songs, I kind of like consider that idea,

which I think is almost old naive is like, oh, do I have writer's block? But all I was, I had to really, I was just, I had to inhale for a while. I had to take the source back in. You know, I had to just read books and experience life and not even, sometimes I don't pick up a guitar for months. And I think when that used to happen I almost felt guilty. I was like, oh, should I be practicing or something? You know, but now I kind of enjoy the process when I know, oh, it's time to inhale. And then find like a little melody and I'll either record that on my phone these days

or back, I used to have a little four track track recorder and I'd get the ideas down on those. Those are all floating around and then at some point my wife usually kind of helps me when she seems like you have an album worth of ideas, you know, around now. And so then we kind of sit down and intentionally make a list and we don't have names for them yet but I got a call this one this. So she really helps me a lot. And she was actually, since we were 18 years old, we've known each other. And she saw me struggling on my very first ones and trying to do it. And so it's always been a fun process for us to, when all the potentials

left in the song, you know, it's just the beginning. Yeah, it's so cool that you had, you found this a partner in life and in working and everything. Oh yeah, beautiful. That was really luck. I mean, both of us were lucky. We've been partners through it all. Do you write songs with the idea of I'm writing songs because I'm gonna make an album? Or do you write songs just because you write songs?

I think just the right songs, but I think it would also be foolish to not identify that I know that there's that potential. But I do like to convince myself, and I think I'm pretty good at doing it, that I might not do another album. And I won't do another album until I know I have enough songs that feel like an album, and then I'll start thinking about the side of actually putting it out. We've always, I've been lucky since the very first album,

I had somebody give me the advice of just sign a one record deal. In fact, then I remember thinking, why seems like I'd want to make a lot of these things, right? And they were really adamant that that was the one thing they wanted me to do. And so I got lucky because that ended up being a really good thing in my case, because we've always done one record deals through the whole thing. And mostly for that thing of not feeling like I need to write for a upcoming album. Every time I've finished, I've told myself, that might be the last one.

It's not like a dramatic thing. It's just like, I'm only going to make one of that enough stuff around me. And the beauty of that is you don't feel any pressure. Yeah, no pressure. Which allows the work to be that much better. If you're under the gun, you're going to make concessions that you wouldn't make. Yeah, no pressure. Which allows the work to be that much better. If you're under the gun, you're gonna make concessions that you wouldn't make. If you're free.

Yeah, definitely. I do need to set a deadline at some point, but it's only when I know there's enough potential on all these ideas that I've made a list of. And I know that there's... Yeah, there's something that you really know. There's an album in there. There's an album in there.

You just have to refine it and finish it. But I won't finish it until I say, okay, the album's going to come out on this day, and then we go backwards. Okay, that means I got to turn in the mixes this one. This is usually like two years or a year before. And so I'll know, okay, we're going to record in the fall. And we usually record for like kind of off and off. We'll do like a few weeks and take a break and a few weeks. And it might take two months for the recording process, but I still will give myself another month. If I don't like anything we did,

that we could go back in and start over and I'll kind of do all that backtracking, but I need all those ideas to be able to commit to that deadline. Over the course of eight or nine albums, how much has the recording process changed? Not a whole lot. I still recorded my garage.

The very first album, we did it a place called Grandmaster in LA, did it with JP Pluñe, who was working with Ben Harper, and he was his manager and producer at the time. And JP was a fan of our surf movies, so he used to come in there and sit in the editing bay with us. And my friend Emmett Maloyoy who co-manages me, my wife and my friend Emmett are my managers and back then I didn't need a manager. He was just my friend and he uh, and he's a surf film maker as well. Yeah, so he was the editor on the films. I was the

cinematographer and our friend Chris Maloy on thicker than water Water, he was basically the main producer. He kind of like got the trips together, got the surfers, figured out how we're gonna do it all. And I would load the camera for him sometimes too, and he would get some great water shots as well. So we made those Thicker than Water in September sessions.

I made with Kelly Slater as one of the producers, kind of pulling it together, and Emmett again was the editor. So Emmett handed JP a cassette tape. He was kind of managing for me back then. He was just an ambitious friend that saw the potential on it all, you know. And when I say potential, I just mean

that he liked sharing my stuff. He was always sweet about being, have you heard this? It's really cool, you know. He had passed it along. And so JP heard it and he actually called me and said, hey, I think you could actually make an album. It was one of the first people that even put that idea of really this could be more than

just my four track recordings. I hadn't really even thought about it. So I got to go on the studio. I think we went in for six days for the first album and recorded for six days and then mixed for another week or something and it was done. And that was the only record I did that wasn't in my garage. So once we, that album kind of went crazy for us compared to what I thought it was going to do, it ended up being a big album.

Did you really been playing live before recording that album? I've been playing live, but just in a few clubs in between San Diego and Santa Barbara. It was called the Mint and LA. We used to play there. I was one spot we kind of come back to. And during that time, it started getting more and more crowded. At first, it was mostly Emmett's family. He had so much family in LA and he would just bring them all down. And I think when people would show up, they'd feel like, oh, this is happening. Look all these people, you know, kind of had that little lucky thing happen. And so then at some point, that started selling out. And I was around the same time. We had one song off of our surf film called F Stop Blues that I'd written. It became kind of like a song, a

surfers started knowing from the surf film. And it was funny to think it was a real slow, peaceful song, but that was the most requested song at our shows at first, because they didn't know any other ones. So that, I guess, before we went on tour of Ben Harper, when the first album came out and then Ben invited us to go on tour with him, I had only played small little clubs between Santa Barbara and San Diego. And I remember telling Ben, I don't think I'm really ready to do a real tour and he was so sweet He's always been like an older brother who was like nobody's ever ready and the thing is is I get the choose And you're like let's do this can be fun man, and so he brought me out and it was I Can't be so nervous. I mean I felt like I was gonna pass out for a walk on stage for those first shows

But he was always so his audience was kind of a me. I got really lucky because he had a real, an audience was really listening to music and really thoughtful and kind. And so they would, even the first shows, there was a lot of people there, it wasn't packed. And then it was kind of the beginning of when people could communicate on the internet, too. It goes mostly like on chat, like on a website, they go to a chat room, you know, people could talk But somehow during that first tour we've been people started saying you should show up early enough to check the opening act and by the end of the tour

starting pretty much full by the time we play and What I thought was just gonna be one summer getting open for Ben Harper. Yeah, by the end of it there was People that started kind of putting themselves in place and offering to be, hey, I could be your booking agent and this kind of thing and it all just kind of fell in real easy. It was a lot of work and it's a fine line between how to explain it in the sense of I felt like every step of the way just kept moving forward in a really easy way.

But there was a lot of half four clubs in the beginning and there was a lot of like driving ourselves through the night and having to decide decide like hey we're really going to go for this you know. It was like a mixture of kind of following this natural wave but also working really hard and like showing up in every town and doing an end-store and visiting the radio station and doing all these things in the day. But that all seemed really nice to me. It felt like a way of like the end-stores, you could play music with just the acoustic guitar and have all

these people that already had the albums come down and get to meet. It was really fun at that stage, you know, just to get to meet all these people that were into the music. And it was an exciting time at a lot of work. It was spending a lot of time. I didn't have kids at the time, so I didn't mind at all. It was fun. Well, how did you meet Ben? Ben was through JP who was a fan of our surf films and then JP invited me to a show and I got to meet Ben backstage.

And then that first time I had met him as we first met, he sang the melody to one of my songs. You know, like he had been listening to the music earlier in a day and a blue in my mind. I was such a fan, I was such a fan of his music and the fact that he had heard it and remembered the melody. And he ended up playing a slide guitar on that song. He came into the studio and laid it down. But it was like, it took me a long time to get past being a fan of Ben and being like, now when we see each other, it's like an old friend, it's like, true, like all the things he's done for me,

I feel like he's an old brother. Cause he's done so much for me and he's been so sweet through the whole thing. But at the time, I was just like every time I'd see him, I'd be kind of star struck for a while. You know, I was like, took me a minute to get past it. But that was the first tour I ever did. And I got to see before they go on stage as a band, they'd come together. And they would talk about how much they appreciated the people who had come to the show and that they were getting to

play music for people that night and that they hope they'd all get home safe and then there was times I'd be with Ben and the show would be over and this one-time particular member he said hey come with me we're gonna go to this kids house and he had gotten a letter about this kid who got hit by a car and couldn't come to the show and he was in like a body cast. And it was midnight, it was after the show was over, went to his kids' house and Ben went and played a little concert for the kid, you know. You're incredible.

This before everybody had phones and that kind of stuff, it wasn't like he went to do it and then put it on social media. Like nobody ever knew about it except for the five people that were with them watching. And it was just seen the way the relationship he had with his fans was really cool. That was a nice blueprint for me to be on my very first experience with how to do it.

You talk about Ben's ritual before going on stage of getting together with the band and Sounds like setting an intention for the show and being grateful. Do you have any rituals that you practice in life? Do you have any rituals that you practice in life? A big hug. It's like the one thing our band always does. We all hug each other right before we go on. One hug each. You know, it's really funny. It's like we've been together for 23 years now as a band, I guess. And same guys, I'm lucky. I got, there's three other guys in the band. And we've, the drummer was the first one. And we used to do gigs kind of like an acoustic white stripe. So it was just acoustic guitar and drums and the little clubs and then the bass player came and then the piano player was an old college friend that we used to

be in bands together before I ever really kind of had a shot at doing the music thing back in college but then he joined the band a few albums in on, on the keyboards. And so, yeah, it's mostly given a big hug before we go on stage and just, you know, have fun out there kind of thing to each other. There's nothing very intense, but like, we can't go on without all giving a quick embrace. You know, like it just happens, everybody goes around hugs each other and we go on. Because if the day's been busy and this the first time we're seeing each other, which is usually not the case, but there are days where it's like, hey, let's not sound check today because we're in this beautiful spot. Monitors will be fine. Let's just go up there and we'll tweak them on the first

couple songs and everybody wants to go spend time with friends or family. And so sometimes we won't see each other tell right more about the walk on, but usually we have a little backstage room. 90% of the time we go back in jam for about an hour before we go on. We're really lucky because the crew is the same thing. backstage room, 90% of the time we go back and jam for about an hour before we go on. We're really lucky because the crew is the same thing. Our crew has been the same people. The guy who mixes my sound, he used to mix it when the clubs were half full.

He's been with us the whole time. So he still has the right to be like, oh man, you guys suck tonight. He knows it. Well, I'll have a laugh and be like, yeah, I know. Or he's a lot of times tells us, hey, that was one of the most beautiful ones I've seen. You guys did great. He's a sweetheart. But he's kind of like a Han Solo character.

He's the reluctant hero. But the crew is really sweet because they always set us up a backstage room. We don't always soundcheck. We're not a real loud band. And we have a lot of fun sort of sometimes. Like, when the mix is a little different, it kind of helps. But then I can just quickly look over

and we have all signals about like a tie down or voice up and piano up and that kind of stuff. And we can usually make those changes in the first song or two and it's fun. And in that way you don't gotta be to the venue like in the afternoon, you get to kind of spend the day out in the place you're at, and it's funny how many times it'll be where like people all meet that day, then I'll see in the front, you know, and Deloves requested a song and I can put it in the place you're at and it's funny how many times it'll be where like people meet that day then I'll see in the front you know and so they'll have

requested a song and I can put it in the set and we'll have time to go learn and stuff and so so I guess the only real ritual we have is like a little jam before we go on usually and I always tell my kids my kids travel with us and stuff and they get to see the whole thing go down and they're all they love music and I'm glad they get to see that I always tell my hey the best part of the day is the jam like the shows sometimes go great and they're all, they love music. And I'm glad they get to see that. I always tell them, hey, the best part of the day is the jam. Like the shows sometimes go great. Sometimes you just got to get through them

because they're not, you know, for whatever reason, every night can't be the best, but it's like, the jam is always good. We always get to have fun in there. Like sometimes the kids will jump on with us and play something and they get to see the crowds come in and all that part of it is just a byproduct of getting to do something that you love.

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keto-friendly, and great tasting. Minerals are the stuff of life. Lights for sugar-free, keto-friendly, and great tasting. Minerals are the stuff of life. So visit drinklmnt.com slash tetra. And stay salty with Element Electric Life. LMNT. How different are the shows from night to night for you? There can be times, there can be a little groundhogs there, you know, if you have four shows

in a row, but in general, I'm really lucky because the guys in the band being there, they're really good friends. We got a lot of inside jokes. Like somebody will just do one little thing, like make a gesture on the piano that we know, like I'll look over at him, he'll be smiling at me and he'll be trying to wake me up sometimes. And then the piano player, he sings a lot, he does a lot of the, everybody in the band sings

and we'll do harmonies and stuff, but the piano player does most of the harmonies. And he'll take the lead on a few spots. And we've known each other since we were 18 years old, born on the same day in 1975. His name's Zach, my name's Jack. And he knows me almost better than anybody where he can see when I need help carry in the show,

and he'll step it up a notch for me. Or he'll do something to make me laugh. Like there was one show that was going, it was so quiet. And quiet can be good when you want to play the quiet songs, but we were kind of trying to put on more of a upbeat set, and this crowd just wouldn't do anything. And it was so quiet you hear a pin drop. And at some point, it was so quiet that no matter what somebody said, you could hear it.

And somebody said, I want your babies in the front row. And I said, I'm not going to give them to you. And I'm glad you think it's funny. Nobody else in the crowd even laughed. And then, but Zach over on the piano, he goes, he goes, man, his real rump old stills can vibe around here. You know, because stealing the babies and stuff. And I couldn't, like the next two or three songs,

like I couldn't stop laughing. I couldn't even get my lyrics out because I thought it was the funniest thing I ever heard. And part of the funniest thing is like, in class when you get the giggles with your friend, and nobody else thinks what you think is funny, but you can't stop laughing in the awkwardness that you're the only two that think is funny.

So we have that sometimes. I'm near on stage. Yeah, we're on stage, but looking back, it's like. That must amplify it, I imagine. It's one of the shows we talk about the most. So anyways, I'm lucky to have guys like that in a band that if it's the best show I ever have, I feel lucky to share it with close friends

that we get to talk about all the time. But if it's the worst show I ever have, I also feel lucky that it's friends that we had this experience. You know, it's like, oh man, can you remember that one or this one or the other? That time this happened. To get the share of that with friends, I feel really lucky for that.

How different are the audiences in different parts of the world? You know, I used to think more, and I used to put that on the audience, but now I realize we can do a lot, like sometimes it signals we send that'll allow people or give them the chance to get up and dance or those kind of things. And sometimes you're in a seated venue

and everybody's sitting, and they don't want to block the person in front of them. And so sometimes if you say, hey, either way, but if you want to dance, I'm giving you permission, everybody get sitting and they don't want to block the person in front of them. And so sometimes if you say, hey, either way, but if you want to dance, I'm giving you permission. Everybody get up and dance. Other nights you'll do that and a couple of people will realize, okay, let's change the set. It's more of an acoustic night. People just want to kind of chill and listen to lyrics.

So we've learned to read crowds better, but I guess it can be sometimes places where I remember the show being one way we get back there in this opposite You know, it's like the group of individuals that are there that night make the show up really is it really different Would you say from night to night? Just the nature of how the crowd reacts. Yes, and no like if we're playing Like we do a lot of outside amphitheaters And if there's like a standing pit in the front and then a seated area and a lawn in the back Those can feel pretty similar because you got your dance and crew up front front and then a seated area and a lawn in the back. Those can feel pretty similar, because you got your dance and crew up front

and then you can like, sometimes you'll start noticing are people sitting, or they stand and you know, the next one, it helps us gauge like which way to go on the set. But Brazil's always like crazy. Brazil's always really fun. And now we know going in there, it's like you put on a party set

and it's like they're gonna sing along with you They're gonna start singing the melodies even when you're not singing words. They'll start singing like the melody lines and stuff So you can kind of always guarantee Brazil's gonna be nuts, you know, it's so fun. We love playing there. What was the first music? Growing up that was your music not your older brothers music or your parents' music or you felt like this is mine. Yeah, Fugazi, I remember driving. Gazi's incredible. It's just incredible. I mean, literally I was driving to school

and we used to get a radio station on our side of the island. There was two, I think, back then. We'd have K2H, which was the college station. And then there was Radio Free Hawaii for a while. And I forget which one of those two it was on but I was driving to school and there was this one zone where the radio would cut out and it was coming up but when when waiting room came on the radio and the first time I heard that song I pulled the car over because I didn't want to get to this zone where the radio would cut out

and I want I had sat there and I made sure to listen until they said because I couldn't believe this sound I was hearing And it was at that moment that I knew I had to go home and make a band You know, it was like hearing waiting room and we were all playing me and my best friend we were playing the two of us We'd sit around and show each other Jimmy Hendrick songs and like little licks in the my bedroom But it was just two guitars and he was in the car with me and we were listening and we're like, all right, who could play drums? From there, the rest of the car ride was like, we know any bass players, and we had, and sure enough, like a week later, we had a band, it was one guy we just made, played drums. He was kind of trying to learn guitar too, we're like, sorry, your drums, because we already got two guitar players, and then we had a guy who wanted to play

bass, we got lucky, and we had pretty much a Fugazis who got us into it, but then we had a guy who wanted to play bass, we got lucky. And we had pretty much a Fugazis who got us into it, but then we got really in a minor threat because we realized it was easier to sound like minor threat. We could learn those songs quicker, you know. Like Fugazis was a little complex for us still, but it was something to aspire to be. But the minor threat, we were pretty much a minor threat cover band. And then we started writing a few originals. Most he was the guy singing. We had all singing backups, but it was a lot of fun. We would practice a lot more than we'd actually played gigs.

I think we played four backyards on like graduation and stuff, but it was, that was it, just that feeling of getting together with the gang and being in a garage and making music. It was, you know, everything. But Fugazi, yeah, Fugazi is the one though. Incredible. The thing that was so lucky about Stumbling on Up and it was like, it was this energy of friends making music and something that a teenager could do and what you wanted to rock

on like a tar. But then the lyrics, like hearing those lyrics of like, you are not what you own and those kind of things of that age, and I really informed my songwriting as I started trying to make right songs. It was even though I started getting into other stuff, and it wasn't like I was only listening to punk, it was part of what I liked, but I loved listening like Kat Stevens, and I would sit in my room

and try to learn Beatles songs and things like that. But together with the friends, it was that energy. It was punk rock, but we were all wearing board It was that energy. You know, it was like it was punk rock But we were all wearing board shorts and slippers still, you know, it was really funny little scene in Hawaii That punk rock ethos that do it yourself ethos Seems like your band has had that the whole time as well. You're in the music industry, but you're not really part of it Yeah, yeah, I've gotten lucky but that I think Big part of that is the partnership with my wife, and it's things would come along. She was always really good at someone

like the early contracts or stuff, because I didn't want to think about that stuff. Most artists don't, and I was lucky to have somebody who could at least look at it and she would read through and be like, I don't know. If somebody's going to give you that much money up front, they're also going to want a lot from you. And so, like we kind of always had this thing. Like you said, it was really easy to have a partner. Somebody to kind of sit around or take a long walk with and discuss it. And we were really happy. Like it wasn't like we had a dream of what we wanted, like wanted to be. We already had happiness in our little apartments where we were living. And we kind of would be like, like wanted to be, we already had happiness in our little apartments, wherever we were living, and we kind of would be like, hey, we don't want much more

in this, but we can make this keep going. This is pretty cool. So we had this thing of like not needing the big advances and stuff, but just needing control, you know. So it was really just a thing of flipping all that, being like, all right, like, we don't need that, but here's what we do want. And we would kind of just write in like that one record deal. You don't get to see anything and tell us done. You don't get to hear anything and tell us done. And unfortunately, you do kind of need to plan ahead and think of that stuff,

because if you don't, you might like the idea of all that stuff, but contractually you're held to do these other things, you know? Somebody can come in the studio and say, like, oh, I don't like that, change this. And so we never had any of that. We just always had control of it all. And so even though it grew to be bigger

than I ever thought it would, we maintained that control and sort of the ability to scrap everything if I wasn't like in the direction, you know? Right, I'm the same with band members, the same with the crew. That always feels like you have your own thing. Yeah, yeah, appreciate that. I mean, it feels more homemade, you know?

Yeah, and I think, yeah, I think it is. And I, when my wife, my best friend, or my managers, they also, all the choices are always more like, what's best for our family and our friendships and things like that. And it's, you know, success is, it's fun when it goes well. It's like, we always used to think about like, planting a little garden and it's like,

you plant the seed and you see if it can grow and you kind of water a little bit. You go play an in store, you visit a radio station, you see if you can go back and play a bigger club in that town. And like, those kind of things were fun. Like, I think sometimes people like get turned off from thinking like, oh, I don't want to think of any of the business stuff. But for us, it was all, the homemade thing made the business kind of fun. We started our own little record label on the second album on.

And we were able to sort of look at the business more as a garden and just see if it could grow things and how it would work. So it was always a lot of fun. And just getting to surround ourselves with friends, like the personality's always had to work on tour, the band, all those kind of things, like people bringing their own families around and just making a fuel homemade

and was always really important to us. He said earlier when you start a song, you don't know where it comes from. And then there'll be something that you like. Tell me more about that. Trying to think of an example, like, I had this, well, sometimes it's just the melody. Done.

And then I'll start filling those in. And a lot of times it'll be when I'll start a song with no intention of it being a real song. I have a song on my newest album called Don't Look Now. And I ended up liking it quite a bit, but in the beginning it was one of those joke songs. My son, every day, would talk about, there's a rooster and it's living in this tree right outside his bedroom and it'll wake him up really early. And so like a breakfast before he'd be leaving for school, we'd be sitting there and he'd say, hey, dad, think he'd give me a gun. And I'd

be like, I'm not going to get you a gun. And he'd be like, all right, well, I got a flying slingshot. I got killed this rooster, you know? And when I told him, I was like, that's up to you, but I was like, you know, if you kill it, you're gonna have to deal with the kill you and you done. Like you got to deal with the body and everything. And it became this like funny thing where we were talking about this rooster.

And I don't know if he like really wanted to kill it, or if, because he seemed pretty pissed, like every morning, it was waking up really early. So he was probably really thinking about killing it. And then I started thinking about what it means to kill something, even though I was kind of joking with my kid. So I was sitting around later and I had this song

and it was like, I know that every morning my son says, someday I'm gonna kill that rooster with the gun that you won't give me if you kill it, you're gonna have to deal with the killing you're done. That was the original idea And I remember the melody words though. Yeah, great, but those words never made it in the song Yeah, yeah, but great. Oh, yeah, thanks great phrasing. I do that live now sometimes when we play that song I'll just sing that line in it live You know, so would you say music usually comes before lyrics for you?

Usually, I'd say usually, but there's a lot of times that I'll have a line or two, I'll write down somewhere, or that'll be around in my mind, and then I'll try them with melodies, like those sometimes come independent. And then I'll think they're good, and I'll try them, and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. It's so much to me about when the melody and the sentiment of the lyrics meet and the chord changes underneath it. It's like I've never, I love the idea of poetry. I've never felt like what I write as poetry. It's like, it doesn't work for me until I hear the combination of the chord change and

the melody and the lyrics together. But I do write a lot, like I'll write things, but I never can read it as a poem, and then feel like a work on its own. It's like I've always thought of it melodically. I heard last thoughts on Woody Guthrie by Bob Dylan when I was a teenager, and it's a poem he reads out loud at a live concert. It's really sweet.

He talks about how they asked him the right of few words about what would he go through him into him as what he got through his dying. And so he said he couldn't just write a few several seven pages and he's like, I'd like to read it now and he reads it. And it's so good, the way it stumbles on itself and the lines, you can't tell where the beginnings and the ends are. I just love the way that sounded. And so a lot of times I'll write things that almost feel like that to me, and then I'll try them with music later. But his is like, really

good. It's when your head gets twisted or your mind grows numb, you think you're too old, too young, too smart, too dumb. You're lagging behind, you're losing your pace, and the slow motion crawl of life's busy race. And it's just the way that it goes on for like five, seven minutes, you know, it's so good. It's all about hope. Where do you find hope? Then he gives like a page or two on where you're not going to find hope. And then he starts to discuss him where you can find hope and how it's different for

everyone. Anyways, that was really, I think, important for me to hear when I was about 16 of just the lyrical flow gave me the idea of how to not let the one of the measure be you don't have to end there. It could carry over, you know, and freed up your phrase. Yeah, freed up the phrasing quite a bit. Get the point across. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of, I mean, a lot of hip-hop stuff too. I got love the flow of most deaf and in different people that, that I think later I started hearing that and a lot of hip-hop, but when I was

16, that Dylan song really was it for me. Welcome to the House of Macadamias. Macadamias are a delicious superfood. Sustainably sourced directly from farmers. sustainably sourced directly from farmers. Macadamias, a rare source of Omega-7, linked to collagen regeneration, enhanced weight management, and better fat metabolism. Macadamias, art healthy and bring boosting fats. Macadamias, paleo-friendly,

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Coconut white chocolate and blueberry white chocolate. Visit houseofmacadamias.com. Slash Tetra. The Last Two Abums I've kind of started on my own, built the tracks, and then some of those I played everything on them, and then some I'll have the band come back in. The first seven albums we did as a band, and so exactly what you said, I'd kind of start writing. We start playing. Sometimes I would be done with lyrics, but we start getting a sound together as a band,

and I'd get recordings, sometimes even finish a third verse once we had a recording. Now the last few albums have kind of approached them a little different. Partly circumstances, like during the last few years, there was like a few times where Blake Mills and I got together and it was just, the only people we'd see were each other and my family and kind of be pretty isolated during the whole pandemic. And it was like, uh, so we were still being able to make music and work on things. And then some of the tracks, I'd like to them just how they were. Other ones, I had the band come in and we kind of redid parts. So it could be any, any different way. But I've done a lot of Blake and I, Blake Mills and I

on this last album started every song just facing each other. And a lot of times it'd be as I was teaching him the song or like the chord changes. And sometimes he'd give me an idea of like, I'll try this instead. But as we were rehearsing it through, we'd be recording. And then sometimes it's that take where it's the first one

that he's kind of learned it, but not too well yet, and we would end up keeping. But we'd always, we'd be committed to those two guitars, because we'd be three feet apart from each other. We'd have a microphone towards both of us, but the bleed between the two, there might be one song on the out more we'd turn his mic off, but you could still hear the ghost of it. But in general, we would start with those two guitars, see if that was enough and then

build from there. Sometimes we'd just go in and we would then play like a percussion track. We'd find that we were racing to the instruments. And I feel like Blake and I, it was a learning curve at first. We didn't know each other before we started. We decided to spend a week together and just see if we liked it before we even told anybody else. I mean, again, all my managers stuff my best friends, my wife,

but like, so they all knew, but we didn't talk about any kind of a record or like thing like that. We just say, let's get together for a week as you happen. And it's, I think we both admit that we weren't sure after the first week. Yeah. And then we went home, not because we didn't like each other as people, but I think both of us had like a pretty strong

idea of how we do things. And we both had to sort of bend a little bit. Like he had a thing of never making a rough mix at the end of the day to listen to, because he didn't want people to hear it before it was ready. And I have a thing where like every day I want to rough mix, and when I'm having dinner with the family, or friends over for barbecue, I put it on, and I'll tell everybody, hey, these are all like such close friends, they don't care about my music.

These are guys I grew up with, and I'll just say, hey, I'm putting this on for me, you don't feel like you got to listen to it. This is just so I know if it works or not in this setting. And I'm used to that, Blake's used to be in like, no, no, no, like, don't make rough mixes too early. Take a break from it. And both are totally valid. They're both ways to work. And so we had to kind of like learn when was the right time

to bend to each other. And so the same way, like on the instruments, to be funny, it'd be like, oh, I got this idea for the drums. And I'd run over the drum set and then he'd be like, oh, no, what about this? And we were, I think in the very beginning, the ego was getting the way of being like, I'd have an idea for the bass, he'd have an idea.

And then slowly we started being able, and I can remember times where both of us did it, of being like, your idea is better, I like that. You know, let's go with that. And so once we got to that point, where we knew both of us wanted to make the best record we could, and just really listened to the ideas. Don't come into it thinking this is my honor, that's yours.

It was great. And I loved working with them. We have a great relationship and keep in touch now. And so it was a lot of fun. But that's how we built this one, which is the two of us on guitars and then slowly building percussion or if it needed bass or keys. Those have vocals at that time, you would do them as instrumental and then overdub vocals.

Usually as instrumentals and over the, or I'd whisper, so you knew where we were in the song. Yeah. And then lots of different way. I mean, you know all those different tricks that you could do is like, sometimes you need a scratch track. So sometimes I would even do one real quiet and just a vocal track that we could play to.

There was like, we did lots of different approaches, but I'd say most often we kind of got the guitars, how we liked them with me kind of, lived to my eyebrows when the change was about to come, and then built off of those. And it was so nice though, I guess a lot of times. Click or no click. No click on this album. And we generally haven't done much to click. I think on our second third album with Mario, we did some click. And I was always a learning curve. And there was songs where I can still hear the click when I listen to it now.

You know, where it was holding us back, like we wanted to push and I can hear the click pulling us on a few songs. But I don't know if everybody hears it. There's songs that actually are bigger songs for us sometimes, but I feel like That's not our best version like now we do a lot better live. I feel like So I in general I don't like to click too much and especially once Blake was great about He didn't mind if a chorus sped up a few bpm and things like that, you know, or like well, it's a sounds good

Yeah, yeah, it sounds good exactly good And so there was something really nice though about having his, we had talked about it before, but he's just an amazing guitar player. And I was one of the things I actually was curious to hear his production ideas, but I knew I loved his guitar playing. And I really just wanted to sit around

and get them to play music with them and kind of learn his approach to guitar. And so I was my favorite thing is when I would show them a song and then he would, the way he, he can shred and all that stuff. He's like somebody who if he wants to, he can just stand out on top. But he has this really supportive way of playing on this album with me, where he would give these slight harmony parts to my guitar and he would just make it feel more musical as we recorded it.

There are times where you're recording the song and you have to imagine your mind, the drum part, the bass, and if you're building it in parts and you're not doing it live and starting with guitar, then it can feel a little lonely on that first track you're doing. And so something about starting together with the two guitars it always just felt. It sounds like a record. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I remember the first time I heard Blake, I didn't know who he was. I heard a, someone was playing me a cover song

and someone did for some project. And then the guitar solo came and we hear guitar solos all the time. And I remember stopping and saying, who is that? And it wasn't even like a look at me guitar. It was just like the feeling in it was so powerful. Like, who played that? And it's like, it's this kid Blake Mills. It was a long time ago.

He was a little kid. Yeah, yeah, he's so rad about it is that almost every time he changed it to like, he's done things where, I'll tell my friends, check this out. And I, a plate was played song. And then he won't do the same thing again. And I'll get frustrated at first because I'll be like, no, remember that thing you're doing, where you're making it sound like a shooting star. But if I open my mind, listen to a new thing he's doing, and it's like, oh, now you're finding something totally new

and it's again, and it's like, he's sat in with us live a few times, and he's never repeated what he does, but every time the band's like, oh my god, what do you just do? It's like, again, it's like those magic trick moments. And I know as for him, just having talked to him enough that he listens to guitar players, but not a whole lot. He loves other instruments from around the world. And it's something I've heard Hendrix talk about is trying to make his guitar sound like other instruments. Yeah, he's the horn. The horn is as well.

It's the greatest of people who've formed the soul horned so low, that invented a whole new sound is because they're using the guitar as an instrument to be able to try to interpret something else they're hearing. That's how Blake is. He's so much fun to play with them. You mentioned Endless Summer before. Is it possible to live an endless summer life? In other words, can you spend a whole year traveling around the world going to the best surf spots? Is there always good

surf somewhere? Yeah, and I know I know guys that do that too. It's um, well Kelly Slater, a big good example. He hasn't lived in one spot since he was a teenager, you know, he's just like constantly following good waves. Yeah. and that's his whole thing. So it can be done. It's just because the storm patterns change around the world, and there's always some we're great and warm. And so definitely, a lot of the pro tour, I guess, does that too. They're following the waves for their good.

So it can be done. Where have you surfed in Indonesia? I've surfed all around Sumatra and just like Java and Bali. A lot of different islands kind of all around. How did those islands compare to Hawaii? I've never been to Indonesia. Well, it's hard to put in the words, but they definitely have their own personalities. Like what happens with a wave a lot of times is how the water draws off of the reef and sometimes like you see it's a heady that really exaggerates a version where you can see the wave going below sea level off the reef,

it's pulling off in it. Has to do with how fast the wave is traveling when it hits the reef. And generally that happens when you're coming from really deep water to really shallow, really quick. Whereas somewhere like California, or it comes from deep to shallow, really gradually, it's like a big long incline. So the friction of the bottom of the ocean is slowing that wave down. So by the time the wave breaks, it just crumbles over instead of throwing over like it does in Indonesia, or Tahiti, is kind of the place where you see it the most. Hawaii is

probably a little heavier most of the time but you can find a heavy waves everywhere but Indonesia's real perfect it's real it's I guess surfers are trying to find the tube you know the barrel in that Rahalo wave it's a more playful version than say Tahiti or Hawaii which gets real heavy like a lot of a lot of energy in the waves. Indonesia's really, the water could be so glassy. Hawaii has trade winds, most of the time the winds blowing side off shore, and it creates that really magnificent spray off the wave,

you know, that you see, whereas Indonesia's less wind and really glassy surface. You have it, and each wave has its own personality. And surface that surf the same wave, you get really used to that personality of that wave and you learn that wave. And that's why you get some surfers and ever change spots.

They just surf their spot every day. It's a luxury to get the travel around and get to try and experience different personalities of waves, but. Is the goal eventually to get closer and closer to the same wave, or is it more fun to experience different places in different waves? I think a little of each, you know, there's also like when you surf a spot often, you know, you know, the people out there and there's that aspect too, you kind of know where

you are in the lineup, and which spots are more friendly, which spots are more territorial, there's so many things that go into it. I don't, I think everybody's goal is probably different. It's, and I think when you're a kid, you're in your improving every day, you have certain goals, and then when you had a level where maintaining is the goal, maintaining your health, maintaining what you can do on a wave,

and then maybe at some age just being able to stand up is the goal, you know, get into your feet. I can remember my dad and his friends at one barbecue when they were getting older, sharing tips on like how to still get to your feet, you know, like some of them were just going out and just riding away on the belly at that point, they were getting too old. It was like that was the hardest part was getting up to the feet. And so yeah, serving it can be lots of different goals in it. What's the surfer who had the five sons who were all surfers? Did a movie where they traveled around in a bus? Oh, the Pascuits, maybe Pascuits. Yeah, I remember towards the end, he would

surf on his knees. Yeah, yeah. What do you really got over there? Right, I remember that. Yeah, as long as you can ride, you know, I mean, really it's just being in the ocean, too. I'll get somewhere on tour where there really it's just being in the ocean too. I'll get somewhere on tour where there's no waves and just touching the source again, I get in the ocean. I remember, I won't get the quote right, but I remember something that I thought was moving and I kind of wanted to ask you what you meant by it

because it struck something in me, but when you stand looking at the ocean, you'll see a clearer reflection of yourself than in front of a mirror. Yeah. See, it's something about the vast impenetrability of the ocean. We see the beauty of life, the beauty of the life force on the planet. We're part of that, and that's closer to us than anything else.

And it's mysterious in the way that we are with ourselves. Yeah, it's impossible to know what's going on inside of ourselves. Yeah, it is so true. I mean, it really struck me because a lot of times I'll be brushing my teeth or something and I'll get a glance. And I don't tend to want to stand there and just look in the mirror. I'll just think like, that's funny. There he is.

And I'll kind of like usually walk out and brush my teeth somewhere else and I'll just think, that's funny, there he is. And I'll kind of like, usually walk out, brush my teeth somewhere else, and I'll come back. It's, but mirrors are funny. I like what Kervana gets talks about them, they call them leaks in one of his books, where it's like a leak to another dimension. But it struck me with what you're talking about, because the ocean could be so humbling too,

it's like it's so vast. And when the waves get more powerful, and you get get out there and it's just you and the ocean and yeah, I think that's so true, you really kind of learn yourself. Whether you're staring at it or in it, I like that saying. And it had a lot of mystery to me too, what she said that quote. I have a song called Only the Ocean. It's about my dad and it's about him and the thing I would see where he was at peace when he'd be in the ocean. The first verse is

about him, I think, if I let say it's better, it's an older song and the first chorus says it's only the ocean in you and then the second chorus, it's only the ocean in me. It's about passing of time also and just when you find the father in yourself and those kind of things. And it has that idea we talked about earlier when you look around and only horizon. I think it's in this song. What I take away from that is that anything we put on it is the story we put on it. But if you take the story away, it's just rolling.

Yeah. That whole album was my dad had just passed away, so a lot of those songs were me processing. And we had just returned them to the ocean, his ashes. And so, yeah, that was the last song on the album. But it was a lot of the metaphors and thoughts on the album had to do with water in different ways. I'd read Iron John, rubber play. I'd probably read recently and it was good time for me

and just a lot of the metaphors in that book really resonated with me at the time. So much of today's life happens on the web. Square space is your home base for building your dream presence in an online world. Designing a website is easy, using one of Squarespace's best in-class templates. With a built-in style kit, you can change fonts, imagery, margins, and menus, so your design will be perfectly tailored to your needs.

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Track inventory and connect with customers while you're on the go. Whether you're just starting out or already managing a successful brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create and customize a beautiful website. Visit squarespace.com slash tetra and get started today. It seems to have always been a connection between music and surfing from Dic Dahl and the Beach Boys. There always seems to be some connection there. Why do you think that is? Oh, I don't know. I can tell you my experience of the connection is going back to when we'd watch surf films and a lot of times it was it was us just getting excited for surfing.

It was when it became when we had VHSs, you know, like a pop-a-man after school and we could watch. We'd usually just fast forward to a part they wanted to see and we'd watch maybe 10 minutes. And for me it was Tom Kern. That was it. Like every most of my friends we all want it less. If you were regular foot you wanted to be Tom Kern. If you're goofy foot you want to be Mark O'Callupo. And so we'd watch those parts and then we'd go surf. And as we were surfing you would have that in your mind like if it was there was a song by the touchables. It went like, burn, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, wild child was called. And Mark O'Callupo, I think, there's maybe the first aerial I've ever seen in a movie, and he barely gets out of the wave, but he pulls it off,

you know, and it's, so we go out surfing, and that song would be in my head, and not just in your mind, but like, as I would take off on the wave, I would be, don, don, so it's almost like the music was related to that trick. Yeah, the music was related to that trick, or the music was related to just the feeling you got when you watched that person serve. And it made you feel like you were doing things that you probably weren't doing. You know, we were probably just wiggling down the line, but in our mind, we were doing

aerials, in our mind, we were doing these roundhouse cutbacks, and we'd see current doing. And it was like an escape. It was, yeah, when you just said that or remind me too, it's like a lot of times for me, like the first place I hear a song where I am is when I hear that song and I think of that experience, or that place. And that might be the meaning for the song. The song might be for the writer something totally different, but for me it might be where I was in a van with my wife on a road trip listening, and I picture those same things I'm seeing. And even though like if I really listen to lyrics and I about something else, it's like the meaning is in that road trip we were on, you know, it becomes its own thing. And it's I guess not too different

with the surfing. It's like, I have no idea what the songs were meaning. I just like, no, the feel was helping me find the rhythm on the wave. And there is a certain rhythm, but you can't put it to a meter because as the wave change, you need to change your rhythm to be able to harness the speed from it. So I don't know if that explains it, but I know there was a deep relationship between music and the surf films and what we were trying to do on the waves. If you look at it all the sets of waves coming rhythms and usually they're about 12 seconds apart each wave. And so you can hear rhythm hitting the shore every 12 seconds like on a calm night, you know coming from the ocean and it changes. Is it always 12 seconds?

No, that's kind of like the average. It could be 14, 15. It could be eight. It's like the longer it is, usually the cleaner the swell. And when it comes from really far away and Hawaii, it's like that interval gets longer. And those are the really big ones. So you can hear it too during the night when a new swell starts to hit.

And you can tell when there's an old swell that you can hear and then the new one starts to become faster, the waves are coming faster and they overtake those. And so it gives you weird rhythm sometimes in the night when a new swell's coming. So there's a certain rhythm, but it's such a slow rhythm. It's hard to think of it as music,

but it's really common. Yeah. That's probably also related to our heartbeat, the fact that we are rhythmic life creatures. And so is the ocean of life. It's rhythmic life. There's some relationship there. I think of music as a celebration. And I think in some way surfing seems like a celebration of life. They both have this exuberance and passion in them. And we talked earlier about how beautiful it is watching surf movies.

And I can't think of another sport that you could watch for hours. You know, I don't want to watch baseball for hours or basketball for hours. You know, without knowing the story of the game, if you take the story out of it and you're just watching what's happening, I don't know that there's anything else like surfing.

You also snowboard, and even that's different because you are moving to the mountain. It's not. Right. Yeah. That's true. There's a big difference. It feels like one continuous drop when you're on a, when you're snowboarding. Yeah, I've tried it a few times. I'm not great at snowboarding, but it's fun. It's a lot more like skimboarding than surfing. Snowboarding because you're using the rail of the snowboard instead of the fins on the bottom. You skimboard on the, like, sand sliding. Yeah, it's on the wet sand and you kind of hit the wave. And we do that quite a bit when we're kids.

We do that when I was kids too. It's really fun. Yeah. We'd spend hours and hours. And you try to like, you just slide down and hit the wave and do a front flip or different tricks. You know, it's just a good way to spend time. And you learn a lot in the short break, there's a lot of lessons that kids learn. It's kind of an important place to start when you're real little.

Do you ever play festivals or do you only do your own gigs? No, we do festivals. I'm pretty often, you know, we do a little mixture of the both. I like festivals for the collaboration with other artists. I love collaborating live. It's really fun. To me, the best part of it is getting to meet people like their music and then you get a chance to meet backstage

and you kind of get a sense of who seems like they're willing to collaborate and who's kind of got their blinders on. Just wants to do their thing. But anytime we can, we always have our openers when we're on tour come up and play a song with us in the night, just a lot of fun. When you do a collaboration with an artist that you don't know, might you do a cover song?

Yeah, depends. Like, usually we'll find, or we used to be that we'd say, hey, like what music do you listen to? And if we both do an artist, you know that song? We find something we all knew. And we'd have sort of like a go-to list of like the covers that we do with people sometimes. And then we started realizing like,

this happened a little more once we got further along that sometimes the openers would know some of our songs. So we'd be able to kind of like, they jump up for one of our tunes. Sometimes what we do now is we'll find, especially if the band has a little time, like we'll listen to some of the music of who's opening, find a song that we like and then do like a mash up where well, if it might just be the rhythm similar and we can put them together and the keys can change and all that, that doesn't matter. Or it might be a similar key and we're willing to kind of change the way

our song sounds, the match it with theirs and go A and B between the songs we've done that a little bit. It's fun. I love when you get just somebody who has either guitar or horn or something and you can just tell them what key it's in and they'll come up and lift the song up. So get in a play with somebody like Gary Clark Jr. or Lucas Nelson. Great. Just really good players, you know, like we love doing that. And sometimes Lucas is a really good friend now. He lives in Hawaii and over the years, we've gotten to know each other.

So if we're in the same town, he'll jump up and play a bunch of songs with us, you know, and just be part of the band for Lois. And he's great. I saw him do a version of Angel Flying too close to the ground recently at his dad's 80th birthday and it was just mind blowing. I told him, it's like one of the best live moments I'd ever seen. It was so good. It was just him with a guitar singing. And then when it came apart for the guitar solo, he did this beautiful

solo. And it was just like, he stepped away from the mic. And it was the way his dad, he kind of like honored the way his dad plays solos. And it was and it was wild and beautiful and gypsy and it was like And then he came back to the mic and just started singing again It was like something I can't explain the whole crowd is one. Have you ever seen Willie play? Oh, yeah a lot of time. Yeah, so incredible ridiculous. I love Willie. He's like one of my favorite humans, you know, he's like It's weird when you get a chance to, you know, just to meet people that inspire you as much as somebody like Willie, Neil Young, like getting to meet those kind of people has been a weird part of my life, like getting to say hello.

And then Willie's just always been so welcoming into his family and his world and living in Hawaii partly. We've done a lot of shows together. He's come and supported my wife and I have a nonprofit, Coco Kuhwai Foundation, and he came and played at our Coco Kuhwai Festival. And that's the first time Matt Lucas, he was a teenager and he was playing with his dad.

And Willie's great. Actually, I have a song about Willie Kuhwai. Willie got me stoned and took all my money. It's a true story. It's a true story, yeah. A true story. It is really funny, because he saw himself on stage.

Like he saw a comfortable there, you know, and like we were on stage still kind of waving to the crowd and doing the final bow at the end of this festival that we did on Maui one time together. And he's like, he's over. He's like, hey, you want to go to my house, but they poker? Like while we're still waving her, but you know.

So he went over there and it was really funny. A lot of friends were with us and Ben Harper was there that night too. And so I wrote this song. I got as approval before I sang it live, but it's a funny song. I know that you're interested in conservation of the ocean. And in all the years that you've been focused on it, what's been the biggest breakthrough that you've seen that can really, what's been the biggest breakthrough that you've seen that can really have impact on cleaning up the ocean? That's a good question.

So like, one of the things we do a lot, and it's really, it's important to do only to open people's minds to how big the problem is really, but beach cleanups, it's really just putting a bandaid on it, because this plastic is coming in, and it's only one problem. There's lots of problems with what's going on on the planet right now. But if you look at plastic in the ocean, ending up on the shores in Hawaii, it's like one of the things that as a surfer, grandpa, you've seen over our lifetime, get exponentially worse, where the high tide line is just becoming colorful

with bits of plastic. And after going on a expedition, we made a documentary called Smog of the Sea. We were doing this, collecting out in the ocean with a trough, and every time we'd put it out, even if we were days away from land, there'd be plastic coming up. And so when you look at that problem and you have these beach cleanups, they're really, you clean that beach up, you come back in a few weeks and it's just full of plastic again. So it's really, the solution is turning the tap off of plastic being produced. And, but you see these conversations start, families come down, people come down,

it's really well-doing the beach cleanup that you start talking, and you hear people talking and kind of opens their eyes to what's going on. And then to be able to see products you're using or like just to learn about the fish and industry and the amount of plastic being produced and those kind of things, it's kind of where it's like an aha moment for a lot of people. So it's, I think they're important to do, but I've heard other people say this too, it's like, if you're only going to go to the beach for a day, don't make it a beach cleanup. The beach cleanup should be for people like myself who get to spend so much time

down there and have the responsibility. Otherwise, you want to take your kid to enjoy nature. You don't want to like, head him over to have with the problem. It's like really, the most important thing you can do, I think, is make a kid fall in love with nature. So as they grow old, or they'll protect the things that that they love and if they love nature, they'll protect it. So, kind of through wine with all that, it's like one of the programs we do in Hawaii with is called Plastic Free Hawaii. And it's really about trying to give people the tools to go plastic free.

So, we go into the schools and talk with the kids, but we also have a storefront now called the Ku Kua General Store in Hawaii and it gives We have bulk refill in there and reusable Water bottles all these different options people can kind of go in just get inspired little parts of their life They want to change and try to take the plastic out of their daily day-to-day life I mean, so that's one part of it. It's like when you're talking about the plastic problem But there's so much with the acidification of the ocean. Also chemicals. Yeah, farming, on land, it's affecting our oceans.

So I mean, there's so many things. So I don't know if I'd be able to point at the one thing, the thing that my wife and I and our organization and Hawaii is we're doing is focusing on making kids fall in love with nature. So we're doing farm to school program too. Right. And we have a little farm, like an eight acre farm

over in Hollywood now, and field trips can come there. And kids just get to have a lot of fun. We have an area that's some natural springs come up to, and we've been taking all the invasives out and work groups come in, and we plant the native plants back in, and then you get to see the insects come back into birds. And I think when a kid can see those little bits of hope, even if it's just like you circle an area and say, hey, share there's lots of problems in the world.

I'm going to work right here. I'm going to circle this and I'm going to work on this little native wetland. And then to see that like over a span of two years, you can get rid of invasives, you can put natives in, you can see the native dragonflies come back and then the native birds planting those little seeds of hope, I think is really important, like those are the things, that's what I like to do at least, that's what I like to spend my time doing,

seeing kids come and getting a plant seeds. Have you seen that documentary? I think it's called biggest little farm. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, really inspiring. It's a great story. I Like that a lot. Cool man. Anything else you can think of that would be good for us to talk about Anything in your notes you want to check? The notes No, my biggest one was the one about the reflection of the water. Oh yeah. I like that when I heard that in a book.

That's cool. There's one really nice thing you do where you stop and you talk about all the senses you're feeling in a book and listening to two birds and whether they're communicating with each other. Again, it just reminded me of the process I went through to write a song on this last record. It's a song on this last record. It's the last song on the record. I can't remember the name right now,

but it's, I literally woke up early as one of those days for some reason I woke up before the sun rose and I sat outside and I started by playing guitar and I was just having a cup of coffee and then I decided like, oh, it was really quiet at first and I could start hearing the birds. So I put the guitar down and I just kind listened. And the song wrote itself really quick. It was just, it was about the feeling of such a beautiful morning

and getting to see the light come out and hearing the birds begin to sing. And then realize you can't hold onto that moment. You know, you have to let it go. Yeah. And then even a part about watching, I don't know, a rising, I could see a storm going by and how a storm looks peaceful when you're far from it and you can watch it from afar. And there were some metaphors in there about the storms going on in our world at the time.

That's the fun part about songwriting. Sometimes like something come from nowhere, like we've been talking about, and then being able to sort of find the layers and connect it back, even if it's other songs on the album, and be able to think about how those songs relate to each other. And so that was a fun part of your book to listen to as well and to read. Typically when you go into an album project, you don't know what it's going to be about. You just start writing songs, and then eventually the songs tell you, oh, there's a bigger theme here.

Yeah, I've always just sort of like every album has been a collection of what's been on my mind for the last few years. Mm-hmm. And then there's some times where I'll find a song, it just doesn't fit. And then it gets put there's some times. This song, actually the melody for that same song I was talking about, the last one, I've been trying to work on to an album for like three albums I had this and I kept thinking it was maybe my favorite one Mm-hmm

And I just put some reason like there was no words come into it and I kept bringing up and it was funny because I played it for Blake When he was like okay, we're getting towards you in here We have an album, but is there any like other ideas you have or like little things? I feel like there's still so and I played him the song I was fine because I played the the part and he was like, this is the best one you got. Like where has this been? This is the one.

And then we ended up working on that song, and it was a, I really like how it came out. It was the last song that we did. It was when we were pretty much done. When you're singing, are you thinking about the words you're singing? Yeah, like as I usually, if even live, I'll try to put myself back to where I was when I wrote the song. If it's an emotional song and I want to tap into that same feeling I had,

I'll try to put myself back to where I was when I could really feel the meaning. Definitely when I'm performing, I I try my best in the studio. I mean, when they're new, you want to tap into that same motion. You had not just be reading words off the paper, but feeling it as you're singing it. You know, and that one, it was, I lost a really close uncle right before. So I was singing to him, but I was singing to my father who's been gone for a while now, just like, you can always come home if you can hear me now, because sometimes my dad will visit me in my dreams. And I just love it. Like it really feels like a real visit, you know, it's like, I kind of know it is.

It's like, uh, and then, but I was also singing on a way to my son who just gone off the college. And like wanted to him to know he can always come, but he has a place, you know, he has his home. And so I was singing to a lot of different people that were important to me. And then also singing to the self, which I think is often the case. It's like whenever the songs are like a sort of meditation or an idea, I'm mostly trying to remind myself. It's like, the songs are almost like a meditation for me. And so it's a reminder to myself, you can come back to this place, you know, you can return to this where you're

centered. So I think about that morning, like, it's a real thing. When you're in a moment, you don't want to pass sometimes, like, time can really hurt, you know. And then other times, I feel like a pretty good relationship with time that I'm okay with the passing. And like, so that song in a way for me is just a meditation on being able to let it pass and let it go rather than getting stuck in those moments that feel so good. Kervana gets said, and I like this a lot, is that when you find yourself somewhere really comfortable or nice, just say out loud, if this is a nice, I don't know what it is. And then you kind of let it go, you know, but it's like to at least appreciate those moments where everything's comfortable and you're with people you love. Beautiful. Thank you so much for doing it. Yeah, thank you. you