Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - JAŸ-Z in 8: Inside the Series

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

In this special episode taken from a live event in London, Rick Rubin and Daniel Kaluuya join Ayishat Akanbi for a conversation about the making of JAŸ-Z in 8, a new eight-part documentary series exploring JAY-Z’s life, music, and creative process. JAŸ-Z in 8 premieres September 18 on HBO in North America, and on MUBI everywhere else. Works mentioned: 4:44 Smile Regrets Hard Knock Life (Ghetto Anthem) Vol. 3… Life and Times of S. Carter The Ghost of Soulja Slim — Jay Electronica featuring JAY-Z

JZ in 8, streaming this weekend on HBO in North America, and on Mooby, everywhere else. Tetrogrammerton. There are so many Beatles documentaries, so many McCartney documentaries, and almost all of them seem to be about the same thing, either Beetlemania or songwriting, both of which great topics. But there's a whole other world, and I was interested in the musicianship aspect of it. And I couldn't find books or films about the Beatles as musicians. So that was the focus of three to one. Having that experience thinking, who's a popular artist who may not be seen as they actually are? And I thought about Jay, because people think about Jay as a great businessman, executive, billionaire, married to Beyonce.

I just thought it would be really beautiful to show that artistry because without the artistry, none of the other stuff happens. And I'm so happy he decided to do it. Yeah, especially because he doesn't really do many interviews. I don't feel like watching it, it occurred to me that I don't think I've ever heard him speak at such length before. I remember hearing that you wanted your first album to be your only album. Yeah. That was your original plan.

Tell me about that. I don't know where that thought came from, but it was serious for me. I had these goals. I have one record, it would go, go, and now to be it. and then I'll have this company. I've always thought like a businessman. You know, it was like I was fighting an artist. I didn't love being an artist.

I didn't like shooting videos. I didn't like interviews. I didn't like speaking. I was pretty much introvert. This was the way I spoke. I would never talk like that if you were sitting around me. People that sat around me was like, go look it up.

Everyone says, he was so quiet. He never said anything. I would never talk like in those days. I would never have a conversation, you know, and it was part of the, you know, my job. You're not talking to people, keep yourself with things, stay in the shadows, you're a hustler, you gonna be on TV? That goes against everything.

Who are you? There's no early footage of me. I would never let any cameras come around me. film me? Oh no, we're going to have a fight. Like, there's going to be a problem filming me. So everything that I was doing was, you're counterintuitive to how I lived. And I didn't, I didn't, I didn't like the music business. I wanted to do it because I had a dream and I had a talent to do it, but I didn't, I didn't want to be in. Yeah, you didn't aspire to be an artist. I didn't aspire to be an artist. Yeah. So I was like, I'm going to do this. And then I'll

have a company. Daniel, to some people, you and Rick linking up as a bit of an unlikely pair. And so I wonder, what was it about your conversations or things that you share in common that made you think that you guys should actually work together? Then he was hanging out. And he said, I want to show you something.

And then he showed it, but then I was like it. These are my thoughts. And I know, he mentioned my Jay-Z thing. And I thought, oh, cool. He said it's eight. hours long. So I was ready for eight hours. Then in by like three and a half, it's so dense. It was hard. It was like steep. But then I was, I wrote some thoughts that I had about it. I thought, oh, this and that and this and this. Remember he said verbatim, he was like,

he said, I don't know what you're talking about. I think you do that. So why aren't you do it? And then I was like, what do you mean? They said, do it? And I was like, all right, I called it and I did it. What's mad is that, like, I just, I love music, and it's like, I get bored and modern music. There's no feeling in it. There's money in it. And then, like, I just finished listening to Jay Z chronologically,

just randomly. I was just like, just going to my favourite artist to listen in chronologically. So, yeah, it wasn't like, oh, it's work. It was just that kind of like, you had this idea and I had thoughts about it. Then I just was invested. Yeah, and I think I share your sentiments,

especially perhaps where rapists in sound, that there isn't as much feeling as a lot of the rapist. that I grew up on. Because I think that for a lot of people, Jay's always spoken about as one of the best to ever do it. But I think for a lot of modern rap listeners, that's not necessarily something that's a parent to them.

They don't really understand why that is. And so, you know, rap is always something that I've considered to be like my first musical love. It introduced me to politics. It sparked my interest in social issues. I wonder, what does hip hop maybe mean for the both of you? Well, it came along at a time. I was going to school at NYU

and with some kids in school had mixtapes, and there was no hip-hop on the radio. It was a totally underground form of music. Same time as punk rock music. I was listening to more punk rock at the time. And I started listening to these tapes, and it felt like it feels just like punk rock to me. It had the same energy of young people, street-level,

something to say, saying it. It wasn't from the conservatory, and that spoke to me. And then when I went to NYU, I started going to hip hop clubs. It was one in the grill, which was a reggae club six nights of the week. And one night a week, they had hip hop. And I would go to that every week, Tuesday nights. And at that time, the only records that you could buy that were hip-hop really were for DJs.

They would be 12-inch singles, but very limited. And none of them had the energy that I experienced going to the club. So as a fan, I just wanted to make something that sounded more like what I heard at the club. Really, like, documentarian of hip-hop. And those were the first death jam records. And Daniel, what about you? What's your relationship with hip-hop? I was the only boy in my household, like, so with more R&P, it was in my house.

I basically child, Lauren Hill. And then I just record everything on the radio, like HFM or like DJ 279. I would just record, rap. That's all I would do is just listen to music. Remember I was going on holiday with my mum and I just have CDs like Biggie two-part, Jay, I had to listen, this, this, this, and now I look back to Kaffirite, which is articulating what was happening to me, that I wasn't able to talk about and all the feelings I had and the frustrations I had and thought.

It was like painting my inner world, yeah. One of the things you said earlier, Rick, was about how this documentary kind of shows a side of Jay-Z that we don't really know or get to experience very much. And I remember being quite struck by, there's a tenderness, there's a real thing, There's a real tenderness to him and a real sort of eloquence to the way that he articulates himself. I think a lot of musicians outside of rap can really struggle with, which is why they are often drawn to music. And I remember feeling emotional at certain points,

particularly when he spoke about the relationship with his father. And I wonder, was there anything for you, Rick, that you found? So many things. The fact that he never wanted to be an artist, really. Like, the whole thing happened to him, and he never wanted to be famous. The worst part of his job is that he feels like he doesn't really have the personal life that we all have because fame comes with all these traps.

And again, he's not complaining. He says, you know, he's thankful that it all worked out the way it did. But it wasn't anything he was looking for. He wasn't yearning for fame. Just the opposite. He wanted to be in the background, always. So that was one of the things that kind of blew my mind. But many, many, all through it.

I've seen interviews of Jay from the past, and he's always been rapper Jay-Z, in the same way that before he was rapper J-Z, he was drug dealer Jay-Z. So there was always this mask, and you never knew what he was thinking, and he would only give you what he wanted to give you. But he never really felt like he got to meet him. But I knew him in real life. I knew him, and here everyone gets to see, this is really him. And the fact that it's as long as it is, at the end of it, you really know him. And a friend of his, Tata, who's been with him from the beginning, watched the whole thing, crying. Now, he's been with Jay every step of the way since kids in school, every step.

And he watched it and he said, I didn't know half of what he said. And this is someone who's with him every day of his life because he doesn't talk. He is a very private person, and he felt comfortable and opened up. I'll tell you some of the secrets of the way this was made. It wasn't a film shoot. When you go to a film shoot, there are cameras all around, and there's a big production with a lot of people, and then in the middle of all of this technical stuff,

there's an actor or two in the middle doing some little thing. But to the hundred people on the set, that's insignificant. They're working on the technical aspect of it. I went to visit Robert Downey Jr. When they were making the movie Iron Man, and there were a thousand people working, and he would go out on stage to do his thing.

And of the thousand people there, I think there was maybe one who even paid attention to what he was, he was totally insignificant in this giant machine. And I remember thinking, this doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel right. So the way this was made was, Jay knew we were making this. But in the space, there were no cameras in the space, couldn't see any cameras, couldn't see any people.

We walk into the building together alone. One guy comes over and puts mics on us and leaves. And then we step out into this big room and we sit at this table and start having this conversation. And within seven minutes, You realize it's not a film shooting, and we are two people in this big, empty room. It's dead silent, and we're having a real conversation that goes on for hours and hours and hours over several days. So the reason you haven't seen him like this before is because you couldn't make it the way you normally make things and have it feel like this. No one came in and said, okay, action, let's go.

It wasn't like that. I was going to ask, you know, how did you create the conditions to get him that comfortable to open up in their way? Yeah, it felt exactly like this. It felt like we're having this conversation. We're not on the PA. I'm really in the moment with you having this conversation. It's like that. It's a very intimate thing.

And because it was silent, because it was nobody else in the space, you couldn't see anyone. All the people working were all dressed in black and had no shoes on. So everything was silent in the place, and they were all hidden and far away and in the shadows. My favorite line was,

Jigerman is Diesel when I lift the eight up. So diesel meaning strong. He says, he's cocked diesel. And then the eight reference in the gun, the 38. He said diesel when I lift the eight up. But the second meaning of that, when Kobe and Shaq won the championship, there's a famous photo of Shaq holding him in his hand.

Jigger Man is Diesel. They call Shaq Shaq Diesel because he was so strong. Sugar Man is Diesel when I left the eight up. Kobe number was eight. Wow. So he had Kobe in his hand. So cool.

Yeah. And so another element of the documentary that I really love is how you draw attention to the lyrics, not just on screen, but, you know, Jay-Z gives the context behind them.

And despite rap containing more lyrics than most genres, if not all genres, I still think lyrics can often kind of go over the heads of some people. So was it really important for you both to have that element, you know, where he's breaking down his lyrics? That was the initial premise of the whole thing was showing Jay-Z through his lyrics. If you could read them, you could see the care, skill, difficulty, complexity in those words

that if you're not reading them, you would never know it. You know, you might know the hook of the song and you might like the beat and you might sing along, but nobody knows what he's really saying except a tiny, tiny portion of the audience. So that was really the hope was to find a way to share what a great artist he is. And his art is lyrics. That's his art. Yeah, Daniel, how about him? The word being upstream gives it objectivity.

And so it removes the prejudice that lives in the idea of how we see rap. So what happens is that there's things in the idea and the concept of rap, how it lives in society and culture, that stops you from really listening to what these guys are doing. Like, I'm really seeing what I'm hearing and connecting to it. It allows you like a bigger picture into what they're actually doing. Yeah, is what I feel. I think one of the surprising elements for me is that seeing the lyrics on screen

and you realize that nothing is cellar. Like, everything is very layered. I think we're constantly bombarded with this idea that our attentions are the worst they've ever been in human history, you know, our attention span is what I mean. You know, what made you confident that you could do a documentary in this style without much other footage, just Rick and Jay talking and still hold people's attentions? Was that ever something that you were nervous about? You said, I should think we're here to do stuff that I've had to be done before.

I don't care what people do. Wow, say, wow. Weird to make art, no. I think it's just like, in this short art history, what side do you want? If it works, it works, it doesn't, it doesn't. Don't watch it. If you like, watch it.

Like, it's that kind of like little weak, why are we kind of internalizing and how, then the judge in us, it will connect to who it needs to connect to. I feel like if you like Jay-Z, longer's better. I know if there's something I'm interested in, I want more, I don't want less. So maybe it's not for everybody, But for the people, it's not four.

They won't even like one episode. But the people who like it, maybe it's not enough. Yeah. You know, it can go on forever if you're really interested. I wonder, if there any moments during the documentary, is there anything in particular, you know, that you can maybe talk about, that you're quite excited for audiences, Daniel? There's so much, like, 444, it's a great, you know,

at that point you had to listen to it back. Yeah, that's one of the most incredible things. This is a song that's one of his most personal songs. It came out several years ago. And I said, let's listen to it. And first thing he does is he reacts. Like, oh, you're going to make me listen to this? And then we listen to it.

And the first thing he says is, I haven't listened to it since I recorded it. Never. And it's the most personal song you've ever heard. But the fact that he could record something so personal and share it with the world, but it would be too much for he himself. to listen to. He told the story also with his mother, where he lyrics that he could never say to his mother, yet he puts it out on a record for the world to hear, and the mother hears it as part of it. But we learn from this that his way of communicating, his only way of communicating is through lyrics.

That's how we know him. That's how anyone knows him. That's how his family knows him, is through what he puts in the words. Because if it's not in the words, it's not what's happening with him and he won't say it. Man, I can't believe I wrote that. So, again, I was 27, but still early in my career. Yeah. And you're saying that as a person, you wouldn't have said these things in real life. Not a chance.

That's crazy. And I was saying also that the first time, you know, hearing this would be on record. It wasn't like it was a heads up either. It wasn't like some, let me sit down. This is what I'm saying. Like 4-44-4 was way different. When I wrote that smile by my mom, it was a conversation. Like, hey, this is, listen to this.

The first time, I remember my first time hearing that, she was like, no. That's my story to tell. And I was like, yeah, but, you know, I mean, mentor you do this process. and it was like a real conversation until like maybe a month later she came to LA and she had written that poem on the plane and she came and like listen to this and it was like

it was like her saying yes and the blessings and like the completion of a real healthy conversation about speaking about certain things you know this was unhealthy it was just like you said was therapy for me but it wasn't all the way

fair to people. Let's talk about what's going on in your head to allow this to come out in your art. Even that is radical. Yes, exactly. These are the words not to be said, and you're laying it out. This was the only place, was my only outlet for to release these, you know, you can hear the shame and guilt and all of these verses. I say later on a thing, and more than one way cocaine numbs the brain. Like you start numbing yourself to things that you would never do. Yes. Like you start losing yourself in that. Like it's always like, I always say it's two sides of substance abuse.

You know, people get addicted to that feeling and adrenaline to being hustlers and being in that life. That like, you know, you start overlooking things. You have to compartmentalize. Absolutely to be able to do it. To be able to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. You know what I mean? You have to like make these versions of yourself. You have to splinter off into all these little versions to justify what you're doing. Say, I'm going to do that, but I'm not going to do this. I'll sell drugs to this person, but I won't sell it to a pregnant woman. But you end up living in a really small box. Yeah. And I could hear that, like just dealing with that. Like dealing with in a real, there's like like in a real way. In a real way, in a poetic way. You feel. the emotion in it. And in the context of someone who's, you hear bragging on records, this is shocking. Right. Yeah. It's shocking. It was always the moment and that's what I believe was the last song on the album, like when the last song came in where I was super introspective, even on the first album, the last song is regrets. When I was young, you used to hold me. It's a rapper, saying you used to hold me. You told me I was another song to my mom. When I was young,

you used to hold me, told me I was the best. Everything, only thing I want is only that I could grab. On order to survive, had to learn to live with regrets. Again, this compartmentalization of like, I had to put away those feelings. I couldn't deal with regret and mistakes. You got to keep going. Can't dwell on it.

Oh, man, I did that. Keep going. And once you start doing that, obviously you burying your feelings and burying those feelings, they're not going anymore. No. No. Good year. I wonder, maybe you have kind of touched on it a little bit with your last answer around,

you know, artist your industry, what side are you on? Is there any advice that you would give to emerging artists in film or music, you know, what qualities do you think are needed today to be a trailblazer in a time where, you know, we live in an attention economy where everyone is competing for eyeballs? So what is important for you to perhaps say to emerging arts? I think it could be able to express, you're doing to impress. So if you're doing to impress, then going, and they're going to be, you know, right in the bat

and trying to go these execs, going, well, I don't think so. These people that are non-artistic telling you about your art, and then you're like, no, no, no, no, like, what? That's just don't make sense to me. And I think that, like, what he was talking about, I don't think he's like trying to be, like, just let out. Had stuff I wanted to express, and that was my language.

I'm doing it. That was with the tools that I had available. And then when I got more tools, I'd have been in different ways. But it's like the fullness of the expression, just do it, just let out. And don't worry about the outcome. It's easier said and done,

but it's easier said and done. Yeah, I would say the same. I would say, make it totally personal, make your favorite thing, you're the audience. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. If you get a lot of criticism, that's fine. If people hate it, that's fine. it's actually better if people hate it than if they don't care about it.

So if you make something that warrants some energetic reaction good or bad, that's better than mediocrity. So go hard, whatever you do, take it as far as you possibly can and see what happens. Yeah. Well, this one is, you know, just for me, because I always feel like I can, I get to know people or sometimes to the music that they like. And I always think what we gravitate to, what we essentially vibrate to speaks volume.

So out of curiosity, what is some of your favorite Jay's song? Okay, what's a great moment in this, right? Is when he said he figured out, when he did Hot Not Left and he figured out how to combine the real story of what he's been through in melodies, and he opened that door. And then I listened to that album the other day, yeah, volume three. And I think I just love bonding three.

Just how he sonically grew. And it was just like, yeah. And I think that album means a lot to him, yeah. Okay. But you're Rick. Maybe it's an album. Maybe song is too difficult. No, I'll say there's the opening song on the J-Electronic album.

I don't know what it's called. But it starts with J-wrapping and he's just on fire. I can't believe we didn't include it. Now that I think about it, I can't believe we didn't include it in the series. So that's the opening song on the J. Electronica. It's an opening song on the J. Electronica. And it's weird because it's J.E.E.E.O.L.E.O.

And it's weird because J.E.E.L.E. And it's insane. So that's the first thing that comes to mind is, like, the J.C. that I love. So for all of us who don't know that. I'm not sure if I know that one. Or maybe. So, anyway, we should check that out. Okay. So is this a creative venture between the two of you that we can expect more from perhaps?

Hope so. Yeah. Very good, well. Okay, well. Well, we look forward to that. And thank you again for making this wonderful documentary. Tetragrammatin is a podcast. Tetragrammatin is a website.

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