Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Jerrod Carmichael

Episode Date: April 12, 2023

Jerrod Carmichael is a comedian, actor, writer, and director. He is most known for his breakthrough standup special “8” and his his newest, most talked about special “Rothaniel” both on HBO. "The Carmichael Show” sitcom on NBC was his first foray into television. In 2023, he hosted SNL and the Golden Globe Awards.

Tetragrammerton No, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'll talk about it. I'm recording, like the show is made work in life, the same thing in so many ways. A lot of you've been filming now. Now for three or four weeks for this. No, but you started before that. Yeah, I started before that. And then I would film often all in that break between like October and January.

I would film some. But everything has been since the last special. Yeah. Yeah. And from the time that you started it, what I remember was I'm just going to start filming stuff, but you didn't have a, I don't remember you having a clear vision of an end of what it was gonna be. No, no, well, we're treating it episodically now, like it's like just a show.

Like a show. Just thinking of it as like a Dacu series, but it kind of flows like life, like nothing's on a rigid schedule. It's really funny how it's coming together because it is, like it is work, but it's not, it's so personal now that like it's stuff I should do to grow in life.

And I'm doing it, I was thinking about this the other day, how much like it resembles when I did the multi-cam sitcom, the thing that's hard about sitcoms, like they can be funny, but the character has to grow in some way by the end of the episode. And I was a comedian that was not about growth at all. I wouldn't have said that. Like it was like I would have rebelled against like I have no message.

There's no growth. So even as a young man making that show, it's like, and where did you learn, Gerard? I'm like, why I gotta learn something. I didn't want to learn. I just want it to like, you know, have it play out. But now I'm ready to learn stuff and I know that like the importance of it.

So it's actually easier in many ways than writing the show like then try to find something. It's hard because it's something that I don't want to do or something I'm afraid of or like it's facing something. But it's easier, it like it writes itself in a more natural way, you know, but it's easier, it writes itself in a more natural way, because it's like, oh, I have learned something. This is what I learned, and it finds a pocket I never could have written.

I'm just starting, so I don't wanna like speak to some, because some of it may not be growth, some of it may be hitting a wall, and so we've been talking about it. So would you say it's a real reality show. Like there's never been a real reality show. That's exactly how I thought of it. I was like, oh, what if I made a real,

like a reality show that wasn't a fake show? Yes, yes, that was a real reality show. It is like, and it's, at times aware of itself, but not so much that it's distracting. You know, it's like, aware of it as much as one would be aware, like, okay, the cameras are here. But when you have the cameras around enough,

you start the awareness dissipates, and it's no longer like, look at that, and not performing for it anymore. Because you would just be exhausted, like just hours and hours and hours of filming. Like you eventually let your guard down. Yeah. When you're doing comedy, when you get up

or doing a proper comedy show, and whether you're just there with the audience or whether it's being filmed, is it different? Like if you know you're filming it, does it change? So filming on stage does heighten it. But in a way that I love, like, it's like, okay, get this, like, it's kind of, I mean, I'm talking to you,

you know this, that space where like complete focus and letting go meet and it's like, like, I trust it more because I know the camera captures the truth, even if I'm trying to hide it, so I might as well not hide it. So it incentivizes me to be honest and it incentivizes me to like want to go somewhere. I want to give a show, I'm on stage and I want to perform and I want it to like want to go somewhere. I wanna give a show, I'm on stage, and I wanna perform, and I want it to be good. And, you know, if it's being recorded, I would like not to go back to get another take.

I don't consider it that way. I wanna get it right now, right? And there's a combination of those things that when I get that right, it just, it's just a much better show. It's just much better. So you'd say that the pressure of filming it heightens the experience for you in a good

way, or is it not that there's pressure? It's something else. A friend asked me earlier today if I feel pressure and there is pressure to do good creatively. And I know I have to be honest and I know the preparation it takes. I prepare for every show now more than I have before. And it's a lot of preparation preparation and then just like, like not having my phone around, like not no small talk, no nothing. I walk from my door to the stage, if I'm in New York and I'm doing city winery. I literally just with headphones, Dave Rubik

walking in there and let go. And so having the cameras there, it's just like, it confirms what I already know that it's just another experience, but it's a more permanent experience. Someone else in the audience who is taking, like really taking all this in, recording it. And so I wanna do well for that, you know,

which is what I should be feeling anyway. And I do, but like the camera's just, well, it's an interesting thing, as you say it, what I'm thinking about is, when you do a show in front of an audience It's public so people have the experience and it's that moment when you film it Two things happen one more people can see it but also

You can watch it over and over again, which you can't do if you don't film it. Yes So there's the repeat the repeat aspect of it. And that's very different. That's a very different. It's very different. And it makes me both called them like they almost feel like these unique improvised jazz performances. Like, oh, you came here tonight. You'll never see this performance again. And that's how my shows have been going. So capturing it, it makes me wanna do that more. It makes me wanna like, craft some unique experience that I haven't recorded before,

that I can record right now, that I can't do again. And it's, yeah, yeah. I suppose in some ways also, once it's on film, it becomes obsolete. It's over. It's over. And you don't say those things anymore,

because you've said those. I've said those, I've recorded those. Whereas if you don't film it, you might do a similar set. Another night, you might, you know, like work towards perfecting the material over weeks, months, years. Yeah, yeah.

Until you film it, and then when you film it, that like it's stamped, yes. And then it gets taken out, and now we're back to a clean slate. Yeah, yeah. Now, because it's been so personal, I'm filming where I'm at right now in my life. It's a snapshot of right now.

Sometimes I'm like talking about something very immediate. Sometimes it's figuring out a person from my past and an event from my past. But because it's so personal, it's like a conversation about it or like a therapy session about it, or like it's just exploring it from whatever angle, whatever is happening in that moment, stories. And then that's it. You know, that's it. is happening in that moment, stories, and then that's it, you know, that's it. And yeah, if it's recorded, then we record it that. And even if I talked about it again,

it would just be different. Like talking about my dad, you know, I just went on this road trip with my dad and I haven't done stand up about it yet, but I could do 10 completely different sets about that road trip. Like, you know, like completely different thoughts or ways in, like, like, like, I'm trying to figure out what it is. So I would be working it out on stage. So if you didn't do those 10 sets to get that material out in the very near future, would it just evaporate? It would evaporate a bit of a change.

And it's at its best when there's something urgent, when there's something present, either something that I've, like, a revelation I've had, or something that could lead me to a revelation on stage, or a question that I can explore, but there has to be urgency to it. So what would happen is, like, you know, and like, it's taken me like a week,

it hasn't been a full week yet, but it's taken me some days to, I've had realizations today about, you know, last week. And that it'll grow. And I'll start capturing those right in these things now. And then, you know, I'll do some sets. A month from now, it's something else.

It's what I've taken from it at that point. Maybe I have a burning question, or maybe there's something else that I'm trying to figure out about it, but it may not be as urgent. It may not be, like, you know, maybe it will, maybe it won't, I don't know, but I can only follow those things which are. Yeah.

When did the idea of honesty become such a home marketer what you're doing? It was like such a wild thing to conceive. It was like exposing, at least is how I felt, Like it was exposing all of my life up until that point as at least somewhat of a lie and I felt like somewhat of a lie retrospectively. And because that was so big and so scary, doing that, it's almost like a drug now. It's like, okay, can I just be? Can I just be honest? Can I expand that into my work? Can I expand that into my relationship?

Can I expand that into everything? How can I make work out of it? It's just because it's a personal obsession, which I still fall short of, the smallest ways and sometimes in bigger, more consequential ways, keeping stuff from people important to me, keeping myself from people important to me. It makes the work interesting, but they are married now, because it's like, if I'm talking about my life on stage, then I don't know.

I'm just, I'm curious to see how long I can keep it up. Really, I don't know like that. I keep finding new consequences. If that makes sense, like I keep finding new, like it, it doesn't feel easy yet. Only consequences or consequences and prizes. Like, both, both, but the consequences is what makes it if it were consequence free I don't know if I would be applying it to my work, you know, because I like it wouldn't

It wouldn't be as interesting Okay, so as it relates to consequences, let's talk about the golden gloves. Okay, tell me your experience of that night. That night was, I didn't know exactly what I was going to say, until like, truly 15 minutes before, like going out there. Did you have something else you could have done? Like, did you have something else up until that moment, was there a different plan? I just couldn't settle on one.

I didn't know what it needed for me. Like, and I said yes, I felt compelled to say yes. How far in advance did you say yes? This is maybe four weeks. So not so long. Not so long, not so long. And I said yes, I want it to do it. I get excited. It's interesting because I feel as though I could be a good host, and I resent that,

because I don't know. To me, my definition of host is sacrificing yourself for, you know, the show. And, you know, being the host is not about you. It's not about you. It's about the show. And I only want to talk about me. I only want to explore, like, it's the thing I have authority over, or the story I have authority over. It's the thing that, you know, I'm an expert sometimes

at, you know, and I'm curious about, I wanna talk about me. So hosting was hard because I know what the set traditionally requires, like jokes, it's jokes. And I tell jokes sometimes. It hasn't been how I describe my style recently. But like, it's not a lot of jokes. I think I'm funny.

I don't think I tell a lot of jokes though. I told a lot of jokes and I can write a joke and I wrote some jokes for the globes. And I said a few jokes, post monologues, sprinkled throughout, I said like some of the jokes that I thought were funny. I thought they were really funny. I thought they were kinda dangerous and funny.

And but the monologue, I didn't know how to talk. I don't know how to talk for five minutes, not about me. I can, I'm just not interested in that. Yeah. Like, and I was, it was a lot to figure out with the globes, like, why did I say yes? I kept trying to figure out, why did I say yes? And why did you say yes?

Let's talk about it. Because I like it. I do love award shows. I love show business. Yeah. I do love award shows. I love show business. I love the entertainment industry. I think it's really, really cool. And sometimes I sound pretentious and I sound like an asshole and it's only because I love it so much. I think things should be good and can be good. I think things should be exciting. I love television. I love live television. I watch SNL every week because it's a live event where something could happen,

something exciting could happen. It's a show that you have to get right in the moment. That's exciting to me. The Golden Globes is live. I just know in SNL, I wanted to do this. I was like, oh, this is great because there's some danger in that. Like, what's gonna happen? And I knew that and I, you know, I knew I wasn't gonna tell NBC my monologue and I knew I kinda had the situation by the balls because they got in controversy over some race shit. They got a black hole because they kinda had to. And here I am, you know what I'm saying? Also different though, the Golden Globes and SNL

are really different because people are coming to SNL to laugh. People are coming to Golden Globes to hopefully win an award and they're, they're saying anxiety. They're saying anxiety. Even getting up in Las Vegas, like the people in Las Vegas are dancing comedy. They're there to do to gamble. And if you go to a comedy show, it's a weird vibe in the room. Some people lost. They lost or if they're winning, they want to go back to the table. Yes, exactly. They wanna break it. Yeah.

And the show had anxiety. The show itself had a nervousness to it because of the fact that it was the controversy, the past. It had an organization, the Hollywood Foreign Press Association, that had no black members that was found out, you know, and as they reorganized, they didn't air the previous year. And so they're back on a one-year contract, and I'm the host. It's one-year contract, and I'm the host, it's one-year contract.

And I did feel an obligation to speak to that and in many ways for the show and justify even the need for the show, like, because it's like, you could argue why is this even exist anymore. But because I love showbiz and I, you know, have a deep appreciation for really talented people, even if it is like a silly organization, then, you know, if people want to watch and you can award people for being talented that year and their field, then great.

I think that's great, you know, and I think it got so mired in politics and I just wanted to address why I was there and what I thought about it. And I felt like that was the marriage between my stand-up where I'm at right now and the show. And I was like, okay, well, I'll talk about me and how I got here. It just felt like the right thing to do to me, if I like the right thing to do. And I still wanted it to be funny and I still think, personally, I think it's very funny. I laugh at it. I laugh at it. There was, you know, a couple jokes that the room was so tense they didn't really laugh, but I was like, I ain't what can you do about that? And you felt the anxiety of what is he going to say, which is exciting to me because his

live. And like, I'm not just telling jokes and I'm not like Ricky Javay should host. Truly, he should host like and he'll probably be back next year. He should do it. I think it is like the ribbing that they want. They want like, you know, jabbus, but what I was just being personal, I was talking about the president of the organization and NBC marketing and things that were very real, you know, what was the feeling in the room? What did it feel like being on stage? Well, first of all, I talked to production before the show and don't get me right, I love

Steven Hill who asked me to do it. But I asked production to have the room quiet, just from a performance aspect, like I'm treating it like in the other show, as far as I'm concerned as a performer, like I wanna go out and I want the room to be as quiet as you can, because it's television, again, and when the red light is on, shut up. Like, focus should be for the camera.

Like this is a force beyond all of us now. That's how I view it. And I know it's the boozy one and the fun one. But I'm like, well, I'm a one-year country. I actually want to do a good job. I don't want to have like, you know, focus to do it. I go out, it's loud. So, you know, they cut it out of the YouTube clip,

but like, on the actual live one, it's the first few seconds are just me asking the audience to settle. I'm just pacing back and forth and asking them to settle down and getting the focus down and quiet, really focuses everyone's attention. So everyone then got quiet. And then I began, but it was at that point, then kind of a nervous energy. You know, like everyone's kind of quiet and lean forward. And they want to laugh and they're looking for a way to laugh or a reason to laugh. But you know, a lot of people in that room aren't familiar with me. So they don't know, like my sense of humor, and they're learning it in the moment. And yeah, it felt a little tense.

It felt a little tense. Was it after the monologue, what was your immediate feeling right when the monologue ends? Good. I felt like I said what I wanted to say. Yeah. I was like, yeah, this is that's what I wanted to say. Yeah. I was like, yeah, this is that's what I wanted to say. Kind of how I wanted to say it. I didn't want to smile. And I didn't smile. You know, and I told jokes, you know, for the rest of the night, and I was ready to do that. But the monologue felt good. It felt like me. I think if I can recognize myself, I feel okay about it.

Yeah. If I know that I went out there, it was me. And I was like, cool. That's pretty cool. In earlier, when you were talking about going on a trip with your father, just now coming back, and now there's 10 potential sets that could come from there. How much do you look back on things like, you just went on this trip? How much do you think about it after? A lot, my friend Avery said, I seem heavy, like, for the past couple of days. And it's because it is a lot to process just my father and his past and, you know, I brought

up things he didn't want to talk about. And, you know, I watched him really shut down and I saw myself in him. Wow. And it's that's heavy. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot and I can see me. I can really see me and I can see him trapped in there sometimes.

And I don't know. And I saw parts of myself that I didn't like, like why am I doing, question a whole thing, why am I doing this, why do I have cameras on my father and I'm asking these personal questions. And I feel at times I question the necessity of that. And then I know I never would have asked them these things without them. And so then I get answers that even when he doesn't answer the camera gets an answer. Camera always gets an answer. And so I get answers.

And some of those answers, you know, calling the question my whole childhood, you know, and it's like heavy, and it's like, as I'm saying about like consequences, like it doesn't feel good. It going through that, I don't like it. I don't know how else the word is going like. It's a difficult process, but you have to get through the process in order to get to the side of it.

Yeah, I'm hoping there's something to learn, and I know I have to keep digging deeper in me and my father's relationship just personally with and without cameras. I still have to, there's stuff I have to figure out, and I want to figure out while he's here. What do you think it is about you wanting the camera? You said you wouldn't ask the questions if the camera wasn't on. It makes me braver somehow,

because it's on the record and it's like, there is something God like about the camera. Like, all right, you're in front of God, say what you want to say. Like, God sees all. You can only express purity in front of God, like in the presence of God in a way. Not that sound dramatic about it, but it's a lie detector test. It's a, it's God a little bit. And I know that could be a sick way of looking at it,

but I always view God as present. Yeah. And the camera just confirms how I felt. So it being there, ask your, your in front of God now, what would you ask someone in front of God if God is present? Yeah, I wonder if you couched it. That's a really interesting idea. If you said to your dad,

I know there's a camera here, but don't worry about that. Answer me as if God is present. God is present. Let's have a conversation before God. Yeah. Yeah. How does that change the anxiety level when you're having a conversation before God versus in front of a camera? I feel like in front of God I would relax more. For me, well, once I learned to trust God, I trust God and so I can. But it wasn't easy for me just to overcome the personal obstacles, the fears, the fear

of perception or being perceived the wrong way. Because I was always afraid of being found out my whole life. So your whole life starting when? As long as I can remember, I knew there were feelings I had toward boys that were wrong and I knew my father's secret and that brought me a certain level of embarrassment for my family. And so I was always kind of hiding something, hiding little details about myself or hiding actual facts about my life just because I don't want to be found out. I was afraid of being caught, but you were afraid of being caught by people or by God. All of it, all of it.

I was afraid of being caught by people in God. I had a, I don't want to tell like two vulgar of a story or a trait, but like, I was a kid. Like, you know, we always had a computer as my parents to get a computer. So we got an IBM and right when when I was like, 12, 13, I would get home from middle school before my parents got home from work. So I just say as a kid, it's perfect. I mean, at the time, the jerk off and explore yourself and whatever. I'm doing what all boys do.

So, I'm on the internet, but I always felt like God was in the room. He's always watching. So it made me put away, I would put away if there was like a Bible out, if I'm left a Bible out, I have to put that out of the room or like any crosses or little things I had to kind of turn around before doing it

because God is looking at you. And even that was too much having these physical manifestations of God clearing it. I mean, I just was too much so I will put that away. But still feeling like God was watching and me being a little closet at Gay Boy on my Gay websites, you know, I would watch Gay porn first, finish, and then I would go back and watch a straight porn video just to even it out. Like I was like, well, like it wasn't that jerkin' off was wrong to God, it was jerkin' off to gay porn

that I thought was wrong to God, and maybe he would be okay with me or you'd proud of me for like jerkin' off to straight porn right after, so I was like, I would do both, I would have to squeeze into before my mother got home for God. So I always felt like I was watching. And now my vision of God has changed. So I bring in cameras.

What was your relationship to going to church as a kid? Every Sunday, my mom went every Sunday she was off work and even if she was working, I went with my grandma Sunday school early. Supposed to get there at 915 while I was a little late. supposed to get there at 915 where I was a little late. Just if there's time stopped by bold jangles and get a sausage biscuit. Sit in church and I sang on the choir. I led songs. I have a great voice. I felt fun in arguing in Sunday school.

I started having a slightly different view of God than my teachers at a pretty young age. So it was fun on Wednesday night prayer meetings to go and argue and have discussions. And they found me funny. So it was a big social thing too. I have fun at church. Did you look forward to going? It wasn't like you went under duress. Yeah, yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong.

There were plenty of times of where I would have rather stayed at home playing video games or football in the streets or wrestling in the backyard with my friends, but my mom insisted. And my mom even insisted that if we wanted to come in the house, she would read the Bible to us, like me and all my friends. So it was just me and a bunch of smelly boys just sitting in the din while my mom read Psalm 91 to us.

So much that I memorized it, like I can quote, certain Bible verses back very easily. And we would go on Wednesday nights playing would be disruptive by her call to get in the car, go to church, seven o'clock prayer meeting. And the kids would go downstairs and sometimes I would go upstairs and argue with the adults, you know, and once I was there, it was fun. I had fun even, you know, being bored. And I like to sing. So even singing hymns was kind of fun to me. And, you know, those discussions, those arguments were always a reason to go. I found a reason to go and to like it.

And I was active and I wanted to do more at church. I even joined the youth missionaries and I wanted to do certain outreach things and have productions and things that would keep kids interested. I was a kid myself, but I just wanted to do things that my very conservative minister shunned and shut down. And so I felt really stifled by the church, even in the perspective, it started feeling really narrow. And I still believe in God.

And I just believed in a more dynamic God. And I believed in miracles. Like I was like, okay, well, the Bible talks about miracles. I know you have to be open to receiving it. So, all right, if people can walk on water and there can be fishes and loaves, then, you know, I found little miracles in my own life when I was in tune.

I still do. And I am religious in that way. I do seek God and I try to find God because I know I'm at my best when I have Him. And my version of Him is more interior than it was in my childhood, but it's still very, I can't shake Him. And so I've stopped fighting.

And I accept God in a way that's not how my mother views God or how the church I grew up in views God, but... Not a wrathful God. Not a wrathful God, not an exterior God. Not a man in the sky, just a very personal God, a personal Jesus. How much do you think your life in church impacted who you are today? Oh, in so many ways, even aside from religion, just the the performance,

the church teaches you a lot about performance. One, how to get people excited, how to keep people's attention. There's a lot of danger in church. There's a lot of, you know, there's ways to be provocative, you know, when arguing even just like being in a Southern black Baptist church and going up and talking about Malcolm X

and like talking about the, like even in environment like that, it's like even in an environment like that, it's like seen as radical or like finding ways to say curse words. It's like, it's just like it affected me as a performer. My father teaching me how to act like I was feeling the spirit when leading a song and jumping up and down and like how people got excited and taking the mic out of the stand and walking up and down the aisles like I would walk into the court almost popped and like sometimes the bottom would separate and I would just be singing like

I could like yeah or singing without a mic because I had you know I've gone beyond the limit. My church got a wireless mic because of me I was responsible for them getting a wireless microphone. It's like the Cape routine, like James Brown's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not Macyo, what's my man's name? He comes and puts the cape on. I can't do it anymore, but like,

Jimmy Leonard, something like, is that Joey? Yeah, I can't remember what is, I can't remember. But exactly, exactly, like my dad, being from the era of performance really instilled a lot of those things in me. And yeah, you learn a lot, the minister, you know, and you can't call it a performance. That's always interesting too,

because my mom would say stuff like, oh, I thought you were feeling a spirit and I'm like, I was 11, like really? Like, you know, but it just meant I was good at it. And ministers perform and you have to put emphasis on certain things and sometimes say things that maybe you question, but you have to sell it and you have to find emotion in things and find the best, find emotion in their delivery. And I do believe that they believe what they're saying and they find a

pocket. My uncle William was such a good order. I would go to church. It's a his church just to hear him speak. And passion is important to not have people yawning and just asleep in their seat. You know, perspective is important. So like it's, it's an interesting show. I like church because it's a very interesting show. I needed, I was talking about those Sunday services that we went to, I missed those. We went incredible. Basically every Sunday for a year. Yeah. And because the music was the best part, so it was like my favorite part, a church, for like an hour, an hour and a half, my favorite part is outside. Outside, even inside in the dome,

in the room was so great, like the sound and bringing, you know, a horn section in and drums in and then sometimes you'd send amid the choir and sometimes they were in a circle in the middle and sometimes we're on a mountain top and sometimes we're in a field and it was just the greatest thing ever. And I got to send, yay songs from my childhood, like how excellent was like a song we sang in church.

And now they're doing it in this magical place and I brought my mom to Coachella, you know, to hear it, it was, it was, it was amazing. It was amazing. I cried in church for the first time in years at those Sunday services. That was very, very religious. It was a very truly religious experience. It was for him too. It was, it was everything. So important for him. Anytime you get up, do you record the set? Yes. Now. And do you listen back or not? Some sets. Some sets I do. Some sets I send to a couple of friends for thoughts. I can listen back now.

I couldn't before, when I was more of a character on stage, I couldn't stand to hear it. I realized that now. Before, I thought I was being lazy or I thought I was being, I thought it was just something I couldn't do. Go back and listen to myself. Oh, I don't do that. But it was because I recognize the falseness and a lot of it. And that's hard to hear.

It's hard to watch. It's hard to hear. If you listen back now, are you ever surprised by what you hear? Yes, I'm surprised what I say sometimes I'm surprised by stories I recall. Sometimes I tell the story for the first time on stage. I'm like, I'll have never said that to anyone before. And if I'm feeling really free, free with a focus, it is this balance between, there is work to get there, but I can let go.

If I've done the work, I can let go. And I'll find stuff all the time. That's why the performances are unique because I am having realizations on stage at my best, right my freest, I should say. It is happening. Yeah, yeah, it makes me let, now if I laugh, it's true. Like, it's not part of the act.

I'll go, oh, well, that's funny. I'll realize something might be kind of funny as I'm saying it. How was the preparation for Rothaniel different than the preparation for eight? Eight was more traditional. Eight was me on the road. I never did the road a lot because I always made specials for television.

Like, um, and, and, and, and in many ways, I was always trying to give a unique performance like each time and offer something. I always knew I wanted to offer something. And as a young comedian, I was trying to figure out what that was, and I thought it was my best jokes. And something changed in between tapings of eight, because the first set I did the show was a good show. Some riffing with the audience, and some very new moments. The first set I did the show was a good show some

Ripping with the audience and some like very new moments. I had that even in my first special like there was a Completely different set between tapings of my first special I was freer in the second one. I know that it's a part of me that I should capture You know, it's something that I that I can do so Without me being a little free of there, it's not the best show. Um, but eight, I've done the traditional set. I remember my brother coming in saying, I was great, you're playing with house money now. I remember both coming upstairs and saying,

uh, we basically got it. And it's like, really, you got it. playing with house money now. I remember both coming upstairs and saying, we basically got it. And it's like, really you got it. We got the special. And I felt like there was something else I wanted to give. Again, I'm young and I don't know how to do that. I'm trying to figure out how to do it. But I know we got a second special in an hour. And I'm gonna to figure out how to do it, but I know we got a second special in an hour and I'm gonna figure it out and I was at the Masonic temple in New York on 23rd Street and

I'm in this this like room like this with this long table and a giant gold statue of George Washington. And at the end of the long table is a bottle of Makers Mark that I brought upstairs for inspiration. And I've been drinking a little bit and then drinking a little bit more and just, you know, a called Ari and I was like, you know, like, man, you know, just trying to pour my heart out, trying to be vulnerable, just trying, just trying, like talking to Ari, because I can always be true with him

and I can always like be my total self with him. Unapologetically, I can say the wrong things to him and I trust him with my life. unapologetically, I can say the wrong things to him. And I trust him with my life. And so I called him and I'm like, by this point, I'm already slurring and I've never been drunk before. I didn't have my first drink until my mid-20s. And at this time, are you drinking to get drunk? Are you just drinking?

I'm drinking because I want to give more, and this will open me up a little bit. And you want to do something different than you did before. And yes, to get drunk, but I had never been drunk before. So you don't know what you're doing. So I don't really know what it's. It's your, you're moving into the unknown.

I'm moving into the unknown, and I don't know how much I'm drinking. I don't. Yeah, if'm drinking. I don't. Yeah, if you're not a regular drinker. I'm just talking. What is it being? I'm just tossing them back. I'm just tossing them back.

Like, my family has a high tolerance level. I've learned. And so, I'm just doing shots of whiskey, straight, call him friends, trying to cry, trying to pour something into the regular set. Not thinking, like, like, change the words, like change my intention, change the words, these are things I've learned, things I've learned in time. But like, I'm just thinking, I want to pour my heart out. I want to give them everything that's taping.

I got the words, I give something beyond words, Gerard. That's what I'm telling myself. And by the time they came to get me to go down on stairs, I don't know what hit me. I don't remember much. I just kind of, I remember stepping foot on stage we were in the round. So it's all a little weird and dreamy. Anyway, I'm in these long, weird halls and it's a weird route to the stage

and it's all walking to this room and everyone's dressed up and they're in suits and it's like you know they're plotting for me and I remember stepping on stage and I don't remember how I started the show. I don't remember. I don't remember the opening line. I don't know if that's the show that we got. Are we going to beat? No, I think that was from the first one. We might have got the intro from the first one because that was part of the plan. But I don't remember much about that show. I was told that I started somewhere,

maybe 20 minutes in, repeating jokes. From the same set. From the same set. You said within the 20 minutes before. Within the the 20 minutes before I started kind of going back and repeating things and then the first time it happened, you know, Bo loves to tell stories like at the monitors and it's like he's he catches it first, you know, by the second time it happens he looks over the exacts from HBO, 824, or the beer. And they start looking at each other.

A little strange, like, did he already say that? By the third time, everyone's like, okay, what the fuck? Everyone's like, what is happening? And I don't really know what's happening. I have like flashes from that set, but I remember feeling like I was on stage pleading, but I don't know about what. And I'm just saying things and saying things

and all of a sudden I remember hearing Bo's voice from the voice of God, like just like talking to me, basically saying wrap it up. I've been on stage for far longer than an hour and I'm like just going and it's getting weird, and Bo is calling me off stage. So at some point, I finally just, in the show,

I wrap it up, I go and collapse in the dressing room. And Bo loves to say that he says to Bill Chase, and exited, who's since since retired at HBO. He says, Hey, Bill, it was a pleasure working with you and Bill just laughed. He went, huh, and walked out. And there was some article and some, you know, guy wrote about it being the weirdest taping ever. And you would think, I got so lucky, because some of it, you would think you'd have to throw it out, but I think we used maybe 10, 15 minutes up of that set,

just because it was highly emotional, or at least read like that on camera for a stretch. Some of it's just totally unusable. And me and Paul say that someday we're gonna get drunk and watch it But but it was me trying I was really trying and then I took time off To to grow up, but I think I grew a lot in the time that I just stopped doing comedy I would try and do a show here there.

A few like eventful shows, sometimes like a charity event. I remember getting booed at the Greek theater at the start of the Me Too movement. Like doing some welfare old charity show. And you know, I'm doing sets sporadically, and then I just stop. And then Trump happened, and Trump kind of killed comedy for me, because just no one was one year, and then him, and what was the point?

And he was the greatest current event comic. Asked the other thing, like Trump was the best at, and I'm not even saying that I had personal change because of that, but I'm saying that it coincided with this happening. So, like, I felt no urge to go up and I'm going to say something funnier about the world than the president. No, it was impossible. So, and with less consequence, I would say it with less consequence.

So, but I came out to my friends at this time, that time came out to my family, and started doing free associate of therapy. Reading, a lot, sort of reading more and started working in a different way than I had before, writing in a way that I'd never written. Like, I was never really a writer. I don't think I became a writer during that time.

And, and try to grow, try to become more open, still trying. So I don't want to say like, I nailed it, but trying, just trying. And then I had a reason to do stand up again. And then I had something to say. And a new way to say it. You know, because... Do you remember the first time you got back up after that? Like after the experience of you did eight, you take time off, you're reading, you're going inside.

What's it like getting up for the first time? Were you already a different person than you were before? Yeah, yeah, I felt it and I was more, I felt prepared to say things that I'd never said before. I felt energized to say it. And the first time I got up, I went to the comedy store, and I had so much to say, and it was like baby legs. I didn't know how to run with it yet.

And I was in that room, and I relied on old tricks trying to find a punch line not living in the moment. And sometimes it's not the space I've learned that too. Just what space is I can truly work in and what I can't, that works for me now. And sometimes, my ego would lead me to the clubs. I had to check that and check that intention. And so, I went up at the store and it was a little rough but I was saying things I hadn't said before but just in a way that resembled my old style.

So, you know, that was a quick death, because Bo came and watched me one night and he was like, man, you know, like, it's just a little rough, it was very honest with me. And then one night, I remember we left dinner in the valley. And then I was like, I should go do a set. I just felt, I felt that I wanted to do it. And I went by flappers, me and him. And I had an idea of what I wanted to talk about. And Bo just was like, it was like a simple goal of just do something, say something that they'll remember. Just leave the audience with a memory. And I went on stage and I sat down and I talked about not wanting to go home for Christmas.

I was afraid to go home, but just come out to my family. Didn't go great. A lot of shame, a lot of fear was keeping me away from home. It was a good boy that always went home. Birthdays and Christmas and every holiday, especially once I could afford to. And I wasn't I wasn't going home for Christmas the first time I ever didn't go home for Christmas and I I

talked about it and after that set the ball was like, oh, we could film very soon. It was a very, very soon. And after the first set at the store, he thought, he was like, you're going to have to just go on the road for a year and figure this out. And then after that set, something clicked, something clicked, I wasn't afraid to live in the emotional stage and I was, I, and then we, that was in December of 2021. And then we filmed Rathaneo in February, 2022. Wow. Yeah.

So right after Valentine's Day, it was between Christmas and Valentine's Day. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It was like a really fast, I was there emotionally. I was ready for a change. Yeah. And then the technical part came once I was free enough to tell the truth. Yeah, it's amazing of your three specials. The growth and change between each of them is insane. It's like they're three different people.

Yeah, yeah. No, I try to learn. I do want to learn. One creatively, I always want to give something different and throw out the last thing. In some ways, even try to rebel against it, like, okay, like, well, where was that wrong? And where do I disagree with this? But if I'm true to how I change as a person and I capture that, you know, it's lightning, but if you can capture that. Watching someone grow is interesting. It's a diary entry. It's a real moment in time. If the person is interesting and you happen to be, and I first,

eight was the first thing that I saw of yours, and it completely blew my mind because it was unlike any comedy, stand-up comedy, especially I'd never seen before. And it's hard to do that because comedy, I mean, if you think of stand-up comedy specials, it's a pretty narrow genre. Yeah. I mean, different clean jokes, dirty jokes,

big stage, small stage. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But it's always, and now here he is, so-and-so and everybody applauds, and then the curtain's open and the star comes out on stage and they tell the first joke. Yeah. And that didn't happen, right?

From the beginning, right? From the opening, it it's this is strange because you don't you don't get I don't remember if there was any kind of introduction on the video but in the the perception was you're somebody sitting alone in a room and then you're on stage sitting alone in a room and then you're on stage in a close-up saying something very personal, that doesn't seem like it's a joke. And we don't even know that there's an... when I say you're on stage, we don't know that yet and we don't see any audience or hear any audience and it's just strange. It's like we've never seen anything like this before and it felt right immediately, Strange, it's like we've never seen anything like this before and it felt right immediately. It felt whatever this is, it's interesting and it's personal.

And I wanted to know more right away. It's like it opened a possibility in my mind that I didn't know, I didn't know it could be like this right right out of the box. So I love it. And I've showed it so many people, even in meetings as an example of doing something radical. It's like, look at how this starts. Well, it's funny because that was,

it's all working backward from what's true. And I'm so thankful to be able to work with Bo. One is a genius. And I'm so thankful to be able to work with Bo, one is a genius, for me, Bo. Me and Bo met, like an agent tried to introduce us at some point when he would visit L.A. when I first moved to L.A. And, you know, we never really became friends until right before my first special. And, you know, we just, we met like I saw him at a movie theater and

complimented Zach Stone because he had a show because Zach Stone was going to be famous and I love that show. And I ran up on them just even just as a fan just Hey man, I love your show. It was great. Just wanted to say hi, whatever. Then he hit me later like on Twitter when I said that Twitter and then we became friends pretty immediately Got very close because I think He's the friend I was I've been looking for for a long time Someone of what we're from we're so different, but similar circumstances, both kind of found ourselves or found something that worked and became pretty successful, pretty young and pretty quickly, and kind of lived our lives the same, like in search of experiences and we always joke

that we live. Like there was this movie called Blink Check and it was about a kid who got a million dollars like somebody hit his bike and gave him a Blink Check and he filled it in for a million dollars. And just obviously went crazy. And that's how we live. Like when we're just like at like universal studios at like, you know, 10 p.m. on a Tuesday. Like for no reason. And he understood me.

And I just trusted him. I still trust him, but it's so much like with my life. I know I said about Ari as well, but Bose, someone who I say everything to and give everything to. to say everything to and give everything to and so When we're talking about eight at first I wanted him to direct and he said no, he had it was the first thing he he directed And I said you should direct it. He was like no, he said You should get Steve McQueen a direct, right? It's just like throwing a lot out there

I hadn't even really seen anything of Steve Queen. I watched them, obviously it's incredible. I'm like, fine, I take a meet him with Steve McQueen. He says, first he says, no, I asked him. I was like, will you direct my special? He's like, he's like, no, I'm not interested in that. And then I came back to Boa. I was like, uh, Steve McQueen said, no, you gotta do it. And then he said, yes.

Steve later said, yes, and my ego wants to say that. I don't need to say that, but I want to say it, because he, you know, he saw him up. He saw him up standing up. And it was like, keep me down, but it would have been something else. I really wanted Boa to do it. Because Boa understood me and he understood,

like we kind of just trimmed the fact the things that weren't necessary to me. Again, it's for, it's just Taylor made to me and where I was at the time as a performer. And not being, again, I've always wanted to make specials for television. The first one was Spike. Didn't quite come, I wasn't bold enough

to have a complete vision of it. And I didn't know complete vision of it. And I didn't know how to implement it. And so it was like, there's some good that came out of it, but it was sort of a botched collaboration. I didn't wanna do that again. And bold just understood, like at that point, just the intro didn't make any sense. Didn't make any sense for me.

And we talked about things like that, not even viewing them as radical, radical, just viewing them as true. It was just true. And we talked about all these things and had, you know, and again, he's just very, very good and knows how to create an experience. And I am an excited and willing participant in that and You know, we make really good stuff together because of that absolutely and it's interesting too because it's it seemed I don't know him Well, you brought him out to dinner. That's one time before I knew who he was Yeah, and I remember it our whole dinner. He didn't I don't think he said one word. No, no, no, no, no, he'll listen

I got a big mouth that I'm just like, I was like, no, no. And especially in a new situation, it'll be. And I feel like his sense of humor and your sense of humor seem really different. Yeah. His comedy and your comedy are really different. Both really funny, but not in the same lane at all.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's funny because we make each other laugh a lot. Like, maybe that's why though. Maybe if it was, if you were more similar, it wouldn't be as funny. Yeah, we have just such different perspectives on life. We like to joke that even our race, like me being black, him being white,

is the least of our differences. It's like, like who we are fundamentally as people is so different. And I think we both like to listen to each other and I learn a lot from both. And I think he takes some things from me and how I've chosen to live life. And I think we complement each other well in work. Even to the point, I think he outpaced me in some ways in eight where I think from what he brought to it, he was operating at a more fluent level than I was at the time. I was trying.

I'm drunk in the back. I'm trying to figure that out. And so, you know, for Rathanya, I came more prepared, I believe, more myself to be directed without ego, with true collaboration. Yeah, I was ready then in a way that I wasn't in eight. And our friendship had grown accordingly. Even after eight, one of the reasons me and Boa friendship had grown accordingly, even after, after eight, one of the reasons me and Boa were so close is because even after that hot, hot taping, no one, no one called me out on it. Right. Because it was a little embarrassing and would have been embarrassing. And it's not like it was a consistent problem

or required intervention, but no one, no one am I like, no one who was there. But you were doing an experiment. And you were, as you said, as was said to you, you were playing with house money. You already had what you needed, and now you were looking for where, where can we go further.

True, but I still did. I did something that was bold, if not dangerous, right? But even just the fact that no one even acknowledged it. I won't even say, call me out. No one else acknowledged the, like the oddness of that night. And I woke up the next morning, and I remember just, obviously, so hungover,

and I did, oh, hello on Broadway. I had to be on Broadway that day. Like, John Mulaney and Nick Krohl show, I was like, I guessed. So, like, I'm hungover for me. And I didn't see both at whole day, but then we talked, he was on the plane. He was going back to LA.

And I started already feeling the need to kind of apologize and try and like control what it happened and saying, oh man, I hit a wall and he was like, I'm gonna stop you right there. I don't need the spin, because I was gonna, I had a cold and I was drinking a little bit, but it was also the night quilt.

You know, like, like trying to blame medicine and he was like, don't spin it for me. And I loved being called out. I didn't like it in the moment, but I really appreciated it. Because he's honest with me and is always been. Thank you for taking up with HBO, how'd that come to be? HBO was,

I was really precious about being on TV. I was really precious about being on TV. I was really precious about my first time. And for a minute, I thought I wanted to do Letterman, before Letterman retired. And I didn't want to, I would get offers from certain shows and like Lopez tonight and these things. And I just wanted it to be something else.

A very, very specific about what I wanted my it to be something else. A very, very specific about, you know, what I wanted my set to be on television. It's a miracle being on TV's a miracle, you know. And that was a Jerry Lewis quote, he's like, I don't call it TV, I call it television because it's a miracle. And I felt, I feel that way, it is a miracle. And so, you know, just kind of being a little

snobbish about it, I waited. I wanted HBO. You know, I felt like Netflix, you know, I remember having a dinner and one of my friends, or someone I worked with before, gone to work at Netflix. And I think this is even before Robbie Probe got there, who I knew from Montreal. And Netflix wanted to do a special with me, but HBO just seemed more selective. It just seemed like a more specific pool. And I liked that. I

liked that there weren't a lot. I just appreciated the curation or at least by limited number, the And I wanted that. And they had a deal with funnier dye and to do a handful of specials. And I got one of those. And so, you know, that was it. That was like Nina came to see me in LA. She had a show that went horribly because I didn't like the idea of auditioning for anything and just being rebellious artists who was like trying new stuff and riffing and whatever. And yeah, I got the special. And and I think I've maintained a relationship with them by trying new things. I'm very thankful for that partnership. I'm thankful for Nina. And I've been working with like Amy and Casey and everyone there. It's

been pretty open to my ideas, which is all you can ask for, because you still ask them for money to make a thing, and it is a gamble, and especially as my work gets more and more personal, because it's starting with like, all right, a special would spike Lee, great, right? But then it's another thing to say, hey, can I ask for money to just take some cameras

to North Carolina and shoot something with my family? It's like, what are you doing? And my work started getting more personal, Hey, can I ask for money to just take some cameras to North Carolina and shoot something with my family? It's like, what are you doing? And my work started getting more personal. And a lot of my work, even when I wasn't doing stand-up, I've made some documentaries with HBO that was me digging, just excavating my past, trying to grow, trying to figure things out, figuring out with cameras, a lot of what I'm doing now started. Then with Nina trusting me, with HBO trusting me, with money to go make something.

So it's been a good relationship. It's been really, really healthy. And I try and give them my best. I try and give them everything. Like I am like, I'm putting putting everything like my work there. I'm really, really proud of. I'm really, really proud and it's been a lot and I've experimented with other comedians and with myself and made stuff that I that excites me, you know, and I'm, yeah, yeah. How did you decide to sit for Othaniel?

I was telling stories and it made sense and Kazby said and it started making sense some of his decisions started making sense to me as I got more personal. And not sitting on a stool, I wasn't trying to be cool. And not sitting on a stool. I wasn't trying to be cool Me and both both has a Pajorod of that he throws at me when I slip back into old habits. He says you out there swagging out stop swagging out of And it allows me to feel comfortable but still

Alert and and it just felt right I set down and I was like, oh, this is how I want to tell stories. Did that happen between that first show, that boat? So the first show, Bo saw, coming back was like, I was standing up at the comedy store a million miles away. Yeah. And the next one, you're closer. Are you sitting yet or not yet? The next one I set, the next one at flappers I set, and that changed a lot. Wow, it changed a lot. Um, just funny, how something as simple

as deciding to sit or stand changes things. Yeah, yeah. It's all but it's a lot of things that pushed me into that chair. Like, like. It's all but it's a lot of things that pushed me into that cheer like like the weight of every story and what I needed to say and it just it all it all made sense it all made sense all the the influence all of it it just it started making sense. I feel like the next best you're gonna be laying on the on the stage. I'll be like you, I'll be like you, barefoot, laid out.

You're describing yourself to me as a comedian on television more than a stand-up comedian giving live shows. I mean, you don't go on tour, you rarely go on tour, you don't wanna go on tour, that's not your, you're not aspiring to go on tour, you rarely go on tour, you don't wanna go on tour, that's not your, you're not aspiring to go on tour, you're aspiring to make television. Yeah, yeah, because it just makes sense for what I wanna offer, I wanna offer a unique experience

like every time. And I don't, if I toured it, ensure I could do it for money, but it would affect the product, affect what I'm doing. And I think Chappelle does a great job of being a tour in comedian, but keeping his television appearances unique

and organic. And I do feel similar to him in that way. And that's different from how Chris rock operates in Chris always, he tells me, you know, like, oh, this wouldn't work on tour. Like, you know, just about my set. And he's right, in many ways. I could, but it wouldn't be built into it, especially when I do a lot of dates or a lot of consecutive shows.

They are just unique in their own way. They're, and you're working through the ideas. And then once they work through, there's nothing left to examine. Yes. Yes. So it's more about the idea than I'm crafting a feeling or being in touch with a feeling more than I'm crafting a joke or finding the punchline.

And so it just, it doesn't quite work in that way on tour. And I would change for audiences in a way that, I think, would compromise what makes it unique on television. That could change. I'm not saying that, like, that's permanent. There may be an interest. I'm leaving room for that.

I'm not saying, I'll never go on tour. I may be inspired to do that. But as of now, for what I want to make, I have to work and I do a lot of shows to work, but even when I do shows, it's a different thing every time, it's a different flyer, every time a different name, a different thing that I'm focused on and that's the show and that's that show and I have to let that be that show and I have to move on. What was the comedy that you remember watching on television growing up? Comic view.

Comic view every night, 10 o'clock V to some deaf comedy jam. some deaf comedy jam, Bill Cosby himself, Richard Prior I just grew up loving Don DC Curry, Seagrically entertainer. Um, was comedy your favorite thing to see on TV? Yes, yes, shows. Um, me and my mom have similar tastes and sitcoms, like the Cosby Show and everybody loves Raymond and stuff like that. We like more serious comedy, if that makes sense, like things that aren't too silly or absurd.

We laughed at things that probably weren't comedies. Probably the clearest explanation of my sense of humor is that I think the movie Minus to society is funnier than the parody movie Don't Be a Minus in Self-Central while drinking your juice in a ho, which takes elements of that. But like I think that that Things played real in reality is is fundier than you know Tell it like sometimes people are intentionally funny, you know and and I can be intentionally funny, but I just think

You know life plays out funnier. Do you do you laugh a lot in life all the time? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love. And before Rathanya, I was way funnier in my real life. I had been on stage because it was filtered and I was trying to be provocative in certain ways. And I knew for the show that I would have to sacrifice certain laughs for certain points. And I was okay with that, but I do laugh a lot in my friends are very, very funny.

But do you laugh a lot of things that might not be funny? Yeah, the absurdity of certain things, but also just funny things. And I watch things, Me and Bo love watching like Roast to me which is this all-duck digital show that has just a bunch of dudes in a room just roast in each other and it's so funny You know, it's just funny. I love that You know, but but I'll say honestly my my tolerance for that is,

and not the sound pretentious, like my tolerance. But I stop laughing when I can see you trying to tell me a joke. And so although I consume a high volume of comedy, a lot of it is critical when I watch, a lot of it is just like seeing the strings and, and, and, you know, uh, yeah, yeah, seeing the strings a lot, and, you know, it just has to be tight. To me, it has to be tied to some type of consequence to define, for it to be funny to me, like consequence free humor.

Especially if the humor is alluding to being dangerous. If that danger isn't real in some way and you can't feel it, then it just starts to lose it for me. So even in sitcom, everybody loves Raymond, you could tell it's just rooted in some reality of a dynamic and that's funnier than a space comedy. You know, for me, is I love things that lead to a lot of questions. What does that mean?

I love that. Sometimes, sometimes it's about tension, sometimes it's about saying things, and taking some leap. It's different ways. Sometimes it's about making sense of things. So yeah. When you did Rotheniel, do you think of it? I'll ask it in the most provocative way. Do you think of it as stand-up comedy?

I'll ask it in the most provocative way. Do you think of it as stand-up comedy? Yes, yes. I used to get early on in it. I would get angry with any criticism that it was something else. Or I looked at it being called something else as a dismissal because of course it is. It's a person on a stage for an hour

or whatever amount of time speaking. It is a one-man show. There are elements probably of a traditional one-man show that I incorporate, but it's still the art form. And I think, look, I want to contribute to it. I want it to grow and I want it to not be defined so narrowly. And I do it as I see it. So yeah, it is, it is for sure, for sure.

I think me and a lot of stand-up comedians do different things. I think that's okay, you know, but it is stand up. I feel like the label just, to me, the labels just make it smaller. It's like you can use it to organize a genre. For some reason, I think of it as the label making it smaller. Like, is it... It's like if a comedian gets on stage and does an hour and doesn't tell any jokes and nobody

laughs, is it stand-up comedy? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. No, I don't know. No, the side of it is, though, if you don't, if you take the label away, was that a compelling performance, and do you want to see that? Are you excited by it? Do you like the different, you know, the fact that it's different?

And then the, the laughs may come, you know, I mean, it's like, what's interesting about the dice album, the day the laughter died, is that like, is that it, what is it, and what it is in the room is different than what it is on record. Yeah, the tension of the people not like playing it. It's funny now, it's so funny. It's part of the show, so he gets credits for playing that show in a way that's interesting. You captured an interesting, funny thing.

It is funny. Just, they're multiple ways in. And it shouldn't be the same thing over and over. It can't be. It can't be. It won't die. It won't die. It won't die. And I see stand-up comedy sometimes and I mean, not the sound gross, but it just seems dead sometimes. I'm like, it just feels

so dead and I don't want to shoot it. Like, you know, I want to, I want to like, I want to feel alive and I want the art form to be alive. When did you originally fall in love with reading? Mr. Nairi, my eighth grade teacher, who I didn't want because he was loud. And seventh grade, he had the classroom next door to me and I didn't want him. I was like, anybody but him.

Of course, I get him. I asked my mom if I could switch teachers, didn't want anything to do with it. Like anything that starts like that, of course, he's a teacher that changed my life and and got me to read the autobiography of Malcolm X, which is huge, and two newspaper articles every day, if that was a requirement for his class, you had to read and be informed. And two things that you, not special interest, not your, you know, with the boys, read from the sports section or anything, like something that you didn't know anything about. And so like, you know, the finance section or the world section. Find something interesting. Find something interesting. Read two articles, you had to write about it every day.

And so that began me reading, just like the habit of reading. And it's um, you know, habit that I picked up often on the years when I was probably only reading Wikipedia page entries. But then, you know, later in life, even more recently, I was working with Scott Rude Scott Rooton owned something and he sent me a novel and I never really read fiction and That picked up like it picked up again. I was like very very interested in reading and then I The ball the the George Saunders book, a song in the pond in the rain, just with a collection of Russian short stories.

And that changed stories telling for me. Like, that was huge for me. It's a great class and a book. And it's just incredible. And I'd never told stories before then. And a lot of changes in my life, therapy, and that book. And it's one of the things that really pushed me to understand stories and tell them.

And when was that? Recently, a couple years ago, but like as far as storytelling, but I've been reading and that book was just one that I grabbed and then that changed the direction of like, you know, of the types of books that I wanted to read. And now my boyfriend is a writer and,

and I mean, he reads so much and I feel so far behind. It's exciting because he has me reading things that I never would have picked up and things that excite me. And sometimes we read together and sometimes he reads to me. It's been very important to me. The George Sanders story is interesting in that you didn't read it looking for you didn't read it looking for information to help your work you just randomly picked it up yeah You read it and it changed your whole approach to what you do.

Completely, completely. I didn't know what the story was. I didn't know what the requirement of a story was. Like, what do people look for? And I usually didn't tell them, I would give facts about an event, but then mostly commentary. I would give facts about an event, but then mostly commentary. I would give commentary.

My whole life is just like, a fight happened at school. This is where I was, you know, this time. But just like that told me, you know, what to look for and where you could look and let a story can come in different forms and that it's not always like neat and semi-linked to that book. For sure.

I love to see that. I love it and it's a re, it's, he's released another book since then, but it's, the book before is most recent one and it's incredible. And he gives lessons on the story in the book. So it's a lot of like, toll story, toll story or just all these Russian authors. I think they're seven. And he's a teacher, Syracuse, a professor in Syracuse

and he basically gives a class in the book and I'm so thankful for it. Even without the class, without the collection of the stories themselves, even because at first I wasn't even reading his lessons on it. I was just re- it was a good excuse to read the stories. And it just game changing for me. That sounds great. Yeah, yeah.

Do you think you're more inspired by comedy or music or movies or reading or something else? I get really obsessed with the thing, and it kind of becomes all I can talk about a reference. And it could be, it's different things. Sometimes it's centered on a person. Like recently, it was all things JFK just obsessed with it. What started that? I've always kind of had an obsession with him. And like, my boyfriend really put me,

put into context like the importance of Camelot or the idea of JFK culture now and how it all kind of began with like, you know, the idea of him and Jackie and, you know, our cultural obsession with his life and how it was documented and how it ended and then the secrets and how all those things coming out. So you kind of learn about a person and I was always obsessed with his in many ways, like the duality of him, like him and Martin Luther King, just obsessed as much with the secrets of their lives and the affairs and JFK's pills or Martin Luther King's

suicide attempts and these things that are kind of buried and the idea of their lives. And so I've always been interested in things with the like peeking behind the curtain. And it's probably my father. But it's also getting back to closer to authenticity and the truth, not just the surface narrative that's presented, but the real story is much more interesting. Yeah, yeah. And I saw that reflected in myself keeping a secret and feeling like I'm kind of that and my father, who I've knew about his secrets early on and seeing how he was received in

the world and weighing that against the things that I knew. So always like obsession with secrets and lives like that. So being obsessed with JFK means that I'm watching the Oliver Stone documentary. And then my boyfriend buys me the book on the Lee Harvey Oswald Frank Delio. Frank Delio. And things out. No, I can't remember. The Delio book on, oh, I haven't read yet, but in, and there's a documentary called

Primary that follows J. of K through the Wisconsin primaries and like it's just incredible and so I'm watching that and I'm just, just like just, then I go to Ireland, you know, and I stay in the hotel that he stayed in Ireland and, you know, just feeling real connected to him. And that may play out when I was with you in Italy, I was Julius Caesar. Wow. Well, I was just obsessed with Caesar and reading things Caesar and reading things Michelangelo too and like obsessed with these people and that kind of leads me there,

like leads me to Rome and I just find these obsessions and so obsessions like that kind of play out in my life and art around those things, someone recommends a movie or someone recommend, you know, like, you know, I'm constantly obsessed with Jesus Christ so that that could mean the Bible or Scorsacy you know, like, you know, I'm constantly obsessed with Jesus Christ. So that could mean the Bible or Scorsese and Willem Default.

You know, it just, just give us see bad boy, Bubby. You recommend that you watch it. Bubby is incredible. The opening of bad boy, Bubby before he leaves the house is terrifying. Terrifying. It's such a feeling. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I remember a friend of mine brought me to see that movie. And in those first five or 10 minutes, whatever it was, I just said to him, like, why did you bring me to this? Why am I seeing this? Yes. I don't want to see this. You can't believe it.

You can't believe it. Yes. Then what it turns into is so interesting. Yes. What has you? It's telling such such an audacious story in such a truthful way because there's one thing to be audacious and then you know capturing it absurdly to save it to you know and then that wouldn't have been as effective. This is like just played out as true. The reality of his life.

And that's so interesting. And the movie has you. Have you ever seen Julia DeCarnel's Raw? A bowl is obsessed with that movie. And then I watched it. And yeah, I mean, again, it's a story that could be in less capable hands, which just you'd be able to dismiss it as like a, you know, some gruesome tale, but because it's treated so honestly, you know, indelicately.

It's just, it's, it's, it's fascinating. I have a hard time watching unpleasant stuff. I kind of want to feel that way. Same, same, same. I like watching, I want to feel peace. But that's why capable hands can take you to unpleasant places. I mean, you look at Quentin Tarantino. You know, what makes his, his, him brilliant is that he finds these interesting tense moments in, in very unpleasant stories. And you laugh. And you laugh and you feel and you can be carried through this

grossiness and also like a campiness about it that makes it okay. Yeah, a little bit safer. Yeah, it feels like it's done with a wink in some way. Yes. Yes. Which funny, because I wouldn't think I would like that, but I really do. Well, because he does, I mean, you know, it's balanced, right? Because, and you take like Django,

that's such a feat. Like anytime people talk about, like when you can, you can't do, I'm like, there is a white man who's so good that he has the funniest slave movie. You know, and like, and it's something that like, you know, a black filmmaker should have made, a black filmmaker should have made a Django, right?

Because you know, black people are hilarious, but like a lot of times, you know, it's treated so delicately and that you know, too much respect. It's too much respect. Yeah, it's not. And Jango's hilarious and true. And true, like you know, played so realistically

and it's horrible and disgusting conditions. And then moments of levity, moments, where it's like, you know, what was that thing on that horse? Or, you know, just these very funny moments. And yeah, yeah, you can do anything. You can do it. Was social media already a thing

when you were coming up, already doing comedy? Um, it was beginning. It was, I started in the, in the Dane Cook boom. Dane Cook had, you know, made millions. And so that meant that when you signed up for the open mic at the improv, they had a space. I remember you have your name and it would say myspace.com slash for you to fill in your

my space. This is 2008. And you know, it was always that expectation. When I came up, it was the beginning of that. I hadn't met Bo yet, but he was, you know, made his living from YouTube. There were examples of that happening in comedy was shifting in that way. And honestly, if I waited maybe two years, I might be a different comedian because I might have stayed home and I was already making videos with my friends. And it's funny because I see in some young comedians that make content, maybe for YouTube

or Instagram with TikTok, I see myself and things that I made just not for the internet, but just recorded on my camcorder. I'm like, oh, yeah, we made sketches like that. And in that way, and the improvising you have to do when you're at home and your resources are just your family and your friends and the neighborhood. And I might have been a different comedian two years later. Yeah. But I'm glad I came in when I did, because I also came up on stages.

So it is true to me to perform in that way. But yeah, it was big. I kind of rebelled against it, because I just, I was like, I'm doing live performance. I just want to make that my thing. And I didn't want to service like two masters. Like, I'm like, would be a distraction. Well, if I'm filming myself, then let's do it for real.

Like, I don't want to just have like, I was precious with when the Lafactor um, started a YouTube channel, they would just put comedians videos up there and I hated that. I used to get mad. I would call the office until like, I saw it was getting like good comments or something. I'll go, okay, you can keep it up. But I would get mad because I was very precious about it. I was like, if I'm going to film this, then I'm going to film it. I don't want to have to do it. I don't want to kind to do it. I was like if I'm going to film this then I'm going to film it

I don't want to have to do it. I don't want to kind of do it. So Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't I didn't film sets. I didn't post things. I still don't have a website a friend Asked me the other night if I had a website. I was like, oh no, I don't I still don't and I should I'm probably I've taken it probably too far, but I just don't want to service it, so I don't think about it. Yeah. When you were coming up,

did you see any comedians that just blew your mind? Well, my first thought is Angelo Bowers, who was a comedian from Modesto, I was talking about him earlier today. Is a comedian from Modesto, I was talking about him earlier today. He's a comedian from Modesto who dropped out of college, moved to LA, was young, around my age. And he worked so hard, how hard he worked, inspired me because he did a new set all the time. Sometimes he went bomb and that was as interesting as watching him kill. Like it was because he worked so hard and that was as interesting as watching him kill.

Like it was because he worked so hard and it was new and you could see that he was trying. And I mean, Angela was so strange. I loved it. In LA, he would sit on the subway all day and write jokes in the subway because he didn't have cell phone service down there and he didn't want to be distracted or he would go to the borders on sunset and vine and just work all day. So I started going to the Barnes and Noble at the Grove

and we called it our office and we respected each other's office. He would text me if he was going to the Grove, he's like, hey, I'm going to be at your office today. If you, you know, I wanted to give you your space. Like, and we worked really hard and we became, like, like, a duo in the open mic scene in a way, like, it was like, Gerrida and Angelo. Like, we rose really, really fast because we both worked really, really hard.

We dedicated our lives to it. We did nothing else. We had no, no normal life. Like, you know, I remember mocking a comedian who asked another comedian where a hookah bar was. I was like, what do you do? You had made it, like, smoking hookah. Oh, my God.

Like, I occasionally went to the movies and Angelo took Saturdays off, so I took Saturdays off too. I kind of followed his schedule. Tell me about, tell me about Barnes and Noble is your office, what, what the experience was like. That was where I would go and read, read, um, and just write, uh, just write, and I was writing more, just traditional jokes at the time,

but it was being fed by a lot of books, just things I would normally read by our graphies of people I didn't know about or I would go into the self-help section because I would normally mock those things so I would read it. and magazines and just read things and then write. And it was where you could find me, you know, wake up, go on a walk, hit the barn to know we'll read, read, read, write, write, write, go to an open mic and perform. And it became so much my office that

my first audition was for this TV show called New Girl on Fox. And I just got managers and they were like, you should go on auditions and I figured I'd go to learn, like I'll learn how to audition or whatever. And I was like, but I told them at the beginning, I was like, yeah, I'll do it just for the sake of learning, but I don't want the part. And they said, yeah, yeah, okay, do the audition. I did it. They liked me. They called me back

again. I said, okay, well, look, I'll go to this callback. But for the experience of knowing what a callback is, I don't want to do this TV show. They said, yeah, yeah, okay, go back. I do it. Now all of a sudden, I'm getting calls from a lawyer. My manager's like, I'm connecting you with this lawyer. He's going over your contract. You have an offer, they offer me this part for a show. And I'm like, I don't want this. One of the guys I was on the show, Max Reinfield. I know he has to remember this.

He, like, I turned it down. He came to the Barnes and Noble. We brought this comedian, Kevin came to the Barnes and Noble, we brought this comedian Kevin Christie to Barnes and Noble and they were having an intervention with me. Like just like at the Barnes and Noble, just being like, hey, what you're doing is crazy, you're turning down like, forget the money. I mean, they were talking more,

I'm sleeping on a couch at this point. I'm sleeping on this woman Lisa's couch. I They're saying I mean maybe like I could have made half a million dollars of some some crazy amount I went from zero dollars to half a million dollars like by signing and I just didn't want the part I didn't see it as part of what I wanted to do. And they're at the bars and I'll be like, you're crazy, you're crazy.

I'm like, I know, thank you, but. Amazing. But yeah, they came to my office to try to convince me to do new girl. But I wanted to just sit there and read and write and I had an open mic that night. I remember I was starting to get shows. Did the fact that there were other people in the Barnes

and Noble was that part of it too? Was it the fact that there were people coming and going or was it just you and people watching? It was definitely some people watching, but always, and that was walking around. LA was such a new experience for me and especially being a southern boy and moving out, it's the first place I lived

outside of home and so everywhere just walking up and down, sunset, walking around Hollywood. That was just all mine and just walking around and seeing all the, you know, AHS ads and the billboards and the homeless people and the transients and drug addicts and the wildness of those streets. Just seeing it all played out was so new to me and magical in a way. And a lot of my earlier comedy reflected that, just the things that I was seeing, like, you know, wrote a lot about homeless people because I'm walking amongst them, you know, and I'm kind of homeless myself. And writing a lot about wealth and poverty and it was aspirational because

it was just the reality of my experience. It was every day just walking and I walked every day. I didn't have a car in LA. I was just walking everywhere or catching the bus and just sitting in bookstores and writing. That couldn't sustain. That was great work ethic, but even that, I needed to live life and experience the rises and crashes of relationships to even have anything to say and explore even my past

to even have something deeper to say. But at that time, it served me well. It was the Army. It was the Army, it was college, it was just work, work, work, complete focus and dedication, no distractions, they can go home, I just work. What was the difference in the things that you noticed that were different

about where you came from versus when you came that late. The first things you notice of like what's different. It's weird because you know, where I'm from, I lived in Morningside and it was me and people like me and that was it. And being in a small town, you live in these bubbles. And my whole existence took place basically in Morningside. And you know, we had a, I had a black principal and we went to the black dentist and the black pediatrician and

Lifted in this bubble would there have been a Barnes and Noble there. No, there was no Barnes and a little more They're like tell me what the pretty boys main street. I actually can't even tell you a bookstore Damn, I hate that. I Can't tell you a bookstore, but I'm not a bin one Yeah, not that I know there was there were libraries and but it just wasn't, you know, we really just read the Bible. But it was the things of that neighborhood. There was a food lion, then they built a new food lion, and there was a family dollar. And my grandma lived on Pleasant Street, and I lived on the street right off of that Marble

Street. I lived on Pleasant Street and I lived on the street right off of that marble street and my aunt lived around the corner and you could walk her bike everywhere. I could ride my bike most places in the hood, my school, my elementary school for us park, my grandma was a cafeteria lady there and so my mom would drop me off at her house in the morning. I'd wake up at five and then we'll go to school with my grandma and like it was all in the neighborhood. How many kids in your school? My elementary school was pretty big. I want to say it was around a thousand kids but it was just all black kids. The black kids, the Mexican kids, I think there

was a few white teachers and a couple white students here there. And then my middle school also like same thing, just mostly black teachers and black kids. And then my high school was a different world because it was black and white. And it was like 50, 50, and that was like a completely different experience for me. And good or bad? Good. What taught me a lot, because I'll tell the really short version of the story. I experienced a different type of freedom than I had before. And I went to this mixed high school in ninth grade and then

in 10th grade my friends were going to Parkland high school. It was like the black school and named after the hospital that Kennedy, Dina. And I went because all my friends were going and so I went for four days. It was a crazy four days because I forgot how I was treated. It kind of looked at suspiciously. I remember the things that I hated where they're being a chain outside of the cafeteria for no student could cross and at Glenn the mixed high school kids just left all the time. We went to Burger King for lunch. We drove around like a hot a ride to McDonald's or whatever and And you had more freedom. It was kind of like a college campus. And here was more like a prison.

But do you think it was the age that you were or the fact that it was mixed? I think it was the fact that it was mixed because it was just more trust. It was just more freedom. I felt that I saw that. I had a truancy offer so once, again, we would sneak to go to Burger King.

And you weren't supposed to leave campus, but it was just an understood fact that students did in whatever. And I remember sneaking to my car to go to Burger King, me and some friends, and driving out and then being cut off by the sheriff's car. The officer got out, this black officer. And he was like, you know what, I stopped you.

And I was like, I was like, why? Cause we going to Burger King. He was like, nah, he said, you see those white girls over there? They going to Burger King too. But y'all look suspicious about it. He's like, y'all sneak it around in the parking lot. Of course I'm gonna stop you. He's like, if you're gonna go, just go.

And so it was like, it was a big lesson learned, but that was a huge thing for me just at Glent. So that's why I left Parkland after four days. I got my transfer. After I saw that chain, I was like, oh, no, no, I'm going back to Glent where I'm free. And like, you know, and it was an interesting experiment because it's like have people from my hood

in Mornaside and have like, you know, kind of suburban or rural white kids and sometimes we got along, sometimes there were fights and race related fights and but I learned a lot. But I said all that to say that that was my first experience of clashing of cultures and clashing of, and no money. And LA was so much of that. It's so much of a Lamborghini zoom in past, a homeless man, or my first time downtown, it's just crazy because there's new restaurants, Christmas lights next to heroin addicts. And it was just wild. And just seeing all of that happening and playing out on the streets. I knew crackheads and I saw violence in my hood,

but it was separate from the money in New York, the same type of craziness, just like wealth and poverty played out next to each other. It was just wild. And so LA was just, it was Disney World. It was just Disney to me. It was all absurd. It was all crazy. It's, you know, so I had a lot to write about. Sounds great. Yeah, it was exciting. It was great adventure. Very, very exciting. Yeah. I remember the first time I came to LA. I think the first time I came in LA. I

Think the first time I came in LA was with the Beastie boys. Really really fun. Just had a really fun experience This is fresh from the dorm. This is like a restroom probably still living in the dorm really yeah Super fun. Yeah super fun Do you remember your dreams? I always had dreams that I had specific dreams that I knew if I achieved that, it meant a whole lot of other things. For instance, I wanted to be Michael Jackson's comedian friend. Like, I was like, oh, okay, the way Eddie Murphy was and then Chris Tucker was, I'm going to be Michael Jackson's comedian friend. Then he died within a year of me moving to LA and I was devastated.

I was like, where's my dream? I was part of what, that was one of my, because I knew if I was that, then that probably meant success in so many other ways. And, and, and, yeah, I had like, I always really specific goals, you know, my first special was a goal. I wanted, I wanted a special on HBO, and I wanted a show on NBC.

I remember those being goals. I, you know, a special on HBO, because this were the cool people at Specials and NBC, because this was where Cosby and Seinfeld shows. And it seemed like the right time, because I was like, oh, okay, it's been a while since like they had like a comedy, like a really personal specific, you know, interesting comedy on NBC and I can be the one that do that.

You know, and I remember reading that Jerry Seinfeld said that it was his intention to save NBC because he saw that Bill Cosby said it. So I kind of set the same intention. You're in the lineage. Yeah, I felt like, okay, I'll be in that lineage. And I knew I could only do it by, you know, bringing some of my life to it. And that's how I made the show. And I didn't do it. But it was a goal.

I was like, oh, that'll be nice to just, it wasn't to save, but just to make a good show for him, he said, I wanted to make the best show for him. He said, I understand that. Like, I know that in the music world, if you could see something that you made, come out on the same label as Led Zeppelin, or Bob Dylan, it's like, to big deal that you made come out on the same label as Led Zeppelin or Bob Dylan. It's

a big deal that you can't believe. It's like, wow, look, our labels look the same. You're saying that in front of you. That's so cool. That sense of history. Sense of history. And a responsibility, because again, I do love it. Anything that I do, I've been a student of and a deeply immersed fan of. And so, like, I want it to be as good as the things that are good. And so you feel this responsibility to uphold that, you know? Yeah. I like that.

Yeah, I love hearing you say that. I mean, we have that in common. This desire to make great things at all, whatever it takes, or whatever it takes for it to be great. Otherwise, why make it? Why make it? But that's what, that's like going back to like live things in the globes or SNL, it's like, all right, like,

it's just such a miracle that go live in front of millions of people. That's like a chance, you have a chance. When did you get asked to do SNL? I got asked to do SNL. Someone from SNL saw me maybe a couple weeks before filming Rathanyl. So I got asked to do it based off they saw like the sets I was doing at at City Winery.

And and and so that's why I got SNL. based off they saw the sets I was doing at City Winery. And so that's why I got SNO the night before Rathanya came out. So I did SNO April 1st, Rathanya came out April 2nd. Wow. Just based off the sets leading up to it. And I wanted Rathanya'll be its own thing. And so it was like kind of, you know, I didn't want to distract from it,

but I wanted to promote it. And so I just want to make it. That's an only unique thing and rise to the occasion of it. How was the experience? It was good. It was good. The monologue I didn't have until Honestly, I'm still working on it at dress rehearsal and

Then did it live but again the excitement of live I kind of needed it for that to even settle Same thing with the globes. It's I'm playing a Spiritual game of musical chairs testing everything seeing if it's true, seeing if it's right, sometimes I feel the urge to be chaotic. And I'm like, what is that? I have to question that, I have to question it. And is it have to do with what's going on inside yourself or the environment? What do you, what do you, what's the feedback loop? My place in it, Where do I belong here?

Why am I here? What is the experience for somebody watching it? Even seeing me, like in SNL, I'm just like, I know this has to be wild because I did SNL. I'm hosting SNL. Coming off of nothing. Yeah.

So if you're watching SNLs for the middle of the country, you know, I hadn't had a special out in four years. I made some small documentaries, like, produced a couple things with very quiet up until then. So it's fun to kind of see it as an audience member and go, Oh, some people are like, well, who is this? And so I'm kind of explaining myself most. Yeah, yeah, some people are like, well, who is this? And so I'm kind of explaining myself most. Probably most. Yeah, most of like, you know, that's an exciting position to be in.

I know I'm in that position. How do I speak to it? How do I make it, you know, this live experience worthwhile? Just trying to figure that out and that that takes being live to feel you kind of have to feel it in that moment. Because otherwise it would be performance. It would be performance. And my performance is the truth of where I am in that moment. That is my performance. So I have to connect with it.

Yeah, I remember seeing that. I haven't watched SNL for a very long time and I don't find it funny anymore. Yeah, but your monologue was like, whoa. SNL could be good. Because I was a little mad, I was a little angry that I had to even Talk about it. That was true. I was just a little

Like and I was excited to be there all these things are true I was excited and felt pushed into it and then wanted to rebel against that and and so it was just Not to beat the reference to death, but it is this game of musical chairs that's happening right up until it's live, no delay. So interesting that tight rope walk aspect of comedy. And I guess it's always that way when you're getting up in front of a bunch of people,

strangers, it's a that way when you're getting up in front of a bunch of people strangers. Yeah, it's a hectic idea. Yeah, yeah. And I had to over time, like even reexamine that my relationship with the audience. Um, so, uh, I got, I got people hitting me about Rothaniel, mostly by people who didn't know we were friends. Yeah. And it was like, have you seen this thing? You have to see this thing. This is the greatest thing I've ever seen.

Like this is it. And then I have other friends who are comedians who are just like, what is he doing? It's like, what is that? That's like, that's, why would he put that out? You know, like just like the, so you get to see these like the poles of people who are going in with no expectations

being blown away. And then the people who have some sense of authority because they're experts in this, seeing it as, well, that's not what we do. Yeah, yeah, which is a response that I got and kinda used to, I think comedians probably as a community, I don't want to label all because I do think I received a lot of love from the community. It took me a while to realize that.

But I think it's received with some, you know, quite, it feels like I release Jesus every time. It feels like two comics, I feel like I just kept releasing Jesus. And they're like, what is that or 808 to something that people are just like, what? Like every time. Which I've learned to take is a good sign. You know, times that it's hurt and hurt my feelings before. But I know that's part of it. If I want to do something different and I know, I know that that's not always just received with just hugs.

You know, like, and that's just that's part of it. That's, you know, you kind of have to be hated to be the favorite. Yeah, it's one of the things I say in the book is that if everybody likes it, you're not going hard enough. Yeah, yeah, it's just not. And I know that, and it doesn't mean that it feels, any better, it doesn't feel good tonight. Yeah.

The thing that I think I, it can't be angry with, or the thing that I, if I were to explain anything, because I don't think it should be explained, or ever, but I would say that Rothenio is a feat only because I was really afraid

to say the things that I was saying. The danger was in me walking on stage, this is why, and, and, and, bow really distilled that in the intro, like, the, the walk to the stage is very important in, in, in Roth Annual because I, I had reluctance, I had a lot of fear. I had reluctance, I had a lot of fear. And it was hard, it was hard. And so, I couldn't fake that, you know, I tried to be brave enough to do it in my own life. I'm not even saying, oh, it's so brave coming out.

I was scared, rather like, you might be scared about something else. Yeah. Like, whatever you were afraid about, I was praying, a lot of Roth Annual is to my mother. And so, you know, I'm saying the thing, I didn't wanna say to the person whose reaction scares me the most.

And I think if it's interesting, it's because of that. Has she watched it? Yes. Has she told you, has she said anything? Yes. It's almost like she kind of blocked out the parts of it that And I get that because it was hard for me to say it so I know it must have been hard for her to hear some of it but The initial call and subsequent calls largely ignore

A lot of the parts about me feeling ignored ironically enough so And and and look it came with consequences like you know Relationships are still being repaired because of it I was just in Dylan's up here line and talking to my uncle Joe about it and my cousin about it and they saw it and we talk about it because his personal is my family and it's me and it's you know and so the one thing you know that I would say to to comedians is that it that I would say to comedians is that it was very scary to me. And it's like, I could say, I spent my career saying all the dangerous stuff, all the things you

can't say about different races or sexuality, even I've talked about gay people and trans people in my act before. You know, I got booed at the Greek talking about the Me Too movement and its infancy, you know, all the dangerous things, I did all the dangerous things. And that wasn't truly dangerous. I knew that, at least for me, it didn't feel truly dangerous. But there were things in my life that I was afraid to say. And I said the differences in the other, you were touching societal hot buttons.

Yeah. And in this one, you're touching personal hot buttons. Yes. Oh, that was way scarier. Way scarier. Well, I could say something about the personal hot buttons feel like life and death. Yes.

Yes. I'm talking to my mother in front of God, as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. And HBO. And HBO. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I think that's why it's so compelling and real that the emotion is palpable and it's real and it's not acting and we don't get to see real emotions so often on television. We get to see real stakes real personal whether it's real love or real fear or real

Anything it's all facade. It's all performance. It's all fake And this was not fake Yeah, yeah, it was it was It's all performance. It's all fake. And this was not fake. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was, I don't know, I've dedicated my life to this. So I have to give all of it. And yeah, it makes the reward. I'll tell you though because it doesn't you know it was funny because it was a probably like the highest that felt and the lowest that been almost at the same time. It's hard. I'm so happy for it's success and I'm terrified to talk to my family and still like kind of healing those wounds. I'm very happy I made it, but you know, that's the thing with if you really go there and art, it is life and death and all consuming and it's the stakes are high.

Yeah, the stakes are high. Now, they may are high now. They may not be high for everybody But they're high for you. Well, that's the thing. I also Didn't change anyone else's life. Well also where I was maybe get offended by a comedian you know Who may have had some negative thing? I'm like, I've never done the same thing is The other comedians anyway. I'm like, I've never done the same thing as the other comedians anyway. I'm like, like, you know, our differences lie across the board, you know?

So I, you know, I think the attention that it got attracted, you know, a lot of podcast comments here, I guess. But again, I do expect it. I do expect it. I'm not even trying to sound cool about it, but it, because it still isn't the most comfortable thing, but I do it. You wouldn't take it back.

No. Oh God, no. That's what I'm saying. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You, you, you, you committed to it and you're proud that you committed to it. Yes. And whatever happens after that, that's out of our control after. Yeah. Yeah. And you kind of, you know, I'll just kind of let, you know, time is going to play things out. How important. And people's reactions usually have more to do

with who they are and where they are than anything about what you're saying. Yes. What you're saying triggers something in them about their life that they have to confront. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

I think some comedians may have received it as an indictment of their own work, you know. Um, I would say after watching that, it would be hard to watch someone sitting on sage telling jokes and take it very seriously. sitting on sage telling jokes and take it very seriously. Yeah, I mean, you know, again, it's like, it also that also the movie, that could be the movie. Like, I'm like, like, even me, like, like, I almost could be inclined to just completely rebel against Rathanean and go like, all right, my next one's all one line or so.

Like, and like, you know, it's not true to where I'm at or what I find interesting, but it's an interesting idea. It's an interesting idea. Like, I'm sexually, it's like, okay, that was then and now we're going to announce some new things. And I do have to be open to that. I can't absolutely stay in the pocket because I don't want to say, and I'm not there. I'm not in the same, I was in a really low place when I made Rathanya

and it was trying to see light or make something of it. I'm not in that space anymore. And if I recorded a special tomorrow, it would be totally different already. And so I have to be true to that. And I still enjoy, you know, if done great, you know, I can enjoy a joke as much as the next guy. You know, I still love a good joke. Still tell, just tell some joke.

I tell some jokes at the globes, you know, you know, some people that find all of them very funny, but I still ask them. Tell me what was some of the globe jokes. All the globe jokes, I mean, I had things that were, I said, they asked me, they came to my dressing room and asked me to, uh, shout out, uh, uh, the hotel they wanted me to like, you have to say something about the Beverly Hilton. So I went on stage and said, hi, everybody wanted me to shout out the hotel. So here we are live from the place that kill Whitney Houston. That's funny. That's funny to me. It's like, do you not think of the Beverly Hilton as

the hotel that kill Whitney Houston? Like, just the first thing I think of, as soon as I walk into building, I'm like, what's the room number? I wanna see it, I'm infatuated with it. And so I thought that was funny. The audience didn't really respond to that. So they groaned, youed, but that makes it worthwhile a little bit.

That's me being a real comedian. I did a, I should say it because I don't want to say it now, so that means it's something there. But the little joke about Will, because it's like the first major award show since the Oscars. So obviously I have to chime in on it and I didn't want to do it in the monologue. So I did a little joke through the ceremony there. They got some groans and I...

Yeah, I did jokes that I I written that I thought were funny. I'm like, oh, this is funny. And it was the occasion for it, you know, and then I said it and you know, I did my little provocative jokes, but you know, it's not the same as the monologue. The monologue meant something to me and the jokes. I didn't have to tell. I didn't need to tell them. But it's a fact. meant something to me and the jokes. I didn't have to tell, I didn't need to tell him but the situation's gone for it.

If it asked you back, would you do it again? My friend Ari said that I should say yes and he always has a, no, no, no. He says that about like if they asked me to do like the Oscars. He's like, you should do it. You know, but I don't think I would do the globes again, because I did it.

The same reason I, I couldn't see myself doing SNL again, because I, I did it and I really did it. You know, like I really gave it my all, like, there's no, yeah, there's no mountain to climb. No, no, no, there's no reason. And I came at a really unique time and I spoke about it in the most honest way that I could and it's over. I wouldn't want to do it again.

And there could be, I only pause, cause yeah, it depends on where I'm at. Like I never know. It could be something pressing and it could be like it was last year where there's a confluence of things that make me motivated to do it, but just to do it again, no, I wouldn't want to.

Anything else you feel like we missed? I don't know. I feel like we, I feel like we talk. I feel like we sound like us, not on the podcast. That feels good. It's normal. Yeah. Normal conversation.

Who's the music in your house growing up? A lot of gospel. My mom, my mom, for the most part only listens to gospel, with some Whitney Houston sprinkled in and maybe some Elton John. My dad listened to the radio a lot growing up, so it was a lot of that. And then I remember two huge things were like an eighth grade, I'd discovered Stevie Wonder, game-changing, got the at the close of the century box set and just listened to all of those and we'll say, oh, he's got, like, like having that. And a brother who introduced me to Jay-Z,

and I have a big brother who's eight years older to me. And he had great taste, so I had great taste by proxy and he's the guy you want to introduce you to an artist because it's how I play Jay-Z for my boyfriend. It's like what a lot of pauses. Like, did you hear what he said? Did you talk it out? And Jay-Z is so conversational and so witty

that we kind of memorize all of his lyrics and kind of speak in Jay-Z. There's always a verse for everything. And Joe loved, he bought the priority records, reasonable doubt. Remember, he had that cassette with the original dead presidents and just loved them. In North Carolina, you know, and at a time when everyone was on cash money and no limit and, you know, the South Head, its own thing. Joe was just like such a big jay fan and it influenced me hugely, hugely. And when I finally got to introduce my brother to Jay, Jay, it was like, thank

you. He said thank you to my brother, which Jay so smart. He knows how to make a moment. Everyone will remember forever. And he said, said thank you for him, you know, like in his dressing room before a show. And Jay's just being so witty and so important to me. In my view of the world, I learned so much about the world, the authenticity in what he's saying. It's unbelievable. Well, he's a big influence in that way.

In the way that J's whole thing is, and I'm not lying, like all my rhymes are true, and they are, and there's, you know, he takes his liberties in storytelling here and there, but reasonable doubt is so autobiographical, and so it's 444, and Jay at his best, it makes his real life feel like an epic. He's so good at telling us.

And it is. He finds out the epic about it. And he extracts that. And it is so good at telling the truth. And I want to be really good at telling the truth. And he talks about things that he's not proud of. Yes. And you can hear him talk about how he got to be in that position.

And the regret. The regret. Well, some things that he regrets and things that aren't. Bowen, I had this rule, when making Roth Annual, it's like the only way that this can stand a chance at being cool is if I don't try to be cool at all. Like I just couldn't try to be cool. My friend Lionel says that about Jay-Z.

Actually he says that like any messed up with Jay is that he's so naturally cool. If he tries, it's not cool. Jay can't try to be cool because he just is cool. So he has to just be. And I learned that trying to be cool was, I mean, just horrible for me, it's horrible for anybody, but like, but, you know, especially in a situation where I felt vulnerable, it's easy to want a lean on masculinity and bragging and a certain harshness to feel safe. It's armor or jokes, but it's a comedian. Like this joke is how I'll stand behind this joke.

But that was me trying to be cool, it was me swaggering out. I had to get rid of that. And, you know, Jay at his best is saying some uncool things. He was an emotional rapper, you know, you know, at a time where that wasn't the coolest thing you could. You know, absolutely. Great talking to you. Always great talking to you.

To be continued. Yes, always. Good, yeah, yeah. There'll be so much, I still have to tell you about my dad It's still it's a lot there and I'm I'm figuring it out Thank you.