Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Jimmy Iovine

Episode Date: May 10, 2023

Jimmy Iovine is a music producer, record executive, entrepreneur, and co-founder of Interscope Records. In 2006, he co-founded Beats by Dre Electronics and Beats Music, which later became the framework for Apple Music.  ------- Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: House of Macadamias Visit https://www.houseofmacadamias.com/pages/rick-rubin for an additional 20% off at checkout  HVMN Ketone-IQ Visit https://hvmn.me/TETRA for special offers, and use code TETRA for 20% off at checkout

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Tetragrammerton. Tetragrammerton. Tetragrammerton. I, let me tell you something, man. Yeah. I have have it's so weird Maybe it was the inspiration for me calling you, but I have not when I get into a thing with music I just don't stop this fucking Johnny cares shit. I mean Danny boy Yeah, you fucking mind. I would have never thought about you know when you hear something hear something, you always, even today I'm retired, all this shit.

Pull it closer to you, pull it closer. Oh yeah, okay, I'm retired and stuff, but I say, I wish I thought of that, you know what I mean? I didn't think of that, Johnny thought of that. Johnny thought of Danny Boy. No, I'm talking about Johnny, can I? About Johnny, yeah. I wish I thought of that, you know.

It didn't happen in a normal way. Oh. I'll tell you the story if you want to hear. Yeah, I do. It was I was not thinking about Johnny Cash. It was more of an experiment because I was a kid at the time. I produced a bunch of records fast, but only you know, maybe doing it for five years, so like that not a long time. Yeah. What year was it? I don't know. 80, probably a few years after I met you. I was thinking about when we first met, which is unbelievable to me. I was still in college when we met. We first met in Paul Schindler's office.

Fuck. 37 years ago. And you may have been the first professional record producer I ever met. He represented you. Yeah. Faa. Yeah. And I remember the conversation we had because it was a strange conversation.

Oh, look. I had just produced my first rock album by a band called The Cult, Band From England. And I produced that album and I was excited just because I'd never did that before. I'd already made some hip-hop singles. I don't even know if I had any albums yet, just single hip-hop stuff. And I played you a song, and I remember you said, I wish I could still do something that simple.

Like it was so rudimentary, because I didn't know anything. I just recorded the band. Well, I didn't do anything. It's so funny you say that because when you get to a certain point producing records, I found you stop making the first albums. And even if you make that first album, you produce it like it's that third.

Yeah. It's just the innocence and the ignorance. And then I hear it. It's powerful that ignorance and innocence is. Yeah. So yes, yes. And you just you end up you have too much information. Yeah. You have too much into the studio and somebody's first album and you have too much information. Yeah. You're not all in the same place. Yeah. Right. Yeah. No, it's fascinating. I know. I would have heard that and said, yeah, wish I could just stop. That's what that's what it was like. It was like and it didn't make sense to me because you're a professional. I'm a kid in school.

I make this record not knowing anything and your reaction was, yeah, wish I could like do it like that. It's like I'm sure you've done it like that. What do you mean? It didn't compute, but it's fascinating. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's true though. I've always thought of that. I think about that now in my life, where I just, Bob Siga had the best line ever.

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then. Wow, that's a great line. That says it all. Isn't that a great line? Yeah. I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know. Did you ever, did you have work with Seagrard? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I didn't know I'd get. Tell me about it. Yeah. Well, I got caught at a period of time where I came out to LA with Tom Petty. I came out first with John Lennon in 1973. And then I went to New York and I lived in New York, so I worked at the record plan on Bruce and Patty Smith and a few things like

that. Then I came out in 1979 to do them with torpedoes with Tom, and it worked, which we'll get into. I rolled into Stevie Nicks, right? Because I, I, Damage, what people came out, how label heard it? They liked it. She loved Tom Petty. All of it came together. And so I went in with her. And that was cool. And then all of a sudden, I became a California record producer. Wow. You know what I mean? Which was sudden, I became a California record producer. Wow. You know what I mean?

Wow. Which was like, do you have to decide to move out here or was it obvious once you were going to stay? No, one time was here. Well, I can't move that here. I think the same reason most New York has moved in English, move out. Here's the weather.

You know, I came out here in 1973. And I just called my mother and said, how'd you get this wrong? Wow. You know, like this is where we, you know, it was just the quality of life. It's just, it was fucking December. And it was like 75 degrees.

And I'm like, holy shit. I asked a guy at the Beverly Hills Hotel, it was John put me up at this really rich hotel. I said, you have docks here, because my dad was a long shaman, right? I said, you have docks here? He goes, I gotaman, right? I said, you have docs here? He goes, I got docs here. It's a biggest port in America. I said, wow, it's like, oh, my mom, I said, how'd you get it wrong? I said, the regular people live here. You know the kind of question.

You know, you have to do regular people live here. Yeah, you know what I'm talking about. Of course. So I said, the regular people, people like, I'm a regular person, I live here. I mean, you just asked the dumbest questions, but so I did, and what I was, you only, you had a fantasy of California from seeing it on TV.

Yeah. That's all we knew was like, when I was 17, we were programmed to only like the stones and the beetles and not the beach boards because they were from California. You know what I mean? That's interesting. So we had one guy on our street, I come from an Italian neighborhood named Carl Stivacent and he had a beach boys album, but he also was the only guy in the street with blonde hair

Because he wasn't Italian I see I see I see so Italians didn't like the beach boys We like knew you are we like the stones and the beetles and vanilla fudge Yeah, yeah, yeah, my love was incredible And Leslie Western mountain, you know, it's the kind of shit was do-up already done for me Do-up that my life started at Sullivan De Beedles. Yeah. Yeah. Ground zero.

Do you remember seeing it on TV? No, I remember sitting on my mother's blue shared carpet, you know, right in front of the RCA TV. How old were you probably? I was exactly all I was. I was, it was a month or six weeks before my 11th birthday. Wow. There was 63, right?

Yeah, I think so. 63 or 64, if it was 64, then it was 11 or 12 years old. Yeah, 11 or 11. 10 or 11. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you see this and it just blows your mind. And I begged for a guitar from the day after that. No, no, it more than blew our mind. It shocked. I was in great school. And I

remember going to Catholic school with nuns. And I remember we all try to comb our hair forward, right? And I remember I was a good kid in school. You know, I would never look for trouble. Yeah. So we all did that. And the nuns said, you two, Jimmy, James. I said, yeah, I'm a Beatles fan, you know what I mean? And then, what was it, again, hard to know? I can't put myself there, because I was later than you. But when you saw it, what was so different about that than what had come before? Well, it was a shock shock of all things at once.

First of all, it was a band playing the songs. Yeah, like Elvis had a backup band. He wasn't a musician, he was a singer. So these guys were singing, there was four of them. Yeah. And three of them were singing and they all had these haircuts. Yeah. And it was like, how does land here?

What is this? This was like nothing I've ever seen. And then you hear the hype before, Murray the K, they're coming, they're coming, they're screaming, the girls are screaming. Then you see on the news, the Beatles land, they say stadium, and the frenzy was insane. And I remember singing it and just my mind exploded. And any friends of mine that are in music, including Springsteen, he talks about it all the time.

He was older than me because he's like, I think he's four years older than three years older than me. So he must have been 14, but it was never, by the way, I've been around a lot of shit since then. Never, nothing ever felt like that. And it was all organic. It wasn't, there was no like big machine push behind it. No, you know, it was sort of out of the blue. It just happened. Yeah, they, they,

a tropical gun of record dealers, you know, and it just, but when they landed on it, so the man they landed, the world changed at that moment. It really was. It was, remember, it was right after the Kennedy assassination,

which was very fresh in our mind. So it must have been 64 because Kennedy got killed in 63. Yeah. It changed everything and then you got to tell. very fresh and almighty. So it must have been 64 because Kennedy got killed in 63. It changed everything and then you got killed. Can we just gotten killed, which was big, which was as big as that? Did everyone love Kennedy? Yeah, well, my neighborhood, you know what I mean?

And he was like, he was young, first time young, president, who seemed cool. Yeah, he was the first president I paid attention to in my life, right? And he was young and they had him in the wife. They were handsome, the little kids. It was something that didn't look, you know, before him was Eisenhower, like a general, like a soldier, like we've released to that, right?

So, and then when he got killed, I remember being at school, it was, uh, so those two things happened at once. We did go to school. Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary. Nice. In Brooklyn. Yeah. Everything was in Brooklyn. Yeah. Your whole world was in Brooklyn. You know, and there was, you know, Manhattan was the land of ours. It was like every now and then you got to go there. Like, you know, if your parents took you away, you went, you know, not until I was 16, that I ever got a Manhattan for something of my own, 17 years old. And what were the kids like? What was this? Tell me the world. Tell me what the world was like then, yeah. It was all 100% Italian. Yep. It was right by the battery tunnel in Brooklyn. Where most of the kids, like parents, first generation?

Yeah, well some of the parents, well there was grandparents Italian, there were parents Italian, and then there were Italian kids that came over. Oh cool. Cool. So it was very, very, even in that it was siloed. You know, it was the people from

Calabria the people from Naples they were different, you know, my family was from Ischia, you know Everybody kind of stayed together, you know, and but they mixed somewhat, you know, but um more than with anyone else, but not as much as with the yeah, yeah with their own, you know like You know like my grandmother would always say of course he's called raise, you know, like, you know, like my grandmother would always say, of course, he's called Reyes, you know, it would be like, of course, he's like a stubborn, you know, I mean, you know, but we all spent time together, but it was a really very, very Italian, you know, fish hanging from the, and the fish stores and church church, in Catholic, and a few Irish spread around here and there. Right next to the projects in Red Hook.

You see, we were Red Hook when I was little, but then I was 16, it became Cowell Gardens. You know where that pizza place is, the Cowell, right? Yes. Yeah, so I grew up on block from the Cowellies. Yeah, and it was real, real Italian, you know? So I grew up one block from the Calis. Yeah. So, and it was real, real Italian, you know? And so everything I knew.

Did anyone speak Italian or no? We wouldn't speak Italian. Because if your grandmother tried to talk to you, the whole thing was about being American. Everybody wanted to be American. Absolutely. I see. If you spoke Italian, because even the kids that came over from Italy,

they didn't hang out with the American Italians. They hung out in the expresso shop. I see. And the Italians hung out in the candy store. I see. And it was very, very, very different. And it was, it was like that. It was very, very, for example, my grandfather made wine in the basement. I live with my grandparents and my mother and my, right? And he used to want to give us wine for dinner, like 13, I would say nope, Pepsi.

Because you were American. Because Brooklyn's Pepsi. Yeah. Brooklyn is Pepsi. Because you were American. Because Brooklyn's Pepsi. Yeah. Brooklyn is Pepsi. Brooklyn, you know, because they, it was the mob and they had the distribution and all that stuff, right? Could you, was the presence of the mob?

Oh my God, yeah. Oh my God, absolutely. It was the Galar gang was there, you know, they, remember, it was the 60s. And were people afraid of them or tell me what was like, what was the vibe? Well, you know You know, they, there was, remember, this is the 60s. And were people afraid of them or tell me what was like, what was the vibe? Well, you know, you worked around very casually. Like people do in their own neighborhoods

and any rough neighborhood, but you knew, and you knew who was a tough guy and who wasn't. And they weren't really looking for trouble. They were. Yeah, am I, am I, am I neighborhood, but, but, you know, I didn't own a for trouble. They were. Yeah, and my neighborhood butt, but I didn't own a business or anything like that, but I'm sure there was stuff going on, you know what I mean?

And you just don't fuck with them, you know what I mean? It was that kind of thing, you know? But my dad knew some of the guys, you know, and stuff like that. My best friend's uncle, actually, his backyard was connected to mine. He was one of the galo guys, you know, and yeah, there was right there. It was very, very much right there. And at this time, when your kid, are there jukeboxes, was that the absolute thing of the culture?

Absolutely. In the candy store. My aunt was the kid of Lil' Endots. It was her candy store. We used to all go in there, little little candy store, you fit 30 people, 30, it squeezed in, and you play music and you eat candy, you know, and soda, you know, things like that. But it was a candy store. And what would be on the jukebox, can be an example of that? Well, again, played the, they had the older kids, which was my sister. So they had, do you wanna dance in home?

You know, they had the contours and they had the duop, but they also had rock and roll Elvis, right? And then they had the duop, but they also had rock and roll, Elvis, right? And then they had an odd generation. We had the rascals and Vanilla Fudge, and then I remember when the doors first single came out, you know, and that sounded incredible on the jukebox, right? And I remember Hendrix's first record came out. I heard that on the jukebox. Everything was singles, you know?

And then the album started, you know, but the album took off. We had albums in our family of Frank Sinatra. And you know, first of all, you know, you grew up and that's all you hear is Dean Martin of Frank Sinatra. Yeah, not bad. No, no, no, no. I mean, nothing before with that.

But that's what's going on all the time. It's always. That's if you came to my house, that's pretty much what you get now. Yeah, Frank Sinatra, you know, Dean Martin, being cross-b, but Frank was really, really big, right? And Dean Martin. And they were still young. Yeah, oh, yeah. It was 65, 66 right? And all the neighborhood, you know, there'll be a group of guys that will go to everybody's house for a drink on Christmas Eve. So it's generational.

So we all hung out at the same place, but it was all generational. There were the little kids, the big guys, and the parents. And like my father's club was right next door to my candy store and my father's club was a social club Guys candy store was essentially your social club. Yeah Exactly and my sisters, but different times we very really went into the same time Because she had She had a different it was a different generation. She was seven years older than me. Still is So, you know, was that kind of environment man, you know, it was a different generation. She was seven years older than me. She still is. So, you know, it was that kind of environment, man.

You know, it was like, it was nice. I mean, you know, talking about what made Sammy run, I couldn't wait to get the fuck out of it. You know what I mean? Because, you know, I mean, that's what it was like. It was very, very Italian. Everything was Italian, Midnight Mass, you know, church and, you know and school uniforms.

And everybody talked like Brooklyn Italians, you know what I mean? The real, you know, silent night fever or good felt, is everybody talk like that? So you see the Beatles, changes your life, you get a guitar. And getting a band. You were in a band. Of course I was in a band. I had no idea. No, no, no, no, I was a guitar and getting a band. You were in a band. Of course I was in a band. I had no idea. No, no, no. I was a bass player in a band.

Great. I was a bass player. The worst guitar player plays bass. That's the rule. That's the rule. Okay. That's how it is. Okay.

Because in Gene, play guitar, it was better than me. Okay. And was it a four piece band? Five piece band. Organ, one guitar, drums and a singer. So there was one, two, three, four, five of us. And we had a band and we played, and then we got an agent in New York.

So we played, again, we were a cover band. That was it. And you played Beatles covers or everybody's covers? Everybody's covers. Anything that we could play. Stones were big, right? We played some Beatles songs. We played the rascals, we played Billy Joe's band, the hassles, we covered his songs.

Billy was incredible. We opened for them one day and one hour. Amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was on the singer. I didn't know that. There was a guy with a singer, Billy sang too, but he wasn't the... He was just a keyboard player.

He was an organ player. We play sang, but they did a song. If you get a chance, go listen to the hassles. It was an organ player. We play sang but they did a song. If you get a chance Go listen to the hassles you got me harmin. Okay, and Billy Joel was in that band. Well, Jones a key organ player amazing Amazing, man. He was great. So he was a little older than me. Still is. I'm gonna see him next Friday night with Stevie Nicks Amazing. Where's he playing? So fire him and Stevie Nicks. go ahead. I had no idea. Yeah, it's going to be awesome.

Sounds good. Stevie's on fire. Really? Stevie's audience literally is 25 to 49. What's happened? I'm so happy for her. What's happened to her? She really...

Something happened where she just connected with a young group of people in a way. It feels like it's been going on for like 25 years 20 25 years that's right any young Female artist you talk to always talks about Stevie next. It's always like that's one of the She's a Rita. Yeah, you know, I'm a leave a Reader of right rocks and believable. I know and you know, I got to tell you some man We've all recorded a lot of people

To me in my world the most natural instrument with Stevie Nicks It was literally Maybe two takes she just opens her mouth and it was perfect. That's how she sings. Yeah, and that's how she sings that song. Yes That's it. Yes, And you just go, wow. So cool. Yeah. So I mean, really, Trent and Atticus are working with her right now. I mean, song. Yeah. The song is really, she wrote an incredible song. And yeah. So you know, I got to band. And then I, we saw the plane. We saw it a band and then I we started playing we started getting some place.

I mean, it's cover band. We played on Gannos, which was a hot hot club. We played Cafe Wauw down the village, which was incredible. We played the eighth wonder. We played Trudy Hellers. We played all those places. Again, opening up for the illusion, you know, and all these bands, these Long Island or, you know, uh...

What were the clubs on Long Island? Honkamunka. Was my father's place already there? My father's place was a little later. Okay, I saw some shows there when I was growing up. Yeah, yeah, a little later, but those were Honkamunka was big. It was really big in Long Island, you know. And we played more in Manhattan. We got lucky. We met this woman that was an agent. She lived, I never been to 59th Street.

She lived on 59th Street. We went there. And I remember just, you know, going up there with my band, she said, I get you some gigs and she did. And then we broke up about 17, 18 years old. And what I realized was that I was never going to be in the Rolling Stones. I got that, right? I was smart enough to know that. But I wanted to touch it. So I, I realized that there were people that made the records, right? There were people that were involved in the records.

So I met this and fortunately I really got lucky. My cousin Pat knew this guy. I mean, show you how far away you were or I was from any kind of... Of course. ...gig gig right? So Introduce an impossible idea to be in the music business. Yes, so I meet this guy named Steve Tudang Through my cousin who was a background singer for the Archies. Wow Records. Yes background singer not not not Ronnie Dante, a background singer.

How do you mean Ronnie Dante? I met the background singer. And I imagine not a lot of touring work for the Archies, being as they were cartoons. No. Exactly. No, they're Archies, right, the band. You know, the records, remember? But the record they did, it was a cartoon band.

That's exactly right. They only existed in that. That's exactly right. They only existed in that. That's exactly right. That's like, so he was a writing partner of a legendary woman named Ellie Greenwich. I know who Ellie Greenwich is from the real building that era of writings. So I used to go to her apartment after school and after work. Incredible. I had a job with a leading male on King's Highway at the time. I remember and I met Ellie Grannish and she had equipment in her room. Did she live in Manhattan or in

... She lived in Manhattan. I lived in Brooklyn. No, I lived in Brooklyn the whole time. So you're taking the train? Yeah. My mother's house. So I go to Ellie's house and I see she's riding and recording and then she's thought to play me some of the records that she produced. I mean, she wrote and produced Cherry Cherry. Yes. I mean, incredible. On bang records, right?

Incredible. So I'm like, wow, that sounded incredible. She wrote so many, the Dooran Ron, I can hear music, be my baby, chapel of love. She wrote all those records. She wrote River Deep Mount High. Incredible. Okay, I mean, fulfill, right? Yes.

So one day she saw, and Carol King comes out, does tapestry. Somebody told her you should make an album. So she went in and wrote and did an album called Let It Be Written, Let It Be Song. So it invites me to the session. So I'm in the studio. First of all, I've been to a studio. Remember what studio was? What year? What studio was it?

Oh yeah, an hour. An hour. An hour. Philharmoned studio it was. Oh yeah, an hour. An hour. An hour, Phil Ramon studio. Yeah. Before I got my first job. Welcome to the house of McAdamias. McAdamias are a delicious superfood. Sustainably sourced directly from farmers. McAdamias, a rare source of Omega-7 linked to college and regeneration, enhanced weight

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A metabolic superfuel. Place in order today at hvmn.com slash tetra ketone IQ So Absolutely remember studio was and the engineer was named Elliott Shiner He ended up doing all the Steely Dan records. But in those days, he did whatever was available, but all big stuff, you know, big key.

And at that point was he a studio engineer meaning if you went to the studio, he was your engineer, they weren't like engineer, independent engineers. No, well I wasn't an independent engineer, I was part of the staff, the staff engineers. And you go there and they give you an engineer unless like you go there and the guy did Led Zeppelin. You want him right or something like that right you could ask for somebody But you work for so Elliott was a staff engineer for Phil or mom gotcha donny Han

Ellie I just yeah Ellie shine there was a bunch of guys Yeah, and they were all very very good my boss at the record plant rice a column was a bunch of guys. And they were all very, very, very good. My boss at the record plant, Royce Acala, it was also one of those engineers, but he was already at the record plant. So I go in and she's out there singing chapel of I remember it, right?

And all the lights are out and there's candles. I say, what the fuck is this, right? And there's candles everywhere. Kind of looked like a, like the fuck is this, right? And this candles everywhere. Kind of looked like a, like a, you know, the village or something, you know, but it was this real sterile building. And this guy, Elliot Shinas, then, he's making the wreck and I say,

what is he, what is that? Because he's a recording engineer. He's got these big knobs, you know, and he's turning the buttons and- And this point is it like, four track or eight track? No, no, it's it's eight and 16 1971

Okay, 1972 maybe you just eight track. Yeah, maybe eight track. Yeah, probably probably yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, probably eight track and I saw that he had a leather bag And I'd never seen a leather bag before especially on a guy. Yeah Look at that. And at the end of the session, a girl, this really pretty girl came in and he said, okay, I'm gonna go, I forgot her name, whatever it was. And they left. I said, I don't know what this is, but I want that.

At that moment, I just said, I got it. I want it. The whole life, you saw all in one. The guy had a leather jacket, a leather bag, and just said, I got it. I want the whole life you saw all in one. Yeah, the guy had a leather jacket, a leather bag, you know, clothes, right? I'm sorry. You're telling me. I'm superficial.

I don't know what to say, you know, I'm going, I'm Italian, I'm going for the shit, you know what I mean? It's great. I'm not looking for substance. No. I'm looking for a gig to get out of Brooklyn, get some money and buy clothes. Yes.

All right, so that's it. So anyway, so Ellie Greenwich got me a job in that studio. Amazing. Right. So what happens is I get a 90, I'll tell you a great story of them. I get a 90 day trial. In that 90 day trial, one day in assistant, I was below an assistant at A&R. An assistant couldn't make it in. So the assistant, no, the engineer couldn't make it.

So the assistant did the job. I became the assistant. It was a Saturday. It was James Brown. Wow. Right. So I'm in there. I just terrified of everything, not just James Brown, a object fear, I don't have to do anything. Of course. Right. So we do the vocal, every time he would come into the control room and sit in the director's chair, this guy would pick his hair because the headphones would dent his afro.

Yes. Right. So we do that, had a towel around them. There was a guy that just just put towels around them and stuff, you know. Even in the studio, because he had that on stage too. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, in the studio. Absolutely. Wow. Tap his forehead. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes. First time I ever saw anything like that. I was like, wow, that's incredible. It's incredible. As he's leaving the studio, well, for tell me more about how great James Brown. Unbelievable. Was it like, could you believe what you were seeing?

No, the guy would in the vocal group dancing singing You know and just being James Brown unbelievable, right? It was unbelievable, right? It was incredible. So At the end of the session, I'm cleaning up the guy walks over to me I think the guy's name was George but I could be wrong the guy walks over to me puts 50 dollars in my hand and says, Mr. Brown wants you to have this. How cool is that? Right?

Maybe 50 Brown. So I go home and I run the next morning, Jerry DeCat, my drummer, comes over to my house and I looked at him and I said, I'm gonna be rich here, okay? What do you mean you're gonna be like, I said, let me tell you something. I got $50, let's talk about how much $50 was then.

1972. What would it be like today? What would it be? I don't know, I gotta look it up. No, in your estimation, the feel, based on the feel of it. I guess let me talk it to it actually, probably 250 bucks. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like money. Yeah, a lot of money. You know like if somebody gives you a hundred bucks I'm gonna give you 200 bucks 250 that that's how feels like real money, right? Absolutely. You can buy something and Gucci. Yeah, what were you making in the studio just to oh two to four dollars an hour? Okay, okay, so to put in perspective. Yeah four hours an hour. Yeah So I got home and I said, okay, you know me, I'm gonna work every day. $50 a day, I got chalk in the street. $50 a day times 365.

On top of my salary, I never got a tip again. Of course. But I had no idea. Yeah, but you were inspired. Because when you come from that world, Rick, and so do you, you don't know anything. There's no sophistication. I didn't go to school.

I just, you know, I walked into this place because she told me to. Yeah. And I'll tell you, even for the people who came from a more substantial background, no one tells teachers you had to be successful because nobody knows. Oh, not at close.

Nobody knows. Presley in that world, yeah. They were, I mean, you know, it was crazy, right? I mean, my mother and my sister before I went to work, literally, because I was brought up as the prince in an Italian family with a bunch of women, right? My aunt, my cousins are downstairs. They told me I had a sweep the night before the gig.

They told me I had a literally had a sweep, because I knew I had to sweep, I said, I don't know how to sweep. You never made me sweep. No, of course. So they told me I had a sweep. Amazing. It's pretty primitive.

Right? So cool. Mr. Brown wants you to have this. Mr. Brown wants you to have this. How cool is that? Unbelievable. I wish I kept it, but I needed it. But so 89th day, I get fired. The guy says to me, his name was Don Hahn.

Right? He said to me, he was a chief engineer. He was everybody's boss. He said, you know, I'm sorry. He said, this is not for you. So I said, look, my father said, because I had left college, I said, my father said, if this doesn't work out, I've got to go back to school before I come home. Yeah, what you don't want to do.

He said, I don't know what to say. You know, because remember, I left school because of the draft. I got a high number in the lottery. I got like 265 and they didn't draft up until like 180. So the date that happened, I left school and went to work. So he said, sorry, so I'm leaving. And this is where, this is where I got into the Rocker Hole of Fame recently and I set on a speech,

I set about mentors and helping kids, just be a mentor to kids through it. Because this woman, Ellie, granite, I colder up on the way home, but think about this for yourself. I called from a pay price at Ellie. I was really, I was just sort of crying. Yeah, of course.

I got fired on the 89th day. She says, hang up, call me back in 10 minutes. She called a record plant. I called her back and she said, don't go home. I went, she says, go to 321 West 44th Street. Wow. Asked for Eddie D Germano and Royce Acala, I walk in there and they hired me. Wow. Unbelievable.

How long did you work direct your plan? Oh, then I, that was where my career started, you know, because in, it was 1973 at that point. And I worked on the record plan until I came to California. I was an I was a studio. I was a staff engineer. Yeah, yeah, I was a staff engineer and then I started producing at the record. How did you get trained as an engineer? Royce a collar. Royce a collar was the greatest engineer teacher ever. Very eccentric guy. So eccentric that he had, we didn't know what it was. It was an OCD. We didn't know what OCD was, right? He wouldn't like touch things that other people touched,

you know, stuff like that, right? When he wanted to train you, you became his assistant, and it was like literally like boot camp. It was hard, right? But he liked me. So now I'm in the studio. He's teaching me, but because he doesn't want to touch everything, he would make me do it. I see. So give me 2 dB at 10,000. Give me which worked out great for you because you have all the hands-on experience. Right. Amazing. Right. And I'm learning how to, so lucky. Bizzale. Series of events that are like these magic. Right. Bless. And you're the man that felt to emerge,

you know, which looked my sister used to call me and felt to Earth, rather. And so now I'm really learning because I've got to be, I'm 24-7 with this guy. This guy was the busiest engineer in New York City Yeah, and you know you're doing John Lennon and he's doing anybody who came to the record plant wanted him right so Well this other guy Shelley Akas

They know Jack Douglas was an engineer there the guy who produced John Lennon and arrow Smith Yeah guy who's worked this way. Yeah, Jack Douglas, right? so I see him still. Great. And he put me on everything. And then one day he was going to California, no, first they brought me in, cause he had another assistant

who something happened, he ended up taking him off the project and he brought me in on mind games at the end. Wow. And that was September of 73. And this is after you basically, the reason you're doing this is because you see the Beatles on Ed Sullivan.

Yeah. And now you're in the studio with John Lennon. That's right. That's right. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. I didn't think they were the same person. Yeah

It was just too much. It was too much. Yeah, it's too much. So you know, I'm just like How do I knock it thrown out of this room? Could I been thrown out of a few rooms? I'm sweaty Rick. How do I knock it thrown out of this room? Yes, how can I just over? Do it? How do I just serve? Yes, you know, how do I knock it thrown out of this room? Yes. How can I just over do it? How do I just serve? Yes. How do I just be of service? Yes. Right?

T. I learned how to make John Lennon's T. He wouldn't let anybody else make it. I timed it exactly. Yeah. I was like the way I am about everything. I was about that fucking T. Yeah, you know and so everything the mics the thing you know Whatever Roy told me you know right now in the boxes doing you know and

Then as time went on Roy like like all of us, which I know you've done. I know we've all done it Starts to get old a little bit and you just start handing off things to other people. So now, right after that, this crazy thing happened with Lenin, is Morris Levy, Sue John, over, I believe it's come together and Chuck Berry can't catch me. He said he ripped them off, right? So they made a settlement and Morris Levy said, I want you to do an album of my songs because he had the Morris Levy. He was a guy. Why he did those songs? I didn't know that. No, nobody knows.

The Rock and Roll album. Yeah. So now he decides he wants to use Philor, Phil's Spector won't come to New York Roy says I want you to come with me to California because you'll set the studio up for me I wanted to sound exactly like the record plan. I see I don't go there I want you to turn it into the record plan. Yeah, and what was the studio in LA? And an M studio away. Wow of studio in LA. And M. And M.

Studio A. Wow. Right. This is a full circle story where I get to. Right. It is. Unbelievable. Yeah.

So now I'm in there. And the first day, I've got to, I go to the studio, I get, I start tuning the speakers, right? So I learned how to do that. So. And so now I'm tuning the speakers to getting the sound like I know Roy likes him to sound. So I'm playing mind games. I'm playing some other records that I assisted on with him.

He got eight. Was that your first time in California? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He put John put me at the Beverly Hills Hotel. Amazing. In a bungalow.

Amazing. I had just turned 20. Amazing. Right. I didn't know. I'd never been on a plane. Never been on a plane, never been to a hotel. I was once to the host motel in Philadelphia with my mother. But other than that, I know. And you're still living in home with your mom at home.

Oh yeah. This is amazing. Oh yeah. No, in Brooklyn, in that house. Amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So now I'm in the studio. Okay, now I in Brooklyn in that house. Amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, now I'm in the studio, okay, now I gotta go get the set up.

So I gotta go to Phil's house in Ben and the Canyon. I think you've never met him before. I've never been to a big house. Yeah. I've never, nothing, nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So now there's a gate and there's a driveway. He lived on Ben and the Canyon somewhere or somewhere around there.

So I go there and I go in the foyer and I said I'm here to see Phil Spector. Who's that? But he's talking. I don't see him. He's talking from the upstairs. I Said I'm here. I'm here. I'm behalf of John Lennon, eraser collar. I need to set up for tomorrow. Okay, eight musicians, guitar-based, three guitar- I said, eight musicians. I said, okay, anything else? Now, I leave. I go to A&M the next day and I'm setting up.

I made it look like I'm telling you, it was a painting. Every cable wired. You couldn't trip if you wanted a trip. Every microphone, every music stand, every echo tuned, every patch chord in, every piece of equipment, tape everywhere, written down. I was nuts about getting this right, right? So now I'm the first one in the studio. Two guys walk in,

four guys walk in, three more guys walk in, 36 guys walk in. Musicians. Yes. We have for the full-spec the session. We have for the full-spec the session. Wow. I'm like, what? Phil, which is how he records What from when I left his house to the next morning hired 36 musicians Unbelievable eight guitar players two drummers how blame and Jim kelton Wow Okay, two bass players. Yeah six horns

three pianos Leon Russell and Barry man Wow playing the piano Okay, three background singers share Harry Nielsen and I forgot who the other one was unbelievable Right so now I'm like oh fuck so I got a rearrange I said give me an hour I'll rearrange I get some help from the studio, the kid that worked from the studio, et cetera. That's a lot of setting up. Oh, man.

That's a big section. Oh, man. That's a lot. That's a lot, life. Yeah. Life. How about 36 headphones? Yeah, yeah.

How about balancing the headphones? What only two headphone buses? Impossible. It's like- It's very, buses? Impossible. It's like- It's very, very difficult task. It's not 36 strings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's 36 musicians.

Yeah, yeah. Banging. Yes. Right? So- Wow. Now Phil comes in, and this one on every night. So he comes in, now these guys, everybody knows this story.

It's gone there yet or no. Yeah. Don's already there. Yeah, yeah. No one, it wasn't there when the 36 guys came in, but I was in my job to tell them me, where my job was, it's ready. Leisure craft.

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right? One of those songs. And there's four tape machines to a quarter inch tape with slap because feel like a lot of slap and John liked a lot of slap, right? But when everyone that they get up, now we're at the stand up console in studio A, at the time there was a stand up console. We both had to run the console because there's too much for one guy. You don't have that many course. You don't have that many hands. You don't have that many hands. There's like 36 feet. I mean, no such thing as automation or anything like that. For guitar players on one bus, we had no choice.

So we had to balance it from outside. We had to just move the mics in and out to what we... You know, it was real, real analog. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When everyone that are attention, he had a boat horn. The air horn, yeah. Yeah, those are loud. Unbelievable. Yeah. That's horrible. So now I'm like, now you're scared, right? You don't know what you're going death. I mean, if you're horrible, right? So now we're making the album.

And then eventually about a week and a half in. They comes in with the butcher coat, but now he's got guns strapped to him, right? Got two guns strapped to the fucking chest. And again, I'm not scared because I'm too busy. Yeah, you're just working. I'm not giving this job. Yeah. But how?

What was did you, did you talk to fill it all? Yeah, I was who was he like Like you see there's a documentary out which is exactly like he's like there's a new documentary on Phil He's like His voice is high like mine. You know what I mean? It's like that kind of voice and You talk fast. He talks slow. Yeah, he's from Philly. You know what I mean? The Jewish guy. Yeah, he seemed impatient. Yeah, yeah Oracle my this me them shares out there You know, screaming at her, you know what I mean yelling at this guy shut up. No, hey Put Barry man on the grand put Leon on the on the on the window rolls. That'll fuck with Leon's head

Just chaos chaos chaos chaos complete chaos. Yelling at people, calling shit. And John got along good. I'm gonna add that element. It's right now. Okay. There's the element. Yeah.

Alcohol. Yeah. gallons of it. There was a schmurner of bottle. They about this big. And they just drink it. Drinking the whole time. And this is not a secret. Both Phil and John and everybody. Right. Everybody. This is an incredible story. No, it is.

It's it's an I can't believe I know you as long as I know you and I've never heard this story. Not a lot of people know this. This is an unbelievable story. So now he's yelling at everybody and it's crazy. And I'm just trying to get it on tape. Right. And my boss boss a very quiet stoic kind of got quiet. He's like, what is tough sitting there saying, give me this, give me John's mic's not working. And I'm running. Like 100 miles an hour into the studio, changing the mic, fixing the mic. You know, you know, number seven guitar play, the mic's not working, give me a new mic. Try something more directional, right?

And also the more people that are there, the more pressure there is, because there's a lot of people waiting around for everything always. Yeah, I'm like, I'm a water tea. Yeah. I'm like, you know. It's a lot, I'm a water tea. I'm like, you know. It's a lot, I'm just picturing how stressful it is for people who don't know the situation.

It's incredibly stressful. And everybody's talking at once. And they were all asking you for something. And the drum is fucking around so you can't hear anything. You can't hear anything. You can't hear anything. You can't hear anything. You can't hear anything. You can't hear anything. You can't hear anything. you can't hear anything. Yeah, yeah. Broom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,

boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,

boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, the identification because I was only 20 of the guy at the front desk to go buy the alcohol. There was an alcohol. There was a liquor store on the corner. So I had a guy helping me from A&M, but as far as Roy was concerned, and John, it was on me. Yes. Remember, I'm only there six months at the record plant. So now, now Phil, this is even crazier so Phil One night and this is in a book that just came out the Tony King book. I don't know if you know Tony King I don't know Tony he was a president of Apple and

so now Everybody's really drunk. He's very it's very not everybody knows that during this period of time was called the last week in for John that he got, you know, John And how just like have an idea how long of the sessions every day? And I really remember but you know, we started I get there at noon and they'd go to like 11 or 12, you know So you have a 12 hour hard Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and so now Phil Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so now Phil goes crazy, I used to drive John home,

and then this one night, Phil wanted to drive from home with his bodyguard, and a book just came out, you can read about this, John was drunk and he tied him up, right? So now the album falls apart, right? And John did not take kindly to being tied up. Yeah, neither did anybody around them. And it was a nightmare. But up until that time, what was the relationship between Phil and John like? Producer artist. Yeah. But did did was John was going along

with all of Phil's craziness. It's just cool. Yeah. As John was experienced, he was already a beetle. John was into the, everybody was in that moment and in that mindset. Yeah. It was out there. It was really out there, right? So John was amazing.

I gotta tell you, man, there was in one day, he wasn't splendid to me. Not one, I did a lot of shit with him. I did the Salute to Salute Grey. I did that TV show with him. I did three albums with him. Wow. So, you know, three albums.

There's people who aren't understanding, people who are listening to this. They live with them. You're sitting next to the guy for three albums, 200 days or whatever it is. You know, no more than that. It was two years. So, you know, he was drinking at the time, you know, and it's

no secret. It's in every book in the world. So now, and this is when he's not with Yoko, is that correct? Right. Because he, but before that, before that, I forgot this, before that, Phil went to the bathroom and shot the place up, right? During the session, right? Wild. Yeah. Oh, another thing that the session, right? Wild, yeah.

Oh, another thing that you would be interested in, during the session, now David Geffen is going out with share, right? Yeah. So David walks in. Now I know this is David Geffen, right? Yeah. And A&M, David's leaning against the wall,

fills behind me, and I'm at the headphone console, which is right near the door, right? So, when people are in the stands, recording, I'm in a recording studio right now. This is not a big room. You know what I mean? And the room was not that much bigger than this. So, David comes in and he starts yelling,

you, that out of David. So David says something very Davidish. This is Phil is yelling at David. Yeah. And David, very David says something sarcastic to him. Like, I don't know about you, but right now I have number three, four, five and seven. Yeah. Something like that.

It just pisses him off. And. And. And at this point in time, is David have asylum? Is this asylum days? No, no, 73, yeah, whatever it was, maybe. Yeah, asylum is big label. Whatever 73 was, he was very successful. We all know, right?

Yes, yes. So Phil goes after him. And then all of a sudden Phil physically, yeah, then Phil goes into a karate stance. Ha, ha, ha, ha. I'm like holy shit. These people do this too. You know what I mean?

I've seen fights, we had shit growing up, you know what I mean? But I didn't know. I didn't know. And people, everybody's crazy, turns out everybody's crazy. That's exactly right. So now we get thrown out of the studio,

Phil, oh, I left one thing out. So it was 73, now, you know, I don't know by you, when you're, this is 50 years ago. So some of the stuff blends together, you know? Of course, of course. But so Phil calls me up one day and says, we're canceling the studio. I said, why are we canceling the studio, Phil? I said, every older musician is coming. Do you hear this? I don't hear anything. He goes,

this helicopter's over my house. They think I've got the watergate tapes. this over my house. They think I've got the watergate tapes. I don't even know what the world tapes are. You know what I mean? I'm like I'm in. But he's completely paranoid. I'm in his own, right? So it was like stuff like that going on all the time, right? Unbelievable. But anyway, so all the things run together, but all I can say is that John was magnificent to me every day. Every day was the greatest guy wanted to teach me. He and Roy taught me together, like during walls and bridges, Roy's wife had a baby. So he took off six weeks and left me alone with John, and I did all the overdubs on the album. Incredible.

Right? So now, you know, I was 21 at this point. No, 21 at this point. And I'm just like, what a way to learn is to really, because it's set, I didn't know. I didn't have great taste in music when I was a kid. You know, like, I wasn't the first guy to have the stones record.

I wasn't the first guy to hear cream, like my friend Ali played me cream. You know, I was always a little behind, but I really learned. Ever since those sessions, it's how I made records until I quit making records with the live vocals So I had to feel the vocal so John sang live all the time so I would I would just Wait, we would wait till you got the vocal and not to be a hundred percent finished vocal

But the feel was based on the vocal so everybody's playing off of the vocal That's right and you don't get a take until it's right, right? So I recorded like that my entire life. But those six weeks with those six weeks with John, I got really lucky, but I was a little terrified during those sessions, we would have a get you through the night, which is a really fun song. It was a single from the album. a really fun song was a single from the album. And Elton at the time was bigger than you were still. You know what I mean? He was, I was 1974. So he had like three number one hour that year, some crazy stuff. And Tony King again brought him to the session and Elton was going to sing on the session. So so he sings on this, he comes in and I'm terrified. And John says to me,

I said, John, Elton John's coming to the studio. Okay. I said, I'm really nervous. He said, trust me, he's more nervous than you. I'm a beetle. Yeah. And then he told me the story about, and I hope I have the song, the song the song right he said I was recording with Eric or somebody right? Yeah, I did Eric playing called Turkey. I don't know. I don't know but one of those songs and and the guy froze up Eric froze up What one of the great classic Jeff that one of those guys froze up and John said I told them play you bastard because he was nervous because he's in the room with me because I understand and 1973. Yes. Again, remember the I told you it's hard to explain the big bang of 64 of the Beatles.

Being around the Beatles in 1970 to 74. There was nothing like it. I don't know. I've never met a celebrity since. Never. There's nothing like that. There's never been anything like that. No. Those four guys, right after the Beatles broke, even during, I didn't know them during the Beatles, but people froze. Yeah. Musicians froze. Of course. So now we recording the vocals I'm saying to myself, I never really recorded in a piano without Roy, my boss, because I hope he doesn't want to play

the fucking piano, right? So I'm the same to myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting though. Interesting. Interesting problem. Right. So now they're facing each other with these two really dynamic

microphones singing. And if they're wrecking you here, they didn't high pitch the other on a really hot dynamic mic. And I hear Elton say, let me try piano. I'm like, oh, fuck, unbelievable. Son of a bitch. So I had to remember how I set it up for Roy and I just did that.

And show you a kind of guy John was. So Elton walks in and he says, hey, great piano sound. John says, that's why we use him. He's fucking around. You know, because he knew I was nervous, you know? Amazing. He would just give me a shot on anything and everything.

I don't understand it. I don't understand it till today. It isn't because I was talented, it's because he liked me. Yeah. And he felt he could trust me, because he told me that once. He said, you know, working with me, people are going to ask you to get to me. And I can tell you're the kind of kid that won't.

Yeah. And I learned. Yeah. You were protective of him, of course. Well, I didn't know that. Yeah. But I got it. Yeah.

I learned. And you know, what I'm trying to say is that whatever kids are out there trying to do stuff, don't be embarrassed of what you don't know. Yeah. Because it's charming. Yeah. Because it's charming. Yeah. And it's open and it's honest.

Absolutely. And the people around you would rather hear, you don't know or say you do know, and blow something up. Absolutely. You know, so I've always been like that. I always tell everybody, we're getting to this. I get, I said, man, 1991,

had no idea what fucking hip hop was. I wasn't Russell Simmons. I wasn't Rick Rubin. I Landed on it. It didn't I said but the only thing that I saw in hip-hop was The whole world should hear this and I have a record company and I'm gonna spend the fucking money To let everybody here because when I when I went to sign a the money to let everybody here because when I went to sign a death row, Doug called me and said, look, my entire black music department here says, you're paying so much money. This stuff doesn't, first of all, it doesn't sell more than what the easy album said. It's impossible. And it doesn't travel outside of America.

And you're going gonna get killed. I said, I gotta tell you, Doug, I don't believe any of these three things. I said, as a producer, I had nothing but, I had massive hits in Europe, outside of America as a producer. Matter of fact, you're paying groups like Dioistrage and Simple Mind,

just to hire me, because they, I understood for some reason, there's not, well, I don't know what the fuck it is you know what I mean but it worked right I was good with those groups So I said I don't agree with any I said they're gonna be dancing to this in China. I had no idea I'm telling you man. I said this before it reminded me to Rolling Stones It was like Mick and Keith. I said I know these guys are they scared a fuck out of you You go in here, but the music you love the music so much, you go in closer. Yeah. And it was dangerous music. There's always been popular, right? But when you add black to it, it does another thing.

That's what's wrong with the world, especially America. But at that, that didn't't I wasn't one of those guys. So I didn't you know So I remember With Drain when Drain Shug first came in it was but anyway, he'll go back there with doing chronological shit But then yeah, it doesn't have to be okay. We could jump around however you like But I remember when they came in they had an album finished was straight out of Compton already out as an independent record Oh, yeah, No, they were on ruthless. This is when Shug got that quote got Dre off of ruthless records. I see. Okay. Yeah. Got him off of ruthless records and they were being sued by when I made that deal for them. They were being sued by Sony

They were being sued by Sony, Ruthless, Brian Turner, and a guy named Michael Harris, who attempted murder on his cousin or something. I don't know if I have it wrong, but he was in jail for life, Trump pardoned him recently. Right. I'm just saying, there's a guy, I hear he are good guys, but he was suing that throw as well so I had a settle all four of those cases With the people yeah, so I I said man, fuck that I believe in these guys. John McClain brought him in told me this was it I'm good at listening to people. I know for may and M cool. We did a mix together on YouTube. Nice.

The Hollywood remix of Desire. Nice. Wonderful. I mean, just incredible. Do you make many records for A&M? No. I just had the studio. Oh.

Never worked out. Oh, so you made them at the studio. I understand. I just built the studio with this guy, Shelley. Yes, yes. Yeah. So now we go and settle out those lawsuits and And let's talk more about what you saw so you saw the easy re-e record came out first then straight out of Compton came out

Those records were blown up and they were I know my my interest in hip hop at that time was at a low point Until I heard those. That was like, oh. Well, I didn't, I didn't get that either. The first time I, I understood anything about hip hop is Bonobro at Leor Cohen and Chuck D to A&M studios because they were going to open up for you too. Yes. So I invited them to my house in Malibu, right? And I still listen to them talk and I was understanding it, but I still didn't get it.

I'll be honest with you, I didn't, I was producing you too. I wanted to start a label. Of course. I wasn't paying attention, right? And I wanted to get out of producing. And you were all so busy. That your plate was full somewhere else.

Yeah, and I was producing, I was doing stuff, the stuff, right? And I was doing the Christmas album, very special Christmas. So now it's 1990 or 91. Let's talk about starting the label, because that's a big story. Well, what happened to me was, I was producing and I was burnt on it. I knew it. I was 18 years and I was burnt. And I just said, I had a kid, 1988, I had my son, Jamie.

And even though they didn't ask me to do it, they told me they were going to Germany to Berlin to do that next album. And Berlin, the wall had just come down. I know it's freezing there, you know. I'm like, oh man, I gotta, I had to go to Berlin for this guy, because remember, they just almost killed me on the last album, on rattling home. I was like, these fucking, it's like four on one. And it's a maddening process. Maddening, right? So we're doing two albums, a live album, a studio album, and a movie. So I just was fried.

I said, I'm not doing this. I got an N, something else happened. Because I don't want to sound altruistic, and I don't want to sound old phony. Geffen sold his company. So I was like, wait a minute, I think he does what I do. Yes. He just made all this fucking money, right? And then I said, I'm also not getting, I'm not going to be getting the young groups. You know, when you get to a certain level. He broke up, of course. The labels don't give you the, they think you're going to be too expensive. And you know, in those days that's what it was like.

The label was to try to avoid you, get you there, group on the third album, right? When they knew a little bit more. So I said to David, hey, I wanna start a record company. You should do it. There are a lot of record people a lot dumber than you. That's inspiring.

Right? I said, I believe that, right? And you got to, you also dealt with a lot of record people over the years, even as a producer. Yeah, but when he said it, I'm always a fan of David, and he was always been great to me. So when he said it, I said, first time you met him was when he was in the room with Phil? I didn't meet him.

You just saw him. Yeah. That's the first time you were in his presence. Yeah, the first time I met him was 1980. John Landau set up lunch for me at LaDome. At your request? No, John's request. John said you should meet this guy. So they were starting Gaffin Records.

You should meet this guy. He's a great producer. I see. That's what John said. So I met David. And we had a very nice, let's say, and we became friends. Yeah. right? And he just constantly stayed in my life and it helped me you know, so

When he sold his company, I'm like man I Introduced me to Ted Field Right David introduced you to Ted Field David talked to Ted first and said, I want somebody to run a record company, him, Eric and Eddie Rosenblast, that I think Jimmy could do this for you. I hear he wants to start a record company, because I was gonna start a record company and go through David.

A richly though you're gonna do with Irving. And then Irving's, I remember. That's right, yeah. That's right. And then I think Modin want me in the game, on that Irving's deal, yeah. I think Mod just felt me on the in the in the game on that on her being is deal. Yeah, I think Mod just felt Me didn't see it, you know, whatever right so I went to Dave and he said well, it's guy Ted fears it Jimmy's looking to start a label, right and I meet Ted poem again. It's you know things come together poem again. It's also met Ted. I mentioned it right so

This guy told me to be triad, I said everybody kind of supported, but David was the guy that, like he does, focused. And I went to him and then I said, David, you know, Doug wants to put up half the money. And David said, do what's right for you. I just sold my company, I don't give a shit, do what's right for you.

Yes. And I took the money from Doug. Yeah. Because then it made it easy for Ted. I don't want to be reliant on one person for the money. You know, that's never safe. Of course. Right. So we did it. You know, remember you calling me and you said, and I can't remember it was a million or a billion, but you said it must have been billion. I just signed, I just signed a billionaire. Right. Right. Well, Fowlony wasn billion, but he said, it must have been billion. I just signed a billionaire. Right, right. Well, Fowl on, he wasn't, but anyway, but that's what I thought.

Whatever it was. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe he was. Who knows? He ate a lot of, but I would definitely say that. Well, you did. I'm telling you, dude. I was there.

I'm absolutely. It was fun. It was, I remember, because it was so funny. Yeah, I would definitely say. Yeah. But, and I got my first deal, it's not a record company, and then we started in a scope,

and John McClaim was with Ted and Tom Wally, and John McClaim walked in, and he said, this is the guy. Who's the first bandie sign? Or what were the first group of artists? The first thing we signed, the first thing was Gerardo Rico Swavi. Yeah, and you ever hit out of the box?

I wanted a hit. Yeah. I didn't give a fuck if it was a cha-cha-cha Yeah, I wanted my promotion team to have a hit. Yes, and it worked. Yes Then Tom Wally brought in Primus and helmet great who were great. Yeah, then we got two-pock and then we got no doubt How did two-pock come in? Through Tom Wow Tom was a great A&H argument. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So was John. Yeah. So I wasn't in the record business, so I didn't know anybody, but they would bring me in. Yeah. And I would get them out of their deals, and I would figure it all out. Yeah. It's like this guy that used to do PA for loan, was Manning, was loaned Justice with me, brought Gwen in.

I hired him at Innescope. And I went down to No Dowsary, Horsel, and I said,, blown justice with me brought Gwen in. I hired him at Inesco. And I went down to No Dows for Horsesle and I said, these guys are great, right? I saw her and they were huge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're saying, you know, you remember those days, right? Yeah, absolutely. So Dre, you know, Dre and Shug just came to my office

and John said, play it, and he played me the chronic. And I remember the time because they were friends of yours. I remember I tried to listen to Hank Shockley Records. And if you're an engineer and music and rock and roll, and you're trying to get everything to be really present and really powerful, and the songs don't go. You know, the whole subwoof, the whole, they didn't have the 808 on the control.

And then all of a sudden, Dre walks in and it sounds like Pink Floyd. Yeah. It's one of the greatest recordings I'd ever heard. Any kind of music. Yes. So now, I feel like I know something about this. Yeah, because Dre's music is not sloppy in any way. It's not like anybody else's.

No, thanks. And then, and also I don't understand samples. Yeah. And he, everybody's playing live. Got a few things in there, but the bass and drums are players, right? Yeah. So I'm like, who produced this? He said me.

I said, but who engineered it? He said me. I'll never forget it. I said, this guy will defy the inner scope. And that was it. That day, as soon as I heard that on my Tanoise that I mixed all the albums on, that was in my office, I brought them in London,

in Oxfordshire, I brought them. I brought them, I was doing an album with the motors in England, you know, and I heard these speakers, I went to the factory, I saw I brought them and I knew those speakers. And I just, I said, and I heard these speakers, I went to the factory, as long as I bought them, and I knew those speakers. And I just, I said, I got to get this. And I said to Shurgen Dredge, give me three weeks. Now, if you guys fuck around and go to a lot of different labels,

I'm going to hear about it and I'm going to bounce. I'll tell you what, they kept their word. Yeah. And I did. And we settled with Michael Harris Jerry Hela Sony, I mean there was a Rico case on these guys and And Brian Turner priority. I settled with everybody. They were all very happy. I wrote checks, right? and

That was it and then we put the record down, then the rest is, you know, tell me about Doug, your relationship with Doug. When do you first meet Doug? Stevie Nicks. Because she was on Atlantic. She was on Atlantic. And Doug was already running Atlantic or Ahmed was still there.

No, he was the head of Atco. Doug was the head of Atco and Ahmed was still running Atlantic. Atco was a so shaded label. So they brought in modern records. Danny Goldberg and Paul Fishkin, and they went to Doug. I see.

And Danny and Paul and Doug, they asked me to go meet Doug, because they wanted me to produce TV's album. They said he wanted me to meet the guy that was gonna produce the album. I had just done Damotor Appetos. And Stevie loved Damotor Appetos. She loved Tom Petty.

So. And you'd never worked with Stevie before this? No, no. Fleetwood Mac was like this giant supersonic California, I didn't even know they were English. You know what I mean? Just, I just knew it as out of my range, you know, background harmonies.

You know what I mean? Huge. It was like, what is that? Right? So I go to meet her and I get the gig, right? We're going to finishing up Tom and I was going to start her. Then we ended up doing hard promises first. And it's funny because we share Tom, you and I, you know. And you got him first. What? You had him first.

Unfortunately, I'm 10 years older than you. Yeah. I'm gonna do a lot of things first. You know, everything, everything we're talking about, you did first. I'll tell you, you know, I'll birthdays are a day apart, 10 years apart, right? You know, so I meet Stevie and you know, again,

I'm that guy from Brooklyn, I'm working in New York. I just got out the California. Let me tell you about recording studios. I remember that Elliott Shiner. I remember that throwback to that story where he had the girl. You know, meet girls in a recording studio. You know what I mean? You just don't.

It's like, it's not studio 54. It's record plan studio. Right? Yeah. So. Everybody's not Studio 54. It's Reckon Plant Studio, right? So. Everybody's there to work and it's your focus time. So girls are like some other thing that maybe I could figure that out someday. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't going to happen where you were working. It wasn't going to happen anyway.

Yeah. I was 26 years old. You know, I had a, I remember girlfriends growing up and stuff, but I had a few girlfriends here and there, but it was, I was just trying to learn how to make records, right? And you were very driven. It sounds like you were very, very driven. I was very driven till the day I retired.

Yeah. And that's why I retired. I didn't want to be driven anymore. It was a conscious thing. Nice. So now, I start going out with Stevie. How does that happen? I don't know.

I'd have to ask her. Now Stevie moves into my house and I'm producing Tom. And you know, Tom, he don't want to hear that your attention is someplace else ever about anything anything ever every so I'm like I had a house in Sherman Oaks. He was coming over one day. I said, look Stevie and it was an upside down I see you got a hide in the basement. I said, look just stay down there, you know, you have tea and toast and you know stayed out there, you know, you have T and toast and you know, and Tom came over and she was hiding in the basement. And then she's here as us playing, you know, and she always talks about she had her ear to the door, you know. And so, but you know, I was very clumsy, you know, and I

didn't, I didn't know how to do anything socially, anything. So incompetent outside of recording studio. I only felt safe in a recording studio. I don't know if you know that feeling, you must. I only felt like I was in water as a fish in the control room. Outside of that, I was flopping around. Yeah. You know, so, you Outside of that, I was flopping around. So, you know, that one I did Bella Donna, which was turned out to be an incredible album. That was the first album.

You know, Patty Smith had a band. We're going to that, but Patty Smith, you know, had it wait, we did Easter, right? But she had a band. So, you know, we have a band, a lot of the arrangements come built in. You work on stuff, but the arrangements are pretty much how they play. How they play, right? Stevie was a particular little challenge. I think you'll be interested in this. It was a real challenge. The reason why it was a challenge is she's coming out of Fleetwood Mac.

That's like coming out of the Beatles or the Rolling Stones. And they have three incredible singers and three incredible writers. I had friends of mine say to me, I think you make a mistake. I'm not sure she can sing a whole album. Yeah, because she never did before. Right. Well, you know, she said on the whole album, but was never the focus. And that was the first time I realized that conventional wisdom leads to conceptual blindness. Yes. Okay. So the conventional wisdom was she sang three songs.

Yes. Now, she doesn't have a band. She has these two girls singers that were her best friends, and I got to go create a sound for her, because she's very simple writer on the piano. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, I still feel responsible to help put a sound together. But I came from bands. I didn't want to put a sound together like Linda Roddstad. You know what I mean? Or those LA records, that were great records,

but they weren't the stones. It wasn't Tom Petty. It wasn't Patty Smith. It sounded like a band. Because they had that guitar play. They had that guitar play that only sounds like, the a Campbell or only sounds like Keith or only say, you know, or Bruce's band. He sounds like the wrecking crew.

Right, Roy Bitton, right? They're not on every record. Yeah. So you wanted the band to have personality too. Right. So what I did was, which I felt was a giant leap for me intellectually. I went out and I got guys from every band. So I got Roy Bitten from the East Street band. I got Ben Montenegg from the heartbreakers. I got Don Felder and Davey Johnston from the Eagles and Elton John.

Johnston from the Eagles and Elton John and I brought in Linda's drum crew, Keltner and Bob Glob. Incredible. Right. And what do you want to tell? Incredible. Right. So I had three guitar players, two keyboard players, David Johnston. I only wanted to play that 12 string guitar.

If you ever heard him play that, if he's ever around, I think he's still around, and you got to do a record, nothing sounds like David Johnston on a 12 string guitar, nothing. So you put Roy Bitten, that Montench, and David Johnston, now you've got an orchestra. Those three guys sound like nothing else together that Yeah, that anyone's ever heard and every one of them is As unique sounding as any of the great rock and roll band musicians in the world So that gelled like crazy and then we were able to make that record. So if you listen to a song like ages 17 Now Stevie wrote that over a police song. Doesn't begining of loops. So she made a 16-bar loop of a police song, bring on the night or something like that. And she sang.

The white winged up section was the 16 minutes in. So we had to spend three days playing it and piecing it together and if you listen to it the bass drum and the verse Because the police played like reggae kind of feel so there was a the bass drummers on the end Yeah, ticacacacacacacacacacacacacacac't know, that was the first album that I actually was a gigantic part of the arrangement, you know, because I had to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it wasn't a self-contained thing. Right, and it built it. But I didn't want to make a studio album with her.

Understood. It was so clear in my mind not to do that. Yeah. So cool. It was just a good idea, right? Absolutely. I know. That's what always comes down to. It's like it's it's a good idea. You don't even know where it comes from. It's just a inclination. And you don't know how to do it. No. So I just figured I'm going to go to the horses that got me here.

Roy Bitten. Yeah, Ben Mon. Yeah, I love David Johnson and we should play with Elton. Great to spend my forget it. It's unbelievable. He's pure soul. He's pure. So he goes to my dammit torpedoes because that's an interesting thing. I'll tell you because you produced that, Ben. Yeah. So when I was making Born and Run, and I'm mixing it, remember, none of us knew how to make a record. Me, John, Landau, or Bruce, but I had to mix it.

I never mixed an album before. So now I thought when you mix an album that you have to hear every instrument. So if you get a chance, listen to Born and Run, and you realize how complex those arrangements are, those chord changes, those bands playing a million different parts. So I just sat there until you could hear every instrument. But whenever I got, I get bored really quick. I think most record producers and DJs, like a DJ gets bored because he's looking at the

audience and he's bored before their boards we changes the song. Everybody goes, oh, I'm so glad he changed the song. It's just that he was bored five seconds before you. And that's the way I am mixing. If I'm mixing a record, I got to do something. But again, I quit producing when digital came out because I liked analog mixing. I only could do it if I'm pushing everything up around myself So whenever I got in trouble, I'm going to run I go to Roy Bitten and Ed no sh every time you go to him you push the goddamn thing up and he's doing something good happens Something great. He's never not playing something great. Yeah, so when I went to the hot breakers

I push Ben Monop if you listen to that album. Yeah, that when I went to the hot breakers, I pushed Ben Monop, if you listen to that album, Yeah, that organ is loud. I'm gonna listen to the album with this in mind. Yeah, I've listened to me in touch, but it's loud. That's a great way to listen to it. Yeah, no, it's loud and you know what else is loud because I used to argue with stand to drummer a lot, because but to me, he places on the back end of the beat. And it would always drive me crazy because I was hearing Tom's album, I was trying to make walls and bridges.

So I was thinking of drums like Max and Keltner. And this drum was like a loping kind of thing and he used to drive me crazy. And the guy who saved the day to me, probably didn't save the day for the world or Tom Petty, but say we're mixing the album and Jim Keltner is working next door. We're mixing the album at Cherokee.

Stix is at it and he goes, you know, no, me from John Lennon, right? Hey Jim, how you doing? I said, I said, Jim, I'm doing great. He goes, he has a film can in his hand, a little film can. And he goes, listen, this is what this, and it's refugee. He says, this is what this song needs.

Chuk chuk chuk chuk chuk chuk chuk chuk chuk chuk chuk chuk chuk. I said, would you go play it now? And he went, I'm played it. And I said, put all the other songs up. We put the fucking shaker on everything. It just glued everything together. When you hear the album, the fucking shaker is so loud. It's like,

and it made Stan work to me. So great. Stan is incredible. The sound of the drums is unbelievable. But so now we're doing an album and I always tell this story because it's important to show things you got wrong as to show things you got wrong. Yeah, as well as things you got right. Of course. So we're doing Belladonna and I feel even though we had at your 17, but I didn't know what at your 17 was. I realize now 40 years later that's everybody's

favorite one of us TV's favorite songs that people done. I don't know how you feel about that, but it's really, it's incredible. Like Trent Resner loves that song. You know, people that I never knew likes the, yeah. So Tom had a song, which just stopped dragging my heart around, that we weren't going to use, because it was like a blues song. And remember, my mind with Tom was making hits. That's what I thought we did. Because I consider music, you could have a credible song,

a moody credible song, you could have a hit song. But when you put them together, that's what you really want. It's my life by the animals, satisfaction by the rolling stones, like my fire by the doors. You know, we got to get out of this place, the animals, you know, Foxy lady. I want those records that come together and our mass appeal, but also give me the real deal. The sympathy for the devil. Absolutely.

Right. So Tom's singing stopped drag and wasn't a hit. So I said, let's give it a CV because I just done this with Bruce with Patty Smith and because the night. And what a great song because the night is. Yeah. That's a great. Just didn't want to use it.

It's a great song. The record is spectacular. It's the first record I ever produced. That's incredible. Yeah. Beautiful one. Yeah. The drums on that were something that Shelley and I, yeah, because tonight we just started working together and that was the first thing we did and because he was an engineer at the studio and so was I but I became a producer, but I wanted to have an engineer. Yeah. Because I could be free. Yeah. And that was the first, and we started mixing it at midnight

till 10 in the morning. It's incredible. And she sings it great. I know. She owns the song. You know, and I don't know why, but I just heard her on that song, you know, and I don't know how to be a fit. No, no, well, the job was,

Bruce wasn't, Bruce wasn't using it. It was thrown away. I said to him, he was throwing the sword in the way. He says, absolutely. Yeah. But Bruce throws away a lot of songs.

Yeah. He writes all of that. He wrote that in fire the same time and gave them both the way. He went to Robert Johnson. Incredible. You know, but although, you know, something that would talk about him

because that's where I learned a real work ethic with Springsteen. and incredible. You know, but although, you know, something that would talk about him because that's where I learned a real work I think with Springsteen. I learned that you don't stop until you get it. You know, Bruce said something brilliant. Said many things brilliant, but he said, I didn't want to be rich. I didn't want to be famous.

I didn't even want to be happy. I wanted to be great. And that's what he's like. And in those two years at that time, he was broke. And we were all struggling. And he just kept us all there. You know, I remember one night, we're mixing and she's the one. And you know what happens? My ears clogged up. Of course. But we only had nine days to mix eight songs. So I couldn't stop.

Cause yeah, remember he was getting dropped from Sony. I didn't know that. Yeah. I didn't know any of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But let's say we'll talk about Bruce B. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. That's unbelievable. Yeah. Anyway, so Tom, so I gave, we got a song, he sang on it. And then I didn't know how it worked. And Atlantic dropped the record right on top of his record. So basically, the waiting, Stevie's record steps on the waiting. That's right.

That's unbelievable. That's bad luck. I think it was just, way that the cards went. I think the label got hungry, wanted to have a hit. And those days nobody gave a fuck. They hated the other labels. You know what I mean? It's how they gave a fuck.

Yeah, big time. And I felt responsible. You know what I mean? And you know, I always felt, because we were related. We were related. And, you know, as years went on, I always thought, you know,

I should have protected him somehow. Yeah. But I didn't even know you could do that. No. And, but yet, you know, it's like saying somebody ahead of their time, I never want to hear that. I said, Jimmy, you were ahead of your time. No, I was, I just didn't get it right. You know what it's like saying somebody ahead of their time. I never want to hear that. I said, Jimmy, you were ahead of your time. No, I wasn't.

I just didn't get it right. You know what I mean? I don't care that I had the idea before anybody else. I get that I didn't do it. You know, so I felt that I should have done something different to make the result come out different. Although when I go back, It wasn't in your control.

That's a part of it too. But I, you know something, Rick, there was something I was when I was younger that I got on the control. And I really have a control as I get older. I was too hungry. And you make those kind of mistakes when you're too hungry. You just, you push it.

Yeah. And you... Short-sighted. Yeah, and you really. Yeah, I felt I I felt I made a great record, but but although the waiting is one of Tom's best songs. Absolutely. But there was something about it that wasn't as commercial as refugee. Yeah. but there was something about it that wasn't as commercial as refugee. Do I know why? No. No.

You never know. No. Oh, I knew as I played it for somebody I really respected before it came out. I played it for Richard Perry. Yeah. And he said, this is not as big as the last album. Mm-hmm.

I was devastated. Because I wore the same jeans as the last album. I fucking knew. You were into stuff like that to a point of Psychosis Wow, I just Did every studio same assistant and everything had to be exactly the same because I wanted it the same results Yeah, and you don't know what it is. Maybe it's the lucky pants, right? It could be right could be could be anything could be anything and that was something that you could control the pants

That's exactly right. That's the beauty of it It's like if you know if I do everything that I could possibly do it's certainly not gonna hurt my eyes And I felt he wrote the songs which he did yes, but there's something about I don't know Maybe you've done ours with somebody where the follow up just didn't match up or something and you felt you had it but the world thought you didn't. Yeah, also sometimes it's the where the artist is at. I had the experience with Tom. You know, I made great albums with Tom and I made less great albums with Tom too based

on where he was at. And yeah, do you know, it's like, I know. Not everyone is great all the time forever Yeah, and you don't stop but the magic of a record is so Fucking complex that no one gets it people use music as like chewing gum. Especially now They they have no idea where comes from how come you know if you may if you make classic movie People dissected and they don't dissect record. They just take okay next, you know, and I don't know I always that kind of always felt like I learned a lesson there and And I became it was not in your control. I mean you feel bad and you wish there was something you could have done

Because hot promises were so important to me. Yeah Did Tom call you or talk about it? Well, Tom said one day, which really got to me. So I'm on the road. And three months in, he says, they're asking me to sign them to repeat us. I mean, so millions of albums and everything. But it didn't matter.

The waiting and woman and love weren't big hit records. I remember going to the record store that I remember, the childhood record store that I went to called TSS Times Square Store, which was a big box store that sold everything, but there was a record department. That's the record, that was my record department growing up on Long Island where I went to buy records.

And I remember seeing the cover of Dammit torpedoes every time I went to the record store. It was always, there was this back wall where they put like the important records. There were stacks of records everywhere. But on the back wall where you could see the covers, Damn the port torpedoes was always there. Now we're getting to close again. I bought them that sport jacket.

Wow. Wow. Good look. It was great like right. Yeah. It. Right. It was a great look. I think hard promises had a cool cover too. Yeah, yeah, it was in a record store. You want to listen to a great Tom Petty record. I think I told you this was before. Play Rebels. It is an incredible, incredible record. Do you ever listen to Rebels? I'm sure I listen, because it has Southern accent on it. Yeah.

And of course, you hear the Johnny Cash version of Southern accent. Oh, I listen to every song you do with Johnny Cash over the last two weeks. I just put up fucking Danny Boy. Yeah. Okay, every fucking song. I mean, my wife wants to kill me.

She loves Johnny Cash, but she just, it's enough enough. Yeah, I just play it constantly. And there's some of them are really sad. It's heavy. Those albums can make me cry. I think they have to go back. And they should go back on the Grammys and give albums we missed. Wow. That's a good idea. I feel like the Grammys are obsolete. I know that, but how is what's his name? Harvey, he's trying to do better. They are obsolete. You know what I mean? Every hour, my just mentioned, didn't win, then win a Grammy. You know what I mean? And he all want to run. You know, Dems or Pitos, none of them got belt down. None of them got grabbed. It's always a disconnect between what's popular and then what's critically, you know, like two, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no't get out of my ear. Yeah, amazing. It's amazing, right?

It's amazing. Yeah, I don't fucking, you know, anything else. You can stop right there. You think it's possible for people to care about music in the same way, considering the fact that it's going by the way it's going by. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, since the streaming revolution, our relationship to music has changed, where even the things we love, there's still things on this conveyor belt that are going by all the time. Well, there's one of the big problems. I've done a lot of thinking about this because I had a streaming service, I had a regular company, right? And I studied popular culture. That's what I do. I try to impact popular culture

whenever I count or be part of something that's impacting popular culture. So what's happening now is kids have so much video games, like there's so much shit including themselves. So not only do they have their schoolwork, but they're trying to get likes and looking at their friends like, you can't do that while listening to music. So if you said that.

Now while really listening to music the way we listen to music. So take a kid and you say, you know what? You miss your homework. I'm taking you're only allowed two apps. One of them's not a streaming music service. out two apps. One of them is not a streaming music service. YouTube, TikTok, music is fifth. It's not the thing. And now all of a sudden what happened Rick is that fame is replaced great as a currency. When you were growing up, great was the currency. Even if you were a pop band, you were trying to be better than the other pop band. Now, it's going to be more famous. And you want to, because that, you don't have to repeat great.

Instagram is going to keep you around and keep you making money, whether you make a great album for your second album or not. You see it all the time. There are artists out there that have just average albums after they come out, and they're bigger. They get television shows,

they get on the voice or this or that. Doesn't matter anymore, because fame has replaced great. Am I, am I a pain? No, it's interesting Yes, it's a it's a famous currency. It's currency. That's the that's the currency It used to be had to be great to be famous. Yeah, I have a hit or something. You don't have to be famous Not even a little bit not even the thought you don't you don't do anything

right so That's when you ask me though people, so listen, I think the answer that is unless Someone figures out a hurricane way of reintroducing music, which somebody will yeah to make it, you know hip-hop's 50 years old Yeah, unbelievable, you know what I mean hip-hop is 50 years old, right? So you need another Something yeah, right? Yeah hip-hop was the last big movement. Yeah, I guess so It's 50 years old. Right. So you need another something. Yeah. Right. Hip hop was the last big movement. Yeah.

I guess so. Yeah. It was after punk. Yeah. It was after disco. Yeah. EDM. Never quite got as big as hip hop.

No. No. It didn't change the way people dress EDM. You know, punk changed that rock and roll. And disco. people dress EDM, you know, pump, change that rock and roll and disco, EDM, no one, that means popular. It's amazing the impact this go had because it was a short window. It was only a couple of years at disco

because it burned. It was great. It burned, it burned. Because it was got too big too fast. It's just got burnt. And it's that same style. It's just burned. And that's burned.

And I guess maybe that could have happened to hip hop too, but hip hop keeps reinventing itself. Yeah. Oh no, disco didn't. But you know, guys like us go back and listen to saddened I fee with that fucking album. That the bg's they were unbelievable. What record makers? Unbelievable.

And they were scorned. They were scorned. I interviewed Barry Gibb. It was great. Oh I was so interesting. I bet so cool. So smart. I bet. Yeah. You know, the other guy is really good. You know, Well, Jeff Lynn. Yeah, unbelievable talent. Unbelievable. I thought when I heard him put those backing vocals on free fallen, it was one of those, why didn't I think of that moment? I said, oh, fuck, he put EO lows vocals on Tom Petty and it worked. And the songs were so good on the album. I mix Evo women.

Every song, every song in that album was great. But at least the album with free fallen. It's funny, Tom did his three best albums with three different producers. Yeah. Ralf Flowers, Fomo, Fomo Fio, and Damitorpitos. Yeah. And in each case, it was the first album. I always felt like when I worked with Tom the first time, he really wanted to show me how good he was. Yeah. And after that, I don't think he cared. He cared about making the best stuff You know what you cared about making it as good as he could and doing what he wanted But he didn't have that feeling like I want to impress this guy. Yeah No, we were we were it was magic when we first got together But then like anything I did three albums would buy also did half of Southern accents. Wow

Great I did three albums, but I also did half of Southern accents. Wow, great. It gave Tom his comeback. Don't come around here no more, because he was kind of cold. But it also messed up Southern accents because Southern accents was a theme album. But without don't come around here no more on it, it's not, he doesn't get on MTV. Yeah, that was like the step into the future. Yeah.

It was programmed, it was different. It was Dave. Yeah, it was embraced. Because I got that song for Stevie. Wow. I went and got, I heard the rhythmics. I said, oh, fuck this. I went down to Dave's concert, the first play in L.A. I brought him to Stevie's house.

And he played me that drumbeat. And he just was singing himself don't come around here normal. I said, holy shit. Stevie Nick singing don't come around here no more. That has to win. So as David would say, she was starting to sing Shakespeare over the verses. Right. So so Dave says it's not working. I said, let me tell you something, Tom will write the shit out of this. He's got come back Yeah, I'm got it back like that

See you got it amazing, but no one ever mentions that including Tom. That's amazing, right? So it's funny no one no one knows the story so Tom comes in and he's writing it and he goes, you know, I mean I'm gonna take this one. I said, great. And Stevie didn't care one way or the other. And Tom got, don't come around here no more. And it completely re-energized Tom's career.

Yeah. That's Stevie singing background on it. Incredible. Right. Those are great stories, aren't they? Yeah, amazing. Amazing. And all stuff you can't plan, you can't stories. Yeah, amazing, amazing. And all stuff you can't plan, you can't, you know, it's like, no, because she got to

be, you know, spontane, record producers have to be spontaneous. Yeah. You know, how do you feel about producing records? These days, you still enjoy it? It's fun. It's fun because it goes from something that either you don't know what it is, or it's not so good, and you watch, I feel like I have no control over the situation. I'm not doing anything, but we're like playing and trying things, let's try it like this, let's try it like this, let's try it like this.

And then all of a sudden something happens and you can't believe it, how like that transformation of holy smokes. Yes. I think I'm addicted to that experience of, I can't believe this is as good as it is. I think about producing is I have to go, I could never go in again, but I would have to do it with somebody

that's making their best work. Yeah. It's hard to do that with somebody who's older, you know. The only, the part you did it, Daniel and Waw, with Bob Dylan. Yeah. That record man. That record is awesome. Just awesome. There's one even after that, a couple after that, that I think Bob made himself called modern times. That's not the one that. No, that's post Daniel Dunwa.

A couple post. And I remember going to Petty's house, so I heard it and it blew my mind. And I was at a point where I wasn't necessarily thinking the new deal now I'm just gonna be the greatest thing because they weren't, you know, they're hitting miss And I went to Tom's house. I said you got to hear this one last time you saw Tom Some on the beach in Malibu

probably a year before he passed and I was Invited and planned I'm going to see him at the Hollywood Bowl, which is one of his last shows, maybe it's last show. I got a story about that show. But I just felt like I don't really want to drive in. Rick, you're freaking me out. Same. This is so weird for me. I had the tickets.

I had the people meeting me backstage. I had everything tickets, I had the people meeting me backstage, I had everything. Yes. And it was six o'clock on a Sunday in Malibu. And I said, I got a drive to the fucking Hollywood bowl. And till today, I feel so shitty about not going. Yeah. I have a different opinion.

I like it at your opinion. I'll take that. I feel like we weren't supposed to see him that night. That's what it is. We were not supposed to see him that night. And it worked out exactly the way it was supposed to. Because otherwise, we'd have been there. It really, then Stevie called me on the day it happened

and just said, come over here right away. I said, I heard he died. He said, how could it be? It just seemed so out of the like far fetched. Well, I mean, you knew him better in the later years than I did. I didn't see him that much. Although he did do the defiant ones for me,

which was really sweet and he was great. But I went to see him when he was on the life support. And it was weird because I walk in there, I walk in there, I think it was St. John's or UCLA in Santa Monica. And I steve he's there and I walk up and I go and I look in this room and Tom took up to the machine and you know you know the way that the machine breeds for you he was gone they just had him unplugged him yeah so I whispered something and it is here you know and I walked outside and I saw Elliot Roberts and Tony to meet triadist and the band.

And for the first time in my life, I said, so this is what it's gonna look like. Yeah. You know what I mean? You say, I know, just, my friends will be here. Yeah, this is what happens to everybody. Yeah. This is how it goes.

Yeah, I mean, but that's the night Tom Petty that that's what I was I If I me tell you it's very possible, but there was a hospital in Malibu He would have been able to go rather than getting those drugs wherever the fuck he got the fentanyl from yeah He may have been able to just go there to an emergency room and say my hip hurts. Yeah, he'll be alive today Yeah, I'm really gonna do right. mean, we got so much to talk about. I love talking to you. It's a pleasure hearing you share the wisdom of the life. It's like, no one else can tell the story, but you.

You know, Rick, this is where I am now. Five years ago, I retired, right? I retired because I couldn't work the way I worked and live the life I wanted to live. I wasn't able to do what you were doing. Yeah. I'm going to work, but I'm going to go to Italy for three weeks. Yeah.

If I was in Italy for three weeks, I was thinking about the fucking guitar part or whatever, whatever today's guitar part was, the headphones, the Apple music. We're going to win, lose, draw, but of course. So I had to quit. I wonder if I ever have the, if I could ever bring myself to that. It's interesting, it's inspirational. I did it at 65.

To hear it, yeah. And I'll tell you what, I think you could feel it in me. I'm a different, carcadian rhythm. I'm a different, I'm in a different space. I feel it, this is the most relaxed conversation I've ever had in the video. I just feel, I just feel great space. I feel it. This is the most relaxed conversation I've ever had in you. I just feel I just feel great and I do things. Of course. I help my wife with her roller skating rinks and I help Jamie with network. I help my kids. I'm building high schools with

Dre and I do a lot of you. You do it interesting, but you don't feel like you're on the hook. The hook, the word, the hook isn't in my mouth. Great. That's the feeling. I understand. No, I know the feeling. And there's always somebody on the, and you know what? I don't want to have to convince people of anything anymore. I don't want to have to convince people on giant deals, or making the tambourine a little louder. I don't want to convince anybody of anything if you want to play we could play Ever since I retired My medical numbers have gone through the roof. I feel relaxed me and my wife are doing great

And my kids I just look I'm gonna be 70. I'm retired five years. Fantastic. I don't miss one Look, I'm gonna be 70. I'm retired five years. Fantastic. I don't miss one fuck. By the way, I told Bruce asked me when I was retired I said I can be my retire. I said look man. I just left Italy with you. I Went to Milan 80,000 people yelling Bruce. Yeah, if they were yelling Jimmy, I wouldn't retire either Yeah, it's different. I talked to scumbags all day. Yeah And I don't want to do that. Yeah, I understand that. I don't want to do it. I do. I understand that.

That's a big subject for our next talk about the people you have to deal with. Yeah. I love this, right? I love sitting in your phone, right? It's fun, right? Oh, my God. It's fun. I think it's like, it's posterity.

Well, first of all, this is lost information. No one knows. Well, you know, you're correctly now. You're like a... Thank you. you