Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Joaquin Phoenix

Episode Date: October 23, 2024

Joaquin Phoenix is widely regarded as one of the best actors of his generation, known for his intense and eccentric on-screen portrayals in period dramas, thrillers, and psychological films. He was raised among siblings who were largely involved in acting, including his late brother, River Phoenix, alongside whom he began his acting career in the 1980s. He made his big-screen debut in SpaceCamp (1986), and he earned his first starring role in the Cold War drama Russkies (1987). Phoenix is known for his commitment to embody each of his roles, particularly in his role as Arthur Fleck in Todd Phillips’ Joker, for which he won the Academy Award for Best Actor. His filmography includes powerful performances in Gladiator, Her, You Were Never Really Here, Walk the Line–where he won a Golden Globe for his portrayal of Johnny Cash–and most recently, Joker: Folie à Deux. In addition to his acting career, Phoenix is an animal rights activist and has taken up producing films like Gunda, and he continues to leave an indelible mark on the world of cinema. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Squarespace https://squarespace.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Vivo Barefoot http://vivobarefoot.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://drinklmnt.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ House of Macadamias https://www.houseofmacadamias.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter

Tetragrammaton. I do think that in those moments when thought stops and something emerges, it doesn't invalidate the thought process for me. I don't feel like, oh, well, that was a waste of time. I shouldn't have put so much thought into it because now when I'm not thinking something's emerging, I think they are interconnected in some way that is beyond my understanding, at least. When something takes over that's good, what do you think that might be?

I mean, hopefully it's just part of something that's existed and is accessible to anyone that maybe is open and it's accessible to anyone that maybe is open to it, right? You're just kind of like riding this wave. And I don't know precisely what it is or its importance or whether it's important at all. Every once in a while you have on a project, there's several times on the project where it's like.

It's not there. Yeah, but all around it's like, it's now or never. Yeah, yeah. We're on a clock, and there's a lot of people that are waiting, and they've done their work, and their work's fuckin' solid. And are you gonna be solid? And that's really uncomfortable to kind of look up

and have people looking at you and you realize, I don't have it, it's not there. Yeah. So in that moment, what do you do? What happens? Well, I've got a partner in the filmmaker, right? So a lot of times you just gotta work your way through into like, well, what isn't working? What's uncomfortable? What's the block? A lot of times, you just got to work your way through

into like, well, what isn't working? What's uncomfortable? What's the block? And sometimes you can identify. Sometimes it's, sometimes it's maybe it's something in the writing or it's something energetically, it's about moving through the room. I think oftentimes it's, again, it's a thought process that's getting in the way that I can't identify. When I was younger, I was working with Ridley Scott.

It was such an important moment for me, but we were doing the scene and I had just really overwhelming powerful feeling of, I didn't know what it was, I didn't identify it with any kind of blocking or how it was going to emerge. I just remember I had this feeling of I didn't know what it was. I didn't identify it with any kind of blocking or how it was going to emerge. I just remember I had this feeling and I knew that I wanted to start off this moment

just like looking at myself, like looking at my hands and I didn't even know why, what that was. And Ridley was really supportive of that and I don't know if I was 24 or 25 or something. And so we did this scene and we did the master. And there was this feeling of like, okay, well, we're in something. This was in the latter part of the day after lunch, we started the scene. And so by the time we got this master, we really said, look,

we're not gonna be able to get to coverage tonight, right? So we're just going to do it. We just got the master. I go, no problem. Because why? Because I'm the shit. I know what I'm doing. I fucking got it.

It just hit me. I'm riding this thing for good. And I made that horrible mistake of going home and feeling like I accomplished something. We came back the next day and I walked in like, I got this. It's like that. A little bit of just certainty or arrogance or whatever it was. Just like a lack of reverence for this thing that I had stumbled into prior.

And we go to shoot the first take of the coverage. And I mean, it's instantly, it comes to a screeching halt. I can't even get through the take because I'm so embarrassed. And I thought that I owned it and I thought I was in control. And it just slapped me in the fucking face, man. So remember just going, that's it, I'm lost and there's no magic and Ridley came to me and he was like, what's going on?

I said, I don't know, it's just like, looking at my hands, turning this way, I walk over here. I know it now, it's already been done. So there's nothing left. And he says, do the opposite of everything you're doing. And I was like, what? He said, just do the opposite. I said, yeah, but that's not, what the fuck is that?

You know, plus it's not gonna match, even if it was good, right? So you think you have to repeat your rules. I said, who cares about matching? Just do the opposite. And so I looked at the back of my hands, and then instead of turning left, I turned right. And then instead of saying this line loud, I said it quietly.

And it was terrible. He said, go again. Do it backwards. Just again, backwards is terrible. And by the third or fourth take, without even being aware of it, I suddenly was going back to matching my things and I felt this thing coming back and it was just a rediscovery and it wasn't adhering to what happened the day before and it wasn't desperately searching and trying to come back to this thing. And something emerged there that was different and maybe better than the previous day.

And that was a really important moment for me. And to think that such a simple direction that had to do with like just physicality could alter and open up whatever it is that's receiving all of these other things. When the viewer sees emotion on the screen, does that mean you're experiencing that emotion or not necessarily? Not necessarily. Tell me about that. you're experiencing that emotion or not necessarily? Not necessarily. Tell me about that.

Well, I mean, it's surprising. There's some, I think there are times where, you know, all of these elements, the music, the camera lens, the movement of the camera, the color of the wallpaper, the music, the camera lens, the movement of the camera, the color of the wallpaper, the lighting, where it sits in the story, in the film as a whole. All of these things are working to affect the viewer. I've seen rough cuts of films and watching a scene going,

this is terrible. There's a lot of emotion there, but this seems way too, what is going on? I'm being so confused because I was like, I know that I'm coming from the right place. That's what the character would be feeling and it is that extreme, but it's not working. That's so strange to me.

Then I spoke to the director. I said, we've got to reshoot that. This is really painful. It's an important scene, and it just feels wrong. And he said, okay, we can talk about it. There are things we are going to redo, but let me just work on it a little bit. And then he asked me to come in a month later

or something to watch another cut, and that scene came on, and it a little bit. And then he asked me to come in a month later or something to watch another cut and that scene came on and it was pretty good. Wow. And... How? What changed? I don't know exactly. Yeah, yeah. But where it sat in the story that you just were connected to the character in that moment more. And so you understood like what they were going through

made sense and you slowly identified. And while it still felt big in a way, extreme, you understood why, you felt it with them. Where part of that, there was a distance and so you just, it felt like somebody was being histrionic. And that was a really, you know, an amazing, like humbling moment as an actor,

where you really have such an appreciation for a filmmaker and the process of editing and what goes into it, how much you can shape a moment. You talked about the master shot that was the magical shot, and then coming back the next day to do the other shots. Is it always done that way? Is there always a master shot that was the magical shot, and then coming back the next day to do the other shots. Is it always done that way? Is there always a master shot, and then you have to repeat it?

No, and the few directors that I've worked with recently, oftentimes will start with the coverage with me, because I have, I do get bored easily. Yeah. And once that thing has happened, once there's been some discovery, it's very hard for me to go into coverage.

Like if that's happening in the master, part of the thing with shooting a master is you're establishing movement as well. Just your physicality in the space. And then sometimes you get to the coverage and you're like, I don't want to go over there anymore. You already did that. It's like, well, you've gone.

And so part of it is like, OK, we'll find in the coverage what feels best. Is there any way to do with two cameras, do both at once? Sometimes they can do that. I mean, Ridley definitely, he's got like four cameras going. So it can be done sometimes. And there's value in that. And sometimes there's also value in getting to the place where you go, there's nothing left.

I don't want to do this. And you push through and it's true, there was nothing left the way that you were approaching it, but now you're forced to approach it in a new way and something else emerges. So I don't go in saying, hey, this is the way that I work, because I always feel like I don't know what's best. And you know, sometimes the director will come and say,

should I shoot your coverage first or should I shoot the other actor's coverage first? And I go, I don't know. You should make the decision what's best for you. Every once in a while you feel like something is right on the edge of coming out and let's go for it. As soon as you try it, you're wrong, it wasn't there.

You know? Yeah, you never know in advance, can you? No, I think sometimes your body's buzzing. You just go, there's something, but it might be like just the buzzing before disaster strikes. You've gotta shut down. Yeah.

You know? In the example again of the Master Shot, when there's magic, can you always feel it? No. No, and I mean, look, magic. I don't know if it's fucking magic. It's just like whatever that. It's a good word.

It's a good word to explain, because we don't know what it is anyway. Right. Yes, both things. There are times where something appears to be magical and seems really great, and vice versa. There's times where you're like, whoa, there was something there, and then you see it, you're like, eh, wow, there was something there. And then you see it, you're like, eh.

You know, wow, wasn't that great? And other times you're just like, yeah, that was nothing. It was kind of a nothing scene. And you see it, you go like, that was much more depth than I thought that I felt at the time. Like, there was something. And those are the moments in some ways

that you're most appreciative of, right? Yeah, when you think like maybe it's not great and then you see it back and it really works. Yeah. Feels good. Yeah, it feels good and it's humbling. It's like, it's good to just be reminded. Yeah, we don't know.

I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Can't know. No. How would you say your relationship to performance has changed over the course of your life? I don't know.

I don't know that it has. I want to perform less. I want to think of it less as a performance, but I don't know that that's the case. You know, when I was young, I mean, my siblings used to sing on the streets. You know, we'd go to Westwood, my brother would play guitar, and the four of us younger kids would sing,

and we would do rehearsals with my dad overseeing it. And for some reason, it's just, my nature was to be in opposition to any suggestion that my dad might have had. And with it, this attitude, or this belief or feeling of like, just get me out there. Let me do my thing.

But like, put me in like a real world scenario. Because I can't be on the holodeck right now with you, right, coming up with this thing. Because it's not real. We're in this living room. And I can't do it. But we're on the streets and there's a little crowd there, and I actually have to go out with the hat to collect a dollar here.

Let me go. I think in some ways, maybe there's still a part of me that has that. That's like, let's go into the real world situation where I might like totally fuck up in front of everybody. And then maybe I can, you know, I wonder whether, I'm 49 years old, it was like over 40 years ago. And I probably wonder if I'm still fueled by that same thing in some ways.

Was that indicative of your overall relationship with your dad or only is it related to the playing out? I mean, I think with everything that I do, a little bit, I'm a bit cursed with like a don't tell me, you know. But I'm always reminded how much I need someone else and how appreciative I am. But no, I think in terms of other things in life, I think that I was, you know, open,

I just felt felt that creative part couldn't have... I understand that. Yeah? Yeah. I'm actually very difficult for the filmmakers I've worked with because they are, 90% of the time in the last 15 years, I'd say 90%, maybe 90% of the directors I've worked with,

they were the authors, they wrote the script as well. Right. And usually, they're the kind of filmmakers where it's quite personal. You know, it's not like kind of hired to write a genre piece. It's something that, you know, comes from a very personal place. So it must be incredibly difficult for them to hand it

off. And I think that I am somebody that feels like I need to feel like this is my life, not this is your life that you know that I'm plugging into. This is my life. That's what makes it a real collaboration though. You're not just a stand in for them. You're there to contribute.

Right. And but it still must be very difficult for them. And there are times where, you know, sometimes the contribution, you know, I feel like sometimes they look at you like, like your child, where you're like, I can see that you are going to go up those stairs in a dangerous way that's wrong, and I want to tell you stop. But I also know that I have to allow you to make that mistake, and you're going to be a better man because of it.

But it must be so... I mean, I know how hard it is with my son, and I know sometimes directors just look and go, like, oh, what you're doing is just so stupid. That's so wrong. You're just approaching That's so wrong. You're just approaching the scene all wrong. And I have to go, I know, I know, trust me, I feel how bad this is. Just please let me fuck up.

Please, like, let me just get this wrong, because if I can own the mistake, and I can live in it, then like, maybe. You can find your way. Maybe, and yes, and I need you to tag me here and there and pick me up a little bit, help me dust off. And sometimes you're like, yeah, if you see something like,

you know, when you have a camera, there's a frame and you as the person within the frame, you're going, well all of this is happening, it's all, what's going on with my leg here? And I go, I don't know, we're not seeing any of that. So you may think that this is standing out and this is what's working and this isn't working, you're wrong.

It might not even be on the camera. Here's the only thing that matters. Wow. And sometimes that's like, okay, thank you. That's interesting. Yeah. Wouldn't have thought of it. You know, for most of my career,

I didn't watch playback. And fairly recently, you know, five years ago, I started kind of, you know, watching it more. Not all the time, just, you know, part of it was to just to have that, you know, perspective to sit with the director and watch a take and to talk about it a little bit. It actually, it seemed like it was helpful in some situations, but maybe not. It just feels like it might have been. It didn't feel like it screwed you up though.

No, I think I got over that when I was younger, it just made me so self-conscious and insecure. And I think as I was older, it just made me so self-conscious and insecure. And I think as I was older, it just made me recognize all the other work that's happening around me. Just like, okay, hold on. I don't have to deliver the entirety of this film in this one moment.

The whole movie is not resting on this one take that I'm doing. And I'm actually a part of it, and that's why you're like, oh, fuck, whoa. That lighting is, that's doing most of the work. I just need to just. Yeah, you just need to be there. Be there. Yeah.

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Visit squarespace.com slash tetra and get started today. Would you say you live in your head or your body? I mean, I probably in my head more. Yeah. Always been the case? I think so. Yeah, I'm not sure, but I am also so aware of feeling and emotion in my body and I'm not sure which one, you know.

Would you say you are moved through the world or you move yourself through the world? Both things, I mean, this feels like what I am navigating always in life and in my work. Ultimately, I feel like I don't have control, but I do so much work to get there. There are times where I think I do like a fight. I like a fight and I'm comfortable losing.

I'm comfortable laying on the ground and going, okay, okay, okay, you win, you win. You got me. But I don't start there. And part of me wants to, part of me, maybe sometimes I do, sometimes I, hopefully I'm getting better at just coming in and saying, okay, what is it?

Right? Not every at bat is a home run. It's not. It's impossible. Yeah, every scene can bat is a home run. It's impossible. Every scene can't be a special scene. It shouldn't be. There are some scenes that are just like connective tissue. But there are times where everyone knows like

Oh boy, this is an important one. You walk on set just it always just feels like, dead man walking. Like, walking on set, just go like, oh man, this is gonna be bad, you know? This is gonna be bad.

Have you found any practices that help you get through the difficulty of the job? to get through the difficulty of the job? I don't know that I want to. That's a good answer. Again, I think there's something that feels right about it being difficult, because here's the thing, in some ways it's fucking easy in that there's a whole support system set up,

particularly as an actor and as a known actor, things are set up to make it as easy as possible for you, right? Everyone's there like, can I get you anything? Can I get, you know? And so in some ways I feel like I have multiple takes. It's not like you're shooting the free throw and you're like down by two

and somebody's screaming fans are like, fuck you, you suck! Like, there's nothing that. The other actors are like, hope you fucking bite. You know what I mean? It's like, you think about other things where like professionals are at it. That's so funny. Right? So in some ways, everybody is there to help me be the best that I can be. And, you know, maybe there's some part of me that feels like, well, that can't be

good. You know, it's okay, but let's, we also need to make sure there's some fire here. There's something to fight against. Tell me about meditation. Is it something that you've practiced? It's the thing that I'm always trying to practice and feel like I'm failing at. I've had some good runs and then I'll just lose it.

I mean, I literally have in my calendar on repeat more night meditation to remind me to get up. Like, okay, take advantage of this time. And it's been a bit more difficult with my kids, you know, just because, you know, I could get up and make breakfast for my son. So I'm just not forcing myself to get up early. I was in this thing where I just was waking up at 5 a.m.

So that was easier, but I've struggled with it recently. How would you say the dynamics of your current little family compares to the dynamics of your childhood family? Well, I mean, you know, our circumstances are so wildly different. I mean, I think, because literally just this morning at two and my son woke up and he's about to leave. And our youngest, she's a bit colicky.

It's a really difficult one. A baby's crying like that. It's just so hard. I've been away just doing press for a week. Because my wife has just been doing this on her own. And it's just so much for her. She's doing okay with it? She's strong?

Yeah, she's amazing. She's amazing. But, you know, I go, how come my parents have five kids and they're having fucking money? No, nothing. I mean, like, the difference in wealth between like my parents and me, it's insane.

And so, look, obviously, I have a lot of my dad's biology and personality, you know, everything. And yet I have such a different support structure. He didn't have the family that I have. His father was long gone out of the picture before he was in his adolescence. And my mom, she's just an incredible, grounded, strong and beautiful woman and my sister's great siblings. So my kids now have that. I mean, they have that and my mom and my sisters

are great aunts there and they're cousins. So it feels, you know, I think when I was a kid, it was an isolated family. I was very much out of step or fashion with what was kind of acceptable in some ways, right? My parents were a counterculture. And growing up, I think it was just probably more difficult to find like-minded people, where now I

think it's much easier. And so people feel a connection and support in whatever their beliefs may be. Whereas at the time, we were always like the only people that were vegan or were being homeschooled or whatever kind of alternative medicinal practices that they may have been interested in. And so, that's only my kids are not going to experience,

right, probably more than likely. They are in a world. They won't feel as much like outsiders. I don't think so. How was your parents' relationship? Did they get along well? There was deep, profound love and the unity, like a shared goal,

a shared belief, and a shared foundation, and a real powerful love. But then I think after they'd been together for, they divorced when they they divorced when I was, when they split up when I was maybe 15. So, you know they were probably. When it happened, did it make sense to you that they split up or was it?

Oh yeah, I was like fuck please. Like no, no, no, no problem with it at all. Because you know, you're kids. You love both your parents. You go whatever makes you guys happy. Yeah. Of course. And I think, for me, I was old enough. I imagine every kid feels differently.

So I don't know what my youngest sibling feels like. It would be different being 12 years old versus being 15. But for me, it was fine. Tell me about living in Costa Rica. My dad first went there in, God, 1991 or something like that. It was very different. It was like an eight-hour,

nine-hour journey. There's a bus from San Jose that's like harrowing. And of course, you know, when you're 14 or 15 and you think you're invincible, it's just like the best time. You know, it's just like, oh, so exciting. It was amazing. I think you would take a ferry across

and you'd hope to catch the right ferry. If the bus was late, you might miss that one. Sometimes you have to stay the night. Sometimes you make it. Get across the other side, all dirt roads, bumps. It was adventurous and anybody that was there was there because they were adventurous. It was just a small little town and just great people.

A really eclectic group of people. Where were the people from that you'd meet? Everywhere. All over the world. German, Swiss, Italian, yeah, all over the world. It was this spot, again, this is like before the internet, so how, this is all just like word of mouth. How do they even know, yeah. One person goes down there and tells their friends.

What do you think all the people who went there were looking for? What was the shared interest? I don't know, I think some of them were just wanted to escape. They weren't even looking for something, they were looking to get away. They always felt like there were a few people

that seemed a little shady. Like those expats that are like, but I think simplicity, a return to nature. We got there, almost everybody rode horses. There weren't like cars. That's cool. It's like everybody.

It's just like the owner of this bar hotel had a car, and this one as well. Everyone else had horses? H and this one as well. Everyone else had horses? Horses or walked. That was it. You just walked. Did you learn to ride a horse there?

I did. Yeah. Were your parents into theatrical stuff? Were they into performance? I think my dad, you know, harbored a desire, but it was so far removed from what his experience was growing up. You know, he was a real, you know, working class kid from Fontana.

And again, just a real tough upbringing. So I don't think he could even dream of something. And I think it was like like he was also probably like, if he told his brothers that he wanted to do a school play, they'd probably call him a pussy. And you know, it's that kind of culture, you know? So I don't think that, you know, my dad was probably the real like,

I mean, I know he was a very sensitive person, you know, just like deeply sensitive, but he he was a very sensitive person, you know, just like deeply sensitive, but he came from a tough place, you know, and he spent most of his teenage years in juvenile hall, and he was a fighter, and I mean, I remember, he wasn't a fighter, but he had it in him, and he wanted a peaceful resolution. Yeah, but he would not fucking back down,

and I saw him in some situations that just scared the fuck out of me. Wow. But also, you felt like, well, this wild animal has got my back. It's gonna do whatever it can, you know? He's a really interesting guy. And he also, also played guitar.

I think he probably did have a desire to be a singer-songwriter. Again, I don't think he really knew how to do that. Yeah. What was his taste in music? What did he listen to? Well, when I was older, he loved Steel Pulse was his was the band. I was like, and, you know, obviously, some of those records are fucking amazing. Would there be music playing in your house usually or no? There was a lot of Beatles.

You have my parents, they like Beatles, but I don't remember my... Again, we didn't really have things, you know, early on. I think it wasn't until I was like 11 years old that somehow we had a record player. But I don't think anyone even knew that one of the speakers wasn't working. It was like, It was like that. The human foot is a true marvel of engineering. With 26 bones, 33 joints, and over 100 muscles and tendons, it's built for flexibility, balance, and natural movement.

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Because you just, in the group you felt home base. Solid, no matter what it was. We had such, my parents had such faith. And we in turn had that, that there was never a moment. That's beautiful. And I remember being aware that we were struggling financially. Yeah.

But I think some of that in some ways was a choice. I think there was this point, they just relinquished all materialistic items. Yeah, there were. And lived by faith and trusted in that. That's beautiful. Trusted that we were gonna get. That sounds great.

It's pretty magical, to be honest. It was, again, I don't know how, what it was to be a nine-year-old girl in that situation. Maybe my youngest sibling feels differently about it. But I think that, I mean, I know that we all felt safe. Yeah. And provided for. And I think, you know, there were those moments that defined you and, you know, giving our dog away, we had to because we were traveling across the states and we

couldn't feed him. And my dad, you know, during a parking lot of a grocery store, My dad literally was going in and trying to find somebody that would take this dog. And he did. He found somebody. He was a fucking genius with some stuff. My dad was very resourceful. Yeah, and he found this guy and then we watched the guy

come out with a big bag of dog food. We were sad that we were parting ways with the dog and then so happy that we knew that he found this new home. So there were those kind of experiences that I think shaped us. Whatever it was that we were going through, we went through it together. It's that simple, you know? And there's, yeah, I don't know what more you could ask for. That sounds great.

Tell me the different places you lived. So I was born in Puerto Rico. How long did you live in Puerto Rico? Probably a year or something. So no real memories in Puerto Rico? Probably a year or something. So no real memories of Puerto Rico? No. How did your parents end up in Puerto Rico? My parents lived in Puerto Rico.

They were with this group called the Children of God. And there was a... Like a commune? Yeah, it was a commune. You know... I think it started... It felt like it was a commune, a shared commune of ideas, ideals. And they had some friends that they met, I believe, in Texas, who were going there.

And so they said, you've got to come to this place. It's amazing. We're all there. And so they said, you've got to come to this place. It's amazing. We're all living together. And I honestly don't know the details of what sparked it for them. But I know that they both had a kind of a, I think what they would describe as a profound spiritual awakening

of just a shared belief of like, well, we don't want to raise our kids in this system. So they went to Puerto Rico. I always thought that everybody kind of lived in this place, in Puerto Rico. But I think that the main group was somewhere, I don't even know where. So what's the first place you remember? The first place I remember was Venezuela. How old were you in Venezuela?

I was probably two and a half years old at this time. I was the third born. My mom was pregnant with my sister Liberty, who was born in Caracas. And my first memory is being in a pool, my dad holding me, I was terrified of the iguanas that were going along the pool. How big were they? I mean, to me, they were fucking dinosaurs, right? They really do look like dinosaurs.

Yes, it's incredible. It's incredible. And so my dad basically was the caretaker for this elderly woman, and she allowed us to stay in this room that was off of her house. And as I recall, she was not a wealthy person, but I think she more took pity on my family. And my dad was like, if you let us stay here,

I'll do whatever I can. It was kind of that situation. So that wasn't a community based on the group that they followed? No, no. And they had been friends with a local priest in Venezuela. And I believe they went to him and they said, we have to get out of here.

We have no means, can you help us? And he had a friend that worked on a ship that was exporting Tonka toy trucks from Venezuela to the States and it was going to Florida. And it happened that my grandparents, my mother's parents lived in Florida. And we were stowaways. Somehow this person got us on this ship. Do you remember being on the ship?

I remember very clearly because this I remember clearly because these were these body boats. So I turned three years old on the boat. And I think I remember this because I turned three years old and okay, so first let me clarify. So when I say stowaways, we couldn't have been like really proper stowaways because people knew that we were there and they knew it was my birthday and they baked me a cake.

But I think they just, I think they just, we were there free. It was like somehow. They were being cool. They were being cool. They were being cool. Because I don't think it wasn't a passenger ship. No. Right?

You have your birthday on the boat. My birthday on the boat, they bring out a cake. Again, we were living very simply. How many of you were at this time? Just four of us. At this point? So there's four of us. At this point, my sister's been born. My sister Liberty's been born, and my mom was pregnant with my sister Summer.

And that's everybody. Yes, there's four of us. Summer would be the last one, right? So everybody was there except Summer wasn't yet born. Summer wasn't yet born. Okay. They baked me a cake, a birthday cake, and they gave me some Tonka toy trucks.

Never had toys. Never, don't remember any kind of cake, anything like that. So that was monumental feeling of a real sense of safety and love and care from strangers. But then the other event, and I've talked about this a great deal, so we're not boring you, but...

I don't know any of this, tell me everything. Okay. I love this story. What a cool life. It's worthwhile. It's awesome. Yeah, and so with this love and support from these strangers, which obviously meant a lot,

I think it's something that I think that I was aware of how much we relied on people. You just kind of sense that. But then I remember they were catching fish on this boat. And I imagine it was for themselves. Imagine it was obviously wasn't a fishing vessel, right? It was probably just like for this journey, but they were catching fish in a net. So it was like, you know, what seemed to me,

I remember vast amounts, maybe it was 20, I don't know. But they do it on the side of the ship, the platform. We were there, this is outside, and the fish are flapping around, and they would throw them against the side of the boat to stun them. And I think as children, this was so shocking to us, to see how vibrant and full of life and how desperate,

you know, that's, I think quite captures that desperation as like wanting oxygen and like what the body does almost without control, but is beyond a choice. So that desperate, flailing movement is so shocking. And I remember we were all, the kids collectively were just floored by this and we were crying and we were screaming and we wanted it to stop.

And it's very hard for me to believe, but my mother says that I said, and I remember one of us saying, why didn't you tell us what this was? That this was meat. When we ate fish, you don't know, and you just eat fish, you don't understand that it wants to do this thing.

Now my mom says that I said that. I was three years old, but having a child that was just three years old. They're smart. And very aware, and things come out and I was okay, maybe I did. But I know that all of my siblings, we all had that same feeling, that same realization.

And from that moment we said, we're never eating meat again. Like we're not eating anything. And has that been the case? And that has been the case. Wow. And my parents, to their credit, honored that wish. This was the kid's decision, not your parents' decision.

That's right, I mean, I think that years before, my parents had experimented with vegetarianism, and then they probably, you know, to be honest, there was a point where I think we were living however we could, but there was a decision. So I don't think it was a completely foreign concept to them, but I think it probably was, I imagine that it was difficult

because they're just going like, I think they're going like, do you know what it takes just to fucking feed six of us with another one on the way? We're just trying to figure this out however we can. And now we got these restrictions put on us, I imagine. But I never felt that. So then from there, we arrived in Miami.

And I remember seeing my grandparents from the boat, and we were looking down at the dock and seeing them being pointed out and them waving. That's your mom's parents. That's my mom's parents. And then shortly thereafter, my brother River, who I think you must have met, right? For sure.

Yeah. I don't know where this idea came from. Certainly wasn't popular at the time, but he just felt like, how could we be, why are we taking anything from an animal? That just led to our veganism. So my sister Summer was born vegan in 1977.

We've been vegan ever since. So that's why I remember that. It was a really instrumental part of our life and probably a story that was, we experienced and then we talked about them a whole lot. So it was like one of those memories that was like that, that period, it was a, it was a big transitional period for the family. How was Florida different than Venezuela? I don't know that.

For you? Yeah, well, what I remember is there was a... I almost remembered his name. Afonso Sainz or something like that, who I think might have been somehow involved in the music industry, maybe a record producer, I don't know, for some reason. I don't know for some reason. I don't know how this happened. I don't know where, I don't know why we ended up

in Winter Park, which is outside of Orlando. I don't know how we got there, because I don't think my grandparents didn't live there. I think they lived in West Palm Beach. But again, my dad was the groundskeeper for this guy. I don't know how- So your dad got a job, that makes sense. Yeah, my dad was the groundskeeper for this guy. I don't know how. So your dad got a job, that makes sense. Yeah, my dad got a job.

And that's why you moved. And we lived on the property. Makes sense. I remember it being good. How long did you live in Florida? So I got there, somewhere I was born. I was probably, you know, I was probably three and a half, almost four, maybe I turned four, and then, let's see,

I don't really know, I guess. Years? Well, maybe a couple years or something. Couple years. Then we probably came out to California. And then what? In California. And how did that happen?

I don't know, part of it is, all right, well the thing that I, I think maybe that I left out when I was born, Keats, you know, started playing guitar. So it was probably Venezuela. Rain and River started performing together. And they would go, my dad, I think part of like the missionary work would be to go into like jails and they would like perform my dad, I think part of the missionary work would be to go into jails and they would perform for inmates, right? And then they kind of got better and they had this-

But this was doing the missionary work for the group, but then you leave the group, but they continued performing? No, because I think when they left the group, that's when we got on the boat. I think part of what it was with the group was like, your job is to go pass out pamphlets and get people to join. I think for my parents, it was like spreading the word. Yeah.

Missionary work. Something they believed in. Absolutely. And it was connected to the group, but how much they lived with the group or our lives, I don't have a lot of memories of the group, memories of the family. I don't think my siblings without performing

was necessarily connected to the group. I don't think it was a requirement of the thing. I think it was something that my dad and them did because they believed. They believed in like. If you believe in something, you wanna spread the word. Something good. I think so.

And so I guess at some point, I don't know where this came from, of my parents suggested, I don't know if somebody else suggested it, but they performed in talent shows. Do you remember seeing them perform? I don't, I have memories, but I think it's from newspaper clippings

that I saw when I was older or something. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm not sure but I think it's from newspaper clippings that I saw when I was older or something, you know, I'm not sure. I think that I was young, I do know that there's a point where I wanted to be part of it. You want to join the group. Yeah, but that really didn't happen until later. So they would play and I think they got a lot of notice and you know, one of those things. I think it was probably, I find undeniable that

at that young age, they both had something, right? And it is, whatever the fuck that is. Yeah. Well, whatever that means, right? I think, yeah, I have a memory of my brother being quite young and just owning the guitar. Wow. And you know, playing a lead kind of way.

Just like a kid who had a guitar that was bigger than him and he fucking owned it. And so I think it was that kind of thing where you're like, well, that person, they have found an instrument for expression that is just whatever it is. That was his thing. And so I think my parents recognized that. So my mom had gone to school maybe with Penny Marshall. At the time, of course, was in a really successful show, Laverne and Shirley, right? She wrote her a letter.

Would you meet my kids? They seemed to have something in this desire, and they're doing this thing. The story is that you know Penny wrote back and was like congratulations don't come out to LA. I'm sure that yeah I can only imagine like now if I got a letter like that from somebody like a new one I was a kid my kids really want to do something can we come out to LA where you meet them?

You'd be like, I, you know. What would I do? What am I gonna do? What could I even do, yeah. You know, you know my parents, we went to LA anyways. ["The New York Times"] L-M-N-T. Element electrolytes. Have you ever felt dehydrated after an intense workout or a long day in the sun? Do you want to maximize your endurance and feel your best?

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Minerals are the stuff of life. So visit drinklmnt.com slash tetra and stay salty with element electrolyte lmnt so your family moved to la chasing a dream yeah great yeah or either chasing a dream or being Great. Yeah, or either chasing a dream or being pulled by something. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, they were right. Right? Like what? Yeah, it worked. There was nothing, nothing was nothing was forced. We were fucking living by faith. We had nothing. We had no means. And, and it worked. And faith came through. I did. So I guess maybe chasing a dream, but part of it also feels like... I didn't mean it in a negative way. No, I know you did. I'm having my own conversation with myself about it and have throughout my life.

Because in some ways it's insane and reckless. It's a wild story. Yeah. I wouldn't use the word reckless because it's not like they were protecting anything before. It's like maybe they were taking a chance, but I wouldn't use the word reckless. No, you're right. I mean, yeah, I guess it's really incredible

the faith they had and this belief because having kids down myself, the amount of work that I do to try to guarantee that things are gonna be smooth with all the means that I have. It's probably goes like, you are putting yourself into another situation which you did not know the outcome and now you have even more kids, right?

You have a brand new baby and we're just getting in the car, driving in a car that shouldn't take local roads, and you're on the 10 going west, you know? So you guys drove across the country. We drove across the country. Wow, any memory of that, being in the car? Yeah, that was where we gave away the dog. The very strong memory is the,

there was this old station wagon, you know, that used to have that one window rolled up in the back. That window was broken, right? So open all the time. Open all the time. Yeah. And at some point, it got cold. Yeah.

Would you guys sleep in the car? We'd sleep in the car. Wow. And I never questioned this story growing up, and I was an adult, I'm questioning how my father came to this conclusion. But it was cold, and the only solution, I think, available to him, I have to imagine available,

and all he could think of was to take pampers, diapers, and to stick them together to cover up the back window. But I just, I go like, didn't we, wasn't there a tarp, wasn't there duct tape? How well can a diaper stick? It has to come undone. So I search a vivid memory so I know that it happened. Yeah.

But it seems- Makes no sense. Right. It's like, but I have to believe that it must have been the middle of the fucking night and suddenly the weather dropped and there's no, you know, there's no version of like, we can stop again. And all we have are some diapers. Maybe there's a trash bag and some diapers together.

You know, in my mind, it's diapers. Maybe there was something else as well. Maybe the window could only go up, you know, halfway or three quarters away and the rest was done with diapers. I don't know. It's funny how those stories that you tell them, you go, I should be clarified. I should, for myself, that you never really wonder about,

like just part of your life. But there were those kind of moments, again, my dad always being really ingenious with surviving, right, just making it work. The power of faith is unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah, completely. And my parents had that. I mean, they... Would you say you have it? I don't know that I do. Yeah. Ever have it?

Yes, and I think that I, in some ways, I do... I don't have it the way that they did. I don't think that I could, I don't think I could, I mean my parents, there's a picture of them with four kids hitchhiking, literally hitchhiking. I don't think I could do that. You also don't know, because you never had to have that. That's the other thing, it's like they rose to the occasion and it sounds like

In a pretty positive way like it wasn't bad vibes in your house. It wasn't like Pity and crying all the time. It was like no, this is no no problem. I mean, I I think that I've always felt purpose yeah connected to something I mean, I think that I've always felt purpose connected to something. Maybe I'm just not as comfortable with that language or maybe it feels like wanting a more, I don't know, a different understanding of it. But I think there, I do have a feeling of knowing

a certain comfort in it knowing that the things are moving in a direction and I'm a part of it and I'm okay with that. And that was your role in the family too. So what you're describing, that also makes sense. Yeah, I mean, I think that my personality is such, my nature is such, I was very comfortable being the third born and not having any real responsibility. I think that's how I expected my life to go.

And I was good with it. I knew that I was going to be an actor from being young at a point when I had already acted and moved away from it. But I didn't think that it would be of value to the family in any way that I thought that it would strictly just be for my own benefit. And my brother was very much, I'd say, the driving force of the family in some ways. My dad at this point when he got older, he'd been so hobbled from his life.

Literally just back broken and legs and just from car accidents from a very young age. So physically, he was somebody that was in pain. My whole life, my dad was in pain and He dealt with it in a way that His life experience happened to deal with it. Just Usually to to numb it with alcohol, right? It's really it's the only way that I think he could cope with it

He didn't but I'm with them is not too dramatic and I don't know that it was that dramatic But I think it's something I would say now. I don't think that he would have said that. I don't know other people would have. I don't know. But I would say that. He was drinking the self-medicate because for sure he was in pain. And who knows what a man's expectations of themselves may be and where he got to. And maybe there was a point where he took the family as far as he could take it, his ingenuity. I imagine it's like the dream that your child

is gonna take over in some ways, and also probably very difficult to face your mortality, unless you're preparing yourself for that or you're comfortable doing that. I don't know that my impression of my father at some point was somebody that was hurt. Yeah. And I don't know what level of hurt that is.

I don't know how much of it was physical, how much of it was spiritual or emotional. Obviously somebody who definitely had many unresolved things within his own family and life experience. So my brother, I think, was the kind of driving force of the family and certainly was the, you know, probably the singular force that took us out of relying on the kind gestures of others to where, you know, we suddenly, we bought a house. And so I was very comfortable with that. I think when

my brother died, I think I just turned 18. And I imagine, I mean, I know that I felt a certain push to take on some responsibilities for the family in some ways. I can't remember what led me to this. I feel like you asked me, I don't know if it prompted this, but I don't know how it came to that. Yeah. I guess, I guess faith,

when you were talking about faith, I had faith. I think at some point, maybe that was shook a little bit. Yeah. And maybe I felt like, grab these motherfucking reins and, Wow. You know, do something.

Yeah, I don't, to get back to one of your earlier questions, I don't know if I was, I don't know if I was leading that, or if I was being pulled. I understood. I don't know, you was leading that or if I was being pulled. I don't know what that was. Did you feel it as a sense of responsibility? What would be the word for the feeling?

Part of it, honestly, part of me wants to say that, but then I think like, prior to my brother's death he was like listen you're you're gonna start acting again okay you're in you're gonna be really good you're gonna do it you're gonna go for it you're gonna fucking do it maybe more of an actor than I am and so he was like listen I'm doing this movie you're auditioning for the brother in it. And kind of got me back into, this is after I lived in Costa Rica for a few years,

I'd stepped away from acting, because I acted as a kid. And I came back, I started actively going to New York and auditioning and auditioning to play his part. I think that probably just because he was like, as my brother and I want to play my brother, I still auditioned for it and we were going to do this part. I think that probably just because he was like, as my brother and I want to play my brother, I saw audition for it and we were going to do this movie. So I think in some ways it was already moving in that direction. And then this seismic event happened in my life, which then was like, you know, now what? Yeah. So it's really interesting looking back on it.

You know, it's hard for me to know which, what thing was coming first. You said that you knew you wanted to be an actor from young. You never wanted to do anything else. No, no. No, but I started acting so young. I mean, again, before acting, you know, we were sitting on the streets and I definitely

felt probably alive. And I think in some ways, if you were going to psychoanalyze the family dynamics and, you know, being the third born, there was a certain, even though there was faith in the family, there was a time of chaos. I mean, the fucking nature. I don't know how you have five kids and a dog and not have the means. And I seem to remember going out and singing these songs

and dancing on the streets and just feeling like fucking like you know invincible yeah it's like did it have to do with the reaction or not necessarily i'm sure because i wasn't going to get the same thing just being with my dad right doing the songs in front of him yeah but you know it's that unique thing that happens in a situation where you're performing in front of a crowd. It's who's giving who the energy, who starts it. At some point it becomes this reciprocal experience. So I think that was the first kind of feeling.

And then we, River started acting and me and my sister guest starred in a show that he did. And what did it feel like? I don't know how to articulate it, just felt. I think it was like both, you know, totally powerful and totally vulnerable, simultaneously. You know, it's like.

You're out there. Yeah, and it was just fucking fun. I was eight years old, and it was cool running around on a set. Everyone is so cool. You know, you're eight years old. I mean, like, the grips are the coolest motherfuckers there. You got dudes rolling around in belts, and they got all this gear on. You know what I mean? And it's a weird little circus. It's a cool life. coolest motherfuckers there. You got dudes rolling on belts and they got all this gear on, you know what I mean?

And it's a weird little circus. It's a cool life. It's interesting and I would say in their own way every single person on the set is creative. They are all doing something and so there is a very powerful energy on a set, even on like a mediocre TV show. It's still really amazing, like the forces that come together. It's a group effort for sure. It is, and when you're a kid, you're real sensitive to that shit.

You really feel like, well, hold on, there's something happening here that is like fucking buzzing. You know, like I remember, you walk on, you smell the lights, it all still smells the same, and the sound of the trucks under there and moving in the honey wagons, and it's such a eclectic group of people

that normally their lives might not intersect. Right? And yet here they are in this kind of like unified effort. So there's something just very attractive and fun about it. I think as a kid was part of it. You've gotten to work with probably the greatest living directors. How different is it from director to director?

Are their styles different? Are they similar? Sure, I mean, of course, the styles are different. But at some point, there's one connective tissue, which is just like a powerful perceptive quality that allows them to seek out truth in a moment. Right. And you know there are times where you're filming a scene and you go, that's alright. And 90% of the directors are like, good.

Sometimes they're like, wow. And the other 10%, those special ones. Yeah. You know, if you ever do something where you think, okay, and you actually are like, wow. And the other 10%, those special ones, if you ever do something where you think, okay, and you actually feel okay, and somebody's like, eh. It's just heartbreaking and crushing and also so exciting. And you're just like, thank you, thank you.

And yeah, what can that be, particularly just, if you start off from a place of like, okay, okay, well, here's something. And then you have a partner saying, no, not really. Welcome to the house of macadamias. Macadamias are a delicious superfood, sustainably sourced directly from farmers. Macadamias, a rare source of omega-7,

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Very rarely. Very rarely. I'm always struggling with this feeling of, yes, there's something for me to do. I'm being guided by something and just crushing insecurity and fear. It's just so stupid. But part of me is like,

what it would take for me to say like, I want another one. Because then it'd be like, whoa, okay, whoa, what are you gonna do? Whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you gonna do? So I'm always- It's setting yourself up for asking for another one. A little bit.

That's interesting. Yeah, I think that when we get to the last take, we are locked in usually, I mean the filmmaker of like what we're after. It's more earlier on as we're talking about things where it's like, and sometimes all I can do is just say, there's something missing. Do you ever change the lines? Oh yeah I mean of course I mean something you know the best is when you go wow I just made up some great shit and you're like and you look at the script and you did exactly what was that. That's the best feeling. Does the person you're playing against impact your performance?

Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. Because you're reacting to them. Yeah, for every reason that's, there's so many different reasons. Of course, two actors trying to do the exact same thing, you're still going to have a different reaction to just who that person is. And sometimes you're looking at a piece of tape

next to the camera and you're talking to that and you can't even see the other actor. Can you play any character or do you need to feel a connection to that character to do it? I don't think that I could play any kind of character. And I think there's some that you're just more right for. I do think you got to be cast. Maybe there are some actors that can do anything.

I don't trust them. You have to believe your character. You have to agree with their position. No. No. No. You just have to know that they do. Yeah, at some point, yes, you have to believe it in that moment.

But I guess it's always the trick to try to go from observing from a distance to experiencing and presenting as if it's your own. Because if you remain at a distance, if you're laughing at the character, or you're going like, I don't, that's not how I feel, but... Then it will be good. I don't think so.

And I think you can sense that sometimes in performances. And I'm sure, I've done it. I think the hope is that you are as connected as possible. Could you ever imagine not doing it? Yes. I don't know, maybe not. Yes. I don't know. Maybe not. Uh-uh. I've been working a lot the last few years,

and I think subconsciously having a kid probably has a lot to do with that, although I didn't feel like I was making those decisions in the moment, but I knew what I was sacrificing, what I was moving away from in order to do them, and I felt a need to do it. And part of me has been really struggling with several things recently that I think, you know, I never regret anything just because they have the life where I'm sitting in right now,

it's hard to ever regret anything. But I don't wanna make too much of a thing of what I do, but I feel like in some ways, I'd always had a reverence for the kind of like the purest possible form of this entertainment thing that I do. And I always steered clear of being motivated by money or prestige or anything.

And it really was pure, not because I'm fucking virtuous or anything, but just, I don't know why. It ended up that way. I was fortunate and I benefited from, because I had no choice. It was instinct, I can't take credit for it. So it was like. No, but you had good instincts to do what you felt

was worth doing and you weren't corrupted by any other forces. Yeah. And I think I knew what it took. And so it mattered so much. And then I think in some ways I've been in this place of like, well, maybe I would like to try this. And that might be interesting.

You know, making a choice from a different place versus I think traditionally it always been her historically been, oh, I must do this versus like, oh, that might be interesting. I wonder if I could manage to get this to work. And so I think I ended up in this situation recently with a few different projects where I wasn't completely in it and I had to be in it and I was away from my family and kids and in a way that has made me now drawing like,

well, I'm not leaving unless I have to do it. Tell me about the documentary where you sort of played yourself. Oh, right. I'm still here. I finished Walk the Line. Yeah. Then I did... Tell me about that a little bit first.

Like, how did you prepare for that? Right. So, strangely enough, before I was even doing that, my friend James Gray, who's the director, was doing it like a documentary, shooting some footage on John and June. Glad he had to come out, and for some reason, James called me one day and said, do you want to meet Johnny Cash?

I said, sure. He said, well, he's in town staying at relatives' house or a friend or something, and they want to come by. So I went over to have dinner with James, and Johnny, and June, and his friend or family member. I remembered that he was very shaky, and he told me how much he liked Gladiator,

and the impression was that he seemed to really like my character. Versus the character that most people liked, which was Russell Crowe's character, who they wanted to emulate. He seemed to really appreciate my character. And we were having dinner and he seemed almost shy in some ways. He was? Yeah, he's just a big, strong guy, right? But he seemed shy and he was frail, he was shaky.

He was really shaky. And he said, we finished dinner and he said, should I play you some songs? I was like, no, you don't have to. I felt like he felt like, I thought that maybe he felt like he had to do that. But I don't think he did feel that way. I think that it's something that he really loved

and really loved doing it with June. And we went into this other room, we're sitting there and he's quite shaky, and I thought, I was so uncomfortable for him, and I was like, this is just so painful. And then he picked up the guitar, and like literally, his body was perfect. Like literally, the shaking stopped,

and he's just strumming. And then, and he's kind of looking down, and then June comes over, sits down, he's just strumming. And then, and he's kinda looking down, and then June comes over, sits down, he's just strumming, and he just looks up at her. And it was like one of those fucking moments that you just, you can't deny. There was an incredibly powerful energy in the room. Something came in there and changed everybody in that moment. And he looked at her, and they started singing

on the banks of the River Jordan. Is that the song? It's like a beautiful spiritual... And it was jaw-dropping. The impact of that, and again, his so rich in feeling and history and his own creativity, his purpose, and to his so rich in feeling and history and his own creativity, his purpose,

and his shared creativity with June was just fucking unbelievable. And I remember just being shocked by that. I'd never witnessed anything like that. And it was a really powerful moment. At the time, I did not know that I would be playing him or there was even going to be a movie about him. And I don't think it was that long after.

I mean, I think it was maybe a year later or something that James Mangold, the writer-director, just sent me the script called Cash at the time. And I think it was just, like, offered to me, right? Had you ever played an actual person before? I mean, you know, Gladiators, you know, based on actual person, but no one that- No one you met.

No, no one that, you know, anybody could verify whether what you were doing not felt accurate. Yeah, did you have any question about doing it? I think that I had this feeling of like, okay, that's it, like, of a knowing of that's what the next thing was. Wow. Like, just knowing it,

but of course, see, there's two different sides to yourself. There's the human part of you that's terrified, I'm gonna be humiliated, I'm gonna ruin somebody's thing, this is their life, who am I to fucking do this? All of that. It seems intimidating. Very.

I like that you felt the feeling right from the beginning, this is the thing, this is what. Not like this is gonna be great, the weather had feeling. No, no, no. But your instinct was you were gonna find a way in to do it. I just knew that that's what I was doing. Yeah. I just knew that it was happening. Yeah.

And it wasn't, again, it had nothing to do with like, it's going to work. No. It just was like, this was the next evolutionary step for me. It was like, here is your next opportunity. And you're either going to keep going until these things stop and then thank you. Yeah. I had a bunch of cool experiences. And you're either gonna keep going until these things stop and then thank you. I had a bunch of cool experiences, thank you. And you're done.

Or it keeps going. I don't know, I just know that this is that opportunity. Thank you so much. Now I'm fucked. What am I gonna do? The first things I did was work with T-Bone. I flew out to LA. He's great.

Got a guitar, never played a guitar, and got some lessons, started learning, learned E to A. Got B7, thought I was the fucking shit. So I was like, look out. And so it started strumming. I just, I listened to a bunch of recordings that I had of John and just talking and, how did, a couple vocal lessons.

Was it obvious that you were gonna sing as opposed to lip sync? Well, not to me. Yeah. But, you. But James Mangold felt pretty certain of it. And this was probably like 2004 or 2005. And so Pro Tools was in full effect by then, right? So there was, I think, probably the possibility of blending stems and note correction and, you know, enough tools, I think, where that became more possible than probably it would have been 10 years ago, right?

At least where you would go, we don't even know if this guy can do it, but we're going to do it anyways because worse comes to worse, we'll figure it out. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I think everybody was moving forward of just like this kind of like, let's go and see where it takes us. And yeah, we just went. OK, the documentary. Yeah. I think there's just a point in my life, like it's all this work.

And I think in some ways, I'd kind of like hit that first benchmark in some ways. I think walk the line was kind of like a thing. And then it seemed maybe the opportunities beyond that was coming in. I'm like, well, now that you've really made it, here's what you got. And that was disappointing to me because I felt like to make it meant like then they're like

now we're going to offer you these shitty movies for a lot of money. That was kind of like the next step up. I think I was so shocked by that because I think I had this fantasy of like, yeah, it just means that the quality is going to improve and it wasn't the quality, it's just the quantity improved, right? Of like what came your way? And then it became even more difficult to make choices. In some ways, I antiquated notion of rebellion,

kicked in of like, I'll just do a smaller movie, fuck you, I'm going to do a smaller movie. That's also like its own ego trip in some ways. So I think I felt like a little bit like, oh, what am I moving towards? What is, I don't know. It was the first time that I think I was feeling unsure and a little bit like,

this image of this movie, District Nine, I don't know if you ever saw it, it's like the South African like alien movie, but it's just one point where there's aliens on earth. It's kind of like, oh my God, the aliens have come. But they're like, it's not like aliens we've ever seen in any other movies. It's just like ones like just sitting just pissing like right like out in the open, right? And I kind of I think was like thinking of myself as like, you know, it's that weird thing where you become self-aware in a new way

and you reject that idea, yet you also realize that you've had a hand in creating that idea and that persona. And so it's like this thing where you're like, am I a part of creating this thing, or was it created for me? Am I just, what the fuck is happening? I don't, I'm not feeling good about this.

This isn't where things have been leading me. And you work hard for a long time to get to that place to then feel like, is this it? Right. Yeah, and it's, I'm not gonna grow at all doing any of these options. Yeah, and it's, I'm not gonna grow at all doing any of these options. Yeah. And if I'm not.

Is that usually the thing, like, is it looking for growth, looking for something new, looking for... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel like your work is therapeutic for you at all? Of course.

Yeah, I mean, yeah. And it's also just fun, you fun, it's everything, right? There are points where it feels more vital, there's times in your life where you're like, this is a fucking turning point. Either I, restrictions are put on me, I create my own restrictions, or liberations, or whatever it may be to go to that next experience.

And I don't know what it's gonna require, but something has to give in some way here. You know I think part of it was Casey who directed, Casey Affleck who directed the movie would joke about you know we're gonna retire kind of thing you know of course I'm like 32 years old and I can retire right. Ridiculous. But in that joke was also this threat to yourself. I think in looking at it now going, I'm going like, I'm gonna put myself out of my misery and put the world out of my misery

if something doesn't change because what's the point? And maybe that's just a story we tell ourselves to change. Maybe we do grow from it, maybe we don't, I don't know. But that's the story you're telling yourself. Like I'm not moving. And if I don't fucking move, then fuck it. I'm not sure what stage these things came in, these ideas. But I remember thinking a lot about like being so jealous

that, you know, Seinfeld, Ellen, all of these people, as these TV shows, they play some version of themselves. And like why they could do it as a sitcom. I was like, what if you did it, but you made it like it wasn't a joke, like you made it like serious. And they're just like, I don't know, what's tantalizing about that idea.

I was like, it excited me. It's really exciting. And I thought it was dangerous, right? It is. And then I, with my friend, I did a fake interview where I was being interviewed saying that I, you know, I told my agent, I fired my agent, and there's something about just saying that, like doing this fake interview, that I was, it's just like super exciting. Yeah. But I made like, I made the mistake of like sometimes in a new idea in the liberation, you fall in

love with idea and yourself a little bit, and you become cute. And somehow, there was some part of me that was still there that was like, you can't do this, you're not you're not good enough to do this and you need some outside support. And I remember telling Casey about it, you know, always one of the smartest guys I know, just one of those people that just understands

every genre of film and, you know, she's my friend and seemed like a fun thing to do. And I don't think, at that point I don't know that it was like this is gonna be feature length or what it's gonna be. Just the concept. Concept, yeah. It excited me and I told him about it

and I think that he was not convinced and I think he saw that there wasn't enough there. Luckily I wasn't thinking that I just had this belief in this feeling, right? And he reluctantly would come over to my house and do some interviews and film. And I knew he just always was a little bit disappointed and felt like it wasn't something there.

But one night, he'd invited Gus Van Sant over under the pretense of listening to some songs, some rap songs that I had done. And Gus came over and I think what happened, I think this was what was genius, whether Casey was aware of it or not, in getting Gus to come over, Gus was somebody I had a long history with, he directed my brother in films.

He directed me in the film where I started acting again as an adult, I'm 19 years old. There was a lot of history there. And suddenly when I'm to play him these songs, I'm genuinely scared and embarrassed. Like, is Gus gonna think I'm fucking crazy? Like, these were my, my feelings were emerging. And so it suddenly, successfully took this

outlandish crazy idea and then rooted it in like real feeling and like in my own insecurity and fear. And we played these songs and then in that fear, I then had to answer him as if I had a belief in this that I was doing, and these songs were fucking ridiculous. I'm playing him. He's very poorly written rap songs. But I have to say to him, yeah, this is what I'm doing.

I'm quitting acting to do this with sincerity. And that was more- Were you able to do it? Well, I think there were brief moments. I see. And there were enough moments where Casey was like, okay, there's something here. Yeah.

And I think part of it is just in seeing me struggle to keep a straight face, to convince myself that this thing that I'm doing was worth doing when I knew that it wasn't. And I think that's what the character of Joaquin would be experiencing, right? Where the character Joaquin is going, hey, look, this thing that I've done, I've built, I've created this thing, I don't want this anymore. I'm doing this other thing. Am I doing this?

Is this, is there anything here? And there was enough to constantly be on that edge. And really, what we found was, and the reason why we kept it a secret and really presented it as a legit documentary was really just because any time that I would do a scene with somebody that knew that it wasn't real, one of our friends or something,

for the first four months, six months that we filmed, I would just turn it into a joke because I was too embarrassed to actually commit to it. And at some point, I think really through cases and encouragement, it was like, I'm not telling people. You're not telling them that. That's what makes it so great. That's the magic of it.

Yeah, absolutely. For sure. And it's what made. Otherwise it would be Spinal Tap, which it's not. That's right. It's some new thing, but also rooted in maybe Andy Kaufman, who would do kind of performance art. Yeah, I wasn't familiar with Andy.

You wouldn't know where the line was. Yeah, I mean years later when I learned about Andy, yes, I think there were some similarities, but maybe, I don't know, I don't know enough. I also like pro wrestling for the same reason. Like you don't know, I don't know enough. I also like pro wrestling for the same reason. You don't know. You're told it's fake, but there are guys killing each other. And sometimes they really hate each other.

But you don't know. No, I mean, there were times where it was fun. I mean, mostly I remember it being uncomfortable. And I don't like lying to people. I just don't. And there was a moment when it got outside of our little world that we created, and we went public.

And I had never invited attention into my life in an active way. I'd been a part of publicity for the movie, your public situation. But this was, I put myself out there as myself Doing some outlandish shit around people that I genuinely admire And that all I want is for them to think like I'm a decent person And that was so difficult and it was really important. It was really important to go like, yeah, so people hate you.

And like, okay, how do I live with that? And it taught me a lot about acting. It was really my first experience where I was doing something. It was probably as close to live as I might ever get, right? Because there were some things. I mean, I did a show in Vegas. I did a show in Miami. We did the show in Miami, and we've set up this guy to heckle me that I should fight with. And it's one of Casey's friend. I just meet him for a second before we go out there. He's like, here's a dude so you know

he's gonna be stage right. And he's the thing, and so I get up on fucking stage, you know, it's like a club, but it's fucking huge to me. And I start doing the song, I cannot remember the words. I don't know what is happening, and I'm looking out, I cannot remember the words. I don't know what is happening. And I'm looking at, I go, where is this dude? It's all dark, you know, it's dark, the lights are flashing.

And I just know that there's people. And at this point, it had been public enough to where people are actively, openly mocking me. They're wearing disguises like me. I think even- And people dressed as you? Yeah. That's amazing. It was like a fake beard.

Sunglasses. Yeah. And I was like, I'm private, I'm insecure, I'm scared. I would rather not be thought of. Yeah. And it was shocking to put out there. And then I just knew the time in the song when I was supposed to be heckled, but I couldn't fucking hear shit. So I just start

talking back, you know, start talking to this crowd, screaming at this person. I can't even see them. And then I just fucking decide I'm gonna fucking jump into audience. And as I'm like running, jumping off the stage, I see the guy, luckily, because he was, he was just staged right where he's supposed to be. And I jumped in the crowd and fucking grabbing him and we are pulled apart and fucking the bouncers are there and they yank us up. They pull me in and I was so fucking jacked up

just with the adrenaline that I just started vomiting. As they let me, they lead me into this bathroom and I really was, I was sick. And it was like, well this is just about the coolest experience I've ever had in my life. Like that's, that's it. That's next level. Like that's next level.

Like that is, that is a feeling, you know. I mean it's that extreme version, right? Because you want to have, yeah, that's pro wrestling, you want to have that extreme feeling. I've had powerful feelings in a more subtle, different way. And I'll never have that again, I don't think, because it was an idea, it was a time, it was just when kind of online entertainment was accessible and there was like a need for content. I think if it happened five years before, it wouldn't have made much noise.

It just was like, it was the first time that in that period where things were going as viral as they could. You know, it's where it goes viral for you. The whole world isn't aware of it, but there's enough where it can spin around in its own circle. And so at some point we're like, again, created this thing, had this idea,

and then we're being pulled by the gravitation of it. And we've quickly, I certainly quickly became a passenger, in this thing. And I think it's, in some ways, it is a, it's something that I have repeated in some form, from the beginning of my life, there is that, you asked me a question earlier, that are you driving, are you being pulled and I think that's you started by driving but then very

quickly got swept up in this thing. And that has been there's been the goal ever since that movie really taught me the value of that. Tetragrammaton is a podcast. Tetragrammaton is a website. Tetragrammaton is a whole world of knowledge. What may fall within the sphere of tetragrammaton? Counterculture? Tetragrammaton. Sacred geometry? Tetragrammaton. The avant-garde? Tetragrammaton. Generative art? Tetragrammaton. Sacred geometry? Tetragrammaton.

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to go on so long. We didn't know when we started, what it was gonna do. It just so happened that like, it took me a few months before I really gave myself into it. Or I should have really found the character, like what he, I was going to be, right? And then, so it happened that I had a film coming out, I had to promote it.

And I didn't know what to do because at this point, it had been public that I was retiring, that I was doing a record, that I was going to get my record produced. And so I couldn't break character. It's amazing. That wasn't a pre-planned thing, but it turned into a great character. It's amazing. And so I said... That wasn't a pre-planned thing, but it turned into a great opportunity.

Exactly. And, you know, Casey was like, go on Letterman, you're going to have to do it because what choice do we have? And I was like, right. And so I go and I'm first doing a junket for a film. And to be honest, it's one of James' films, Two Lovers is called, and it was a small film, and I love James, I've worked with him forever,

and I couldn't talk about this film in a real way, in a quote unquote normal way, because I was maintaining- It seems like almost it might have been better. Like it feels like- I don't know if it was better for James's film. But whatever you did created enough interest where you wanna know what this person is doing, for sure.

I don't know, but it was something where again, suddenly I'm a passenger here. And so, you know, you do a pre-interview with the producer of Letterman's show and I maintained character, right? In the pre-interview with the producer of Letterman's show, and I maintained character, right? In the pre-interview as well. In the pre-interview. Always. Yeah, and I said, this is what I'm doing.

See, yeah, I'm putting this record, I can't remember what it was. And I hung up and I was like, I just, I admire Dave too much. Like, that guy was like the guy for me. I just, I have way too much respect. And I think it'd be foolish to think that I couldn't pull the wool,

because I don't think I could, maybe the body also was like, I'll never convince him. But more than I said, Kase, I know that we have this fucking agreement to never let anybody know, I have to let him know. I just think I'm not gonna do it to him. So I called the producer back and I said, hey listen, this is a project we're doing,

no this is real. But I hope it's okay, I'm not trying to make you guys look stupid. I want Dave to lacerate me. I said, just you can do what everyone, please, because I didn't want them to think like I was coming out to try to make them look stupid, right? Because there were enough people that were saying,

is this real? Is he trying to take the piss out of us? And they said, well, I'm not telling Dave because it's a legal thing. If I did something outlandish and somebody got hurt, they couldn't say they knew it. I see. There's no way they didn't tell him something, right? Because if he ever found out... Did you ever talk to him about it after? No, no, just without no... So I on the show, and I didn't know what,

I didn't know what I was gonna do, I didn't know what was gonna happen. It was one of the most difficult things I've ever done in my life, because I think there were like a couple moments where I probably, again, this is where my experience and the character's experience line up, which is, I don't think I wanna do this anymore.

I think I might have made a mistake, and I don't think I wanna do this. And that's what the character would be experiencing at the time. And so the project that I'd created, that I was doing, the character had created this project they were doing, and we both are going, I think we might have taken this too far.

Yeah. And so it had a real energy to it there. It wasn't me sitting back going like, ha ha ha, fuck all these people, I'm doing this thing, right? And it wasn't. No, it was palpable. Yeah, it was like.

It's so funny. Yeah, yeah, cause it's just, it was palpable. Yeah, it was like... It's so funny. Yeah, yeah, because it's just, it's so uncomfortable. So uncomfortable. It's unbelievable. And that's, you know, that's... And the chewing, the gum. And that all was, none of that was planned. No, no, and it wasn't.

It was so funny. It's like, when I look back and I go like, yeah, yeah, what did you do to go out and chew and go? I didn't even... I just, I figured... But the fact that he called you out for chewing gum is so funny. And then your reaction was incredible. And he was just on fire.

He was really funny. Oh my God. He was funny. Yeah, I mean, it was like, it's a very weird mixture of emotion because I was thinking like, we're fucking dead. Like, we're cutting on Leatherman

and he's fucking lacerating me. We've been dreaming about public humiliation for the character. Like, that was our goal. It was peak. And it was like, it's happening. And it was like, but I don't want it. Yeah, I don't want this.

I don't like it. I don't want it. But also, oh, I can't believe we're fucking doing it. Yes, we did it. There must be some aspect of freedom about it. Well, yeah, it was certainly the death of the public, you know, in some ways the real me and a thing that I had again back to like, you know, I think some of this happens inadvertently,

but that we create this persona that we're a part of it. And the only thing that was authentic was that there was like a person that was like, I'm trying to do something. And now I'm also just really fucking scared and I don't want it to happen anymore. Like, and there was something pure in that moment that revealed like a true nature. And yeah, that was, you know, an epiphany.

I mean, that was an incredibly powerful feeling. And it was like, well, yeah, that was an epiphany. I mean, that was an incredibly powerful feeling. And it was like, well, yeah, that's really the only thing worth going for. The kind of like, I've created a character, I've developed it, I'm staying in my character, I'm doing it, I'm affecting you, I hit my mark, I stay in my line, people cry here, I get an award. All of that was just fucking meaningless.

It was like all of that thing that I thought was my goal from when I started out young, it became crystal clear that that just was meaningless compared to this moment in which a true nature was revealed, that the experience of this person was revealed and through character that was revealed and it was like well of course that's the that's the fucking goal and everything else is just noise and and unimportant and you know there's a speech you give in the beginning of the movie where you're

standing outside you weren't you got a on, and it's everything you say is true. You're saying all true things about what you don't like about your job. It's really smart in that it walks that line of, yes, it's a character, yes, it's fake, and everything he's saying is true. Yeah, I mean, because, you know, these are things that I know that I've said pieces of in interviews or my friends had. We were aware of ourselves and each other. It was that moment where you've done it long enough

where you no longer are just like doing press going like, what's happening? You're like, oh, I've said these things. I've repeated these stories. My friends says this. I see them desperately wanting that. But saying that you just become, it was like the age that I was at. I could see also the part of me that is bullshit. And so I could take those things and use them and know that I've said it or I've seen my friends say it in a way and that I just was just basically repeating that and copying that. But yeah, that was a key moment that scene. I remember filming that where it was like, oh, now we're getting into a strange area. I can't fully articulate what this is.

But again, there's something that feels that it's, it's revealing and giving myself over. But honestly, the truth is, if it wasn't for Casey and that partnership, I wouldn't have gotten there on my own, I wouldn't have. I wasn't willing to take it public. I was too scared. And he saw the value.

He was like, you have the idea, but you don't have the fucking guts or whatever it may be to really, you want to crush your ego, but you're fucking too scared to really do it. And I don't know if he would have articulated it like that, but in some ways, that's what it was. I created this thing that was saying, all of this is fucking bullshit, and everything that I've done,

and the only value is to just decimate it. But I wasn't really willing to do that. I could only do that in a winking, laughing way. You guys see that I'm making fun of myself, right? Not like you guys see that I am actually, I am full of shit. This is all fucking. So how has that impacted everything since? First of all, I had succeeded in the way that I didn't want to,

which was I had actually destroyed my career. It was a fear. And to feel the effects of it for real were surprising, because I was an up-and-coming actor that I think... So it really did change in real life? Oh, God, yeah. I had no idea. Yeah.

Yeah, because we'd so successfully played with reality... Yeah. ...where nobody knew anymore. My agent, who I told a year and a half prior and did an interview with him, by the end was like, is this real? Is this real? Like, we'd just, we'd gone so deep.

And I think when it got so public, I think the feeling was, even if this started out as a joke, even if he's playing crazy, he's actually legitimately crazy because he's doing it. And so no matter what, he's got fucking problems. Like, no matter what, there's some stink on his fucking name right now. That is not.

So perception became reality. Yeah, completely. I mean it was for a year, I was this fucking joke. How would you expect me to be, what movie am I gonna be in where you're gonna take me, what are you gonna do? So we were, this is embarrassing to admit, but I think that we were convinced that we had a real shot

at making some money on this. And it turns out that it basically bankrupted us. I mean, we paid for it all of ourself and it wasn't very expensive, but I wasn't wealthy at the time, wealthy comparatively, but I hadn't paid off my house. And I was trying to get the mortgage.

So there was a point where I was like, oh man, I'm fucked. And so began the process of trying to work again. And also the first time going like, I gotta rebuild this thing. See, I wanted to build something, thank God. But I also feel like a slight desperation that I'd never felt before,

because as much as I was always building something, I always had like the support and good graces of people around me. Which would burn. Burned every bridge. Completely, and so it was like, oh shit. So the first time I was really going to the rooms, like back to when I was like a kid,

being like, hey, please, can you, hey, can I? And I remembered that one of the only options I had was just, I won't say the movie, but just a terrible movie. And I was like, I gotta, You gotta do it. I gotta do it. I gotta do it. And I just was like, but all that, all that for this. That's not, you know, I just was like, no.

I don't know what I thought, but I didn't think it was gonna be like that. And I have to say, I have to give credit, because I think a lot of times, you know, agents will get a bad rap, right? And probably for good reason and shit. But I had recently started working with this guy, Boomer Malkin, he's a WME agent.

He was Patrick Whitesoul's assistant, who I always kind of dismissed as like the assistant and you're gonna try and pawn him off or whatever. And in this moment of real desperation, I was offered real money, more money than I should have been offered considering. And I never felt like I relied on anybody about decisions. But I was broken. I was fucking scared.

I remember talking to Boomer and I was like, dude, I literally don't. I've never been a physicist. I don't know what to do. And he's like, do you have to do the movie? I said, what do you mean? He's like, at least it doesn't matter. I was like, no. He's like, well then you shouldn't.

And for somebody whose job is to collect 10% off of you, looking at a real paycheck, after you've destroyed your fucking career, I think if the higher ups knew that he gave me that advice, he could have been fucking can, you know, it's pretty, pretty bold. And I really needed that at the time. And I was like, thank you. And I'm just fucking locked in again.

I was like, in that moment, I was like, okay, boom, done. I'm not after anything. This is where we are. We know it's going to find us. And not long after Amanda, Demi, reached out to me saying, hey, Paul Thomas Anderson wants your number. And I yelled, of course, and Paul sent me the script, which was this movie, The Master. And so that was the first. So The Master was the first movie after that. Yeah. Wow. And that was a great one. Yeah. That was like, well, I don't deserve that.

Wow. Like after what I've done. Wow. You know what I mean? Well, it turns out you did. I mean, you know, I certainly went through the lows of, you know, everything is fucked. And then I was, yeah, I was...

That's a happy ending to that story. Yeah, sure, sure. That's amazing. It sure is. And then since then, what happened? The Master then became like a total immersion, but in a more classical form, I guess. I wouldn't know how to, this is not my language,

but like proper filmmaking, and not to say that what we did was a wild experimental thing with video cameras running around. This was 70 millimeter and it was like this scale in some ways. The scale of the emotion and the experience between Paul and Philip Seymour Hoffman and myself that I experienced, you know, those two films and the experiences of my. Yeah. You know.

Head back to back. Yeah. So in some ways, Paul is such a, such a high level that to be honest, working on that movie felt like I was making I was looking here in that I was just, you know, navigating this world in this character. And I was at some point was a passenger, you know, these things, this thing started to emerge and he encouraged and allowed and sculpted.

And what happened in that film, that experience, is it made me go like, okay, well, with a director like Paul, you go all in because there's like, I haven't seen the movie, I don't really know what, I haven't seen it in years. And I don't know what it is, but I do know that there are many scenes in there that are some of the most poorly acted scenes

I've ever committed to film, bad, over the top character stuff. And Paul, I don't remember him ever directly saying no, I think he just went around. He just avoided your shit and found those moments, you know, that where you are connected with another person, right? And there was something with,

I had such a deep, like instant love and trust in both Paul and Philip. Do you think you're the same actor you were before the documentary, or did that actually change how you do what you do? Yeah, of course it changed. And then the master, I think some of what I experienced during I'm here, the idea of like a real experience in the moment,

which I've had previously in other films. I think I'm Still Here allowed me to like, look, I could probably humiliated myself. It couldn't be any worse. And so, in that was a liberation. And I then accepted that that was going to be a part of my process and I welcomed it, but I knew that that was gonna be a part of it

and I was gonna do things that if I stepped out of it, were gonna be so embarrassing to think about that it would derail whatever was happening, that I had to just stay in it and stay in the fucking pain or the discomfort or the ugliness and, yes, the joy of moments. Do you take the characters home with you at night? Consciously, no. I did find on, um... on the Master, there was...

Some of the physicality was so extreme that, again, there were moments where it fell apart for whatever reason you, maybe you're five weeks in and you're feeling a bit more comfortable and then you talk with somebody on set and then the next moment it's gone and all it is is that you're looking at yourself like you're away and it's so scary and painful

and so it was like, I have to stay here just because I'll laugh at myself, you know, I'll just be fucking stupid, what am I doing? In the documentary, would you say that was the most committed you've ever been to a character? No, it was just like the longest. It just went on, it was like four fucking years.

It was beyond the shooting. You did it everywhere you went for a period of time. You lived it, yes or no. Yeah, I mean, I mostly just, when we were shooting, I just didn't go out. Because it was like, I don't want to have to, I don't have to see anybody, I don't want to explain this. I just didn't talk to my friends because it was too uncomfortable, I didn't have to see anybody, I don't have to explain this. I just didn't talk to my friends

because it was too uncomfortable, I didn't want to lie. So there were like a couple times when it was like uncomfortable. From the time you start shooting, do the characters continue to change or do you have the picture from the beginning? Oh no, I mean, it's, my experience is like,

it's three weeks before there's anything really worthwhile here. But oftentimes you don't have that luxury. So it depends, I mean, there are things that you just, for you to know some parts of it. I just, I knew on the Master, I knew that there was things that you just, you just know some parts of it. I just, I knew on the master, I knew that there was something with his mouth on the right side, I knew he couldn't open his mouth.

I didn't totally understand what it was. I knew it enough to where I went to my dentist and he glued these brackets on my teeth and I wrapped rubber bands on them so I couldn't open my mouth. So I knew that. But at some point, I was so locked into it that I took the rubber bands off because

And you still were there. That's it, my jaw was locked. I didn't know why. I could have easily, two weeks in, been like, I can't, no, this is wrong. It just was an instinct. How long was it after the film before you got back use of your draw?

It was probably pretty quick. Really? Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, it's like, it's like, you know, if you just were like, I'm holding my hands like this, and you just, you know, did that, you just do it, but pretty quickly, you, I think you'd come back, you know, a lot of that character was just, just tensing muscle, literally was just a physical state of making things tense so that it just was coiled. And it just held that and then you stop tensing. I think sometimes through habit, when you do things for a while, your body gets used to doing it that way

and then it's hard to stop. I mean, to be honest, I don't really remember. I mean, the thing that I remember is, we were at that fucking movie. I had just bags of chips and fucking cookies and shit that I'd fucking ordered in advance waiting for me at my house because I wasn't eating for months.

And I went home and I fucking laid in bed. I don't think I left my bed for weeks and I think I just sat there just fucking eating. I literally just fucking ate cookies and watched TV and I didn't see anybody. And I think that I was just like, what is my fucking life? I just reduced to an organism that was just trying to like eat, like consume energy. And that's really all I remember about following that movie.

So I don't know what the process was, but I don't think it was anything that dramatic. When you got offered the Joker, was it obvious that you wanted to do it? No. First, I liked Todd, the director, Todd Phillips. Had you worked with him before or no? I hadn't.

And the script's very well written, you know, so it was a great script. And it had this like unbelievable ending. It's like last act that was really shocking. To me, it was a big movie. It was like 55 million, which I think to talk about it was like a small movie. But to me, it was a big movie.

It was what they call IP. It's like this thing and I'd never done that. I felt like, but it was a one-off. It wasn't any contract for a sequel. Todd seemed so curious. He just kept telling me that we were going to be able to do what we wanted. That there was no expectation. there was no studio expectation really, that he was in control and he had built a schedule that was going to allow us to play, like to try things.

And I was like, well, that is just like, all I want to do is try things and I never really have the resources. And it's really hard to turn that down. But I still was very unsure and I struggled with it for months and months. My wife Rooney was, you know, at some point she was like, you're doing this. Not like I'm telling you, but like she had a knowing.

This is gonna be what you do next, but go through your process. Todd says as a joke, but like she had a knowing. This is gonna be what you do next, but go through your process. Todd says as a joke, but it's kind of true that I never agreed to it and I was already shooting and I still hadn't said that I was doing it. Like it was still a possibility. Understood. Did he ever tell you why he wanted you to do it?

No, and actually I remember I talked to Chris Nolan about the dark night. And that wasn't gonna happen for whatever reason, I think that I wasn't ready then. And that's one of those things, right? Sometimes where you go, why am I not doing this? Well, what does that mean? It's not doing it.

And sometimes it goes, it's because it's not about me. There's something else. There's another person that's gonna do something that is like, I can't imagine what it would be if we didn't have Heath Ledger's performance in that film, right? And I don't know whether Christopher Nolan was calling to me saying, you are definitely the person.

I can't remember the context of how we met, but I know that we met. And my feeling was, I shouldn't do this, but maybe he also was like, you're not the guy. I couldn't say. But it went the way it was supposed to go. Absolutely. Yeah, and in this case too. You know, I guess so.

And true to his word, Ka really allowed us to play. I mean, the first two weeks, maybe it was even three weeks. Three weeks sounds insane. That's why I'm questioning it. But it really might have been. There's very little the first three weeks in the movie. And I was doing a character that was an idea that I had with this certain physicality that Todd and I talked about. And we were doing it. And there's a part of me that was like, I know, I'm not sure about this. And I've had that feeling with almost everything I've done. Yeah, yeah.

And one weekend, Todd and I went into the editing suite and watched footage of three weeks. And actually, to her credit, I asked Rune to come in also, because I was like, am I crazy? But Todd and I, and certainly with Ru's encouragement, I think we looked at each other, and we both, it's that kind of thing where you know, it's hard to admit to each other,

but we both have been pursuing this thing going down a road that isn't right, and it's contrived. And that was probably the most painful version I've ever had of that in my life. Like, holy fucking shit. I've had the embarrassment of a couple scenes, but this is weeks of work. In some ways, we had the time,

and I think that in some ways, Todd and I knew just from talking that there was something more between us. Even though we couldn't say specifically right then. And there were some things that were good or interesting about it, or at least felt like different. But it wasn't real. And we changed the way that I wore the costumes, the change, hair and makeup, and changed the acting. Like radically.

And that was a wild experience, dude. That was wild, because it was like, it was like my first studio movie in a long fucking time. So I was making these $20 million movies, and so I felt this pressure. It's like, oh shit, it's a studio thing, long fucking time. Yeah. So I was making these $20 million movies. So I felt this pressure. It's like, oh shit, it's a studio thing. And they've paid me some.

And this is this beloved fucking character in a world. And I'm just lost. And I'm just terrible. And Todd was just like, bro, I love you dude, you're fine. We're gonna do this, we're gonna be okay. I was like, how the fuck can he be, does he not see how bad this is?

And he saw there was something more going on, you know, he kind of was like, somehow was able to just bat that to the side. I was going like, dude, this is the fucking end. Like sometimes you gotta look up and you're like, blindfolds on, there's gonna be a fucking rifle shot going off and that's it. All right, so just fucking take it like a man.

This is that moment, right? I fucked up, you fucked up, you got the wrong person. We're going down. And he was like, bruh, no. No way. He was like, no, you're good. Let's go. Just go at it.

Let's go at it. We've got the time. It doesn't matter. Let's change it. Let's work at it. It's OK. So we did. And in that process, again, was a kind of a death of the ego.

Yeah. And a death of a death of the ego. And a death of your ideas, the death of your fantasies of like, God damn, I am fucking good. I'm fucking good, that's a good idea. You know, I admit, I'm ashamed, but I have had, no matter how many times I go through it, I still have those moments where I go like,

it's a good fucking idea, that's gonna be good and uh went in there with a fixed fucking idea and I stopped having reverence for the thing and I stopped having gratitude and I stopped saying thank you and I stopped saying like oh along for the ride I kind of was like here's the thing I started like this and do this you know a little bit back to the fucking release story from Gladiator, it's just all that same thing that I have to kind of keep going through. Again, I can't allow myself to be in the business

of the outcome and what happens, but I know the difference between the first three weeks and the following several weeks where it's not a place to say what's good or not but of like I'm in an experience like I'm no longer controlling things I'm reacting and then to have that on that that scale yeah and to be able to have the resources to reshoot things, to alter moments, to go back. That was special, that was super valuable. And I never had that before.

That's a man. Yeah. ["Sweet Home"] Thank you.