Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Kelly Wearstler

Episode Date: March 11, 2026

Kelly Wearstler is a designer, creative director, and founder of the Los Angeles-based design firm Kelly Wearstler. Her work includes projects such as the San Francisco Proper Hotel, the Avalon Hotel Beverly Hills, the Four Seasons Anguilla, and Beefbar Courchevel. She has led residential, hotel, retail, and commercial projects worldwide while working with artists and craftspeople to honor history, location, and architecture, approaching each project as a multidisciplinary collaboration that emphasizes materiality, place, and storytelling. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: AG1 https://DrinkAG1.com/tetra ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://DrinkLMNT.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Squarespace https://Squarespace.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter

tetragameter. The most difficult problems to solve would be time. When things are in construction, every day, just it's money. The clients want to get in. There's schedules. You have contractors, and you have all the different subcontractors involved. They also have other projects. And so really getting a handle on that, and everyone has to work in unison together and

collaborate, have incredible communication. You know, we have a project now. we're working on where there's 500 consultants and different team members that work below them that are working on one project. And so you just have to have structure and the accountability and just great talents that know how to operate. Will that one ever get done? Yes. Yes. It's already behind schedule. Of course. And it's actually a really cool project. Tell me about it. It's in Lake Tahoe, which is so gorgeous.

I hadn't been either until I went to see the project for the first time, but it's the only place I've been to where there's one species of plant, and it's all a pine tree. Like there's nothing mixed in. It's so sculptural and really quite stunning. Cool. And it's a project called Calneva, and it was built as a home. hotel casino in 1926. It was a place that all of Hollywood would go and hang out because it was

one of the first casinos in California, Nevada. And that's why it's called Calneva because it's on the border of California, Nevada. And Judy Garland would go there, all the Hollywood producers, actors, directors. And then in 1960, Frank Sinatra bought it. Wow. And he built the Frank Sinatra theater, which is a 400-person theater. And some of the history is quite fascinating. There's all these tunnels that are underneath the property that Frank could easily go into, you know, around the property without being seen. Marilyn Monroe would hang out there, the Kennedys, you know, it was that whole kind of

brat pack era. And they would perform there. So we're reimagining it. And of course, like really taken in all the history. preserving as much historic fabric as we can. And it is a really ambitious project. We're building chelets. There's a membership club.

There's a recording studio. There are six food and beverage outlets. There's a 40,000 square foot wellness facility with racket sports and retail. It goes on. How many rooms? There are 200 rooms. And are you doing everything? Everything.

Wow. Yeah. In a project like that, where there's so many aspects to it, do you make an overall stylistic decision that impacts all of it? What do you think of them as each of the pieces can be its own thing? Each of the pieces can be their own thing, but it's like the ultimate collaboration. It really is because there are many voices.

So there is an incredible chef. There's incredible doctor that's part of the wellness. there's some musical talent producers that are involved from Olson Kundig, who's the architect on this project, who's fantastic and all this great programming. So that kind of gives us the direction on. So we will have many conversations with the chef, like what is the food and beverage? What is what do you want to do here? How do you want to operate? What do you want the vibe to be? But we want it to feel like you're in Lake Tahoe, like having a place that feels site-specific is like really important to me and my studio.

Do you want to feel like you're stepping back in time when you get there? Yes, there'll be a sense of nostalgia. But it's not going to feel, I mean, it'll feel reimagined, but there is like in my work, I find, I use a lot of vintage and furniture from, you know, the past. I love history. But there will also be some really cool contemporary artists that'll bring their hand in sculpture and in furniture and different millwork. And so the red thread is really the music in this project. If something has a historical significance, which this one does, where's the

line between recreating what was there and bringing something new where the new parts don't undermine the history? You know, it's a good question because the historic fabric is probably maybe 30% there, more in the lodge. And so really uncovering. And over the years, it was owned by different developers. And so kind of peeling back the drywall, looking at some of the original bones, and creating the tensions between bringing something that's contemporary. And if something's contemporary, I wanted to have, like, really, like, rich woods that are tactile and have a lot of spirit, and they feel vintage. And whether we bring in a contemporary artist, and that material is maybe it's, you know, some sort of like raw sandblasted glass,

or there is some sort of metal that has been treated, and that creates these beautiful tensions, bringing in furniture and lighting and creating these different dichotomies. Will there still be a casino? Yes. Will you be designing the casino? Yes. That's amazing.

Yeah, and there's a lot of first here for us, like the recording studio, the casino, so just learning all about the business, which is fascinating. Because I'm so curious and I love to learn. It's like infinite and like being a creative. That's the beauty of what we do. So being able to design these spaces and work with the different casino gambling consultants and just learn how all this operates and just all of the different security and processes is really fascinating. It's all table games. So it's very chic. It's very chic. It's It'll be something like you would see, you know, in Monaco. But it feels like Calneva and it has that spirit, that historic spirit and the nostalgia that was there.

Do you ever manufacture pieces specifically for projects as opposed to finding existing furniture? Yeah, we commission a lot of artists to do things that are specific and proprietary to a project. And, you know, we could look for, you know, quite some time and not find the right piece. So we have many different artists that we've worked with in the past. And that's one of like the most exciting parts of my job is going to the studio of an artist and working with them. And I'm always looking around like in their materials library and just things laying around. And I'll find something and say, this is incredible. And they're like, oh, I was like working on something, you know, a couple of years ago.

And I'm like, I love this. And I also love what you do. And let's do something new and different together. So it's just one of the most exciting parts of creating and collaborating with many different artists. And that's one of the reasons I started the side hustle, this project, which is a side hustle is like a new gallery. It's a new model. And it all came from working with artists and we would commission them to do proprietary works for

projects. And just over the years, whether it was like in a book or it was a hotel project and people would say, I love that. And it was like done specifically for this project. And I love celebrating artists. I love emerging artists. Of course, I love the established. But there's always, you know, I like kind of the old and new.

I like the raw and the refined and the emerging and the established. And so I have 10 artists. And the curatorial theme is called again differently. And it's about failing, doing something again, but differently. And the works crossover from rubber. to performance art, to a scent. Like, I want to stimulate all the senses. It's something that I do in my hospitality projects.

And so there's a atmospheric playlist that Kenny Beetz did for me. There is a mirror. There's bronze. We worked with Sonia Gomez, who's an amazing artist from Brazil, and she works in tapestry and textiles. And so she did her first works in bronze.

So everything is exclusive. And it's kind of like a free spirit for artists. Are they functional pieces or are they art pieces? They're both. It's a place where artists maybe want to do something that they maybe don't have the means to do. They need to lean on my team and I for maybe the assembly or fabrication. And so it's this like great collaborative effort. So it's been like really exciting.

And, you know, going to the artist studio, they're global. It's like Brazil and Berlin and Amsterdam and L.A. and New York, but it's a free spirit platform. And it crosses over also automotive. We had a vintage, amazing vintage car there, and, you know, it's music, and it's sculpture and its design, it's performance art, and it's poetry. You know, there's no, like, set agenda.

Yeah. Are most artists that you go to interested in collaborating? Yes. Cool. Always. Because I think all artists want to learn and grow and challenge themselves. And so it's really great. And I actually, it's in my home, the gallery.

So it's there and it's open by appointment only. And, you know, I wanted a place where people could come and feel, you know, inspired. And it's a very warm and friendly atmosphere. You know, a lot of the galleries now feel very cold. And you're a little intimidated to go. And I was like, if I ever do something like this, I wanted to feel really warm and inviting. Is there an online aspect of it as well? well or no? Yes, yeah. There's a digital platform. And it's really great. It has, you know, all the

artists and it has their story and a lot of great storytelling. And there's also, it's called Hustle Culture. And Hustle Culture is a place that you can go to to be inspired. So there's a lot of like moving images and then you can open the image and it'll tell you what it is. You know, and I love continuing to learn and I would love to share that, you know, knowledge with everyone. Describe a maximalist interior versus a minimalist interior? A maximalist interior has so much energy, and it is endless discovery, and a minimalist environment makes you think and ponder and breathe and kind of take a moment. And what's your relationship to both of those?

I've been in all of those scenarios and in between, and I love collecting, and as I've been going to, you know, going to auctions and flea markets and thrift stores my whole entire life. And when I see these anomalies in the world, like I want to buy them. I want to take them home. Kind of earlier in my career, I was, you know, really having a little more of a maximalist design theory. And, you know, it's working with clients that really kind of help push me forward because I would have clients that I really want to really spare. and it has kind of taken me to a new place. Like, I'm kind of in between. But if somebody wanted me to do something maximalist,

I would love it. But I would also love to do something that is so pared down, where it's just about the materiality, it's about the modeled light that comes through the window and the volume of the space. What type of things do you collect? Everything.

I love everything that is interesting. And it could be, a tray. It could be a chair. It could be a vintage tie, jewelry. It could be a light fixture. And it's all over the place. And I'm just open to anything that's unique and interesting. Where are your favorite places to shop? You know, all over. I travel for work and I travel with my family. And I'm always seeking out like the places to go, whether it's a thrift store. store and I still love going into like the stinky thrift store and digging through just everything to find like I collect vintage books I love vinyl I love you know vintage clothing and it's just all

over the place so really seeking out those type of stores and then I love the contemporary so going to galleries and then just over the years I have great relationships with like many dealers around the world and constantly in communication with them and just have a great, you know, kind of roster of amazing people have the same kind of curiosity and shopping problem that I have. Do you use first dibs? Yeah, first dibs is a good source, but just getting through, there's like a lot of, a lot of things on first dibs. And so I really now feel, you know, I have the pleasure of working with a lot of people.

that I really like their taste level, and I like what they find and what they curate. And so I really focus on, you know, that group of people, and there's many of those. And I also love auctions. I love going to auctions and it's like now we're actually getting into auction season, which is so fun. And you find things that you weren't looking for.

And like that's the best. Like that discovery is so exciting. And I found these really cool vintage Art Deco guitars. There's eight of them. And they're made with a plastic. The color theory is amazing. And so, like, I wasn't looking for those. But I was so, like, just the energy and the excitement when I saw those,

I knew how to have those. And those would be great for Calneva. Are there any things you've ever bought or collected that you could not imagine parting with? Yes, for sure. Like what? Like, I have these pair of chairs that are, they're called Dolores Eckhart. chairs. They were made in the 80s and they're really, really difficult to find. And the chairs,

like, I love chairs. I love things that are functional, but also very sculptural. Describe what those chairs look like. They're faceted. And they have a low back, and the exterior shell is wood. Would you say they look deco or no? No, they look kind of like punk 80s. And they're black, and they have, like, this exterior wood shell, and they're very beveled, and they have two back legs that are open. And so the silhouette is like really quite beautiful. And then the interior is leather, black leather. And they're all original? And they're all original. Like I like finding things that are in the original condition. Like when we find things that are that are vintage and have like a really nice patina on them, we just really very gently, you know, restore them because we like that

patina and things that have history and that feel like they've been around the block. If there's a classic item that's rare and for whatever reason you can't find one, would you make one to use if it was the right thing for the project? No, because there's something about something that has history that you just cannot, like, reproduce. What do you think it is? It's the patina, even if it's slight, just like on the leg or, you know, you can tell, like, it's had like another life, it's had a story, and you have friends like that. You know, it's the same thing with furniture and in different things that we curate.

You know, work of art. It's been in like so many rooms. It's heard so many conversations. You know, you feel the energy. You really do. As nutrition science advanced through the mid-20th century, researchers began to understand that modern eating patterns, limited variety, processed foods and time constraints could leave small but meaningful gaps in daily micronutrient intake.

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and how it's sewn and assembled and the stitching. And I'll use that on something that's upholstered. And with my team at the studio, like when we're designing something, I'm like, don't look at anything that represents that category. Like, if you're going to design a chair, look at architecture. Or if you're going to design, you know, a drinking glass, perhaps look at earrings. Like, that's how you're going to find something and create something new is when you discover inspiration in an odd place. I love that idea.

And in my studio, when we're starting projects, like, I do not want to see any contemporary interiors or architecture. Like, you have to know history to be. a good designer. You really do. I mean, how can you reinvent something that is now and happening now? And even when we design a space and why I love, like, many of our spaces, like, truly feel timeless because it's filled with soulful material. And it's also filled with vintage and antique and found objects and design. There's contemporary pieces that are there for sure, because I love that tension, but you really can't tell when the house was designed. And that's like really important to me. I want it to be timeless. Yeah. I read that you got to work with Milton Glazer. Yes.

Tell me about that. Oh, yeah. So I went to college. I found Myrtle Beach. I went to school in Boston, and I was there for four years. And then I decided that I was going to go to New York for maybe a year or two, and I got an apprenticeship with Milton Glacier, and he's like, I caught. How did that happen? I sent him a note. Wow. Yeah, I sent him a note. What did the notes say? That I loved his work. I think I put together, like, I was always into putting together these, like, really kind of, like, elaborate little books that kind of told a story. I put together, and I would always make the envelope, like, I was always making things, like things that just felt special and, like, a little piece of art. and I sent him a note and I got a call back and they wanted to meet.

So I remember taking the train, went to New York and I got the job for, it was more of like an apprenticeship for a year. And it was amazing because, and what I really loved about him is he was doing some interiors, but he was also this iconic graphic designer. And he created the I Love New York, you know, symbol, this iconic. And he obviously worked in the music business, and he just did so many incredible things. And he was, like, playful and just his use of typography and his use of color. So I worked with him, and it was in a townhouse.

And there were four floors. And he was always so fluid. He was like, you know, in all the different floors working. Do you live there as well? No, he didn't live there. So it was just a fourth floor office. Yeah, it was just his office. How many employees at that time would you say?

I would say there was probably 20 and it crossed over, you know, design. I mean, he was really like, you know, a multidisciplinary designer. And I remember his work, he did a restaurant in Manhattan that was that had all these like figural parts. It was like a nose and an eye and his like use of sculpture. And it was just like, you know, quite playful. And just was drawn to that. So I worked with them for a year and it was amazing. And I, I, I then decided, like, I wanted to, I mean, New York's a hard city when you have no money. And, like, I wasn't making that much money when I was working for Milton. I was still, I was waiting tables still on the side so I could afford to pay my rent with my two other roommates. And it was a great time, but I just wanted to be close to the ocean and be, you know, in warm weather. But it was a really, it was a great time. Can you remember a piece of wisdom, Milton or anyone else imparted on you? that changed how you saw the world?

I would say it came from my mom, and it was really, like, early on, she was just like nobody will take care of you other than yourself. You have to be happy on your own. You have to take care of yourself. Obviously, you know, find love, but you have to own yourself.

And she was always a big, believer in, like, taking risks. She grew up in Ohio, you know, and just decided, like, of course, she grew up with all our friends. They stayed there. And she and my dad, like, just moved to Myrtle Beach. Just some, like, interesting move at that time. And so that was something that she was always, you know, telling my sister and I, and it really stuck. Did they say why they chose to move to Myrtle Beach?

Because, like, the weather, they would go and visit there. and then they just loved it. I mean, you know, it's like different. It's a very different place to grow up, and it was just alive to them. And they just felt free there, and it was, you know, a beautiful place. Tell me about your parents' relationship.

They got married when they were 18, no, 17. Wow. Really young. And they were like high school sweethearts, and they were together for, about five years because when they moved to Myrtle Beach, it kind of like started to fizzle out. And it was like a hard time like for my sister and I because they ended up getting a divorce. And like we're in a new place. And then my dad kind of like just kind of like stepped out of like the family.

And it was like really a hard time and like so hurtful. You know, and I think about why I do what I do. And like, I always like, I'm a people pleaser and I want to make people happy and creating like spaces and places for people to come to, like, because great design makes you want to stay. Yeah. Has your personal taste changed over the course of your life? Yes. Oh my God. My taste is 100% changed. Like just growing up in South Carolina, my mom was always taking us to like the vintage store. We would go to a number of. North Carolina. We go to New York City together. And we were always just auctions, flea markets, thrift stores, constantly looking for interesting things. And she had this little antique shop.

So she was always looking to curate items from there. So my sister and I were always in tow. So I was at that point in my life, like from a very young age, like educating my eye. And just because I'm so curious, like I'm just opening up books. And, in magazines and like, I discovered I have this love for graphic design, and which is what I went to school for before I were studying architecture. So going to all these places with my mom and really just discovering things, picking up candlesticks and, and opening up books and, you know, buying scarves and fashion and just seeing everything in one place and always being surprised. So really knowing, like from growing up in Myrtle Beach,

knowing that you have to kind of always seek out the beauty and things that are interesting. Do you still like the things that you might have liked back then or no? I still love things that have like soul. Yeah. If you look at my early work, and sometimes I'm like, oh my God, like what was I thinking? Like I would never use that color again.

Like, I don't know. It just like feels like maybe it wasn't, wouldn't be as bright. So, like, I think, obviously, over time, your taste level gets better. But then, like, I was a risk taker. I'm still a risk taker. But I have, like, your taste becomes more refined and you're exposed to more things and you're educating your eye and you're learning from your clients. I'm learning from all these incredible creatives that I work with. And still, I love chairs. I love art and I love sculpture. So that hasn't changed. That all still. is like so important and true to what I do.

Is it possible that any of those things that you look back and think that wasn't very good was actually very good, but it was just a different time? Yeah, so like there, that's, it's so true. Like, I would have done things again differently. And I was like, that was actually a bold move when I did that. What I, and I've asked myself, would I do that again? Yeah. And I would do it again, but it would be in a different situation.

and like so many things, like early in your career, is like based on budget. And it's based on having the limitations. And we still get them now on all our projects. Like there are limitations that even pushes up to be more creative. But there are things that I go back and look at past work. And I was like, that was like a bold move. And, you know, and I'm a shy person.

Like, I'm really shy. And people think, oh, you're like, why? or in your work is so much more, you know, makes a statement. Yeah. Tell me about your relationship to colors. Color, oh, I got, color is so emotional. And I love color and white is a color. Black is a color. And I like everything, you know, in between. My home now is all white.

All the walls are white and I'm actually redoing a room now that I'm going to experience. with color. And we've actually lived in the house that we live in now for quite some time. And it was many different rooms. There were many different colors. And that's when I went into my kind of pare down mode. I was like maximalist there. And then I just started removing things. And I was like, God, it feels so good. There's like space. Things can breathe. But now I feel like I want like a little color, but it's going to be muted. But color is really personal to people. And we take our time, you know, when we present color to clients, you know, whether it is in textile or whether it's on a wall or it's on a floor. You know, we really like to experiment

and do interesting things with color. It's like so important. Describe your house. The house I live in is a 1926 Georgian style home designed by James Delina. And it is a home that has a lot of history, actually a lot of Hollywood history. And it's a home that I never thought I would be living in. It has so much spirit and soul. Like you just, you can feel it. It just feels so good. And I remember the first time that we went to see the house and we actually lived up the street in another home, a very different home. It was a 1956 Hal Levitt. and it was like 10 houses up from this house. And I remember my husband, I just had Oliver and Elliott.

I just, we just renovated this house. And he was like, I found another house. And I was just like, no way. And he was like, let's just go look at it. And of course, you know, we drove up in the landscaping. There's like, there's like beautiful trees everywhere. And it's just, you know, has this amazing energy. And that's really important to me.

The house has, you know, really kind of delicate architecture and it's intimate. Like the scale is very intimate. And we use every room in the house, which is just great and nothing's precious. We have friends and kids over. It's a very active, busy house. I have a team from my studio come over and it's very energetic. And it's always changing. Like there's always something changing, art, furniture, getting moved in.

And it's like my laboratory. Is your house the only place that you've done and then redone? Or are there other places that you've done and then sometime years later gone back and changed them? Well, we lost our house in the fire. So this is something that we built our family home. And we were there for, we had this house for 16 years. And so we're doing it again. And we're doing it again.

But it's going to be different. So the 16 year ago house burned? Yes, and we built that home, and there are many beautiful things to the home. And my family wants it to be exactly how it was because it was so meaningful to them and, like, just all the memories and being there and the smells and just the movement around the house. And they want it to be exactly the same, but you never will. Like at the entrance of our home, when you walked in, there was this huge, huge plaster cornucopia that was about eight feet. And it just kind of sat on the floor like a shell because I wanted everything just to kind of feel like there were things like I found on

the beach. It was all very tactile and earthy. But it was in this very minimal space. It was an entrance that was all skinned in timber. And then you just had this big shell. Like, I'm never going to find that again. But the footprint is the same. We also had in the center of the house, it was like a two-story volume that was open. So the energy of upstairs and downstairs are very fluid. And I planted a huge tree in there. So we're going to do that again. So there'll be some moves that are similar, but it's going to be, it's going to be very different. The process will be the same. We're already like, you know, curating things together as a family and we're living a little differently. So there'll be some new programming and things that, you know, we want to enjoy in a different way. But there's the dialogue, though,

I actually drove by on the way here, and there we had this incredible rock, like two rocks that are in the front of our house was like the sculpture. So that is going to be the same and that energy and that dialogue with the house and this rock is going to, you know, bring back the memories. LMNT. Element Electrolights. Have you ever felt dehydrated after an intense workout or a long day in the sun? Do you want to maximize your endurance? and feel your best, add element electrolytes to your daily routine. Perform better and sleep deeper.

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Minerals are the stuff of life. So visit drink l-M-M-N-T.com slash tex. and stay salty with element electrolyte, L-M-N-T. Can you think of the most shocking thing you ever suggested to a client? Yes, and I ended up having to fix it after. What was it? It was for this woman, her house. She lived in the Hollywood Hills, and this is probably like into my year three when I just started and have my business in L.A., which happened.

unexpectedly, but I was working on her house, and I was like, let's do these stripes that are like all over the house, but they changed in the different rooms, because she wanted color and she wanted energy and something was dynamic, and it was a disaster. It was so, and she was out of town when it happened, and then I ended up, I honestly, like, ended up painting it back myself one color. Wow.

Because she had a budget. You know, I want to make her home, like, so amazing. Yeah. You know, I just took a, big risk and it did not pan out. Did she get to see it or she never got to see it? No, I called her and I was like, it just doesn't look good. Like, we're going to go back. She was like, okay, like she was like really cool. But the project turned out amazing. Great. So you learned kind of, you know, along the way and I was going to have to have to pay for it myself or do it myself.

And I ended up just doing it myself. Did that make you gun shy about trying outrageous things? Yes, it made me, yes, it made me gun shy. But I still like, Like, maybe still taking risks, but maybe not doing it in the entire house. Like, that was where it was just, like, too bold of a move. Any rules that are unbreakable? For example, does a living room always have a couch? No. I think that, no, it doesn't have to.

And I think it's what somebody does in the space. It doesn't have to have a sofa. and it could be just chairs. It could just be benches. You know, it all really comes down to its purpose. Are clients good at explaining what they do in the spaces or no? They are. I mean, there's like what people expect to do in the space.

And we try and really get, you know, ask the right questions to get information out of like, what do you, you know, do you like to lay down? Do you like to sit up? Do you like to, you know, have different tables that you can move around? Do you want things that are more flexible? Do you want to be able to, you know, have, you know, great lighting. Like, lighting is so important on projects and lighting. We want everyone to look great. All our clients look great.

And so lighting is, like, so important. Are you ever inspired by interiors you see in old movies? Oh, yeah, I love seeing things in old movies and love the, you know, 20s, 30s, 40s. I mean, that's the beauty of Los Angeles. It's like this free spirit of like all this amazing architecture that is just everywhere. When you walk into a space for the first time, do you always have a vision of what it can be or does it take a while to understand the possibilities? It takes a while. And I'm all about like keeping it flexible and you're going to discover things along the way. And we do. We have the tools now to create these great renderings and

really show clients, like what the possibilities are. But, you know, at the end of the day, someone, a client's going to say, you know, I really want this room. I actually want to do something else in this space. And so I like keeping it, you know, very flexible and specific. And just, again, having the communication with the client to envision on, you know, what, what the space could be. Would you build the same thing in Lake Tahoe? as in Los Angeles, as in New York? No. Like, everything is site-specific.

And I love the diversity of architecture. I love the, obviously, the clients bring so much to the table. The team at my studio is a different assembly of team. Like, the outcome is very different. Like, it's interesting to see what different team members bring to a project. and it's the same thing, you know, with the art architect. And, you know, the art advisor could be helping the clients curate incredible selection of art.

And that's also such a big part of what the outcome will be. So every project we do is different. Like, I don't have a good playbook. It's not like, oh, we're going to do this here. I like to push myself. I like to push my team and do something different every time. If you go back to something you worked on a while ago, and he come back to visit it,

does it feel like that's how I left it when I left it or no? No, it feels like things have changed in terms of like furniture, maybe will be in like a different place because people have parties and there's a lot of different things happening. So, yeah, overall, it definitely feels the same. It has the same smell.

It has the same vibe. You know, maybe the books that I curated early on or different. Yeah. You're relying on people that are working at the hotel at that moment that maybe have gone and gotten books for the library. So I always want to keep it tight. Like, it's so important to me.

And we work really hard to do that. What was your first professional project? My first professional project was the Avalon Hotel. And that's a hotel in Beverly Hills that is an iconic 1950s hotel. It was actually built as an apartment hotel. Marilyn Monroe actually lived there as a young actress. And it changed hands over the years. And it was bought by a group of developers.

And my husband was one of the owners. And I had been working with him. He's in real estate. And I worked with him maybe for two years on these historic apartment buildings they were buying. And we were renovating them and giving them, you know, love and working on the common areas. And so when he got this hotel, I'm like, I really want to do this project. And he had investors, and the investors were like, well, she hasn't done a hotel

because it's a different, it really is a different beast. And so the investors were like, well, we'll have or do a model room. Because when you do a hotel, you have to do a model room and make sure everything is perfect and all the parties are aligned. It's functional. It looks great. And when you go to execute, it's all been, you know, studied. And they also said, oh, you also have to find an architect who's done a hotel before. So I found Koenig Eisenberg. And Koning Eisenberg had done the Mondrian with Philippe Stark on sunset. And I found them, and they were incredible. And they taught me so much. Like, they're so lovely. And so that was the first hotel, kind of the big project that I felt really help propel me a little into more of

like the commercial world. I was also doing residential. And I was doing like some office. And, you know, when I came to Los Angeles, I was in Boston and New York. I went to school there. I'd only been to Los Angeles once before and like fell in love with it. And when I moved here, I got a job waiting tables, which I'd done my whole life through. high school and through college. And I was like, okay, this is the last time I'm going to do this. Even though I really enjoyed it, this is the last time I wanted to get a job. And I kind of got my bearings.

What was the restaurant? It was Chaya Brazzaree. And so I got a job there. And I met a producer, and he said, my wife and I bought this little bungalow in Venice. And they would be coming in all the time. So we came very friendly. And he said, would you help us with it? And like we wanted to really start with just one space.

And so we worked on their living room and they loved it. And then we ended up working on the dining room. And then I ended up doing the whole entire house. And it was maybe, you know, like 2,000 square feet. It was, you know, it was really small. It was so charming and cute. And I was getting up every morning. I was going to the flea market because they had a budget.

and I was, get like five in the morning. You have to get there very early. I have my flashlight and looking for all the treasures because I had great training for my mom and, you know, for my childhood. And, you know, furnished the house. And, you know, it was really being thoughtful about kind of, you know, where to spend the money and the house turned out great. And then I got another job from somebody seeing that home.

And so I started my own business. Like I didn't really, I was going to work for an architecture. or design firm when I came to Los Angeles. And it just kind of happened where I was like, okay, I now have a business. Would you go to the Rose Bowl? Is that typically? Yeah, I would go to Rose Bowl. I go to Pasadena City College.

I would go to Long Beach was another really good one. And like every weekend, there is a flea market in different places. And then in between that, like there used to be so many cool shops in L.A. And they're just not here anymore. Unfortunately, just driving down the street, there would be, I always stop. I was always stopping in to all the, you know, this lighting store, this cool store that specializes in mid-century or another specializes in deco and just, you know, was loving, just learning and seeing all these different shops. So I was doing the residential projects and then I was getting also some like small commercial projects. And I did Ben Stiller's office, which is really fun.

and from there probably after, say, the Avalon and, you know, a mix of residential and hospitality, I got a call from Bergdorf Goodman, which was like, I was like, what? I was so excited. And I actually just had a book that came out called Modern Glamour. And she was like, we're huge fans, and we have a restaurant that's on, you know, the top floor. We would love, you know, to consider you to do the restaurant. And I was thinking, like, I can't believe it because, like, you think they would have somebody from New York do the design. Yeah.

And so we did, like, a presentation. We ended up getting that project, which was, like, so exciting. And it still looks. I mean, that was probably, it's been 12 years. And it still looks the same. Like, they've done an incredible job at maintaining it. It looks perfect. Right.

It was a really big success. and then maybe like a year later, Linda and the president called and they said, you know, we would love for you to have a shop to sell some of your creations. And I was thinking, like I really hadn't designed. Like I'm not, I don't have product. And I was thinking, you know, I'm always up for an incredible challenge. And so I was thinking, you know, I have designed things for our projects and came back to them and like, let's do it.

And we created about 20 products, and they were small. They were more like accessories and sculpture and bowls, and it crossed over all this different materialities and opened my first kind of like retail and kind of accessories, objects, product. And how was that? It was great. You know, it was a challenge. Like, I had no idea what, like, you know,

or they were like, well, what is your resale? Or what is, like, it was like a full new business for me. But they were a great partner, you know, really supportive, which was amazing. Because you need that. Like when you're making these big steps into different feel, you need like a great partner that, you know, you can lean on. How are you able to continue spinning all the different plates?

Yeah, that's true. I do spend a lot of plates. You know, I have a great team. Yeah. I have an incredible, like, family that supports me. And I have a lot of stamina. and I always have my kind of workout is really important to me, and it keeps me focused. It's kind of my meditation.

You do it in the morning when you wake up? I do it in the morning. I get up super early. I get up at five, and I have like a few minutes to myself, and then I work out for probably like an hour and a half. and I'll do also like a sauna and things like that. And it's just my kind of active meditation. And then I've always taken my kids to school, like super involved, wake them up in the morning and, you know, spend time.

They're always like in my bathroom. And then I go to the studio. I'm in my studio all day, like every day. And I love it. I really love the mentorship and the creative energy that's there. and it's really important to me to have everyone there because that's where the magic happens is being together and feeling one's energy.

And then at one o'clock every day, I leave and I go do another workout. What's the afternoon workout? After workout, afternoon, my afternoon delight is a Pilate session, or I'll do a like kind of deep breathing and stretch, or I'll do like a weight training. So it just depends on what day it is.

And I feel so good and so revitalized after that. And I just go in back to the studio and I just have so much energy and feel refreshed. And I really like to just be quiet. Like sometimes, like, I won't listen to music. I just want to, like, be in the moment. And it's like this cleanse for me. So much of today's life happens on the web. Squarespace is your home base for building your dream presence in an online world.

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Space makes it easy to create and customize a beautiful website. Visit Squarespace.com slash Tetra and get started today. How much time do you spend traveling versus being home? It's probably, it's more so now, like I didn't travel a ton maybe 15 years ago, but now it's quite often because we have a lot of like global projects. We have a project in Corchival. We're working on an amazing project in Stockholm in Sweden. It's a former culinary school that was built last century next door.

There's a former zoo. And so it's going to be a hotel membership club. And then the former zoo is going to be a music venue. Cool. Yeah, it's really cool, really exciting project. So the travel, definitely. And then I have partnerships, like, different. partnerships with global partners where we do creative direction for and design product.

So that's like really also really fun and exciting. One thing that I just designed that was really incredible is a piano. Cool. Tell me about that. So it's a company in the UK, they're in Cambridge and it's like a four-generation family. And they designed these really amazing pianos and most of the company. and most of them, they're like more of a compact size because a piano takes up like 20% of a room. So, and they're all focused on incredible design and something that's different and unique. So we've actually placed a few of their pianos in our projects.

And so we have this like great relationship. And they were like, we would love to design a piano with you. And it's so exciting. Like, who knew? Are there any projects that you haven't done yet, like a dream project? You know, I don't look into the future so much. Like I like to kind of just like ride the wave and just be open to possibility. But there is one thing that would be so exciting that I would love to do.

And that would be to design the torch for the Los Angeles Olympics. And, you know, I love sports. Like my family, like we're a very sporty family. and we watch it all the time and we're always going to, you know, sporting events. And I love stories of athletes. Like, they're so inspiring and, like, where they came from and the grit and the fortitude

and everything that they got to where they're the best of the best. I think it would be, like, the biggest honor. And there's never been a female that has designed the torch. So that would be something that would be a dream. Cool. Let's put that out into the universe and see what comes back. When you're going to a place you haven't been before, a new country, a new city, and you want to check out all of the handcrafted stuff and the unusual

specific stuff, how would you find the best resources in a place you haven't been before? Just research and word of mouth and just being open and curious and really understanding kind of when you go to a new city, you want to seek out and see something. Like, I love falling in love with things and when I see something new, like just, having that feeling and that emotion is so beautiful. So really seeking out all the anomalies that a city has to offer. And I have a lot of like great, you know, friends and dealers and people in the art and design world that, you know, are like-minded. And so calling them like, what is the best restaurant? And, you know, I just launched a substack. And it's called Worcler World. And we actually

cover a lot of travel and sharing a lot of the different locations that I go to. And you know, and also it has a design lens, obviously, and it's fashion and it's art and it's anything that is creative and beautiful. And I love educating my community and sharing my knowledge and hearing from everyone and Instagram, which I love, which is a very, like,

kind of quick little nibble of information. Like, this is something that somebody can actually take away and do something with and be enlightened. When did you first start posting on Instagram? right when it came out. And, you know, we were all like kind of uncertain. I was like, actually, it's really cool and interesting.

And I'm all about doing something different. So when Instagram came out, I was excited. So we just jumped on the bandwagon. And I had an in-house PR director at the time. So we just started telling stories of our studio and different projects that I've been inspired by in my career and different artist and now we really tell stories of different projects and we also try and give a little bit of inspiration in each one of the post. Cool. What are your favorite hotels in New York? I stay at the Crosby generally, which I really love and it's an intimate hotel and it's

really comfortable and talk about acoustics like the rooms because they're all padded. Like the rooms are all upholstered. Cool. And it has like, the floor to ceiling windows, and I just love, like, the natural light. Nice. And it goes across, like, the width of the room. I mean, yeah, I generally stay there. Favorite hotel in London? In London, I mean, a chill-turned firehouse.

Because it's just so good. Did it get rebuilt? They're working on it now. It's such a great hotel, and the rooms are so comfortable, and the bathrooms are, it has everything you need. And there's, like, just, like, there's a sense of luxury. Like, they're a little more paired. down, but like the detailing and the millwork and the doors and just did just such a fantastic job

there. I would say a hotel that I just stayed in that I absolutely love was at hem and Stockholm. And it's comprised of these two townhomes. There was one at the beginning when they first did the design and every room is different. And it's so Swedish. And you feel like you're going into, to your aunt's home that has like the best taste. And she's an amazing chef. And there's cool music. And there's a piano. And the bars are these bars that you can go to and serve yourself.

And you go into the kitchen and there's food out. And then it's an open kitchen. And the rooms, like I love sometimes when I know the rooms are actually designed differently in a hotel. I always request to stay and I move rooms because I want to experience and just, you know, this is like what I do. Yeah. And there were so many.

many good takeaways there. I just, I absolutely loved it. Where do you stay in Paris? Paris. I stay at the Bristol because it's so Parisian. I mean, it's such the opposite of what at hem is. Yeah. You know, it's like everything at hem is about, you know, everything is open and the back of house is front of house. And at the Bristol, the back of house is back of house. And everything, you just see the staff. They're there for service. And it's very Parisian and old school, and the service is unbelievable. And yeah, it's a great hotel. How about Milan? Milan.

I stay at the Portrait Milano, which is a fairly kind of a new hotel. And it's in this former courtyard. And the rooms are really so melanes. They were designed by the Farragamo family. and the food and beverage there is great and it's very luxurious, but it's also very Melanese, and it's in like an amazing part of town where you can just kind of walk around and shop. It's in that main area. But hotels are really, like, I love designing residential projects. They're very different than hospitality because you get so intimate and close with

your clients. You know, they become, you know, your friend and common. and you're doing something together that is so personal to them and you're learning from one another. A hotel, though, is like so sexy and generous and you're working with such a big team. And there's so many voices and it's kind of coming together and honing in on what the dialogue is and all the different nuances and all the programming. And it all has to kind of come together with many different people. And there's nothing better to, like, go visit, like, one of the hotels. And you see the same people coming back and enjoying the space. In a place like Calneva, where there may be some specific, let's say, wallpaper or carpet or upholstery, and it's not being made anymore, might you manufacture it based on the old design to keep this style of what it was?

Yeah. So we'll, for example, in the Calneva, a project. Like, we went to a sense of nostalgia. So I was just in Milan and I went to this dealer that has a lot of, like, vintage wall coverings. And they're from the 70s and they're really quite spectacular. And so we're using those as the kind of jumping off point. And some of them, they actually have some dead stock where it's like, I want to actually use that wall covering in a project. And in a room that has four walls, there might be four different wall coverings in there. It actually makes it much cooler and more interesting. And yes, we 100% will take something that

we designed that's inspired by something that is vintage or historic. And we have a lot of different mills and people that we work with. And we worked on this hotel in Austin. And it's a proper hotel and we, one of the food and beverage outlets was Mediterranean and I was in Portugal and I went to a really interesting tile store that had a lot of vintage tile. And I do this when I go to cities, I seek out kind of these unusual workshops and kind of family-owned businesses that seem like they have something unique. And so I went in and they had all these really gorgeous tiles that were from, you know, anywhere from the 30s to the 80s. And so, maybe some of the tiles, there was 30, there was like 50. So I created this huge wall in the restaurant

that is like this mosaic of all these interesting tiles. And it just like looks. It has so much soul because this was a new construction. And so it really just brings all this like kind of authenticity and soul to the project. And it's quite dynamic. How did the materials you pick change the acoustics of a room? Sound is such an important part of a space. And, having, you know, we'll design a restaurant. We want to make sure people can have great conversation and it's not really echoy. So we'll use different, you know, acoustical panel that you actually don't even see and then you can skin over that. A lot of times we actually put felt underneath the dining tables, which help. Like we're doing a restaurant in Calneva that has like a stone marble floor.

It's two pattern. It's this really beautiful checkerboard. And we have some tile on the wall. There's a big open kitchen with all this really beautiful ceramic tile. And we're being very thoughtful about the upholstery that we're using and where we can put this acoustical material. So you said you put felt under the table, meaning the bottom of the table? The underside of the table. What a cool idea. Yeah. That's great. And a lot of, if you, next time you go to a restaurant, you'll see, like, they do put this under there. Not all, but adding felt to the underside really helps with the acoustics. It's a great kind of trick of the trade. Yeah, I'm going to apply that when I get home.

Let's say a room is very long. Are there things you can do to make it feel less uncomfortably long? I love strange-shaped rooms. I really do. And, you know, if we have a room that is quite long, like we might add portals to create like an enfilade or a new rhythm in the space, adding windows, adding columns, which then could create height in a space, adding a space within a space is also quite interesting.

Use of mirror also expands a space and the reflection of a window. Like there are so many different tricks and interesting things that you can do with material. Do you ever add steps? Yes. We actually, we had a project that we did in Manhattan and the windows were quite large, but they actually sat up maybe 32 inches off the finished floor. And so the clients really wanted to enjoy the view. So we actually created a stepped platform where the sitting area was so then they could enjoy the view.

And it just really made the space so much more dynamic and interesting. So love playing with volumes and creating spaces that really complement each other, but also have this interesting tension because you want to, in spaces, you want to have a sense of discovery where you're not giving it away and that's why when you go to an environment where it all feels the same,

it's kind of one note. It's almost like a song. It's just kind of the same. You want to surprise your audience and have a sense of discovery and an interesting journey. What about things that maybe were once in style and have gone out of style

like a sunken living room? Is that something that you would decide to put in, or is it something you would find and decide to keep? It would be both. Like, I would love to find a house that had a sunken living room. Yeah. Because I just love that kind of historic vibe. But we have planned, like, a home that we did in Los Angeles. Actually, it was a pool house.

The clients entertained quite often. And so we wanted to have the visibility on the inside of the inside of the house. the pool house right out to like unobstructed view to the pool and all the landscaping that was outside. So we actually did a sunken lounge space and it was really quite nice. But we also too have been putting in sunken bars and restaurants and bars because there's something nice. If you have a small space and you have a sunken bar, you are actually making the space feel larger because the bar is more at like almost like a dining height. How many steps down would the more be?

Two. You know, it depends. It could be, you know, it can be three steps down. It just depends on how much. And would you access it from all directions? On the sides. It's like so nice because then you're at a lower level and it doesn't cut the room off. Tell me about ceilings.

Ceilings are such an important part of a space. And a lot of people forget them. And whether it has lighting, whether there are some mechanical, systems, like we're really like to hide everything. And then sometimes, if you have to have to see them, sometimes they're on the ceiling, sometimes they're on the wall, is using something that is historic, that feels like it's speaking to the architecture of the building. And I love timber on a ceiling. I love putting plaster unexpected. One thing I love doing is say we plaster a wall and like a really beautiful like golden rod color, I love to bring it up on the ceiling.

And it just really adds to like the space and makes it feel really warm and kind of womb-like. Where do you and don't you use skylights? Skylights are never off limits in any room. Like they're open to closets, bathrooms, to any space. I mean, they're so beautiful. Like I would not say like I just, I'm. open to skylights. Are there anything like skylights that you can do in multi-story buildings to get natural light to come through the building? Yeah, I mean, you can create, like we've done where we've created like a shaft, like at a staircase where you have like some incredible specimen, which is really nice and also creating like windows. And the Calneva project we're doing now,

we have like a three-story stairwell that has floor to ceiling windows on one side. And we took the rhythm of the mullions and we created this really great pattern of this grid that just is all encompassing. And now it just feels like a very organized space that has such an attitude. Yeah. And then all this natural light coming in. And then we're actually using a horizontal screen. So that will play with the light that's coming in and creating all this great dynamic diagonal lighting that will come in on certain times of the day.

If you're restoring a home from, let's say, the 1950s, and now we live much more in the kitchen than we used to maybe in the 1950s, might you rethink the spaces or grow the kitchen, or would you stick to the old footprint? I would stick to the old footprint in some respects and maybe make it a little larger. sometimes people make the mistakes as you buy a home where the architecture is refined and the scale is refined and then people come in and make these big moves and it throws the scale off like scale is such an important part of design and so I like to really stay like within the proportion and if you have like delicate original windows that are from classic architecture and you're going to put new doors in like they said speak the same language and it's something. It's, like oddly, like seat heights have tended to get much taller, and it really kind of like truncates

a room, like things that are just more grounded. Like seed heights on vintage furniture are very low. There may be like a seat height on a soap is like, you know, 15 inches. And now it's like 23. Wow. So plates also, another thing. You go, you know, plates that you buy at the flea market, a dinner plate is like 10 inches and now they're like 14. So the scale is like getting blown out of proportion. It's so important to honor the original scale. Do you find that the clients who come to you exist within certain archetypes? No.

My clients are all over the place. You know, they come from different backgrounds. They do different types of jobs. Like I wouldn't necessarily say they're all over the place. creative. They want something that is different and they generally are somewhat of a of a collector. And I love when they have something that is of super interest to them that I know nothing about. How do rooms change when people are in them? Imagine a dining room and you have chairs and you have,

a table, and it just makes a room come alive. When I design a space and I'm curating, like I always say, like, imagine, like, all the elements in the room are people, and they're all very different, but they have, like, this great connection and these great conversations with one another. It's interesting you brought up dining room. For a long time, I didn't like dining rooms, but I think it's for that reason. It feels like when there aren't people in it, it's like dead space. It's so true, I know.

It's depressing. That's why when we design homes for clients, like they're generally now, not these, like, confined rooms, like, they're kind of open to another space because people use them differently. Sometimes people work at them. Sometimes they eat, you know, one meal a day at them. Sometimes they just use them for entertaining. So we try to make them where there are these, like, open rooms where you can, because it's square footage.

It should be a space that you can enjoy. Yeah. So having them have other purposes, maybe there's a bar in there. Maybe there's some sort of access to outside that you can enjoy, you know, out in the exterior garden. And a dining room is, I totally agree. It's like this kind of awkward room that you kind of sometimes just like pass by. Yeah.

But they come alive with people. I mean, any space comes alive with people. And I, again, love watching people interact on spaces. I haven't thought about it before, but I think it's the empty change. because the table itself probably isn't depressing. It's all of the empty chairs. That's why sometimes it's good to not use the same chair because it's just like repetition that looks a little just boring.

And so doing things with like different chairs and bringing a different tension and different periods of chairs in a space to make it feel more dynamic and actually a little more interesting. I visited a friend's design store. design studio the other day, a big table that was like a dining table, bigger than a dining table, and it had stools with different colored seats, and they were all pushed under the table. So you could still stand anywhere at the table, but if you wanted to sit down, you could pull out a stool,

and that wasn't depressing at all. Yeah, it's true. And you can have, like, in our kitchen at home, we have a, it's like a large table and it has two benches. and it's always organized. That's the other thing is there's like chairs in different ways. And it does. It's true.

It doesn't feel empty. Yeah. You're so right. How much do you curate what happens outside of the windows? So, I mean, you know, a lot of times, you know, we work with these great landscape architect. Sometimes it's perfect. Like a house is actually built around some incredible specimen.

Or you have the ocean. Or you have like a city view and you have a brick building. And it's like, how are you. going to incorporate that brick building into that space. And so what's outside the window is really important, how the light comes in, how the light affects color. And we did a space in this New York townhouse. And the building next door was like a red brick. So that color is going to kind permeate in the window. So doing something that's warm we did on the inside. But then we actually contrasted it with a very cool colored rug and it just created this interesting tension.

How much can you tell about how a space is going to feel before you live in it? How a rendering is different than the experience of living in it? It is different for sure. And it goes back to even seeing a photo of a, you know, a dealer sends me a photo of some furniture. and then I go visit them in Paris. And I was just like, oh, my God, it did not come across. It's incredible. And so I really like to encourage clients and myself and my team.

And when we are working on projects, is going to the site. Because that really also influences, like, decisions that are made. Sometimes decisions are made on the fly, like, this is not working. I think we have to pivot here and do something different. So keeping it really fluid. but a space, you can get a general idea from a rendering. And now, actually, with AI, we're putting together little short films on how you can actually, you know, walk through the house, but also how, you know, you can really get a sense of feeling.

And that's what's amazing about new technology, which I'm always about evolving and doing new things. And we've been using AI for quite some time. And so giving the client as many visuals that they can feel the space. so then they can be part of the process and make decisions that they feel they're connected to and that they can see themselves living with. Tell me about natural materials versus high-tech materials. Well, I love anything natural for me. Like, I really love materials that are honest.

And if it is steel and I love steel, it's like an honest material. I don't particularly like things that they're a little, like, maybe too shiny and new, because I like everything to feel like it has, like, a bit of soul. You know, even if it's like a mirror, I love it where it has like some kind of cast materiality feeling to it. It just has a nice richness. Tell me the most beautiful places you've ever been. The most beautiful places have been mother. nature because it's always surprising you and it's always kind of evolving. I mean, it's really magic. I mean, it could be going to a stoneyard, which is like one of my favorite things to do

or Corey and just seeing just the scale and all the uniqueness in the world. Most beautiful homes you've been in. Most beautiful homes, I would say Doris Duke's home in Honolulu. Like, that is just insane. Is it still like she lived in it? Yes, yes. And I went like five years ago. I've been a couple times.

But it was really like the innovation that was there and the curation and the materiality and like just what she did to bring all of that inspiration from Morocco. and even like I remember the glass partitions go down into the, you know, subterranean, which is like for that time when that house was built is like really quite spectacular. But her closet and the bedrooms and the lounge areas, and she was such an amazing entertainer and just the site and the dialogue with the home and the positioning or the ocean, you know, it's always in my memory. And it's very decadent.

You know, it's a very decadent home. There was a lot of color. And then I would say I was just in Venice in Italy, and I went to, and I've been many times, but to the Peggy Guggenheim Museum, and that is just unbelievable. I mean, that was her home for many years, and just the collection of art and the rooms and the spaces and the garden and obviously sits on, you know, the canal. It's like extraordinary. So would you say what makes a place great?

Really has more to do with taste than anything else? Taste is really a complicated word. It's such a personal word, and you could learn taste. But I think it's also innate. It is opening yourself up for learning and being curious. Tell me something you believe now that you didn't believe when you were young. That dreams come true. Beautiful.

That's a good one. Like, I honestly never thought, like, in a million years. Like, I would be doing, like, when you're in school and your waiting tables, like, my first job, I was 13 years old. And it came from going to all these places with my mom. And I was like, I want money. Like, I want to buy shit. And my mom didn't have, you know, much of money. And so I remember, because we lived in Myrtle Beach, she was like, okay, well, you guys can babysit.

So we, and this is, like, insane. like we did this, but she was like, okay, you can babysit. So we made these like little business cards. And then we went and like dropped them off at like all the hotels. And like we would get calls. And like a guy would like pick us up at home and take us. I mean, everything was fine. Nothing happened.

But like is that nuts? It was like a different time. Like you think like that's so crazy. But we started doing that and that was actually really fun. That was like kind of my first. and the kids were cute, but I was like, I do not want kids. That was the only time I was ever really around them. Obviously, it changed.

And then I ended up getting a job, like the next summer. Like, I think I was like 14. I think I was actually babysitting when I was 12. But then when I was 13, 14, I got a job at this little cafe that was right on the beach. And I would make like smoothies and milkshakes and hamburgers. And I was like counting money at the end of the day. And I was like really responsive.

and, you know, I was there on time and working, you know, these, like, you know, probably like six-hour shifts. So loved always, just loved working and, like, having my own money that I could do anything I wanted to. So having that kind of, like, that kind of hustle early on is, like never left me. Yeah. And now I have a gallery called side hustle. Like, who would ever think, you know? The dreams they do, they come true. Tetragrammatin is a podcast.

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