Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - M. Night Shyamalan

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

M. Night Shyamalan is a director, screenwriter, and producer. He first gained international acclaim in 1999 for his psychological thriller, The Sixth Sense, which earned six Academy Award nominations, including Best Director and Best Picture. Over the next 24 years, he followed with a series of high-profile films including Unbreakable, The Village, Split, and most recently, Trap. With a distinctive directorial style, Shyamalan is best known for creating suspenseful, contemporary films with supernatural plots and twist endings. His cumulative box office gross exceeds $3.3 billion worldwide.  ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Squarespace https://squarespace.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://drinklmnt.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Athletic Nicotine https://www.athleticnicotine.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter

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Tetragrammaton The system rejecting you is such a blessing, and we never experienced it that way. We experienced it as pain and confirmation that we're not worthy and we don't have merit and all the imposter syndrome things that we all walk around. But how wonderful it has been for me in the rejection of it all throughout the process. And what's left is so beautiful. I was just speaking to the crowd and I was like the moment that everything gets burned off and all of it, the rejection and everything and there's no way to

succeed in the system as you see it, the next thought you have is so beautiful. What's the experience for you watching one of your films with an audience? How is it different than watching it yourself? Well, when I'm making it, I am very much kind of like that little kid that's going, oh, they're going to love that. And that's going to titillate them.

And then they're going to laugh at that. And then they're going to gasp at that. And oh, they're going to think this. And then I'll go this, do this. And then when I'm watching it, to be honest, it's more of a torturous experience because I'm so hyper raw, like a nerve, that anyone rustling, anyone reaching for a drink

in the third row is drinking, let alone going to the bathroom, getting up and going to the bathroom, which would just basically cut me, gut me. So, and whispering and this, all the things that are humanity, the messiness of it, all feels very, you know, painful, you know, very, very painful. And so again, I guess in each one of those,

it just, I'm just so raw. Like when I'm directing and when I'm watching a movie, I'm very open. So you, people always laugh at me when I'm at watching something being shot when I'm there, cause my body's reacting and so I'm watching a movie, I'm very open. So people always laugh at me when I'm watching something being shot because my body's reacting. I'm making faces and I'm reacting. I'm not distant from it. I'm not an observer. I'm totally connected in an empirical core.

And the same thing happens in the movie. But when I'm watching my movie with an audience, it's just too sensitive. Are you ever surprised by reactions? Always. Yeah, always. They have a intuitive understanding of the bone structure of a story. It just happens, they know it immediately. They understand it and what it thinks it's doing

and when they reject something, it's related to this bone structure thing. And I tend to think of it as a kind of a pyramid of elements. And the first element is the bone structure of a story. And we might get excited about level four of the pyramid and going, oh, whoa, we're going to do this thing all at the beach, and it's going to do this, and I can do this cinema.

You're talking about level four. You didn't do level one of the pyramid yet, which is the structure. Then if you make that error, it's a humility thing, first of all, to start at the bone structure, the skeleton of it. Describe the bone structure. So the bone structure, so guy meets girl,

falls in love, she's with somebody else. The bone structure, guy gets girl, you know, it falls in love, she's with somebody else, you know, the bone structure, guy gets, you know, and then ultimately- Would the bone structure happen in one page? The bone structure is, you know, when someone says, oh, well, that scene was slow, right, when they say something like that, that means they don't know where they are in the story.

That's what slow means. I don't know where I am in the story. And that's- So it doesn't have to do with the scene itself. No. It has to't know where I am in the story. And that's what- So it doesn't have to do with the scene itself. No. It has to do with where we are in the story. Yeah. And whether we're advancing the story in that moment.

Yeah, because they intuitively, they're geniuses at understanding this. And so they're, and that's all they see. They like see an X-ray vision of the story past the beautiful production design, past everything, past the casting, everything, and they're just feeling this skeleton of the thing. So interesting. It is.

I never heard it described this way before, so it's really fascinating. What ends up happening is you as an author can become resentful of this if you don't understand it. So you find that you can have disdain for the audience, which is, I did level four, five, six, and seven, and eight so well, you idiots. And they're like, you don't get to do that.

Where's level one? And it's a fascinating thing. It's because we're always in the present and we're always in the past and we're always in the future. As they're watching a story, they can't help when the, you know, if you introduce a kind of a war hero coming home to a mafia family and he's the innocent, you know, and he's introducing his girlfriend to this family, you know, we're with the innocent learning

about the family, but already something has happened, which is there's one family member that's not in the business. So the story structure has begun in the Godfather. And so it's beginning. And then ultimately he will be the biggest and greatest Godfather. It's just satisfying, incredible. Even if I'm not aware,

I'm so titillated by the bone structure of it. And so like in that example, which I love the Godfather, they did everything on the pyramid, but they, uh, Mario Pusso started us with the skeleton, you know, which is the innocent that becomes powerful and dark and don't mess with me. Don't, you know, don't push me too far because I'll, I'll become this thing. So now based on that, do you always start with the bone structure? Wow. So you can't think your way.

I mean, a lot of executives do believe you can, you know? And for me, I don't want to think my way to it. So I have to kind of open up to the subconscious and the universe that it should just fall into place. Like the last movie, it's kind of a dad and a daughter going to a concert. They realize there's a trap for a serial killer and then you let in that he's the serial killer, the father.

Then I'm like, the bone structure starts taking off of like, and it's a beautiful bone structure for me because it's like the audience is like now in the shoes of the antagonist and now where does that go? Because now we have a new bone structure. So it's for me the excitement is honoring what I said to you, the pyramid, and inventing new bone structure. So the bone structure, it's not familiar

because bone structures are so similar from movie to movie. You're not saying that. I'm not saying that, but there's an inevitability of the audience trying to- Make sense of it. Yeah, make sense of where they are in the story. And if they give up and now they're detached, that's a bad thing.

You want that one-to-one with the character, that sinus curve, that we're in sync with the character, you could take it anywhere, but underneath it. So some people, for example, pick any movie in the old days. For example, the bone structure of the exorcist is so interesting.

You start out with in Iraq and then you come to a little girl's room in Georgetown and then you build it slowly. Something's wrong. Something's wrong in the house. Something's wrong with the little girl. And the mom's an actress and totally ill-equipped to handle this, but she's a mom and we'll fight. And then the story of the priests and then an older priest who's fought the devil and

then a younger one who doesn't quite believe. And it's again set up for beautiful bone structure to happen there, you can feel it growing. And yet you and I have never seen that before. But it's so strong, it knows itself. And then even at the ending of the exorcist of how he thwarts it and gets the girl to save the girl is so unexpected and beautiful,

but inevitable from the bone structure. So do you say if the film knows itself, then the audience can get it? That's so, you're getting very close to this sublime thing that we're dancing around, that there is this, it's like whatever the veining on a leaf or something in nature that's just perfect and yet each leaf is different.

The audience feels it. In those two examples that I gave of the exorcist and godfather, and you can feel that it was wow, I've never felt that bone structure before and yet it's perfect, you know? And it just moves and I sometimes describe it as you're in a relationship with this story.

And so you can yell at it, you can talk over it, you can manhandle it, but that's not a healthy relationship. It's talking back to you. And I believe maybe the end result of whether the relationship was a good relationship is in the bone structure. Ultimately, did you listen or did you jam it? How different is your understanding of this now versus when you made whatever your very first project was? It was more intuitive when I started in my 20s. I couldn't articulate anything we're talking about,

but I was just following it. I would sit and I would know the difference between artifice, emotional artifice, from me. Not necessarily even the piece of art. And the connection to everything. I could feel that. And then, as always, experience helps you up to a certain point and then becomes your enemy

because it's limiting. Because it's not always the same. It's, yeah. So sometimes we think because it happened in the past, well that's how it is. Yeah. But it was that time, it may not be this next time. Yes, yes.

That's how you mean it's a limitation, yes. I do, I do. Sometimes I think, why does the songwriters who wrote the greatest songs of all time in their 20s can't do it in their 40s and 50s and 60s? What is that? And it's probably, now we're gonna get really philosophical, but are falling in love with the illusion

that is this world, this society, and that we want at it. And now it's, we're no longer really next to the open door anymore. It does feel like as soon as we think we know more than we do, things get dangerous. Mm-hmm. Not in a good way. Yeah. Maybe we're defining ourselves.

We're putting ourselves in concrete, in the illusion. Yes. This is us. In so many forms of this, we talked about just now we referenced songwriters, but it could be what they call the Oscar curse or anything where you've defined yourself. Yeah. You're no longer. The joy, this goes full circle to what we talked about. you know, what they call the Oscar curse or anything where you've defined yourself

and you're no longer. The joy, this kind of goes full circle to what we talked about. So the joy of rejection is you never fall in love with the illusion and you don't have that danger. So you're doing beautiful things. So a lot of us have done it on the fringe, you know, from the outside.

And it's a gift because the illusion is rejecting you. Would you say all of your work is biographical? Emotionally, yeah. Yeah, it's wherever I am because I've initiated most of them myself and I would say 85% of them are original stories that just came from my head. So they're just where I am. For example, the thing I'm writing now is romance.

And I want it. I feel that way right now, maybe because it's such a cynical time that I want it. I wanna believe in something as pure and innocent as that. a cynical time that I want it. I want to believe in something as pure and innocent as that, you know? Yeah. And maybe others do too. I've trusted that whatever I'm going through,

someone else is going through and feeling these things. Yeah. I think our best chance is if it's true to us, it's likely to be true to someone else. Yes. Other than, well, this isn't really true to me, but this is how other people feel. It's impossible to know that.

Yes, yeah, the analytics of that. I have, just being totally transparent, we're here, and I have a tough time being in Los Angeles. Maybe because it's the site of commodization of art, because it's the site of commodization of art and the discipline, the striving for systemization of it and repetition of it, and I get it. If you have to put out a certain amount of albums, a certain amount of movies every single year,

you can't just wait for Michael Jordan. You have to make facsimiles of that. But the idea to think everything is supposed to be a facsimile is a dangerous idea. It's an attempt to raise the floor. And I get that. If you're here and you need to do that, and I get that, but my job,

and that's what I think living 2,000 miles away has afforded me, is a perspective of the illusion and the resistance of wanting to master the system, you know, to win by it. Yeah. You seem to exist well outside of the system and it's a beautiful thing to see. There are not so many people who have been able to do that. You know, something just happened before I came here,

which was super positive and something I wanted to happen and is happening and it appears to be going really, really well. And I was driving over here and I'm not good at this. The system saying, yeah, you know, great, take a seat at the table. I don't even know how to be right now. Whereas I'm so built for, we don't think that's gonna work.

Oh yeah. I'll show you. Yeah, love it. Love it, right? And so I love that. Then I'm like, Yeah, I love it. Yeah. Love it, right? And so I love that. Then I'm like, oh, I'm fired. I can't wait to get to work, let's go. So in some ways, if it's accepted too soon,

maybe there's a feeling of you haven't gone far enough? I hope it's not rebellion. I think that's what you're referencing. I don't know. I hope not. Yeah. It could be. That's what you're referencing. I don't know.

I hope not. Yeah. It could be. I just felt a little bit untethered right now because of that acceptance. Getting the morsels from the illusion has been enough. And ironically, as I look back now in 30 years, and my kids are in their 20s, I've been married for 31 years, I've made 17 movies, I wouldn't want it any other way.

And I'm here, and I feel like I could go for a long, long, long time. I can't keep up with the ideas in my head. But you don't wanna get used to, rebellion for rebellion's sake, you know. I'm trying to provoke, and there's amazing artists and stuff that do that. It's just the provocation.

There was a musician that said something to me once, this musician, everybody knows, and he said something very provocative to me, and I said, hey man, what do you want me to do with that statement, you know? But I get how he is. He's provoking because he doesn't want a floor. He almost wants me to reject him in that moment and get the electricity going.

Yeah. A challenge. Yeah. A challenge. So much of today's life happens on the web. Squarespace is your home base for building your dream presence in an online world. Designing a website is easy, using one of Squarespace's best-in-class templates. With the built-in style kit, you can change fonts, imagery, margins, and menus, so your

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The Squarespace app helps you run your business from anywhere. Track inventory and connect with customers while you're on the go. Whether you're just starting out or already managing a successful brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create and customize a beautiful website. Visit squarespace.com slash tetra and get started today. Tell me about living in Philadelphia. Is that where you grew up? It is. It is. I live outside Philly.

We live about 45 minutes outside Philly, but you know, go there all the time for date nights and all that stuff. So in a way you didn't choose it. You were essentially born into your life in Philly. You grew up in it. Yeah. And I think- And you stayed. So the choice you made was not to leave.

Yes. Because you could also do what you do anywhere other than here and still be the outsider. Yes, yes. Well, it represents so many things. I think it represents why my dad and mom, well, my dad particularly when he came from India said, we're going to Philadelphia,

that's where they created everything, the Declaration of Independence. That's in his mind, that was America. The heart of the American idea. Idea, so when he's leaving his home in India and the first of his family to do that, he's going towards something, an ideal that you can become anything.

There's anything is available to you. And he was right. And my advantage was being born to the parents that believed in that, and then being in the United States in Philadelphia. So it feels very beautiful to be there. And that mixture of having been born in Pondicherry, India, 10,000 miles away and living outside Philly

and telling stories to everybody in between, it feels right. Yeah. Do you have a particular group of people that you tend to work with? This is an interesting subject because why the songwriter can't write their song and, you know, or why that artist chose to provoke me

is related. Is comfort the enemy of the artist? And I, again, it's a calibration inside. So I tend to work with new people. And not as like, hey, you know, hey, Rick, we're not going to work together again. It's a feeling. I'm totally open to working with you again

if we did one movie, but I'm way open as well to finding someone brand new. I'm totally open to working with you again if we did one movie, but I'm way open as well to finding someone brand new. So I've, you know, and I don't mind hiring inexperienced people, people that have only done a small movie and they haven't done a big movie. Well, come and do the score for my film. You live in Iceland, you only done one small thing.

Or come and edit my movie. I know you even haven't edited a movie yet. You know, that- But you see something in their work, enough of a spark where you know, this is someone I want to collaborate with. Exactly. I'm excited to collaborate with you.

Yeah, they're closer to the open door than I am. Yeah. And so they're not coming to me. They think that they're coming to me and learning from me, but I'm actually learning from them. Understood. It's beautiful. When a story comes, does the arc of the story come

or does that element, like maybe a scene? Tell me what comes to you first that eventually becomes a movie. Yeah, I think it was David Lynch that talked about this concept, which is there's a Rosetta Stone idea in there. And in that, whatever it is, a moment, a scene, a line, a feeling of a character.

But it could be a line. Anything. It could be anything. And that Rosetta Stone idea has the answers to everything. And then it shoots out from there. I pictured this man named Rick, he lives here, and oh, why did he end up like that? Boom, and it goes, and then the plot comes.

Ideally, plot comes from character. It evolves, like oh, he's having trouble with his wife in Six Sands, he's having trouble talking to his wife. Well, what's wrong, what's wrong? Why can't he connect with his wife? Why can't he connect with his wife? Why can't he connect with his wife? Huh can't he connect with his wife? Why can't he connect with his wife? And then you come up with the plot.

That's actually how it happened in that movie. Interesting, so the character comes first. I think a lot of times. For you. For me, yeah, inside out. And there's other ways to do it. You can go, hey, we're making a sequel. It has Tom Cruise. It has to have this much action.

And then, okay, let's figure out what the movie is. You can do it that way. I haven't done it that way. But I would I would bet even those individuals that are excellent at that do it this way as well. And they can just take a deep breath and go, OK, put aside the absolutes for a second. Let me think of a story. And then they think of a character in a spy thing and then it blooms. And then it's it's well written and it goes and then it connects to these other things.

From the time that you have that first idea until you have a full vision of a movie, what period of time is that? When you say full vision, you mean in my head or you mean a finished movie? Not a finished movie. What to where you feel like we're ready to start making the movie.

Yeah, it's in phases. And so I'm a writer first, that's it. I don't think with that visual mind. So you'd say you were writer first and a director second. Correct. That's interesting. Yeah, and then the director's trying to figure out why the writer wrote it the way he wrote it.

Yes. As a writer, you're writing the story true to the story and then as the director, you don't change anything that the writer wrote because it's a better shot or a better film. The director's job is to execute the writer's work. Yeah, why does that scene work? Why did the writer start it when that character said that?

And why did he not talk about the other thing that's in the room? Why didn't they, huh, well, he's denying it. Oh, how do I show that? He's denying the fact that the body is sitting there. You know, this is great. I can have it out of focus. Then you see a visual way to depict what the writer

did by what he wrote, meaning me, what I wrote or what I didn't write. Yeah. How different are those hats, your writer's hat and your director's hat? They're different. You know, and in this one there, obviously, because the writer-directors, there's harmony there.

And I'm that way when I'm adapting, even when I'm writing someone else's like on television, when I did Servant, if someone else wrote the scripts, I honor it. I don't try to one-up it. I'm trying to create resonance from what they wrote. Do you ever look back on, when's the last time you saw Sixth Sense, for example? They had a, I think like a charity screening of it

for it's 25 years or something like that. And I got to see it with my kids and one of them hadn't seen it, you know, the little one. When you watched it then, did you have any new insight into the film that you didn't have when you made it? You know, this is touching another thing. Maybe this is a tangent, so it may not be too productive, but, you know, some directors go and they go back and they change their movie after 20 years

and re-release it, right? I'm going to remix it. I'm going to add these things. I'm going to put in great CGI and also, and every single time they're ruining it, every single time. I'm going to remix it. I'm going to add these things. I'm going to put in great CGI and also, and every single time they're ruining it. Every single time. There is just a fugue state that we get into, a mastery of this language that only exists at that time,

as the person that you are at that moment. Yes. So I'm watching it in some ways like when you're watching Sixth Sense, I'm watching a 28- ways like when you're watching six cents. I'm watching a 28 year old version of myself, you know 27 28 and 25 when I wrote, you know mid to late 20s version of myself and Him at the door to the universe not me now in my 50s. Yeah It's a it's a wondrous thing.

I'm about to show my kids my very, very first movie that I did when I was 21, which I bought and I had and I just restored it. And it's, you know. Restored it but didn't change it. No. I mean, like, you know. Technically brought it up to today. Technically, literally technically, you know, made sure that it was colored and, you know,

here it is so they can present it. And I was watching it with the color timer and I was dazzled at this. Like it's, in my opinion, terrible, right? Empirically terrible. But yet the kid, the 21 year old, and the time that it was, 1993, was so different. It's like another time period,

like the way that I thought you could talk that earnestly and be that sentimental and it was, that was okay. That was cool. I was like, man, that kid, I admire his naivete and his innocence, wanna protect, when I see it. Yeah. How much has your approach changed over the years, from then to now?

Strangely, similar. I mean, just a creature of habit. Yeah. I mean, very similar, like this next movie I'm doing. It'll have the same cadence. There's this weird thing that I had when we say cadence, like Sixth Sense, you might look at the back of a Blu-ray and see this slightly differently, but this is the truth.

The Sixth Sense is 107 minutes, Unbreakable is 107 minutes, Signs is 107 minutes, The Village is 107 minutes, and how's that possible? And that was unintentional? Unintended. That'sal? Unintentional. That's unbelievable. Unintentional. And I think that's something again

with the veining of the leaves and the thinking about nature and how we are that maybe math and rhythm and it's more related, what we think of as art and science or math is more related than we think. You can do an analysis and going, well, that's the way you hear, the rhythm of the way you talk,

and the way it bounces off the audience, and how much they can take, and how fast they want to hear the way you talk. But it is kind of fascinating. But to answer your question, it's fairly similar. I write the first draftss and I give myself six weeks to do it from the outline, you know. And then the outline begins after I've committed

emotionally to getting a notebook where I fill it with ideas and when that notebook has enough ideas, I go to the outline, you know. And the ideas, random ideas, it's not linear. It's random ideas and contradictory ideas. He lives, he dies. It could be like this, it could be like this. Whatever, whatever, and that process of free association

is important, again, to get to the door. Stop thinking. You do this by yourself. Yes. Do you sit at a desk? Tell me about physically how this happens. That's also a game of psychology, of, you know, I have as many places to sit and write

in my house and in my office as I can. You know, maybe it's me hiding from my demons or whatever, but in that seat, it's coming to me. And maybe that's superstition, like sitting in the same seat during a baseball game every single time because they won the first time. But it could be as rudimentary and primitive as that. But regardless, it's a placebo that works.

So that area, the way I sit and look, and I have a tendency of looking up, that you look up to, and you're emotionally, that's scientific in a sense. Is that where the imagination is? You know, for whatever reason, as human beings, and a doctor could probably explain this better, or someone that knows the brain,

but as you look down, you have darker thoughts, and as you look up, you have lighter thoughts, is why we look up when we're trying to stop crying, you know, and you have different, your brain goes into a different mode. And so I think, you I think when I sit up, there's actually even a reclining position in bed, right before I go to bed,

like I read before I go to bed. Whatever that angle is, that 45 and then my head's against the floor, but I'm looking up at this corner of the ceiling, I can see everything. I get, gosh, I write that down, write that down, write that down. Oh, I have to say this, I have to call Rick, I have to do this, this, and I get see everything. Like I get, gosh, I write that down, write that down, write that down. Oh, I have to say this, I have to call Rick,

I have to do this, this, and I get 20 things. But the rest of the time, it's convoluted. So I'm very open to that. Then also when I'm, for example, in that exact example when I'm reading it, and then often because I'm reading, especially if I'm reading something I'm very inspired by, by an artist that's writing

with inspiration and precision, I will glimpse the answers to the thing that I'm working on, like almost like it's right on the other side of the book, because it's happening simultaneously. And I'm going, oh, I know what to do now. I know that thing. But I'm reading a completely unrelated story. I'm just, it's just that they're reminding me how to get to the door again.

Yes. It's amazing how if you have a question you're trying to solve or a problem you're trying to solve, if you just sort of pay attention to what's going on around you for some reason, more often than not, it seems like the answer comes. Like you're told it. If you believe in the brain waves and things like that, that when we're in flight or fight, you're constricted. And when we're about to fall asleep, like I was just saying, you're just not in that headspace. You see everything. You're free.

You're free. And so it just dances and finds it and grabs it and brings it to you. And that might be that, you know, we're here in your studio and if it's flat or inspired, it's, you know, you can panic. And then now you're in fight or flight, now you're in the wrong wavelengths

to connect with everything. And so it's very important in terms of, and that's why earlier in our careers, it's much easier because the system has completely rejected you. You're not even really connected. You're not considering them. Yeah, you're not considering them, right?

And then later when you've won, and they've anointed you in the system, wow, you can't get to the door anymore. Yeah. Are you superstitious in general? Yes, yes. I'm very much, like you come to our house, I have photos of everything,

photos of every moment in our family, like a church to the life that we've had. Like you come in and it's like, there's the 16th birthday, there's the 16th birthday, there's the 30th birthday, that's the thing, that's the vacation we took. And it sounds normal, but it is a, strangely like a shrine to gratefulness.

And yes, the other day I was walking to my office and all my movie posters are there and I'm walking up the stairs to go to my office to work. And God, I'm so grateful. By the time I got to the top up the stairs to go to my office to work. And God, I'm so grateful. By the time I got to the top of the stairs, I was like, I don't know how to thank whoever for this opportunity. And yet every step along the way,

I felt like I was suffering. Yeah. Do you think that the pictures and the posters are there to remind you of something? Yeah, they are because, you know, when we're... Well, again, they're the things that I hold sacred, which is the family, you know, and our friends, you know, that are in those photos, the curation of a life,

and that it's not passive, and it's you're the artist, and the car wreck can happen to you, and it does happen to all of us, you know? What you do in the next moments, then you use that, using that color, in the most beautiful way. And I guess I just, you know, when I have go through really bad periods,

like when something bad's happening to me or something, I'm not constricted by the fear of the bad thing happening to me. When things are going really well, it's classic, you know, classic feeling and so I feel so good. What would be an example of something bad happening? You know, when I worked for Harvey, you know, that was a tough time when I was a kid, you know.

And it was dark and, you know, I felt no agency. But yet again, in retrospect, getting to spar with the darkest person in our industry as a kid. Makes you strong. Yeah, yeah. L-M-N-T. Element Electrolytes. Have you ever felt dehydrated after an intense workout or a long day in the sun? Do you want to maximize your endurance and feel your best? Add element electrolytes to your daily routine.

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keto-friendly, and great tasting. Minerals are the stuff of life. So visit drinklmnt.com slash tetra and stay salty with Element Electrolyte. LMNT. What's your first memory of going to the movies? One memory has obliterated the others, which was seven and seeing Star Wars. So they were probably movies pre-Star Wars, but Star Wars was so important that it took over. It took over.

I became a different person on that day. It was what I assume people feel with religious zealots, when, you know, what you feel. You felt reborn. Yeah, I felt this is truthful. In some universal answers, this is seven-year-old mindset, this makes sense, I'm in. And I don't mean it in like a video game way,

I meant in a religion way. Yeah, whatever. Cosmic. Yeah, cosmic, yes. Whoever was this, and I didn't know who George, I was seven years old, right? You don't know who any of these people are. Or Joseph Conrad, you don't know anything, but you know whoever did this on an intuitive level

knows the truth. And so that was what I was feeling in the car in the station wagon on the way home. I wanted to feel it again. Yeah. You know? Did you have any of the figures? Oh yeah.

Oh yeah, I still have them. I have them in a little box. The ones I had in seven, eight, they're there. They're sacred. Yeah. What was the next movie experience where it was like game changer for you? Yeah, that would be Raiders.

That would be Raiders. Yeah, and it was also because I can think the universe had me go. We went there, I didn't know what archaeology was. I didn't want to go. I remember that feeling, because I thought it was some science thing and I didn't want to go.

And we- You went with your parents? No, I went with my friend. And my parents dropped us off- From Star Wars, you went with your parents? I did, parents and my sister. But my parents obviously dropped me off at the theater in the Narbort Theater. and we were waiting in line.

It was a huge line outside to see it. We get in there, it's an old theater. I think it's sat, it's at 2,000 or something, or 1,000, it was a huge theater. And old fashioned, you know, with all the ornamentation and everything. Yeah, absolutely beautiful. It's the best.

Yeah, and couldn't sit next to each other because there was no seats available. Terrified. I mean, I was a real shy kid. This was terror on a scale that was, I don't know what to do. And there's no phones, there's nothing, you can't call your parents. My friend says, I sit down and there's a couple next to me and they see I'm very scared. Like I'm very like holding my hands, I'm very scared.

And they're like, you okay? I'm like, I'm okay. You know, and they're like, and they went to get a popcorn and thing and they brought, gave me it. And I was like, thank you. And I was sitting there and then the lights go down and then the mountain starts the logo

and then the logo turns into a real mountain. And again, without knowing, you know, going, whoa, you know. And again, we're talking like two of the masters that were telling you like they're the game changing ones and how lucky was I, you know, to experience that. And then came out of it and it was, I was changed. And I was like, I gotta keep doing this. So then it became play, a version of play to do that.

And then, hey, can I. To like act out the movies? Yeah, yeah. And then you're acting it out, acting it out. And then taking my dad's camera and saying, hey, can I do this? These guys are doing this, how do you do this? And then playing with the camera.

How old were you when you started playing with the camera? At that age, 10 to 12, you know. So taking my dad's camera. And then in that era, the video camera started to come, the VHS and the Betamax cameras. But they were huge and they were plugged into your actual Betamax. So at first, was it 8mm? It was 8mm, yeah. So you started in film.

Yeah, absolutely. That sound was so satisfying as I went went in the camera and you know. And then the play is so wonderful. The thing you did for fun everywhere at 15, then you read a book that there's a guy named Spike Lee and he goes to a school called the Tisch School of the Arts and you can go learn how to become a filmmaker. And I was like, I can do the play thing as a career.

Was there anything else you ever wanted to do besides filmmaking? I mean, I loved athletics, so that was always kind of fantasy of playing tennis or whatever it was. But this was really the sole career thing. It was kind of just, you just know, and so your brain is just, oh, that's all you're thinking about.

Yeah. Yeah. And I say that when people come to me now, and my wife will have a different answer to this, or a comment on this subject, but when people come up to me and go, are you gonna take a break? There's so much assumption in that statement,

and I get it. The assumption from the person that's asking that is, you've constructed your life in a way that you have to do something, And I get it. The assumption from the person that's asking that is you've constructed your life in a way that you have to do something, and then you're doing that to do the other thing. And so you should take a break from the thing you have to do so you can do the things that you wanna do, right?

There's an assumption, because most everyone on the planet is doing that. I'm so lucky. You're doing the thing you wanna do. Yeah, so if it was yoga or painting or whatever it is. Yeah, the thing that gives you absolute peace and connection to the world is the thing that I get paid to do.

So sometimes I pretend, I go, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna take a vacation soon. But then I hate myself for that answer. Do you have a passionate connection to anything else besides film and your family? Sports, yeah, I do. Watching or playing? Playing, yeah, like I play basketball all the time.

Fun. Yeah, and I have both my knees, I have two ACLs, both done from basketball, the therapy, the whole thing, all in, and as an exercise to carve yourself, your discipline and connection, and I learn about myself. Tell me something about writing something

that someone else directs. Oh yes, I wrote Stuart Little, and then another person directed it. What's that like? That one was good and okay because it was almost like a semi-animated thing, right? Because there was a live action, there were live action people in that. But because it's almost another art form, the animation thing, and it's not something that I'm motivated or know how to do,

it was totally fine and wondrous to do. And I guess I went into it wanting to write something for our child that wasn't born yet. So I was like, let me write this for whoever this is. And so it came out in that innocence way and I felt good about it. And then I enjoyed the movie, the tone of the movie, which I would have never leaned it like that, you know?

But I really enjoyed its playfulness. Were you surprised with the choices made when you saw them? Yeah, and that is the beauty, right? Everybody's bringing their own color to the table and pressing in a different way. And in my head, when I was writing it, it had more of a classicism and more of emotion. And then when it was made, it had this really colorful buoyancy to it, which is absolutely lovely.

Do you think going to a Catholic school impacted your creative choices? For sure. In what way? I mean, just look, I did Knock at the Cabin as a kind of biblical story and servant, four years on the Apple thing, number one show is about like angels.

And, you know, it's there. The mythology that I went to school with is one of the mythologies I use as genre. There's ghosts and then there's aliens and superheroes and there's religion. Are there ghosts? Ha ha ha. What do you think?

I'll answer after like, what do you think? I'm really curious about you. I think yes. Do you think there are aliens? I definitely do. That's just mathematically impossible that they're. Does ESP exist? Pretty close, probably pretty close. Can we become invisible?

Oh man. You mean in the way that, it's funny you said that because I just thought of a new movie idea. It worked. It worked. It worked, yeah. Is there a way that you can forget things that I do and say even though we're right here and I'm kind of making that happen?

Yeah, I think so. It's probably some movement of energy that's not being present or something. Can we levitate? I'd love to believe that. I was that kid that just kept on looking at the cup or the pencil and said, I can make it move, I can make it move.

And I swear today I still look at it and I go, I think I can make it move. That's called psychokinesis. Yes, yes. Yes. But it hasn't happened yet. Yeah. What percentage of the ideas that you have come to fruition?

A high percentage. Every film idea that I've had since I was, since puberty has been either made or been offered to be made. And so I don't really develop like that. I have a lot of ideas. They're in notebooks, but they're just literally like a one line or one line like that. I have a lot of ideas that are in notebooks, but they're just literally like a one line, a one line like that. And they'll speak to me at the right time or not.

But for example, it's just I'm committed to it. I'm fully committed. And so the tornado of effort and energy that I'm gonna now bring, and I'm going to, by sheer will, make a movie exist in the universe, no matter what. I'm able to turn it on in that way, to just bring it to, you know, against-

Manifest it. Manifest it, no matter what. Can you work on more than one project at the same time? Not directing. Okay. Not directing, not two movies, let's say. I've done a TV show and a movie at the same time, Not directing. Not directing. Not two movies, let's say. I've done a TV show and a movie at the same time

when I'm doing one small episode, but I didn't write that episode. So it's a different part of me a little bit that does that. It was really interesting working on continuation of someone else's idea like in a TV show because sometimes art allows you to be more honest about yourself because you're not being you. And so I can write a male character that has flaws that I'm like,

oh, he has those flaws but really I have those flaws. And or she, who's a proxy for me, it feels this way about the world. Oh, that's so poignant she does. Well, that's me that feels that way. But I can't be that honest even with myself about it. It's a beautiful aspect of it. Sometimes I feel like even when I

trick myself into going, well, this is not mine. You had to me, hey, help me with that. Then I start coming up with it. Because you're getting a part of me that's not protective or tight. And so I'm coming from like a very free loving space. And then if I go, and sometimes I'll, I trick myself. And even the movie that I'm writing right now, in fact, the last two I've tricked myself into going,

oh, that's for someone else. Cause I genuinely thought I was gonna just have this idea that someone else was gonna do it and I produce it. Will you allow things to happen that you wouldn't allow to happen if you're protecting it for yourself? Probably yeah, I was gonna say some and I couldn't form what I'm about to say But maybe you can connect to dots was you know I know in like Juilliard and things they have this class where you wear masks and then you perform and and then you Immediately take on this other thing, you know, and maybe it's a version of that that I'm wearing someone else's mask

So I'm free. I'm not me So I'm free and then then you're doing something that feels really great and you want to continue it and now it's you have to Take off the mask to continue it. What do you think your best stat? Seeing talent and others You have to take off the mask to continue it. What do you think you're best at? Seeing talent in others. I love it. I love it. I'm so inspired by it, you know? And that could be anything.

That could be, of course it can be the artist, the singer, the costume designer, whatever. But it could also be the waiter. And going, wow, the invention that is you is amazing. In this moment when you're having your light is shining, and this is incredible when you're teaching all of us and guiding us in that way.

But I'm so endlessly inspired by everything. If you're going just in the movies, I mean, I'm so endlessly inspired by everything. And so, you know, seeing, like if you're going just in the movies, you know, seeing a movie and saying, my gosh, the photography or who did the costumes on that? And there's a, oh, there's this lady who lives in Bulgaria and she, I have to work with her.

So you build the best team because you recognize, regardless of the context that it's coming from, you can say, whoever did that, they're really good. Yeah, having the humility to know that it's not a static position of, you are good, you are bad, you are connected, you're not. When I meet an actor who has an incredible, or she has an incredible body of work,

it's the meeting the person is really to say, where are you today? That's it, you know, obviously you've done these beautiful inspired things with the universe, but where are you today? The place where you are today as human being and where I am, is that together going to make us make this beautiful fictional creature? In a world of artificial highs and harsh stimulants, there is something different, something clean, something precise. Athletic nicotine, not the primitive products found behind convenience store counters, not

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Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. How difficult is it working with actors? I love it. Especially the way I make movies is it's unusual in that it's very, in theory, one could from a far away say, it's so prescriptive. Tell me what it is. How do you do it?

So I write the thing and that's the words we're saying. No ad libbing, no. I mean, it's very, very rare to do that. The reason I didn't write um, there was a reason. So don't say um. It's a painting of colors. And then from there, it's the director and on the side of me and the storyboard artists,

we draw every single shot out and that's what we're shooting. So that sounds very limiting. Why aren't you being open? How well do you know what the film is going to look like before you shoot it? I mean, identical. Really? Yeah. That's amazing.

Like an animated movie. Wow. Yeah. You could come and I could show you each movie and it's like an animated, like a graphic novel, you could watch it. Then so so you go, why I said from a distance that sounds incredibly restrictive and prohibitive. And yet with that honest and months and months of painting those things, the actors come in, first of all,

they already know that it's already, they've heard me, I've done it so many times. And then they say, okay, this is the way we're doing this particular dance, okay, and then I come in and then they realize, wow, it's infinite the way you can play it, based on these factors. That the camera is moving on this line because it represents your anger,

so if you don't get angry, the camera's not gonna move. And so you have to choose it, and the pace of the way the camera's moving towards you is predicated on how fast and how angry you get. That's what I'm going to tell the operator, you're not listening because you just did a move that was even, and that's not what the character did, that's not what the actor did.

The actor did this kind of sinus move of like holding back, holding back, and then burst, but you didn't do that. So you stare at her eyes, you know, and then they get, they go, oh my God, and that was thought of three months ago, you know, and they get it as that, that it's a three dimensional medium. And that again, the choices of how to play are infinite,

you know, and then that being held by thought, not capriciousness or restriction for restriction sake. It wasn't, it was an inspired kind of, this is the visual script for the words and now we're going to add life to it. This is the frame of the painting. Now fill it with, and the messier, more real, great. So like if I'm pushing and then you see the actress,

gets angry and her head goes out for a pushing and then she, the actress gets angry and her head goes out for a second and comes in, great. It's that frame is just because when we see a painting, we take it in the frame is also critical to the emotion about the painting. When did you first start working that way? That was Sixth Sense. Yeah. That came from a thesis of watching one of The painting. When did you first start working that way? That was Sixth Sense.

Yeah. And that came from a thesis of watching one of the scenes in my movie at Miramax and going, wow, that's the only scene that works. Why is that? And then breaking down, oh, that's what I did in that scene. Huh, that's what the camera did. Interesting.

Oh, wow, that's also in psycho. Oh, that's also in, and pick whatever movie, ET. It's also in, and you're going, huh, this principle of the art form of the visual, because it's all art forms together. So honoring it, and I say that we cannot defer to one art form only. Even that art form is acting.

That's one part of it. It's in a dance with everything else. It is also dance. So the blocking is so critical. It is poetry. So the words, the um is so important. It's light, painting with light, you know? It's costumes.

You know, we keep going. It's all art forms together, so critical. Tell me the whole process from the time you have the script. So I have this script, let's say, you know, and then the next person is a storyboard artist who then comes and we spend about three months storyboarding. And during that time...

And that's when you're essentially making the movie. Yes, in my head, yes. And we'll also, at that time, if it's location dependent, and oftentimes it is, you can draw from finding the locations to enhance that, the visuals of that. Typically relocations or sets? If I can't find it, then we make it. And you'll see movies.

But you'd defer to relocation if you can? I don't know if I'd say that. Okay. I don't know if I'd say that. For example, if you look at signs or sixth sense or unbreakable, everything was built. So, built the train even. And it's because I see the camera doing this

and this and this and turning to the left. Well, there is no bedroom to the left. Well, we're gonna make a bedroom to the left. And it's a part of the art form. So like if you see another person who does that would be like, you know, like in Parasite. You know, when the table is where the table is. Have you seen Parasite?

I've not. Absolutely incredible. Absolutely incredible movie. And you know, there's a stairs and a door that's critical in the kitchen, and it's right at the end of the table, and there's stairs that go down. You're not going to find that house.

So he built it, and why is it so critical? It's the way all the shots that he came up and how he saw it, and that creates a specificity of an audience experience, because they know without knowing, oh my God, the table's here and the thing here, and it creates this beautiful composition, and this man's coming up in his head first and his eyes,

and then you go, wow, it's possible to find that, but we build a lot of it. Even when I have a location like with the visit, because it was super low budget and all, I rented a house for a year, so where we were gonna shoot it. And so I just sat in the house.

And I had to move my brain around a bit to make it work in the same way, but then I made each shot from that. Did you know the house before you storyboarded it? No, in that case, because I knew I had to find the house first. And because I didn't have the had to find the house first. Because I didn't have the money to build this house. Yeah.

So that was the first movie that I funded myself. So I was like, I just got to find a house and we just need to be able to rent it so we can shoot and reshoot and all that stuff. So then I just sat in this empty house and worked out all the shots. Okay. So the storyboard happens. Yeah. What happens next? Then you go, by that point you're overlapping into pre-production, which was then everyone

starts coming, all the crew members start arriving. You're already casted? Yes, that would be en route during the storyboarding process and then dovetailing into pre-production. Kind of the casting kind of trickles through that period. Typically, how many main characters are there? It really varies. Like a movie like Old is so many people. So it's a group, it's a collective experience.

And the one I'm doing now has really two main characters. So it can vary dramatically. Okay. So what happens next? Then pre-production and all the crews come and then it becomes very much almost like a military operation. There's all my assistant directors and everyone and every minute of the day is filled. You need to meet with the art department to decide this.

You need to go to locations to pick the ice cream shop where the thing's happening. You got to go visit seven ice cream shops or they're building you the bedroom downstairs, you need to go look at it. Every moment is covered. Okay, you got to meet the prop guy on and on. Then you got to go to costumes and then you're going to talk through,

they want to walk through these characters today, and boom, boom, boom, boom like that. What happens after that? Next phase. That builds to the highest intensity till day one of shooting. So that gets more and more and more intense. And during that latter part of pre-production, as you're getting very close to shooting in those last two weeks,

that's when rehearsals actors arrive. I see. And we rehearse and rehearse and talk about philosophy and try to get to know each other and in that trust way where. Do you shoot the films in order or not necessarily? I try to, as much in order as humanly possible. It's not that you have to do it that way,

but again, when you're trying to do something so precise, I'm not sure what her anger is yet in scene 47 until we've done scene 32. And with her and I working through, is her anger being presented as detachment? We might decide that. Mostly, we'd probably get there in rehearsals, but you might crystallize that realization in scene 32.

Oh, she shuts down when she gets really, really angry and it's scary. So then in 47, when she runs in, it's either a break from that style of, and then you have to play that like, now I'm gonna burst, you know, from being at this place. So it's so much more helpful to go in order for me, but it's not impossible.

It's really impractical to do it that way. And then like say there's three scenes here in the room that we're in, we can't keep coming in and out of your house to keep shooting it, so you try to shoot all three scenes. But I try as hard as I can to keep it for you guys, the actors, as in continuity as possible. Do you ever consider in the writing phase

the practicality of the shooting? I do. It's, because I love minimalism and I love containment. So I'm always anyway thinking that way, and insinuation and you know, long, zillion years ago they had offered me a movie called Troy, which was made in this big, wonderful way. And but when they sent me the script

and I was looking at it and I was like, okay, so maybe I can have two guys fighting and there could be a wall behind them, and the old wall, and then the real battle with a thousand soldiers on the other side of the wall, and you're only hearing it. And it's just between these two guys, so we could do the battle, and you could glimpse it through a little moment,

through the wall, but that's it. That's really interesting. So immediately my mind started going to the minimal version, the insinuating version of a giant battle movie. Yeah. But I like that, that kind of, I believe in it. You think it's the intimacy or the personal nature of two big people on the screen instead of 50 people

or 100 or 1,000 people on the screen? My brain just does not work that way. So when all of these amazing artists like, you know, Cameron and Spielberg and all these guys, they can see that big, wonderful, complicated thing, I just panic. And, you know, I'm so titillated by the idea of incompleteness.

I love that. And so I'm just showing you a part of the painting. Yeah. Have you ever considered directing theater or writing for theater? Definitely. Yeah, I feel most of my movies could be plays. And so I've really thought about it a lot, about whether to just take six

months or a year and go write a play and, you know, see how that feels. To just rely on the blocking and the written word to do most of the storytelling. I mean, you can use other aspects, of course, you know, it is very innovative these days, but fear is probably just stopping me. How would you describe your demeanor on the set? A mixture of temperaments, I would say. It moves from highly kind of concentrated and, you know, quiet and, you know, my wife and puppy just say anxious,

but you know. Do you feel anxious? You know, I find the making of a movie matches my anxiety really well, becomes a superpower, because my mind can go to the next shot's this, you need to set up that, whisper to the gaffer this, whisper that, do that, you know, saying, okay, we need to do this, oh, this sweater is the, you know,

I have an idea for the next thing with the sweater, shoes, wearing, but in my mind, it's buzzing and I can use it to an advantage, whereas in regular life, you know, you have to calm it and say, stop playing chess. Whereas on the set, playing chess at 100 miles an hour is great, I'm super efficacious, you know, you're pounding all that energy. So I'll super efficacious, you know, you're pounding all that energy.

So I'll say something like to, you know, the ADs, everybody knows my thing, which is, hey, you know, we're gonna be ready, I think the actors should be here when we're ready, as opposed to we're ready, call the actors. That doesn't work like that. And I'll explain to the actors why that's the case, that they should be waiting on the hundred of us,

not the hundred of us waiting on the one person. And I say, you know, I'll use an example like, hey, let's say, I say, well, shots ready. Okay, we call that person. They come, they get off their phone in the trailer, they go to the bathroom, they walk over, come to the set. And let's say they do it really fast, five minutes. Yeah. Right?

Five minutes. Okay, what's the problems? Five minutes, 12 shots a day, five minutes minutes 12 shots a day five minutes one hour. I Just lost one hour in the end of the week. He lost five hours in two weeks. He lost a day of shooting But you need that day that day of shooting you lost a day of shooting. So What we're not doing that, you know, and so when I walk through a cut why we're doing it. What hours do you work? Well, it depends if it's outdoors or nighttime and things like that, but if normal, if it's stage work,

I try to do kind of, you know, we're shooting by, you know, seven or 730 and then we can finish early. I do try to do 10 hour days. What is early, 10 hour day? I try to do 10 hours. Recently I've done it outside the country and we've done 10 hours straight, where, you know, they're more used to doing,

you eat while you stand and then you finish and everybody goes home early. But here we don't do that as much. You know, it's not the most. Where have you done that? What countries have you worked in outside of the universe? We did the last movie we did in Canada and then my daughter's movie we did in Ireland

and that was wonderful. And then we did a movie in the Dominican called Old and all of those we did, those kind of straight 10 hour days. You mentioned the first movie that you funded yourself. Tell me what led to that happening. Wow. How many movies did you make before that? I don't know. Maybe that's 10 or something like that. You know, there was a period where I was thinking that the fear and the getting the morsels from the system

were indicators that I wasn't doing it right. So let me find a way to join the system, because everyone is tacitly saying, to do it the normal way, do it the normal way, go do it the normal way. Then there's so many rewards for doing it the normal way. And you could just coast and do it. So I think there was a period of time

where I joined the system, tried to join the system. And that was for the first 10? No, it was in the middle period. Okay. In this middle period. That first period was, it was a different era in filmmaking. It was a different time in the studio system because they really were making original movies.

And the system was geared towards that kind of, so there was a lot of us doing. Was that still a leftover from the revolution of the Raging Bull, Easy Rider? Probably. Late 70s. Yeah, it still went through the 90s. Yeah, right till then, and then it started to change. Independent-minded movies.

Yes, and that's what it was. You need to write, find the next great new story and new storyteller. That was what the system was built for. And then from there, right when the 2000s started till now, it has become an addiction of being familiar. The framing is more important than the painting. Maybe that's indicative of how fast things are going,

and people need to feel okay. There must be a real wonderful reason, a healing reason that saying the second movie or the third movie makes you feel really, okay, good, I know what I'm going to get, I'm going to go in there. That wasn't the case prior to 2000s. You had your outliers, but generally speaking, it was fresh. Yeah, so that first group was still coming off of

the original blockbuster stuff that was really free and working. Then again, as I said, I think I was feeling this, hey, maybe you don't have to be as exposed, and maybe it doesn't have to be this hard, and maybe there's a way that you can be accepted because everybody's telling you that. Just do it this way, just join the system, do it that way.

I guess in music it would be kind of, just put that voice box thing on, whatever it is, that sound that everybody has, just do it, that's the sound of today. And you go, oh maybe I'm being arrogant. And so I tried to join the system in that middle area and I'm not good at it and I don't know how to do it. And it's not about-

It's also not why you started doing it. You didn't get into it for that. Mm-mm. Yeah, I mean, that was a, probably if you're being very honest and being very honest, probably more reward-centered behavior, which is pathetic, you know, that I just want the rewards or the safety or the, you know, concomitant positive things that can happen by being in the system.

But the beauty that came from that was I wasn't happy at all. I wasn't good at it. And that brought clarity. And then, as I told you, I get very ignited when people give up and they go, you know, ah, he can't do that, or he can't do that anymore, or whatever it is. And they come up with a statement, I love it. So then I was like, you know,

I used to think if I was an NBA player, would I have in my contract a clause that says I'm allowed to play streetball? You know, most, they don't have, they have the opposite, which is you're not allowed to do any of those sports, you know, because we're paying for you. Yeah. So they-

You might get hurt and that would impact them. Yes, so in this kind of metaphor, I was like, well, let's go just go play streetball. So no one asked me to make a movie. In fact, I'm gonna make a movie that they say won't succeed. Everyone's gonna be their older child and I'm gonna make it super funny and scary, which they said can't be done.

It just can't, those two things can't exist. It was the not having been connected to the illusion or connected to the system freed me to kind of do it differently. And I was so happy. And when we were making this, before we sold it, before everything, I was really happy making that movie, The Visit.

And the one before that was a big studio picture? That's correct, yeah. And I didn't have really ultimately the say in that picture to make it what I want, but I wanna be really clear, that's cop out, because at any moment I could have walked away. Right. And I didn't.

But you're also not a quitter, so I understand. Yes, but in today's vernacular, with now, with the way I am, as soon as I realize the situation is fraught with artifice or an inability for us to do the kind of soul searching and conversation that you and I are having, I'm out. Yeah, so you decide to fund the movie yourself. Yeah, so I made this movie, went totally off the grid, made this thing, went all my instincts on it,

went everything about it on paper. Any algorithm of success would tell you this is not going to work. And yet everything in me said it's going to work. And I make it. And then I panic a little bit. And I say, I need to sell this because I put a mortgage on the house and all this stuff.

So I show it to everyone in the industry, basically the buyer versions of the industry, six weeks after I shoot it. So six weeks, nothing. I just slapped it together and show it to everybody. Because I just want them to give me the money and I'm safe and I'm not going to be some e-true Hollywood story of what happened and now. They all passed.

Everybody passes. And one company said, I'd love to see it when it's done, but they didn't buy it, right? But everybody else passes. So I fly home. I'm like, oh my God. Do you think they passed because they don't like it or is there more to the story?

It's so different. There's no precedent for it. I'm like, oh my God. Do you think they passed because they don't like it or is there more to the story? It's so different. There's no precedent for it. They keep trying to use- They have no context for this movie. No context, yes. No context at all. Because it's not another one that was successful so they could point to,

well, it's just like that thing that worked. Impossible, right? So they have that and they have the context of what they believe is they've lost faith in me in the system, in their opinion, right? So that's all context related. And it wasn't quite finished. So it's like a 65% version of what it will ultimately be.

So you either go, you either see the 65% or you go, no, it's really only 30%, you know, in your head, you're using all that context to crush it. So I come home and my daughter at that time, the youngest daughter and I used to have this thing when we would do puzzles together, and that's what we did. We'd go in the dining room and take a thousand piece puzzle and dump it on the thing, and we'd dump it on the thing.

And so I got home. Cheek-saw puzzle. Cheek-saw puzzle. And she was there and I was completely like, a little bit not in my, I was, you know, not here. And I'm walking through my house, which I think we're gonna sell, you know, and she doesn't know anything, you know,

she's just a little kid. And so we sit down and we start to do the thing, and I'm like, let's do it. And we sit down and we're looking, looking, looking, looking for a piece, and we eventually find it, and we're looking, looking, looking, looking for a piece and we eventually find it. And we're so excited, it took us 20 minutes to find this one piece, right? It's the beginning of the thing to make it match.

And then I went, wow, you know, all I have to do is just trust that this painting is, this is gonna make a picture. And I trust it, because it came out of a box. That trust that there is a piece there. Just find the next piece. You don't have to even know how to do this whole thing. Just find the next puzzle piece.

And I went, well, that's what I just got to do. Just find the next puzzle piece. So the next morning I went into the editing room and we just made one line better and one cut better. And I just spent my days doing one piece at a time, one puzzle piece at a time. And then soon, I forgot that there was a mortgage, and I forgot all the rejections and all that stuff. And I was just excited about the next piece,

the next piece, the next piece. And I went, oh, how about if I do this? Oh, you know what? I can go back and shoot this and grab this. That'd be so fun. And do that, and then I just kept on going, and I forgot all about it. And then by the time I got months later,

when I'd done it hundreds and hundreds and the painting was done, I was like, let's go back to that person that said they wanted to see it again and let's show it to them in front of an audience. And we did, and that was Universal Pictures, and they bought it. And it was-

What was it like to see it in front of the audience? They went through the roof. They were screaming and yelling and laughing. And exactly what the thesis was, which is that the laughter would turn into screams. And then they would laugh at themselves for screaming. And it was so outrageous and provocative, roller coaster ride.

And then they would just forget to be quiet. And they're all just vocal. And it's like a ride, like a roll up and down. And then the explosion and that laughter and the clapping and all of that stuff. And so it was joy, they could feel my play, you know? And then, you know, that went and became like a huge success with that movie.

And then I went on and did many, many, many movies with Universal and here we are still, you know. Did you do them that way where you would fund them or they would? No, then I did all of them funded. So I funded all of them from then on. Great. Yeah. Did you at one point have a relationship with Blumhouse?

What I ended up doing was showing Jason Blum the movie The Visit and saying- The finished movie. Pretty much. And saying, could we take one of your slots? And so I have that much more. Cause even after I showed them, there was there was there's a resistance, right?

Because everyone's guessing. So they need things. So his Emperor Mature was critical at that moment cause they really believed in him. So that combination was like, all right, we'll give you that slot. And then we together, we went and took that slot. And then it was great.

So have you made more with him? We did another one after that together. Yeah, and hopefully we'll make more. Great. What's the most interesting part of the process for you of filmmaking? The most painful is the preview screenings when you're showing it to audiences.

It's the most painful because what you're making and what they're seeing are not exact. So the process of getting it, the thing I'm making and the thing they're seeing is one and the same. And because it's a juxtapositional art form. So if I cut from you to, you know, it's the Eisenstein theory of cinema. Like if I cut from you to, you know, it's the Eisenstein theory of cinema. Like if I cut from you looking at the bowl,

they're interpreting that you're hungry. But I didn't, maybe didn't mean that. And so these unintentional connections, so what they're watching versus what I intended, we have to get that in sync is a process of like, you know, this feels like your soul a little bit, it's getting torn, but it's a beautiful thing to become one. How do you think being a father informed who you are?

Oh, it's everything. I think I was a father even before I became a father. It was just, it's just in me. Like I love kids and kids really, I think are drawn to me. So like I'll be, we'll be somewhere and a little kid will come up to me in a grocery store. They come and I'll hug them and you know, they're our gurus.

They're the ones that are teaching us, you know. We're teaching them about this stupid world that we're in, but they're really teaching us much more important things. Have you ever had a mystical experience? I mean, everything we've been talking about. My whole life. The whole thing, man. The whole thing. I mean, you know, you stare at posters of like, you know, people

and then they become your friends and partners when you're older. And, you know, it's just incredible. How would you say success has changed you? Hmm. Well, in a bad way, it has increased my anxieties or the bad versions of my ambition. You know, there's good ambition, you know, and we need growth, but maybe it's tweaking kind of greed or insecurities of winning in some way.

Are you competitive? Yeah. But it should be aimed at yourself. Yeah. Tell me about the marketing part of the film. Do you get involved at all in the poster, in the trailer, in all of the things surrounding the film? So I talked to young filmmakers about this question,

and I say, in 2024, and it wasn't that way, like when they put out five easy pieces or something back in the day. They took a New York Times ad and a Los Angeles Times ad, and that was it. And then everything else was, it's it playing at your local theater for one year, and you eventually would tell ad and that was it. And then everything else was, it's playing at your local theater for one year, and you eventually will tell me to go see it.

That's how it was, advertising was. But now it's as costly or costlier than the movie, and they have to sell something. And so what ends up happening is that the marketing environment has started telling you the story before we did. So the story has begun. So the storytelling is started already.

So you have to be a part of it, in my opinion, because if you're passive, then they could tell a different story than the one that you're making, and then you have a problem. So I'm very clear, like, when I'm making something, okay, this is going to be, they they're gonna tell this part of the story before they come into the movie theater and then we're gonna withhold this part of the story. And I have to make sure that I have enough for them

to tell this part of the story because they spend a lot of money to get it in every theater in the world, in a global release. Now when you're doing platform or any film, that's not necessarily the case. You can get closer to the five easy pieces thing, but not exactly. Do you make movies to be seen in the theater?

That's it, only. Yeah. Yeah. How is the experience different seeing one of your movies in a theater with a group of people versus watching it at home on a streaming service? There's so many differences of that, but the most important one, the primary one, let's put aside the kind of gratuitous things that at home you're watching it while you're getting changed

or doing your laundry or da-da-da-da-da, putting on your makeup and you're kind of half watching it. Put aside that, which is real and sad, but let's pretend you were watching it in an ideal form. In your couch, you don't talk, you don't talk, you're right in front of me and you are watching it in an ideal form, you know, in your couch, you don't talk, you don't talk, you're watching it. When you're watching something by yourself, you are bringing only your worldview to the table,

only your perspective of the world. So you will see only those things that that reinforces and you'll be blind to the other things. You know, you're gonna, let's say for example, you're a 50 year old dude watching Twilight. You're gonna go, wait a minute, come, come, uh-uh. Now, if you're in a movie theater, and it's full of all ages, and you have everyone there,

and there's a group of teenage girls down in the front of the theater that are laughing and gasping and the thing, you cannot help but feel what they're feeling. You're connected like a quilt. So you become a larger version of yourself, something where we're all tied together, and I think a better version of ourselves. So she's reminding me that that's actually funny that scene.

It wasn't something to make fun of, that was something that was funny, it was intended. Oh, that has wit for, and when you're commenting on what it's like to be a 15-year-old girl or 16-year-old, oh, and then your gravitas that you're bringing at age 50, she's feeling that in the silence, in the way you're holding that look

from the father or whatever it is. You're each teaching each other to see through each other's eyes in this tiny, important way. And that's beautiful. We expand. We get to be beyond our particular worldview. It's such a beautiful art form, the collective experience together of a story. Can you imagine ever making a black and white film? Sure. Definitely. Minimalism is lovely and to some extent I could argue that it's the most powerful way to do it because it really is in the

language of incomplete. Yeah. And you're filling in everything. I love the idea of the language of the incomplete. I think it's beautiful, beautiful thing to think about. Because when you try to complete it you're obviously going to fail. Yeah. It's much more complicated and beautiful than the way I was going to define. Even if it's a fictional thing, a creature or whatever it is, that's why because the shark wasn't working in Jaws, you got to do it in an incomplete way and thus it became much bigger and scarier. More poetic.

Yes. The beauty of the incomplete is the audience gets to complete it themselves. And the way we each complete it is different. Bespoke for each of us. It's true for each of us. Yeah. If you could remake the entire movie system, how would it work differently

if you were in charge of the whole system? How would it work differently if you were in charge of the whole system? Yeah, that's a tough one, man, because as I said, it's so much about giving you such a heavy frame that you already know the meal already before you've eaten it. And if you're eating a cheeseburger and you don't really rate the cheeseburger, unless it's really extraordinary, and then you go, but as long as you got a cheeseburger, you're like, that was good. But if I said, was it really good?

Was the bread great? Was the cheese today? You'll be like, well, it was okay. You'll be like, well, actually it wasn't. You don't even think like that. I'm sure you've heard that experiment they did with, they said, there's wine, it's a very expensive bottle of wine, how did you like it? And you drink it and it tastes amazing. And then how's this one? This one's cheap. And they drink it, it's

okay. And then they're measuring the brain and actually the receptors of taste are actually firing more with the expensive one because you've been framed that way. So in your experience of it, it did taste better. Yeah. It really did. The placebo. Yeah, it's really happening because you're experiencing in your head. So when we're framing so strongly for them,

that you're basically watching the movie or experiencing it before you've seen the movie, that's a different system than the one I'm trying to do, which is just trust me. Come to the movie theater. When I understand the struggle of it, I get it, but I wish the system was geared the opposite way, which is if you say, hey, Rick, where do you wanna go eat?

And I did that, I texted you and I said, where should I go eat? You gave me your answers of things and some of them are, it's just great, go. You didn't tell me it was Italian food. That's what I wish it was, the way you did it with me. You just said, food's great. That was it.

You didn't even tell me what kind of food. And so I love that. I wish we were oriented to that. So I don't have to say Chinese food. I don't have to say burger. I don't have to say pizza. And you come't have to say burger, I don't have to say pizza. And you come and I can give you different things in a different capacity,

I can give you something sweet to start. And so you don't go, why am I, this is crazy. And that you're ready for the experience and then you're really present. And that's the way it really was before marketing became the primary driver of cinema. Are there any other directors who, when you see their name before the title of the movie, you have a real sense

of what you're going to see besides you? I mean, sure, there's Quinton, for sure, right? Wes Anderson. Wes, absolutely, yeah. I mean, and before that was a lot of them, but the color, you're gonna hear such a strong accent that it's beautiful, you're coming for the accent. Can you imagine making a movie

that was outside of your genre? Yeah, but I do feel like I have enough room in my genre that it's, because it's a mashup of genres to begin with. It's already, like it already began with a mashup of drama and scary movie. Like we already just started there, it was a mashup to begin with.

How important is scary? You know, for me, I would like more to define myself, you know, and the way I do see myself is more of a thriller filmmaker, which is basically a more muscular mystery, that that's where I am, you know, and the way I do see myself is more of a thriller filmmaker, which is basically a more muscular mystery, that that's where I am, you know, and then everything else is ornamentation on that. But if you go to, if I go somewhere and they're like,

and someone goes, oh, I'm a big fan, and then they're with their wife or whatever, and the wife says, oh, I don't watch scary movies. And I always go, is that what I do? And I go, huh. Because I know this lady would love almost every single one of them, you know, but she has, I'm in a part of the store

that's scary movies and that's that. So I little bit fight that a bit because it's one dance move or, you know, in the whole dance, but it's not all of it. And we think of Hitchcock movies as thrillers, but we never think of them as metaphysical. So viewers tend to have this otherworldly quality. Like this conversation we have is an outcropping

of the same things that are in the movie. Yeah, you're right, there's that. I didn't even, I don't even say that when I was saying what is it that you do, but it is critical for me to make those. And I would love that lady to not say, I don't like scary movies, as opposed to, you know, you make me feel things in a way of existential thoughts.

Because I can feel you struggling with them and you make characters that struggle with that, and I struggle with that. That lady would love that. But it's because she thinks it's in the corner of the store where people get chopped up. Yeah, it's not saw. Yeah, exactly. That's so funny. How do you think you're most misunderstood? I think we touched on it a bit, the whole scary thing, because I think the most salient flavor is the one that they call it.

So the subtler flavors are unimportant. The drama, the mystery, the philosophical. Those quieter colors get dismissed a bit and then go, yeah man, give me some more Tabasco sauce, I love it. And so sometimes it makes me not wanna do the Tabasco sauce. And it's interesting, the idea of turning up the psychological drama and turning down the Tabasco sauce, I'd wanna see one of those.

Yeah, but will the audience, because they were framed for the cheeseburger, get pissed? But do you feel an obligation in that way that they have to get certain notes? Well, now you're getting to another part of it, which is I do feel a responsibility. There is a covenant to take that money. When they see my name, there's a relationship,

a pre-existing relationship, a date that we've been on together, and they expect a similar date. That doesn't need to be confining, but beautiful. And so how can you kind of do 80% that and then 20% something new or 70 and 30 or something like that without it being a complete like, hey, I didn't get the cheeseburger. Yeah.

Who are your favorite filmmakers and what is it about each of them that put them on the list? Oh my gosh. I mean, it's endless, honestly. It really just is endless. But, you know, just I'll take a few. But, you know, Kurosawa, because again, because of his formality, I just understand why he did everything he does.

It's like, and not moving the camera, and then moving the camera, and his brilliance of blocking, and his trafficking in deep pathos, you know, amongst the plot, you know, and his characters are tortured and I find them profound, his precision of thought. What's your favorite Curacao film?

Geez, this again. It's so good. There's so many. I have posters up of Rochamon in my office and the high and low in my office. So both of those are in my office. So they're obviously in the pantheon, those two. Ikuru was also one that popped into my head.

Incredible. Yeah. How did you learn your craft? Imitation and then the kind of failure of imitation, and why that leaves you empty, and what is that? And then in that space, you start to hear yourself. What's the Foxcatcher story? I think you're referencing the village, in my movie, The Village.

Is that what it is? Well, no, but you're referencing the property near our house, called Foxcatcher. And so- Dupont. Yes, so I would pass it every day, and this property was, you know, their family's property was in there, all these acres, and they had their own hospital and insane asylum and-

Inside the gates. Yes, yes, and they, you know, there's a famous story of someone getting murdered in there and all this stuff, and so it was just full of wonder for me as I was passing this rusted fence covered in ivy, and now it's a development, it's gone, and there's all these McMansions there and all of that stuff, but back in those days,

we really conjure imagination in me, and I think the village, the movie The Village, came from that fence. Just driving by. Have you worked much with CGI? Not compared to most. If I can do it in camera, we try to do it in camera. It's just so hard, right, to, again,

in that idea of incompleteness, it's so hard to complete something. I found that it's best when you add obscurity to the CGI. So like, you know, so if you have a dinosaur or whatever, you should have it raining and it should be a night and it should be, there should be other things to create the incompleteness again. Yeah.

Tell me about your spiritual life. I would say right now, I'm teetering on a place of wanting to change what it is that I think I am moment to moment, that I'm a group of thoughts that I call myself, that those, most of those, like all of us, like most of us, has been passively chosen. And I've had the wonderful ability to learn how to not do that when I'm creating.

So it's been a respite from this burden of the passive thoughts that have become who I am. And by that means, this is what you think when you're stuck in traffic. This is what you think when you find out someone stole money from you. This is what you think when someone beautiful stands in front of you. Those thoughts. And you can choose to think new thoughts. You can.

You have to be aware because autopilot happens instantaneously. And so I'm trying now, I've been thinking for the last, I would say six weeks now, and I feel it changing. Like, the normal version of me may not get everything here that we're doing right now. I would say all these things. I've always been okay being honest with you know what I'm asked, but to be here and feel this kind of fabric here and see you and take this with me forever is the hope.

And convey something of reassurance to you of another, another person on the planet that is grateful and happy. Hopefully there's something that comes across and probably not succeeding, but I want that to be the case from here when you're going, what is it you want now? I want with all the scars and all the mistakes

and everything, I want to go, those were all beautiful lessons to be someone better. And by better I just mean happier. And so I'm trying to concentrate on my thoughts. And when you do that, everything seems wondrous. What do you think happened six or so weeks ago that started this? Like, how did you get on that? It's probably, you What do you think happened six or so weeks ago that started this? How did you get on that?

It's probably, you hear the right thing. It was from a podcast, ironically enough. You have to hear the right thing at the right time, then it goes click, and then you go down, not go down, you go up a rabbit hole. Yeah. Do you remember what it was that you heard? I'm sorry, I'm forgetting the name whose podcast was on,

but it was this Dr. Joe Dispenza was talking about thoughts. And so I'd never heard him before. And then it just went click, the idea when he said, today we will have 90% the identical thoughts that we had yesterday. And I went, oh my God, we're all in the matrix. We're in our own matrix.

We are. And I was like, well, I don't want to have the same thoughts. And then the thought, I do believe that I've always felt like, you know, whatever you do, wherever you are, whatever your vibration is, you're gonna bring that. Because I don't think the universe, that energy or science, the quantum physics of it all says good or bad. You know, I think, you know,

so if I'm not feeling great, there's a lot more not feeling great than to come my way, you know, if I feel people will betray me, oh my gosh, there's so many more people coming to betray me, you know? And so it's like, if we can resonate in a place of bad, that will come back as well. How much time do you spend in nature?

We live on a beautiful property. That and the reason that I picked that property because it is one of those old estates that doesn't exist anymore. And thinking of spending the rest of my life there and having not only did we raise our kids there, but soon hopefully grandkids that are walking with them. And maybe, maybe if I'm lucky like my dad, see my great grandkids on that property.

And amazing. It would be amazing. Just absolutely amazing. So, and it's wondrous, you know, the trees that we planted and they're all grown. And it's just, it's just absolutely amazing. I want to spend more and more time. Every year I spend more time outside. Tell me about your movie watching habits. It's sacred.

Nothing's casual at the house, which obviously really is a bummer for my wife and kids. So it's just too meaningful, the images that come into my head. And I'll force myself to sit with them to just be a part of their lives for a few minutes but it's literally like getting burned. So when I'm taking it in, it can be anything.

I don't have like, it can be a rom-com, it really can't, it just has to be exquisite. In that what it is, it has to be beautiful in and of itself, its version of what it is. And so when you see my movie collection, it's not snobbery. You have the Bergmans and all that stuff,

but you do have everything. Because when I was the chair of the Berlin Film Festival, I said to the jurors, they said, what are the criteria? How do we do this? And I said, we're not judging genre. So whoever achieved what they set out to do at the highest level, whoever did it the best, that's who wins. Tetragrammaton is a podcast. Tetragrammaton is a website. Tetragrammaton is a website.

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