Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - M.I.A.

Episode Date: October 8, 2025

M.I.A. is a music artist, producer, and activist known for blending electronic, hip-hop, and world music. Hailing from London with Sri Lankan roots, she gained international recognition with her debut album Arular and breakthrough hits like “Galang” and “Paper Planes.” Her later albums, including Kala and Matangi, continued to explore themes of identity, globalization, and politics through bold production and visual art. Beyond music, M.I.A. has directed films, exhibited artwork, and remained an outspoken advocate for refugee and immigrant rights. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Athletic Nicotine https://www.athleticnicotine.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Squarespace https://squarespace.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://drinklmnt.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter

Tetragrammaton. a direction, but I was going to be a painter. And I studied at Sir Martins and I was really into art and film, but not music, really. But I was into music, but it was... That was not going to be your path. Yes, I was a hundred percent of music fan. Yes. I know all of my beats, all of myself, all of my artists. Like, even before I was a teenager, I would trek, like, halfway across London to find the right to our bench. And I was obsessed. And Even in London when I would hang out or bunk school and explore London, I would be drawn to meeting friends based on their music taste.

Obviously, most teenagers are. But I would hear, like, people play music out of their window, and I would literally knock on their door and be like, hey, I want to be your friend, you know? Like, because there was no phones, cell phones, or there's no other way of finding people back then. So you would just walk down the street and if you knew that song is like a banging. If they're listening to that, that's someone I want to talk to. Exactly. And if you met people on the underground tubes and they were like wearing a t-shirt that said a certain song and you're like, okay, that's my best friend, do you know? It was just like that. So I realized that all of my life

like everyone I had around was met through this musical thing. But I never wanted to be a music. But my musical friend who was in a band called Elastika, she wanted to go somewhere and I had this painting exhibition and it did really well. And it was my first break. Tell me about the paintings. So I went to make a documentary film about the war in Sri Lanka and then when I came back to make the film for Channel 4, I don't know. It just kind of fell through because the person who was sort of helping me commission it at Channel 4, he was the head of documentaries. And I felt like I got in the way of this serious subject, you know, so everyone would be like, why do you want to talk about this? because this is so heavy

but you seem like not like that person you're from there now yes I'm from there but because I'd went to art school and I was kind of like I was cool

and people felt documentarians are quite boring and serious people and so he asked me out on a date and I felt really like I don't know, disappointed or like let down by that. So I didn't want to carry on making this film.

And so I thought, I'd just stay at home and convert these stills into paintings. So that was my first thing to be reclusive and to do something where you're just self-reliant, don't need money. It was the cheapest thing I could do, you know, and generated these paintings. and my friend was like, oh, you can show them in my space, showed them, then things happened pretty quickly, got picked up for this alternate paternity prize, and people was like, yeah, we have a painter, you know? Like another person's arrived in the art scene,

and I was like, yeah, all in, like, this is what I'm going to do. And then my singer friend was having some health issues, and she was like, I need to take this time out. And since you're my best friend, you should come and be with me. And I was like, okay. But I was crying because I was like, wow, it took so long to get this break. And you're asking me at the cusp of this thing. And it's going to change everything because I've never been on holiday up to that point.

And I was like, the last thing I want to do is sit somewhere with you where nothing's going on. I would go mad. and I have to work off the momentum of the paintings doing well and keep working on it and she was like, no, you have to do this for me. And so I made a decision to go and it turned out to be the best thing ever. Tell me about that.

Where did you go and what happened? We went to a little island called Beckway and it's in St Vincent and when we arrived musically it was amazing because everyone had sound systems everywhere in the street and it played music all the time. Like, even when you're asleep at 3 in the morning, it's on,

six in the morning it's on, it's just constant. And so I was just like sleeping to bass lines, waking up to bass lines, everything had a bass line in the background. You know, there was just not a quiet moment. And I thought, oh, this is not so bad because I know all of these songs, you know, because the Jamaican scene in London was huge. And so suddenly, I was like, oh, my God, this is like all the songs I grew up on. And to experience it in that environment was amazing.

And I was out dancing in the street because, like, there was no clubs. They just had a shack in the street. And it was all hilly so the parents can see everything that was happening. And so one of them came up to me and said, you know, we see you dancing every night. in the street, why don't you go to church on Sunday? And I was like, okay, so I went. So I think we partied like Monday to Saturday. And then on Sunday, I went to church. And then when I was in church, I was clapping all crazy. And they stopped the service. And they came up and they said, you know, we've seen you dancing. Like all of a sudden, your rhythm is.

disappeared for Jesus, like, what happened to you, you know? And I was like, you're right, that's, it's weird. I just can't do this. And so that day, because this lady asked me that, I went home and I'm not, I'm going to figure it out, like what is wrong with me just doing this normal clap? And I realized that I was just clapping out this entire new beat on top of the vocals. I see.

And I was like, oh, that's really weird because when I'm dancing, it kind of comes out different in my body, but when I have to isolate it to just my hands and follow like some sort of beat, I just cannot do it. It's like you're playing a counter rhythm. Yes, I was filling in all the blanks and stuff. I see.

And then that day we wrote the Galang Beat. It was like really restraining yourself. Yeah. And converting it into a machine that made some sort of pattern, you know, of the thing your body wanted to do and then it all just like clicked and then my friend came home

and she listened to it and she was like wow you might be a songwriter you know she was like I think you can do this and really I was like I want to write stuff so you have a new record to make and then I'm going to go back to my painting like 10 days from now I'm going to write you an album and then I'm going to go back to my painting

and you're going to do music and not get bored. And that was really the deal. And as we started writing more and more, it started to emerge that it was actually its own thing. And then that was it. When I came back to London, a lot myself in the room, just stopped all of my socialising.

Stop painting as well? Stop painting. Stop everything. And for three months, I'd just sat in this room and learned my voice. Tell me about the process. How do you do that? Well, it was just that I'd never heard my voice through a microphone. So I had this taped there, a four track, and there's a hundred-pound mic.

And it was just like making these sounds and going like, wow, that's my voice. That's crazy. You know, and then just becoming comfortable. and then having fun with it. And then just letting that be the thing. So not trying to copy someone else, not trying to put pressure to be good and great or anything. Just really just speaking and then learning like how it sounded loud

and how it sounded quiet, how it's sounding when you whisper. And just like being mind-blown by it and just like, whoa, you can make it do anything. and just kind of learning the voice as an instrument. And then the beat-making bit became secondary. And I was like, okay, so the documentary went into being the paintings, but maybe I can make those turn into songs. Yeah. And so the paintings were of like a revolutionary vibes

because it was content that was shot. In all of the different modalities, the content was the same. It was the same. It was always telling this story about a revolutionary period. Yes. It was also revolutionary in that it was being made with no money and no rules. So, like, in terms of the industry, it was like, I just need to hear someone that tells me some information that I don't know.

And I wasn't sometimes getting that in the songs. But like, say the 90s hip hop gave you stuff. You know, like, you were like, okay, I just like studied a whole thing when you hear a song. But we were in like 2003 where it was much more like manufactured pop music. Yeah. And you had like Simon Cowell like churning out bands. And, you know, it was like that era of like everything being super shiny. but we were at war in Afghanistan

the Tamils were still at war and you had like artists like Banksy that was coming from my neighbourhood who always wanted to like mess with the status quo and so coming from the art scene you had to be like that as a musician it was like okay if I'm not going to be Banksy

then it just naturally became like the Banksy version of the music, you know. And it was about saying, okay, like we don't have the certain luxuries to talk about certain things. Like there are great things and I'd like to talk about love and all this beautiful stuff. But right now I don't have the luxury to do that. And it's something you have to work at, but you have to start where you start and, you know, report on like the social. situation that you're in. Yeah, so I just like wrote things that were also quite personal. Because I kind of knew also that you were going to be criticized.

And so it had to be really personal. And if it's coming from truth, no one can knock it. Like, no matter what anyone says. You're sharing your experience. Yeah. No one can comment on your diary. comment on your diary being good or bad. And also if it's true, you don't know any other way.

It's better to never second guess what other people are going to like and do exactly what you feel in the purest form because at least you know you were true to yourself in that moment and you can evolve and you can change and you can revisit your ideas in that moment if it was coming from a true place, there's nothing to criticize. So I was already aware of that. So I always kept it very, like, that's the most important thing.

In the time that you were finding your voice, was it only the sound of the instrument or was it also the words? The words, it kind of just comes naturally. I was kind of good at it because I wanted to be a filmmaker, so I wrote quite a lot. But I always fell asleep with my four track on one side and my notebook coming on the other side. So, like, you wake up and you just write down what comes to you. If I thought about a beat and I fell asleep, it would just tell me what I need to say kind of thing. And then you wake up. And so I often worked out of my bed because that's just how father.

Yeah. Spear was. It's probably the closest place to your subconscious. You're tapping into that part of yourself that you reach through dreams. Yep. Your bed is sort of like an altar as well. And, you know, if a beat is good, you can't get it out of your head. So then when you go to sleep and it's in your head,

you're naturally, your subconscious is working out the tune and the beat and what you would say. And, you know, and then you're like, if you fight that, and you ignore it and you get up and you start doing other things. I feel like sometimes there's layers, you know, like you can still live with it. And then you'll walk by someone and they would say a word. And then it would trigger it again. And you're like, oh, yeah, I've got to go and write that down. And at that time, I heard that M&M, like he always had a notebook or something.

And I remember thinking, I was like that, like I was writing on bus tickets. and when you have it, you've got to write it down, you know? And that if you forget it, you might not come back. So I was always just like write everywhere, and it was just like all the time. That's everything like writing on it. So yeah, the words were like coming, but it wasn't serious, you know?

Yeah. It was just entertaining myself is what I thought. Would you say you were learning the language of music? I was definitely going, okay, as a filmmaker, everyone taught me to a music. write these long things that last an hour. And then as a musician, you have to squish it into three minutes. And so you're like, how do you tell a story in three minutes? And so that was the only process where you're like, okay, you have to edit, edit, edit, edit, edit, and refine everything.

And you have to refine it like you're talking to a 10-year-old. And it was kind of like a process that I was learning and I really enjoyed doing. But 10 years into it, it became like a rut. You know, you could get stuck in that. And suddenly it's very difficult to break out of that. In a world of artificial highs and harsh stimulants, there is something different, something clean, something precise, athletic nicotine,

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learn more at athletic nicotine.com slash tetra and experience next level performance with athletic nicotine warning this product contains nicotine is an addictive chemical what was the first thing that you put out into the world musically. So Galang was the first song we wrote, and the demo tape,

I decided when we got back to London that it was still not me as an artist. That I was like, now I have to scout girls to sing this. Like, I'm going to be Simon Cowell. So I scouted these three girls to BMI. That's interesting. Yes. And our first recording of Galang was me demoing to them how the vote. should be and then then replacing that vocal. So EMI at the time they had Justine's band Elastika

and so she managed to like wing me some studio time. It was like 150 quids worth and that's how much I earned like per week when I went to this shop. So I was like okay I can afford that and we went and recorded glang. So first there was a version with my vocal. And then there was a version with the girls singing. The professional singers. The professional singers, exactly. And then people started hearing my version and saying, oh, this is much more interesting. You should sing it.

And so the original galang, which is the galang that's on the album, is the original demo of me vocaling for the girls. Yes. So it's not even with the intention like, this is me and I've arrived. It's like, it's something like this. And you guys do the real thing. And that's the first song. And we put out 500 white labels. And then it got picked up on Radio 1 as the record of the week.

And I was working in a shop and I was having to do like phone radio interviews. Yeah, it was kind of crazy. And then Excel happened to be, so like my house was there, the shop I worked at was there, and Excel was like the next street. All three right in a row. Yeah, it was like a block there, a block there and a block there. So it really was quite effortless. But you didn't move there to be close to Excel.

It just was like that. It just happened to be there. The shop I was working at, there was a boys shop across the street called Supra and all the boys hung out there. and a friend of mine was working there and he said, oh, this guy came in and he says he's from this record label call X-L and he's interested in meeting you and maybe you should go and find him

and that's when I found the address and it is on the next block so I just, in my lunchtime, walked over there and knocked on the door and I was like, I think you're looking for me and it's in the documentary when Nick Hugg is like she came in and she said,

you're looking for me. And so I did. I was like, I think you're looking for me because that's what I heard. That's what you heard. And then I played it. And then I played it. Yeah.

So Nick Huggett also signed Dizzy Rascal. Yeah. And Adele. And Adele. And so he was famous because he'd signed Dizzy. You know,

it hasn't happened yet. And so, yeah, Nick signed me and then the rest is history. Yeah. You see if I had my phone, it'd be nice if we listen to that first song. Yeah, the beat is, you know, everyone involved, it's their first time making something like that. So, Ross from the Fat Truck is their music is not like that.

But he was doing something new, and Steve Mackey comes from Palt, and, you know, he makes indie music. Do you want to play it? London Toulins beat the slang now, boy say, why. One girl's say what, what? Lany Toulins, beat the slang, boy say what, Whong girl, say what, slam. Gala, gala, gala, gala, kala, kala, kala, kala, kala, kada, kada, kada, kada, kada, kada, kada da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da too late you down. you down.

Dun-dun-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Play-to-play, say la-a-lagan-laga-lan-la-pur. Purple haze, la-a-lan-la-la-pa. Play-the-face, yeah, la-a-la-la-la-pae. Who the hell is hunting you in the BMW? How the hell is having you? One-four-step and two. That's gonna get you.

Put the strings on a hurt. I'm paranoid you. Crazy you could a bit. Where the hell is hunting you? In the B&W. How the hell is hunting you? One four's coming, two thirds go and get two. Pull the strings on a her, one parent, all you.

Laze, and you call it with blaze-a-laga-lang-nang-nang-na. Purple haze, go Lange-Lang-Lang-Lang-Lang-Lah. Purple hazee, purple halle. Purple hae, Langen, bowling, speed this slang, now. Boy, say, wah. One girl, see what, what? London, bowling, speed the slang, now, boy, so what, Gail, so what,

Faye's, hey. Fivots gonna run through, work is gonna save you, When you are full, some good to help you. Don't let him get to you, if it's going to get you. Let's have your groom, sell it out to sell you. They say, if it's in the front food, what is going to save me? They're a fool-full, some could you to help you. Don't let me get to you, if it's going to get me.

Let's say it up to sell you. Blaze the blaze, la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-p purple hazeeis, can la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-ppurple hazeeyska-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-l-ha. Laze to days, galagalongna, Turface, Klanagalanga, laagalanga, Lama. Permanase,

Klanca, Lange, Lange, Lama. Lange Lange Lange. You know, M. Yeah, yeah-ha-ha-ha-ha-hi-ha-oh-you-he-oh-you-oh-ya-oh-you-oh-ya-ya-you-ya-ya-ya-ya-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha. Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, hey, hey. Oh, and oh, and oh, oh, and oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hey, oh, and oh, o'er. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you remember how you made-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-ya-ya-ye. Yeah, yeah. Hey, oh-you-we-oh-oh-oh-oh-ya-ye. Do you remember how you made the beat? Yeah, it's on the 505. Mm-hmm.

Rowland 5-5. So Peach has had that. So she's the one who introduced me. and Justine to this machine and Justine was playing the guitar and she'd never had a beat machine before and so Peaches would try to teach me it and we made this beat and like I said I had the demo and then we were like but we need somebody to take it off our machines and so we paired up with Ross from Pat Truckers who then added like the Moog bass line And, yeah, the 505 bought all the other, like, bingy-bongy sounds.

Yeah. But at the time, like, the dance song was the most progressive in beat making at the time. And they were all so very, like, stripped down. And it was like, wow, like, they're just, like, making beats from space. You know, like, they just didn't not care. And I just loved that. So, but we were like, oh, we were like, oh, one day we're going to get to making these kind of beats.

But we were doing like weird, electronic kind of avant-garde stuff because we were just like, oh, girls messing around on this thing. You know, so it was kind of like a mash-up of everything and people were like, wow, what is this thing, you know? I imagine this sounded really foreign compared to everything else that was playing at the time. Yeah, everyone's like, what is that? Yeah. And then also like your vocals, because it's so nonchalant.

Yeah. And it was nonchalant because it was just a demo. Yeah. And people thought, okay, that's her. You were demonstrating how it went. You weren't singing the song. No, I wasn't. So they were like, what is this?

Like, who is that? And then a couple of months later, I heard there was this DJ called Diplo coming into town. And I had one of his songs, his first demo. And I was like, oh, that guy gets. I was like he knows beats and I was so like um you know I was kind of like a beat junkie like I really knew my stuff and I like really hard beats so I needed somebody who understood that and even though he was making like quite like trip-hop kind of stuff he also knew the dance or stuff and the Brazilian stuff like the variations in hip-hop and that was the first

I took it to a club and was like, can you play this record? So I met him and I gave him sunshows and Galang. And then we made the Piracy Funds Terrorism Mix tape like a few months after that. So that all added to like the momentum, you know, that it was going to stay weird, that there was something else happening because it became like a movement.

And for the first time, you would go to one of our club shows and you had kids from everywhere like the indie kids and the punk kids and you know like you had the clash reference in that glang song which is weird because in hindsight I'm like wow that's mad because

I was into the clash and the clash were living in West London so their presence was around but the clash come from the area in London where my family lives I lived in the 70s when me and my sister were born. So we come from Wonsworth, and they also come from Wonsworth. And it's weird because my family story is the clash.

We were clashing the government for 35 years or something. Tell me the story. Well, so when I was born in Wonsworth, I think Clash did their first show. It was actually outside like sex pistols and the Clash. They were all performing in Clapham Junction, which is Onsworth. And then my dad has got the craziest stories.

So he was not into politics at all. As a 16-year-old, he got a scholarship to Russia because he was the smartest kid in Sri Lanka. And they put him on the first commercial flight from Sri Lanka to Moscow, which the Yuri Gagarin came from space, right, and decided that was his life mission to go around the world

and preach world peace. In the first place, he went to with Sri Lanka. And when he went there, he decided to launch a scientific program to industrialize Sri Lanka. So they set up a program where they're like, we're going to scout the smartest kids, and we're going to go and teach them science. And my dad got chosen.

And when my dad passed the exam, he thought he's going to Paris. But it was a Russian and you know, university called Patrice. And he read it wrong. He was on a plane to Moscow, completely thinking he was going to France. So he lands in the snow. And, yeah, with flip-flops on, has a massive cultural shock at 16. He was 16. He was 16. And he came from a mud hut. It's not even a town with a concrete house. He came from a farm. So he went there, and he was a bit of a math. He was a bit of a Maths genius, and he was doing space design, okay, and machine design and all of that.

And then his professor happened to be this guy who was quite clashy, and he supported a freedom fighter, and he got exiled by the Russian government. So he got fired from the university, and he had to go and live like two hours. out of Moscow. And my dad said, if I don't visit him every weekend, they're just going to kill him because that's what they do. They isolate you. And then once you have no friends, they'll just silently kill you.

So my dad was like, I made it a point to go and visit my professor every weekend and make him food and hang out with him. You know, the equivalent of what he did was if you put your name on a petition to free like Julian Assange. And the professor did something like that. the Russian government had imprisoned a guy who stood up for something. And he signed a petition saying he should be released, and that's why he lost his job. He called out an injustice and was prosecuted.

And up to this point, my dad's completely clear he's just studying design. Yeah. And he's a kid. He's a kid. And so he started going around to the professor's house. And the professor happened to be an expert in Tamil. language. What are the odds? What are the odds? So he had this incredible library of all of the ancient Tamil texts. So my dad really studied Tamil through a Russian-Jewish professor who was exiled every weekend. He started learning these books and the context, even like Baha'iqa and like all the religious texts. You know, it's like really specific stuff. It's an incredible story.

Yeah, it's crazy. And so that's how my dad got injected a tiny bit of nationalism, right? So he, like, studied this. And he was like, wow, this is actually a really old culture and it's really, like, traditional and important in the language. In Sri Lanka, he didn't know the history. No, my grandpa was like a headmaster, but they were a Catholic family. So he never studied, like, religious Hindu texts, and he's never been introduced to that.

The family had been Catholic for a long time. So my dad went and learned, like, all of it kind of thing. How long was he in Russia for? He was there for about four or five years. So, yeah, he left when he was, like, 21, 22. So he was learning all the stuff, and this is what happened. The professor started converting. the Tamil liberal ideas, like Hindu texts,

into Russian, and then selling these books. So they started making like loads of money and they would sell like 5,000 copies every weekend. And the Russian kids in the 60s, they were like, oh my God, what is this shit? They'd never been introduced to anything liberal. The same thing was happening all over the world, these ancient texts in San Francisco, for example.

It was the time for these old ideas to come back. Yes. That's what happened in the 60s. Something happened. Yeah, all over the world. All over the world, yeah. So what my dad was saying is that in the 60s, like Che Guevara would come to Moscow to do lectures.

And my dad, you know, he would listen to everybody. But at the same time, the Russians always thought, it's the Americans that are corrupting these kids with these liberal ideas. Like, where is this coming from? So they started looking for who's doing it. this, they knew it was my dad's professor who had these books. And then the professor hired my dad. It's funny calling them liberal ideas because they're ancient ideas.

They are. He wasn't teaching something new. He was teaching something old. Yes, yes. But they were considered it was unwiring the fabric of like what was happening at the time. And they were like, we have to eradicate anyone who's bringing anything new. At that point in time, was religion illegal in Russia? I don't know.

Like the 60s going on to like 65 to 70 we're talking about specifically. It may be because my dad also went to Italy and he smuggled the Catholic Bible and stuff into Russia. And that was, he said he had to do it with those like spy movies where they have to take photos of. Yeah. He was like I had to take pictures. of all 600 pages, hide it in, like, you know, stuff and smuggle it into Russia. And that was just like a Catholic Bible. I didn't even think that that was, you know, but even you couldn't go against the orthodox.

But again, it's ancient ideas. It's not, it wasn't these new, crazy new ideas. It's mad because then my dad actually at the age of 21 smuggled the professor and the whole family because of all of the stuff. And it's to do with books and knowledge as well. It's not like my dad was doing anything crazy. No, just preserving knowledge. Yes, it was just so knowledge-based.

How did he get them out? And where did he take them to? Because my dad's Catholic, when he went to Italy, to the place, you know, the cathedral and to the places to get the copies of the Bible, he knew a Sri Lankan nun who'd known him, ages before and they provided like a temporary housing for his professor's family so my dad kind of negotiated this at like 21 then went back to Russia smuggled them all out and then he left them in

the monastery with this woman being the point of contact where he was writing letters and making sure everyone was all right and at the time I found out my dad was actually in love with the professor's daughter. And that's why he was inspired to do all this crazy stuff he's doing. Because I was like, that's a lot, you know. So he flew to London and he's like, I'm going to wait here until their visa gets approved to come to London. So he left them in Italy, came to London at 21. He didn't know anyone in London, but he's working in London now in a factory. He's doing like night shifts to earn money to feed this family. Do you know how he chose to go to London?

I guess it's because he like, it's the English-speaking country and he had this engineering degree and it was like, oh yeah, you can get a job at an airplane factory and I guess they had that manufacturing capabilities at the time and needed engineers and stuff and he was going there. But he thought that they were going to be there in a month or something. But he said it turned, you know, a month into two and then it just went on and on. And in the end, the British didn't give them the visa,

but America did. And so that family left to America. And my dad was kind of like heartbroken and was stuck in London for no reason. And fast forward to Clapham Junction outside the clash and the Sex Pistols gig. He's in a pub and he's drowning his sorrow. because the girlfriend's left and said, see you later.

And he was depressed and had no money to go back to Russia because he sent it all to this family all the time. And he was like sharing bed sit with some other Tamils he'd met kind of thing. And in walks my uncle, which is my mum's brother. And he had a fashion business. And he was like, I'm looking for somebody to me. marry my sister and my dad needed money and he was looking for someone to marry his sister for what

reason uh because my my mom was on a student visa i see and it was running out in a week's time and he was like i need somebody with a visa and for some reason my dad had a longer visa yeah so if they got married they'd be able to both stay yeah so my dad was like i need the money and my mom's like i need the Lisa, and they got married, like, three days after. How long were they together for? They were together until the war kind of intensified, and my dad had to leave, you know. So they had me and my sister in London in that same situation. So this is what happened.

He wasn't political, but when they moved into a bed sit together on the day of the wedding, they accidentally moved into a house of a guy who was political. So he was like a Tamil guy who took them in. And he was like, hey, for two years, I've been trying to start a revolution. And every time I scout guys, they just keep running off. Tell me about the purpose of the revolution. What was the situation going on in Sri Lanka? So at the time, they were needing to have a revolution.

I don't know what that means needing to have a revolution. So the British left Sri Lanka. Yes. And they gave the independence back to Sri Lanka. But the whole time the British was there, they educated the Tamils as the middle classes. And they kept the Singles, which were the majority, as the working class. So the Tamil people, even though we were the minority, we had all the best jobs in the government. Okay.

So they were the civil servant. How long was the British rule? From the 1800s. And everyone spoke English. Yes. That was kind of like our national, you know, and our schooling system was like Cambridge, Oxford. Yeah. Standard. There was always visas and travel between Sri Lanka. It was a Commonwealth country, which is also why my dad had the visa. And there was a protest. And my dad's dad, my grandpa, went to this protest outside the parliament and he got beat up.

And they threw him in the canal to die. my grandpa found a hole, you know, the pipe in the canal, and he swam through the pipe and he escaped. And he was in hospital with the dislocated shoulder, broken ribs and everything. And he wrote to my dad and he's like, you need to come back here because the situation is bad, you know, and that we need people getting involved to speak to the government that this is not right. and the protests are getting violent, we don't know what to do. Explain more about what was going on, so the English leave. The English left and they gave the power back to the Singles.

And the Singles overnight decided to become quite totalitarian. I see. And they were minority as well, you were saying. No, they were the majority. So they were the 75% population, tell us for 25. And they said, oh, it's our turn to get our backs on. a hundred year of you guys being protected by the British. So now we're going to like annihilate you.

And they kind of came in and said, we're going to take away Tamil language as a national thing on street signs. Do you know if when the British left, if it was viewed as like freeing? Was that the perception? Was that now Sri Lanka is free? Yeah, because I guess we're like the back garden of India, you know, and Gandhi was such a big thing.

Yeah. And he's like, we're free and India's free. And so Sri Lanka was just like, whoa, you know, but we're a tiny island. And actually, I think Sri Lanka enjoyed having the British there. Yeah. And what you're describing it sounds like life was better when Britain was there. It kind of was. Yeah.

Because when I hear my uncles talk about it, they would be like, oh, it's so much better in the 60s. And also, like, Sri Lanka was set to become. like the Singapore of Southeast Asia, and we had so much going just before the war started. But the war starts in a very unpredictable way with a single thing. And so my dad, he really was kind of thrown into it. And he had this knowledge that he'd learned in Washington. you know. So he actually became super useful because he had more knowledge and they always invited

him to write up the manifesto and do this and do that. And so my dad, his first approach was to write a book and it was called Lankar Rani and Rani means queen and Lankar, you know, Sri Lanka. And it was a boat and it was the Exodus story of Tamils leaving Colombia. in this Exodus mission to go back to their homeland in the north because the government was like getting rid of all the tunnels from the south. So on this boat ride, you had all of these characters that represented all of the political ideologies of the time, discussing what the dream was, you know, what utopia looked like.

And... Did you say it was a philosophical book? I think so. But then it became, accidentally, it became the manifesto for the revolution, because so many other revolutionaries at the time used that book as a thing to identify. It was written metaphorically. It was written as a story. It wasn't written as, Now Go Do This.

No. It was a philosophical conversation. Yeah. Same way, you know, Bahavah Gita is a conversation kind of thing. So, like, it was just different ideologies talking. Because my dad also knew. about the political situations around the world. So he could talk about what someone like Castro would do

to what someone like the Russian government would do. You know, so he just put all of them in one boat and made them have a chat. And a lot of people drew from that and was like, okay, this is what we would do. And then from that emerged four groups that wanted to fight. And the groups were kind of like,

It's almost like represented a social one. And the tigers represented the common, poor people. And they were big in numbers. And then my dad had the elite, you know, which was the intellectuals. And they were smaller in number, but then much more like knowledgeable. So then the next 20 years became a battle between these four against the government and then these four against each other. And that's the backdrop to the record.

And I'd lived there for 10 years until I was 10. During this time? Yeah. So the war, when I was born, within six months, my dad decided to go and join the revolution. So I was six months old, and we were on the farm. And there was loads of training and this and that. So much of the day.

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Squarespace makes it easy to create and customize a beautiful website. Visit Squarespace.com slash tetra and get started today. What do you remember about childhood? Childhood was not easy because pretty soon, like, my mom was like, what is this? I didn't sign up for this. She packed up and took the kids and left. And we lived in Jaffner Town. The farm was like in the middle of nowhere.

So she moved us to a town. and put us in with her family. And we kind of grew up, she had 13 brothers and sisters. It was the whole town, you know? Yeah. And so... So the whole town was your family. The whole town was my family.

Yeah. So that was fun. Living in that town, were you aware of the war going on around you or no? Yeah, because we were outcasts, you know. What is the experience of being an outcast? So they would say, oh, these kids, you know, first of all, we didn't have a dad. And that was like a kid. unheard of thing. In the 70s, in Sri Lanka, like, the only time you didn't have a dad is

if he was dead. And then my mom raised us thinking my dad was my uncle. So sometimes when we saw him, we'd only see him like Guantzier or something. Did you know he was your dad or no? No, we didn't know. Oh, I didn't know this. This is interesting. Because it was dangerous if he was your dad? Yeah, because the army would come to our village and arrest everyone. And then they would get us because everyone knew we were the kids. We didn't know, but they knew. And they would single my mom out and the kids. And, you know, they would put us on their lap and be like,

oh, tell me what your daddy got you. And they were trick us. So my mom always was like, you don't have a dad. If somebody says, where's your dad, you just point to the sky, you know. It was just so that we didn't answer the army by saying, oh, my dad bought us, you know, an ice cream or something. But we would be like, what does dad mean? Because we genuinely didn't know.

And also the village or the town would already be like, these kids don't have a dad. So we were like, oh, we just don't have him. We kind of didn't know where he was. So when they say, where is he? We'd say we don't know. I think he's like in the sky. And then so, yeah, it's in the documentary.

Where I do say to my dad when I do first see him, I go, we didn't know you were our dad. And I was like 19. When did you go to London? I was 10. How different was that experience? Oh, yeah, it was huge. But I was really into music in Sri Lanka.

Yeah. And I was artistic, even in school. And I remember during the war, I said to my mom, I wanted to learn singing. And the war got so bad during the time I was. that the lady who did the singing lessons, she also, like, made bread. My mom was like, you can choose singing lessons or you could choose bread.

Like, you get one choice. And right now, the family needs bread, which I need a singer, you know? And so I just never took up singing. But I was growing up, and we had television. So my fashion designer uncle, from England, he bought the entire town one TV. Okay. And so he put it in our house. So once a month, the entire neighbourhood would gather like 100 people in our living room and everyone was squash.

And he bought one fridge for the whole neighbourhood and we had one TV. And we would collect like a dollar each each day. And when we got like $30 or something, thing together, the town would go and rent a VCR, you know, and then we would hire Tamil movies and watch them. But when we watched them, we had to, because we only had it for 24 hours, the VCR, we would hire 10 movies and watch them all in one go. I see. So people in the street would make ice cubes in the freezer because it was the first time they'd seen a freezer.

Yeah. And we would use the ice cubes to put on our face to stay awake. Because it was hot or just to stay awake. So we can watch all of them, right, before we have to hand it in. So consuming entertainment was like this whole process, right? And your house was the local cinema. It was. And before the war, my grandpa actually owned a cinema.

Yeah, my mom's dad. So the movie thing was a big deal. Yeah. You know. And I'd watch these movies. And the only songs we had available was the movie songs. So there was no music industry in India. There's none whatsoever.

There's none in Sri Lanka. Soundtrack songs. Yeah. So that is all you had to feed you for the whole year is whatever movie that came out. And so your input and the way you took it in and memorized it was so intense because that's the only chance you had. Yeah. You know?

So I would be like so religiously locked in. And the impact these songs had on me was, like, huge because of that reason. It was, like, so scarce. And also, we didn't move around the city and go and hang out in a mall. There was no such thing. It was a war zone, and people were getting shot all the time.

So you didn't go out of the zone. And people didn't enjoy themselves. Like, you didn't have music on all the time or, like, did stuff. You didn't dress up because you don't want to attract attention. And it was dangerous for the girls, dangerous for the boys, it was dangerous for everyone. So everyone just was like tried to be muted. So when you like huddle together in this room to consume this stuff,

it was just like transporting you into this other world. So yeah, I wanted to learn music and my mom was like, no. And, you know, and that's also a sign of the times when your music teacher has to also make bread on the side. A, to get money, but also just because the food became quite an issue. I think coming to England, it was the first time I'd sort of seen music again. And it was just like a crash course in like absorbing everything very quickly. Did you still feel that need to be muted or did you feel like now you could be free? It was totally different.

Like when I came to England, we had to live in a shared accommodation with some other families. So it was like 15 people in a house. All Sri Lankan? Yeah. So it was like all the family members that were in danger in the war zone, it sort of left. And my fashion designer uncle had saved all these people, but he was just like, now you're going to do your own thing, you know. So we were all living in this one house.

It belonged to my little cousin who was, like, learning how to play the guitar at the time. And we're like, what's that? And never seen a guitar before. And he was super white. You know, he was, like, born and bred in England. He didn't speak Tamil when he's playing the guitar. And his favorite thing with Beatles songs. And we were like, who is this kid?

And so everything we learned was through him and what he was into. He was your age as well. He was a couple years older than me. But he found us fascinating, but we had no way to communicate because we didn't know English. I see. And he didn't know Tamil. So he would just sing Beatles songs to us.

And we were like learning English through his songs. So he had like 10 records. I think when Whitney Houston Saving and My Love came out. So that's when we arrived. that was the opening to the soundtrack and my life in London was that record. Then he had all the Beatles records, he had Simon and the Garfunkel, and then Evita. So that's what I had. Yeah.

And I had to learn those really intensely and learn English through these records. Yeah, fantastic. Then they put us in school after three, four months. So all of my vocabulary came from like Beatles songs. And one day, we were in assembly, and they asked a question, I don't understand it, but everyone put their hands up, yeah. And it was like 500 kids in a school hall. And I put mine up too, because I was like, I guess she's supposed to put your hand up. And they picked me, right?

And it was basically a talent contest for them to choose. It was like the Amnesty International Talent Contest and then the winner was going to like win something. I don't know. But they were like, yeah, come to the stage and I was just like, oh my God, like this is not how it's supposed to go. And I understand it might even been like the first week of school. So it's like so daunting. And I got on stage and then they gave me a mic and I was like 10. didn't know English

and then I couldn't think of a single song and I didn't know English so I sang A Vita Don't cry for me Argentina and not even in English but just in syllables that I'd heard and this is I think it was like the craziest thing

it was very traumatic but so then they gave me a T-shirt and I'd won an Amnesty International T-shirt and that moment was kind of interesting because my choir teacher came out or music teacher and I hadn't met her at the school yet and she came out and as I got off the stage and got this t-shirt she just took me straight into choir lesson so I didn't even sit in the rest of the assembly and they took me straight into the choir room with like 30 other kids doing choir

And then we'd come out of lessons and do choir lessons whenever she needed us kind of thing. So she put me in the choir team. And that was kind of weird because I was like learning all these like Jesus songs. But it's because she obviously felt really sorry for me. And she was like, okay, this kid really wants to sing but doesn't know English and stuff. It's weird thinking back, thinking, wow, the first school I went to the first term, I was in a choir team. and so half of the lessons I didn't really do and then my drama teacher came

and because I was good at painting she took me out of classes for the rest of the day to paint like drama sets and things so between music and painting that's kind of all I was doing which is great they were supporting your interest in the arts you got lucky I got lucky because I didn't have to speak a lot

Yeah. You know, so I was like painting sets and then doing my choir singing. And then again, I was like, oh, I wish I'd gone to singing lessons in Sri Lanka during your war or even knew how to sing in English. So I thought, yeah, I'm definitely a painter. That's like, that's what I am. You know, I'm definitely an artist, but not a musician. And I think from then on, that was my thing.

Yeah. Until run DMC put out tricky. So my school was turning 10 years old, and then they needed a event to celebrate that. And they were like choosing people in each class to put together an event. And there was three girls that they chose, which was me and a Korean girl and a Pakistani girl,

and they were like, you guys are going to do like a dance routine. And we chose tricky as that song. And so we did a little dance routine on this 10th anniversary and we killed it. We won the first prize. And then we represented the school in the borough. And then we got to represent the borough in the whole of England. And they kept sending us around the country.

to do this dance routine. And it sort of changed my life because even that I didn't know how to speak English, it made me really famous overnight in the school. And then everyone was like, teach me this move, teach me that move. So we got to take this dance routine to like, I don't know,

we had to go to Liverpool or somewhere and do this huge contest. Yeah, we won like a week doing activities and all of the same. sort of stuff. And I remember thinking, well, dancing doesn't need English. Yeah. You just, you just need with them, you know, and like, that's cool. So it changed my, like, persona at school after that, and I became known as, like, the dancer

girl. So that was always part of my personality. And then it just kind of, like, as a teenager, that's also, like, why I think that was really important to me. You know, like hip-hop was so much about that. Yeah. And we'd stay up and record, like, everything. And then after that, we switched it up to the cookie crew, which was like a local girl rap group from Clapham. So we were like, okay, let's represent.

But, yeah, definitely one DMC's trickie was, like, the catalyst to, like, my, like, presence at school. and that's what I was saying, like, from that, then I started getting more into, like, harder hip-hop. You know, like, we never did anything mainstream. But it was kind of an interesting time because the late 80s was also the golden era of Jamaican dance or music, you know. And then we had our own thing, which is like jungle being born out of those two things coming together.

So it was just like the best time in London for music. as a teenager. Yeah. It was amazing. Was it more hanging out with your friends listening to music, or were you going to clubs yet? I was starting to go to clubs. And what was the club scene like?

Well, the Jamaican scene was everywhere, kind of like transcended a space. You could go to the park and that you'd have a sound system and then there'd be a warehouse or that's like people would have them in pubs or clubs. or, you know, house parties, it was kind of everywhere. The raves obviously happened in proper rave environments. And then with hip-hop, yes, you could go to a club,

but the club would go through the genres. So like every club you went to in London at the time, they would do like a 30-minute set that was dancer, 30 that's hip-hop, bit of R&B, you know, and then they close it off with a bit of soul. And then everyone leaves the club. And it was like the same kind of template. It's kind of amazing to have your teenage years with so much, you know, music.

But that is the thing, I think, coming from the war and everything. And also Tamil music is very beat and drum heavy. So it was just kind of like a natural progression to be like, oh yeah, the dance all thing and hip-hop. connects with the rhythmic aspect of what you know. Was the Tamil music, folk music or pop music? So, you know, like, you have Hindi songs that were from Bollywood. And there were a lot more like dreamy and much more like the Hindustani Raghas and stuff. It was much more about the singing and everything.

But Tamil music in the South is very much to do with the rhythm. So we have that, you know, the counting, hitting the stick and doing Baradornatium dancing. So the Baradanatium, the original classic dancing, and the music we have is called the Karnatik music. And it's all based on maths. And even our dancing is hitting your heel into the ground, making a beat. L-M-N-T, Element Electrolites. Have you ever felt dehydrated after an intense workout or a long day in the sun? Do you want to maximize your endurance and feel your best?

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And stay salty with element electrolytes, L-M-N-T. Can you play me a classic piece of demo music? Yeah. So this is a movie that came out in 1980 or something, right? That explains this music. Oh. Oh! Oh!

Oh! Ongkharan Nādha-N-A-N-A-N-A-N-Sand-a-Mau-Gan-A-Shancara-Mau-Gan-A-Shancara-ha-ha-ha- Shankarabharamu. Shankarabharamu. What are the lyrics about? It's more religious, but this is also in Telangu, which is a different dialect. It's a Tamil, but it's still in Tamil.

Is most of the music religious or spiritual? This one is a bit... is a bit religious because this movie is about a guru and it's about him trying to teach classical music but the kids are like disrespectful and I'm not disrespectful but he's trying to like pass on the knowledge and so and then And he, so this movie is about the teaching of the music. So I loved this movie when it first came out because I was like, whoa, like, it gave me so much knowledge.

It's like someone learning how to sing and stuff, I would learn about music from this film. So that's why this was a very important movie for me. But yeah, I just always noticed that there was a difference in the sound of, like, the tombs and the bass, like, kick drum and these kind of things in Tamil music as opposed to Hindi music. So I just knew that there was another drum. And so when I made Kala, that was my first trip back to India and to find what that is. Did you go back to Sri Lanka?

I went back to Sri Lanka in 2001 before 9-11. And what was the feeling there compared to your childhood experience? Well, you know, I just came out of art school. So when I went back, everyone's like, like, what's happening? And really, I... Had the place changed? First of all, I didn't get up to the north to where I came from. They wouldn't allow me.

But I was kind of brave. So I was like, no, I'm good. going to go, you know. But when I'd arrived, this crazy event had happened where this teacher was attacked in broad daylight at the roundabout in like Times Square equivalent in the capital by like all these army soldiers. And there was a massive riot and protests in the street for women's rights because all the army soldiers got acquitted. So we were having the Rodney. king equivalent in Colombo at the time to do with this female teacher that had been raped in broad daylight.

And I didn't know this, but we landed and my mom was like, you're not going out. You know, she locked the door and she locked me in the house. So then I was there. She knew that it was going to influence me quite a lot. And I was like, I need to go to this protest. Like, well, yeah, she really tried to control that. But I was like, I'm going to do something about it, you know. And then I would find basically everyone in the street in all the neighborhood and everything,

in the capital, they were all some sort of family that had been affected, you know. Like everyone had a story. So I was like, wow, I don't even have to go. all the way to the north, even if I look on this street, there's enough people that are like, my son's in jail, my sister was killed, my husband's missing, my dr-da-da, every single door I knocked on. And then I was like, wow, this is crazy. That's the documentary I tried to make, you know, but I wanted the shots.

So I was going to go to the Tiger Territory, I'm going to get into their camp, and I'm going to film like what they're doing because I was curious about what 20-something-year-old girl was like in the movement as opposed to the way I was living in art school. And it could have been your life. Yeah, so my cousin, who was my age, he went missing. So that's where MIA comes from. So they wrote and said, he's been found. And then they're like, no, no, no, he's dead.

And then they're like, no, no, he's found, but he's in a vegetative state and doesn't remember who he is. And there were so many mixed stories. So I was like, okay, I'm going to make a documentary. It's called MIA. I'm going to go to Sri Lanka. I'm going to find him. Yeah.

And I'm going to figure out everything else as well in the meantime, you know. And so when I got there, it was just so much bureaucracy, you know, like. You had to have a visa to go down the street to buy a pint of milk if you're a Tamil and you had to like get the thing and get that and get the stamp, report at the police station, have the police come and check your bag before you can leave. Like it was all crazy stuff that you just could not live. And everybody was just so like muted. And I remember having an M&M CD and I was in the war zone and I'm like, listen to this.

you know, like, it'll make you feel something. Yeah. And people are like, no, no, no, no, don't put it on. Don't put it on. Everybody's in fear. Yes. I took out like a nail polish and I was like, do you want this? And they were like, no, no, no, take it away from me

because it would look like I'm making an effort and I'm attracting attention. And I was like, wow, this is crazy. And then I went to join the Tigers. And I was like, I want to cross over, like, into the territory. And I think this is when, I don't know, when Mary Colvin, she was a journalist, that went and she got shot in the eye. And I'm like, you know, I want to be a journalist. I need to go and interview them or film it or something. And they were just like, no, you can't go.

And then just as I was... Did you want to go to learn more? Tell me what you were thinking. I felt really guilty that I was having this life in England. And all the girls that I'd gone to school with were experiencing a totally different fate. Yeah. So somehow you escaped. Yeah. You felt guilty that why were you the one that got out? Is that right?

It was a bit like why was I the one to get out? But it was also like I don't want to just forget that they're there. So I went back and I was like, what can I do? but everyone's just like just don't do anything just leave you know and be grateful yeah

also by going back you were drawing attention to them which they probably didn't want so they were like wait you're walking around here with the Puma t-shirt on and that was banned yeah and then you had like some

camo like cool shit that you got from like whatever you know Notting Hill market and you have no idea how this impacts us you know And then that bit of dyed hair of yours, like it looks like you're a Tamil Tiger girl that's been in the jungle, in the sun, and their hair grows brown because they have no choice. They've been like in the jungle, in the sun, and they got brown hair. And you just come in here saying it's fashion because Kate Moss has got it, and you're just going to get us killed, you know.

That's interesting. Yeah. And you'd have no way in knowing that. No. So it's all stuff you're learning because you get stopped at the checkpoint and then just like, what's up with your brown hair? And you're like, what, like, have you not seen Vogue? You know? And they're just like...

And so my mom was just like, you're a light bulb, liability. You're staying indoors and I'm locking the door and throwing away the key. You know, so I had to kind of like learn about everything. And then by the end, we were like, okay, let's go back to London. And they blew up the airport. The government part of the war planes in the international. International Airport and the Tigers did the suicide mission and blew up all the war planes. So the airport shut down and I couldn't leave.

And so I was there for another month. That's unbelievable. Yeah. And I was kind of like, well, fair enough because the news I'd got the whole time I was there was that the reason why I couldn't see my childhood house is because they were deploying these fighter planes and bombing the north of the time. So I got to know the fighter planes really well and know about them really well because I was learning about what was happening and why I couldn't go there.

You know, like I knew how many they bought, what year they were made, like how much it cost the government, like, you know, all of that. So when they blew it up, I was like, well, they did spend a long time saying, please don't do that because you're bombing schools and hospitals and civilian areas and it's a no-fly zone. and they didn't listen and this is like cause and effect

in a war you're as bad as the monster you're fighting I understood that the reason why the Tamutigas were called ruthless is because the government was ruthless your gauge and the range of

ruthless you are it's dependent on what you're fighting and you can't call one side ruthless without knowing why they're like that So then I was watching the news and on the BBC they're like, oh, the tigers bombed civilian planes and here's all these like crying tourists running. And I was like, but that's just not true because I was there.

And it was like three in the morning and nobody was at the airport. And they were just like running these like weird clips, you know, and it's a propaganda thing. And I was like, wow, that's mad. You know, so my London friends would call me and be like, we saw this, we saw this, We saw that. And I'd be like, but that didn't happen. I don't know. Just how I opened my eyes, that was my awakening moment to how the world runs.

And I was like, okay, I can't join the Tigers. Either I could be a journalist or, you know, I need to make this documentary and figure out what to do because I feel really bad for, my cousins and people that are living like this. You know, this is their youth. And, yeah, I came back. And, you know, at that age, I knew that taking drugs wasn't an option, but that was the scene in London.

You know, when I got into music, I was like, I don't have the luxury of all of that. You know, like, you still have, like, a seriousness. Yeah. And it's not for fun. It is like journalism. Would you say you're primarily an activist and that it comes out through different forms of art? Not really because I love music and all aspects of music.

Yeah. And you like making different kinds of music as well. I do. And I like... It's not only documentary replacement music. It's not. And I like the thing that music taps you into yeah and that's so vast but I felt like I had a role in that precise moment

to do that yes because it wasn't a selfish drive it's not like I want to be a musician it was like there's something urgent this thing is working and I'm not forcing it you know and I was kind of coming out of some Martins I was creative and doing everything but The music thing was my last on the list. How did you get into St. Martin's? I just blagged it. Tell me how. So I started to come into L.A. a lot because the music drew me here.

So I was learning. Before St. Martins? So before St. Martins, I was doing GCSEs. And someone is when they came up with that theory if you listen to music, you can revise more. That was an invented theory in the 90s. And I was like, amazing. So I'd listened to, like, hip-hop or R&B while I was doing homework. And what I realized is that by the end of the exams,

I was so versed on the songs and not really what was in the books. And so the day my results came out, I just got on a plane. And I'm like, I want to go and meet the people who made this thing. You know, I want to go where they are. So I got a plane ticket to Los Angeles. My thing was that I'm going to meet Snoop Dog, you know. How old were you at a time? Oh, I must have been like 17.

Do you have other friends who had come to Los Angeles your age? Yeah, I had a cousin who was my age. I see. And she was already here. I hadn't seen her since the war in Sri Lanka. So she left and came to California and I left and went to London at the same time. And then we hadn't seen each other. So when you came to California, did you see her?

Mm-hmm. She picked me up at the airport, and then we were in all the clubs, meeting everyone. Good experience? Yeah. I mean, I loved it. It was the best. We were out all the time, met all the rappers. I got to see the Fugees at the time when they were like coming up.

Great. Met. Pretty much all the rappers. the rappers. My 21st birthday, I went to Naza's album launch. So I was coming here all the time. So every time when I came here, I'd miss my chance to go to the uni I wanted because I would just miss the application process, you know, didn't care. So I went back and I had to go to a uni, otherwise my mom was going to kill me. So I was standing at the bus stop one and it was outside St. Martin's, and I'm like, I'm going to go here.

And I just... Was it a hard school to get into normally? Yeah, the hardest. But I just made a decision that's where I'm going to go. And then I just called up the art department every day, exactly at the same time, like 137, you know? And I was like, hey, I'm looking for this. head of the art department and I found him and then just called him every day and he's like

every time I try to bite into my sandwich I get this annoying phone call like what are you doing and I was just like please just give me a chance I just need 10 minutes to come and like convince you I need to study film at this school it was the head of fine art and he was like fine like I give you 10 minutes and you can bring your work and bring your portfolio. And then, so the next day I walked in and I had nothing. Because I didn't do the course that you're supposed to do before you get in. Yeah.

And I had terrible grades. And I didn't have like work experience and stuff. And he kind of spat his sandwich out and he started laughing. He's like, are you joking? Do you know how many people like suffer to get into this course? Like we have 16,000 applicants for 20 space. and you could just waltz in here with nothing, right? And I was like, I just know I'm gonna make the best movie out of all the other people you've let in.

Yeah. I also can't comprehend that one human being has the power to say yes or no, to change the direction of a human being's life. And I was like, on paper, the person I am is I could either be a drug dealer or a prostitute or work at Tesco's or be on the adult and have loads of kids claiming benefit. This is my future. So I'm going to get on that bus outside this college, go to Kings Cross, which was like the notorious area for crackheads and prostitution. And I was like, I'm going to go and do that. And if I become the craziest criminal or a home,

could get arrested and go to jail. My film is still going to be a bad film. And then he was like, that's emotional blackmail, you know? And I was like, but it is true. Like, you have the power to change somebody's life right now. He was like, okay, just go home. And then when I went home, he called like 20 minutes later. And then he said, I had a chat with the art department

and you're really lucky. One person dropped out because they're going. got sick and can't come anymore, and we're going to give this place for you. Amazing. It was so weird. And I was just like, whoa. And then, you know, he... You willed it to happen.

I did. And he said to me when he left, because after that he retired, he said, you know, we gave it to you because we decided that you got hook spa. And I had to go and look up what that meant. You know, there was no Google at the time. And basically, he said, you know, At the end of the day, everybody who came into this art school followed the rules to get in. Yeah.

But that's not who we're looking for. We want people who don't care about the rules. And so we believe you that you might actually do something. And that's what he said. And how was the experience of school? Yeah, it was amazing. I loved it. It was just no rules, you know.

It wasn't practical, so it's not like going to UCLA. It was very conceptual. So you'll sit there and talk about, why Goddard or, you know, like Derek Jarman filmed a blue screen. A real art education. Yes. It was interesting. We learned about movements and artists and the concept of being anuteur, you know,

and like being strong about where you're coming from. And I was kind of into technical stuff as well. Like I wanted to learn those things, you know, material filmmaking and this and that. I wasn't so into the surreal things, but I think I found certain artists who pushed boundaries because they believed in something and sticking to that was very useful then

when I became a musician, you know, because if your idea is not strong, you're just weak and you'll, you know, you will fall for anything. So I think that those years at St. Martin's, definitely strengthened, you know, like don't come to the table unless you have a strong idea vibes. And I knew that already. And it was the same for music. Like I wouldn't enter the music territory if there was nothing new you're bringing to it. Like it had to matter. Do you think of yourself as spiritual? Oh yeah. Everything is coded in my life.

I just have the revelation in certain moments when, I guess, God decides you're ready to have that information. But everything is already what it is. And I'm just connecting dots and going, oh, my God, oh, my God, like all the time. But everything is as is, and it is. And it's quite bizarre, like even going through being a Christian now, right? It doesn't make me any less the thing I was. Suddenly I don't lose all that. Did you convert to Christianity?

I got baptized, yeah. I wouldn't call it a conversion, but I'd accepted being a Hindu before. But what I realize is that everything is always present. you know, it's not so cut and dry, like now you're in this phase. It's just a different way of understanding and a different way of existing. And right now, this makes the most sense in my life. And the Hindu phase was so chaotic, but I had the energy to deal with that and make sense of it.

Also, like, it's just a bit of myself I'd never paid attention to. Because, like I said, my father's family was Catholic, and my mom's a Christian, and my grandma, her mom was a Christian, but I never just... Was there an event or a moment that brought you back into this? Yes, so I had a vision of Jesus Christ, and... How long ago? It was, like, 2.17. Can you describe it? Yeah, so I met you after.

that. And when I met you, I was still in that transitional period. So I would still say I was 50-50 and which is why the Marta record was called M-A-T-A and it was a 50-50 record. And it was a 50-50 record and it was a journey where I was coming out of the chaos and trying to come to this other place. But I couldn't fully describe what that place was. but I had the vision and I knew it was real. So this is another thing about the music industry when people say, oh, talk about how terrible the music industries

or what happened. I can't because for me it was always a spiritual situation. But, you know, I always had this other bit where I was like, what is this? Of course, there's the political thing and there's the artistic thing, there's like the funny thing or there's like you messing with society and like making things happen.

But there's always this like respect for some weird spiritual presence that I was like, there's something, but didn't know what. And then, you know, I heard the saying you're a citizen of the world and your religion is to do good. And I was like, that's a great slogan. That is what I am. I'm going to live by that. And that's going to be my mantra.

And so I didn't really think more about that. And then I made Kala under that spiritual idea that it's just like everything goes. Then I made the Maya album, which was much more about Islamophobia. And it was my connection to Islam, even though I'm not Muslim. I was like, they're going through something. Like, what is this? You're related to their struggle. Yes.

So I was like, you know, they need a war. And even though they would reject me because I'm not a Muslim and I do everything wrong, like I'm smoking weed or going out, I'm at club music and, you know, all of the stuff. But I sympathize and empathize with this group of people that's going through this thing. And that was the beginning where I was fighting for that thing so hard, even though I wasn't religious. and that was like the beginning where I started like

feeling something weird you know and I started feeling like a presence of something and I would start seeing things that I couldn't explain

but it was still kind of beautiful and I was like what is going on would you say it was channeling I don't know what it was but my album was called Maya and that's like the post war. So the Sri Lankan War came to an end the year I made that record. And I was extremely depressed. And I also made that in America. And I never knew about the Christian side of life

or conspiracy theories or the dark side. And I remember signing sleigh bells. And they came around to my house and they graffered a pentagram on my studio wall. And my other artist at the time, he was like, you know what that means? And I'm like, no, I just thought it's like rebellion and anarchy or whatever. It's kind of close, you know. I didn't know what it was. And he's like, no, that's like a symbol that represents like a portal, you know. And it's like spirits can come and go through the same.

thing. And so I was like, well, what is this? You know? And so when I look back at the Maya album, it sounds kind of confusing because the human part of me was going through like loss and tragedy and then also birth of my son, which was like the opposite. And then the spiritual aspect, it's like you're still dealing with talking about a demographic of people. and just all people who might be like controlled or some sort of like something but I didn't know what and it was more like

I guess it's just why I was channeling in California like people in California needed to talk about privacy you know and tech whereas it wasn't my thing but that's just what I picked up on and that's just what came out on the record but Maya on a spiritual level means the same it's illusion and it's about deception

and breaking through the lies and all the artwork for it was tunnels and I was just naturally describing it without really thinking about it and all the artwork for all the songs was about going through this tunnel going through this tunnel and it's like and then it dawned on me that Maya afterwards

it dawned on me that Maya's not my real name and it was a fake name and that I shouldn't name that record Maya because it's not real. But then that is what that was describing, something that's not real. So I was like, oh, maybe it's really great that everyone hated it because they're supposed to resist the Maya.

And I was like, that's perfect. And then, you know, everyone's like, you need to get out of music, you're really shit, because this is a really terrible record. And I was like, yeah, but you don't understand the big picture. It's actually perfect. You know, like how it made sense afterwards. I don't know any of this while going through it.

But having come out, you're just like, whoa, that's actually pretty on point. And then that is the only once I accepted that because I was like, I have to self-therapy. So I can't traumatize everyone else just because I feel traumatized by the war coming to an end. that's not a good thing but I can let go and one of the ways I can let go is to remember that every Tamil who died is a Hindu and it's going to be born again so it's fine just embrace Hinduism for them and just pray that their souls and spirits don't come back to earth because they believe in reincarnation, that they don't come back and perpetuate the same trauma on the human race.

And so I was like, oh, there must be a process that spirit goes through to clean itself before it comes back, I think. So I was like, oh, I'm going to just focus on that for a few months, you know? So I went to India and I was like, I think it's really, fascinating that you would die, then something has to happen where you lose that memory or you learn from what you've experienced. Like, where is this, they go? And while I was there, we were doing like a photo shoot and some guy was like, what green do you want? And we're like, it's the type of green. And I remember my mama would say parrot green. So we went on Google

and we put parrot green to give him a picture and it popped up my real name. Matangi, who was the goddess of music, and we're like, oh my God, you know. And her mantra was AIM, which is MIA backwards. Yeah, and her middra was middle finger. And I'd just been kicked out of America for the middle finger. Just playing kicked out of America?

Well, you know, I went on the Super Bowl. Yeah. And like... The halftime show? Yes. And then I got sued for the middle finger because I was like, we didn't give a shit like that. So the NFL was suing me for $16 million.

They were suing you? Yeah. This is a crazy story. So I was doing the show with Madonna. That's also funny thing. She's called Madonna. And my real name, M-A-T-H-A, it means Madonna, too. It's Mary.

Yeah. But I didn't even think of that until this year. Like, that's what I mean. Sometimes things are just there. Yeah. But you just get shown things like when it's right, you know? Anyway, so I did this thing with Madonna and she was like, so on the show you did a hand gesture.

I did a hand gesture and I didn't really compute how big the Super Bowl was. I'd never watched it before in my life. Yeah. And I'd never gone to. an American football game or anything like that. Was it a preconceived thing or it just happened in the moment? It just kind of went with the lyrics. Do you remember what the lyrics were?

I didn't give a shit. Oh, okay. Pretty punk. Yeah, yeah. Didn't think anything of it. Yeah. And then it was just like, the most explosive thing. And I was like, whoa, I did not see that coming.

But then I found this deity that was called this and her mudra was the middle finger, and her mantra was MIA backwards. Amazing. And I was like, and she was versed in 64 arts, which is called Calla, and that's my mom's name. So it all makes sense after. It always makes sense after.

Yeah. And you never know what you're going to go through, and then you go through it, and then it tells you that. Whatever happened with the NFL? They dropped the case. Good. Yeah. I'm shocked that they sued you.

Because I said I will make a documentary. about it. That's why they dropped it? Yes. I see. So the documentary thing is still useful. So threats have worked out well for you. It got you into school.

Yes. It got them to drop a lawsuit against you. Yes. I'm very scary, you know, obviously. What would you say you're afraid of in the world? Well, I think that after that being really comfortable and then one day I had a vision of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. And, you know, and I found out that Matangi also was like the goddess of spoken word,

which I thought was like rap music or something, you know, and poetry. But also truth. And me supporting WikiLeaks and freedom of press and saying connected to the Google, connected to the government, because it's true. Even though I know that it's detrimental to my career, I just had to say it because it was true. And like that, the vision of Jesus Christ, it was true. Like, I wasn't hallucinating. I think most artists are supportive of Julian Assange, no?

Do you know any artists? They are now. I was going to say, do you know any artists who are not? But in 210, 211, it was kind of like still a bit taboo. I see. But, you know, I made a WikiLeaks mixtape in 2010. I was kind of very public with it kind of thing. Anyway, so when I had the vision, even going back to someone like Julian Assange,

she doesn't really believe in God or is very, like, logical person to be like, I had a vision of Jesus Christ was very annoying, you know, and I visit him in jail. Julian, not Jesus. Julian, yeah. I had to be like, I saw Jesus. And he's like, it doesn't exist, you know. Well, you saw it. So obviously.

I saw it. So I have to, even him, I have to. You have more information than he does. I understand. Like, I just know that everyone in my life is like, what are you talking about? You know, including my family. So I was like, oh, this is. Yeah.

It's interesting. Exactly. So I was like, yes, and they're like, why would it happen to you? You're a musician. Like, you don't go to church. But I don't know why it happened to me. Then I was like, you're right. Like, why?

And it is about speaking truth. And Jesus Christ is, that is what you can say about him, is that he is about that. You know, he's about the truth. And there's no bells and whistles with it. It's not like Hinduism. It comes with like so much decoration or the Egyptian gods or, you know, Jesus is nothing.

Yeah. And he's so boring in that sense, you know, like in a creative sense. but it's like pretty amazing and my journey in it has been I listen to this pastor who clarifies a lot of things you know so it's not just the stories of the past but explains like the world we're in right now and it just makes sense you know he says that you can have heaven on earth and a lot of people find this very very controversial statement and I've already experienced all of the backlash around me for saying this,

but his whole thing is Jesus died so we can inherit what he intended for us and that there was a race between Jesus and Satan to implement the will that they wanted for the human race, but only one of them died, which means that's the will that we inherited. So Satan has to come back to earth and convince everyone it didn't happen and that we didn't inherit that and that everything is terrible and a lot of people get confused and they stay in their trauma and we stay in the conflict and we stay and I'm not saying that world doesn't have conflict the world always has conflict and creation destruction and God has wrath and all of that

But at the same time, half of the trauma and despair, we can overcome it if we know that we've already inherited the will of Jesus Christ, not the will of Satan. And that is that. That feels good. It feels great to know that. That means you can just have it. It's there, you know. And even understanding all the other spiritual things that I've been through already, it's like that whole Egyptian thing. the Egyptian religion is like really chaotic,

but it's the same chaos as Hinduism. And you can see that that's why a monotheic Abrahamic religion came after all of these crazy ones because it's just like seems like a natural progression. But it's like just as like the timeline goes from one religion to the other, I just see that we're living in this. Like, yes, this was totally relevant 6,000 years ago. This was relevant 3,000 years ago.

But around me right now, this is the one I'm tapping into, and it makes sense. And all the streams lead to the same ocean. It's all essentially a version of the same thing. It's true. It's true. Tell me the principle behind clothing with metal in it. Well, it's a combination. So it is a yoga principle because yogis would drink out of copper bottles. And it's kind of like, you know, just grounding the water and it's antibacterial.

And it's like it just makes it more neutral when you consume it. So when I was in India in 2015, somebody gave us a copper bottle and explained that. And I'd never heard of it before. And I was like, oh, that's really amazing. How do I fit stuff like this into my life? And I was always been curious. And then one day I went to visit Julian Assange at the embassy when he was in the embassy. And I met a guy who had this fabric and he was making wallets.

So I remembered that. What were the wallets for? It was to kind of get you off grid. I see. So he was a journalist, I think, and he was going to Afghanistan or something. And he was like, oh, journalists would really need this. So that was my introduction to Nickel. And then a friend of mine called Adam Harvey.

He did an art piece where he made a burqa, made out of this fabric, and it was in the New York Museum and I bought it and I was like, oh, this is really brilliant and then he, I don't know what happened to him, he didn't really do anything with it and that was like ages ago, like eight, nine years ago or something. But I think the fabric was so expensive back then

it was such a novelty. His whole thing was about stealth mode and anti-dronware. So that was another thing. And so I'd always been interested in, fabric with function is kind of amazing, but it's just not affordable. And people always said, oh, why don't you have a brand? And I was like, but I would need a brand that's like doing something.

Yes. You know, like why add to pollution unless there's a purpose? And then when I was away, I realized my son is also getting older. He's a teenager. He's always on the gadget. And, you know, I'm not going to get him away from California and make him live in a cave. It's not going to happen. I've lost that war. You know, he's at school here in America. He uses the phone to order food, convenience, Uber's. He goes to the classroom. They use laptops now. Not a, you know, slate, like, when I was at school. So I was like, how do I get around this? So it was just like a combination of all these things. I was like, I want him to wear tracts with bombs where he could put a laptop on his lap

and I'm still going to have grandchildren. So the clothing protects you from radiation, EMF, many man-made negative impacting energies. Yeah, because we're not going to undo it. And the tech world is saying, it's fine. We can have that capacity to consume all of these extra frequencies, right? Because they're saying, we're already electrical beings. And I get that.

So when Elon Musk says, you don't have to worry about EMF, but at the same time, it's the scale of it. So I went to India last year, and a friend of mine was like, you should have a brand, you know, and she expected, like, crazy H&MF. Topshop kind of like accessible, Indians can buy it brand. And I tried for a month to go around and look at factories and it just didn't gel. Everything was difficult.

And then I got to Indonesia and my cousin came and she said, oh, you know, six years ago you came and gave me a parcel to put in the garage. And she said, I'm moving out. So here's your package. And so six years ago, apparently I went and left this parcel. When I opened it up, it was this fabric. And I'd ordered it from China and just left it in a garage and forgot about it. And I was like, oh, that's the past me leaving something for the future to me.

Sometimes that happens where I don't even remember. Yeah. And so that was it. Yeah. And it came right at the right time. Right at the right time. I took that fabric. just made something happen and it just kind of like everything clicked into place.

So how long ago did you start the breath? We launched last June. But you know, this is also like it goes hand in hand with my spiritual experience because I was doing this in-between thing, you know, of like how do I be this new me without losing the old me, you know, or am I supposed to? I don't know. it's like does Jesus save you because you were already doing the right thing or did he save you to make you not do that anymore and do a different thing like how confusing and so then I found

this pastor and he was like yeah you're going to do this thing in 90 days this business and everything's going to like you know click into place and I don't know the words were so powerful. I just like, yeah, that just makes the most amount of sense. And before that, I was listening to a lot of podcasts and having like a social understanding of everything and really kind of becoming overwhelmed with what was happening after COVID and everything and thinking like, what do you do to help people. and then he's like it will reveal itself and it's going to happen and it's going to happen in 90 days and then I was like okay all I have to do is just give it a chance you know and then with 90 days

we designed the logo made the clothes dyed the thing made the website launched the brand in 90 days amazing yeah it was pretty like supernatural the only place the clothes can be bought now are on the website at the moment yes but obviously we're going to go into like phase two like trying to get it It's brand new. Yeah. It's a baby. How many different pieces do you make? At the moment, we have about 35 to 40 things.

And people love it. Yeah. You know, a lot of people want kids clothes. Yeah. It's completely different than what anyone else is doing. It's so different. It's also very new. So people are like, what is this?

Like, we don't even need this. And even if people don't care about the function of it, it feels very forward. It feels science fiction. It is. It's moving the dial on fashion. It's very difficult to express this in such a short time because we are a small time scale, but the function is not even just singular function.

It does have anti-tech, anti-servalance function, that all our bags get you off grid. And then it has this other antibacterial, blah, blah, blah, and protects you against the image. and protects unborn fetuses and stops all the rest of it. While we are in the most exponential growth tech period of our time in human history, you know, where even in this government where they're saying, hey, 500 billion is going to go into AI and the tech industry, not the climate industry,

not health care, not education, into tech. So imagine how much more we are going to be relying on that, you know, because everyone has to make that $500 billion. And interestingly, it's high-tech clothing. Totally. It's understanding where we are, what time we're in, and going, okay, we're going to provide a solution. It's not a battle.

Even though like you make armour and when you put armour on, you go into battle. But the battle here is information, is to bring people knowledge, you know, because people die from lack of knowledge and lack of information. And if tech invades our life to bring us information, and that's their whole thing. It's like, this is about information. And we're living in information age, then it's important that people are informed. about the ways to protect their bodies and choosing

when to be in this, you know, taking mind. Do you wear the clothing every day? I do actually, yeah. And how has the experience been since you've been wearing it? Like when I sleep in it, it's amazing. Yeah. You know, like I think something must be happening. And also to test the clothes, I moved into a smart home.

Like, I'm very anti-smart homes, but the place I've rented, everything is so technological. And so I, when I wear it in bed, especially now we're in L.A. after the fires, they're going to be building smart homes and smart cities. To me, it's like, you know, it's a second skin to be in an environment like that. Like, I need it, you know? Yeah. Yeah, we also don't know with any new technology. We don't know the long-term effects. At one point in time, asbestos was this new scientific discovery that was cheap insulation

that was going to keep the world warm and turned out to be not so healthy. Yeah, and we have technology like all around us. Like, it's in our pocket. Then it's in the sky with the satellite. And I don't even think, like, this is evil. I don't even think like that. You know, I think everything has a balance, you know. And so

I do think that some of the technology reveals God and brings us closer and has a positive impact. But I do think there's people that will abuse it, you know, and that we've seen that. We're living in that time where you're seeing this. And it's like, you can't really live in ignorance and pretend it's not happening. And I don't know, sometimes I like wearing other clothes and colors, but it's not like Omni can't occupy that space either.

So pretty revolutionary for keeping humanity going. Yes. You know? Like, that's the aim here is that as much as people believe that this is the end of the world and we're in a dire situation. I think it's possible to have heaven on earth and that humanity can survive. Tetragrammatin is a podcast.

Tetragrammatin is a website. Tetragrammatin is a whole world of knowledge. What may fall within the sphere of tetragrammatin? Counterculture? Tetragrammatian. Sacred geometry. Tetragrammatin. The Avant Garde.

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