Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Mike White

Episode Date: January 7, 2026

Mike White is a writer, director, producer, and actor best known as the creator of HBO’s acclaimed series The White Lotus. He began his career writing and producing TV shows including Dawson’s Creek and Freaks and Geeks, later writing and acting in films such as School of Rock and Nacho Libre. Premiering in 2021, The White Lotus has received widespread critical acclaim across its seasons with numerous Emmy and Golden Globe nominations for drama series, writing, directing, and acting categories. His career, spanning three decades, is defined by a consistent focus on character, tone, and social observation across film and television. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Athletic Nicotine https://www.athleticnicotine.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Squarespace https://squarespace.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://drinklmnt.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ AG1 Use code 'TETRA' ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter

Tetragrammaton. I did have my past lives, this whole past life, where they do your past life thing, where you do your past life, it's really, it's sure you do your past life. It's surely my Clayne was a friend of mine. She was like, she made me go to New Mexico and I did this for like five days. And like the past lives are all about like so much of it is about how you died. Like how each, at least this is what this one thing was.

Like, and how much how you end it has to do with what you're still dealing with. And that like, like the end is important. And like, and in fact, like in this, I mean,

I'm not, I'm not co-signing on this, but I, but that's, was just the philosophy was that like you know they used light some kind of like color therapy or whatever so that like you remember the death and then like you think of a color and then the color somehow heals or like somehow it provides some kind of catharsis so that then that death is sort of lifted off of you so you're not like still dealing with the fallout from the death

or whatever so it's just yeah I mean whether you believe that or not it's just like as a storyteller it makes sense that like you know you're always trying to figure out what is the satisfying ending for your story like what is the conclusion yeah and you think about life as this journey to death i want for my friends and i want for my family and i want for myself a a cushy like you know like a soft landing i don't want to like you know it's like as you get older and you experience more people dying there's very few deaths that aren't kind of of grim or that you go through the process of dying is also a part you know it's it's it's about loss you lose things along the way i mean especially when you're young and healthy you look at that and be like oh my god this is like so depressing do you mean because you see people lose their hearing

their ability to like control their bowels of all these things that are some sort of humiliation but i guess but maybe as you actually experience those things maybe that's a part of letting go of this life you know like it's like getting used to the idea of losing someone they you slowly lose them you know you can run from those bad feelings but they they'll find you have you had any people close to you past i mean i yeah i've i've had a pretty good run as far as in general not had like major tragedies my parents are still alive i've had friends that have in the last couple years, but I haven't been knocked on my knees over something. How did you meet Shirley MacLean?

Sherely McLean met at a party, and, like, I was just, you know, like, I was a fan, so I started talking to her, and then, like, she was always, like, trying to get me to do, I was always interested, because I knew she, you know, I knew she was into metaphysical stuff, so I was always, like, trying to pick her brain books. Yeah, she was, like, out, you know, out on a limb. And, I mean, she is, like, next level as far as just, like, somebody who's not known, you know, beyond just, like, as a movie star, like, you know, known all these big characters over all these decades. But, like, she also knew, like, spiritual leaders and political

leader. I mean, she was very, like, she had, like, tentacles into all of these different worlds and was, like, you know, she's a primary source. So she's a trip. So anyway, like, I would always bug her about it. She'd be like, I'm not talking about this anymore. You're going to have to get your past lives done. And so, like, she said it all up. But, yeah, so she's... Tell me how it started. You went to a place to do this? Yeah, she was like, so in Galasdeo, New Mexico, there's this place called The Light. I don't even know if it still exists, but there's a place called the Light Institute. And it, like, literally looks like a janky, B movie, like, sci-fi movie from the, like, 60s or something.

Like, the buildings are all, like, totally kook. And, like, everybody looks, you know, like, the woman who did that, she has, like, shock white hair and blue eyes. And, like, I got there, and they were like, oh, yeah, you know, they're talking about it. They all have seen extraterrestrial. She's like, you know, it used to be exciting. Now I just see them and I just leave them alone. I don't care of it. You know, it's like, I'm just not that guy.

I'm curious, but I'm not, I'm a skeptic or whatever. And then they put me in this like circular room with all these animal pelts and like bongo drums and like it was super hot and I had partied the night before. I had come to Galisia. I was like, I think it was coming off like an Adderall bit. I don't know what. So like I was in this thing and I was like it was like I was being cooked in a tangene. or something. Like, I was so hot.

Was it a sweat lodge? Well, she was, I was just waiting to go in there, but it was just hot outside, and I was in this thing, and I was just like, I was probably dehydrated or whatever. By the time I got in there and was on the bed, I was like, the perfect way to go, because I was just so open and brain, like, in a brain rot anyway, so I was just like ready to go. Like, the first time that I was with this woman, it wasn't about past lives. It was just about memories of this life where she would say, connect with certain parts of yourself. And I had never done anything like that

where I was thinking about memories that I hadn't had, you know, like I really hadn't unpacked since I was a little kid and crying and just like having this like really intense relationship to the child's self. And I was like, I came out of it. I was like, this is like, it was so cathartic. And I was like completely sobbing and like, and so then I signed up to do the five days.

So I like just did that one little session. And then I was like, okay, I'm in it. And then I went back and I was like, like this is like it was like a second date and you're like why did I think that first day was so good it was like how are you going to get through this like I was just say it was so awkward and then but it was actually really formative in some way and I had I came home and like if you go to my house now there's paintings of all the different past lie I had this artist do the lives and so there's all these different lives done in the stuff like if it's a Japanese life it's like done in these

kind of Japanese prints and it's like yeah I just I love I I don't whether I believe in past lives or not, I love the idea of not being too attached to your form, that you are this, you're part of this proteum creation and you're coming into the world in this form, but this is not you, and that you've been all these other forms, you've been a Cuban woman, or you've been a Chinese, you know, leader, or, you know what I mean? And so that this self that you have is not intrinsic to yourself. You know what I mean? It's a Buddhist kind of or whatever. It's like a, you know, it's an Eastern sort of philosophy. And I think that that is, whether it's true, it's helpful. And I think it's also a way to experience others to see them in this, you know, that they are you.

And these elements that feel like they're, you know, these inherited elements that that we find to be othering or whatever, that really that's just, It's just yourself in a different form. Do you feel changed by that experience? Yeah, I don't know if it changed me in the sense of, like, I am, you know, I was a believer or something. But I felt like it's a powerful analogy that I still, like, draw on. You know, sometimes, like, I'll watch some Ken Burns documentary, and then they'll have the old, like, I was watching the American Revolution.

They have, like, these first-person accounts of, like, being in the American, Revolution and like the fight and they put on the fife drums and they put the like the music and there's there's moments where I'm like I don't know whether it's just the artistry or just like I'm just like I'm like I am there like I am also and like this sense of like the universality of experience and that you can transcend time you can transcend the self that like those things are accessible in some way and that as you go into this dream state at night every night it's like you're you're creating new selves and you're connecting with old selves. and, you know, it's like, again, it's like, do I believe it?

Like, in the, because I would go to Shirley McClain and I'd be like, you know, some of it I feel like is really uncanny and some of it I feel like I'm making up. She's like, it happened to you. She's like a very like, it's like a fundamentalist Christian, but like she's like a fundamentalist, like, you know, and I am not a fundamentalist, but like I do think there's just something about it that is, there's some things that are just inexplicable where you just have these like emotional, I'm sure you've had, I mean, you're as an art, you know, it's like, that's part of what artist.

is like vibing into something that you didn't think you'd ever vibe into and you're suddenly dropped down into some other person's thing and you're like this feels so familiar you know what I mean do you have that from art too like if you watch a movie do you see yourself in a movie or no it's hard as I don't know how you feel about like as I get older I I don't really like to watch things as much as I used to. When I was a kid, I just consumed everything and like it really is hard for me to go see anything anymore or or like try to. It's like I, I feel often trapped inside art or like it feels claustrophobic in certain kinds of experiences. Like sometimes I'll get a, like there'll be some amazing movie or something and I'll just feel really lit up. Yeah. But often, you know,

it's like often I don't even give it a chance because I'm just like I, it's, I don't know. It's, I feel like I, I like creating. If it's a friend, something, I want to be a part of that. But like, I don't know. I'm just, it's like, I just feel like I've given so much time to watching things that I feel like I don't, you know, I did it. I think when I was young to try to learn and steal and like, you know what I mean? And I was, of course, obviously, that's why I chose it. I was completely engaged and the spark was, I was really into seeing the stuff. I've gotten to be more, it's like I just don't want to give it more time when I want to, because it's just there's so much shit. What are the kind of things that you watched as a kid? Well, it was funny because I was from a religious household, and so, like, a lot of things

that we couldn't, we didn't really watch. So, like, there were a couple movies that were taped off TV. Like, I think that, like, I can name them, like, the Poseid Adventure, Fiddler on the roof, freaking I don't know like probably Oliver you know like some and I would just watch them

like 500 times like I would reenact the Poseid Adventure in my backyard like on the rag whether I had friends or by myself like I remember like I like did a redo of airport 77

at my second grade on the bleachers and got everybody to like be one of the dead people in airport 77 so there was just like a couple I don't know I like disaster movies

and I like I liked flipping, I guess, certain musicals like Fiddler on the Roof or something. Like Fiddler on the Roof, I still was like, best movie. I love Fidre on the Roof for some reason. And then how would you say your taste developed over time? Well, so my family was religious, but my dad was a professor at a seminary of audiovisual. So he was actually, and he wrote, like, movie criticism for Christianity. today. So it was like he would watch movies, but all these through this sort of theological

Christian lens. Would he talk about it with you? Yeah. So like there was this idea of using movies as a way to talk about ethics and talk about the value system of a movie or the, the hero's journey through a sort of Christian lens, which I think has definitely impact, obviously impacted me. But then I also, in second grade, I had a teacher, was Sam Shepard, the playwright, his mother was my second grade teacher. Wow. So she was like, and she was a cool lady, and I was into her, and she was really obviously proud of her son.

And so she, so like, when I was pretty young, I started, like, reading Sam Shepard plays, and then I realized that that was a career that people had. And then, yeah, I was just always a little, then I started, like, writing little plays. And I was just, yeah, a little weird creative kid. I remember I got the record of who's afraid. I mean, I was pretty young. Like, who's afraid of Virginia? Wolf, and I would

listen to it and follow along. I just like the way the plays, like, you know, it's funny how your kid little things just get, have there's some, like, Freud would say, like, a cathex, like some kind of erotic charge. Not even like, he would access it as an erotic thing, but like, something that would just

really like, just float your boat, turn you on, exactly. I really like just how the words would land on the page and how it was like this kind of like, it was kind of like, you know, I guess, as a musician, where you see notes and you know you just like to see how the music relates to the notes and like orchestrating that you know and it's like was it about the words on the page or was it about the performance of those

words it's like it's a connection it's like i really liked to see the words on the page and then see how it like was translated into sound and how but yeah i guess even when i was a kid i used to walk around with like little note cards with just words i just loved words and so like there was just something about it was like you know it's like an incantation or like you're like it's like yeah there's something about putting words together do you write the cards yourself no they were like basically learning how to you know no words you know what i mean but i was just like really into the words and just i don't know it was just like and i when i was little i was oCD and had more like so every word had seven letters or any word you know you're just counting the letters i was just you know what i mean

it was like it was like a kind of like a i was just a word word person it's cool Yeah, I mean, I think there's just some people are, yeah, it's just like music. Some people are really into music or like math. You have numbers. And would you read a lot in general? Yeah, I was really into reading and I was a kid. I was, yeah, I was big on reading. Any particular fiction?

I like plays and I like, I mean, my parents were educated people and were very smart. They were in this world of like Christian, you know, and so like I was like, and for, I don't know why, but like I had got a subscription to. the New Yorker. I started reading Paul Eat and Cale. I was just like, I was, some classic, like, weird, precocious kid. And I was like, you know, it was a boring up in the fucking foothills of Eaton kid. And we, it was like, we could roll. And I, like, there were many kids around. We would, like, go on the freaking, what do you call it? Like, we'd have, like, a wheelbarrow. We'd go down the thing. And like, but then after that, I'd be like, okay. So, like, I was just had this very, like, you know, we had built out this sort of inner life of being interested.

in other things, you know, like, I was so, so, yeah, I, I spent a lot of time reading and... Do you have brothers and sisters? I have a sister, yeah. Old or younger? She's older, and she's a teacher now in the same area that I grew up in. What was your relationship with her like? I mean, it's complicated. I mean, she's, I mean, she's adopted, and, and I'm not, and we were just, we were very

close in age, but very just different, we were just different. Was she adopted before you came or after? Yeah. So my mom had like six miscarriages and then they adopted my sister and then she got pregnant and had me and I was the only kid. I see. So my sister's great. She's awesome. But like it was definitely like we, it wasn't like she, we had overlapping interests or, you know, she wasn't like a, yeah, we weren't concocting stuff together really. How much older was she?

Nine months. Oh, so very close. Yeah. Interesting. Let's talk about White Lotus a little bit. What do you think makes White Lotus different than other TV shows? It's a good question. I mean, I think one of the things that's different about White Lotus,

and it's not necessarily the thing that is the reason why it's successful or it's necessarily the reason why, I don't know, it's of interest, but it's definitely, I think, why it's something that I enjoy keep doing it, which is, like, because of the format, it's really just, like, be following people over a week. there's something about that as a format that like it's like I wouldn't want to write something that's super plotty

you know and at the same time I don't know there's something about just like because of the time element of it it's like leads to certain kinds of it's like it's in a way it's it is like little plays but because there's this like kind of conceit there's this little hook you know that like keeps that in this sort of propulsive hook. Does a whole season take place in a week?

Yeah. And when they would come out, would they come out one per week or did they come out as a group? They come out one per week. And I think something about it because it's come out one a week. There's like, it starts with like somebody,

like something bad is going to happen. You don't know exactly. Someone's going to die. Something bad. But then it's just following these people on vacation and it's like their little interest. And, you know, it's like it's sort of like very, It's very low-fi in terms of, like, there's not, like, tons of stuff going on,

but you just feel like it's all leading to, like, I don't know, like someone's going to, like, a human sacrifice or something. So it's, like, somehow it keeps people's interest, but, like, it feels very, like, observational and more about, I don't know, there's something about it. I don't think there's many shows like that. Like, it's, like, it has its own formula that, like, I think is fun for me because I really don't, I mean,

I mean, I don't know, I don't know what I'm doing, period, but like, I, like, it's just a funny, as somebody who's, like, written these character stuff that, like, infer to varying degrees of success and of interest to other people, something about this has just, like, kind of, like, landed in a way that is amusing, because it's, it's the same thing I've always done, but there's just this kind of, like, I honestly have no idea why it's a success. I, I'm happy that it is, but I don't, I'm just, I've always been the same guy, and, like, some things, explode and some things die by die on the vine and even have anything to do with it it might have to do with yes how it fits in the world in this moment in time exactly well what the first season it was like it we did it during covid and then it came out when there wasn't a lot of product because people weren't able to make it because of all these things shutting down so we were able to get it out and it just i think because it just felt new something new like it just took on a life and then I just think I was at the stage in my career where it was kind of like, if, like, I had been younger or different times, I think I would have fucked it up. But, like, I feel like, I mean, not to say, like, you know, whatever.

People can decide what, you know, everybody's going to have their own opinion about, you know, this season's bad or this season's good or whatever. But, like, I just, it's like the fact that I can actually, like, write them all and do them all. And, like, in the time that it's like, I feel like, that's because I'm at this stage in my career where I'm like, I know how to do that, you know. How would it be different if the season was a feature film instead of a series? I think it's the cliffhanger of it. It's like it's real and you know someone's something bad is going to have. Like people, by the end of the season, there's like a big froth of like people being like, I got to know what happens.

And that's kind of fun as a writer to be like, yeah. And I think because it's dropped like once a week, it just, it becomes a constant. conversation point between people. And so it's like it's fun to watch that in real time as people get like, you know, they're really like grappling with it. Do people have like theories about like TikTok? I mean, that's part of the, I think it's like in this world of like social media interaction for whatever reason. It's been one of those shows that people have really like engaged with. They dress up as the character. They're, you know, they're doing impersonations of different, you know, like so it's. Like, that part is, you know, as like a creator, it's fun to see it catches some imaginative fire in others and then they are creating stuff because of it. And that, that's always cool. Do you remember where the original idea came from? I mean, bro, the truth is like, I'm not, I'm like, I'm a true hat.

I mean, in the sense of, like, I really am about the lifestyle. I'm like, I believe in art in a way, like, but I don't believe in it as a. Like, I don't care about a legacy. I really don't care about, like, I don't even care if people like or watch my shit, to be honest. What I care about is, like, if I'm able to go keep doing it and go. And so for me, it's like, I learned early on, like, and this sounds like the spoiled bitch, but, like, it's just like, I don't want to do a show that I have to drive over the 405 to Disney.

I don't want to go on a soundstage. I don't want to do that. I don't want to, like, it's like, I want to, like, it's like, it's like, it's like I want, like, I feel like I'm, am I getting too real? No, okay. This is real. I just like, I don't, like, I, you know, even the best, coolest thing, if it, you can still feel dead about it, do you mean? Yeah. So it's like, I, and I'm, I'm, I'm kind of, like, very sensitive to, like, like, feeling like, okay, this feels like a routine or this feels like a job or this feels like you know what I mean like I like I like to see new places I like to explore new cultures

and I personally I'm like I know I'm I can do this job so it's not about whether I can do it or not it's just like is it cool like do I really want to do this and so TV like this is one where I'm like so maybe I just follow a couple on their honeymoon and like just then like go to Sri Lanka and we'll shoot the thing and then they'll go to the Maldives and I'm like trying to think like what is the sounds like the most freaking font you know i mean and so the problem was covid i was like oh i had this i always have this idea of like a couple on a honeymoon and then they would you you know you realize in you know because i went on like amazing race and you realize when you're on these trips that these like you know like if you and i are hanging out here for a week

i'll know this brick reuben but if you and i are then suddenly sent on a trip somewhere and like having to like deal with like cab drivers and whatever i'll see a different way it's just same with me yeah so like i just thought that that's an interesting thing you start with a couple who's all really into themselves and then they go on this trip and then they realize who they married and whatever so so i was like that'd be fun because then we could travel around and do all this you know i was like but then i i because of covid i was like no we have to just do it in one place we'll follow different people on a trip and then and and i just at the time i was just like I didn't want to go back to TV, but, like, I was so bored during COVID.

And it was like, I was literally, I was driving around the West with my dog. And I was like, this, I mean, this is cool, but like, I'm, like, ready to do something. So, like, I did the show. And then, like, then I'm like, oh, well, each season we could go somewhere new. We'd go to Thailand. We'd go to, like. Have any of the shows done that? Not in this way.

Not in this. I mean, I don't think, I mean, maybe, but I love it. There was no model that you based it on. No, no, no. And it's, like, really was just, like, this fantasy of mine to always be able to, able to keep growing both as a writer and a creator or whatever, but also, like, you know, having, that even if the show was a turd, that, like, the experience of going to make a show in, like, Sicily, you're going to have, yeah, somebody's going to come cool out of that.

You're going to meet. And also, you know, whenever you're traveling, you always want to, like, you want to be more than just sightseeing, you know what I mean? You want to, like, have sex with the land or, you know what I mean? Or, like, you just want to get involved with the people in some way that's more legit or like where you're really getting something you know what i mean and so like that that part of it is cush so i so yeah so i'm i like this idea i'm happy to keep doing this and now they're paying me it's like it's like this is probably i'm just going to finish this and then i'm going to i'm probably going to i'm probably not going to keep working i don't know i don't know but you described driving around with your dog yeah that's that's what it would feel like

if you stop working yeah maybe i just feel like it's like it's like it's just weird how it's like yeah i don't know how i'll feel but i'm i'm getting older it's like i'm like i'm like i'm starting to like the resort life like you wake up you go to the gym you eat some food you go play some tennis you eat some food what else do you do i don't know but it seems fun it's just like this whole thing of like i mean it's like i it's like i know i'm good at i can do this i mean and when i say i'm good at it i'm like i can actually just do it. It doesn't mean I'm, you know, whatever. It doesn't mean anyone will like it. I'm not, yeah.

But you can finish the product. Yeah, exactly, which is more than some people can do. So that's something. So like, but, but yeah, I don't, I don't know. I, I, I, I sometimes wrestle with that. I mean, I know that you are Mr. Creative and keep the, you know, it's like you, it's all about, but I, but there's a part of me as like, do I really want to always just be creative? I don't know. Maybe I just want to eat and play tennis. As nutrition science advanced through the mid-20th century, researchers began to understand that modern eating patterns, limited variety,

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How is it different when you write something if you don't direct it? it's like you're just kind of working to figure out how to manipulate the director and doing it the way you want it's like or not manipulate it but just like you know you're trying to you know because i didn't really want to tell me i didn't really want to direct it in the beginning because i don't really like managing people you know it's like i'm not i i sort of i've only built a a knack for that over you know i started i the first time i directed i was like in my late 30s so I really waited a while and I'd had a lot of stuff made before that so it was like I was really kind of like hovering and were you looking forward to getting that chance or no no it was

just more like I just got over time I was just like I just it's like it would just be easier for me to just go do it and interpret it myself than to keep trying to like sit on set and be like are you sure you want to do it like you know like whatever you sure you want to do like that it's annoying It sounds horrible. And it's also, it's annoying to other people and I'm, and annoying me. So I don't feel like I'm one of those people where, like, I heard your interview with Woody Allen and the way he would talk about, it was like, I don't really, I don't enjoy it enough to say that that's, it's like something that I want to constantly be in the cycle of doing. I could relate to his, his, like, philosophy of, like, it's best. better to spend your time thinking about problems that you can solve by making the art better

than these existential things that you can't do much about. But at the same time, it's like, I feel like I'm in this idea of like wanting to just as a person. I want to, I don't know, like I kind of feel like it's like goes back to what I was saying before. It's just like, sometimes creativity can be just a knee-jerk reaction to things, you know what I mean? Or just, not as creativity, but like writing the script, it's like, I don't know what else to do, so I'll just do this again, do you know? And it's like, I've always been afraid of not having enough money. Like, I've always used money as an excuse to keep doing things. And at some point, you're just like, I can't use that as an excuse anymore. And what am I going to, like, I don't know,

I'd be like to push myself to try to find other ways to spend. just to, like, grow beyond just this way of interacting, especially when you're in charge. Like, I get tired of being, I'm tired of my opinion being so meaningful to people and, like, having stuff and, like, suddenly everybody has to, you know what I mean? I don't know. Like, I'm. But it's only that for your stuff. It's not like you get to dictate what anyone else thinks about anything.

No, yeah. You're just saying, this is how I see it. Yeah, but I've just been on this. And you get to share it. Yeah. So, like, but like for five years now, it's just been. I've just been doing this nonstop. So, like, I can't get off this bus.

Which is okay. I'm not complaining, but it's just like, at some point I was just like, I'd like to just fuck off. And maybe you'll do that at some point. And you'll either see, yes, this works for me, or, hmm, can't wait to get back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a question for you, which is like, when you're dealing with all these people, do you ever feel like you're, because it's like, to me, I think that when I think about

you and obviously I'm impressed by you and always, and I've been for a long time. Like, as you approach each artist, like, getting in, like, mind melding and getting in their heads, is there a part of the you feels like not, because you're not a con artist, because you're not stealing anything. You're actually, you're enhancing everything that they're doing.

But there is a con, is there a con game element to it? Is there like a confidence game that, like, is like, are you doing something kind of a guru? Confidence is part of it, which is if I'm working with an artist who does something that I see is great and I see that they're insecure about it which most artists are

I can have the confidence for them that they don't have for themselves and it helps get them over the line. Just because sometimes it's like with actors I have all these actors on the show and you're trying to get the best out of each person and da-da-da-da-and like but there is something about it where I'm like

I feel like I'm like you know my personality and my persona becomes massaged by this job that I have. Do you mean? Where I'm there to, you know, like... You treat people nicer than you would normally do? Well, it's just like, well, yeah, knowing which people are sensitive and you need to be gentle here, which people need to be challenged.

That's true in life, though. That's how we treat the people around us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just, it's like a part of me you go, you go, like, is this, is this, how does that end up affecting myself by being always thinking about people through that prism. Do you know me? Interesting. You never thought about it that way.

In a way, it's a very, it makes you move out forward into the world. It's like you are, you're trying to have a very, because especially with art, like, you're having the most, you're going into like a deep. It's like, you know, it's not sex, but it's as bad as it could be as, it could be as, intimate as that. And you're getting at people in their most vulnerable, you know, spot and you're fucking in there. And what's cool about it is that you're actually generating these relationships and you're reaching out into them in a way that, like, you know, some people wouldn't dare to go, you know what I mean? So it's like you're spreading out. But it also, like, I just wonder then

the power you have. Like, it's like a, you know, it's a powerful thing, you know, especially artists, you know, they want to be seen and you're telling them that you see them. Like you just said, like I see you, I see in something even more than you even see it yourself, which is like a head trip, you know what I mean? Yeah, a lot of it is psychological and helping someone unlock themselves. So it's therapy, essentially. Yeah. Do you feel like you lose yourself in the process?

No, it's just more like I find it very, it's like I, maybe, I just feel a little more burdened by it because it's like it's sometimes, I don't know what it's like over time, like, you know, what happens in all these relations. Like you sort of feel like sometimes with actors, you feel like there are dolls on the shelf waiting to be played with and they need you to come and play with them. And then you're playing with them. And then, you know, it's like puffed magic dragon or something. Like they're waiting for you at the cave for you to come. And then there's this sort of feeling of like wanting to. almost like you have a bunch of girlfriends that you're stringing along in some way.

Not really, but it's not, again, I don't have some, like, I don't have an agenda, but it's sort of like, I feel like I've dropped, like, there's a lot of people where I'm like, you know, like I've done that where I like showcase a certain person's talent and then you move on to other people and then they're left feeling like you, you know, you walked away from, I don't know, I guess it's like this, you know, maybe it's because I'm just more neurotic or something. I just, like, feel safer and not. It's just, like, I hate letting people down. Same. And it weighs on me sometimes. Same. So it's almost like, I won't do this anymore, and then it's, like, all fair and free and whatever. But I do think that, like, there's something

beautiful about the relationship, and you're also, like, in the... It's, yeah, it doesn't have to be some kind of heavy trip. Did you ever pitch a TV series before White Lotus? I was, I started on TV shows. So the first show I ever worked on was a show Dawson's Creek. And then I did freaks and geeks with Judd Apatow and, and then I started creating my own shows. But like I, and I was. You worked on Dawson Creek was that as a writer? Yeah, it was a writer's room or did you write by yourself?

There was more writers around, but the nature of that show, like freaks and geeks that I did with Judd, that was more of a writer's room. People would, like, pitch on stuff. But with that show, you just kind of write on your own and then come to get. and you know but I I was never somebody who liked to write with other people or liked writer's rooms or or that stuff and then I did a show or I was like something who's very fast I was always like fast but like I did a show where I basically had a nervous breakdown and I was like I was too much so I had like a mental breakdown I was put in a hospital which I escaped from and like it was like that was the show where that really happened that really happened

I see. So, yeah, it was, it was kind of dramatic. And so I was just, like, very afraid to go back and do TV again because I just was, it was just the pressure of it was too much for me. Just because the schedule? Just because they've, you know, like, it was like one of those things where, like, I was like, you know, it was like Molly Shannon, Jason Schwartzman, and like, I had all my buddies doing it.

And, like, the network hated what I was doing. And it was just like, the work was just already itself was so hellish. Just like the amount of work was so much. just from the way I work because I try to write it all and do it all myself and then just also the fighting so it was like I was

you know the work itself was the fighting wasn't about the work but it was to get the work out no it was about the work so like it was hard enough for me to just do all the work but then it was like a network that had been it was like Fox

they had gone from like being married with children like rowdy bad kids network to American Idol at the time and it was like suddenly they were getting 30 million viewers you know, viewers an episode, and they wanted you to retain those viewers. So they were having an identity crisis in their, so, like, they were, they went from being,

because I was this, like, you know, kind of provocative indie guy that they had hired to do the show. And then they suddenly wanted, like, a family show that they could retain. And I was just like, I'm not, I can pivot. I'm not good at them. I don't know what you think I can do. I can't do this. So I, so, yeah, so it was just like classic case of them telling me this is what the audience once and then they tested

both the show that I had done and then the show that I had like this like this freaking Frankenstein show that I had like it had turned into because I like you know I was young and giving in on stuff and then the original show tested great and the other and I'm like you guys didn't even you guys didn't even what you're doing and so like

I sent the email you're not supposed to say and I said it to Brad I'm sending everybody like the head of the agencies like I was like trying to get fired and instead of getting fired they like Gales in her office like the head of the network's like her office she's crying and and we need the script for tomorrow and we're like wow and so i went to some shrink and i was like he's like are you having suicidal age i i was and i'm like well i mean i yeah i want to throw myself in front of a bus but like that's not new

that's i mean and then i'm like literally being checked into a mental hospital where like i wouldn't have my own room and you know it was just like it was and i was like this is insane so like i'm like fuck this i'm running to the car they're like you're get the help you need and they're like chasing me through the thing i'm like getting in my car i'm driving on the freeway and like the shrink has called the office and was like mike's not coming in he's gonna go get the help he need like they basically tell him in a mic mental institution wow and some other guy had just committed suicide writing a mr ed like we for the same people so they thought that they were like killing writers with their notes so yeah i was driving on the freeway and then

I have like 15 messages and there's all these executives and like producers that are crying on the phone thinking I'm in a mental you know like and they're like and I was on my way back to work because I didn't know where else to go and I was just like okay I was shit the bed I totally shit the bed and then the show got canceled it was like a lesson of like I'm not really made for that kind of stress like some people like Judd for example was somebody I saw and he was he went through stress like I saw him stress but like he was good at like just you know pushing back and and being a bitch back and like you know i mean like it was like he knew his worth you mean he knew what to say i don't know how he knew but like he knew how to like fight and like i i i would fight and i would just fall apart you know i just couldn't i was just not somebody who's like could do the creative job and also fight like all that time you know what i mean yeah so it's like it's taken me a longer time to be in a situation where i could just do the job and not have to fight You know what I mean? And we're there now.

Yeah, with this, like, show, like, and, you know, HBO in general, I did another show with them called Enlighten with Lord Dern. Like, it was, like, where I, yeah, they believed me in me, and they saw what I could bring, and, and they accept me. In a world of artificial highs and harsh stimulants, there is something different, something clean, something precise. Athletic nicotine not the primitive products found behind convenience store counters. Not the aggressive buzz

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What's the first time you ever performed in anything? Well, I did it when I was in college because I was, I'm really a writer. I really see myself as a writer, but, like, sometimes I would write stuff and I would sit there and watch it, and I just be like, ugh, I can't. And so I was like, oh, I'll just be in it. And then I don't have to sit there passively. And so I would act sometimes in stuff that I had written in college. Did you write it knowing it was for you to perform or no? Sometimes.

Sometimes I'd be like, oh, I'll do this. And like, and then when I did movies, it was like, I didn't really want to be, like, the lead, but I was just like, it'll give me something to do, so I'm not sitting behind the director and being like, eh. Have you ever acted in anything that you didn't write? Yeah, I have, just like as friends, you know, favors to friends and stuff. But it's fun or no? It's fun to interact that way, but I, it's such a different kind of vibe, you know, writing

and especially being like the mastermind of the theme, you know, you always are like, Like, you need to stay on point or else you're, you know, it's like you're failing everyone. You've got to just, like, make it as good as you can make it. And acting is, like, letting go and, like, giving, you know, like, giving in to something. You know, it's kind of more of a, like, free-spirited thing that I feel like I can tap into and have fun with. But I also, it's less compelling to me lately, I guess. How is writing a second season different than writing a first season? I've never really done it more than two seasons

because I have this like I talked about earlier which is like I'm a novelty freak and I like to feel like I'm doing something new so like idea of like going back to the same thing over and over like sounds like hell but like with this show it's an anthology so it's totally new actors completely new location new so like that part of it it's like but then the themes can kind of like interplay with each other and kind of feel more

textured and it can develop over it. So, like, that part of it is clutch. I love that. So, like, that's cool. Yeah, so I'm happy with this gig and would like to keep doing it as long as... It seems like you found a format that suits you. Yeah, it's perfect. It's perfect for me. But, yeah, you asked me about reality shows. Yeah, tell me that...

You don't see the pleasure going on a reality show, a reality game show, starving on an island? Do you ever see Survivor? I've never seen it. You never seen Survivor? I've never seen any reality show. You've never seen a reality show? No. Tell me what was your, what was the thought?

Well, I don't know. It's hard to explain to somebody who doesn't really even see any of the pleasure of it. But like I, but like I, Survivor's just a great. It's a classic show. Yeah. If it wasn't a TV show, would I do it? Would you do the same thing? Oh, no.

In the same competition. No. Everything was the same except there's no cameras. Well, I would definitely do like the amazing race I did, which is like a scavenger hung around the world. Hell yeah, I'd do that. And I want to do that. Feel more or not? Yeah, I would do that just to do it. And it's like I've, I've actually tried to, I mean, I haven't done it yet, but I'm in the process of like, I want to organize a tuck-tuck race across Sri Lanka with your friends and you can like get all the things and like, it's like a scavenger

and you go different places and it's, I mean, yeah, it'd be so fun. And I've done that where I've like hosted and like scavenger hunts around L.A. and like you go all balls to the wall. And that's fun. But Survivor, I don't know. Survivor is more, it's very punitive. I mean, you're starving. I don't know if I would suffer like that if there weren't cameras. Like, I feel like that cameras, no, they, I think that cameras give you life. You know what I mean? You're like, because then it's like you're suffering for America. You're suffering. Like, it's like, I think to suffer in alone anonymously, like that's suffering. In fact, on Survivor, you suffer before the. show starts because they have like a week where you're on you know you're under this lockdown where they're doing all of these different kinds of like you have to go through this process and there are no cameras and i hated that anytime that there weren't the cameras around i was hating it because it was like you're stuck in this like before like so they have tribal council you vote people out whatever but then before the tribal council you're in this tent and there's like a PA there

telling you not to talk to each other and you're sitting in the mud and there is no camera and you're just like, this is sucks. But then you go to the travel council and there's cameras and you vote someone else and it's dramatic and it's, I'm like, this is fun. Because you feel like it's showbiz? No, it's just like, it's like part of the, yeah, maybe it's just because it's, I mean, yeah, well, one, I'm a fan of the show and you know that you're part of this thing. And so that's funny.

It's just funny. I don't know, it's just funny. But like when you're sitting, just waiting to go on and you're in the dirt and you're starving and you got shit in your mouth and like this. fucking PA who's 22 is telling you to shut up you're just like fuck this but you know i don't know if i could do it again i've been i just they just did a 50th anniversary it's like the 50th season and i they brought me back to come and i i just did it in the summer and it was hell the whole thing was hell it was like literally every second it was hellish it was so hellish so

so i don't know if i could ever do it again but i'm still a fan are most of the other people on the show people that you know from something else or no No, none of them. I mean, it's just people. And actually, that's why I didn't like it as much this time, because the first season I went through it was like a truck driver from Texas. It was people from all walks of life

who'd never been in that experience before and you're going through it with them. There's something very bonding about that. And it's very, it is a lot of drama. You know, 39 days, starving. You know, like, I lost 27 pounds. You're like going through all these things. You know, you're crying.

You're like, it's emotional. It's like a big deal. And then the next time you, go and you're going with a bunch of people who are now reality contestants who like have like kind of worked on their persona through I mean they are they started as truck drivers

but now they're like the you know people they bring yeah they're influencers and so and also you've been that you've done it before it feels a little more canned so it's just that's just the nature of beast but so yeah but I was just like 50th anniversary

I don't know that's something I was like I should just do it and also at the time I was like, oh, White Lotus, it did sort of become this, like, phenomenal. It was like, it was just a lot. Like, and I was like, I don't want to be, I don't deal with that right now. I was like, I'll go somewhere and, like, skulk away and be, like, just one of, a bunch of people on an island. But I realized I couldn't, you know, it was like, it was like, it was like, it was like, there's a press junket before, it was like, all these things that I had this fantasy of what it was

going to, how I was going to be able to get away from this person that I was trying to run away from and I was like, oh no, this person is here and now I'm starving. Now it's just that person and I'm starving. I like competing. I'm competitive. And I like, yeah, novelty. Are you a gambler? Not really. I don't know. Yeah, because I don't like losing money, but I'm competitive in the sense of like, I don't know, like it's like, it's a very king's court. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like, it's like a king's court of like personality. It's like it's a pagan playground of these different, like, personality types that are all trying to, like... Is it a popularity contest in some way?

Yeah, I mean, it's more like the person who wins is the person who... It's like, it's really about influencing other people. It's like, how can you get what you want when everybody wants the same thing? And, like, and it's really about getting other people to do what you want them to do. And they're all people who want to do their own thing. So it's like a war of wills, basically. It's classically a very interesting show to watch. Because when it first came out, you had these different sort of archetypal people that you, you know, like they kind of cast it for like, you know, the crotchety female truck driver, the like the vixen who's like the bathing suit model.

And like all these from these different. And they're all, they all want the same thing and they're all eating each other until one person is left. I don't know. I just like surviving, like musical chairs. I used to like musical chairs. Like you'd be the last person to have a chair. Or, like, dodgeball, where you throw the ball until there was just one person left.

I don't know. Something about, I guess it's like, maybe it's because my mom had all these miscarriages and I was a baby who was, like, trying to survive. You're the one who made it. The one that made it. I'm like, when that survivor first showed up, I was just like, this is the show.

This is, like, surviving other people. And you wrote a movie that was wrestling theme. Yeah, Nacho Libre. Tell me about that. How did it come to be? Well, the director is the guy who, made Napoleon Dynamite. Jared Hess is one of great. I love that movie. Yeah, he's an amazing guy. He's such a nice guy and his wife. They're both super cool. And so they had this idea

to do a wrestling movie with Jack. Jack Black and I had a company together for a while and Jack's also an amazing guy. And so, you know, Jared was a Mormon and he had done his mission in, I think Ecuador, I don't know, somewhere in the South America. He spoke Spanish and he just wanted to go back there and do a luchador movie. And I was like, that sounds, that's like right on my out. You're shooting in Mexico. And Jack was down there. And we just had a blast. It was probably the most fun I've ever had on this. It was just so much fun. How much do you know before you start writing? Well, I don't really write anything that's like, I'm a kind of no-nothing guy. I don't know. It's like, for me, it's more about feeling my way in. And like, I don't need to be a story. Do you know

the whole story before you start writing? I usually know where it's going, and I try to vibe out the characters. And that part is the funnest part to me, honestly, is the gestating is like, you know, where you're lying there, oh, this is an idea, da-da-da-da. And, like, the jesting before the writing is super fun. And I like to try to stay, keep myself from writing

until it's just like the baby is ready to be born. Do you mean? The writing part happens quickly? Yeah, it goes, Like, it's like, and this is the problem now is that like I, because the show is eight episodes, it's like, so I like, I just went through a period. I was like writing 450 pages of stuff in three, two and a half months. Wow. And so I have a sprinter's approach and sometimes it's a marathon.

Yeah. And I go a little cuckoo because it's like I just finished. I'm completely spent. It's like I've had my finger in the electric socket. And I'm just like, so I need to just get my head on straight. Do you play all of the different characters when you're writing? Yeah. Do you ever say things out loud or no?

Yeah. All the time? It's like I write it until I hear it. So I don't know if I'm actually saying it, but it's being said in my head, yeah. And if something funny happens, do you laugh? I hope so. Totally. I mean, if something sad happens, I cry.

But when you write something sad, you'll cry. when you write something funny, you'll laugh if you're alone in the room. I mean, some things, yeah, if I'm laughing, I don't know if it's always funny to other people, but it is funny to me. And I definitely come from the place of, like, I'm trying to, like, get myself off. I'm writing for those moments where I'm getting off. Yeah, you're entertaining yourself. Yeah.

Great. All the best things happen that way. Okay, I'm going to read a list to you, and I want you to prioritize it. It's five things on the list. characters dialogue story setting

philosophy huh I think character first and you know philosophy I personally

like I like to organize things based on philosophical concepts Like, I think philosophical concepts get me excited. So character and philosophical concepts kind of sometimes like... Both number one? Well, they go hand in hand.

Like, the characters come out of philosophical ideas. So philosophy might even come first. Yeah, it's just sort of like, what am I trying to get at? And then I'll build a character that sort of helps me get at that. So, yeah, you can't have one without the other, I guess, and at least with this kind of stuff that I'm doing. So I would say they're both one. And then dialogue, what is it, setting and story?

Dialogue story and setting are the three left. Well, story I think is probably the next because I think that that's like, story is the playing out of these ideas, you know. And then the dialogue would be next. In a weird way, dialogue is probably more of my strength than the other things. So, like, that's just, it is what it is. And then setting is last. Last.

What are your favorite film? of all time. Well, it's funny. I go back to, like, what were the ones that got me excited about storytelling? I mean, like, the Poseid Inventure, if I watched it now, I'd probably be like, but, like, there's something about it. And that's also a Survivor show. Like, it's, like, do you ever watch the Poseid Adventure? I did. Do you remember there's a- all the Irwin Allen movies? There was a poster that was like, who will live and who will die, and it was like, you know, like, six of them died and six of them lived. Do you remember this? Inferno was another one. Yeah, exactly. And so, like, this idea of

like you don't know who's going to live and who's going to die and then I was into that I don't know if that's really an effect of like I don't know all those surviving what do we call white lotus whatever it is it's a little bit like that like who's going to die like who's going to live and who's going to die do you think seeing Poseidon adventure many times as a young person made you like this yeah am I like was I excited about that like would I inevitably be excited by those by something whether Poseidon adventure existed or Yeah. What do you think? I think it's a collective. I mean, it's like this is, I don't know why you're, you know, I'm sure with music, it's like you have an orientation. But then some things capture your imagination and then they're procreative. If they weren't there, I know I wouldn't be the same. Yeah, I wouldn't have the same maybe format to have reveries on those kinds of things. So like, I do think it's, it changed me. And also, why? it like on repeat like I'm sure there was music you just listen to over and over and like

you know what I mean it was like so like all of the storytelling mechanisms just got ingrained inside your brain you know so much of today's life happens on the web Squarespace is your home base for building your dream presence in an online world Designing a website is easy, using one of Squarespace's best-in-class templates. With the built-in style kit, you can change fonts, imagery, margins, and menus. So your design will be perfectly tailored to your needs. Discover unbreakable creativity with fluid engine, a highly intuitive drag-and-drop editor.

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Track inventory and connect with customers while you're on the go. Whether you're just starting out or already managing a successful brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create and customize a beautiful website. Visit Squarespace.com slash tetra and get started today. How is writing a theatrical play different than writing for television? I mean, I wrote plays when I was in college, but I haven't really done. done it since. But I mean, the thing is what's cool is like it's like being in the, it's like what's the difference between performing live and performing, like having, you know, producing a

record. It's like there's so many things you can control, so many things you can excise. You can just, you know, guide the viewer, the audience in a way that you can in a live thing. And so I... Would it make it harder you think to write theater because of that? I just, it's like, I think that for me, like, this is so sweet to be able to have this kind of audience and to, you know, I think live theater is exciting for performers and stuff, but like as for a writer, I feel like, you know, and then being able to really like manage the material in the way that I can as a, as a producer, just it's preferable to me. Would you say you're a control freak? I'm a control freak in the sense of certain, like, I don't like being under someone else's.

I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I'm not OCD anymore. I'm not a perfectionist. I, I, I hate to say it. How did that happen? What's the cliches? Like, perfectionism is the, is the enemy of productivity. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, like, I realized early on if I was going to be so niggily and like, I'm going to get bogged down. And it's like, and it also made me sort of miserable, you know what I mean? I, I feel like, I want to be lighthearted. I want to be able to create and feel proud of it but also kind of like not be an ogre also maybe the more that you do you realize what is and isn't important yes and also yeah exactly and also like there's certain things where you like you realize as you know as someone who is really into the collaboration

that like letting go of feeling ownership of everything and realizing other people are bringing stuff to it, and it gives it more variety of expression. And so that comes with security over time, a security of self, and not being such a, you know, stingy bitch. Can you remember any creative breakthroughs for you that have happened over the years? Well, I've learned from everybody, and I've learned from even things that weren't, yeah, from failures. And, like, you know, I would talk about Judd doing freaks and geeks.

and he was had this, you know, he was a very, he's very anal-expulsive, like, just throw the shit on the wall, you know, and see what sticks and, like, and is not precious about it. And in a way, he workshops everything. He goes through the process, like a studio almost, where, you know, he watches what people like and what, you know, and so he's canvassing. And I was always having this kind of authorial pride of, like, this is my intention. You know, it is always, like, kind of feeling like I was on defense of any kind of influence or some you know like i was always like more rigid and so like working with him was

helpful to like i i'll never be him and i'll never do it that way but like but to like let go of some kinds of you know uppity shit that i had tell me more about your parents well my dad was a minister and religious but you see him when he would speak yeah we i was you know i was a minister's son So, like, every Sunday we would, you know, because he was, like, that was our church. So, so, yeah, so he's an intense guy, and he was, you know, my parents are, do you ever get into the Enneagram? Yeah. Okay. So, like, I'm a seven, which is, like, like, seven is, like, an enthusiast, but, like, kind of in dreamers.

And, like, my parents are both, they both live in these dream worlds. Like, they live, they're dreamers. They're, my dad is, like, a dreamer. of, like, Christian theology and Bible stories and, you know, like, and justice, social justice. And my mom is- Did he grow up in it as well? Yeah. His parents were, yeah, very religious, and they kind of groomed him to be the next Billy Graham. And he wrote all these, like, you know, religious books with, like, all of these, like, big, you know, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and Jim and Tammy Baker and stuff.

So, yeah, they're both, you know, like, on Survivor, I realize. was like, I'm not good in material reality. I don't know how to do shit. I don't know how to... I'm useless. I'm a useless person when it comes to the material world. And it's like, I was raised by these dreamers

who lived in the dreamlands. I'm like, I'm literally out of like a Christian Tennessee Williams player or something. So, like, it's like I... So, like, they're both beautiful people and they live in these beautiful dreams. And your mom's a believer as well. She is a Christian, but like she was just like somebody who made umbrellas for fairies.

and like when she was like and like always just sees this like she lives in this kind of rainbow land of like she sees the good in everybody and like and kind of just i don't know like so yeah they're they're interesting people and only now as i'm older do i realize like how much i'm yeah just a product of these two beautiful dreaming people you know like they have cool spirits is biographical. Yeah, I definitely feel like things that don't come from inside you, I don't know how you'd write it, you know what I mean? And I guess my goal in life is to, like, be large enough to have a large canvas inside me,

you know? When you're writing, do you picture the characters physically? Like, do you see them? It's more I hear them because I don't know who else also. I mean, sometimes I'll write, like I wrote for Jennifer Coolidge for the show or Jack Black. I wrote a bunch of stuff for him. So I see them and I hear their voice. But in general, since I don't always know who's going to be it, it's...

But you don't picture like someone like this, like an archetype, or do you? Yeah, I mean, when you have casting, which I'm doing right now for the next season, someone will show up and I'll be like, yeah, this looks like the face that I see in my head. And is it always matching something that you will already? thought when you're casting, or is it ever, wow, I never thought of it like that, but that's even better. Totally, totally, 100%. And sometimes somebody will come along, I'll think, let me think of an example, like Parker Posey was an actress that was in the last season, and the way this part was written was written as this kind of like prim, Southern matriarch or whatever, and then

Parker Posey comes in with this just, like, totally different kind of energy and, like, hilarious. And so, like, it, yeah, it just, I mean, that's the part of, like, where, you know, time and experience, like, I'm like, okay, let's capture, let's let Parker be Parker and figure out how to make her shine, you know, and like, and step away from some of this preconceived things that I need, you know, some stuff I need it, I need it to do for the story, but, like, other places, like, let's let her just be her, you know. How about ad libbing? Yeah, I'm, you know, I came up with Judd and Jack and all those people. So I'm, you know, it's like, it's like a combination. Like, I want to feel like I,

I have a reason for the things that I put in there. But then, you know, we get a version of that and then we play around with it. What's essential for a character to exist? I mean, some characters are the, you know, if it's the person going through the story, then they need to have, you know, a dimension and a purpose that's deeper. And then, you know, the other characters are there to, as orchestration in a sense. It's like you have your main song and then you have these different things to be counterfeit. point or to be a foil or to be the jester to that, you know what I mean,

different people that. So usually it's like each story has this kind of centerpiece character idea for me. And then the other characters are there to create the dynamism that you want for a story. Do you have any kind of rules for yourself about like, are you like having a certain number of characters? Yeah. I mean, I think it's like with White Lotus, for example, I think the gestating part is, like, you're trying to figure out how many characters you need

in order to have enough material and, you know, event and, like, drama. And I guess I like to be economical, so I want to have the least amount that I can have whilst, you know, so that everyone, like, I like a chamberpiece, you know, like, I like to feel like I'm being, like, very conservative and so that everybody, there's, like, real sort of shifts for everything. and, like, you have your own, you have more of a relationship to the work. You know, it's like a, it's like a chef. You know, it's like you want to have a little bit of this kind of flavor. You want a little bit of this flavor.

If it's too this, it's too simple. If it's too, you know, crazy. You know, I mean, it's like you're just going for that, like, perfect little, I don't know. And whether, you know, other people see it. But that for you, that's like the thing that's like you want to get that perfect mix of flavor and texture and stuff. Does everything need to make sense? No, I mean, and that's the thing. It's like I, you know, I grew up with a dad who wrote sermons and that everything was this kind of like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, had a dogmatic quality.

Or there's like a, yeah, there's a lesson. There's a, it's like always bringing you to the water to drink. You know what I mean? And so, like I kind of came from that world where like, like I said, like philosophy like inspires me. but then at some point you also, like, you know, great art, sometimes it's just like the vividness of it or just the weirdness or the surprise of it that, like, stays with you. And so, like, and you think of dreams that you have

where it's like, you know, it doesn't all come together, but it has these elements that are just like, you know, that linger in the mind. And so that part of it is you want to be able to have enough space so that it doesn't feel like it's such as closed circle. any rules about story structure that you follow or no that's a big thing to unpack i mean i like counterpoint and i like characters that start and then they become their almost their opposites and i don't know there's certain pleasures of drama that i that i find to be something i

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It's just like when you get excited and like, when you're like, no one can tell me that this isn't good. Like, whether it's good or not, like, nobody can tell me and it will knock me off this perch. Do you mean? Where you're just like... You feel it. You're like...

this is going to be mad. And, like, because, you know, you get so money, you know, especially in, you know, it's so expensive this thing. And, like, there's so much money involved. And there's so many collaborators. It's, it's like, you know, you have dozens of actors. You know, there's so many people have opinions. And it's like, you really, it's like, those are your North Stars or those things where you're just like, this is going to be funny. I believe in this little thing. And like, it kind of anchors you in the process. When you write something funny, do you have someone that you call up to tell it to? yeah i i'm pretty private for somebody in this thing so i don't i like and i've had the thing where i've had friends where you show them draft and you're just like this isn't fair like it's like so i try to i did to have a very small like i just go to hbo if you guys are okay if if if all systems go then i know over time you know dozens of people but that early initial thing i feel like I've learned, like, not to, but yeah, there are, but with that said, like, there's a couple people that I know I'm safe with that, like, get it. I'm not even saying share it with them to get feedback, but just more you're excited to

share the thing. I do, I'm sure there are, but I really don't have it. I don't do it that much because I'm, I'm, I tend to be kind of, I'm not, I'm not extroverted in that way where I'm like, and I also feel. I lose some of the pleasure of the doing if I tell it. Yeah, you don't want to give it away. I just want to, like, hold that excited energy and use it to the work. Do you think of yourself as spiritual?

Yeah, totally. I mean, I feel like art is the spiritual enterprise, you know? It's a non-material. Beyond the art piece, do you have a spiritual practice? But I consider myself a Western Buddhist in the sense of, like, I feel, connected to the Buddhist, at least this sort of Western version of the Buddhist concepts. Like, if I'm not really reading the sutra, like, you know, it's like, like this idea of the non-self and finding that through meditation and like, you know, like, and some of the stuff that we

talked about before, about past lives and all that. So like, I feel like, yeah, I'm spiritual, but I also, I also feel like I'm strong. I have this feeling lately where I, you know, I'm from religious background and I've seen people leave the church and then, you know, how they create their own religions. And I'm kind of, you know, especially as you get more successful, you get, you get more successful and you're around other people that are successful. And they feel like they've landed, like, I'm, I've landed on the, you know, like, it's like where they're, I don't know, like, like, I like, I feel like I want to live in a place of unsurity because I feel like that's certain things work and certain things don't work but like I like the idea of being

you know kind of more you know it's like like in a science mode of like I can have my mind changed about anything jimmy where like somebody could say oh this is like you're you know like it's like and not be too rigid about oh like the like the choices do you feel like as you get older like a lot of times people like the choices they've made they have to be defensive about them and that like this is like the this is the truth you know what i mean or this is the best way and and like i also agree that everybody comes to their own we all build our own heaven you've built your heaven here you know what i mean but i like this feeling of being still in a like i haven't landed on the plant you know what i mean i i don't know like it's like okay to not know and be

you know modest about what i really know yeah yeah yeah no that's beautiful same I don't feel like I know anything. Yeah, and I like to be in situations like, you know, you go on Survivor, as silly as it is, and be around all these other people who are living such different lives than you, and you realize, like, oh, yeah, there's a whole, like, I don't know everything. You know what I mean, I'm the king of this little castle, but I'm just a little, it's just a little, it's the littlest of castles. How did you learn to direct?

I don't know if I still know how to direct. I mean, basically, I mean, I had a, I mean, like, I think some people would say I don't know how to direct. I don't, I, like, I basically, you know, like, I really don't know much about cameras. It's funny because I'm going to France, and it's like, I've learned French over the years multiple times. I learned in high school. I went to Montreal. It's like, and I feel like I'm, like, I'm starting over again.

And, like, every time I go onto a set and it's like, and, like, we're talking about shots and stuff, I'm like, I've been doing this for decades now. but I'm like, I feel like, do I even know what I'm talking about? Like, I don't, you know, it's like every time I feel like I am learning it again. And like with each actor, you learn it again. And with each person, it's like each thing is its own. It's like what I know is the work. You know what I mean? What I know is the writer that came to cocked of this vision.

And then now I'm like working with these designers who know a lot more than me about how to like get me to the promised land. But I do feel as a director, I feel like I'm just, kind of like I just have access to the writer in a way that's that is I have a that's my way in I guess tell me something you learned from your father what I learned my father is this probably make me emotional but you know my dad he was from this religious upbringing and he you know he wanted to save people's souls and and there's something beautiful There's something obnoxious about, you know, the missionary who is coming in and thinks

that they know better than everyone else and is telling them. But there's also something beautiful about seeing each person as a soul who is worthy of saving, you know, and that each person is a child of God. So I think that there's something very, yes, obviously spiritual, but also, yeah, of service to each person, that you can see Jesus in each person. And that was something that he taught me, you know, is like, so that's a compassion that is really a deep source of self, you know, where you feel like you're not by anybody else.

You have to be of service to each person and each person. And each person is a divine self, you know, so. my dad's older I'm going to get emotional but like that's yeah that was like essential thing that was the first thing

I ever felt like I was I learned it's yeah I want to live up to that you know sounds like an incredible gift amazing where to grow up

grew up in Pasadena like the foothills of the mountains in the canyon what was childhood like there it was cool it was i mean it was nice i mean it was a different time you know like i i was up in the foothills and there wasn't a lot going on so it was it was allowed me to have a lot of time to introspect and be the weird kid that i was and and yeah it's i think god every day that i

wasn't born in this time of all of this easy distractions you know he had to go out and find it. You really had to work for it. But yeah, I just think, God, had I been born now, how many things I wouldn't have come to or done or, I don't know, I really feel for these kids. I'm sure they're fine, but yeah, there's nothing like being totally unable to connect with, you know, having to really go out and find the culture is a hero's journey in a way. Tetragramatin is a podcast. Tetragramatin is a podcast. Tetragrammatin is a website.

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