Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Owen Wilson

Episode Date: May 31, 2023

Owen Wilson is an American actor, screenwriter, and producer. Wilson's breakthrough came in 1996 with the film "Bottle Rocket," which he co-wrote with director Wes Anderson. The former college classmates have had a fruitful collaborative relationship, with Wilson starring in many of Anderson's films including "The Royal Tenenbaums," "The Darjeeling Limited," and "Fantastic Mr. Fox." International movie stardom came with his roles in popular films such as "Wedding Crashers," "Zoolander," and "Cars." ------- Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: House of Macadamias https://www.houseofmacadamias.com/tetra Get a free box of Dry Roasted Namibian Sea Salt Macadamias + 20% off Your Order With Code TETRA Use code TETRA for 20% off at checkout  ------- Leisure Craft Saunas https://leisurecraft.com/

Tecrogrammerton. And it seems like it's easier for kids. I always remember that scene in big where Tom Hanks is like at the FAO Schwartz and he's just kind of messing around. He sees another kid and he's like, you know, immediately like, my name's Billy, what sure is like, that's how quickly they become friends and Sometimes wishing that like sometimes meeting somebody and feel like I feel like I'd be friends with this person But we can't quite get through because we're sort of

You know, we're kind of playing these roles and we're in this situation, we're not really going to get to connect. I wish we could do it without talking. Yeah, without talking, or I guess I also get the feeling of being judged like it's immediately a little bit of okay,, if any most spiritual programs talk about being in the moment, that's kind of the key to, you know, enjoying life or feeling good, and it's hard to be in the moment if while we're talking, it can come into my mind, someone's going to listen to this later and judge it, you know, the same way I might judge something that I'm listening to. And when you get that, that's the thing that probably, you know, when I begin this, makes me a bit inhibited, always when you start.

And then you probably relax and you kind of forget about it. And it would be nice to get to a place where, you know, really care. always when you start and then you probably relax and you kind of forget about it and it would be nice to get to a place where you don't really care. I've been doing this every day for the last 12 days and today is the first time I'm nervous. But I think it's because I feel your energy and that we didn't really agree to do this. No, no, no, I know. I kind of said, I believe your words were no chance. I wasn't going to do it.

And even this morning, I thought when you said, you know, you're coming over to get me, that we were going for a walk. And then we started driving. And as soon as I realized where we were driving, I kind of knew what was happening. That it was a little bit of a, okay. Yeah, we're going to do this.

And yeah, and here we are. I guess it's the same though, like in your job, when there are cameras there, now you're used to there being cameras. And I imagine in the beginning, when there's a camera there, it's weird used to there being cameras. And I imagine in the beginning when there's a camera there, it's weird that there's a camera. Yeah, well, I don't know. Yeah, for some reason I was lucky. It didn't make me nervous. I wasn't that aware of it. In fact, when I got that lasix, when I got my eyes fixed, one of the things that I was nervous about was that what I thought that

like, okay, because any time I was kind of acting, I couldn't see the expressions of like the camera guy or the crew or anything. And so I felt that kind of helped me for kind of what we're talking about that felt more relaxed. And when I was going to get lasx, one of the things that I was a little bit thinking about, I was like, I wonder if now being able to sort of see people's expressions, if that's going to make it a little bit trickier for me, but it didn't make the slightest difference.

Even though I could, I didn't notice, I guess, because I was lucky that, uh, yeah, I have a, I had, uh, I was able to kind of tune that stuff out, or I just didn't notice it, because I was kind of absorbed in it. Do you ever perform specifically for the crew? Um, I mean, like, I'll kind of joke about that with Luke sometimes. Something will get a laugh from the crew and you can't help feeling like, okay, well, we kind of did something

and then later it didn't mean anything, when you see the movie, because sometimes what can get a laugh is just something that's different. Yeah. You know, everybody's read the script a million times so all of a sudden you say something new and just the fact that that's different. Everybody's read the script a million times, so all of a sudden you say something new and just the fact that it's different.

Or it can be sort of a tense feeling or uncomfortable sometimes on set. So anything that kind of breaks that tension, people look for that sort of release of laughing and you can think or kid, it can also definitely happen. I've found like the few times where the scene you're supposed to get emotional. Anytime you sort of get emotional people, I think it's just kind of a human instinct when you see somebody else

kind of cry a little bit to sort of want to go over and comfort them. So somebody will come over afterwards and say that was amazing. And you can't help thinking like, well, that must have been pretty powerful. And then you realize everyone, you know, it's not that you've seen a million people cry in movies and it doesn't necessarily mean that the scene is, you know, any better. It really comes down to right just if the situation in a scene is, you know, connects with people like in an emotional way, like, you know, like in Marley and me, I remember talking to Josh afterwards and he said it was like a horror movie for him seeing, you know, the dog, you know, at the end kind of getting put down. And so that's a scene that everyone kind of feels. So yeah, people get emotional. And it was, you know, it wasn't

hard for me to get emotional in that either. How is your relationship to doing it changed from bottle rocket to now? I don't know that it has changed that much. I remember on bottle rocket, you know, they show daily's, when you're making a movie, then to make sure stuff's in focus or the crew bottle rocket, you know, they show daily's, you know, when you're making a movie, then,

you know, to make sure stuff's in focus or the crew, or, you know, the heads of the department will watch stuff. And so I wasn't aware of this because bottle rocket was the first movie, but I was aware because that they did the daily's because the next day, David Wasko was the production designer and a couple other people said, that was great the stuff and I could tell by their energy that they felt we were doing a good job and that gave me a lot of confidence to kind of continue

but back to that sort of the thing with the Lasix. I just, even though I'm not like a nervous public speaker, I was not ever nervous doing that stuff. You think because you were doing it with friends? I think, I'm sure that helped, but I think I've certainly done it a lot of times with people that I didn't know as well as I knew, Wes and Luke and everybody. It's feeling a little bit, I'm in control. I guess that's what it is, because I kind of know, you kind of know the script, and you kind of know how,

you kind of know the script and you kind of know how in my mind how the scenes gonna feel so I feel like I'm kind of in kind of control of it and can kind of you know and feel free enough to kind of also come up with different things. See, if there was no script, it would be much harder to do. Oh yeah, for sure, that's why I think to do like one of those, you know, improv type things. I like people will say, oh, like you improvise a lot. I, you know, very rarely will just in the spot

come up with something that never occurred to me. Sometimes you do, but most of the time it's something that you've kind of thought of before, like, you know, this line could work, or this could maybe be something good, a good direction for the scene to go in. Yeah. When you when you're reading a script in the beginning, are you right away thinking about potential lines? Like the lines come right from the beginning or is it more once you're involved in the project? Well, I really don't judge a script, you know, based on the words on the page. Really?

It's more sort of the feel, you know, the sort of the weight of it. But, no, the... Well, when you ask that question, it made me think of a lot of times I don't read scripts that I think are that good that I could still end up working on, you know, or it's very rare that I've read a script that I think I can read like a book from start to finish and think it's great.

So most of the time, it's like, yeah, maybe that could work or this, but I think the fact that I don't think it's necessarily that great gives me sort of confidence like, oh, I can maybe make this better, I have ideas. It's a little bit like sometimes I felt I did better with teachers in school that I wasn't intimidated by there would be a teacher that everybody kind of loved or was kind of scared of and how to real history with the school.

And I could get sort of nervous and inhibited around that teacher and not really be myself, which in a way is kind of why sometimes I did Letterman maybe a couple times, but I just got too nervous even though he was always really, you know, I always, you know, did fine, but it was less stressful to go on another talk show, maybe just because I admired him. Yeah, it sounds like for you, less stress works. And I know for some people see exact opposite, which is odd because I'm much more like you as well. I like knowing that the stakes are low.

We're having fun. Whatever happens, it's all good. And then when something good happens, you're pleasantly surprised. You know? Yeah. But there's some people who like the feeling like this is the big day. And it's all on the line today. And I have to show up for the team today. Today is that it's game day. Yeah. Which is a very different head space.

I can't imagine it. Yeah. Even as you're saying, the times where I've, they'll maybe be sort of a scene looming in something. Or even, you know, meeting somebody where you've put, you've put a lot of thought into it and you've really kind of worked it over in your mind. And I find I don't do well when I've done that that it just kind of, I feel kind of constricted and I do much better when I just sort of not have a feeling of not caring but yeah where the stakes don't really aren't that you know big one way or the other.

I do better you know definitely like that. It's one of the things I've noticed watching movies you've been in is when it seems like the actors around you really care about it and you don't. It really works. Yeah. I mean, even when you were kind of describing that, everyone being real into it, part of me starts to go kind of the other way. And yeah, I don't know why that is. Maybe just kind of resisting having it seem too obvious, I guess. You know, if it's everyone's expecting it to be this way, I find something in me resists wanting to do it that way. And yeah.

So yeah, the, if you've ever been in the scene with someone, where the acting is so good that on their part that you believe it's happening, like can you get lost in the moment? Yeah, definitely. I think you can get kind of lost in the moment, not where you feel, you know, I remember reading an interview with Forest Whitaker where they asked him about, you

know, who's the best actor you've ever worked with or the best, you know, sort of acting you've ever seen. And he said, well, I don't know this person's the best actor that I've ever worked with are the best, you know, sort of acting you've ever seen. And he said, well, I don't know this person's the best actor that I've ever worked with. But, you know, one of the most memorable things was when I was working with Mickey Rourke, and he was talking about this movie where he plays a plastic surgeon and Mickey Rourke is kind of disfigured and is sent to kind of see him and he kind of reconstructs his face. So he looks all of a sudden, he kind of comes out and he's now like Mickey Rourke. I think the movie is called Johnny Hanson, but anyway, they come out of the hospital and farce wittaker is going to say goodbye to Mickey Rourke and Mickey Rourke had a page of dialogue saying how meaningful this is what the doctor had done for him kind of now that he can sort of step into the world and not look like a freak and how

grateful he is and all these things like that. And force Whittaker said they yelled action and they come out and Mickey looks at him and he didn't say anything, but force Whittaker said, I heard every single line from the script that he was supposed to say. He didn't say anything. He just looked at me and that was really incredible. And the way he kind of told that story

or me reading the story, that always sticks in my mind where I almost feel like I've experienced that too. But I think that's the great thing about a great story like that. You do feel it. So I can imagine that that somebody could do something in kind of an original way like that, and I completely believe that happened.

And that seems great. Yeah, I just read Quentin Tarantino's new book and he talks about Steve McQueen and how he would just go through scripts and cross out all of his own lines. And just like what's the very least he could say? Yeah. And it seemed like the less he said,

the more believable it was. Yeah, I know that, you know, like when I think when they were, you know, kind of getting him to do the magnificent seven, you know, the big role was you old Brenner and, but they said to Steve McQueen, the director, you know, don't worry, we're going to give you the camera. give you the camera. You're not going to have like a lot of lines. You do watch that movie and I guess it started to irritate you old Brenner, but anytime he's delivering one of his soliloquies, Steve McQueen would be kind of loading his gun or looking at it,

doing some business. would be kind of loading his gun or looking at it, doing some business. And yeah, I don't get that at all. Sometimes that's a cliche you'll hear about actors counting their lines or threatened if some of the lines get cut. And I feel like I'm always pretty happy to have less lines. But, you know, also talking about that, that made me think of this great story in the, in the John Ford documentary that Peter Bogdanovich did, where John Ford is doing a

Western, he's doing a scene with Richard Widmark and Jimmy Stewart. And neither of those guys had ever worked together. Here's their first day and they're doing a big scene kind of sitting by the side of the river. And right before the scene, Jimmy Stewart said that John Ford came up to him and he's like, watch, watch, with Mark, he knows every trick in the book. And then apparently John Ford had gone to Richard with Mark and say, be careful with Stewart, he's a good country actor. So both of those guys. Be careful. Watch out.

And then they show the scene in the movie. I've never seen the movie. I've just seen this scene. And it's one of the greatest scenes ever because you feel like it plays like in one shot and you see all of that kind of happening. When Widmark starts talking, Jimmy Stewart is rolling a cigarette. When Jimmy Stewart starts to say something, Widmark's doing something. And by the end of the scene, they're kind of smiling at each other like, look at this old boy. What's he up to?

That's exactly what the scene was supposed to be. And it's just incredible. was supposed to be and it's just incredible. So in that idea of doing, having bits of business to do, so when you're acting, you're not just standing there, you're doing something because as people we do stuff all the time. And in consequential actions. And if you do that, you've been doing this for a long time. Does it ever bleed over into life where now you find yourself doing inconsequential actions because that's what you, you know, you do it so much in work, does it ever bleed out into life? Yeah.

I mean, because a lot of conversations in real life are fake. And so whether it's something just a kind of entertain yourself in the scene that you're doing, you might be doing something. And then every once in a while you'll come across a person that they get, you know, like the Richard Widmark Jimmy Stewart, where it's like the person like, oh, okay, he's doing a bit of it. And they get a kick out of it, or you see what they're doing.

And that can be the basis for a friendship. Personally, someone. You could have a whole another storyline going on in real life, in addition to what's on the surface. I feel like I do a lot of time. I've given that kind of example that I sometimes feel like it's like invisible ink and that I'm talking, you know, a lot in life and I'm saying the stuff to people that works in

the scene, you know, of this. But if that person happens to have that pen and is able to draw it, they can pick up on some of this other stuff and get a kick out of it. So it can work in both ways. And then I also, I'll sometimes see that with somebody else. It's almost like a feeling of, you know, that you get from a person that it's all like kind of, you know, it's all kind of, uh, make believe, you know, or that it's all kind of a little bit sometimes an act, uh, or maybe, you know, that it's, I saw now you'll see sometimes bumper sticker

thing or sticker on somebody's water bottle relax, it's just a dream. It's, you know, so I don't want to make it sound like it's, you know, nothing means anything, but the idea that I think that can be kind of a nice idea. The idea that isn't so important. We're not so serious. Not so serious. Not so serious. Yeah.

The thing he said before about after the first day shooting a bottle rocket and hearing about the result of seeing the dailies, the person who came, you said they had this energy about them. And that's an interesting thing to talk about because energy feels authentic. Do you know what I mean? You can hear people who say words that are the words that they think you wanna hear.

Oh yeah. And it's completely different than when someone comes in with good energy. Yeah. Yeah, because I still remember the way David Wasko looked when he came up to me, you know, in the lobby of the hotel, that, you know, that day, and it just, I just believed him when he said it seemed really great what he had seen

and it's going to work. That was, I just, you could feel it and yeah, and it's funny, you know, I know, you know, my dad's in kind of advertising and so I'm definitely, if somebody asked me about something that they've worked on, I'm going to, you know, if it's too late to change it, I'm gonna try just to be like, I think it was great, I think you did a good job. I'm gonna try to make the person feel good.

And there are people, you're maybe a bit more like this, where you won't really try to sell the person on that they did well. And I think most people are kind of a bit more like, yeah, that was great. But it's nice when you can really, of course, believe when the person did do great. And then there's some people that probably just have kind of like an energy that's kind of, whether it's convincing or not, it just feels good and you don't just don't mind hearing what they have to say.

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black pepper, and chocolate dipped. Snack bars come in chocolate, coconut white chocolate, and blueberry white chocolate. Visit houseofnacademias.com slash tetra. How different is it working with different director? You work with so many different directors. How different is the experience from director to director? It's not that different, I find. It's not that different even like on a commercial. It ends up being kind of the same sort of feeling where you're both trying to come up with something good and

and I find that the few times in my life that I have not had a good time doing something is because and it's only happened like a couple times is because I have not been able to get to the place where I've been able to sort of hypnotize myself into thinking this is good. And when I've gone like a whole thing never getting to that place that's really discouraging. And that means you're going to work every day or you're just feeling like, that doesn't work and that's a terrible feeling. Because when you're there, you want it to work or I do.

And so it's usually that kind of feeling that you're sort of looking for their expression, like I got from David Wasko that day of kind of energized or enjoying something or moved and and you kind of feel it also and so when you can Usually and and obviously I worked on a million things that didn't work out But in in the moment when we were doing it we we thought we were, this could be pretty good.

Is it difficult to memorize lines? That's funny, that's something that I always find people, sometimes people say, I could never do what you do. And I'm always thinking, I'm sure you could do it very easily. And they'll always say, I don't even know how you memorize the lines. First of all, you're maybe doing a page or two pages or three pages a day. So that's very easy. It's not like a play where you've got the whole thing memorized.

And it's not like you're memorizing gibberish, you know, a sequence of numbers. It's you're memorizing the way something's going to go. You're going to ask me like, you know, did you see the lifeguard stand down near the point and I'm going to say, yeah, it was weird. You could tell that the waves had come up almost to it. It's going to be a conversation that should make sense in your mind. Otherwise, you're not going to be able to do it anyway. If it doesn't make sense, then you've got to talk to somebody about figuring out why it doesn't

make sense. They can explain it to you because you've got to know, make sense in your mind what you're saying. Every single thing that you're saying has got a sort of, okay, yeah, I know what I'm saying this or why I'm asking that. So it ends up being a little bit, you know, I think it's pretty easy. Yeah, it's pretty easy. And if you know the way the story goes, even if you don't get the exact line, you know what's going to wear the story ends where you got to get to. So you kind of hopefully can say something to kind of edge it along.

It's a funny example you gave of the water coming up over the lifeguard stand because is I remember you and I body surfing, it's probably 20, 20 years ago in Manhattan Beach, and the waves were big that day. And I remember we were out there, and the last thing that you said to me was, because the waves were starting to come over the pier. They were really big. And the last thing you said to me, if the waves were starting to come over the pier. They were really big. And the last thing you said to me, if the waves keep building,

I think we're going to be in trouble. And then you were gone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was over at Venice. No, Manhattan Beach, I think, further south. Further. Because it was the Manhattan Beach pier.

Yeah. Is it Venice? Is the Manhattan Beach pier. Yeah. Is it Venice? Is it the Venice pier? Yeah, that's the Venice. We're Washington kind of runs in. It's terrifying. Yeah. Well, that's also, you know, if you've swam in the ocean much,

you do, you know, sometimes get, especially in Hawaii, but even out here, that feeling where everything's good, everything's nice, and then it's not. And you can get scared. And I know they always say, the big thing is don't panic, you know, that uses a lot of oxygen. But as soon as you get scared, you panic. I don't know how you can contain that. But I had that happening in a dialogue because I was being I was being drowned, being held under by the waves. I couldn't breathe. And I'm panicking. And I and the conversation I'm having with myself is No reason to panic panicking's bad panicking's just gonna use a oxygen and I'm drowning and as I'm drowning I'm panicking They can't you can't turn it off really

Yeah, yeah, I know the What where was that? Same, that same day. That same day. Yeah. God. That same day I got held under.

I don't know if we've even ever talked about it. I was right in the drop zone of the big waves and I was completely trapped and I got held under and then washing machine and then as soon as I came up for a breath, I came up with the job. I thought you were wailing. But you were drunk. Yeah.

Ha ha ha. I was looking out and I was waving with both hands back at you. Yeah. I thought, oh, there's Rick just larkking about. Who's the worst? It was our remember crawling onto the sand eventually. Yeah. And just laying there out of breath and eventually a lifeguard came over to me. It was nobody on the beach that day.

And a lifeguard eventually came over and it's like my friend, I think he's out there and I like, no, he was smart enough to swim out and swim around, he's fine. But thanks. Yeah. Well, I've had that feeling. Yeah, the first time I went to Hawaii was Kauai and probably like 28 and like, yeah, getting caught

in the surf or couldn't get back in. And my friend running along the beach and he was having to sprint to keep up with how fast it was pulling me down and it wouldn't let me out pass where the waves were breaking or where I could like get my feet down and it I just felt like I'm drowning and it's so scary. It's so scary and I remember getting where I was like I just don't have any more energy to keep going under the waves holding my breath and I'm just gonna let it kind of hit me

and I barely got sort of my feet kind of touched and then pull me out again, but I was able to kind of get in and there were two local guys that came running down and they, I remember them saying, bro, there's people way stupider than you that have drowned on this beach this year. They said something like that.

But I remember just sitting on the sand before they kind of got to me. And it was almost like kind of like, not quite crying, but like it was like an emotional feeling of just being spent and feeling that you came close. And yeah, so we both have had these experiences of where we felt kind of scared like, well, you know, whether we really were close

to actually drowning, I don't know, but it felt like, you know, I felt like I could have and you were shaken and that certainly didn't keep me from swimming in the ocean probably the next day. And... Yeah. And... I also got hit in the face with a surfboard and my nose was all bloody and like I've had

a bunch of stuff happen in the ocean but a surfboard and my nose was all bloody and like I've had a bunch of stuff happening in the ocean but I just love it. Yeah, I had a board hit me in Maui and it was my own board where I kind of jumped off the back of the wave and went under and when I came back my board had blown up in the air. It was blowing so hard and came down just as I was coming up and I had to get a bunch of stitches. But right, but that wouldn't you would think like, well that might keep somebody from doing something. But yeah, I just, you know, I just love it. And also even my older brother being, you know, bit by a shark right in front of me.

I didn't know that. Yeah, that happened. Andrew got bit by like a six foot black tip reef shark. Wow. And he's in the database for shark attacks. Wow. Yeah. And he, and that's right in front of where I live there on Maui.

And he doesn't swim out there. Anywhere he still swims in the ocean, but he doesn't go out there. But I still go out there. And I also kind of feel, now whether I would feel this in the moment, hopefully I could get to a place if you ever did get in a situation where I'm like, that's it.

I kind of do have that feeling of, I love the ocean so much that if that was sort of my karma, which I don't think it is, but that's where I'm going to sort of, you know, that'll be kind of it for me. I'm okay with that. And, uh, yeah. Remember the night that you came over, like two o'clock in the morning after seeing the luminescence for the first time? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like we're, like, we're, we're trying to figure out, like, how could, you know, we're trying to figure out how could we're wondering like it's thinking that it's kind of funny to continue doing something that you've had, you

know, maybe a near death experience, but now we're bringing up something that, well, that's exactly why. Because one time I went swimming and I'd never heard about these phosphorescence in the water. So I go down for what I think is just kind of a, you know, I'm just going to jump in the water. It's night time. And I jump in and all of a sudden it's lighting up. And... You send the middle of the night in the dark the whole ocean is lighting up every with every wave. Not every time I'd move my arms, every time I open my eyes, and just when I, you know, swim it lights up under water and never heard of it. No one would ever told me about it. So then I came up afterwards and I looked like, you know, I'm sure like kind of like somebody

almost like, you know, possessed or that it, you know, seen God. I was, it just seemed like an unbelievable miracle I had experienced. And then, yeah, I found out that I guess that can happen, you know, sometimes in the water where there's phosphorescence kind of light up, but if you've never experienced that, it is, I think one of the most incredible things. I think not knowing about it was the best part of your experience, because when I told you what it was, you were not happy. Well, it was a little bit like, yeah, I thought I had experienced a miracle and you were saying,

well, no, let me show you how this trick is done. It's this. And so it's a little bit of important dumping water on it. Yeah, kind of, yeah, letting the air out the balloon. Yeah, letting the air out of the balloon. I think, yeah, it's probably also kind of, I'm not somebody that, you know, when somebody does like kind of a magic trick, where I wanna figure it out, I have zero interest in figuring out. I want it to feel like magic and to feel incredible.

And that's what I wanna go with. I don't want to, you know, later. Why do you think he did that, you know, that doesn't interest me. It's so much better not to know. Yeah, feeling the mystery. But also, you know, false fluorescence. So that's something incredible that you can experience in nature. And I feel like even though I grew up in the suburbs in Dallas, a lot of being a kid was kind of riding your bike around the neighborhood, going down to the creek, kind of just looking around for adventure, kind of mischief or something kind of exciting. And your whole life is kind of the day time and then as you become a teenager you kind of start to see kind of the

mystery and the excitement of night and you kind of enter into that and Ford my 12-year-old I was dropping him off for this, you know, Halloween thing at his school, and it was in the evening. And I kind of walked him in and you can, his friends were running around and the girls were there and they're, you know, starting to have kind of crushes and stuff, and you could kind of feel this energy, and it was like, okay, he's kind of entering into kind of, you know, that the night can kind of be unbelievable. And I feel now I'm coming out of the night. I spent a long time, you know, in the night. And now I'm kind of going back more towards,

it's a little bit like when you're, you know, a kid where I like me even being up early in the morning, which I never liked. And it also kind of gives me a good feeling that it's going to be kind of, it's great being back in the day and being into that. It's great. Yeah. I'm saying same as you from the time that I was making choices on my own.

Yeah. I lived in the night. Yeah. And that switch to waking up in the morning and changing my hours has been the greatest change of all in my life. And no one could have told you that. Like, you know, when we first became friends, you'd stay up till, you know, four or five,

you'd sleep till, you know, one. Yeah. And it was, you know, till, you know, four or five, and you'd sleep till, you know, one. And it was, you know, about, you know, trying to sleep is through as much of the day so you could get back to the night as you could. And I could have, you know, I'd it up all night and never go to sleep. Yeah, exactly. And I could have, or someone could have said, oh, you're missing. Because I even remember people saying, yeah, if you don't or someone could have said, oh, you're missing, because I even remember people saying,

yeah, if you don't get up, you know, the more you're missing the best part of the day, you just know way you could get me to believe that. And I don't know, then all of a sudden, it just kind of flips again. Are we even the same people? Are we even the same, you know? Yeah, I guess because I feel like it's a little bit of a return to how, in my case,

I was as a kid, where I feel I did notice nature. Like as a kid, you're just kind of more, you know, you're kind of taking things in and you pay more attention to stuff and you know you're just because I think you're really looking at trying to figure it out. You're trying to figure it out and you're looking for some sort of kind of adventure or something you know fun to do. So everything you're looking at, you're looking at sort of, okay, could that be an opportunity to do something like climb that tree. And I wonder if we could like tie a rope to this tree. And you know, what about like these like the bluffs here over this creek? I wonder if we could

like climb up like you're just kind of looking or even just going down alleys and stuff. kind of looking, or even just going down alleys and stuff, looking for stuff. And then now, I notice a lot kind of just walking the dog like in the morning. It's like, I've lived in this, you know, for over 25 years, and I'm just now noticing some of these trees in the neighborhood. Now, you could take that as like a sad story like,

God, he's lived here so long, he's never seen it. I don't take it that way. I take it as an exciting thing like how much other great stuff have I been missing, you know, that's out there that I'm going to start discovering or seeing because of course that's, you know, one of the best feelings you can have is that you've saw something great. And the idea that there's more great things to see. Something really great about it, always being there and being right under your nose the whole time and discovering it.

You know, like you just found something. It's so cool, because the fact that it's been there makes it much more interesting. Right. I also have this app that, you know, this picture this, it'll tell you like what the tree is and stuff, so that's kind of gotten me a little bit more, you know, or I'll try to get the names. But I was thinking about a tree down the street from me that I found out since is called a Pearl Acacia, but it is the greatest tree that I've ever seen.

It was kind of blooming these kind of, you know, I don't even want to try to describe it. It's just great the way it looks and like it kind of was like a little bit silver, the tree, but it's, you know, without getting like two sort of cosmic, when I first saw it, it was sort of moving. You know, I was like, this tree is incredible. And, you know, it made me think, And it made me think then and probably now as I'm telling it, there's that E.B. White story, the second tree from the corner where the story begins, where the guy is talking with his therapist and the therapist says, well, what do you want? What makes you happy? And the guy is like, I don't know.

I guess no one really knows. And the doctor's like, well, of course people know. Like for me, I want to build an extension to my house. And then the patient feels a little bit like, you know, insecure that he can't really say. And then later when he's walking home, he sees this tree and the way it's lit, you know, by the street light, it just, and it's a great description in the story. It looks so perfect and beautiful.

He realizes that's what he wants, the second tree from the corner, and that he's glad that he's, you know, can't really explain to someone what it is he wants or what would make him happy. And so yeah, I just always like that story, but seeing that tree I could definitely feel that tree is incredible And it's great to be standing here, you know, appreciating it. So happy that I found it. And you know, honored back in the Netherlands and he'd kind of left when he was young, didn't feel he fit in, and you know, he's going to be returning to get some award, and he was a little bit nervous, because he hadn't felt that he really fit in when he lived there and was

talking to his brother saying, like, I don't know how I feel about coming back. I don't feel that people really got me there. I'm odd. Do they understand that I you know, I'm strange. I talk to trees. And I really like that story. Because, yeah, because you can, I haven't gotten to the point of talking to the trees, but I could see that maybe, you know, next year. It isn't great when you're walking down, or you're walking through a forest, and there are many trees around how certain trees

just like, I'm not going to say they talk to you, but they call attention to themselves in a way that this tree is different than all the other trees. Like it just pulls you in like the tree that you just described. Yeah, and it's like, it really, yeah, it is kind of a, this old boy here is. Yeah. He's really in it's like in Costa Rica, there are these big, big, huge trees that are covered in spikes. I've never seen a big tree covered in spikes before.

And they're everywhere. Yeah. What do you mean spikes? Like, little almost like what would be on a rose bush, except all right next to each other, all over the tree. And a big tree like, um, he like a big oak tree. So you're not going to climb it.

No, you can't. It's covered in spikes. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's why. Maybe it's a't. It's covered in spikes. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's why. Maybe it's a protection for animals not to get it. Yeah. The, uh, yeah, I remember being in India and I was like,

there's, you don't see any real vegetation because everything gets kind of used up as like kind of, uh, you know, a resource for something. And the only stuff it seems like that would still be standing would have to have like incredible spikes on it. It's interesting. It's kind of protected, but yeah,

I still sort of sometimes will kind of look at trees in terms of, yeah, would that be a good climbing tree? of, yeah, would that be a good climbing tree? Leisure craft. Builders of handmade custom sonas, hot tubs, and cold plunges. Constructed from the finest quality cedar, barrel sonas are the most efficient sonas shape. Sustainable and eco-friendly, family-owned since 2004, outdoor and indoor sonas, hot tubs and cold plunges, solid Canadian construction built to survive outdoor weather, hot or cold. You'll feel safe with leisure crafts, 5-year warranty.

An investment for generations to enjoy. Beautiful, timeless pieces. For better health and ultimate relaxation. Explore the entire collection at leisurecraft.com. I remember when I was in school studying art and seeing French impressionist paintings and the way the trees looked in the paintings where it was a series of colors, like there'd be a brown background, but then there'd be a big splotch of yellow, and there'd be a big splotch of like more of a mustard or a big splotch of kind of orange. And I was thinking at the time living in New York and seeing those trees in the paintings that, oh, that's part of the abstraction.

It's like making like these color, these blotches of color give an impression of what trees look like, but it's not accurate to the tree. And that's part of this style of art. And I thought that until I went to this, to, to South of France, and I saw the trees with the blotches on them in person. It's like, oh, they're actually exactly. It's like a photograph of these trees.

But because I'd never seen a tree like that in real life, I thought it was, you know, poetic, poetic painting. Yeah. The, I didn't realize you like, did you major in art? I was a film and television major, but I took a lot of art classes. But I do kind of remember that, you know, the, was it your, your, your mom's sister

was the one who would kind of take you to museums and, and that. And it's funny, you know, what do you think it is about art that does make people feel kind of a little bit nervous to talk about it? I guess because you don't want to sound pretentious. That's it, but it's too bad that we have that feeling, You're too bad that we have that feeling, but it can be pretty strong. I guess also the idea that you don't know necessarily what you're talking about and so that can kind of inhibit.

Why would it be any different than talking about a tree? I don't know. I think people feel that they're sort of their, you know, their street cred as a culturally literate person is kind of on the line in a way with, you know, paintings that doesn't happen with trees. But it shouldn't be, I'm just saying that just something that happens, it's a great feeling to sort of fight through and not to have, just to be able to walk in museum and I'm as equipped as anybody to talk about this painting or not talk about it, but appreciate it

or have a reaction to it. I can't remember if I ever told you a story, but I did this thing in New York, where we brought a whole bunch of people that I was working with in music to momma. And and I remember it was a lot of like people in their 20s. And there were, you know, hundreds on the staff of this company. And we all went to MoMA. And I thought people who were working in music to reengage with fine art would be a good thing.

It'd be a good thing for everybody to just like tune into that. Yeah, and I remember the feeling of blankness on the faces of a lot of the people and feeling like, oh wow, this was really maybe not a good idea. Yeah. And I got on an elevator with one of the people who seemed completely bored. And we get on the elevator and we're riding and he looked at me and he said, you know, I really wanna thank you for setting this up. I haven't been in the museum since I was, you know,

12 years old and it's amazing that I'm gonna bring my whole family back this weekend. It's blowing my mind. And I had, I just read it completely wrong because they had this blank look on their face, you know? That's kind of, I put that, you know, that you completely misread that person. And that's like, you know, not having noticed the tree down the street. Like, I think that's kind of a good thing to sort of keep in mind, is that

you can sometimes completely misread things, and it's not the sort of maybe negative take you have on it. In that case, I had something where I was working on a movie and in the scene, my character is with his wife and we're kind of these kind of, you know, kind of this kind of white trash couple and we're going to go into, we're stolen some money and now we're going into, into the mall to buy some stuff and we're going to buy, you know, kind of, you know, ridiculous kind of things. And the director is pitching lines and he pitches, yeah, you can say, and we're going to, we're going to buy, we're going to get you some braces to fix those horse teeth of yours. And when he said it, I felt terrible because the actress playing my wife in the scene she did kind of have, you know, her teeth didn't look a bit, you know, slightly off, you know.

And I was so embarrassed and I could feel her flinch when he said that. Of course, I didn't say it in the scene and then afterwards in the guy, the director is a really nice guy, but I went up to him afterwards and I said, please don't ever put me in a position like that of saying something. I'm not going to say something to someone, you know, kind of mean like that. You might think it's funny, but I don't. And even for these characters, and he was like, oh yeah, yes, yeah, I understand completely that.

I'm so sorry. Like, did you know those are fate teeth that we put on her? And I didn't know that she had fake teeth that they had put on. And so when I imagined her flinching, that's what it was. I was imagining that. And if that does kind of happen with us, that might be a nice way you can sort of, you know, when you do have the feeling of somebody doesn't like this or somebody, then you just, you could be wrong. You could be completely wrong about it. And if you could be completely wrong, why not go with the good story? Yeah. Yeah, we never know. We never know it anywhere else is thinking. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, but I have a tendency to go more sort of, you know, thinking, you know,

other, you know, right. Yeah. We don't know. The story about the, um, the extension on the house. Yeah. It's interesting because in, um, interesting because in the Clint Eastwood movie, unforgiven, his foil, I can't remember the name of the character, who's playing against Clint. But Jean Hackman's character, and Clint's about to kill him and he's like, but I was building an extension on my house.

Like do you know like how we can get? He says that? Yes. I thought he says this isn't fair and he's like fairs got nothing to do with. That's part of it too, but he says, but I'm building an extension like that. Like that. Like that, that we get so obsessed with the things that we're doing that here in this life and death situation.

Yeah, right. It's like, no, it doesn't make sense. I'm still doing this other thing. Yeah, yeah. So I'm sure whoever wrote the script got it from the E.B. White story. I wonder, yeah. It's two, it's two on the E.B. White story. I wonder. Yeah. It's two, it's two on the nose. Are you sure? It's that.

It's an extension on, because as soon as you said extension on the house, like, I know that reference. Yeah. Yeah. And that's not what it's about. But in both cases, it represents something like a small material action that seems important versus a bigger cosmic question. Yeah. When you sort of misspoke there for a second and said, Cliff, you think about Clint Eastwood because I know you've said that before that can you believe that Clint Eastwood walks this earth? Like, he's unbelievable. You know, that guy from High Plains Drifter and Dirty Harry, all those movies, but then trying to think of would he be the same person if that was his first name?

Cliff is hard to imagine that being the same person, which makes me think that I'd run into Steve Kuggen and Steve Kuggen was just finished playing a role and he said that day had been a fight scene and he'd kind of said, you know, the person, please don't hit me. And I was trying to imagine Clint East would ever sing that in a movie. Please don't hit me. I can't really imagine that. That's more of a Ric Flair line. It's such a cowardly thing to say. I can certainly imagine one of my characters that I've played saying, please don't hit me. But you can't imagine Clint Eastwood saying it.

And in fact, when you have Paul Newman say a version of that in Cool Hand Luke, it's a heartbreaking thing because it shows they've broken him when they kind of do that stuff like, you know, or they just keep him up for days and digging a hole and then put the what you're dirt doing in boss house, you know, boss house, oh, get that dirt back out.

And then, find as I please don't hit me anymore, please just, and it's just heartbreaking to see somebody broken. But yeah, I had that feeling with, I went through a phase where I thought it'd be fun to learn to ride a horse. And I went with a friend, a friend's girlfriend who you know a long time ago, 25 years ago, yeah, who was really into horses. And I went with her to the stable where she rode. And one of the horses escaped. And one of the handlers was grabbed the escaped horse and he was whipping the horse. One of handlers was grabbed the escaped horse and he was whipping the horse. And I started thinking about the whole idea of breaking horses and I decided I didn't want

to ride. Like it was too much, it was too much. Yeah. Yeah, I don't even like sometimes, you know, when people will say, oh, you got a, your dog, you know, a beading school or learn, like I don't really want got your dog, you know, obedient school or learn, I don't really want my dog heel, you know, those sorts of commands. I don't really love when I see somebody with their dog, even if it is incredibly well-trained.

I don't love seeing heel. And, you know, I would rather teach them you know something else or have them yeah I just don't kind of yeah that's not something I kind of want to see yeah the other side of it though is like we see from exercising that like having the discipline in a practice really feels good. Even though it's me, you know, like the doing of it, we don't necessarily look forward to the doing of it all the time, but what we get from the discipline of doing it feels really good.

Yeah, and maybe also to a dog, you know, they do sometimes want to learn something and want to, you know, or maybe like everyone want to kind of accomplish something. And I'm thinking also somehow I started thinking about, well, with my parents, it was kind of had to or big on manners and then I sort of try to do the same thing with my kids. Well, I think that's kind of a good thing, though, having, you know, good manners, but there is kind of an element to being a kid that I always remember in last

angle in Paris in that scene where Marlon Brando's with the girl and, you know, they're kind of just laying around and she's saying, and clearly his response, I think, must have just, you know, not been scripted. But she's talking about how beautiful and innocent it is being a child, which, of course, is an adult. You kind of look back on in that way which isn't you know necessarily true And so she says that thing that everyone just sort of accepts kind of yeah beautiful being an innocent child but Brando Says is it and he goes and she goes yes, it's so kind of wonderful He goes is it beautiful to be made into a tattletail or be forced to admire authority?

And there's a big element of being a kid that's that. You know, certainly with school and stuff. And you know, it's an element of that and so yeah breaking breaking everybody down so they'll kind of conform. How do you feel like your life would have been different if you never would have gone to any school? I think that I don't think that school is so important for what you learn because obviously it doesn't really stick with us or certainly I don't remember anything from geometry, cosine, that type of stuff.

You're not going to remember. I think what is really good at the school I went to in Dallas, I was around, you know, smart kids and funny kids and I think that is very valuable and you know, they had us reading good books and stuff. So I think, you know, maybe not getting great grades and is so important and that maybe just because I didn't, but I think there is something... The social aspect. Yeah, being around because it goes back to making connections. So, just being in someplace where you can connect with people, I think is important. And so, you know, however that is, or wherever that is, then, you know, I think that's kind

of, that's kind of good. Did you have a lot of friends at school? It was more like one or two. I had a lot of friends kind of as like a little kid and then kind of into school and then in college it was more just kind of a few. But I think that might also be, you know, what we kind of talked about earlier, it's easier, you know, to make friends when you're little. You're kind of more open and then, you know, I don't know what kind of happens, but as you get older, you get a little bit more sort of blocked off. Are you kind of have your friends? Judgeful, maybe.

Yeah, yeah, and you're kind of, you just don't maybe extend yourself or other people don't in that way. What did you study in school? in that way. What did you study in school? I was a English major in college, and I was reading something recently about how, you know, that's like dying out that major. There's an article about how, you know,

it's dropped like 50% and they're kind of even getting rid of it. Wow. And that everyone, I don't know, it's dropped like 50% and they're kind of even getting rid of it Wow And that everyone I don't know doing Business and stuff Seems like it served you well better like literature Yeah, I don't know I really feel that you know I The stuff that I learned

The books I kind of learned it, it almost seems like by junior year, I don't really remember. I didn't have a great class in college and you know, with a teacher that like, well that had a big impact on me. I did kind of when I was younger, but yeah, I don't know that I, you know, picked up that much in college. That's an interesting thing. The whole here-and-miss teacher, you know, if you happen to be lucky to have one great teacher, it changes everything. Yeah. And so many of them, we don't get so much from. Yeah, I think it's just like anything. It's like, you know, we go to the library bookstore, you know, how many books are you going to pick up that you love or, you know, TV shows or movies

that you're really going to connect with. And so, yeah, there's, you don't, in there aren't that many, you know great teachers Just like there's maybe not that many great anything Really great and then also, you know, it's and you can't maybe lay it all on the teacher sometimes It's where you are you're not necessarily gonna be open or Responding to somebody. But, and there's back to that kind of that, you know, brand of thing. There's an element of school that's about sort of being forced to admire authority. And following me.

Yeah, that you can sort of see as kind of ridiculous or that you can kind of, you know, but heads against. And I think sometimes, yeah, you know, emotional intelligence is not going to be rewarded in school the same way a kid who's like, okay, so you want me to do the problems like this, this, and this, and then hand it in. And you know, that kid is going to do better than a kid that's, you know, powering back,

yeah, powering back then the kid who, you you know is going to give a Colorful answer to a banal question touching off laughter among the other students That kid is not going to be Belose like the teachers like the introduction to your autobiography Well, I'm just thinking of a kid that the history teacher also taught was the baseball coach.

And this is maybe in, you know, seventh grade when he'd turn around to write something on the chalkboard. This kid Chris would stand up and do like a little dance. The teacher would turn around real fast and just caught him this one time. He's sitting back down and the teachers like, well, Mr. Kaiser, that's two strikes on you. Do you know what happens next? And Chris said, I don't know, so I don't follow baseball. Great line. I know, and the Dean and Mr. Bachelors exploded. Yeah. Get out of here.

Yeah. And yeah, I had a teacher that got, I remember, furious at me. Yeah, I mean, you know, you could see how, yeah, you could get on the nerves of some of these guys. But there's also something I think that's another fun thing about school. You're talking about how would your life have been different? Well, you don't get a story like that unless you're in school in kind of an authoritarian place.

And I went to kind of like a progressive school, but the way stuff is set up It is, you know, you're gonna listen to this and you're gonna be quiet now and there is something in those situations that can Be a good, you know fertile ground for coming up with funny stuff Remember how great it was when they would bring in the movie projection show movie in class? It's the best feeling in the world. Right. So much fun.

Even if it was bad, it was good. Exactly. I remember like, you know, when they were, or, or, you know, saying on the radio, like, snow days going through and this school is not meeting in this and waiting, you know waiting to see if your school is going to get the day off and just it's the best feeling in the world. And it's sort of like that, right? If every day, that's also maybe something good sometimes about work, is it makes you,

you know, the weekend is a lot more fun if you've had to work, you know, oh, it's all, the weekend is a lot more fun. If you've had to work, you know, the other days, you appreciate a lot more. I remember when I was a kid, I broke my leg skiing. Only the only time I've been skiing my whole life, I broke my leg, and I didn't have to go to school for like six weeks, and it was the greatest. It was. And you didn't hate school, either, did you? No, but not going to school and being able to watch TV during the day was unbelievable. Yeah, what do you think it was?

It's just like, I mean, think about it. Showing up to anything is hard. Yeah, yeah. Just showing up. Yeah, which is why they say a lot of times. Half of life is just showing up. Yeah. There's a great thing.

Russell Brand has this, an audiobook. I think it's only available as an audiobook. And he talks about being invited to something that sounds great, you know, in two months, two months from now, there's this event and you, it sounds great and you agree to do it. I mean, the two months come and it's the day of it and you're regretting it, always. Yeah. And he said a good thing that he does now is that anytime he gets invited to do anything in the future He always thinks about it as if I have to go right now and do it

To weed out the reality of you know the because two months from now everything sounds good right I just had that yeah, right kind of been asked about doing a commencement. And I had been asked a couple times years ago, and it kind of, no, no, I chickened out. And this time when I was asked, I was like, okay, maybe I'll do it. And then as I really thought about in a couple months, and I've got to say, I can't do that. But I did say, you know, if we could, you know, maybe plan ahead maybe next year and they said, yes, we'll do it next year.

And I was, you know, so relieved, great, you know, because it seems so far away. But I'm sure, you know, as I get up close, it'll be, what was I thinking? But sometimes it is good to make yourself do stuff. Absolutely, you get surprised, you get surprised. Yeah, right. So there is something to be said

for being made to do something that you don't wanna do. Absolutely. Today being a perfect example. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know, I wonder also if, you know if you said you were a little bit like nervous in the beginning, maybe you picked up on me kind of, I don't know if I really wanna go do this. And I think part of the struggle is,

we talked about kind of connections as that, okay, so we've been friends for a long time and sometimes we can get on a roll where we're really having fun talking and really get laughing about something and that's great. And yeah, you'd love to be able to get that, but then it just seems like too big a mountain to climb. How are you ever going to get, you know, be able to communicate some of those things to

somebody and it just gets discouraging it. To me, it's like learning like another language. Like, I'll think about, God, I would love to be able to speak, you know, anything, you know, Spanish, French, Italian. It would be so great. And then I think about it was so hard for me to learn English and get all the, because I think I do pay attention to language.

And when you kind of get like a good word and the idea of starting over in a new language just seems like you know climbing Mount Everest and so maybe that was kind of the feeling like You know like yeah, how we ever in this sort of format Going to talk get to where it feels just like talking in real life And maybe that was sort of you know a little bit get to where it feels just like talking in real life.

And maybe that was sort of, you know, a little bit of it. I don't know. Yeah, it might have been an unrealistic expectation. Yeah, right. It just is whatever it's gonna be. Yeah. And any expectation you put on it just gets in the way. Yeah, exactly. And also, I mean, we've had experiences where we're really laughing about something

and the people around us are like, I don't know what they're talking about, but whatever it is, I guarantee it's stupid. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know. Yeah, because I remember us, like there was some, you know, where I'd going to eat and there was some sort of

miraculous coincidence that it occurred to you that you relayed to me that I was just blown away by. But our dinner companions, they didn't seem to think it was much of anything. Not a plus. Yeah, I'm not a plus to the extreme. non-plus. Yeah, I'm on plus to the extreme. And so yeah, that's a really funny thing too. Like seeing something so funny and someone else doesn't see it at all. There's something really funny about that too. Yeah. About the the miscommunication or the not getting you. The miscommunication and not being understood or failing. Yeah, there's something. Yeah, I think that can be, that's really.

But, and I think that because it kind of can tap into sometimes that futility that we all sort of can, you know, sometimes get hit with that kind of sycophine sort of, you know, what's the thing? We lost the race a thousand years ago. Exactly. And, but then when you're able to, you know, I don't know, I do, I think that is kind of another nice thing about the way that they have kind of, the game rigged is that failure can be really funny and, and, and, uh, and, uh, luckily, yeah. Well, we had that experience together where we went to a meeting at a big company, talking about an idea that we were excited about and, uh, it was not well met.

No. Not only that, we going into the meeting, uh, I don't want to say it was a case of, you know, Icarus, but we really felt, you know, we had another person with us for the meeting and that this was there going to be kind of blown away. Absolutely. By these ideas that we had really... I thought they weren't going to let us out of the office. I thought they were going to let us out of the office.

They were just going to hold us there to keep working on. First of all, just when we showed up, I thought they were going to rush down to greet us, which didn't happen. Yeah, I think they're going to roll out the red carpet. Yeah. You said, we did, we wait about an hour. It felt like we, they kept us waiting for like an hour and just all my confidence just disappeared. You know, the place where we were waiting, confidence just disappeared. You know, the place where we were waiting, the feeling was, it was closed. Like I felt like they invited us there before,

like an hour before they actually opened. Yeah. Remember? Yes. It was like a, And it was like a hospital like a, like you know, body there. And it was very white and minimalist.

And it was, it was really like that. Oh, and a cavernous space with no people for a long time, for an eternity. Yeah, yeah. And then kind of, there's that Fitzgerald thing that he wrote about visiting his wife who had kind of lost her mind. And he said, I lost my small capacity for hope and on the small roads leading to Zelda's sanitarium. And I felt that we lost our small capacity for hope

and that waiting room, that day. And then we go into the meeting and... Even before the meeting, we were go into the meeting and even before the meeting we were walking into the meeting and you shared a very funny story of something that just happened to you. You prompted me to share that I didn't believe was going to land well with with these executives and I was right. You were right. It didn't land. In fact, they took the other side of like an argument that I had had. And then we go into the meeting and I maybe said a couple sentences and then I just sort of faded away and I don't think you said I just shut down. I don't think I said anything. I could see. I just got all glassy, too.

Yeah, that was just bombing. And then you, I think, were barefoot. And so I also was thinking like, what were we thinking? How could we think that we could come in here? And we've got no business in here We don't belong here and luckily The other guy with us did kind of you know

kept talking and he actually said it went great. We should say the third guy with us who was experienced Yeah versus us. I believe was wearing pajamas Yeah versus us. I believe was wearing pajamas. Right. And maybe like a Fez cap. I mean, I don't know maybe the pajamas were a bad sign. Yeah. And again, that's, you know, I've, you know, been in pitch meetings, you know, a lot over the years and that continues to be one of my, you know, most memorable and it couldn't have gone worse, but like we were saying, there's something kind of funny about this. We're failing.

With, yeah. Again. Like you're swinging and nobody even pitched. Yeah, just like swinging at the wind. A thousand years behind. Running a race that ended a thousand years ago. Running your heart out. Not realizing that you'd been laughed a million times.

This is incredible. The, um, but tell me about your mom when you were a kid. This is incredible. But tell me about your mom when you were a kid. Oh, yeah. You ever go to her photo shoots? Yeah. Well, I did because when she was working with Richard Avedon on the in the American West Project, that went on for 10 years where it'd

go out for weeks at a time to you know different places in the West and rodeos and you know just visiting different places to find people to photograph. So a couple summers I went with them when I was a kid and yeah, but I mean, yeah, I mean my mom, right, my mom's a photographer and, you know, I kind of associate with interrupting you a lot, you know, when you're playing or doing something to take a picture. So didn't love having my picture taken. I still don't love, love it. But, um, yeah, do you get to meet Avedon? Yeah, I mean, I got to meet him, I got to meet him a ton because I was like he was like, he had a lot of enthusiasm and energy. It's also a cool looking guy.

I don't know how he dressed in New York, but when he came out for these. He had Boots City War and a cowboy hat, but not like a big cowboy hat, kind of more like one of those LBJ color and size. And so he kind of looked cool. And then I, he loved those Louis Lamore Westerns that I read a ton of and so he would send me those and you know boxes of them and so we kind of connected over that and he even sent me Warren Peace which I still haven't read but along with all these Louis Lamore westerns and this is probably when I'm like 12 with a note saying, you know, this is a book that I love and you know, it might be, you know, advanced for you now, but maybe at some point, you'll, you know, want to take a look at it. But yeah, so we kind of, yeah, I really liked him. And he did, yeah, he did some photographs of me and my brothers that my parents were really excited because, you know, it's Avidon and, you know,

he'd been on the cover of Newsweek and the idea that he was going to do these portraits of us was like a big deal. And I remember he sent them to us for Christmas and my parents were kind of excited. And when they kind of opened them, the pictures were a little bit sort of in that mode of in the American West. It wasn't the same kind of photographs that my mom did of us, you know, for Christmas

cards and what she tried to show, which was maybe this sort of, you know, idealized version of kind of boys like, you know, having fun and this and his pictures were a little bit more kind of unusual and then later when, you know, we started getting into trouble as teenagers and stuff, my dad would kind of think back to those Avedon photographs and say that's what made Avedon a genius. He could see what was coming with you guys. That's great. Because he wasn't showing us these kind of fun loving. Yeah.

Yeah. But yeah, you know, what was your relationship with your bad luck when you were a kid? You know, it's hard to kind of, you know, I came across like a note that my mom wrote my aunt and she's talking and, you know, I must be really little because Luke's not born yet, but she's talking about my older brother and me and she's saying Owen and so I'm probably like two or three you know maybe just turning three and she said Owen has a very idolized as Bobby, my dad, and has a very zany sense of humor and doesn't like having the same books read to him twice, which is kind of funny because it does seem like kids like having the repetition.

But so when you ask the relationship with my dad, I think I did kind of idolize my dad But I think both my brothers did also he just was really funny No also, you know, you kind of were you know, nerfed you didn't want to like You know step out of line too much But just a really too much, but just a really, I don't just a great guy. So if something was bothering you, if something happened to you, my dad was a great person to talk to. I think that he was like a sensitive kind person, which didn't mean he was like a pushover at all, you know. And so that's what I mean about sort of expecting you to sort of, you know, have good manners and, you know, behave in a thoughtful way also.

But I think a big thing was also my dad's friends. He had these great friends that I just thought were really funny kind of charismatic guy. So kind of sitting there at dinner and kind of seeing my dad with his friends and seeing them kind of joke around. I think that had a big influence on us. And yeah. I remember there was a story where you had a job when you were a kid and you thought that if you could make them believe that you weren't that smart, they would give you less work

to do. Yeah. I think that's continued a little bit in, in sort of life and in my career lowering expectations, which is, you know, we're talking about doing better when, you know, when you kind of, there's less pressure. And so in this job, I was a runner in college at a law firm and they'd send me out to, you know, go pick up something and bring it there and get something and come back with it. And I'd always kind of, you know, make them kind of explain it a couple times. And usually when I was

out doing it, I might stop by the magazine stand and kind of read for a while. And anyway, one time I'm coming back into the office through the back door and I hear the assistance and secretaries talking and one is saying, he's just so stupid. Like you tell him something like he's like, wait, so you want me to go down that street and then go right in her imitation of me with so dumb sounding made me sound like, you know. You know, Lenny from of Mice and Men that I even though that had been, you know, what I was trying to do with lowering expectations, I was still, my feelings were

hurt when I came in and heard this imitation and and my pride was such that I quit the job on the spot. So funny because you were purposely trying to make them think you weren't smart enough to do much. Right. And they believed it. Yeah, they believed it. And you quit based on them thinking you weren't smart enough. Amazing story.

Yeah. Yeah. Did you always, always like hanging out in bookstores, even as a kid? Yeah, I mean, I remember, you know, we're talking about my mom being a photographer and she had some photography books come out. And my dad did some books, but my dad kind of being

in advertising and public relations, he would go up to the bookstore and always be kind of, you know, on them about displaying my mom's book in such a way. And I just always remember as a kid, I even remember the names of the bookstores, I just always love going to bookstores. Well, because they usually also had magazines too, so that was fun to see. But even as a little kid going up to my grandmothers, there was something called the bookmobile that was kind of like you did.

You did? Yeah, sorry. Going into that and getting books. And, yeah, I just, I loved reading. And it wasn't anything, you know, like for school or anything. It was just interesting. Yeah, just a little library all the time as a kid. It was my favorite place to go. I don't remember that there being a bookstore

in my little town when I was growing up, but the library I would go to all the time and just anything that I was interested in I would stay all day and either read the books on the subject I was interested in or get like microfilm of old either articles, or it was just so interesting that I, you be able to go back in history and look at something that happened 50 years ago. Just interesting how it was reported. Well, it's kind of flipped for me because you're talking about subjects you were interested

and so as a kid, I was just reading fiction. So it was any sort of, I love these, the great brain that those series of books and Hardy Boyce. And Cyclo Pedia Brown, we talked about the Louis Lamar Westerns, those SE Hinton books. But, and then there are a lot of these sports books about like a kid dealing with something

that I think it's Matt Christopher was that author. So they're just like kind of kids books that I loved reading. Hardy boys. Yeah, the hardy boys. I had all those. I love those and their chum, chet, jolapi. their chum, chat, the jalapi. And that's actually fun, you know, now with my two boys is reading stories to them. I haven't noticed, you know, either of them reads on their own the way I do,

but they do like still having me read at night or make up stories, but we read Shane. That was something I read in seventh grade that I loved. They were really into that. They were on Treasure Island now, and those books hold up. They're good. But anyway, I was talking about the way it kind of flipped. So yeah, as a kid, I loved reading those.

And then sort of in college, I kind of, it was then sort of reading about something I was interested in. So I could have a paper on the Berlin Air Lift and I'd go to the library and all of a sudden every subject. But that was really interesting. So a history of backgammon. Let me read about that. And so, yeah, and you could just spend so much time in it. I don't know, it's also probably, you know, I think that's a nice thing about museums, people quiet looking at things, maybe even the people that you meet there be around and I think that can be relaxing.

And yeah. Should we go eat? Yeah. It's great, though, it is. Yeah. I'm going to go to the beach. you