Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Richard Rudd

Episode Date: January 31, 2024

Richard Rudd is a renowned poet, mystic, and teacher. After earning a Master’s Degree in metaphysics and literature from Edinburgh University, he worked in the film industry in Australia, trained as... a teacher of Chi Kung in Thailand, and sailed across the Atlantic Ocean on a small yacht. Then at the age 29, he had a transformative spiritual experience that led him to conceive The Gene Keys, a book that took seven years to write. Today, he teaches globally and was recognized in 2019 as one of The 100 Most Spiritually Influential Living People by Watkins. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: House of Macadamias https://www.houseofmacadamias.com/tetra ------ Squarespace https://squarespace.com/tetra ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://drinklmnt.com/tetra

Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 I was living in Maui in my 20s and I was living in Maui in my 20s and I spotted a guy in a health food shop and he had a big beard and I was immediately attracted to him, there was something about his face and so I just, I didn't kind of do anything about it, I just saw him and I just thought I'm really interested and I felt a draw to this man anyway. A couple of days later I saw a picture of him up on a notice board and he was, yeah, and so I saw a picture of him on a notice board and he was advertising these things called human design readings which I hadn't no knew nothing about. And so I called him up and he came over to the little house I was living in and his name was Chaitan Parkin and he's written several books on
Starting point is 00:01:11 human design now and he's a really great teacher and he gave me this human design reading session in this little house in Maui and it was really a profound moment I just just caught my caught something in me, caught my imagination. What year was this? Oh, early 90s. Yeah. I had no idea it's been around that long. Yeah. Well, yeah, Ra, the founder, Ra Ruhu, he kind of received the teaching in 1980. Ra R.A.? Yeah. Yeah. And he's a really interesting character. He received the teaching in 19... RA, RA? Yeah. Yeah. And he's a really interesting character.
Starting point is 00:01:45 He received the teaching or the transmission of that in 1987. And then it took him some years to kind of pull it together into a system and start teaching it. Do you know what his background was? Yeah, a little bit. He was a maverick. You would have loved to interview him. He was kind of genius, I would say. Intellectual genius. I don't know. I think he'd been a businessman and he was Canadian. His original name was Robert Krakauer. And he had a successful business of some form. Anyway, his story, he told beautiful stories, was one day he was driving somewhere to pick up something for his interview he was doing or something.
Starting point is 00:02:34 And he left the car running and he went into the shop to pick something up. And he just had this moment and he just said to the person behind the till, do you have a back door? And the guy said, yeah sure, that way. And he just walked out the back door of the shop into another street and never came back, left his car running.
Starting point is 00:02:57 And never came back and he just left his life. Maybe he had a wife, I'm not sure. And he just, he headed off as a nomad. He disappeared from his life. Maybe he had a wife, I'm not sure. He headed off as a nomad. He disappeared from the world. Everyone wondered what happened to him. He ended up on the Isle of Ibiza in the Mediterranean, living on someone's roof. Just followed. He didn't take any money with him and he just had to kind of…
Starting point is 00:03:22 Do you know how old he was at this time? I'm guessing he was like 30s. Yeah. Anyway, so he ended up living wild on the island of Ibiza and living in a tree is what he tells the story. He's like, he got this chair and he pulled it up into this tree and he lived in this chair in this tree. And I think he was experimenting with
Starting point is 00:03:45 several kind of plant medicines and things. And he went really out because he cut himself off from the world that he knew and had vanished. And so that was in that state, he received this huge teaching, this huge transmission that lasted eight days. And he received it from what he called the voice.
Starting point is 00:04:07 That was all he ever said, the voice. It's kind of scary how he talked about it as well. And there's loads of good things online listening to him tell the story. He tells it way better than me. He's a wonderful storyteller, beautiful voice, speaking voice, resonant, deep voice. And then out of that journey, he started eventually,
Starting point is 00:04:28 he's kind of a mizzenthrope, Ra. He had this kind of very cynical about the world and people in general, he really liked people, he was a real recluse. He loved animals and dogs and he had this beautiful dog and he loved nature, that's why he lived out there. Yeah, so that was the story of Ra receiving this massive kind of teaching.
Starting point is 00:04:51 And then he started to put it together and slowly he went to Germany, ended up in Germany, he started teaching it in Germany with this guy called Jürgen Sauper, who was one of his first students. And I met Jürgen, he was a lovely man. And eventually he started, you know, it started to form a little community around it.
Starting point is 00:05:12 It started to kind of become quite crystallized. And in the beginning was the teaching just in his head? There was no writing yet. There was, he hadn't written anything. He was a speaker, so he kind of spoke a lot and then people would transcribe. And then he did write a book. It was sort of an initial book. It's known as the Black Book. If you can get hold of it, I'm sure it's still around. And then it was sort of raw teachings about his version of the Yi Qing, of unlocking the Yi Qing
Starting point is 00:05:41 and using it in a completely different way with this body graph, you know, this graph which you've probably seen if you look at human design there's nine centred graph with these different connecting pathways channels. And it was a really innovative way of applying the Qing into the body and into psychology and sociology and and it really has, human design has a sort of fractal layering, so you can apply the principles across multiple subjects, you know, from physiology to, you know, and that was interesting, kind of exploring some of the genetic patterns. That's where I learned about all that stuff from Ra. Well, he wasn't a scientist, but he knew he had a good grounding into the sciences.
Starting point is 00:06:27 But and he had a very dark sense of humor, right? And he wasn't into the new age or the spirituality and its kind of modern form. He was quite cynical about it. So you know, he was a wonderful teacher to be around. I met him in New Mexico. So from Maui, you had the experience first, and then you went to seek him out? Yeah, I think it was maybe a year later,
Starting point is 00:06:51 a couple years later when I got back to the UK, which where I lived, and then I thought I was gonna go and study the system, learn more about it. And so I went to New Mexico to do a course. And I did this course, wasn't with Raj, she was with another woman called Zeno, who was sort of one of his main kind of proponents at that time. How many other practitioners were there at that time?
Starting point is 00:07:19 It was establishing itself. It was sort of the early days, so I'm guessing there were a few hundred. But there was a, you know, it had that kind of fresh, wild sort of wisdom feeling. And there was this community gathering around it, and there were really interesting people. And there was this feeling that we've kind of all found something really magical, you know, and it was emanating from this man who kept kind of coming out with new layers. And it was all inside him. It didn't, you know, and it was emanating from this man who kept kind of coming out with new layers. And it was all inside him. It didn't, you know, he would just sit down in a room and he just, he had a subject and he would just teach from this voice that came through him. And he was an amazing thing to be in his presence. There was a palpable kind
Starting point is 00:08:02 of energy sitting with him. You felt like you were in the field of a revelation that was fresh and that was emerging. And the first time I met him, I sat in the back of one of his classes and he would just lecture. That was his, he just lectured. Everyone was silent, he just talked. There was no interaction or there might have been some questions at the end maybe if you were lucky. And then he'd sit around afterwards or in between smoking joints and just drinking black coffee and people would gather and that's where you would have dialogue and asking questions and conversing with him. So it was kind of wild.
Starting point is 00:08:37 It was a wild teaching that came into the world and then it became more and more formalized. Tell me more about what happens after that. Well Ra came to me and we had a kind of affinity. He was a difficult man to get to know. He had an energy that was sort of a bit, fuck you, keep away. And that was like a shield around him. And it was very hard to get through that. Certain people seem to have the key, but not very many.
Starting point is 00:09:14 But you wanted to be around him because it was this source of wisdom. And as I said, it was palpable and alive. And he came to me and he said, it was palpable and alive. He came to me and he said, Richard, I would love you to set up a school in the UK, because you've, you know, he kind of saw that I was intelligent and grounded and that I might be able to do something with this. I was really kind of excited about that. He said, look, I'm going to give you the rights.
Starting point is 00:09:44 I'm going to sign up for the rights so you can do it in the UK. So I set up a school. You know, I didn't know anything about setting up a school. I'd never taught anything in my life. And so- You have a plan to have a different life. Yes. What was the original plan?
Starting point is 00:10:00 Or what would you think it would be? The original plan. I was gonna be a wine and spirit merchant, a wine merchant, which is my family business. Yes. Yeah. And that was kind of, since I was like 14 or 15, that was what I wanted to do. That's what your family did and you liked the experience.
Starting point is 00:10:15 It's a beautiful life. Yeah. Beautiful life, nice lifestyle, really good business. It's one of the oldest wine businesses in the world. Real reputation, Barry Brothers and Rad limited. Most people in the UK who know anything about wine will go, oh, Barry Brothers and Rad. Yeah, they're really great. It's an amazing, iconic British brand, you know, sort of up there with other iconic brands. And often has had a long tie with Buckingham Palace and you know managing the Royal Salos and all that kind of stuff
Starting point is 00:10:47 Yeah, so I did so I didn't go that route because this other route opened up and I started exploring these other things and So yeah, it was a it was a thing for me then to start teaching This wild new thing that no one had ever heard of. But it was exciting. Did you have enough information to be able to teach it? I did by them because when you're interested in something, you're passionate about it, I became obsessed by it. And many people do become obsessed. So you learned everything there was to learn about it.
Starting point is 00:11:21 Yeah. I hung off his every word. I had, I kind of had about six or seven private sessions readings with Ra, which you had to pay a lot for, you know, but I just like invested in that. And I wanted to know everything. And I, you know, there was everything he'd ever said. Basically, I absorbed over a period of years. And then I started to teach it and groups came I absorbed over a period of years. And then I started to teach it and groups came and I had articles that came out in papers,
Starting point is 00:11:53 you know, some of the big papers in the UK. But some people got hold of it. There was something new and interesting. And you had these charts, these human-designed charts that were kind of alluring. So would it work like, would you say it'd be a form of psychology? Yeah, a little bit. Like, people would come to it out of wanting to get insight into themselves. Yeah, exactly.
Starting point is 00:12:17 So, it was anyone that was curious about self-knowledge, this was for them them because the human design gives you an imprint. It kind of works through astrological information. So you give your birth date, time and place, and then it factors that into a grid where the Yi Qing is kind of laid out in a circle, which is really interesting as a whole sort of story behind that. Traditionally, when you see the Yi Qing, it's in a square, you know, has these hexagrams in square. So putting it around a wheel was really interesting because it enabled you to kind of understand
Starting point is 00:12:53 all kinds of hidden relationships between the symbols, these hexagrams, and then placing those into a graph of the body of the sort of symbolic graph of the body, called the body graph, enabled you to kind of say things about someone. So you had this… Is it related to Shakras at all or no? Right, I would say that it was a kind of updated version of the Shakras. So it went from seven till nine and he talked about us being a new kind of transitionary being. And so that the Shakra was now an outdated model. And this was,
Starting point is 00:13:32 this also kind of brought in the tradition of the Kabbalah with these roots, these pathways that connect up these spheres. Like the tree of life. Yeah. so it synthesized quite a few, although it didn't synthesize the specific teachings of the Kabbalah, it definitely had a visual connection to its tradition in some way. And so you could look at this body graph and you can still do it online and get a lot of really interesting information. But essentially what it did is it gave you a strategy for living your life, very clear strategies. And so when I first had it, my strategy and most people's strategy actually is to wait. So it's like the first thing Cheyton said to me is you need to be really patient. You need to learn how to wait.
Starting point is 00:14:32 Life will come to you and through your responses, things will flow. And so it was a kind of dauest type teaching. I believe it's a Kabbalistic teaching as well. But then there were certain groups of people who didn't have to wait, right? They were caught. So Ra began to kind of categorize different types as... But it was all based on this chart. Yeah. And based on their birth date. Exactly. Yeah. And it was always a little bit strange that because Ra was really not into astrology. Yeah. And had no real training in it. And I think was a bit embarrassed about that aspect of it. It's so fascinating to have that trust in something and to doubt aspects of it as not
Starting point is 00:15:10 making sense yet in practice it works. You know, it's like getting past any beliefs or baggage that we're carrying and seeing, well, in practice this is working. It's just interesting. It is interesting, yeah. And it was really interesting that it came to him. Yes. A man that was quite skeptical. And it speaks well for the work
Starting point is 00:15:32 that it could come through him even though he was skeptical. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and he, I think there were a lot of questions he couldn't answer and never answered for as I'm concerned. But, you know, that's another story. And he was a really interesting man.
Starting point is 00:15:52 I think I knew him to a fairly good degree. Yeah, and then my relationship with that system changed over the years. You know, the school I developed became quite successful. It grew, we had sort of trainings and I laid out a kind of program for people. I got really into it and did a really good job of it. But then what happened to me is I started to feel constricted by its language and by the kind of categorizations and the
Starting point is 00:16:26 narrowness and I kind of felt like everyone's just going out and parroting this stuff and it was true people were just parroting Ra as you'd have a chart and you'd say you'd have the same reading from him as you'd have from someone else and it just felt a bit kind of rigid even though the strategies and things were really useful, I think. I mean, I applied them in my own life and things took off for me. But what was ironic is I applied them in my own life and then I started to diverge from the system naturally. And I wanted to explore it in a wider way. So I felt uncomfortable for several
Starting point is 00:17:03 years with that and I didn't quite know what to do. And I began to tinker with the language a little bit and open it up. And I think, you know, Ra was quite for that. He saw that I was reading the formulas really well because it was a system built of formulas, you know, formulae in terms of language formulas because it was analyzing the, you know, the change.
Starting point is 00:17:24 It was like a framework and you were building on the framework. Exactly. But then I wanted to innovate more, because I was frustrated with the language, and I felt like the language wasn't, well, it wasn't fair. So in other words, you'd have someone, and they'd have a chart, and if you followed the language, you'd given quite a negative-sounding reading. And reading and if you had someone else and had a different kind of chart they'd leave with quite a positive sounding reading and I felt like the language that he'd used in this basis it was arcane for one thing it's very
Starting point is 00:17:57 difficult to understand some of it but the other thing was that it just didn't feel like it had a balance. An example is I might say, oh, to someone you have the channel of struggle. So you're designed, human design, you're designed to struggle in life. And that's a pretty intense thing to say to someone. And then another thing you might say to someone, oh, you can't trust in your intuition.
Starting point is 00:18:24 And that's also a pretty heavy thing to say to someone. And so I couldn't say those things. And so I started to question it. So I was a person very highly trained in it, deeply questioning it, which was interesting. I was one of the only people really doing that. One or two others began to. And because I was in this position of authority,
Starting point is 00:18:45 it was a bit tricky. And then I started to formulate a whole new language for it. And that was when- Still rooted in the same principles, but changing the language to be more as you saw it actually working. Yeah. I mean, I'm a language lover, right? I'm a linguist. I was trained in literature and poetry and, you know, I've written a lot of poetry and had some awards and things. So I kind of really love language.
Starting point is 00:19:14 And so I started to apply that love of language into the system and into the Yi Qing. And essentially what I did is I recalibrated the entire language. But then what happened was that I started to feel pushed out of the community, because it was a kind of human design community, I started to feel squeezed out of the community by not even so much rabbi, the people around him, they weren't approving of my language. I'd kind of diverted from the dogma, essentially. Yes.
Starting point is 00:19:47 So what happened is I kind of had this very difficult situation where I just realized I had to leave and start anew. And I built this thing. You know, I had a successful school. So anyway, I decided I'm going to go to Ra. And what I'd also seen is that I'd seen him break with many other people over the, you know, he was a difficult man. He wasn't particularly empathic. He didn't really want to hear people. He just would cut them off, you know, if they didn't, if he didn't agree with them. And so there was a lot of littered, kind of messy financial relationships that he left behind and there was a lot of sort
Starting point is 00:20:26 of scandals and things and I decided I was not going to let that happen and so I went to Ibiza and I met with him and stayed with him for a couple of days and just talked it through and said look I'm going to have to leave and I want to go my own way but I want to give you back the rights because you gave them. And I could have sold them, you know, they were worth something. But it felt clean like he gave them to me. I gave them back to him. Yes. And with the recommendation for someone to take over as well. And he had the same, you know, he agreed with the person who took over it from me.
Starting point is 00:20:59 So it was kind of a clean break. And then I set off and started to create something completely new, which in time became Jean Keys. And how long did that process take to piece together the Jean Keys? Yeah, that took, it was a sort of rolling, flowing process. It was like assembling a big kind of cosmic jigsaw puzzle. And bit by bit, year by year, it started to coalesce and come together. I started to meet interesting people who brought kind of key components like I met this guy who had a deep understanding
Starting point is 00:21:37 of sacred geometry. And he showed me how I could apply these principles also through sacred geometry. And that really helped me create a profile of my own, which has the spheres and pathways, but isn't the same tool as Raja tool. It's more a sequential kind of tool for understanding the path of your life rather than the imprint of who you are. So if you look at human design, it's like, this is claiming to say this is who you are,
Starting point is 00:22:11 which I'm not comfortable with anyway, any piece of paper telling me who I am, I don't want to know. But this is your journey, that was more palatable for me. These are the archetypal stages of your journey through life and that's what the Gene Keys started to become. And then I integrated a lot of that knowledge I'd learned from Ra and I had my own big mystic experiences a couple of times, a couple of them. One before I even met Ra way back and that sort of informed where I was going. Tell me about that experience. That was in the 90s and to get the order right.
Starting point is 00:22:51 It was before I met Ra. I woke up one morning in my bed into an altered state of consciousness, spontaneously. I woke up out of sleep into a fully awakened state, which I'd never, I recognized, but I'd never been in one before. I was interested in those things, but I hadn't taken anything. I, you know, it was just a spontaneous thing.
Starting point is 00:23:16 And it was a beautiful metaphor. You wake up out of sleep into awakeness. And that stayed with me for three days. And I traveled around. How was it different? Tell me how it felt different. There was no resistance in my body. All resistance or fear had just been taken away from my body. I mean, I can't explain that but I felt for the first time ever utterly free because there was no definitions there was nothing clinging to me there was no fear there was just
Starting point is 00:23:51 no resistance so I felt energy flow pouring through my body in a way that I can't explain like I felt cosmic consciousness pouring through my body it wasn't even my body. It was just, but I was a localized kind of point of it and I had no idea. I mean, I didn't question it at the time. I just like, I mean, I remember having a thought, I wonder if this is going to last forever. I hope so. That was my thought. I remember that thought. I really hope this stays. Yeah. And no idea what brought it on. No idea.
Starting point is 00:24:26 It's completely spontaneous. A causal in that sense. And yeah, later I had some insights about it, but you know, it's still a mystery. So for those three days and three nights, because I didn't really sleep, I either just drink a lot of water, I didn't eat anything,
Starting point is 00:24:44 and I just traveled through the cosmos, and I just made the most of it, actually. I didn't know it was gonna last three days, but I just, something in me was saying, you need to learn as much as you can out of this state. And so I just traveled with my kind of higher mind into the fractal universe. I asked so many questions and the answers were just instantly there. And there were places that, I mean,
Starting point is 00:25:14 I asked questions about my future and some of the answers were there, other ones weren't. There were definitely areas where it's not permitted. I was really interested by that. Like, oh, so omniscience even has its kind of blind spots. You know, I thought there was something beautiful about that. But bigger things I could see, more local things about me and my life or my love life or those kind of things. I didn't see everything. But I did see big stuff. Like this is how the universe works. This is our relationship to the cosmos, to the void and the time that we're in and the epochs and our ancestry and our lineages. And I filled notebooks with images and texts and graphs and it was like
Starting point is 00:26:06 Over those three days. Yeah, it was really something maybe it's that personal aspects of it are not written in the same way That the in person yeah that the big systems are yeah, maybe yeah maybe and also maybe It's just not permitted because it would I I think in a way your own soul might be saying, you don't want to spoil the movie, do you? Really? You know, it's like the deep part of you saying, you don't want to know this. You think you do, but you don't want to know when you're going to die or how you're going
Starting point is 00:26:43 to die because those kind of questions. Yeah, so it was, yeah, it was really extraordinary. And I remember sitting on, because I traveled throughout the UK in those three days and everything had a mystical significance. Every place I went to, every person I met, every, there were a lot of strange events that happened to me. And I ended up on this remote island off Wales called Bardsy Island and I was sitting on the top of the hill, little hill, and I had to find a fisherman to take me out there. And I just knew I had to go, there was a very clear voice
Starting point is 00:27:21 in me just saying, go here, do this, you know, and it was just all laid out. And I had to go to this island. And so I went and found this fisherman who ran me out there and just left me on the island for a day, there was nothing else there really. But it had legends around it. Legend was that Merlin was buried there and that, you know, it's called the Isle of 20,000 Saints.
Starting point is 00:27:43 It's like, it's the end of a very powerful pilgrimage route from the Middle Ages. Like lots and lots of people used to go there as a culmination of their pilgrimage. So I sat on that little hill in the sort of wind and light rain and then this this experience that I was having kind of fell off me like a blanket. It just kind of fell back into the earth and then I was just left as this guy again. You know, I joked the other day I said, I was telling this story, I said, oh no, not this guy. You know, with all his neuroses and whatever and vulnerability.
Starting point is 00:28:26 So beautiful that you got to have that experience. Yeah. It was an epic experience. Yeah. It's never kind of, it's always been with me. And in a way I've been unpacking it ever since. Welcome to the house of macadamias. Macadamias are a delicious superfood, sustainably sourced directly from farmers.
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Starting point is 00:29:25 No preservatives, no palm oil, no added sugar. House of macadamias. Thy roasted with Namibian sea salt, cracked black pepper, and chocolate dipped. Snack bars come in chocolate. Coconut white chocolate and blueberry white chocolate. Visit houseofmacadamias.com slash tetra. So then you spent years developing the Jean Keys. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:30:05 And did you start teaching it right away or did the book come first? Yeah, I wrote the book first. I started teaching some innovations on the 64 hexagrams. I call them then the 64 gifts. I discovered these gifts in each one. I wanted this new language that kind of was a bit more upbeat. And as I went to teach that course, it was about 100. Tell me this is right. It wasn't upbeat for the sake of being upbeat.
Starting point is 00:30:31 It was upbeat because that's how you actually saw it. Yeah. You weren't sugarcoating it. No. No, no. And the story was that I was on my way to this workshop, to teach this workshop, which was well subscribed, a couple hundred people in Newcastle and I was on the train.
Starting point is 00:30:48 And there's a friend of mine, Verna Pitzal, who is a Austrian psychotherapist, very kind of astute student of psychotherapy. And we sat on the train and we were talking, he was kind of coming to support me and new human design and he was one of my friends from that era. And I was showing him these gifts.
Starting point is 00:31:11 I said that there's 64 gifts in the Yi Qing. And then we were talking on the train and we said, you know, there must be shadows in each of these gifts. There must be like, what is the shadow? So we spent the train journey four hours exploring the shadows of each gift. So in the Jinkies book, I then wrote down those shadows and explore them in more depth. And we also discovered that underneath each shadow was a sub-layer of a repressive and
Starting point is 00:31:42 a reactive kind of aspect of these patterns. They're just basically human patterns. So by the time we got to the workshop, the Newcastle, we had a whole new set of keynotes to work with. So I had GIFs and Shadows, and it was like a really cool spectrum. And then that evening, before I went to bed, I just thought, there's another level. Because I have this love of threes and trinities. And I was like, what's the transcendent level?
Starting point is 00:32:14 If you have a shadow, and then you have inside that shadow potentially a gift that can be born, and a shadow being a victim pattern, a human victim pattern, might be a form of conflict that we create in our lives. It might be failure, it might be one of the words, failure is one of the words, right? And how failure can undermine the thought of failure, the fear of failure can undermine us. But the same energy of failure, the gift could be called preservation. So it's like that same energy, like if you could use the energy at a higher level, then you might choose to preserve something beautiful for the future instead of being constantly undermining yourself. So you might actually find something creative to do where you're like passing something onto future generations. Something very, the gifts were very creative.
Starting point is 00:33:06 Anyway, that night I thought there's, you know, 64 keys of transcendence. And they came all that night in a kind of rush, all of them. They came in an hour. Wow. You know, like really fast and clear. And they came out of that height, that heightened state that I knew from my mystical experience. And there were words like compassion, so that one preservation become veneration. And then I saw whole lineages behind them.
Starting point is 00:33:32 I saw like, wow, the whole lineage of Buddhism is a lineage through that key. It's so interesting when it comes through like that because it becomes so clear in an instant. Amazing. Yeah. And then there was like compassion. I could see the whole story of the Buddha and the Christ coming together through that one. And the shadow, you know,
Starting point is 00:33:55 because I knew the Yi Qing as well, and there was 64 of these, the language was rich inside me, like a fractal language that I was discovering. And I was really excited. And so I arrived at the course the next morning for this whole language unprepared. And I just said to the students who were there, I said, look, I can teach you the course I plan to teach. Or on the way here, it's completely changed. I can just teach from there.
Starting point is 00:34:22 And they all were like, yeah. So I taught for the first, I guess the first ever Jinkies course, but it wasn't called Jinkies. And we start to explore it in the room live and it was powerful with... So what's interesting, what I'm hearing is when you see the thread of Buddhism or the thread of Christ. Yeah. All of these systems, or the Yi Qing, all of these systems are descriptions of the same thing. Yes. But seen through a different lens, a different eye. You know those gods with the thousand eyes? Yes. It's those are or the peacock.
Starting point is 00:35:03 These are all just different ways of accessing essentially the same information. Exactly. The same stream of love, wisdom, divinity, but through these different lenses. You know, it was beautiful. And ironically, back when Ra gave me a reading years and years before, he said I would do this. He didn't know what it was. He said you will codify the spiritual ways, all the spiritual ways. And I had no idea what he meant when he said that. That's what I ended up doing. He died by the time I started doing it. Amazing.
Starting point is 00:35:41 Yeah, it's nice that image of the different lenses. It's interesting. It's interesting that it's nice that image of the different lenses. It's interesting. It's interesting that it's all descriptions of the same. We think of them as opposing forces when that's not the case at all. No, totally not. Yeah, that's why you could equally say nothing. I think that's why Lao Tzu and those other great sages just said, well, better if I don't say anything. Because if I start talking, I'm talking down a stream and people
Starting point is 00:36:14 will think that there's importance in that stream and there's so many other routes. Tell me how the Gene Keyes is arranged in the book. Well, it's simple really. I took the Qing and I decided to kind of illuminate these words that I'd found. So I'd found, as I said, 64 shadow words, 64 gift words, and 64, I call them cities. That's the Sanskrit word, city, some may have heard of that. There wasn't a word in English to describe like an enlightened, realized state that was different to other states. So 64 cities. And that I called the spectrum of consciousness.
Starting point is 00:37:00 And that was the language framework that then became this book. I decided just to write each of those hexagrams and explore them. And so I took them at random. I didn't take them from one to 64. I just thought I'm gonna start with 10 just because it was the first one on top of my head. I don't think I did start with 10 actually.
Starting point is 00:37:21 And I just contemplated it. And I didn't refer to any old texts or each in books. When you contemplated it, did you contemplate the word? Yeah. Did you look at the hexagram or no? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, but I didn't analyze it. I didn't go, oh, that's heaven over earth. I just looked at it. I kind of had an understanding of those things. I had studied with this incredible man, Hua Qing Ni, Chinese master, master of the Yi Qing. He's got a wonderful Yi Qing book, Hua Qing Ni, one of the best books on the Yi Qing. And he was like an old, I think he's a 74th generation teacher of the Yi Qing, like really long lineage. You know, reading his books has a certain energy
Starting point is 00:38:06 signature that he weaves into the books. And I think as you read his books, you get a sense of his enlightened consciousness. Where's he based? He was based in the in sort of Oregon area, West Coast somewhere. His he's got two sons who now run a, a kind of Chinese medicine university, you know? So he taught a whole load of Dow teachings. And I met him when I was out in the, in the US and kind of became one of his mentors. He called them mentors, like not one of his mentors,
Starting point is 00:38:43 but like under, I was a, you know, he kind of permitted me to teach in his mentors, but like under, I was, you know, he kind of permitted me to teach in his name, if you know what I mean. Yeah, so, and he was an amazing man. He was like this golden orb of a man and beautiful presence to be in. He had this incredible wisdom. Have you always hunted down great teachers?
Starting point is 00:39:03 Not always, but some came to me. They seemed to be Taoist teachers. The other one was Mantak Chia, who's a completely different kind of teacher who I studied with for many years, doing Qigong, and he was a much more technique-oriented teacher. Every at his books. Yeah, great, great kind of crazy man. I love his way of teaching.
Starting point is 00:39:24 Very technical, very practical. Yeah, but also the Tao, that seemed to be, I had a strong draw. I mean, I went to India in those places and I also explored the Shakras and those kind of teachings and a bit of Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism. But it seemed to be the Tao that had a deep hold on me, these Chinese sages. Yeah, so that's how I wrote the gist. So I contemplated each key and however long it took me, before I felt like I had something to say. But what happened for me is it became alive. So I took three keynotes and I contemplated them and then they came
Starting point is 00:40:05 alive in my life in some way. So something happened, like an event or if it was failure or something. Suddenly I met someone who had just failed dismally in something and there was this whole story and or sometimes it was my own experience. Something came up for me. You would have an experience that would give you insight into the subject. Exactly. So that's how I wrote the book, out of a living understanding. So some keys came quite quickly, and others took a long time, months before, and until something had happened I couldn't rewrite about it. And yeah, so it was a real process
Starting point is 00:40:46 and it took about four or five years of writing the first pass of the book. And then I got a whole of an editor who helped me refine. And then I wrote another whole layer to it because I wasn't, it didn't have depth. It didn't have enough depth. So I then kind of, I went in and I did another rewrite, which was more focused, you know, all in one burst. But it took a couple more years.
Starting point is 00:41:13 And then so in total, it took about seven years. Did having all 64 in front of you help the refining process? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. It actually, the strangest, the strangest feeling when I put the final full stop on the last one, I was happy. And the last one was Jean Kee 22. I, it was one that I was never happy with. And then I suddenly got it after I'd been very, very sick. And it's the key of dishonor and grace. and it's really like a master key. Those double digit numbers are like there's something special about them, 22, 11, 33 and they have some special kind of teaching in them. Anyway, so I'd got to be sick.
Starting point is 00:41:59 My whole family was sick and I was sort of trying to care for my young kids while they were sick, while I was sick and it was just a miserable, miserable time and my wife was sick and you know, we were all stressed and it was awful for like two or three weeks and then out of coming out of that sick period, I wrote the 22 and then finished the book and it was all about the nature of suffering. You know, that's what it's about, that one. The kind of core nature of suffering and what I call the sacred wound.
Starting point is 00:42:29 And when I finished, I had this strange experience of like, wow, I've somehow taken the experience I had in the 90s, that three-day experience, and I put it in a book. I realized that I'd done that. Without realizing that's that I'd done that without realizing that's what I'd done. Just the stream of that kind of awakened consciousness, seeing it through all these lineages and lenses, I had been guided to do it in this book, The Jean Keys. It was then called, at the end I called it The Jean Keys.
Starting point is 00:43:01 It's like, and I wrote the introduction at the end because I had no idea how to use it. Yeah. How'd you come up with the title? I think it was a title I played with early on because I realized the relationship between DNA and the Yi Qing, you know, which you and I were talking about recently. And it's an extraordinary mathematical relationship. It is pure mathematical. Like so when you look at the hexagrams of the Yi Qing and they're made up of trigrams, which are made up of, so hexagram is six lines in a line, and there are either broken lines or unbroken lines, Yin and Yang, they're called. And those are when you have a broken and an unbroken line, that's called a bi-gram. So in other words,
Starting point is 00:43:42 when you combine them in twos, you end up with four biograms, right? And those relate in a way to the four bases, nucleotides of DNA, and then they form triplets through what are called trigrams, which are combinations of those, you know, those nucleotides. And then they expand out into 64, which are the codons, you know, the patterns of our genes, of our DNA. So any geneticist will recognize that language instantly and go, oh yeah. But also when you go deep into the each hang and you see that underlying structure, you realize that that is the pattern for life. So
Starting point is 00:44:20 And it's in a 3000 year old book before any of the western understanding of disinformation exists. Totally. Totally. And it was a guy staring into the back of a tortoise, you know, on the, that's the legend anyway. Sitting on the edge of the Yangtze River, the tortoise climbs out, this guy is lying there in the sun and he looks at the tortoise's back and the kind of interlocking patterns of the tortoise's back and he suddenly has this epiphany and he writes down the, he draws these diagrams, these trigrams and that becomes the foundation for, you know, what's called the bagua, which you see on the Korean flag, for example, you know, it's that.
Starting point is 00:45:03 And that then spawned the Yi Cheng as an oracle. They eventually became an oracle. I think in its early days, it probably wasn't used in that way. I think it was used as a spiritual practice, because that was how I, that was how the Jinkies used me. I became its student and through contemplating them, I changed something in my DNA. And by the time I finished that book, I was different. You know, I literally had gone through a whole cycle where my biology changed, my shape changed. I had the same experience with people who've translated it. I had this lovely man, Oli, who's Romanian, who translated the Genki's book into Romanian.
Starting point is 00:45:44 And he came to me and he just, he was cursing out. He was, he would love him. He was Romanian, who translated the Ginkis book into Romanian. And he came to me and he just, he was cursing out. He was, you would love him. He was a drummer in a death metal band, right? I don't know how he got to be the translator of the Ginkis, but his life utterly changed in translating this book. And he lost a huge amount of weight while he was translating it. And he went through a whole series of revelations.
Starting point is 00:46:07 In the early days, I joked as if this is a book that talks to your DNA. And I think it does. I think many people have that. Well, it's up to yours and that's why it exists. Exactly. So there's something, there's a fundamental pattern somewhere at work here. And then I started to explore it in other areas as well and I started to, you know, musicians would start coming to me and saying, you know, the octaves are also a 64, the eight octaves and architects would come and say, well, you know, the Phi spiral and the Fibonacci sequence, like those are also 64s and then
Starting point is 00:46:42 our technology, you know, 64 bitbit technology that allows the computer to operate and our phones. It's all 64-bit technology. It's the same binary coding that is littered throughout the universe. Even some of the kind of fringe physicists are saying that the potential physicists are saying that the potential structure of space-time is a 64-fold tetrahedral grid because you see it kind of, you know, when you map these geometries, these sacred geometries, vector equilibrium, and you're mapping the kind of structure of space-time, it also may well have a 64-fold pattern. So it's a fundamental pattern of life and what came out of that, and this was the understanding I had in my three days that we live in a hologram, a fractal hologram where everything is a map of everything else. So that contained in one kind of tiny photon
Starting point is 00:47:48 is the whole universe or contained. It's the inside of Blake, the great poets or Shakespeare. And everything is encoded inside everything else. So we're living in this simulated holographic universe. I know that's getting kind of deep, but that's the revelation of this code of the DNA of the gene keys. So that's why I called it gene keys,
Starting point is 00:48:14 because I realized these were keys that related to our DNA. And I wanted to make that link. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. It's interesting. So much of today's life happens on the web. Squarespace is your home base for building your dream presence in an online world. Designing a website is easy, using one of Squarespace's best in class templates. With a built-in style kit, you can change fonts, imagery, margins, and menus, so your
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Starting point is 00:49:23 The SquareSpace app helps you run your business from anywhere. Track inventory and connect with customers while you're on the go. Whether you're just starting out or already managing a successful brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create and customize a beautiful website. Visit squarespace.com. Tetra and get started today. I had an idea. How about take a look to the Art of Contemplation and read us something that speaks to you? Sure. Let's see. Here's a nice part. You know, the reward of pausing, right? The mind of light. Your new gift of insight can bring some extraordinary rewards into your life.
Starting point is 00:50:21 Chief among these is lucidity of mind. After some time you will find that your mind grasps the essence of any particular problem spontaneously and effortlessly. The main hallmark of a lucid mind is its ability to transform any challenge into a creative opportunity. As you learn the art of contemplation you will even find that your thinking itself begins to pause, as little spaces begin to open out between your thoughts. A clear mind repels both doubt and confusion. This new sense of inner spaciousness can give you a fresh confidence in the power of your own mind that you will transmit everywhere you go and in everything you do. I'll just say one more bit.
Starting point is 00:51:06 In Japan where the art of contemplation has been perfected through the incisive practices of Zen Buddhism, one of the characters used for the word contemplation is, and there's an image of the character, the literal translation of these two characters is light flashed through the mind. Many human beings have ensured that the mind operating at its highest potential is connected to the notion of light. We speak of flashes of intuition, of illumination and enlightenment. All the great mystical traditions are lewd to this inner light that exists in a
Starting point is 00:51:40 state somewhere just beyond our ordinary mind. The highest goal of the art of contemplation is ultimately to reveal this inner light. So that's, you know, that's the reward of learning the art of pausing, which is the foundation principle of learning to contemplate. So in contemplation are the spaces between the light as important as the light? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, and you know, this book came about after the Jean Quise, and it's funny in a way because I kind of wrote it in response to my father who, when I showed him the Jean Quise books said I don't understand any of this and he was a practical man you know a business man
Starting point is 00:52:28 and so I said okay I'll try and write something else you know and it wasn't I wanted to write this book anyway because I realized people were asking me how do you do the Jean Quix like I love the wisdom and they and there were these profiles that you could get and you can explore all that stuff online, but then people would say, how do you do it? And I said, the secret is the art of contemplation. So I wrote this book, The Art of Contemplation, short book. It's my Desert Island book, under 100 pages, where I just distilled everything down to
Starting point is 00:53:02 this single technique that is ageless and timeless and hasn't really been explained very often, strangely enough. I mean, we have a lot of descriptions and techniques around meditation and mindfulness, but not so much what's contemplation. We kind of tend to think it's like thinking about something a lot. And so I took this beautiful word, contemplation, and then in this little book show how it's a spiritual practice that many people can grasp very easily, much more easily than meditation. And it might include meditation as well, or it might not. It might include riding your bike, it might include meditation as well, or it might not.
Starting point is 00:53:45 It might include riding your bike. It might include playing music. It might, you know, contemplation is a very broad, generous creative field. You can do anything in a contemplated manner. So it opens up a whole beautiful technique. And what I just read is one of its highest possibilities is that as you learn to do things in a contemplative way, which involves pausing,
Starting point is 00:54:14 because contemplation is not a fast word, right? It requires that you do things slowly, and that you pause in between activities so that you can integrate things more clearly. I mean, this is how I wrote my GeneKey's book. I took seven years contemplating taking my time, not rushing, not kind of planning. You can't plan contemplation. It's not a strategic word.
Starting point is 00:54:44 In some ways, the book on contemplation is a how to read the Jean Keys. It is. It's how to do anything. It's how to do anything. It doesn't even mention the Jean Keys that much. Yes. You know, there's no jargon in it. Yes. No, and it just, it's how to do anything. So, in a way, if I've ever written a masterpiece,
Starting point is 00:55:05 I say it's that little book, you know? Because it's just distilled and it's practical and anyone can learn to pause. Anyone can do it. If I wanted to get into the Jean Keys, what would be the entry path? This, I would say, learn to contemplate, you know, and you can apply it to business. You know, if it's something that leads you to lucidity and wisdom, surely that is the most
Starting point is 00:55:36 precious thing anyone can have. I mean, there's love, but it's an aspect of love. The mind of light is wisdom and love coming through the mind. You know, so it's the heart mind at work. So if you can see through the heart in lucidity, you can apply that to every decision you make in life. And that decision will be a decision rooted in flow, good fortune, rhythm, harmony. But you know, you have to slow down from being in a stress state. And that's what this little book kind of invites you to do.
Starting point is 00:56:16 Makes you more relaxed. Tell me about the triple flame. Yeah, the triple flame is in the back of the book are a bunch of little exercises that I Wrote later and I just thought here are some fun things you can do To help you enter the field of contemplation an example is as a whole section on lingering, you know, it's like Try and linger a bit more. No, it went often when we finished something We rushed straight onto something else. And actually lingering is that quality of just being a little bit more lazy and just allowing
Starting point is 00:56:52 things to just stretch out a little bit more. And it's in that lingering, and I use the example of you having dinner with a bunch of people and then some of you have to go home but you decide to stay on. It's in that lingering state that the most interesting things always come out. for people and then some of you have to go home but you decide to stay on. It's in that lingering state that the most interesting things always come out. There's few people left, there's three or four of you there. You're lingering, maybe you had a few drinks or whatever.
Starting point is 00:57:15 The conversation suddenly opens up. It's like it's off the record in some way. And you can apply that lingering to anything in life. And I say, there's other words like sauntering, meandering, like if you're walking somewhere, give yourself a bit more time so you're not rushing in a straight line from if you're going to work, give yourself an extra 10 minutes and go through the market just for the hell of it, just all along the river, just for the hell of it. Because when you get to work, I guarantee you'll get there in a way better space and more prepared.
Starting point is 00:57:48 It's powerful in that so much of today's society is about efficiency. Yeah. And this is the anti-efficiency message, which is really helpful. It is. But ironically, it actually creates more efficiency. Yes. Because you don't waste energy because you have lucidity. So you rush decisions, lead to wasted energy.
Starting point is 00:58:10 You know, stressful decisions lead to wasted energy. Things go wrong. So you waste energy. It's entropy. It's one of the things with meditation where I've heard, it said that, you know, I don't have time to meditate. It's like, if you spent half hour meditating, you would have so much more time in your day. Exactly. Yeah and so the triple flame is a little pausing technique that's a bit more structured and we created an app for this, the triple flame app on the app store.
Starting point is 00:58:40 And it just requires pausing every three hours for three minutes. So really simple. I don't think there's anyone that can't do that. It's that simple. So three, six, nine, twelve o'clock, you pause for three minutes and the app just gives you a little ding and you can either choose to do a little guided three minutes meditation or chanting or whatever you want.
Starting point is 00:59:03 Or you can just sit quietly, or if you're in the middle of an activity that you can't stop, you do it for three minutes in really intense state of kind of relaxiveness and awareness, mindfulness. So you start to create these little pauses throughout your day and then you start to string them together day after day after day, week after week after week, month after month after month, and it starts to have a really strong subtle impact on your biology, on your psychology, on your emotions, on your, you know, you start, that's why I said that the reward of pausing is eventually you have those experience of the mind of light. You begin to see
Starting point is 00:59:50 things in real lucidity. You actually begin to inhabit a meditative state because you've kind of tricked your body into pausing and what will happen is you will pause outside those three hour windows. You're training yourself to be able to pause. Exactly. And then you will also probably what will happen is you will pause outside those three hour windows. You're training yourself to be able to pause. Exactly. And then you will also probably what will happen is you'll stretch out those pauses because you enjoy them so much. Yes.
Starting point is 01:00:13 And so you might stretch it to 10 minutes or even an hour if you're really, you know, good at it. I learned this method from you some time ago and practiced it before there was an app just on the 3609s and really love it. I love it. It's so simple and profound. Yeah, it is. And there's another lovely element of the app is I asked the guy who created the app to show how many people are pausing with you right now, which I think is a lovely feeling because you put you know across different time zones people are pausing at three six nine and you can reset
Starting point is 01:00:52 you can set the app i think in the next version you'll be able to change it to whichever time zone you want so you can pause the same as the west coast of the usa or you can pause with West Coast of the USA or you can pause with people in Africa or wherever they are. And the plan is to create a map so you can see the wave of pausing around the world, of people pausing. So there's this also feeling of you're not alone right now in these three minutes. There are 54 people or 154,000. That's the goal really is the 10,000 people pausing right now for three minutes.
Starting point is 01:01:30 That'll have an impact. Absolutely. Yeah. Tell me about the ecosystem of the Jean Keys in the digital world. Well, interestingly, I have a really great little team of people at Jean Keys that we built organically and we love each other and know each other really deeply and we live the teachings.
Starting point is 01:01:49 And we have a lot of fun and we've built a business out of it and we're very, we're committed to certain principles like generosity and affordability and integrity and those things. So we keep it very affordable for people. And it's growing. And early on, we decided, let's try and do an online retreat. Right. So one year, we just sort of we're going to do an online, no one had done any online retreats. This was way before the pandemic and zoom and stuff. But we put together this idea and we created an online retreat which last three months, right? Following through some strands of your gene keys, right?
Starting point is 01:02:29 So each person would have their profile and they would go through the four gene keys that relate to your sense of purpose, to unlocking your purpose, right? So it's a contemplative program and it was four months. So we created like this one key a month, right? So you had a lot of time to really explore that key in your life and each key unlocked a different aspect of your genius or your purpose. And we had about 500 people in the first one was really, really great all around the world. And we did this online kind of rhythmic retreat that got people into the teachings, but also kind of stayed in their lives. So they actually
Starting point is 01:03:14 integrated it into their daily life instead of going off on retreat, and then coming back and having a big experience and then coming back and how do you integrate that? That's quite challenging. So we thought, let's do it in life. And it was hugely successful. And then over the years, we developed these online retreats and really got good at them. And then the pandemic hit
Starting point is 01:03:37 and we were completely set up. And we were just about to launch our biggest ever online retreat, which was about love and relationships. And we were experts in Zoom and all those things that people had, you know, the people, we were like, we were dialed. So we like, we hit the ground running in the pandemic year. We did this huge six month retreat on love and relationships with thousands of people who signed up. And it was really powerful, you know, having that global community and people could do it at their own level. So we designed these retreats so that it doesn't take over your life. It just zings along in the background
Starting point is 01:04:19 and you can dip in whenever you can. So it's like you come in depending on the level you can give. So maybe one month you had more time, so you gave more, but the next month you were really busy. So you had to go in a bit lighter. So we got really good at kind of essentializing truths and things so that people could- So could there be like assignments? Themes each week, each month.
Starting point is 01:04:44 So we draw out the essence of like, here's, you need to watch this. It's only 10 minutes or, you know, listen to this. So it'd be like a video course. Yeah. Yeah. It's something like that. But also with live, we call them community calls, you know, so in the second week of each month or as we had community calls where people could come together in different time zones
Starting point is 01:05:05 and meet and discuss, meet each other and discuss their keys, you know, and then we'd put them into little chat rooms of four or three or four people, you know, randomly. And people had incredible experiences meeting people, you know, and we start to see all kinds of patterns of like, wow, we were, we were, I was in a room with three people and they all had the same keys as me. It's like, if we didn't do that deliberately, or I was in the room with someone and I'd had a car crash and they'd also been in a car crash.
Starting point is 01:05:37 And so we had so many of these stories, I can't tell you how many synchronicities occurred in these retreats. People met and fell in love with each other and got married and people made friends for life and people went travelling to cross the world to someone they'd met in one of these retreats. So, they were really powerful and we still do them today. We're still doing them and we're trying to have it so that the time is not, you're not
Starting point is 01:06:04 spending too much time online. But essentially, I've created these online self study courses for the Jean Keys that you can do in your own pacing and your own rhythm. And it's not too much. And there's but I've done books as well. So I've written the hard copy books as well for each of the called sequences of the Jean Keys, understanding your Jean Keys and your profile. So it's really popular, you know, and people are reading those books and exploring their keys and loving it.
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Starting point is 01:07:28 and for a limited time chocolate medley, which you can enjoy hot. Formulated with the perfect balance of sodium, potassium, and magnesium to keep you hydrated and energized throughout the day. These minerals help conduct the electricity that powers your nervous system so you can perform at your very best. Element electrolytes are sugar-free, keto-friendly, and great tasting. Minerals are the stuff of life. So visit drinkLMNT.com slash Tedra. And stay salty with Element electrolyte lmnt Is there a way to go online and put in your
Starting point is 01:08:18 Birthdate and find out what your keys are yeah, yeah gene keys calm and then profile free profile And you put it in and then have a look. It gives you a bunch of words. It gives you some little paragraphs. And if they resonate, then you might want to take it a bit further and come and do one of the actual online courses or programs. Or get the book.
Starting point is 01:08:39 Or get the book, yeah. The books that take you through your profile, which are called the sequence books. They're also on Amazon. So it's all described online and there's a little course about to come out new to the Gene Keys that will show people much more clearly how they begin. But it's kind of wild. And I'm not a teacher in astrology.
Starting point is 01:09:01 I'm not an astrology guy either. But I'm really interested in that. Like, why? How? Because that puts a lot of people off. They go, well, I don't believe in astrology, it's nonsense. But I kind of have a lot of good skeptical friends around me, and I have great conversations. And one day it came to me, I was talking to this old friend of mine, I have great conversations. And one day it came to me, I was just talking to this old friend of mine, man in his 80s and he was like,
Starting point is 01:09:27 I don't believe in that nonsense. And we were talking and I said, well, you know how we see the universe has practical patterns in it, right? So we look in the same pattern that we see in a nebula, you can see when you cut open a cell or slice a grapefruit in half, you'll see self-similar replicating patterns
Starting point is 01:09:54 throughout the universe, the fractal patterns, right? And space, it has fractal patterns woven into it. And if space does, then time must, because time and space can't be separated. So time also is fractal. And what does that mean? It means that every moment contains a pattern, a signature that reflects some aspect of the whole. So when you look with the Jean Keys, you put these 64 fractal patterns, and then you put them into a time clock, it's like you're looking at a whole kind Keys, you put these 64 fractal patterns and then you put them into a time clock. It's like you're looking at a whole kind of, you're looking at a map of fractal time.
Starting point is 01:10:33 And this is how I understood, this is how I've understood what astrology, the core insight that led to astrology. How you read it is another whole thing. And whether you're any good at reading archetypes and the symbols. But in the Jean Keys it's 64 so you're looking at a 64-fold fractal map of time which you can put around the clock of the year. So it gives you these, it gives you touchstones to contemplate. But it doesn't tell you who you are, it just gives youstones to contemplate. But it doesn't tell you who you are.
Starting point is 01:11:05 It just gives you something to contemplate and they really tend to resonate with people. I don't know. That's what people are finding. Is everything based on patterns? Yeah, I would say so. But some of the patterns are wild. You know, they're not like, we think of patterns, we think of, you know, they're not like we think of patterns we think of you know Euclidean geometry whereas
Starting point is 01:11:29 Wild geometry is is kind of work. Yeah, like an oak tree growing that is it's not so easy to predict Which way, you know, so that's also a pattern But there's a perfection even in those wilder patterns. And chaos theory, right? Chaos theory is showing that even within chaos are underlying principles, you know, the branching into threes, you know, for example. When we do interior work, is it happening inside of our body? You got some good rascally questions.
Starting point is 01:12:07 Yeah, because the body is the kind of foundational hologram. So every cell of our body, you know, when we go inside, when we close our eyes and we go into our inner world, our body is the kind of baseline, it's the anchor. That's why the Buddhists teach breathing. The most ancient techniques are always around breathing or chanting because it just brings this rhythm deep into your body. Contemplation does the same. It brings you eventually to awareness of your breathing because it slows you down. And when you slow down,
Starting point is 01:12:53 you become aware without doing a technique of breathing. So the body is like that kind of anchor place. It's the field where transformation occurs. It might occur there last because it's physical. So you might experience an emotional transformation quicker,
Starting point is 01:13:17 but then how that gets communicated into the structure of the body because it's course of matter may take longer. So transforming the body in that way can take longer. Physical patterns. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Tell me about faith. Faith.
Starting point is 01:13:38 It's a beautiful word, faith. I don't use it in the Jinkies. It's not, you know, there are many words that appear in the Jean Keys. Like, faith doesn't appear, trust doesn't appear, hope doesn't appear. Yeah, faith, it depends on how you look at it. You've got to kind of extrapolate it away from religion maybe. And then it becomes very akin to trust. Because if you've really come into this place inside you,
Starting point is 01:14:11 where you've found that pause, that eternal pause, that's when you reach faith. There's no doubt in it, you know? And it's not belief either, to me, true faith. It's not belief, it's not something you've constructed. Like I've read the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita and that's given me faith. It would be something that came from a real lived experience of divinity inside. And that is what creates faith.
Starting point is 01:14:44 It's a direct knowing. It's a cellular certainty. That's what it is. It can never be taken away from you once you've felt it. It's very akin to grace. Grace is another word that's like… It's interesting the idea of the difference between knowing and belief. Yeah. And they are very different. Yeah. It's like when they asked Jung, you know, do you believe in God? And he said, I don't believe, I know.
Starting point is 01:15:18 That's a completely different answer. Yes. Yeah. Talk to me about the power of numbers. Ha ha ha. Numbers are great, aren't they? They are great. Yes. Yeah. Talk to me about the power of numbers. Numbers are great, aren't they? They are great. I got some mathematical friends and you know, one of the things that I realized in my mystical
Starting point is 01:15:37 state is that everything is made of numbers. Everything. And sometimes I remember walking through a forest and because when you look through the Jean Keys you're looking only through 64, right? But they're the numbers of eternity. So they go on and on forever like the Fibonacci sequence, like pure math, just goes on and on forever. Or Pi, on and on forever. So they are a way of kind of training the left brain to see infinity, to see and grasp the infinite. But they can only take us to the precipice, like in a way. They take us to logic, which is founded on numbers, and science, which is founded on numbers, essentially, can only take us to the very edge, the precipice,
Starting point is 01:16:32 the paradox, and then beyond there lie dragons, as the saying goes. So numbers are beautiful because the construct of our, what the ancients call the Maya, they call it the Maya, the illusion, the fabric of space-time, the kind of, the illusion's not quite the right word because it gives the wrong impression, but the fabric of the construct of our reality is made up of things that can be counted in numbers,
Starting point is 01:17:04 like the pixels that scientists are going in, small and small and small in numbers, and greater and greater and greater numbers. But eventually they get to the same place. They both get to paradox, they get to the infinite. And so there's a place where numbers point towards that, but then they stop, literally. And there's a lovely quote by poet
Starting point is 01:17:25 Norman Nicholson. He says, the infinite adjusts itself to our need. I love that. The infinite I've contemplated that a lot in my life, infinite adjusts itself to our need. And I think numbers kind of are wonderful because they're the foundational construct of our reality. But you can't kind of, there's a point where you can't really understand the mystery unless you go beyond the number. Yes. You know, it's like if you could see the fabric of reality, the pattern going on forever. The part that was close to you, you might be able to analyze and understand.
Starting point is 01:18:11 And it just repeats forever, but at some point you can no longer measure it. Exactly. I mean, I love scientists. I just find them sometimes hilarious. Like the other day I heard a scientist saying, you know, we think there may be more than one infinity. And it's like, so you have to listen to yourself sometimes, go, okay, it's just beautiful. You know, but there's a point
Starting point is 01:18:38 where you have to enter into the mystery. And it's quite hard for the left brain to let go and then move into the right brain territory, which is the whole, which is where you have to inhabit the mystery. And that's the only way you can ever know all of it. So a theory of everything, according to me, is not possible. Yes. No, I understand. What else do we know about the 64? Adds up to 10. Yeah, it's, well, it reduces down to these eights, 16s. It's eight by eight.
Starting point is 01:19:19 Yeah. It contains all these fractal kind of, this is what the Gene Keys are, it contains all these fractal kind of, this is what the gene keys are, it contains these fractal kind of universal lenses. So every key is like opens up, it's like an encyclopedia when you open it up. So contemplating on one key is like opening up an entire eye on an entire universe. So you can look through each one of these lenses.
Starting point is 01:19:48 Would you say each one of them, when you look through the lens, you're looking through it with a particular emotion? Is that what the words, what are the descriptive words for each of the keys? Well, they might be creative words, you know, or they might be practical words, like a gift, the six, the six gift
Starting point is 01:20:05 is diplomacy, right? So it's, that's a process word, right? And then, but it's also creative and because you, you're constantly having to learn diplomacy in human relationships. And that key is all about human relationships, it's transcendence is the word peace. So how do you find peace? You find it through learning the art of diplomacy until you've arrived at peace and then you no longer need the diplomacy because it's a part of who you are. And diplomacy doesn't just mean being kind of nice and it's about really, really listening and empathizing with all of life. And that's what peace is. So each
Starting point is 01:20:46 key can have an emotional component, it can have a process component, it has a transformation woven through it. So every one of the 64 is a pathway to transformation. So you can actually just take one at random. Many people use my book like that. They just use the book and nothing else. And they just open it and they read it. They read one and that becomes the thing they contemplate. I'm going to pick one at random now. Cool. And I want you to tell me about where it comes. Okay. 29th key, leaping into the void. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:21:26 So the shadow of this key is what lovely word, it's not lovely, but it's half-heartedness, right? And the gift is called commitment and the city is called devotion. I love this one. And the original each name for it is the abysmal, you know, which is a great word. I love the poetic word, the abysmal, the abyss, leaping into the void. And so if you're going to leap into the void, you can't do it half-heartedly, right? And so this key is all about saying yes, and how we don't say yes fully.
Starting point is 01:22:03 So think about relationships. Like, you know, I discovered this through default in my own way. I discovered that there was a part of me as a man that always held a bit of myself back in relationships. Like I was, and one of my teachers said to me, you know, he was a relationship counselor teacher. And he said, in a relationship, 99% commitment
Starting point is 01:22:29 is the same as 1% commitment. That really blew me away. He said, because you're either committed or you're not. If you're holding something back, you're not fully in it, right? If you're, well, I might meet someone better, you know, there's a little part of me that's like, yeah. So I had to learn that through, you know, myself and my relationships. And when I finally saw that, that I wasn't fully in it, I finally realized
Starting point is 01:22:57 that was the moment I fully committed. You can't make that decision. It just happens. And it's not just in relationships. It's in everything. It is in everything. It's in creativity. It's in everything. Everything you do. Yes. If you do something half-heartedly, it's bound to fail. Yes. If you know what I mean. Or not be good. Either way. It's just not going to lead to fulfillment. Yes. Okay. So, but also, it can teach you, it has value value like every shadow has value, right? So because it's going to teach you where you're not committed. If there's something you're doing in your life, and you're doing it half heartedly, really look at that thing and contemplate it
Starting point is 01:23:37 and realize that through that area of your life, energy is leaking. And that leak is causing you pain. It's causing your biology pain. It might be causing problems in your biology. It will be. Because everything's connected, like we said, about the body. So half-heartedness is a great thing to find in yourself. If there's anything you're doing half-heartedly, realize it and then... You can recalibrate. You can recalibrate and either not do it or do it. Exactly. So commitment is about where you then give yourself 100% and commitment leads to devotion. It is the process of transforming half-heartedness. That's what it is. The gift is the process of transforming the shadow. It arrives at the city, right?
Starting point is 01:24:30 So it arrives at the do something with utter devotion. It's like you as an artist. You see so many artists and music and that devotion is like it's the only thing they want to do. It's the only thing they they can think of. That is when things just really kind of hum because you're doing your life's work. You're doing something you're designed to do because every cell of your body is behind it. That's devotion. So it's a beautiful key that teaches us about half-heartedness and lack of commitment and commitment and then full devotion. So other things here listed in the 29th key are the programming partner, which is the 30th gene key. What is a programming partner?
Starting point is 01:25:15 Yeah, so when you put the keys, 64 keys in a shape around the wheel, this is kind of a bit nerdy for each gene people. But it's fun as well. What you see is that opposite one key is it's, you know, in the wheel, if you put them in a 64 pattern, is it's exact opposite hexagram. Right. So if it's Yin Yang, Yin Yang, Yin Yang, then this one is Yang Yin, Yang Yin, Yang Yin opposite. So I call those the programming partners. And they cut so every key is part of a binary in a way. So whether you know, whether you're working with a profile or you're not, it's really good to understand the other side. And because these, they're archetypes, right? And they balance each other, imagine they imbalance or balance each other. So they create biofeedback loops.
Starting point is 01:26:05 So at the shadow level, they create negative biofeedback loops. So the shadow of 30 is desire, right? It's the force of desire. So you have desire and half-heartedness. And there's a kind of dance between those two. So there's nothing wrong with desire, there's nothing wrong with half-heartedness. It's just a starting point. So we get to learn about our desire and lack of, you know, through half-heartedness. And by following our desire, but not fully,
Starting point is 01:26:40 we learn all these different things. And then desire gets transformed into lightness. That's when we're able to, we're not sucked in by our desires, we don't become our desires, we have a little bit of pause around them so that we can follow them or not follow them. And then we have clarity.
Starting point is 01:26:58 So we can choose which desire to follow, which design maybe to just kind of hold. Cause if we follow every desire in our life, it can lead to chaos, right? So it's about how we deal and handle with the energy of desire. So those two keys, especially at the higher level, you get to see devotion and rapture. You know, rapture is that state of where desire has actually been
Starting point is 01:27:30 transformed into this kind of beautiful state of bliss. Where it doesn't matter if you follow your desire or if you don't follow your desire, you're in bliss. So it doesn't matter. So you can choose any route. But you had to get there through a process of transformation. And part of that is going on the journey of lightness and commitment and learning. So there's a whole, you know, at the shadow level, there's a biofeedback loop that keeps you in the victim place, where you're just a victim of your desire cycles and you're following one after another and
Starting point is 01:28:10 then it leads you to kind of realizing you're not fully committed. You just followed your desire into that relationship or that job or whatever it was. And so you either stay in those cycles, which creates misery misery or you begin to work with them and break out of them. And then you find the beauty of committed practices and relationships and activities. And then you feel lighter inside yourself, you know, and you have this wonderful dance. And then finally you get to this heightened state of transcendence. And those heightened states I describe in the book, but they're
Starting point is 01:28:46 in a way our future consciousness, I would say, as a species. Because we haven't, most people may have tapped them occasionally, or maybe in a plant medicine journey, or in some extreme event, or if you're lucky, like me, you have one of those mystic experiences or a flash and then you touch into those higher states or perhaps you're with a great teacher and you feel it in their presence. Rapture is not something that very many people know about in the modern world, but it exists as one of our kind of higher codings, you know, and so the whole nature of Jinkies is showing us what's hidden in our DNA, what's latent, that there's a future
Starting point is 01:29:32 evolution waiting for us, you know, that we haven't yet untapped, we haven't tapped it yet. Also in the 29th is Kodon Ring, the Ring of Union, four, seven, 29 and 59. What is that? This is definitely for the nerds, jinky nerds. Well, there's patterns within patterns and some of them I haven't taught yet. This is one of the ones I've not taught yet. I've not shared it. I've contemplated it myself.
Starting point is 01:30:00 But if you look through the keys, they naturally form clusters that relate to the 21 of them, 22, 22, 21. It depends on how you look at it. And they form families and they relate to kind of almost genetic families and they may relate to our amino acids. Because there's 21 or 22 of those. And so it's a kind of pattern that haven't fully unlocked yet but that I'm contemplating and my understanding of it is it's what it shows us is it shows us the machinery of karma. So it shows us how we are moved in groups, are moved in groups, how we as a species are evolving in genetic groupings through races and gene pools and how the machinery that the ancients call karma is underneath all of
Starting point is 01:30:57 that. So there's this incredible web under the surface of life, the dharma, that everyone on the surface that we call it the Dharma, which is our destiny. But underneath, you know that old wonderful old woodcut with the man peering behind the curtain of the global, and he's looking behind and there's all this machinery behind. It's like a medieval woodcut. It's quite famous.
Starting point is 01:31:21 I can't remember who it was by. But anyway, under the surface is all this machinery. And the code on rings are kind of, they are how we are moved as whole groupings. So, so that what they do is they show us a level of orchestration. Yes. That is underneath normal. You know, if you if you drop into a heightened state, you see that, you know that it's part of the faith or the trust that like everything's working perfectly according to how it's even terrible things are part of the underlying tapestry that's being woven by human consciousness. Shadow is part of it, so the Kodon rings show us more collective fields and wound patterns.
Starting point is 01:32:05 I love that you've included them, even though, as you've said, you're still contemplating them. You're not all the way there yet. But you see the architecture. You recognize that it's there. And by including it in the book, it invites others to participate in that unfolding. Yeah. It's beautiful. Exactly. And people always ask me about them. when you're going to do that? When you're going to do that? For years, they've been asking, when you're going to do that? I said, like, it feels like. Yeah, it happens when it happens.
Starting point is 01:32:30 It's a big piece, you know? It feels like I'm going to have to get there somehow. Yeah. And the sacral plexus. The physiology, yeah. Physiology. Physiology. I put these in.
Starting point is 01:32:42 These were a little bit from the human design kind of revelation. And again, I put them in so that people could, you know, so that the gene keys had a relationship in the body, in the physiology in the body. And I don't really understand them either, but they kind of, they are further. But those relationships are there. They're further contemplations, I think maybe in the future people will, you know, body workers and people will be able to kind of work with these keys in unique ways, you know.
Starting point is 01:33:11 So I put them in there. And then there's an amino acid. Yeah, and there's amino acid. So people like Zach Bush, for example, who I've been recently doing some work with, said, you know, he'd love to create some of the amino acid profiles so that we could try them out on people with their gene keys and see what kind of effects it has.
Starting point is 01:33:31 So that was interesting. Again, I put them in there so that those conversations would happen long after I'm gone. Yeah. How do you think contemplation works? It's a spontaneous process. We create the space, we create the field, we create the pause. And I describe in the book here three stages that I noticed. And I love threes.
Starting point is 01:33:56 So everything in my work is about threes. And the first is pausing, which I've discussed already, like you create the space and then your contemplation inhabits that space in some way, depends on what you're doing, you know, or not doing. And then the second stage, which is the transformational stage is called pivoting. Pivoting. And pivoting is when a breakthrough happens. So something occurs in a pause where you So something occurs in a pause
Starting point is 01:34:26 where you see something different in a new way or you see a pattern of yours in that pause. So you kind of break the momentum of a difficult pattern in your life or a shadow pattern or a victim pattern because you pause. It's like you take a deep breath and you realize you haven't been breathing until you take that deep breath and that breath is the pause that then changes the pattern and then you start breathing more deeply after that. And the same in our everyday life,
Starting point is 01:35:01 you create the pauses and in some of those pauses, a pivotal experience occurs, a breakthrough occurs. It's spontaneous, it can't be predicted. You have to create the pauses, otherwise the pivots don't happen. You may have a thousand pauses and only one pivot, and you can't predict when it'll happen.
Starting point is 01:35:22 But when it happens, you really know it. So something occurs inside you. It can be subtle and creep up on you and then suddenly you realize it. Or because it's crept into all those pauses. Or it's an instant epiphany and you find yourself in tears or laughing or having a panic attack or something that pushes you out of a state into another
Starting point is 01:35:48 state. When I say panic attack, it doesn't mean like contemplation causes panic attacks, but what it might do is push something out so that you can see it more clearly. And if you create the space of the pause, it's the only safe place is space, is where you don't have an expectation of yourself or anything. You can just allow anything to occur in those pauses. That's the beauty of the contemplative state, is anything can emerge and it wants to come up from the unconscious, things want to come up, things that we've
Starting point is 01:36:31 repressed, perhaps traumas, perhaps from childhood, perhaps from past lives, if you go into those kind of things. And they want to kind of come out because they're waiting to be transformed. So the pivot is where those breakthroughs occur. And then the third phase, I call merging, this is a beautiful phase, and it's less defined, and it comes about as we have more of those pivots. So if you have two or three pivoting experiences in a year, then your experience a more merged field. So the merging is is what happens You can know like that the pattern has been burnt from our DNA
Starting point is 01:37:11 It's literally it's a pattern has been burnt white hot out of our DNA like a shadow pattern a victim pattern Has has gone and it will never return like an addiction for example like people have you know a lot of have, you know, a lot of, we all have a lot of addictive tendencies. So like a pivotal, if you create those pauses around your addiction, you might carry on with your addiction. But slowly, slowly, one of those pivotal experiences is going to occur and you're going to, you're going to, one day you're going to say, I'm going to, I'm stopping that. And or I'm going to find help, or I'm going to occur and you're going to one day you're going to say, I'm going to I'm stopping that and or I'm going to find help or I'm going to ask for help. That can be a pivotal experience. And then the moment that happens, you reset the track
Starting point is 01:37:56 and then you follow that pivot where it leads. It eventually leads to emerging experience where it's gone. And you know, the addiction has been transferred to a higher level. To, you know, it's like, I think with addiction is you don't really get rid of it, you transfer it to a higher level. It's the same with these shadows. You don't really get rid of them, you transfer them to higher frequencies.
Starting point is 01:38:19 They're a higher frequency functioning of our DNA. So we can't pull them out. We have to burn them. And then they be like Phoenix is they become something higher. If that makes sense. Yes. So the merging is a beautiful, subtle experience where we gradually return to our source, you know, to the cosmic consciousness. So contemplation done over a lifetime starts to kind of give you a merged experience with existence. You know, like that experience I had at the beginning where I was merged with the, you know, some of us have had those
Starting point is 01:38:56 experiences. But contemplation lowers us into that state very gently. It's a very, very gentle practice. That's why I love it. It's not intense. I mean, it can be intense. The pivoting experiences can be very intense, but in itself it's very subtle. It's very background, but creating those pauses actually is all you have to do. It's all you have to know. But I lay out in the book those three phases. I call them also insight, breakthrough, epiphany. Those are the three kind of signposts. Like an insight is something that occurs through the mind, like that mind of light. Suddenly you understand something mentally that you didn't.
Starting point is 01:39:38 That's the thing about epiphany is I'm only coming to realize this now listening to you speak that an epiphany is not really a discovery It's a recognition of something that is yeah, it's just being able to see something that is that you couldn't see before yeah Exactly a breakthrough is a I see it as an emotional Kind of realm where something emotionally has to move through and then the epiphany realm where something emotionally has to move through. And then the epiphany, which is a deeper, it connects more to the merging, is a physical. It's when something is a pattern is physically transformed. You remember I said earlier that the physical body takes the longest. The merging takes the longest because this is the coarsest matter.
Starting point is 01:40:25 So for patterns to actually change at a fundamental physical level, it's like we have to have an epiphany. And epiphany makes it sound like it's something mental, but it's not. It'll be a physical experience. You may sweat. You may go through a diet change. You may go through, you know, something occurs in your body, a response where you have to shake off the pattern.
Starting point is 01:40:52 And sometimes it could be intense tears. I've seen epiphanies in people sometimes. I've, you know, I've seen a woman break down in one of my contemplative courses and just see her racked by kind of, you know, shaking. That sometimes it's not always like that. It can be very subtle, but sometimes it is very physical. Often the most common thing is tears. And they can be tears of joy or they can be tears of grief.
Starting point is 01:41:24 But tears almost always come within epiphany. Where do you see the line between science and spirituality? I think it's coming closer, particularly as I said earlier, like when scientists begin to kind of reach the limits of paradox to kind of reach the limits of paradox and realize that there's a place where these two things kind of kiss each other. I wonder sometimes whether science will kind of surrender
Starting point is 01:41:58 at a certain stage and maybe thousands of years from now where we've got everything we want. You know, we've got all we need in terms of There's a part of our brain that the left brain that has to know how everything works But I wonder whether at some point, you know, even even an evolved scientist might come There are many of them, right? And they come to that place where often in the later life where they start to kind of come to that place where often in their later life, where they start to kind of drop more into that imagination, you know, where they go into like the mystic,
Starting point is 01:42:31 because they realize they're not gonna get there with the logical bits and pieces mind. But I think also there's a place where the mystical side, you know, as it incorporates more, it can't push away the scientific. As it incorporates more of that, which it feels like is happening more,
Starting point is 01:42:52 the Jinkies is an attempt, I guess it's my attempt to bring those two together, but I'm not a scientist. So through the Jinkies, you get a poet mystics view through DNA. Yes. You know, it's a poet's view through DNA. But why not? Is that DNA is a beautiful scientific thing? Like, let's have musicians do that. Let's
Starting point is 01:43:13 have poets do that. Let's have all these different people come together with different skills and, you know, look through the same lenses. That is seems to be where I hope things are going. Because I think you only when you look through multiple lenses rather than people who are too specialized do you see the truth? You begin to grasp it. Would you agree with that? Yes, absolutely. How much of your worldview comes from something learned versus something intuited. Yeah, it's mostly intuited. The learned stuff is just the kind of storyline, the narrative.
Starting point is 01:43:55 The deeper stuff is intuited. In my morning contemplation, as you know, I love tea, and I sit with my little tea in the morning, my little Chinese teas, and I contemplate for like an hour. And in those morning contemplations, usually before dawn, you know, in the gloom as the light's coming, my intuition is just, is at its peak, you know, my, what the ancients call the ye, the wisdom mind. There's always like 10 minutes of throwing stuff out, you know, of just clutter. You wake up and there's clutter. And so I just let the clutter leave and then I kind of start entering into, and the tea helps actually,
Starting point is 01:44:35 because it helps kind of propel you a little bit quicker. And then you go into this wisdom mind. And I just wait sometimes in that state. And I get profound intuitions about stuff. Sometimes it's universal, sometimes it's quite emotional, but just deep things that I kind of remember, or revelations. And sometimes I just, I often just let them go. I just let them pass through. I say, Do you ever take notes? Sometimes. I mean, I'm quite playful now because it's like a state I can enter quite easily. So I sometimes just go, I think I just, I sometimes think, oh, there's a whole book in that. You know,
Starting point is 01:45:15 I have a big revelation. I'm like, oh my God, I need to capture that. But then there's a part of me that just goes, nah, someone else will get it. And occasionally I do. Occasionally I go, I'm definitely going to make a podcast around that because I just can't resist. But yeah, deep things like recently I was thinking about the sun and stars and my intuition because there's this question in science of like, where do they get their fuel from? And my intuition, because there's this question in science of like, where do they get their fuel from? And my intuition is that they draw their fuel from the void around them. That's my intuition. Everything that is burning or on fire is drawing its energy from whatever you call it dark
Starting point is 01:46:02 and a dark matter. It's drawing it from the void around it. Because that's how it is for me. When I'm in this deep state, like the wisdom comes from nothing. It just comes out of nowhere and then it surges up and I haven't consciously done anything. And I think that I see that how the universe works is that one pole draws from the opposite. So I mean, I think that a really good scientist follows their intuition. They have intuitions like that.
Starting point is 01:46:35 And in the Jinkies book, I put a rather rascally idea at some point. I said, you know, the new science may be not founded on doubt. It may be founded on certainty. So doubt is when you don't know how something, you know, and you build up a storyline and you check this and try that and it's like a long ladder to get to like understanding and then maybe truth. But the other way is like you have a cellular certainty. And then you set out to prove it. Because I know this is correct. So maybe you could save quite a lot of time with that approach. So I don't know. I mean, there must be scientists that do that. They follow their hunches.
Starting point is 01:47:17 I'm sure there are. And just think, I feel this to be true. I'm going to... I'm sure everything starts with an idea. Yeah, and then you work from there. Yeah When did your relationship to the tea ceremony first begin? One of the guys I work with Elijah his name is he Is a kind of tea monk and so he learned from his teacher who's a great guy called Poe who lives in Portland and Poe who lives in Portland.
Starting point is 01:47:45 And Poe's studied tea for like 30 years. But as this real character, he's a Jewish guy from New Jersey, but with a real kind of great sense of humor. But he's absorbed in all the different tea traditions and I guess built up a kind of reservoir of knowledge and he's quite respected in the tea world as well. But he's a kind of maverick tea master so he doesn't follow any of the
Starting point is 01:48:11 rules of the traditional schools and he's just, he basically, he serves love from love but that's it, it's all about and he's just himself, and he doesn't bother about all the perfect kind of ways of pouring, and then he's learned all that and forgotten it all. So I'm kind of of his lineage in a way where we don't really, we don't, it's very, very informal. So you know. How much do we know about the formalty ceremonies
Starting point is 01:48:44 from history? Quite a lot, not so much, but well the Chinese have had less of a ceremony than the Japanese. The Japanese like took it and then it went through Zen. And so because it got kind of put through the lens of Zen everything became deeply structured and you know aiming at perfection and deeply structured and, you know, aiming at perfection and exquisite-ness. Whereas the Chinese way of tea is a little more informal, it was more about gathering together, chatting, doing business deals, trading, sharing, laughing, and it's more familial in that way. And so I think our tradition is more in that vein. You know, it's more about just drinking really delicious teas
Starting point is 01:49:31 and sitting in the field of their energetics together and seeing what they do to a conversation like a tea like this that we're having quite a rare tea. This is a 90 year old tea. So has serious age. And it's an Oolong, which you wouldn't normally age, but some of these teas are just incredible. How long does it steep for?
Starting point is 01:49:58 These ones, they're different depending on the tea. Oolongs, you don't wanna do too long. How long is the temperature of the water? And the temperature for an Oolongs you don't want to do too long. How important is the temperature of the water? And the temperature for an oolong is cooler than the temperature for a puer, a puer teaser, more fermented, darker. I would drink them more in the mornings. Some people have them in the evenings, but they're strong.
Starting point is 01:50:18 They're kind of a little bit over towards coffee, but they're not. They're nothing like coffee, but they have an impact. They're black and dark and forest floor notes and mushroomy, some of them. I'm very grounding, whereas Oolongs are more heart teas. I love the part of the sort of ceremony of it. It's just looking at the the shapes and the swirls and the steam and is that beautiful? Beautiful, so there's a swirling... These are the oils in the tea and a very good quality tea. The oils get released and they form these beautiful, almost universal...
Starting point is 01:51:02 Like whirlpools. Yeah. Very beautiful. And so drinking tea in a beautiful location at the right time of day with great company becomes a sort of a contemplative practice in its own right. So sometimes you would serve tea in silence and other times you might put music on,
Starting point is 01:51:26 you might use a little bit of incense, you might just chat, you know, and have a dialogue. It's basically just tea. So, you know, what I learned from Poe is, just serve it with love, and drink it with love, and let the tea do the rest. So yeah,
Starting point is 01:51:50 enjoy your 90 year old Oolong and see. Shall we begin? Yeah. Without any formality. Cheers. There's a lot of people who should be here. And really get a good smell of it as well. Woody. Mm-hmm. But all kinds of layers and notes in there from the age. And the other thing about these teas is as you drink them,
Starting point is 01:52:22 as you keep steeping them, they change. You know, so the initial first sips, the first pot that you drink, some people throw it away actually, because it's like you're flushing the age off the tea and then you're, and then you start fresh. Actually, I quite like drinking the first one because it's sort of, even though it has a bit of,
Starting point is 01:52:42 might have a bit of dust on it, it's just part of the experience. And so their tradition is that you kind of drink, I think we did this before, you drink up the chakras with each pot and so, you know, there's this beautiful Taoist or Zen Chinese writings by tea masters talking about the seven layers of tea and the seven pots. So yeah, it's a beautiful metaphor really. But yeah, the tea develops as you drink it. And oolongs you tend to sip because they're heart based tea, they're lighter in color, they're lighter, but they're quite elevating because this has so much age
Starting point is 01:53:29 on it, it's also, I think it has wisdom in it. Where do you find it, un-main-dialed tea? It's not easy. You have to be, you enter into the tea world, the wild tea world, not just, you know, shops and online places. You can't get this kind of tea. It's like a black market of sorts.
Starting point is 01:53:49 It's a club, yeah. And once you know people, they will introduce you to people. And then there are collectors, just like there are collectors of wine. And you would pay a lot of money for a tea like this, especially when you know it's provenance, you know. And there's a lot of fakes out there, of course, you know,
Starting point is 01:54:04 like people going, yeah, this is a 30 year old tea and it's just a fake. I happen to know these are from a man called Hang Jia who has very good provenance, provenance. He's from Taiwan, tea master. And we know if the tea is from Taiwan or... This is from Taiwan. It's an Oolong from Taiwan. But it's not often you're drinking along of this age.
Starting point is 01:54:28 It's extraordinary. Can you tell the difference from the taste of the teas, where they're from, to the different provinces have tastes? Yeah. I mean, it's like wine. There's so many different types. And it's all one tea, though.
Starting point is 01:54:43 It's all one plant. The tea though. It's all one Same leaf the same leaf. Yeah But the conditions of the different places change it exactly and how they handled how it's been processed How it's been cared for how it's been stored where it's been stored You know among in the tea world people will taste at tea and they can tell you instant a a good tea person will tell you instantly if it's been stored in Hong Kong, for example, because people would deliberately store some teas in Hong Kong where it's damp and hot and the damp kind of increases the fermentation a little bit and it gives it a certain flavor, certain, you know, which is very different from if it's been stored in mainland China somewhere or you know in that mountains or
Starting point is 01:55:29 And a lot of teas are stored in Hong Kong. And what's the process from the time that the leaves are picked? It depends again on the tea and I'm not an expert in this and it depends on what kind of tea Typically is it sun dried? Some of them will put it in the sun they'll give it a little heat to oxidize the leaves to stop it from rusting to go oxidizing so they just sort of stops it so they give it they burnish it in a pan and then they'll start fermenting it in different ways depends on who who long is treated very differently from the Puerres, which are much more processed
Starting point is 01:56:09 in terms of fermentation. They're kind of like a pile of compost, they're turned. Other teas are laid out under the stars deliberately to ingest certain energies or the moon, all kinds of ways of doing it. And of course then there's people that really take care of the land and it the moon, all kinds of ways of doing it. And of course then there's people that really take care of the land and it's organic. And a lot of these teas, these old ones are wild teas, you know, so they're from tea trees in the mountains that have grown wild. And
Starting point is 01:56:40 the Aboriginal people go out with the baskets on their backs and they find these old trees and then they pick the leaves, they climb them and they put the leaves in their basket and they bring them back. And so it's from a pure permaculture environment, it's from a wild environment with monkeys and things, and you know, the biodiversity, as opposed to most of the tea that's drunk around the world, which is plantation, monocrop, monoculture. So there's very different kinds of teas these if you can find them. So you kind of need to be in the cognizantie of the tea world to find these really good
Starting point is 01:57:15 teas. So each time you refill the pot and we do seven? Well, you can do as many as you want depending on the tea. But yeah, this will definitely go seven brews. And you'll see it'll change its color, its depth, its intensity. The second one usually gives you a much stronger kind of because the tea has woken up, the tea was asleep, it was dormant. 90 years dormant lying there waiting for this moment. Poe would say it really has waited for this moment, it's now in full service to you, It's fulfilling its Dharma Which I love I love the way of a sort of magical way of looking at it. So the second one usually gives you a kind of
Starting point is 01:58:12 A louder announcing of its true nature And you do this for yourself every morning? Yeah, it's a private practice and I love I mean I love sharing it. I have this kind of metaphor that I practice and I love sharing it. I have this kind of metaphor that I tell people about that I always have two cups and I think it's a good sign for just, it's a good allegory of life always take two cups with you because you never know who will show up. So even if I'm sitting in the wild somewhere on my own with a tea, I'll have two cups just in case a stranger walks by and says what are you doing? Always an open invitation. Yeah. So the second round doesn't have the same experience on top of the tea. It might do if you look at it but there probably will be oils continue to come
Starting point is 01:58:59 out if you get the light right on it. They are still coming out. Yeah, I can see them in my cup. It's much less pronounced than the first round. Uh-huh. Yeah, so see how it tastes. Stronger aroma. And so really, you know, for me, that the teaching of tea is all about its energetics. This is why even if you have a fake tea, if you're really listening to the energetics,
Starting point is 01:59:35 it might still be a powerful tea. It depends on what it does inside you. And so you kind of, one of the beauties of tea is drinking tea is that you are invited to go beyond taste. You know, so the taste is a good indicator and the smell, but you're asked to really go deeper and do what is this tea doing inside you. So the drinker is participating in with the tea. Exactly. And I think that's what makes it a beautiful sense of communion and sometimes when I'm sitting with friends
Starting point is 02:00:08 and we're drinking tea and we'll say, so what do you feel? And everyone will describe a different feeling. Usually in the body, but I feel it here or I feel an opening here or, and sometimes you can close your eyes and see if you, it's a plant see if you you know it's a plant medicine after all it's a it's a plant medicine that you can ingest daily but
Starting point is 02:00:31 different from unlike kind of most plant medicines it's it's very integrating into your everyday life so you can drink it often. I tend to slurp it. Yeah, slurping is right. I like the ear with it. The Chinese love slurping. But still, it's interesting to drink a tea that's that old, older than either of us. Yeah. You know, something alive in our systems of that age.
Starting point is 02:01:07 Very good for the microbiome as well. Do you feel anything? I feel it in my upper chest. Me too. Like a vibration, or a flattering. Do you find your relationship to drinking tea changes over time? I think it, like anything, it's like any meditation practice or something, it just gets deeper. You find layers and refinements, especially as you drink more tea and wider varieties.
Starting point is 02:01:47 Because a tea enthusiast like me, I'll drink many different teas. I'm always interested. It's like looking for the grail. You're looking for... But is the goal looking for the one you most love or is it the variety that's interesting? It's the variety that's interesting? It's the variety that's interesting. And some, and you know, like for instance, I have a tea that I found online in a Chinese website. It was from 1968.
Starting point is 02:02:13 And it was a block that was made in the Cultural Revolution when the individualizing of tea was taken away from the Chinese and it was all just suddenly, there were rules of this is how you make tea. And suddenly there was this imposition of control over the tea as it was over the people. And so that tea, I wondered about that tea and I thought, wow, I bet that tea tastes disgusting
Starting point is 02:02:40 because it's just been, it's a mono tea. It's like it's not, it's not, no one has put their own flavor or stamp on it, it's all been homogenised. But it was the only thing that the people were drinking, so they must have actually leaned on it heavily during difficult times, when they were out in the fields, they all drank this tea. So I thought that tea's going to really put me in touch with the kind of wounding of those times, the loss of freedom, but also it's going to put me in touch with like ordinary people who just were suffering in the fields and they drank this tea together and they probably drew enjoyment from it. So when I tasted it and it was pretty inharmonious, you know. But I also got a lot of love out of it.
Starting point is 02:03:27 So even though like technically or structurally it's not a well-made tea as you'd expect because it's homogenised, there was a lot of love in it. And it's almost like it contained the people, people's hearts. Probably one of the few breaks they had, you know, during difficult times. So yeah, tea, it's about the diversity. And sometimes I will drink teas and I think, oh, that's really not nice.
Starting point is 02:03:55 And I usually won't go on drinking it because I just think life's too short to drink tea that actually really is revolting. And I'll just throw it and I'll just try another tea. And sometimes there are mornings like that. I've just got this is one of those mornings where tea is just not working for me. If you find one that you like is it usually in supply where you can keep getting it or not necessarily?
Starting point is 02:04:15 Not necessarily and that's the beauty of it. Like some of the very best teas I'll say to my teacher Po, you got any more of this? And he'll say, that's it. You know, this is the last kilo and we'll like drink it together. And it's just like that's it. And it's a fabulous tea and that's it. It's gone. Yeah. It's the impermanence. Yeah. Yeah. Which I love about tea. And I mean, just recently I discovered a tea that by fortune, you know, there was one of the most delicious teas I ever drank and I found that there was quite a fairly large amount of it available and so I invested in some, but that doesn't often happen,
Starting point is 02:04:56 that you can actually get for a decent amount because like fine wine, some of the prices in China are like off the charts, tens of thousands of dollars for a brick of tea because of the collectors in China. But you know at the same time what Poe my teacher will say is you know a Lipton's tea bag or a Tetley tea bag that's just bog standard everyday tea. You can get just as much love out of it. It's full spectrum.
Starting point is 02:05:28 It's as much about the ritual as it is the leaf. It's about, yeah, ultimately, it's about the love you put in and the sharing, the sense of communion. But there is a, you know, there is also, there's an aesthetic to the process. So I think, you know, people that become attuned to very fine wines because they developed their palette and their olfactory capacities to a fine degree and they refined it. That's,
Starting point is 02:06:00 it's the same with tea, if you you really are listening deeply you can take such joy from exploring the world of tea and and then you collect like you know I have you know a library of teas that I've collected and and then you intuitively each morning or whoever's there you choose the tea that suits the occasion. You know, I had, I'm with me here today and he had five teas, but I knew that we'd be drinking this one. It was like, it stood up in front of me and went, you need to drink me with Rick.
Starting point is 02:06:37 It may not be the best one, but it was just the right one. Yes. You know. And certainly the oldest. No, it's interesting how that, how the wisdom of the tea, its inherent in it, it tells you. Exactly. That's exactly it.
Starting point is 02:06:55 It's the teacher. It's a plant. You know, like if you go into the world of plant medicine, people, if you happen to take ayahuasca or try those kind of things, you know, the indigenous people will call it, this is grandmother or grandfather if it's one of the others, and it has a wisdom of its own, it has a spirit actually, and tea has a spirit, all tea has that spirit in it, and I think in in case of tea it's deep compassion. I would say that's its flavour. It's here to serve.
Starting point is 02:07:32 And all over the world, you know, it's the second most widely drunk liquid after water. So all over the world people pause and drink tea. It's different from coffee which is another world but tea is it's really about pausing it's really about sitting together and yeah. Did you grow up with tea in England as well? Not that afternoon tea. Yeah sure yeah tea time yeah which is always a very enjoyable time of day because you sat down with your parents. Well, I did when they were there. That was the only time.
Starting point is 02:08:10 I mean, maybe at breakfast occasionally, but that would be a time my father would be. He loved his tea. So he would come and sit down, you'd have your tea and your biscuit. And was it at four in the afternoon? Yeah, something like that, up at four. Yeah. Is this the third? Third, yeah. I mean, I consider myself a novice with tea really compared to others I know. I've been recently reading about this guy called Baisao, who was a Zen tea master in Kyoto in the 18th century.
Starting point is 02:08:47 And it's just a beautiful book that was written about him and his life. And he left fragments of poetry that he wrote. And he went through the Zen trainings in his youth and excelled to quite high level and then packed it all in and went and became a tea seller, right, which wasn't done, but he excelled in serving tea and he would wander around the kind of valleys of Kyoto and the forests and he would serve up tea near the temples to pass us by and they'd come and slowly slowly he became infamous
Starting point is 02:09:29 because people would go and have tea with him and they would have profound experiences because of his presence and the way that he handled the tea and the way he held presence and served them. So a lot of his and the way he held presence and served them. So a lot of his tealaw that has Zen all the way through it is about, I wish I had some of his things to read here but it's about literally what I said about my teacher Poe, it's love in a teacup. He put love in a cup.
Starting point is 02:10:00 He put truth in a cup by self because of how he served it. You know, he would say that people who were exhausted by their lives would come and sit and have tea with him and feel completely reinvigorated at every level of their being and leave, you know, kind of reborn. And so he became this old mendicant kind of guy and he started a whole tradition of the people started to copy him and then there were like people you know that left the temples and became you know beggar booksellers and
Starting point is 02:10:37 begger all kinds of you know it became a whole tradition that he spawned of the kind of wandering, beggar salesman. Yeah, I kind of like that idea. It's definitely changing. How'd you find that one? I don't have the language to explain it. I feel like language often is, there's not enough of it, with the emotions and the feelings
Starting point is 02:11:04 and the flavors that come up. And I don't feel that one in the chest in the same way, but I'm also thinking about it being the third cup and focusing on the lower, like, solar plexus, what do you say? Yeah, it's more, for me I feel it more, almost like it's left my body a bit. It's sort of, I don't know, it's out here a bit more. But yeah, if I were to give it a place, it's dropped down.
Starting point is 02:11:39 I actually can hear it in my voice, which I think is dropped down and pitch a little bit. What are the other practices that you've found that either pull you deeper into yourself or push you further out of yourself? There are, you know, I use all kinds of occasions and things. You know, I find walking an amazing contemplative thing to do. I'm more of a walker than I am a sitter, I would say. There's a lovely quote from Saint Augustine's Solvitor Ambulando. Do you ever heard that? By walking it is solved. Beautiful.
Starting point is 02:12:28 Yeah. So walking is one of my favorite things. I also run a little bit, which I also find very contemplative. But I'm a non-competitive runner. As in, I don't run for health. I run because I like the space and I like the rhythm. I don't want to run with anyone. People often ask me, you want to come for a run with me? Can I come with you? I don't want, I want to be alone. I want to just be in the rhythm of the run and I don't run particularly fast. I kind of roll along a bit and through the country side where I live it's you know and it's quite hilly so and the scenery changes and it's beautiful just to be out in the same with walking just to be out with the breeze and the rain or the wind or the smells of nature.
Starting point is 02:13:27 But yeah, certainly being in nature is one of the big things, one of my favourite things is to be near the river where I live. I'm a river lover. The River Dart, this is the most beautiful place in the world for me. The River Dart Valley, it's like a pure, pure valley untouched by humanity. Old mossy oak trees, lots of lichens, you know, you could be totally alone. Yeah, it's this beautiful. Wild English River. I don't know, ones that take me out of myself, well, there wouldn't be practices, but anything where I forget to breathe. Yeah, I have a family.
Starting point is 02:14:23 I'm a family man and I notice certain times of the day where pressure kind of builds usually sort of in the evening before supper time whether, you know, people are tired, my wife's tired, I'm getting tired, there's a meal to be made, daughter's arrived home, she's tired. There's a kind of crunch time where I can easily lose my centre. But I know that that time, you know, it's like, I don't give myself a hard time anymore if I do kind of lose my centre. And sometimes I might just snap out or something by, you know, and I'm like, damn, sorry. Yeah, it's human. Yeah, those moments. This tea, by the
Starting point is 02:15:18 way, is called Inner Master. I think there's always layers of mastery. Layer upon layer, it's like the infinity we were talking about earlier. The fourth pour. Yeah. I wish I had another cup, I'd do some for you. Enjoy. See, I think it's getting hotter. That one is quite hot. Yeah. I'm burning my fingers.
Starting point is 02:15:58 It's funny. We can let it sit. Same cup, same water. Yeah, we can let it sit for a little while. I think it's in its prime now. Have you ever learned anything about reading tea leaves? Yeah, that's where the tradition comes from. Does it? Yeah, not so much with oolongs, but with some of the deep poohers,
Starting point is 02:16:23 where the fragments just kind of depends deep poo heirs where the fragments just kind of depends on your pot, the fragments kind of come out. Yeah, I think, I mean, you enter this field of kind of transcendence a little bit after the seventh cup. And that's when it was traditional, so maybe to look at the tea leaves. And through that mind's eye, say, what you see. It's funny because I think of the practice of reading the tea leaves about the tea leaves, but it really is the whole journey leading up to the reading that really sets the stage to allow it to happen. Exactly, exactly. Yeah.
Starting point is 02:17:06 It's funny how these kind of things like that just get woven into our lives without us realizing where they crept in. I was sitting on a beach a few years ago drinking an amazing tea that someone, a friend had given me. And the tide was coming in and I did the full seven cups just sitting there for an hour and longer.
Starting point is 02:17:31 And after the seventh cup, because I was alone, I was just holding it there and I was just looking at the seventh cup before I drunk it. And this, these words came into my head it's all just a storm in a tea cup and I realized that expression storm in a tea cup yeah like where's that come from and but I totally got the joke because I was in that state where the entire universe was in my tea cup and I realized that we
Starting point is 02:18:03 make so much fuss about our lives, our tiny lives. You know, and I'd been looking around me and seeing all the tiny lichens and little creatures all around. And I sort of realized how small I was. It was a beautiful moment. I started laughing out loud actually at the joke.
Starting point is 02:18:24 Tea epiphanies, tipiphanies. It's really getting good. When did you first fall in love with poetry? I think Wordsworth turned me on to that. You know, William Wordsworth, English romantic poet, reading his works at school, probably. I mean, I studied Shakespeare and things before that, but you know, like we all did at kind of those school, well not all of us, but some of us. But Wordsworth kind of, he was a nature poet, and his poetry is very accessible. And I just fell in love with the kind of aura that he created in his poetry. And kind of loved his name as well.
Starting point is 02:19:15 I think it's a cool name for a poet. And yeah, and I think I started experimenting myself in my kind of late teens. Did anyone read you as a child? Yeah, my my mum and dad read to me a little bit. I mean, not overly. Yeah, I love the sound of words. I was also lazy at school, but I like I didn't want to read the novels. I just come to just do novels. I just can't be just either poems, they're really short. They also say Latin very concise, fewest amount of words and they say much more
Starting point is 02:19:54 often than the long tomes. Yeah and I think sometimes people mistake poetry for the ability to write poems, whereas for me poetry is about living poetically. So even if you never have written a poem, you might be one of the most poetic people because of the way you're living. So it's more of a way of life. And a poem is just a symbol that you said. It's about distilling beauty and truth into a small space. If you can do that, you have the heart of a poet.
Starting point is 02:20:32 Whether you do it through music, whether you do it through your business, whether you do anything, sport, anything you can distill down to like mastery. It's poetic. So yeah, for me it's more me it's more than, it's not about poems. One of my favorite writers who I discovered and I love to share is a Hungarian writer called Hamvasz Bela. Have I ever mentioned him to you before? Yeah, I think so.
Starting point is 02:21:02 B-E-L-A. He's not been translated much into English, but there is some stuff online and some of it's not very well translated. But he's such a free thinker. He died in about the 60s, 70s, I think. He's kind of Hungary's Shakespeare, but he didn't write plays. And what he did is he mastered the essay, the short kind of prose essay, but he wrote with such poetic insight.
Starting point is 02:21:32 And he's sometimes a devilish in his, I don't know, his turn of phrase, as much as there's no other writer I've ever come across like his, like the things or writes like him, there's no other right I've ever come across like his, like that thinks or writes like him, he's completely unique and has this beautiful, aesthetic sense of life in the cosmos. And you can tell he was also, he was vastly widely read and fascinated by the mysteries and had read the Yi Qing and the Bible and the Daodai Qing and every mystical book known and was a very, you know, had an incredible memory as well, one of those amazing people.
Starting point is 02:22:13 And then because of what happened in Hungary with communism, he was put to work in a factory. So a lot of his life was just spent as a factory worker, this completely wasted, you know, life. And a lot of his works were lost or burned, his masterworks, but still quite a bit remains. But as I said, a lot of it's not translated. I actually found a Hungarian friend and a housewife and I, you know, a single mother, I should say, and she, I paid her to translate
Starting point is 02:22:47 his works for me. His main sacred work is called Sienta-Sakura, Sacred Science. Never been translated into English, three volumes. And so she translated it for me roughly, kind of crudely, but well. And so it was this incredibly exciting feeling of reading being the first English person ever to read this master you know work of mystic wisdom that tracked from the very beginning of human thinking to right up to date now and a lot of his His insights have kind of I've suffused into some of my works.
Starting point is 02:23:27 I'd love to read it. But his, one of his beautiful pieces that's translated very well is called A Philosophy of Wine. And it's a sort of 80 page essay about wine, but he uses wine as a metaphor, but it's exquisite. It's really beautiful. And he talks about, you know, he's, he obviously was a lover of wine. He was a lover of everything fine.
Starting point is 02:23:53 You know, and so he talks about, you had to drink a certain wine on a certain time of year, but only if a woman was coming, and she had to be under 50, and then you drink this wine. to be under 50 and then you drink this wine. If she was over 50, you drink this wine. And then you had to have it in these cups at that time of year. You couldn't have it out of glasses.
Starting point is 02:24:12 And then everything. So he had refined down every single kind of, like a formula. And he goes into the kind of, what does he call it? The something like the matrix of the mouth, mouth harmonics. And he explores mouth harmonics and he talks about what the mouth really is for, you know?
Starting point is 02:24:38 And so he names three things. It's talking, the mouth puts out, drinking, the mouth takes in, kissing, the mouth does both. And so he combines the, you know, kissing is the highest form of mouth harmonics and he kind of lays out this beautiful tapestry of thinking around sensuality. And then he describes in the kind of the zones on a woman, you know, in a way that is so beautiful, like the different sense at different places in a woman's body. He's an artist, I would say, of the senses. He took it to its very highest pitch. So I'm a lover of his writings and his works. You could find that philosophy of wine online. It's really worth a read. He has a rant at the Communists in it as
Starting point is 02:25:33 well. He has a good rant. He calls them the atheists. But it's very amusing and very, very sharp. I mean, you would not want to be on the other side of this man. Number five. And you started writing poetry soon after reading? Words worth, yeah, I guess. I had a few kind of early attempts that were not particularly good. And then I think I just, Jared Manley Hopkins was amazing. I don't know if you heard his writing. Like he creates images, but it's all about the sounds.
Starting point is 02:26:12 So he just creates beautiful sounds. So you would just, you could listen to it if you didn't understand English. And it sounds so flowing. It's so musical. Beautiful, musical, lyrical. And so I kind of took a lot of inspiration from him and when I started to write,
Starting point is 02:26:31 I started to hear the sounds of words, following each other, flowing into each other. And I think I brought that into my writing. Do you read your work out loud when you're writing it? No, I hear it. It's very acoustic. As you're writing it. I hear I hear it. It's very... As you're writing it. I hear it and I hear what's coming next. And I hear for something... I hear... If I read it back
Starting point is 02:26:50 sometimes I'll be like, why? That doesn't work. That doesn't fit. That sentence is too long or too short or, you know, there's a repetition of a word that didn't quite work or, yeah, so I've become very sort of specific in my, yeah, it has to sound right. It's like the T, it has to kind of be served in the right way. I think what we learn getting deep into anything is that same appreciation in detail, it applies to everything, applies to everything we do. For me, even the sound is even more important than the meaning, in a way. Because the sound kind of conveys the frequency of the meaning,
Starting point is 02:27:43 as opposed to, do you know what I mean? Yes. It's the gaps that are part of the words as well. So if you don't get the gaps in the right places, the pauses, it doesn't hold the frequency of the truth that you're trying to convey. You don't want to get caught in trying to make the words bring the meaning, if you know what I mean. Yes. The meaning to make the words bring the meaning. If you know what I mean. Yes. The meaning comes between the words. Yes. And the work is being done by the sound
Starting point is 02:28:12 current. That's a nice way of putting it, yeah. I know I learned TM when I was young and in TM you get a mantra given to you but you're not told what the mantra means and I don't know if it has a meaning. It's more about the sound current and repeating the sound current internally. Funny we're talking about sound currents on the fifth cup. Throat. Funny how that happens. Coincidence. I would think if I was drinking 7 cups of something, unless I knew that 7 was the number,
Starting point is 02:28:59 I don't think I would count. Like, if I have a pitcher of water, and if I'm drinking water through the day I would never count the number of cups It's interesting practice to stay aware of the number of cups It's also nice because you kind of have an ending. Yeah, it's always nice to kind of feel there's a structure Mm-hmm, and I like the feeling of bringing it through the body. Yeah And it's about the length of a meditation. It's an hour or something. Just about enough water. Tell me about the clean space. The clean space. I guess that's a practice we can all do. Isn't that having a clean space?
Starting point is 02:29:53 It's one of the suggested practices in the back of my book. It's difficult to then touch in with an uncluttered space internally. So I think there's a relationship there to be contemplated. You know, I like for me, like living in a family where kids are coming and going and dropping stuff all over the place. I've had to learn not to kind of overly try and control them that because it just becomes a pain but I do have my space that is you know a place where I know is there's clarity and there's not too much stuff and there's kind of order and like in this room there's just lovely clear clean white crisp openness and I think it's so good for the soul.
Starting point is 02:30:54 There's no distractions. Yeah. If you go to like look at the artwork from China and Japan and you see it or music even like a lot of it is emptiness In fact, there's more emptiness in Japanese art than there is content. I think it's like 6040 something like maybe a bit more in terms of emptying there's more emptiness and Same with calligraphy like big big white page, just a few marks on it. There's such a beauty to that, like those lingering spaces. And then it really brings a focus to what is there. So I lived by that philosophy of only have things that are purely functional or very beautiful in your space. Hopefully both at the same time. That's the ultimate. Yeah.
Starting point is 02:31:57 And so it's really nice thing to do is to clear a space, clear your space, clear someone else's space, help them do that. It's a very therapeutic thing to do. And then having that space. There's also a sense of accomplishment when you do it. I feel a sense of relief when I tackle a task of organizing something, because it always feels overwhelming in the beginning stages,
Starting point is 02:32:22 but that feeling of the peace and balance of cleanliness really feels good. And anything you can bring simplicity to. Like if it's a business, for example, how do you simplify a business or a house or a, you know, how do you simplify things? That's such an incredible challenge. But if that once you live in an empty space, you become very wary of bringing things into it. Like when you may be out and about and see something, this is beautiful. I'd love to
Starting point is 02:32:56 have this at home. And then you think about it in your empty space, like, what's going to take over everything? I know. I think really hard now about taking someone gifts for that reason because I'm not sure I want someone to give me a gift. Yes. Because sometimes they're just giving me a problem. Yes. It's like, I don't need... I want books are good gifts.
Starting point is 02:33:19 Books are fine. And books are good to have. Good to have around. Yeah. I feel good with books around. Yeah. Because you can put them together on the shelf. But sometimes people were sending me books, sending me their books. I often don't have time to read them.
Starting point is 02:33:35 So it's difficult to know what to do with them. I don't want to just put them on my shelf and not read them. Because a few years ago I edited all my books back down to the essence books, which was a great thing to do. Yes. Yeah, so yeah, I don't want clutter. It becomes a discipline that. And the idea that our outside surroundings influence our inner life, so many things come
Starting point is 02:34:00 from that, the simple understanding that what's going on outside is going to influence what's going on inside. Yeah. But at the same time, there's that, you know, you might be married to someone who's just not like that, you know, in which case you have to kind of, if you love them and you're not going to leave them presumably because they're untidy, you know, you have to expand your own ability to find to hold that space. Yeah. And even allow, because I think, you know, like compassion allows for anything, right? So it's about even being okay with a little bit of clutter, you know, if you can't control it. But yeah, I think it's a good,
Starting point is 02:34:48 I think you're really good at simplifying, you know, you have that down really beautifully, I see that. I lived in a house in Los Angeles filled with antiques and then I got a house at the beach, the beach house was empty and I just ended up never going back to the other house. And I liked the empty house. Yeah.
Starting point is 02:35:09 For when I first moved to California, I moved into an empty house. And it was great living in an empty house. And then over the years, I got some furniture. And it was never better than when it was empty. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Number seven. Last one, yeah. The sixth is really the peak.
Starting point is 02:35:35 The seventh is coming back to earth. The closing. Yeah. I've actually had experiences on the seventh cup where it's often just that very You're back to ordinaryness You know The spiritual plane has been ascended and then you're back to chopping wood and carrying water It changes colors.
Starting point is 02:36:05 Quite good. It's much lighter. You can taste more of the water, you know, the minerals in the water. So if you have a really good water, that's a key thing and tea is the water. You have to have good quality water. There's a story about the guy, the master sending his student off to get the water, to fetch the water and he tells him to go and get it from the top spring and it's a long long walk. This is the tea master and the guy walks and walks and walks for
Starting point is 02:36:32 miles and miles and miles and then he goes to just below the spring because he doesn't want to sit so there's like several springs and he doesn't want to do the last little steep climb but it's like 500 yards further and he gets it from there and of course he gets it from there and of course he brings it back and then the master says you didn't get the right water when he tastes it you didn't get it from the spring the sauce yeah amazing if you could actually you know know, tell that from drinking water, just water. That was beautiful.
Starting point is 02:37:10 Thank you so much for the tea ceremony. It's a real pleasure. I love it. Yeah. When did 55 come in the series as they were coming? Yeah, I think maybe about two thirds through, something like that. At the time, did it feel different than the others? Yeah, definitely.
Starting point is 02:37:29 What was different? Well, I couldn't come up with a word for the gift, right? So there was the only one, I just, I couldn't find a word. And so the word I had for the city, the highest level, was freedom. Freedom.
Starting point is 02:37:48 So I knew it was the key of freedom. And the shadow is the key of victimization. So you have the victim side. So it's kind of a master key of the whole gene keys, really. Because they're all about victim states, the shadows, and the cities are all about freedom, forms of freedom. And so I had to trust my contemplation because it would always locate the word somewhere
Starting point is 02:38:16 in the pantheon. And the fact that it didn't, I then contemplated that. So I went into a long contemplation, well why isn't there one? And then I had this realization that it was the key where change was taking place so that there was an anomaly. And so in a way it was where the gift and where the sort of gift becomes the city and in a way it's where we transform first. So it's a place in our genome, it's a place in our DNA where the transformation of consciousness begins and so it's almost like in genetics where everything's written in sequences, it's almost like you splice the like the evolutionary current has spliced in a new sequence and it kind of interrupted an old
Starting point is 02:39:15 sequence and spliced in this new mutation and from that point onwards everything changes. So it's difficult to explain because I kind of saw it and felt it. So it's from here that all the keys begin to change. Do you know what 55 was in the original E change? Yeah, it's often it's called abundance actually. So it is that kind of, there's different ways of which people have translated the original term, but it is generally about this kind of, there's different ways of which people have translated the original term, but it is generally about this kind of explosive flowering of freedom.
Starting point is 02:39:52 And so it has that relationship. And its dark side is definitely quite intense because it is that very deep emotional victim energy. Is the valence always the same that the more powerful the gift is, the darker the shadow is? Is there a way of balance like that? I think so. I mean, there's definitely a relationship. The Gene Keys is, you know, it's like a holographic language. So all the shadows are one thing. They're all the same state, and all the gifts are all the creative transformation of that
Starting point is 02:40:32 state in different ways. Like yours, we looked at was the creative process of, you know, the word is freshness, so there's this constant freshness finding its way towards beauty. And at the shadow it's that kind of deep melancholic entropy. That's Jin Ki Won. So all the keys are kind of like that. So if you look in one key, you're just reading them all, which is a bit of a joke in a way because it's like every single key, if you read each one, you're reading the same story over and over and over again. Just from a different aspect.
Starting point is 02:41:05 From a different aspect. Different point of view. But this 155, it does tell the story of all the keys, but it also tells that a prophecy, it holds a prophecy. That was why I was kind of a bit blown away by it, because it suddenly had this different quality to it and then as that opened up in me a whole stream of information, knowledge, wisdom, memory kind of came through me as I was writing the book and I was really quite shocked. What does 55 predict? It's about what I call the future
Starting point is 02:41:41 human. You know so I think that the reasoning behind the whole GeneKey's book and the writings and the teachings are that they're here now, at this time, preparing us for something that's coming, a future potential mutation in human beings. And we've mutated in the past or transmuted from one species to another. And our genes do that, they create forks sometimes. And then often an old species withers on the vine
Starting point is 02:42:17 and a new one grafted on comes and starts a new kind of phase of evolution. And so that's what I saw, felt, kind of heard and was filled with from this key. And it's sort of message. So it concerns that transformation. And it has a beautiful allegory woven into it, which is, you can read in the key,
Starting point is 02:42:42 it talks about, it's called Heavenly Hydraulics. And it's the life, the allegory is the life cycle of a dragonfly. And it's why when you look at the Gene Key's books, you see these dragonflies sitting in them. And it's a symbol, you see it on my name, and you see it because it's kind of the prophetic part of the wisdom.
Starting point is 02:43:00 And the beauty of the life cycle of the dragonfly is it starts its life as a nymph. It lives underwater, it's called a nymph. And it lives for like two or three years as an underwater predator. That's its life. And it doesn't know anything other than that. It's kind of lackluster, it feeds on all kinds of things that it finds underwater. Other insects and little fish and things. luster, it feeds on all kinds of things that it finds underwater, other insects
Starting point is 02:43:25 and little fish and things. And then one day in its life cycle something different happens, usually in the summer or the spring, late spring, it will find a stalk of grass or a reed or something and it will latch onto it with its legs and it will crawl up it out towards the Sun and it crawls for the first time ever out of the water and sits in the air clinging to a stalk of grass or a reed and then this incredible process happens I should say actually before this happens that there's several stages called malts where the dragonfly, like a butterfly, goes through internal changes. So it has several of those while it's underwater, which lead to this leaving the water environment
Starting point is 02:44:19 and then coming up into the sun. And then what happens is within a very short space of time, compared to its life cycle, its back starts to split open and this new creature that's hidden inside it emerges. And it has a thorax, it's this incredible big thorax that just pushes out from the old creature
Starting point is 02:44:43 that's kind of still clinging to the stalk. And you might kind of sort of think sometimes, I wonder what it thinks, if it could think at that moment, what the hell is going on? Anyway, so the water in it, because it's a water creature, is actually the energy that forces the new creature to open. It's literally a hydraulic process where the water element pushes the thorax and the wings and brings it out of the old creature. And then it's sitting there, it's sitting there kind of drying off.
Starting point is 02:45:21 And it's gone and it sort of waits for a puff of wind and then it's off and it's this multicoloured iridescent extraordinary one of the most aerodynamic complex hunters that the world in the insect kingdom is also very very ancient you know the dragonflies were here with the dinosaurs and so it it goes, it sort of skips a step in all its several steps you could think because it goes from the water element to the air element. So it's an extraordinary metaphor for consciousness. And that was the metaphor that came through the 55th Gene's Key that if we are that dragonfly, if we are that lava, that nymph, and it's underwater stage, and we're in those victim patterns,
Starting point is 02:46:11 because we don't know anything else, we can't even imagine the future. It's unimaginable, because it's so far from our reality, if you can imagine, the butterfly's a lovely metaphor as well. But in a way, I think the keys, these Jean keys, the 55th key especially suits the dragonfly because it's this shift from the water element to the air element and the water element in a way is our desire nature. And it's our desire nature and our sexuality and our creativity, and our sexuality and our creativity, all that energy that actually is the thing that's going to transform us.
Starting point is 02:46:49 If you read the book, if you read the 55, it talks about the solar plexus a lot. It's like it's located. This change, this mutation is located in the solar plexus center. This is something that Ra of the human design system also predicted. And so I was aware of this when the Jinkies came along and I'd sort of put it to the back of my mind slightly. And then when this dragonfly of the 55th key wrote itself and emerged,
Starting point is 02:47:19 I suddenly realized what he'd been talking about, that this center here in us, this solar plexus area, that we're now understanding biologically as like an incredible kind of, it's where most of our DNA lives in the bacteria in our gut, you know, 80, 90% of our DNA is actually bacteria living in our gut. And considered our second brain. Exactly. Yeah. But in a way, it's our first brain because it has a higher intelligence at some level than the thinking brain because it bypasses thought. And also, it's instinctive, it's spontaneous. That's why it's the gut. We talk about having a gut feeling.
Starting point is 02:48:06 So my understanding is that there's a mutation, and this is again what Rah said, there'll be a mutation that takes place in the equipment of our solar plexus, and that our new awareness will be born from that centre. And so in a way, our new awareness is the awareness of these higher states that manifest these cities that are in every genie. Yeah, so it's entering into miraculous domains. It's entering into a kind of, that's why it has a prophetic flavor to it,
Starting point is 02:48:43 because it kind of has to because it's a quantum leap. It involves a quantum leap. Going from this creature to this creature involves a quantum leap. So the future human is something that we can't quite imagine. It's so far removed from where we are now, but also the prediction, the prophecy is that it will happen quite quickly. You know, as the dragonfly, there's been a long slow buildup.
Starting point is 02:49:10 It's like a great awakening. Exactly. So it's the great, and then it talks about the great change, you know, which is like obviously these times were born in. And I see that quite broadly, like not. I wonder if these great changes that we go through are related to technology changes. If some new breakthrough in technology changes the way we live and then through the new way we live, we adapt to this new way and change. I think it's absolutely, completely involved.
Starting point is 02:49:39 Because even the birth of the internet, in a sense, is a kind of precursor of our future awareness. And our future awareness is an Internet, you know, but the mistake sometimes I think that some people might make is thinking that it's technology that's going to be the part that kind of advances us, instead of realizing we are the technology, we contain the technology. And the outer technology is a metaphor or a symbol or a reflection or a mirror of what we actually contain inside and that's why it's kind of manifesting. So what I'm talking about is a networked consciousness in which I think many people have kind of, have also is feeling that that's a potential for us,
Starting point is 02:50:30 that humanity at its next level of evolution could become a networked consciousness, but without the need for external technology, that actually is a telepathic. Yeah, I think it's possible that it was more the case. And we got away from it with the outer technology. We lost some of our gifts. I think so. Yeah. It was what I also understood from when I
Starting point is 02:50:59 wrote the 55th Genki and some of the stuff I wrote, I kind of read it back to myself after I just thought that's really outlandish. Is it fascinating though to birth something and then to be able to go back to it and wonder where it came from? It's very unusual and especially something that sounds prophetic. I was a little bit uncomfortable, to be honest.
Starting point is 02:51:21 I still am a bit like, oh wow. But it felt an integral part of the whole and it felt like after that, key came suddenly, everything took on a new meaning and the reason for the whole teachings and the wisdom and this new version of the Yi-Chang coming, if you like, this new version of the E-chain coming, if you like, is to prepare us for this next stage, you know, of us crawling up the stalk as a species and not quite knowing what we're going to become. And in a way, you could look at everything
Starting point is 02:51:54 that's happening around us as part of that process. It does feel like things are changing very quickly. When you say that the 55th key was a change, was it a change in the writing of the last third, or was it a change in 56, 57, 58, 59 through 64? No, I think it just, because I didn't write them in order, so I wrote them spontaneously.
Starting point is 02:52:21 Although there might be something in that that you've just said said because sequences are fascinating. They're fascinating and we don't understand why they come in the order they come, but it seems to have some logic that we may not understand. I think you're right. I think you're right. I'd love to explore that more one day. The actual original sequence, it was called in Yi Qing, it was called the Qing Wen sequence, where the hexagrams were laid out in this order.
Starting point is 02:52:47 And there is a beautiful story that unfurls through them. So you could say that, yes, freedom in the 55 then opens up into the intoxicated state of the 56 and then dawns the clarity of the 57. And you could look at this whole, there's lots of ways in which you can kind of tell these stories through the patterns. Yeah, I think another nice one, we talk about these things,
Starting point is 02:53:15 and Genki's called the Code on Rings. And they were interesting when I started to contemplate them, and I gave them names, and there's 21 of them. I gave them these kind of colorful names. And the codon ring, which is these little families, groupings of these gene keys, sometimes they're four, sometimes they're two, sometimes they're singles, you know,
Starting point is 02:53:40 so they're little clusters. This is a two and it pairs the 55 with the 49. And the 49 is the key of rebirth. And the reason it pairs is that in a circle of the 64, they would be opposite? No, those are the partners we talked about. These are more mysterious there to do with groupings that kind of correlate through the amino acids
Starting point is 02:54:04 that they share, that the gene keys share. I see. So it's more like shared family. Exactly. And they are, they're a mirror of what happens in our DNA, you know, of the chemical groupings. That's why they call codons because they code for specific amino acid connections. And remember, I'm a poet, right?
Starting point is 02:54:23 So this is a poet's view of DNA, not a scientific view. But it is based in the kind of same fractal architecture of the DNA. So it's kind of a, it's beautiful. Yes. I think who better than a poet to explain this, really. Well, and it means I'm not limited by scientific language, so I can use the imagination and some smattering of scientific insight. But yeah, so that key, the name I gave that code on ring of those two keys together was the ring of the whirlwind. And they have lovely names like that.
Starting point is 02:54:58 And they relate to the arcana of the tarot, actually, which you might find interesting, because there's 22 of them, you know, and they also relate to the Hebrew alphabet. So they, they can't, it's a very, it's a beautiful code. It's amazing that those codes from the tarot, which is rooted in Egyptian Kabbalistic mysticism, and then the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet are all rooted in our biology through the codon rings, through these collections in our DNA, these 22 chromosomes that we have. So I love those patterns.
Starting point is 02:55:35 And this particular one, the ring of the whirlwind, so you can guess which tarot card it is, the whirlwind, it's the tower. Oh yes. Yeah. And which is the storm whirlwind, it's the tower. Oh yes. Yeah. And which is the storm that's coming. With the lightning. And the lightning and the, you know, it involves quantum leap, a kind of massive change. That's what it relates to.
Starting point is 02:55:57 And so that's why the two keys are freedom and rebirth. It's the rebirth of freedom or the freedom of rebirth. And rebirth is different from revolution, which is the gift name for 49, hexagram 49, gene key 49, they call it, it's called revolution. So the higher form of revolution is rebirth because revolution goes around and keeps doing the same, you know, like all the revolutions we see. But rebirth is of another dimension. So it's when a whole speed, it's an entire system change, reboots itself and goes in a completely new direction that had no relationship to the old. And that's why this is quite wild and it's why the Jean Qu Keys is quite a kind of, it's very visionary in that way
Starting point is 02:56:45 because you know the new human has no relationship to the old human in a way. It's founded on it but the new direction, it looks very different and so if you think about that, the view that we have right now through science, through evolution and all the things we know, if you look at, if you're trying to project into the future, you're projecting based on what you know from the past. So you look at the patterns of the past and the cycles and things and you think, well, you know, some people might think, yeah, we're going to go to Mars and then we're going to colonize here and then we'll find how to travel at the speed of light and technology will do all these amazing things. That's the assumption that most people have looking into the future.
Starting point is 02:57:36 I question that knowing what I know about the 55th Genki because the relationship of the future is not related to the past. So it looks like there's a break. Rauru, who also predicted the same thing, predicted there's going to be... His was a darker, I have to say, his was a darker prediction than mine. He saw it more apocalyptic. I don't see that. You know, I see a different metaphorical story through the dragonfly, which is that, yeah, we'll take to the air, literally.
Starting point is 02:58:11 And our consciousness will find a new way to operate. And it sounds like a more interconnected way. It's very interconnected. It's a new human. It's a new human that actually has to come through birth. So in other words, and again, something that Ralph predicted is that children would start entering into the world with a genetic mutation that would then spread and slowly over years, hundreds of years, colonize human species. It's quite wild. It's like a science fiction, but it's a positive virus
Starting point is 02:58:47 in that sense because it networks us into a new kind of intelligence. But again, the new human, even though it's related perhaps to a very old version, as you said, like the instinctive part of us, the almost deep mammalian part, the animal part of us that really, you know, the animals have that collective intelligence, don't they? We see it in the bird kingdom, we see it in insect kingdom, we see it in the mammals as well, wild dogs for example, you know, they have a networked intelligence that enables them to work telepathically. Also, I understand mushrooms as well.
Starting point is 02:59:24 Mushrooms. And redwood trees. Totally. Also, I understand mushrooms as well. Mushrooms. And redwood trees. Totally. All are in communication with each other. Yeah. I mean, it's everywhere. And I think humans in our kind of hunter-gatherer stage, and before we started building civilizations, we had that same intelligence, I would say.
Starting point is 02:59:41 So it is rooted in something that's deeply ancestral, but I think it's a lot more advanced in the future human because we've gone through a lot of stages since then, so we've changed. So we can utilize that ancient intelligence, which is in the gut, so we have it and we're going to be a new hybrid kind of being. I think Homo Sanctus was my name for it, the sacred human. Yes, beautiful. I'm thinking back to you mentioning the Jinki, Kodans, the Hebrew alphabet and the tarot all being related and when I first hear that it seems like it's too far out, like it's
Starting point is 03:00:23 too wild. And then the more I think about it, it's more like there's whatever reality is, and then there are different ways of explaining it. It's almost like the same sonnet in two different languages. Of course, they're saying the same thing. They're just two different languages saying the same thing. So the content is always the same. For any of these systems, it's all the same. They're just a different language. But the things that they're talking about, they're using different names, they're putting different labels on it, but
Starting point is 03:00:55 it's all the same. It's one system, it is what is. Yeah, exactly. They're using different number systems. Yes. You know the chakra is they use seven human design uses nine each uses 64 Kabbalah uses 32 or 10 Everything has a slightly different, you know, there's astrology uses 12 and lots of other You know potential numbers, but yeah, all these different... They're all describing the same thing. Exactly. They're just cutting it up in a different way. Exactly. Yeah. It's a language of light. Essentially, it's what it is.
Starting point is 03:01:38 It's a really big revelation for me. It's exciting for me to think about it. Everything makes more sense when viewed that way. Yeah, I agree and nothing's left out. No. Even the shadow is not left out. Even corruption is not, that's what I love about the Jean Keys, like there's a Jean Key, shadow 50, it's corruption.
Starting point is 03:02:01 It's all in there. What's the gift on the corruption on 50? Harmony. Harmony. It's like, and so you see like, it's just a corrupt information stream. You could look at it like we talk about data has been corrupted. It's all it is. It's corrupted data that then has to go through a process of sorting itself out, transforming, and then attaining a higher harmony,
Starting point is 03:02:27 a hidden harmony in a way. So yeah, everything's left out, no part of the shadow is left out. Yeah, even sort of lots of really quite wild, difficult concepts that we struggle with, to do with suffering, are also woven into these keys. Well, their shadows and the shadow is always related to light. There is no shadow without light. Exactly. I even at one point made the suggestion somewhere in the book, think that the darkness, the shadow, is actually an intensification
Starting point is 03:03:08 of light. But it's so bright that you can't see it. So if you think about that, that's like, that's a different way of looking at darkness. But actually if something is really, really bright, it's so bright, it actually appears invisible or dark to us. We can't see it. We're blinded by it. And in a way, darkness is the beauty of it, is that it's light, actually. There's nowhere in the universe where there isn't light. And in the yin yang, the dark side is the positive side, isn't it? Yeah. Well, the feminine as well.
Starting point is 03:03:54 Yeah, it's the yielding. It's the out of the dark, you know, it's in the Bible, isn't it? Out of the darkness came forth the light. And like I said, for like out, it's really interesting when it comes to physics, I think, and astrophysics like the notion of black holes that suck in light. And then there's this notion of that's been postulated of white holes that may be the other side of black holes that would make sense to me, anyway, intuitively, would spew out light. So you'd have these two, you end up with a torus, a toroidal field, which is, again, what's been proposed at the kind of foundation of
Starting point is 03:04:38 all natural systems are these toroidal spin sort of vortices. Have you ever done Gene Key's readings for luminaries of the past? Occasionally, but I haven't spent a lot of time doing that kind of thing. As you know, I don't use the profiles much myself, but yeah, I think it's a great, would be a great idea. Just be curious.
Starting point is 03:05:02 Yeah, curious. Yeah, I mean, I love doing yours. It was just very revealing, wasn't it? I'm shocking to me. When we looked at my reading, which we were able to find through going to jeankey.com and putting in my birth date, we saw a little picture. What do you call that? The profile?
Starting point is 03:05:24 The picture we looked at, the profile. Yeah. Tell me about the shape of the profile and what the different circles mean. Yeah. So it's a kind of, it's a sequencing map, basically. How many balls are there? There are 11. And there are more to come, actually, which will be arriving next year.
Starting point is 03:05:45 A couple more. Yeah, it's a way of telling the narrative of your awakening. And initially, I saw it and kind of laid it out as three sequences. As I said, it's going to be four, actually. But there's three basic sequences, and the first one is made up of four gene keys which are called your activation sequences. It's the one that activates the beginning of your awakening process and it also has to do with your individual awakening and your genius, unlocking a genius inside you that lies latent. And your purpose, it's all same
Starting point is 03:06:25 language like your purpose is to unlock your genius. So it's about that. And the name of my book on the front of the book is embracing your higher purpose. It's about your awakening that higher purpose. And so those four keys are pillars and there's a series of three pathways that move through them in a zigzag and you know that connect them and that's the sequence and so the first pathway is called challenge and then breakthrough and then core stability and so your gene keys and Individual gene keys are threaded along those pathways. So it gives you an unique story to you so my very instance
Starting point is 03:07:08 unique story to you. So my, for instance, my top one is 64, then the next one is 63. So the challenge for me is really lying in 63, which is doubt, the shadow is doubt. So my greatest challenge has been given all this revelation to doubt it, and to doubt myself and to just doubt whether I'm mad, and do I really want to do this and go out there with all this stuff. And so I've had to overcome and explore those doubts and the gift of hidden in that doubt is the gift of inquiry. So I've explored the doubt in depth and understood its fear base and then come to trust and then found truth which is the, so that's my story, so challenge. And then there's a breakthrough, I won't tell the whole story of mine, but.
Starting point is 03:07:50 You can, it's fine. Well, I'm curious. Yeah, well, that, it leads in a sequence. So that embracing of that challenge leads to a breakthrough, which leads to the next fear, which is called radiance. And the radiance is literally our kind of health operating unimpeded. So it is, we literally do become radiance.
Starting point is 03:08:12 So we all have this hidden radiance and it's part of our genius, it's part of our emanation of our higher self, of our higher being. So unlocking one's radiance is a breakthrough that happens when we accept our challenge, our primary challenge in life. You know, for me, my radiance is all about boundlessness, like opening up to the potential that anything is possible. And boundlessness is one of those beautiful cities. It's a, you know, the, and that particular GeneKey 35 is a kind of potentially miraculous, is where miracles can
Starting point is 03:08:47 enter the world. And then the final part is core stability as your radiant starts to open up and you embrace those higher possibilities in your life and you embody them, then you actually become stable and grounded in your true purpose. So for me, that's actually about timelessness. So you have these two pairings of, you have their programming partners. So they're pairings in the gene keys, Pantheon, 63 and 64, and then five and 35, those keys.
Starting point is 03:09:20 And in your activation sequence. And again, these are not ones you chose. No. These are ones that are just based on when you were born. Exactly. They show up in your chart. Exactly. And everyone has this narrative, the same narrative of challenge, breakthrough, course stability.
Starting point is 03:09:34 But what the challenge is, what the breakthrough is. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a lovely little narrative. It's a way of bringing people into a contemplative journey with their gene keys. It's kind way of bringing people into a contemplative journey with their gene keys. It's kind of fun. And then it moves from there, from core stability, which is what gives you this kind of sense
Starting point is 03:09:52 of deep purpose in the world. And then the next sequence is a much bigger sequence. It's called Venus sequence, because it has relationship to positions of planet Venus and Mars when we were born. And that Venus and Mars for a long time in astrology and mythology has always been connected with the polarities that live within inside us. Venus of love and Mars and war. Yeah. Male and female and animus, anima, emotions and mind, intellect. So in here you have IQ, your IQ IQ you have a gene key that relates to your IQ.
Starting point is 03:10:28 You have a gene key that relates to your EQ. You know so your male female sides EQ is your emotional intelligence of as your IQ is your intellectual intelligence. And then you have another gene key deeper called your SQ which combines the the two. It's like the soul quality that transcends both of those, but also includes them both. We looked at your SQ, which was the creative, the essence of creativity, you know, the Genki 1 Line 1 that you have. And I was just joking with you because you've, you know, you've written a book about the foundation of creativity and
Starting point is 03:11:05 Genki one line one is the foundation of creativity and it's right in your SQ. So it's a beautiful moment. It was surprising to see. It's just bizarre. It's beautiful. Yeah. And the Venus Sequence is a powerful piece of work. It's kind of shadow work.
Starting point is 03:11:21 So people that go on the journey of exploring their vener sequence really have to come to terms with how they were wounded in their childhood or might even be an ancestral wound that they're carrying in their DNA that they aren't fully aware of or they may be aware of it and that their job is to come to terms with it and transform it. And so it's a wound map, basically. It's not something that most people would want to consciously look at, but because it's got gene keys loaded into it, you can see that it has a higher purpose. And the benefit of it is it also gives you the remedies.
Starting point is 03:12:00 It gives you the remedies, exactly. And it shows you the shadows in exact detail. And you don't just look through the keys, you look through the line numbers as well. And the line numbers are six lines for every Jean Key. So the line numbers are keynoted all through the sequences. And so it enables us to tell a very accurate language of, how did my heart shut down when I was young?
Starting point is 03:12:24 Which part of my mind went on the defensive and how? So, you know, it shows you your teenage patterns, shows you your emotional kind of defense reflexes. Doesn't matter. The story is unique to you. Only you know what happened. Sometimes people don't know what happened. But the deeper you go back,
Starting point is 03:12:44 the more you see the layering of how we closed down. We're actually meant to close down in order that we can open up. That's the whole sequence. So when you look at the sequence, you're looking in reverse with your awareness at here are the steps of the awakening of my heart. You know, here are the unfolding stages.
Starting point is 03:13:06 So I first have to deal with this issue of how I shut down. And it also relates to seven-year cycles in our childhood. We know that the body is imprinted in seven-year cycles biologically, but also I was kind of inspired by the work of Rudolf Steiner, who really, through the Steiner schools and the Waldorf curriculum, has a very deep understanding of how children develop,
Starting point is 03:13:32 you know, naturally. And so those three cycles relate to those EQ IQ SQ. You know, they relate to the three seven-year cycles of childhood, you know, seven to, naught seven year cycles of childhood. You know seven to zero to seven seven to fourteen puberty and then fourteen to twenty one teenage years adulthood. So it's really interesting the venus sequence it's like. I know a lot of people who work with it and they say it's the most profound work they've ever done a lot of psychotherapists and people who who really tank get just deeply embedded with it and are using it in a therapeutic way. So it's very therapeutic but it's also still a contemplative set of tools, the Jean Keys. But that's a very deep journey indeed because it unpicks your relationships, basically. It's the story of your relationships and
Starting point is 03:14:30 how you relate. And so it's profound. And then the third sequence is called The Pearl, and that's about prosperity. It's about how we prosper in life and prosperity is given in slightly new definition. It's a full systems thing. Prosperity is not just about having money, a full systems thing. Prosperity is not just about having money, it's about prospering through health, through vitality, in relationships and friends. It's about really finding the essence in life. And it's a lot to do with simplicity actually. It's very hard to truly prosper in life
Starting point is 03:15:00 unless you've found simplicity, some form of simplicity. So, yeah, it's quite interesting that one. It shows keys that might have an impact to how we run a business, for example, or how we might make money. And more than anything, it shows us how we are designed to collaborate. So it shows us one of the gene keys is called Sinak Sinaki, GQ 44 and Sinaki is the sort of higher. Operating system of humanity when the intelligence is networked so it's sort of geniuses coming together.
Starting point is 03:15:38 And doing great things that a single genius. You know a single genius can do a, but imagine a room full of geniuses networking their intelligence together. Imagine what's possible. And the Pearl sequence describes that kind of, that future consciousness that I was talking about. So it's really powerful. It shows you, it gives you a kind of grid
Starting point is 03:16:01 for your highest potential. And in each case, there are 64 keys and there are six possible lines. And when we get our profile back, we see a key and a line. And are the one through six lines, do they always mean the same thing? So in other words, regardless of which number of gene you have have, if it's 56-1 or 27-1, if it's line 1, does line 1 always mean the same thing regardless of what key it's attached to? Yeah, it's like music with different octaves, right?
Starting point is 03:16:36 So the note is the same note, but in a different octave, it sounds in a different way. Yes. So the keynotes that are threaded through the sequences all line one keynotes have the same feeling but they're different words because they're in different spheres. So the language adjusts itself. Which, if you have line one in the base, in the sphere at the bottom of your chart, the keynote for that, the keynotes for those six keynotes are all in the body, the system's in the body. So the keynote for line one is the structure of our body, which is our bones.
Starting point is 03:17:29 So line ones are always structural like bones. And if you move it up into different spheres, it's always still, like I said with yours. So it sounds like one through six are the octaves. They're the octaves, I understand. Exactly. You get it? And the through six are the octaves. They're the octaves, I understand. Exactly, you get it. And then- And the key is the note.
Starting point is 03:17:48 Exactly, exactly. And then you have to, you know, once you learn the language, your contemplation begins to unpick your narrative. And it's a story you thread together. You have to do a bit of contemplative work, but it's beautiful because you get to see this is my story. And you know, I've created these programs where
Starting point is 03:18:10 I did a lot of work over years or I'd explored all the lines and gave them these keynotes and then invited people to explore how do you take lines three, Genki 12? And because if I wrote all of them, it would just take me ages. So I wanted, and also wanted people to figure out for themselves. But we know that every line three is very versatile. It's very changeable. It's very, you know, flexible.
Starting point is 03:18:37 So if you then took Genki 12 and you go, well, what's that like through that line? And how different would be if it was a line four? You know, so the stories change. It's beautiful. It's a really beautiful thing. And yeah, once you learn the language, as I said, and I've written books and things,
Starting point is 03:18:56 so that they help, they give you the language and the tools so that you can unpick your own story. Ultimately, it's all an invitation for the participant to find a way in to understand their story. Understand their story, their karma, their dharma, their emotions, their relationships, their relationship to money, their relationship to health. It's all in there, but you don't do it all at once.
Starting point is 03:19:24 You do it in steps and stages. I laid it out in these sequences so that you do it in step by step by step. If you do the whole story, together, it's called the golden path. I call all those stages and steps the golden path. You're walking the golden path. If you did the whole thing,
Starting point is 03:19:45 it's at least a year's contemplation. I mean, you couldn't rush it. I mean, you could rush it, but it's gonna be a minimum of a year. Yeah, and it's not about that. No, most people, they do this and they take years because the Jinkies book and these tools are like, they're wisdom tools.
Starting point is 03:20:02 It's like, of course, in miracles. You don't just pick it up and read it in a couple of months. You work with it for years. Yeah. And it's also like a Rochak test because it's giving you something to react to. Yeah. And it has that lovely effect that as you're contemplating it, it starts to come alive in your life. So if you're contemplating a certain key in a certain line, like when I wrote the book, you start to see it reflected and then you go, oh, there it is. I experience it all the time. The things that I'm working on where I'll have a thought about something that seems far out and then all day long, it's coming at me.
Starting point is 03:20:43 It's like, it's unbelievable. How did I not see this yesterday? How did I not see this every day up until the thought came? And then the thought comes like, oh, that's what everything says. Yeah. Any contemplative journey, that's the magic of it. It comes alive.
Starting point is 03:21:00 I think that's the magic of contemplation and you're contemplative. That's why you unlock that as well. And many people, most people are contemplative a little bit. And so everyone knows that experience. It appears in a dream or it appears through the internet or something, you know. For three people mention the same thing, you know, three people, like, hey, have you seen this? Have you seen this? Have you seen this? Have you seen that? Yeah. It gets really interesting when you kind of reach certain crux points in your profile journey,
Starting point is 03:21:35 you know, because there are points where there's a place in your profile in the venous sequence called your core wound, right? And I suggest that people kind of work their way down towards it and so that they're ready to kind of look at what's my core wound and the core, everyone has one, right? And the core wounds of humanity are sacred in a way because they contain great beauties. You know, they're the way the grace is hidden. And so, but they kind of are the nexus
Starting point is 03:22:08 or the root of our suffering. So when you start contemplating those kind of things, you start to realize, you know, how your individual wound is connected to the wound of ancestry, humanity, racial gene pools, everywhere you see it, and you start to realize, oh my God, I'm just a tiny drop in this ocean of suffering. And once you see suffering as fractal, you start to feel compassion. You then realize even terrible things that you hear about are kind of just representations of the same thing in you
Starting point is 03:22:48 So because you've touched it in yourself You start to see it everywhere else, but you don't you no longer afraid of it So you start to feel true compassion the kind of compassion that You know masters speak of and it's not just a made up word, it's a felt resonance that comes as love and understanding. You understand why that person did that awful thing. You understand, because you've got it in you. And so that becomes really interesting
Starting point is 03:23:21 when we get down to those depths. I have a fun idea of an experiment for us to try. We could try it right now. Tell me what you think. I think of the Jiden Keys as a very human system. And since it's rooted in time, because it starts with the time of birth, if we were to take an event from history that happened at a specific time, We could do walking on the moon and look at the key for the moment
Starting point is 03:23:48 man walked on the moon and see what comes up. It's interesting. Have you ever used it in a non-human way? Some have. I know some people have done a lot of that kind of stuff and astrologers do a lot of that. And yeah, it's fascinating always. Like we do it with with my business,
Starting point is 03:24:05 for example, like when the business was founded, we did a little profile, we're like, because it gives us keys of like, oh, this is what we're here to do. This is our Dharma. Anything that any project that begins, if you know the key, when it begins, because it's the same as birth, isn't it? Something was born. What is that moment of imprinting? What were the forces kind of spiraling around? What was the fractal of that particular moment? Yeah, I love doing that. Should we do one? Sure. What would be a pick and event?
Starting point is 03:24:36 Oh, well, I don't know. We'd then have to, yeah, maybe a more recent one, so it's a little easier. Okay. Let's see. what would be a big event that we could time down to the hour? Yeah, or moment, like pivotal moments, like discoveries of penicillin, that kind of thing. Like that changed, yeah. We can do penicillin if you like.
Starting point is 03:25:00 It's kind of interesting because it led to the healing of vast numbers of people. Let's see if there's a date associated. Yeah, I wonder. September 3rd, 1928. 1928. That's not too far. That's according to the History Channel.
Starting point is 03:25:19 It's good enough. So, okay, got it. it's good enough. So according to me the discovery of penicillin took place when the sun was in Jinky 40 and line 6 and the earth which is opposite so there's power there's always this programming part of these pairs can you look we can look at the pairs is 37 line 6 so you get to see those two 40 and 37 and 40 is the city is about divine will so it like, it's really powerful. It's the kind of, these are moments of like, something higher, touching down, and occurring that's beyond, you know, our understanding. So kind of a form of grace and the sixth line also makes sense that it happened by accident. Exactly. You can't be specific Exactly. It's the grace aspect of it.
Starting point is 03:26:25 It wasn't something controlled. Which is an insight generally about life and Dharma and destiny as a whole. And the 37 which pairs with it is the hexagram of the family, right, the human family, you could say. So this impacted the entire human family and probably healed huge numbers of families because penicillin, as we know, led to the kind of eradication of all kinds of horrendous viruses and development of modern medicine and immunology and stuff. So, and the sixth line brings this kind of vision with it. It's at the top of a hexagram.
Starting point is 03:27:12 So it brings something always for the future. It's always about the future. Line one is always like rooted in the ancestry of the past. And then line six links us to something beyond us. So it's a beautiful, it fits really beautifully. I mean the shadow of 40 is exhaustion. You know, you could kind of look at that as like, you know, the exhaustion of human vitality, just, you know, disappearing in the 37, it's the shadow of weakness.
Starting point is 03:27:48 So you could look at that. If you look at it at a broad level, it's like the weakening of the immune system that just draws all our energy away. This was a time in which a higher frequency was kind of landed that had a deeper effect on the human family, on all families, on maybe brought us all together in some way. So hope, six lines also, carry kind of faith, hope, they carry that sort of for the future. Here's something, you know, and it did like is we're still like pretty accurate. Yeah. So it's kind of nice to look at those things.
Starting point is 03:28:27 I don't often do, but... And you can go and look at other aspects of Gene Keys as well, because you can look at other planetary positions and things and pull out more information. Are you ever surprised by what comes up through the keys? Yeah, I mean, I'm wonderfully surprised. Like seeing your one line one, I was like, if I were going to say Rick's got anything,
Starting point is 03:28:48 I'd be like, yeah. I would never believe it would be possible. No. The foundation of creativity is definitely what lies in your heart. Yeah. Wow. Your soul's purpose. you

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