Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Trent Reznor

Episode Date: June 14, 2023

Trent Reznor is a musician, songwriter, and composer. As the creative force behind Nine Inch Nails, Trent has continuously pushed the boundaries of music, crafting powerful and innovative music that has captivated audiences worldwide. He has also scored numerous films, winning the Academy Award for Best Original Score and a Grammy for his work on both The Social Network and Soul. ------- Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: House of Macadamias https://www.houseofmacadamias.com/tetra Get a free box of Dry Roasted Namibian Sea Salt Macadamias + 20% off Your Order With Code TETRA Use code TETRA for 20% off at checkout  ------- Leisure Craft Saunas https://leisurecraft.com/

Tetragramaton. So it's interesting last time that we were together for my birthday. It was 30 years ago. You mentioned her. Yeah, and I was turning 30. And I could do anything I want for my 30th birthday. And I was working on chili peppers album at the time. And Anthony said, I'll go with you wherever you want to go.

And I said, well, mention else in my favorite band, let's go hang out with Trent. And we came to New Orleans. The only time I've ever been in New Orleans was to visit you there. And you had a studio in a, was it a mortuary? It had been a funeral home in years past. Not chosen for that reason.

It just happened. Yeah, just a lucky coincidence. That's crazy 30 years ago. Yeah, how long have you been in New Orleans for? I moved to New Orleans 91, I believe. I'd been living in Cleveland. And Cleveland was about an hour and 45 minutes from where I grew up.

And it kind of was the city with the strongest magnetic pole nearby. And that's where the band launched out of and I had an opportunity to work in studios and kind of hone. It was a place you wanted to escape from. And I'd come up with a plan to, early 20s realizing, I know what I want to do, but I don't know how to get to where I want to be. Cleveland served its purpose for five, six, seven, eight years I was there. And when the band got signed, we started touring, we toured for pretty much a solid year and a half from beginning of 90 to fall of 91. At some point I came back to Cleveland and it was winter and depressing and the front door of the

apartment was open when I pulled up and bad sign. It felt like the city, I think I was hoping for some sort of heroes return, which it wasn't, it was the opposite of that. And I thought, you know, fuck this. And I'd just seen the country for the first time ever. And New Orleans seems like such a weird and foreign place to what I'd grown up with just through tradition, tradition or it looked everything hard to picture. Just on tour, going through town and just saying, what in the world kind of place is this? And I didn't have any home right at that point.

So I just drove to New Orleans and found an apartment and enjoying living there and stay there for 13 years, I think. And did you move to Cleveland from Pennsylvania for like a step up? It was like moving to a bigger, bigger community? What was the thing? Where I grew up is a little town called Mercer. It was about an hour north of Pittsburgh. And it was, you know, there was one school. That's where I went. the school, two traffic lights

in Amish Dutch country, you know, remote. And what it kind of ingrained in you was a sense that you belong here and you're not going to get out of here. You know, not fully defeas, but you could see your path ahead of you. You could see what 10 years from now look like when you're in high school. You know, the signs of giving up and resignation and a job that wasn't really what you wanted in a mortgage and that's what everyone was. That's what my family didn't have. We didn't have any money. Your other sisters. My family didn't have, we didn't have any money. Your other sisters? I have one sister that's five years younger than me.

And when I was five, my parents split up. And for whatever reason, I went with my mom's parents. So I was raised with my grandparents. My sister, who was just born, was with my mom. My dad was out of the picture. just born was with my mom. My dad was out of the picture. And you know, this is a town where you could drive from one side of the town to the other in five minutes. So we'd see each other, but I was with grandparents. And I think some, I mean, as I've looked back at that time, it wasn't unhappy, but it infused in me something that said, you're not really good enough, you know,

and you don't really fit in. And that's, I fight that as I've matured into something else, that feels much more confident in a lot of ways. At my core, there's a voice in there that's saying that. I felt it walking in here. Wow, amazing. And it's not from being loved during a shit like that. It's just, you think it's the place or the nature of what happened with your parents to analyze where it's coming from.

There's probably some abandonment issues in there. There's a sense of if you wanna get somewhere, you have to figure out how to do it yourself and get there self-reliant sign, would imagine. My grandfather, who I love more than anybody in the world, who lived to be 99. Great, great person. But also was a very conservative in terms of not his worldview of his life actions. Take the safe route, provide, don't take the risky job, frugal, but what happy? Do you feel like he was afraid or just content? I didn't sense fear from him, you know. I mean, probably content. Like there was an interesting

thing that happened years later. Now, I'm living in New Orleans. I'm in a nice house in the Garden District, and the ridiculous community of the Garden District has an event once a year where they don't know if it's a fundraiser or what it is, but somebody's house gets chosen and then all the kind of old money ridiculous characters that live in the garden district come by. So, good friend of mine, it's like a mother figure of mine down there, was connected in the town, and hey, we're gonna, what do we do at your house? And let's just do it up, you know.

And so we did, and I invited my grandfather to come down, and I got to see a side of him I hadn't seen before, which was like, turn out, I don't know what would it. That's something I kind of people, wow, I fit in. I said, look, fuck those people. It's our party. I brought him down, we got him a tuxedo, felt confident. Of course, he was the life of the party.

I had a good time, But witnessing that made me think about that transferred into me in some fashion. So when I'm hearing this, like, he saw himself as an outsider in some way. I think so. But I never saw that in him going up, you know. But as I've wondered where some of this comes from, I would imagine some of that that transferred

But to get your point Cleveland I Wondupin Cleveland because No one in my family is ever gonna college and By the time I Was smart in school, but I kind of lost interest in that I was more interested in I was smart in school, but I kind of lost interest in that. I was more interested in Point music and trying to figure out how to express myself and I knew what I wanted to do I wanted to be in a band and I wanted to be on stage and But there was no

There's no clear path of how one would attain that there's no one you knew you didn't know anybody that ever had made got on the other side of the TV set So I went to college for a year, kind of close to bind where I lived, for computer engineering because I'm good at math and I thought, well maybe I can design recording consoles or some fucking thing that, you know, of course I don't want to really do that. And I thought while I was in school, you know, I was around people that really loved to do calculus all day, you know, and we're into it. And I could while I was in school, you know, I was around people that really loved to do calculus all day You know, and we're into it and I could do it, but I don't love to do it And I thought you know, I need to really kind of figure out I need to actually try I need to

When I'm 30 I want to at least say I gave it my best shot and then I know, you know And anyway that led me on a path that I wound up in Cleveland, because it was kind of a from my limited experience in the world. It felt fertile, and there was some people doing some interesting things, and it was clubs to play in, and there was original bands performing, and felt like something, you know. And it was easy to get to and I wound up sucked into that scene and that's how I wound up there. Do you remember what the music was that you were listening to back when you were at home with your grandparents?

What was the music that made you wanna make music? Yeah. I think when I was five, my grandma kind of made me take piano lessons, you know, I kind of shitty upright piano that. And it didn't take long before I could tell I was good at playing piano. And I could, it triggered something in me where I felt connected. I felt like I felt a sense of worth from being able to play well. And within a few years,

let's say by the time I was 10 or so, 11, my piano teacher I was studying with just down the street, you know, was, you might wanna consider getting tutored and considering becoming a concert pianist, which would mean a lot more practicing and dropping out of school, perhaps, if you want to take this series, I think you have what it takes to,

and that didn't sound like it was any fun. Because around that sound, it was probably a little bit older. It was, girls were becoming interesting. And the record in particular that the band, Kiss, seemed like too good to be true. It was exciting. It was taboo. It felt larger than life. I felt I didn't know you could do that. You know, it felt like you might get in trouble if you had the hotter than hell album. You know, everything about you like 14, 13, like I must have been it's about puberty since 13ish right right in that range. It just clicked that I want to be in a band. I want to do that.

And I couldn't get enough music. It's strange to think about how we consume music back then. The choices that one made. I've got, I'm able to have these physical records, which is how I'm going to hear music other than FM radio, that I'm gonna tape on my cassette tape player. And the choice is one made. And at a life changing experience, National Record March was the store in the mall

that was 15 minutes away from where I grew up. I'd love to just go and remember walking in there and hearing something that was like, what is this? And it was, for example, a Sheikier booty album that come out, filled with profanity. And they'd put the cover of the album they're playing up on the counter when they're playing it. And it just felt like, I don't understand what I'm hearing,

but wow, man. If I could just get that out, but it was a double album. The joy of discovery, the joy of commitment, bringing something home and then spending time with it, thinking about it, not being overwhelmed with content or information. I didn't know what most of the artists look like that I even liked, but I knew the inside liner notes

where I knew if someone wrote something etched on the vinyl, that canvas of enjoying art, I miss. They had a big impact on me, because it was me too. That's all we had was that narrow little sliver. And just these little bits of information is all we had to go on. But it was enough. And I have the hotter than hell album, but my friend has Destroyer.

And let's swap. And all that stuff. I look back fondly at that era of appreciation and how much it shaped me. Getting stuck with an album or Columbia record club Too good to be true 13 albums for you know never mind you're gonna pay twice the price for if you forget to send the card back in You know which I did but I remember getting Billy Joel album and I didn't want you know 52nd Street But I listened to the shit out of it because I'd paid full price for it and

I liked it, you know, I drilled it into my head Probably made you better songwriter. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, there's some Barry Manelos in there along the way all kinds of things that I think in today's era of painting skip you know or shuffle you miss that learning curve. You know, a lot of my favorite albums, I didn't understand at first. I don't know if I would spend the time now, you know, and would you play along, like if you heard something you liked, would you play along on the piano, learning the songs? Yeah, my dilemma at the time was, I was a keyboard player.

I was always, I never studied how to play guitar, and my brain doesn't work that way. I need linear mixed sense, but you know, frets, or it's another dimension that doesn't point resonate. And, you know, I played saxophone, and I played piano. And I didn't have access to synthesizer yet, but the idea of electronics was exciting to me. And I think that what my dad came back into my life

around this time. And he had played in country rock bands. And that was always something that was exciting to me. I think it would go to band practice once a while and watch what they're up to. What did he play in the band? He played fiddle and guitar. What was it like when he came back? Well, he never really left, but his role in my life changed. And I can't say it wasn't fatherly as much as it was kind of uncle kind of big brother. He was young when he had me. He was 17 when I was born. You know, when we are good friends today, I mean, he's provided that catalyst thing that shifted my trajectory over the years, but

He bought me electric piano a worlditzer So that often with a distortion pedal an MXR distortion and a phase shifter. That was my That was my rate, yeah, but I noticed if you played fourths and seven put a fuzz pedal on it sounded you know It's not kind of tough, you know, it had that energy to it. I was more excited about rock music than, than say, super trim, which I also did like, and do like. But I was fascinated with electronics and, and when a band like the cars came along, that I thought married clever, great songwriting with interesting use of keyboards that I hadn't heard before, not just in a plain-a-pad bind, shit, faking strings, but as it lead instruments sometimes and part of a puzzle of arrangement, I thought was really exciting. That led to while in high school getting a great present of a cheap mobs synthesizer.

And then I knew what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to make music that could have the aggression that I liked of rock music but incorporated in electronics somehow. I think a little bit later, huge thing happened when I went to college. I was only 45 minutes away from where I grew up, but there's a college radio station there. And it was right at 1983, you know, when if you liked electronic music,

when if you liked electronic music, synth pop had exploded, you know, there's a hundred bands I've never heard of before. Like, Depeche Mode and... Depeche Mode to XTC to Heaven 17. Just a lot of shit that was... Lock of Seagulls, all that stuff. That ranged from corny and poppy to the world of literate college radio, you know, beard scratching type, you know, you know, I mean, and I just felt like I couldn't, it was almost too much to take in, you know, going from a 25 record collection to him and your mind blown by all this music.

And I got sucked into playing in a band in college where I was just the keyboard player that could sing some stuff and some of this is strange to I feel defensive even saying this but in that world if you were in a band you played cover songs and you played in places you know, so we played cover songs and it was honing chops, but it wasn't songwriting. Yeah, but you can get good playing playing cover songs. Certainly learned a lot and, you know, absolutely. Unfortunately, some people did have video cameras back then. that. But anyway, it got me to a point over the next few years where now I'm about 22-ish.

I'm living in Cleveland. I'm working in a shop that sells synthesizers and drum machines, hearing people make noise on that shit all day and then go home and trying to get excited about. make noise on that shit all day and then go at home and trying to get excited about One up getting a job in a recording studio from a guy that I was selling gear to and then store And it was just a rinky dink three-person operation and The deal was I could stay up all night if I wanted to after they were done and kind of learn how things work or work on demos as long as I'd do anything else. So I was an expert at wiping pee off the toilet and see waxing floors.

And again, if you didn't want to do it, I'm the guy. But I had kind of mythologized prints at that time, then was heavily into 1999, era, kind of, purport reign was coming out or had come out. And at that time, he was playing mostly everything himself, yes. Yeah. And it instilled in me a sense of one of the things I marveled at with him was how realized he seemed as an artist. I could identify a song of his by guitar playing or the vocal or the drum program. You know, it kind of felt like it may not be virtuosity and all those things, but it was in point of view.

And around that same time, I was being, I was realizing I'm wasting my time playing in other people's bands because what I'm really doing is trying to appear busy, recurring theme in my life, avoiding something that's scary, because I'm afraid. And what I was afraid of then was finding out that I don't have anything to say. Like, I know if I like something, I don't like something, but something my piano teacher told me, you know, that haunted me in a way, because I hadn't really thought about it. It was, you know, great. A great performer doesn't mean a great artist, great, a great executor doesn't mean a great composer, you know, and it's obvious, but I hadn't really thought of it that way.

And part of me was thinking, what if I find out I'm a shitty writer, you know? And I thought at the time, if I do find that out, then maybe my lot is to be an executor, you know, maybe I'm a performer and interpreter, maybe I'm, I don't know, but I didn't want to find that out. So a way of not finding that out was not finding out, you know, just avoiding it by feeling busy. Anyway, I started to think I could recognize I was doing that and thought I'm working at the studio. I have this opportunity. I've got a 24 track tape machine, vague idea of how it works. There's a room full of keyboards here and I can't find anybody really that I can't find that you two other three people that become the puzzle, you know, the chili peppers, the brawling stones, which I wanted

because it would also made it easier, I thought. And it would have felt like I found a club finally that I can't be able to find and I couldn't find anybody. And I thought, well, Prince can do it. Fucking, I'll try to do it. And through trial and error, it started to take shape into something that felt like it revealed what it was I had to say. Welcome to the House of Macadamias. Macadamias are a delicious superfood. Sustainably sourced directly from farmers.

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I roasted with Namibian sea salt, cracked black pepper, and chocolate dipped. Snack bars come in chocolate. Coconut white chocolate and blueberry white chocolates. Visit houseofnacademius.com slash tetra. How long did it take before you started feeling like this is something? Or did you ever feel that? The first things I tried writing were shitty. And they were shitty because I was posturing.

I wasn't being honest with myself. I was trying to play a role and I was put up a shield and I'm going to write political clash like songs. So I like the clash. I don't really have anything to say or even care that much about, you know, deeply on an experiential level. And obviously it sounded like that. No one heard these things, but I knew. And I think a really pivotal thing happened where I am in Cleveland. I was playing in a band called exotic birds. It's all original material. I didn't write any of it.

And it was, I thought it wasn't bad at the time. But I was getting frustrated with just the band. And it wasn't what I wanted to do really. And I was, I've got to do my own thing. And when I said that, the manager of the band at the time, had become a friend, John Mall, he said, I'm also going to tap out because I'm for whatever his reasons were, felt like it ran its course. And he said, just please keep me in touch with what you're up to because, you know, I think you have talent. And as I was working on these songs in the studio at night, and I had Chris Frennana who was my good friend, right hand man drummer, confident. We weren't sitting jamming together of creating music but it could be,

does this suck? No, it doesn't suck. That's all I needed. Or kind of sucks. Friend with taste that you thought was at least, yes, give you some barometer. kept me sane, and was a good friend, and did have good taste. It was his insistence of, I remember when Dallas Solves, three feet high and Ryzen came up.

He was working in a record shop, and he brought it home, because he'd get promos of everything, and we put it on. And we're looking at you like What the fuck is this Is this this could be the worst thing I've ever this they can't do that can I what's that a fucking You know that French demo of some sort there, you know, you're not allowed to do that you know it puzzled me in a way that was

But it was him saying, you know what, I listen that record again without you, man. I'm gonna put it on, we gotta listen to that again. You know, and I realized, you're right, man, that I didn't understand it. You know, we didn't have any context for it. That's the beauty of the early hip-hop stuff. It really did come from outer space.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you can't do that. You know? Anyway, sitting at studio, there was another thing going on with me, which was, um, just felt sad. I think it had been a theme in my life, but somehow I've been coming to the forefront of like, I feel, I feel sad. I got to get this out somehow.

And I'd realize I've been writing kind of journals, you know, not as lyrics, just not so that someone's going to find them. I don't know why I was doing it. I just, and then as I looked at them, I realized they are lyrics. But I could never play that for somebody. Because that wasn't a character. That wasn't, that was really personal. Yeah, I was, you know.

I thought as an experiment, let me see where it goes. And I remember something I could never have as one of those songs. And I don't even know if I let Chris in there when I was singing that one. But I had goosebumps when I was working on it. And it got to a point where that and a couple other songs that were in that realm of, I think these are really powerful. But I can't let anyone hear them, you know, because they feel too intimate. Yeah, it's so vulnerable. And I gave him the John, and then I'm like, okay, see, like I had to leave. And he immediately got back to me. It's like,

this is power here. This is, this this is this is it, you know, whatever you're tapping into that that's what that is truth to it. And no, I realize it too. And that kind of became the internal blueprint with I'll deal with the exposure at a later point, but let's just see where this leads. And that's what led to the idea of 90s and 90s and certainly the first album. And that whole time was about a year, first song to maybe 18 months, something like that, of refining things, trying to figure out what the project has to say, what my role in it, how naked am I in there. I felt like, I kind of wish I was Gene Simmons with a costume I could put on that felt like

armor that I could, you know, a mask to hide behind it. Yeah, because we're got uncomfortable then. Well, I'll jump past the point of getting a record deal and going to war with the producer I had on that album and then turning it in and having the record label say, this isn't abortion. And without, you know, I believed in it, but I have never put a record out. Of course. And was there any point during the process from the complete vulnerability and discomfort with how vulnerable it was? Yeah.

As you got deeper into making it, was there a point where you felt like not thinking about how people are going to react, not thinking about how it gets dressed up like this, but I'm on to something and this is getting good and did it get easier to do as you were doing it or no? Was it always a fight? Once that initial spark happened, I think I've cracked the code of what it is. This is kind of what it is, you know. Then it was wildly exciting because now I have an idea of the shape of the form. You're not even stabbing in the dark anymore.

Not as much. And now I can try edges and kind of see where it starts to, yeah. What feels right with this, not blueprint, but, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, sense of, I guess the second guessing got a little easier, because I thought, I'm gonna lean into this thing. And I see where it goes, and I'm gonna, I learned at that point, there's a time for being editorial later, not right now.

You know, that all felt exciting, you know, but it was always on a layer of thin ice because all of it is a construct in my head. You know, there is no audience. And there's no... It sounds coming like every week, or like how long would it be between songs at that time. That's every couple of weeks there was a new starting point.

But what I would do, unlike what I would do now, is thinking back to that first album experience, what I didn't have was someone like you in my life. And what I mean by that is a nurturing role with it, mentor, you know. Helping you, helping support you in making the best thing, you could make that was the thing that you wanted to make, the best version of it, and give you the confidence to go as deep as you could go into was the thing that you wanted to make the best version of it and give you the confidence to go as deep as you could go into whatever that thing was. That's exactly right. What I had was a version of that with John Maul, my first manager, who was not coming at this, like how can we maximize profit in audience and commercial it, nothing like that. Do what you need to do. Let's, you know, pointing out that is the shit lean into that,

fighting to try to find unsuccessfully the right home for it. But no understanding of how to go about doing anything or, you know. So, anyway, around how the songs were coming. I remember when I met you a while later, and it was tips on strategies, keep writing, write lots of songs, write stuff. And so and so has 100 songs that's always waiting. I thought hundred fucking songs. I've written 14 songs you've heard all of 12 of them in our hand. Yeah, you might have played 13 and 14 that night too. Yeah, because Yeah, maybe that's true. Yeah, and I would refine and refine and refine rather than you know what I mean. I didn't you didn't you didn't think it was obsessively concerned with any little

tweak you could do on one yeah instead of thinking well I could write five more songs and maybe one of them will be even better than this one I won't have to tweak it like you never know until you until you get all of them will be even better than this one. I won't have to tweak it. Like you never know until you get all of them out. I hadn't even thought about that. Yeah. You never know. You never know. Yeah.

Do you remember at that time was the music, the thing that led it? In other words, would you have a musical track and then see which of the diary-like words would work or did it ever start with the words? There were usually two things happening separate and then an unknown moment. I can't remember it ever being kind of a planned now's the time where I take the ideas and match them up. So you'd be writing poetry essentially and then you'd be working on instrumental tracks.

Yeah. Seeing what was exciting in the world of music. Because that was also, that was also an unknown. Yeah. I didn't know if it was, like I said, I didn't have the band that was helping to find that sound. It could be anything.

And at some point, if somewhat organically, as I recall, there would be, hey, that feels like it goes with that. And I think subconsciously, I had been thinking that, but I didn't know you were thinking about it. No, later in life now, I've done much more. The thing that feels strange to me now is not to jump ahead to the... It's fine.

Feel free to the later stage. You know, stories. I work with You know, it's a lot. I work with that, it's a lot. And a lot of what it allows me to do is there's a mode I get in where I'm not thinking. I'm in a zone and I'm I'm not being editorial consciously. I'm not analyzing what's happening.

I'm just kind of feeling where I'm at. A lot of times we'll do this with films where what I find exciting about working on film as a side job is here's a scenario that needs to feel a certain way. I like kind of inhabiting where I think that character is and it's refreshing that it's not me, it's not my voice, it's not my story and a variation of the same story or something, you know. Here's the guy over here, feels like a new

thing or a person, or whatever it might be. And just being able to kind of social network with Fincher when it was presented to us as a job with no formal training in how to score a film. I've seen a lot of films. I know I don't like the music in a lot of films and some I do and some I don't most I don't even pay attention to. I'm just kind of lost in a film. I think, you know, what I know I don't know how to do is score an eight-second scene of someone walking upstairs. I don't know, is that a chorus? You know, I mean, is that a melody going there? Should it need to be in time? Or, you know, and what was fun to do with that project having no idea how to approach it.

And here's a film that's not about vistas and battles and outer space journeys or canvases where lots of sound can sit. It's just people talking all the time, arguing. And I don't know how to, I don't know how to... Is there even room for music in there? Once you start thinking about, hey, that story could be about a guy that believes in something so much that he... It feels he's justified in doing it. It kind of fucks everybody over because he really thought it was the right thing to do and then it's kind of left feeling you won but

Did you win? I kind of know what that feels like You know what I mean like I can relate to yeah, I didn't make Facebook, but I yeah, I know Around that feeling And then trying to make music not thinking just from a place of what comes out instinctually, that's wherever it's coming from. It's a long-wind way of wanting up to say this. A lot of times what Atticus can do, particularly in the film side of it, is be the guy thinking and paying attention to what note you played and what phrase was better than what other phrase. And it allows me the freedom of getting lost in the exploration as the composer, as the

subconscious turning stuff out. Because normally what would happen is F in the world of film or even writing songs, a lot of times what I'll do is just jam with myself. Often playing something and picking up it on their instrument without stopping or taking a computer thinking I know this is going to go with thing I just did even though I'm not hearing what I just did. And we know each other enough to know now. We don't really have to talk anymore we can kind of sense where he can see me circling talk anymore. We can kind of sense, or he can

see me circling around an idea until I kind of get around it and then I'm moving on to something else. And I know he knows I'm going to, we need to put these together and try it. It's nice after doing that for anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour and a half at one chunk. To walk out of the room and sit outside for a minute or go see my kids or change the scene, come back and it's starting to, someone's already moved pieces around, you know, rather than, okay, now let me sit back down, you know, you're starting from scratch. And one could say it's the role of an editor, but it's more than that. It's a ranger, and it's also it's a collaborator in a way that goes beyond. And he's picking,

you know, he's making the choices, he's curating your performance in a way. And I'm trusting his choices because we know each other. And how do you meet him? 30 years ago, Ish, John Mom signed 12 rounds, which was his ban with his wife to nothing records of the end of that little tenure late 90s. And right when I had gotten sober and I was, the world was raw and different, you know, and a little uncomfortable initially. He and his wife came down to do something with 12 rounds and we just kind of in the studio, I felt like someone I could communicate with in a way that and also in a friendship level we had we're not from the same lifestyles, you know, but I just had a

something clicked and Anyway that led to I was gonna work on Try some non-signal stuff and had him come down as a kind of The guy sitting in front of the computer and doing essentially what he does now with me. But we just have a mutual friendship and respect. It was the first album you worked together with him on. It would have been with teeth for nine inch nails. for Nineage Nails. Remember one point, relatively early in our relationship,

we were with Zach from Rage, who'd come to work on his cello stuff with us as kind of the foils. That was a good bonding experience for us because it was a scenario of madness. In a fun to look back at way, but frustrating in the moment. Yeah.

Well, it was educational in a lot of ways. I have a lot of respect for Zach, but I could see, I could see my traits in him, where I could see it in him, and then I'd think Christ, you know, that's frustrating. But I would recognize after he left, now I'm doing the same, I'm doing my own version of that same thing, but I didn't see it as clearly, you know, fear-based. I'm saying anything dismissive of Zach, but at that time, I want to do something that doesn't sound like raging in this machine. Okay, what about this? Hmm, I can't do that because it's kind of not what I do. Okay, how about this? Well, that's like raging in this machine. Okay,

how about not that than this? Yeah, but that's not like raging in this. How about go surfing? Yeah, I know what I mean, and let's not be in joy. You know. But I saw, I did a lot of the same shit when I'm left with my own devices. Leisure craft. Builders of handmade custom sonas, hot tubs and cold plunges. Constructed from the finest quality cedar, barrel sonas are the most efficient sonas shape. Sustainable and eco-friendly, family-owned since 2004, outdoor and indoor sonnets, hot

tubs and cold plunges, solid Canadian construction built to survive outdoor weather, hot or cold. You'll feel safe with leisure crafts 5-year warranty, an investment for generations to enjoy, beautiful, timeless pieces, for better health and ultimate relaxation. Explore the entire collection at leisurecraft.com So the first album you say it takes about a year, maybe a little more to make? I think it was being made while I'm figuring out how to engineer and put pieces together. So there's an I have a tea, you know, the tape's almost worn out by the time the song feels like it's finessed to the point. And endless amounts of tweaking and revising, not knowing any better. That gets to a point where I've got 10 songs I'm going to be on the album.

We now have a record deal with TVT. Who do you want to produce it? In my mind, producer, that's going to be what you end up being. You know, cerebral, thoughtful, task master in a good way. You know what I mean? Someone taking charge, a sounding board, helping you articulate what you're trying to say. And maybe nudging you into a place way better than you ever could have gotten You know, that's what I'm thinking, you know, that's what I'm looking for You know, I've seen names on albums and I those albums I kind of like and that name's been on a few of them Was it them? You know, I mean, I don't know anybody. I'm in the first one

so I'd made a list of some people that, Flood was one of those names. John Friar was a name on there. They did a lot of 4-A-D records. I had a spooky reverb-y sound. And it wound up being that Flood only had time to do two songs, but he could do two tracks. So I was going to go up to for whatever reason, the car studio in Boston, and then right from there,

fly to London to spend the next 20 days with John Friar in his studio and finish the album. So when you say finished the album, was this using the tracks that you had already recorded? Yeah, starting from scratch. I've got my tapes We're gonna do whatever we can and mix two days of song That's what would you say was mainly done during that period of time? Was it more vocals or? Well, here's what was interesting. We go to the car studio synchrosam with flood I meet him for the first time. I discovered him through to Peshmo and Night's Rob. He is very cerebral, not as mentory, not as artistic. I'm just

being honest as you, an engineer that has learned about arrangement, is tasteful. We're talking a lot about synth programming. He's excited about how I got that sound and wants to, but at the same token can sit down. We did head like a hole in terrible eye with him and sits down and says to start with bow down before that's got to go right at the beginning and that's the chorus. That's not the chorus, that's a fact. Try it. You know, and immediately it's like a chorus. I've heard that 200,000 times. You never dawned on me that that's hooky, you know. So right off the bat was like, I went into these sessions, like, I'm here to learn. I'm open to any idea.

But I know what I walk out of here at the end of the day is what might be what I'm wind up with. So I'm going to get firm if I need to. And with what you have to love it, this is your record. Yeah. I have gone this far for it to take a shit. It didn't finish a lot. Of course.

And this, you know, this was, you literally have two days of track. That's all there is money for. It's 45 grand. That's your budget. So we do these two songs and I leave with them sounding a bit different than I'm used to hearing had like a whole particularly. But, okay, wow. Did you like it? I did like it. And it was different, but it was, I knew it was right.

You know, the end of that story is we went back and mixed, had like a whole, it just got a different mix, but not a different arrangement. It was just the mix we did needed something. It was a little sterile. But then I went to London and I didn't get that same feeling, you know, and I'm in London for the first time, I'm across the ocean for the first time, I'm by myself. I'm trying to pretend I'm not freaked out. And I show up and I immediately realize I don't have any chemistry with the person I'm working with.

And it's a much more of carefree. Now let's just see what happens, you know, while smoking a joint, but put some sounds up and just put some noise in and Okay, you know, it was about halfway through the second day when uncomfortably I have to say listen, I have to love what leaves here, you know, I don't, this might be it and you're gonna do another record next week, I'm not, I don't this might be it and you're gonna do new another record next week. I'm not I don't think it should have reverb on that thing Well, I think it's the best thing in a song. Fuck you If it's gonna escalate to that level of just turn it down or I'll turn it down myself We get confidence to do it. It's great that you did and thank because I I thought this is my only shot. Yeah

I believe in this album. Yes. I've instinctually got to the ship this far. Can it be better? Yes. Let's find out. I can't make it better. Of course.

But let's see. But when I knew this isn't better. Yeah. And it also felt wrapped up in, I don't respect your process for me. I don't believe we're having a fundamental difference in artistic vision. I think you're being lazy. And I think you don't give a fuck. And now I don't trust what you're saying. So that kind of set the tone for that two weeks. And we didn't get it. And you kept working together after that. I didn't have a choice. Right. Because I'd just

talk the record label into me using this producer that wasn't the guy that did Fonion Cannibals or whoever's at the top of the charts that week. So I look like, I don't know what's going to happen. So we get it done. And the majority of the record is what we mix there. We get back, I turn the record in. Now I'm shaking a little bit because of the process. I don't even- If what you say it was, then what you showed up with? Marginal.

Marginal. Reverbie. The mixes are different because he could mix and I'm Yeah, I had my own thing but it wasn't I wouldn't say it's So his sound more finished, but it didn't sound finished in the way that you would have liked it to be finished I think in my mind I imagined the transformation that took place with head like a hole. Yeah, some structural change There was an outside opinion. Yeah opinion that clearly was the right.

It made it better. You know, it wasn't, there's a little more sizzle on the high hat, it gives a fuck, you know, with subtle. The mixing changes were basically, I had done the work, just put the faders up, he added the vocals level sound more pro than what I'd done. You know, he knew how to use a compressor, but other than I did, you know, I'm not being disparaging to his mixes. They were better than my mixes, but they didn't. We got into a tone where it became, okay, what do you want to do? Yeah. I'm going to re-sing that voice, you mix and

don't put too much reverb on that, but see if you can get the drums to sound better. Okay, that's kind of what it turned into, rather than let's see what we can come up with. I didn't want it to be that way, but... No, I understand. The alternative was... I have a lot of you for making it happen. I didn't feel like I had a choice, you know, because I knew that could be it. Yeah.

And if it is it, then I don't want to feel like, well, it could have been better, but, you know, I'll never see this guy again, which I haven't. You know, anyway, we get back, I get back. I probably spent $5,000 in long distance phone calls to my manager, saying, crying. Man, this is not what I've hoped it was going to be. Anyway, filled with a little doubt now, back in the States, back home, turned the record in. with a little doubt now back in the States, back home, turn the record in, don't hear anything for two weeks. Then I'm clear as they I remember for some reason I was back in my bedroom, I grew up in my

grandparents' house, landline, and getting the call like like a Friday night. Because I remember it was an odd time. I don't know why I was there, but I'm on the phone with Steve Gottlieb minutes. I just got to tell you, Trent. I think the record's an abortion. I'm not exaggerating. I think you fucked your career up before it even started. Okay.

This could have been a hit record, but instead you could try to make it fucking weird and, you know, you've submerged in each hand so this could have been played on the radio and I really don't know what to do and tell you. Okay. Well, I disagree with you. Well, and that was the, that was the kind of crux of the thing. And then some pretty sad conversations with my manager at the time, but it was, you know, what? Fuck that dude. We've assessed what happened in the mixes, and it isn't bad.

It's better than it was as demos. It's not some imagined thing that could have been. It's what it is, and it is fucking good. So we ask, I think, for another five grand to see if we could mix had like a whole with a different, a little more exciting mix and something else we mixed in. Not reinvented, but mixed. And they agreed to put the record out.

And that was kind of how the whole process started. And jumping ahead, paraphrasing what happened after that. Our approach was, we just want to work and try to get the word out. Because we think it's a great record. Some decisions were made about how to present the ban live and how to what recipe to put together that I think were wise decisions that made in terms of how it felt when you saw it, how you're going to play it, pull it off. Tell me about those, tell me about those decisions. This record did not come about with people workshopping it and then recording it. You know, it was

the opposite of that. It was workshopped with the instrument being the studio, trying to figure out what is it I have to say if anything and how to how to emotionally convey it. Learning with the tools I had at minus disposal, which wasn't a great live drummer. It was machines and that stuff. So then I've got a record where one song is eight guitars and a drum machine. The next song is no guitars and 15 keyboards, and the next song is whatever it is. Who do I put on stage to, what does that look like from the audience? And I just told the story the other day because I did a thing for retrospective on Lollapalooza.

And it reminded me of something that was, for me, a pretty pivotal thing, which was when I was working on a pretty eight machine. And I may have fucked up the timeline here, but before nightish nails is out playing live, and I'm trying to think about how to make it work in my mind. What I don't want to do is have someone fake and play drum, stand it up, hit in a pad. I don't want to do that. I want it to feel visceral. I want it to feel like it can fuck up if it needs to. It can have some

volatility to it. Jane's addiction puts out nothing shocking. I had not heard the triple X record before that. Chris Frenner brings that record home and right after Dela Sol, let's check this out. I don't know. Kind of retro, kind of fucking weird, kind of cool. Kind of, I'm not sure. It was in that phase of the first exposure, right? Sounds weird, you know, but sounds cool,

but is it cool or Sounds weird, you know, but sounds cool, but is it is it cool? There's it, you know, now also, as I recall, they're on Warner Brothers and Warner Brothers is really pushing the shit out of this band. And I was the opposite of what we had, right? And they're going to be playing at the club downtown Cleveland, P-Botties Down down under and it's subsidized by the record labels. It's only five bucks to go see him. Mother fucker. You know, I'm jealous of that. You know, all right, let's go see him.

And it was at that perfect time where we heard the record and handful of times enough that we're familiar with it. Don't quite get it. Not an in-avent guard, I don't understand it way. Just a much. I don't know yet. It reminds me of something that you told me. I don't get to in a second.

Standing in the middle of the floor, this club, they come out. It was so fucking good. I mean, it sounded great. They looked like freaks. Perry was hypnotic and in a weird trance. And a, God, damn, you know, I look at Chris and he's looking at me like, defeated in a good way.

And I'm like, just utterly inspired. Inspired in a, all right. I'm coming at it with a little competitive like you know and it's okay That's where the bar is in terms of we have to be able to make an audience do that Not with the same rules and levers, but it has to feel as vibrant and as dangerous and as Volatile and beautiful as that. It can't be of fucking tape playing back. It has to have that thing that makes it, you know.

And that became a kind of thing we thought about quite a bit in terms of, I say me, Chris and I, figuring out how to pull it off. And the decision was made to have a drummer playing real drums and have a guitar player, but keep that aspect of the sound that we like, which is the mechanized sequence, rigidness, the purposely non-human bit of it. And the easiest way to do that would just be to put it on a track of tape. So it's two things that can break the tape or the tape machine.

It's not a computer and a fucking bullshit, right? Drummer has a click. There's a playback track of sequence live band. Let's try it. And that recipe, I thought worked really well. What was on the tracks versus what was played live? Was there any redundancy or no? Usually it would be, you know, head like a whole, da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da You know when you see the hip hop act at the awards show, and there's a 60 piece fucking band

with a horn section and live drums, and it sounds like shit, because it's not the loop. It's not gritty, it feels pro, and it feels stupid, you know. We didn't want that feeling. I remember seeing Howard Jones or something that did the same thing where it's like,

here's a track that sounds cool, because it's three synths playing. But now you've got World's Greatest Session drummer and background singers down the city and it says not what the song is. The choice of having machines on the record is because I like the way the machines sound. Part of it was I didn't have people, but it became the machine. It gave the music a personality that was different than if it was people playing. And if that has that rigid 16th note thing, I'd make sure what's around it is in conflict with that or interacting with that.

It's intentional. There also wasn't anyone else making alternative rock music in that way? If you think about it, wasn't like the music that was being made, nobody was making it like you were. The people who were making music like you were were prince and the depeche modes of the world, but they weren't competing with Jane's addiction. It was a different thing. And from what the stuff I was listening to,

aside from those, the more heavier electronic stuff, where you could pick up the inspirations and the lifts. They weren't writing songs, you know, they were doing a thing. It wasn't about not being a song. So all those Billy Joel albums and shit, they worked their way in out of the years. Anyway, the band turned out the way it did and what I found as we started playing live was to my amazement, the songs could adapt into a... they got more visceral, they got angrier generally. Some of the arrangements on the album listening back after playing for a few months felt.

And I wish I would have had the band play before we did the record because it would have sounded differently. It was an incredible live. I saw you at that point in time and it was incredible. It was fun. And it felt like... It felt real. It felt like I could think through the recipe to set it up, but it had its own validity.

You know, it felt like the right thing at the right time and it also had a, in terms of stage craft, there was production as well that didn't feel like the Howard Jones example. In some ways, I remember the first time I saw you when you got big-time production and I felt like what kind of missed the DIY version because the DIY version was so radical. We shooting like I mean it looked like fire extinguishers

or like what I don't know like it was whatever it was it didn't look like normal special effects at a concert it all just seemed completely out of control broken stuff and it was wild and great to watch like it might be bad for you yeah it felt like that. It was certainly bad for you. Yeah, exactly. It was it was fun. It didn't feel like it took on a life of its own that it was a pleasant surprise. It was pleasant to see the songs adapt and get a little more muscular and also strange and exciting to see them transform into things people are screaming back at me. I know it means something to them. That was one of the coolest things I've seen, you know, being somewhere you've never been before. I never went anywhere, being Tulsa.

There was some big dude, you know, I don't know what it means to him, but it authentically is touched and herb there, you know, just like music has done for me my whole life. Anyway, with the, what wound up being during the course of Pretty Hate Machine Touring, almost two years of circling the country in the world a couple times. It felt like we'd bludgeoned it into people. We'd found an audience by presenting it to people in a way that could make its own case, didn't rely on a marketing of the record label. And I'd hoped at the time that not to rub it in their face, but just like, look, it did work. Can we move on, but it turned out to be the opposite of that, you know? Oh, it did work.

Now we can let's put a zero at the end of that next time. Now let's start talking about who your new producer is, you know. That's when you came into my life. or is. You know, that's when you came into my life. And well, you were in my life, but that's when it was time to, I can't risk trying to keep this from fucking up again, you know, going through that process. But anyway, it resolved itself. But I think the lesson, the main lessons learned from that whole, my whole career was just standing up for what you have to say and expressing yourself in a way that feels authentic. I can say completely these days, if you like what we did, what I've done, it's what I want it to be. It was the best thing it could be in the various incarnations and whims I've been on.

It's never felt compromised by anyone's hand or my own taste at the time. I worked with a couple people who will remain nameless and I'm sure you have two. Glad we did this record. I finally have something I feel proud of Are you not proud of? You know, I mean like Not to sell like an household, but I've never put out something. I didn't think was the best thing I could do Why would I think it's worth wasting anyone's time or investing anyone's time on? So how did the second

album differ from the first album experience based on the experience, based on the success what changed? Yeah, lots changed. And you know, toward forever on the first record, towards the end of that tour, it was bittersweet because it felt like the battle that's raging on the record label front could be a terminal one. I made a stance that I'm not going to record another record for TVT. I'm just not going to do it. And it wasn't out of greed. It felt they were activated now and excited about.

Now we're really going to get successful. So I couldn't have a partner that I felt was actively trying to do the opposite of what I'm trying to do. And integrity mattered a lot in that era and where things showed up and how it was shoved down your throat, mattered, you know, I think it still does, but in a different way, you know. And I didn't want to risk the idea of 90's nails becoming something that was disingenuous because it was shoved out in the world in the wrong way. That makes any sense. And

recorded the second thing the EP broken, which was really just a reactive. How can I make the angriest thing I could possibly make, right? And how can I take the aggression that's missing from the first album that was hardest in a live environment, turning into something that's a statement, that's concise and just a thing, and worked on that with flood again, and we kind of did it without TBT's knowledge. And in the meantime, Jimmy Iving manipulated his way into the situation.

Now you're on inner scope. Who's inner scope? Yeah. I was mad. I wanted to be with you. And I was a real asshole to Jimmy initially, because I felt like all I want to do is be, just leave me alone so I can make me, you know what I mean?

Of course. I don't want to be fucked with. You know, we did. I felt like every conversation we had back then, it was almost never about music. It was always just about this situation. This situation, and it really was the bane of your existence. Yeah, it's strange now to even think about it,

because at the time, it was... I know. ...monopolizing, you know, and it felt very Omnipresent a Spector over everything like the any minute plug is gonna get pulled and it was all a dream and you know but To Jimmy's credit Much to my surprise He became a great partner

What you want I what I'd like to do is deliver you an album with the artwork finalized and you give me some money to make it. That's what I want. Okay, what else you want? And I want I want a label I could sign some other acts. Okay, what else? I can't think of anything else, you know, just for real? Okay. And meanwhile, I had kind of come up with an elaborate plan for a record about a thing with an arc and a kind of storyline to it. And I had a ridiculous kind of flowchard of, here the medically things I'm going to discuss on the album not songs the album Here's where it's gonna go the trajectory of the kind of character Here's musical things I want to touch on not from stuff of red you say would you call it a concept album? Yeah, I mean I wasn't using that language myself you say, would you call it a concept album? Yeah.

I mean, I wasn't using that language myself, just think about it. And I thought, I'm gonna make this thing and it's gonna tell this story loosely and it's going to touch on these themes and it's gonna have this and it's gonna have that and here's musical things I wanna be influenced by. And okay, now, let me start writing all this stuff.

And I had a little money to set up I want to be influenced by and okay now let me start writing all this stuff and I Have a little money to set up to get an actually good quality samplers and some stuff that was inspiring and Talked to flood about working together again and Thought Let's set up in a house and do the whole romantic thing probably from you, you know Let's let's make it not feel like you're the record plant fucking around, but let's in an environment and Then I'm sitting with that notebook and living in a house with gear in it Chris ran in the guest house and ideas feel fertile and there's lots of words coming

and there's lots of musical ideas coming and it felt like it's hard to even keep up with what's happening but what isn't coming is the added pressure, the pressure may not be the right word, the added desire to funnel all that into this equation I've written out of. Here's a cool song that feels exciting. Something needs to sit in that second slot where it's more up-tempo, you know, but the words that are fitting with it aren't, it felt like it's trying to serve too many masters and starting to get... It's starting to step on unbridled inspiration and stinked, you know, because I'm trying to place it in this grid that seemed too complex. So, a few months into it, I thought, I don't fuck that whole idea. I'm just going to make songs if it sounded to me. And exciting. And again, it never felt ominous or unfun.

It felt like I'm got a new laboratory and it's exciting. And I have this new specter. There's an audience now. I know you know this feeling well with various artists, where first album No audience no expectation, you know other than your own and maybe your labels now More people than I ever thought no 90 sales and like 90's nails, you know, then there's times when it creeps in your mind

What do they like about you know? Are am I gonna serve another helping of that up? Or is this two, am I getting away from whatever, you know, is ACDC making a disco album? You know, because they think it's cool. You know what I mean? It wasn't overwhelming, as I remember at the time, because I'd just done that broken EP, which was a kind of, it's not pretty machine. but it's just an EP. And there might still be hope. He was incredible. I remember I loved it.

It was a new thing that could haunt your late nights, you know. Absolutely. Anyway, back to the story. When I, after I'd abandoned the idea of a concept album and then just let things go for a while. A few months later, as I'm kind of looking at what's landing, I realize it all fits into that grid. Almost exactly when you weren't trying to get it in. I wasn't conscious even thinking about it, you know, but I think of that master timeline song thing, two things moved and everything sat right where it was supposed to, you know, and then

I realized, I need one song now, and that kind of works with these lyrics I had over there. That was a weird, interesting thing. I think the rate of piffin-y, it's like, oh, it really, it works. Yeah, not forcing. The thing you abandoned because it wasn't working, was there all along. That's what I think about sometimes when I, I guess I've got an older one I mentioned being able to be in

subconscious mode, whatever that is. It feels like a real scene change to then say, okay, now I'm not that guy right now. Now I've got to be the guy that has to forensically kind of range and make decisions and I'm leaning into it more of that role that I use. And there are two different aspects of yourself. One is the free creative spirit who's working on instinct and subconscious energy. And the other is the person who comes in after who's more like the professional is like,

okay, this part's really good, this is really good, this works with this. And it's a whole different head. Yeah. But we have them both, you know, we can do both of those things. Yeah. I think what I used to flip between them, I don't remember it being quite so. Yeah. I wasn't so conscious of the shift. Yeah. Now it's more of a, I'd rather not shift into that. You know, I'd rather stay and it's this guy for a while. But at that time, on, on Downward Spiral, it was, it all felt like it came together. You know, and I do remember turning that record

into Jimmy with, he said, I could do what I want. Sorry, man. And it wasn't to spite anybody. It was just like, this is what I feel like I need to do. And I don't think there's any singles here, you know, but he's like, well, you've been wrong before. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a, that was a life-changing thing to have that record come out and strangely resonated as much as it did. And I listened to it now. that's a fucking weird sounding album. It still is. It's still is. It's great. It's so great. It's so personal and so different than everything else. And it's raw. I appreciate that. I think we skipped the part of the story where you came up with the name of the band. Yeah, there's nothing that's spectacular about that, really.

It's pretty unsexy, actually. It really is just kind of grinding on, putting things in a list that come from a unknown place and looking at them a couple days later and 90% of them are terrible. The ones that can last, that one just the more I looked at, the more it felt like it's nice to say it looks cool when you write it down, can abbrevi abbreviate it into something that makes sense. It kind of felt like it, it's ominous, you know, in my opinion. I've heard every permutation of work, where it could have come from and religious or sexual whatever, but it just, it sounded cool as really the... I think I saw NIN T-shirts before I ever heard the music I

feel like they were just for some reason that t-shirt really caught people's imagination. And part of that also was a conscious you know from growing up with kiss and bands with logos and stuff you could carve into desks and notebooks and iconography it was always exciting to me I thought the idea of much like stagecraft, I can appreciate the pearl jam, no bullshit, I get it, but I can also appreciate being a fluid. Yeah, an element of it's okay to dabble in these waters, you know, that was always exciting to me to see if one could frame the music in a way that frame a live performance experience in a way that Embellishes social network was the first scoring you did. Yeah, and how did it come about the first proper score. Yeah, I've gotten a dream like call from David Lynch when he was doing Lost Highway that resulted in a few days sound design and him visiting

the studio in New Orleans and being a huge David Lynch fan, the visit was everything you'd want in a David Lynch experience, you know. And wasn't real scoring. There was just some person he had worked with a long time sound designer had passed away and he was looking for some help on some certain things. But it was interesting to see how he has a creative, how big a role sound plays and how he tells stories. It was interesting to see from a completely non-technical, you know, point of view, scribble something on a piece of paper.

I wouldn't sound like that. Yeah? Yeah. But I was friends with acquaintances with David Fincher. And I'd met him through Mark Romantic. And a fan of his work, and then we started getting calls. David Finch would like you to score his new movie.

But it was coming right at a time where I got sober in 2001, and prolific life change. And aside from something I needed to do to stay alive, countless life lessons, the biggest one being, I don't know everything, you know? And it's okay to ask for help and be humbled. And I think the process of sobriety for me was a gun to your head of really assessing

your choices and your life and what led you to decisions and your relationships and your bullshit, the way you lie to yourself. And the uncomfortable process of going through that process of going through that certainly has countless blessings that one can use past that and recognition of just being forced to work out some things that I think people that don't have to go through sobriety miss out on. I'm not saying I'm grateful, I'm an addict, I'm grateful, I'm in recovery. Given the choice to not be an addict, I'd prefer to not be an addict. But there's been a lot of things I've learned that have greatly helped me live a life that I feel good about myself today that came from the desperation of having to that process. I mention that because being able to embark on an engaging, healthy relationship with somebody

where you're completely honest and not bringing into it your own weirdness and bullshit When did it get really bad for me? How and when did it get really bad for you? I? never set out to be an addict I never romanticized it wasn't I it wasn't I had my first beer when I was 13 and I wasn't that guy, you know I just felt like When I would be getting to know you, I'm in a place where I don't really know who I am and now I'm being looked at by a bunch of people and in a place that feels uncomfortable

and I'm already anxious and I'm not sure because I don't have that arm or on because I'm not, I don't have a Gene Simmons costume, you know. I'm not, I don't have a story like Perry Farrell, I was a male prostitute, whatever it might have been, right? That was a pretty cool story that I don't have that. I'm a fucking dude from Pennsylvania, you know. I remember when I met Anthony, you know.

He seemed like he knew how to be a rock star, you know, or knew how to be Anthony, you know, he seemed like he knew how to be a rock star I know I knew how to be himself, you know, I feel like I'm trying to figure out how to be human Just be yeah, not be on fire when I'm in the room, you know, I felt much more In aligned with you In the way I felt feel in the world. Yeah, maybe why I resonate with music so much so I felt feel in the world maybe why I resonate with music so much So You see what this is leading I have an a beer Reduced that by 10% I know I don't feel as

You know the intent was just to find relief from pain and anxiety and the pressure of now you have an audience You know all this. Am I interesting? And what if they find out I'm not interesting? What if I'm, what if they really see who I am, you know? And that could tie into that, not good enough, you know, my own mythologizing in my head. It's connected to where I came from and that's because I was abandoned or whatever the fuck. But it came out in the form of, I liked myself better with the drink, you know,

and then that creeps into, where it creeps into, you know, and it took a few years, but, you know, I'll be totally honest with you. There's things I feel ashamed of, you know, that time when David Lynch came. I wasn't at my best. I wasn't me. I was a little fucked up.

I wasn't vomiting on people. But I wasn't, I'm ashamed of that. Someday I'd like to, he won't remember or care. But I'd like to say, hey, I wasn't my best. A lot of times with you, I feel ashamed that I was in the state I was in, that I wasn't the person I wish you knew, you know? I was kind of the condition I was in. I've learned that addiction is a disease and all that stuff stuff and I'm not challenging any of that but I still feel ashamed of some of that shit. My time with Bowie,

you know, ultimate artistic hero calls me up to tour with him. Fuck yes, I'll go on a tour with you. Sp spending quite a bit of time together and him recognizing and big brothering me and to get your shit together. Wow, I was there. Wow, you don't have to be there. No, I'm looking at him, my you fuck man, he's got a beautiful wife, he's happy. He's telling me

this was the outside album, So 97 or something like that. Hey, I'm got back together with Eno. We recorded a weird album. Nobody's gonna want to hear this. I'm gonna go out with a band and only play this stuff. I'm not playing the hits. Nobody wants that, but I need to do it. And I'm thinking my whole adult life, I've looked at Bowie through the myth making of how you hear about stuff, as a guy fearlessly reinventing himself and unafraid of throwing away things that aren't broken to fearlessly trying new shit. And I'm watching him do it in front of me. We're bigger than Bowie when that tour came up.

He asks if we'll play with him. I say the only way we'll play is if we open for him. How do we make that make sense to people that come see us at the amphitheater, you know? Let's make a show that starts with that. I said, I'll give up my ending if you give up your entrance And let's make it one show that goes from us to you and let's make it make sense and we'll only use white light And when you guys come out it'll feel you know

And it was cool. It was a cool show anyway. I digress on that though. He was Anyway, I digress. On that, though, he was real inspiration. I'm seeing somebody that feels like they came out of something and they're on the other side and their life is good. He genuinely was in a place where he's happy. He feels like we're going to play these shows and people are not going to like what we're doing, but that's what this is. I know. I need to do it. like we're gonna play these shows and people are not gonna like what we're doing but That's what that's what this is. I know I need to do it. I need to get this out. I thought fuck

Would I have the balls to do that? I? Don't know, you know I've gone and played tours where I'm playing songs. I kind of I'm tired of playing but I know there's an expectation and that Is that I'm tired of playing, but I know there's an expectation and that is that compromising or is that actually I want to share this with you and this can either be in or out. If you want, but I do want to share this because it's interesting. I saw you play at the forum and I want to say it was probably 14, 15 years ago, something like that. And the show opened. Now, keeping in mind, 30 years ago, when I saw you, my favorite band, it was the original version of

Nine Inch Nails. And this show that I saw 14 or so years ago, opened with the original version of Nine Inch Nails. That's how the show started. And then it changed into different versions of modern production, all of which were incredible. It was part where you were standing by yourself in front of a giant screen. There was a part where the instruments changed to electronic instruments. And at the end of the show, I remember thinking, and again, biggest fan, my favorite stuff was the early stuff. I felt like the show would have been better

had that not been there. Even though that was my favorite thing about the band. The older stuff. The old stuff. It's like it didn't make the show better. It felt more like, it felt like an obligation. Yeah. And I've actually been wanting to tell you since that night, you have no obligation. Yeah. You're free. No, I appreciate that. And you know, it's one of those things that if we're on the topic of how one presents the band when there is a

catalog in a large amount of stuff I Will admit I am torn sometimes about wanting to I Thought about this on the way here at length. Um, usually when there's a scenario of a tour coming up Usually when there's a scenario of a tour coming up There's a discussion about what kind of venues what kind of size what kind of thing, you know, and in that discussion money is part of that, you know finances and logistics and I think as a result of tuning in to Our audience which I had done over the years, I'm consciously trying to do much less of, you know, I was fascinated with when the internet changed interaction between fan and audience.

They saw a lot more of you, but you could see a lot more of what they're feedback, what they're interested in, what they're not interested in. Not from how can I tailor music to fit what you know, marvel fandom, not that. But it was interesting at times to see if we play a show at the forum. There's a lot of people pissed off because the experience isn't that great because it's the forum and it sounds like shit and it's impersonal and you've had that experience as I have. It's not as good as that club. If you play the club, you know, the other side of it, you get in, I get in, they don't get in and they're pissed off because they can't get in.

And now it's scalpers and there's a whole other world of fucking problems. If you play 30 shows at the club, then it's you're playing the show and you can see the same people in the audience every night and that starts to feel like, what are we doing right now? And it somehow, it's kind of a boring conversation. It's kind of somehow zeroes out at, I tend to feel like if we're going to play a show, I want that show to feel authentic and feel real,

but I also want it to not feel like a self-indulgent. We know you want this, we're not going to give you that, we're only doing, because I've been to many of those shows too, where it kind of feels like, I'm really not in the mood to hear another 20-minute solo off the new album that nobody really likes, you know, rolling stones. I don't want to hear the whole new album. Sorry, you know what I mean? But I'm not saying it's, I get your point completely. I think the other part of it that I would consider is, is there a way to never go through the motions of doing the song the way it was on the record because that's the way you did it and thinking more in terms of okay these are

the songs I want to play these are the songs that I want to play these this is a group of songs that I think everyone wants to hear. I want to play a way to play these where it's interesting to me yeah how can I reinvent the song to be true to who I am today? What does that sound like? And if you do that for a period of time, there'll be a time when maybe 10 years from now, you feel like, well, be really fun to do it the old way.

Like it would be new to do it the old way at some point in time. If you give yourself a break from doing it the old way. And you might really enjoy like finding a new way in. It's a great experience. I mean, it happened unintentionally with hurt. And I was going to say another, another version where that happened, which is interesting to me. I remember going to the Bowie show. And you, you had asked me to do a remix of one of the songs on Downward Spiral, which I did, and it was a very contentious version. I would say I was great. Well, but it was definitely colored outside the lawns

outside the lawns. On purpose, because I felt like this is my favorite song on the album, anything I do to it's gonna ruin it. So I'm gonna lean into that and just do something make something else because yeah it's already the thing that it is is the thing that it is. Anything I do is not gonna be better. So it's okay so I'll be really free. And then when I came to the Bowie show you played my version live and it blew my mind. I was completely unprepared and it was the opposite of people love that song on the album. The audience wanted the

real version and you gave them the ruined version and it was fun. It really was. It really was. I really made me No, I really made me happy. So I think you asked me, David Fincher, social network. Yeah. Anyway, I had just, I was getting married and I just finished a long tour and I felt like I'd just promised myself I'm going to take some time and not fill the day with the next thing. You know, not rush into the next thing, which I tend to do all the time. And then the phone's ringing with Vincere saying,

do you want to score this film? And he sent me the script and I read it and his script was great. And I just, this new adult version of me said, I've got to live up to the promise I just made to myself. And I said, the David, look, it's not you, it's not the film, it's not the material. It's just to do this right, I have to immerse myself in it. I don't know how to do this. And I don't feel like I'm in a place right now where I can give it my best. And if I do't feel like I'm in a place right now or I can give it my best. And if I do, I'm not being honest with what I just said I would do for myself. Please respect

it. And then it's not you. I totally get it. I totally get it. And then what happened? I get sleep for a couple days and I can't quit thinking about that. Of course, because I feel like I've let him down and I feel like I've copped out in a few weeks went by and then I called him up and said Hey, one more time. I just want to reiterate It wasn't you, okay, and it wasn't the material I just really didn't feel like I was able to pull this off.

And I said, if it ever comes up again, if there's the next film, please, give me a mic. Because no, I'm still fucking waiting for you to do this film. When can you come over? You know? And, uh, yeah, and I went and then we started. And the rest is history.

Yeah. What was the experience like? I mean, did first of all, just from a technical perspective, does he say these are the scenes I want music? This is where the cue goes, or do you watch the movie and decide where the music goes? With venture, and I didn't realize it's this at the time until I was around other composers a few months later in award season craziness. I never crossed my mind. It was even a thing. But with Fincher, really instilled the greatest collaborator one could have in that area because he's carved out of space where he's fought to make sure that this camp of people that are making the film are not answering to producers or studios or any

interest other than his which is let's make the very best thing we can. And the team he's assembled with his editors and sound guys and they are great. And when you around them, you feel like, wow, I gotta keep up, not in an intimidating way. In a, everyone's riffing off each other and you're watching this thing and get better and better. Yeah. And certainly there was a feeling of,

I don't wanna be the one that fucks the movie up because I don't want him doing it. But what David will do, he started that process off saying, I'm thinking that it might feel a little electronic, maybe. And very, very few little bread drums. And what had happened before, what led to him asking, Atticus and I to work on this, was it made a record under Nine of Snales called Ghosts, which was just an experiment, which was,

I enjoy arranging music at times and trying to evoke emotional reactions, but the only time I get to do it is supporting a song and trying to arrange it in a way that sounds interesting. So I came up with an idea, I had Alan Mulder over and I said, let's just do this. Every day, let's make a new piece of music and whatever it is at the end of the day we're done. This is an ENO-esque type of thing. Let's start with other photo or a feeling or a phrase and let's just make it that. And so here's a picture of the end of a pier in a swamp in New Orleans and it's dusk and it feels Tom Waitzee and just feels kind of hot and humid and slightly sensual and almost menacing. What's that sound like?

Not sound effects, but what would feel right? That we need to score that idea. Say a movie like David Cronenberg's Dead Ringers fills me with dread. I think it's a great film of just feeling like something bad is going to happen. Nothing good is going to come out of this. That feeling of dread makes a song for that. And it was just a fun thing that felt like no pressure. I felt the opposite of writing songs, where it's just experimental and it was just a fun thing that felt like no pressure. I felt the opposite of writing songs where it's just experimental and it was a chance to try different canvases and

play around in different areas that I wouldn't probably get to in managed nails normal songwriting mode and put that out as a instrumental double album that caught Fincher's ear and he had tempt in some of that for social network. Because I said, why are you bugging me? He said, because you had the language of being able to emotionally enhance the story I'm trying to tell. I'm not saying make it sound like that record.

But I can tell from these experiments that's the textures in the emotional resonance I'm looking for. Then I'm faced with that dilemma I mentioned earlier of how do you score a thing with talking? And once I kind of realized, we tried this strategy. Rather than call up Hans Zimmer and ask him how he's start. We thought we had a little time and we spent two weeks or so. What's think about this film? We've seen a rough cut of half of it. We have the script. We've

talked a fincher about what story he's trying to tell. The feeling he's trying to convey, he's not trying to make it feel like a comfortable college shenanigans story. It's meant to feel more important than that. Stakes, emotional stakes, and gravitas is meant to feel a bit more weighty. And then just started day dreaming and improvising and wrote about eight or nine, ten maybe, five minute pieces of music that evolved. Here's a theme that kind of goes from mild and benign to feeling like clouds are creeping in to something whatever it might be. All of them had a kind of feel like you could put it on listen to it

and it felt pleasant and it didn't feel like a loop but it was essentially exploring different tonal variations of different musical things. And I sent that to him and I said just see if this isn't first seen, this isn't for this part, this isn't the whatever. But this feels like what I hear your movie as the world of it. And it's also testing him to see instrumentally, musically, tonally, are these things resonating? Some were more synthetic, some were more organic sounding. Just to see where, because he's incredibly smart, he can pretty much any aspect of making a film. He can tell you more about the lens of the camera

than the cinematographer, the fucking, you know. With music, it's more of a shapes, and it's not real specific in a good way. Anyway we heard back almost immediately like listen I'm gonna try cutting some of this into a film and in a couple days do you wanna come see a quick cut of it? It's gonna have your music in it though

sure so we walk into some theater somewhere when I'm sitting right behind Brad Pitt watching a rough cut of this film with the music we just wrote kind of tried in different spots and it was an almost religious experience like to hear, I know it's obvious, but to be in the control seat for a minute and to hear something you did, see how much it affects the way of something plays and the way you feel watching it.

I was hooked, you know, just with making me aware of the emotional power of music and in the role of a film where you're experiencing a thing to know how much you can control one response to that thing and how varied it can be by what goes in there was just exciting to see. Absolutely. From that point on, that it became much more traditional. Now we know this kind of thing works and that kind of part of the film. Now let's get in and really start

doing it once we had the breadcrumbs started to take root and seed. The more often you do it, do you feel like you always get better at doing it? Generally yes, but what it's become, you know, we did that film, the process of doing it, the pressure of being in a foreign situation with people who are great. And you like them as people and you want to keep up and then realize and you are keeping up and you're inspiring them and seeing it all come together on a film that is really good and also watching the film Fincher has an uncanny way of Okay, he's somehow managed to

Zone in on taking three frames out of that and tightening this one thing up And he's seen it how many hundreds of times and helped write it and filmed it and picked between 100 takes of that thing and composited this, but still remains objective enough to incrementally nudge it forward to where undeniably it is getting better. And as he's dealing with you on this one scene, he's also dealing with the other 100 things around it. And it's pretty impressive. Anyway, we finished that film He's also dealing with the other 100 things around it.

It's pretty impressive. Anyway, we finished that film and then weirdly it starts to get accolades and then people are saying you might get nominated for an Oscar. It's not possible. Just like if you decide to run a race and you just won, you know, how it can't be possible. I'm, it must be a flu. It felt good through that whole process. But I think in, as you endlessly had to promote film and being round tables with other composers that you know, but no of, but don't know, and you're

hearing how fortunate the untypical the Fincher situation is. Really reframed kind of experience we had. It was great. What it's become since then, as we've had time to kind of think about, do we want to keep doing this? Or what are we getting from? Are we trying to become a factory and just as many films or what it comes down to is I really enjoy weirdly working in service to something. Yeah, it's like also each one of them is a puzzle to solve. So it's like exactly that. Yeah, it's like cracking a code. It feels good to crack the code, whatever it is for whatever it is.

And what I think about now when it's choosing projects is, it's all about the person you're going to be stuck in a room with, you know, trying to figure it out. And if you know them, it's one thing that the last few we've done where all people we hadn't ever met before. And they've largely been good experiences, but it's interesting to kind of psychologically understand, okay, the code is that director, right? Trying to tell a story, I am a tool that can help shape it in a tremendous way, but trying to get past, trying to understand what they're trying to say, and then trying to do good work inside the confines of me.

You know, I find it, I wouldn't want to do it, only do that. And if I do too much of it in a row, I find, now I really want to do something else. It's the process from songwriting and how different is it when it's in service to something else and not you. To me the hardest thing is the songwriting. having something to say, having something to say with truth, that has that thing, has that reason to exist, rather than just a thing, just an exercise. Having to think about the multiple layers of, for a Max Martin or a songwriter,

I don't know how that works and I appreciate the craftsmanship of it. Like I've I've got five kids now. Five. Yeah. Unbelievable. And it's the best thing that's ever happened to me. And I know it's a thing to say, but it's radically shaped every bit of who I am and why I do anything. And the reason I mention that is, for a while I've kept them in a kind of hermetically sealed away from pop music, because I think it sucks, general. I have thought that for whatever reason. And I realize about a year ago that's not fair and they're

not away from it. They're just I'm just not playing it breakfast and in the car I don't have on radio stations you know. And I heard my daughter who's six singing do a leap a day. She's so into it, it was so cool. Like this is her music, you know, this is her thing. And I've kind of turned on and immersed myself in just what's happening and out in culture now, I know. And there's no reason to bring all this up other than it really reminded me that the art of writing a well-crafted song when it teared up listening to Dole Lee Patrack the other day because it was just a really well-done piece of music, you know, and just clever, it felt good. If I was in the demographic, it is hard to do. You know, it's difficult thing to do. Yeah, and this is all got on this.

I don't know how to do that. Because I'm, when I'm trying to think of what to say or how to say it, I'm saying it from the unvarnished me. And that requires me thinking about who I am and where my position is now. And all of that together it becomes something that feels Stakes are higher. Yeah It hasn't gotten easier over the course of your life. What's gotten easier in sobriety is

Not starting with this has to be the best song in the world or that Ridiculous you know, hey, this might suck but I'm going to do it today. That I can have fun with now but the feeling of in the back of my mind there is a if this is ever meant to be out in the world before I start writing the novel I might want to think about what what do I think it's about you know what what might happen might happen rather than just what comes out? Sitting down musically, arranging stuff can come from a, I know what's right. I don't have to assess my thoughts on how I feel

about a thing that's who am I now? Is that who, you know what I mean? I've changed to my perspective in the world has changed, who often, and I have to think of this when I'm writing, am I being honest with who I am now, or am I in the archetypal, yeah, the character I was, and I thought I was, you know, not in a tripling way, but just in a, it feels more difficult process. Do you only write for a

particular project? So let's say I'm going to make a, I'm going to start a new album, so I'm going to start writing for that. Or are you always writing? When film stuff kicked in, kind of coincided with being married and then starting a family. And I realized my, I can never just sit around and be. I feel like I've got stuff. I feel better if I've got some things. You know, they don't have to be big things, but just something. If I had a day off with nothing to do and kids are at school

or something, I'd probably find myself, now I can learn how that drum machine works that I was interested in. That would be a fun thing to fill my brain with. What it wouldn't be is what someone healthy would do to relax. Whatever that is. Let's say I wouldn't go for a walk, but I feel like I need something to feel like I'm getting stuff figured out. You know. And when film stuff kind of came into the equation,

it was a chance to do a lot of composition that felt interesting and informative and educational and rewarding feeling like you're doing what you're supposed to be doing level emotionally, without the anxiety of lyric writing. And I kind of felt nice not thinking about that. There's always a list of, as a parent,

I find there's never ending well if I choose to look in there of What aren't I doing that I could be doing should be doing right now, you know? How could I be more present? With five of them there's always someone has an Urgent need or I can imagine there is one. Could I be a better parent? The answer always is yes, I can be, you know. Could I spend a little more time?

And I haven't been beat myself up really about, particularly with the pandemic kicked in. I thought, great, this will be the time. I can really write that opera. What I found instead was, I don't really want to do anything right now. I kind of want to feel okay and I want to make sure my family is okay and it's great. That's okay. Absolutely.

That was a revelation though. Because I, anyway, I'm in a point right now where I'm working on some things that art music and art, art scoring films, a bit around storytelling, just to see if I can do it. One of the last times I saw you before this, I also remember feeling intense shame that I'll share with you. With Larry Jackson for an Apple thing that was going on. Yeah, I don't remember that. Did your old house burn?

My old house, I was at that house. We stopped buying for a minute. Well, I was working on an Apple. Are you not working at Apple anymore? No, no, no. Just briefly, several years ago, one of the things I've just daydreaming about, I'm interested in how people listen to music and consume music.

Because I think it's important, because I care about music. And Spotify was just starting out. Streaming was coming, you know, torrenting and stealing music was declining, record shops are dead. The industry feels kind of dead and it's, on an, an exciting as a consumer, it's, it felt like if streaming becomes the new thing, wouldn't it be great if two things happened? One, the experience as a consumer could be one that's like going to independent record shop where how many times have you done this I walked in with no real agenda and I left with my arms hurting because the bag so heavy of shit, wow, I can't wait to listen to this stuff, you know.

I didn't feel that that Spotify's homepage. I felt like I was at the mall walking past the same shit that I would see the billboards of, down to go down the sunset Boulevard, you know. When I stumble into all music guide, and suddenly I didn't realize that guy produced this record, and he also played bass on that. And now I've 20 layers deep into an exciting tangent of connections I didn't even know. Or I forgot about that.

I want to hear that right now. Wouldn't that be cool if that could all happen in a place that's tailored to you that, you know, that was thing number one. Thing number two, a pipe dream. Wouldn't it be nice if musicians could get paid for making music instead of it being a lost leader to get you to buy a fucking toaster at Best Buy or, you know or that line in the contract, future technologies that will make sure we'll figure out how to not pay you on streaming of which has become that in my opinion. So came up with an idea that at the same time Jimmy was trying to make the streaming service within the Beats ecosystem, it was a fun project to kind of work on for a year

or so, just to see if I could even pull it off, see what working on that climate was like. Surprise, Apple wants to buy it and now can you work an Apple to help them launch their thing with those two points you just mentioned? I could try, I know, I've never done that before. Let me see. And finding myself immersed in that corporate culture at the highest level, where it's me versus the engineering team about fighting for things that matter with the goal being an experience that feels, that elevates music into the experience I described.

What it deserves. What it deserves. It's not auto parts that need to be fulfilled. It's fucking art, you know, treated as such, you know. Give it a little reverence, you know. Things like, why can I not see the inside record sleeve of any album in 2023? You know, we've gone back in time. Could you not have someone scan that shit? Can you not treat it like it's, you know, as a small aspect of one of the many things

missing from the experience? You know, treat the shit with reverence. And I spent four years in various degrees of witnessing, it was educational, it was interesting. It wasn't music, I wasn't being an artist. I was voicing an opinion of artists in a corporate environment. I think I've made some inroads, but ultimately realized that, you know, if I wanted to make an impact, I had to move there in full time, become that thing. And nothing made me want to make music more than even thinking that. And I felt terrible. And the midst of that feeling, for some reason we had to come up and talk to you about something about music and Larry was there and we're talking and the whole time

I just felt like I can't remember it before I was drunk Now I made a fucking corporation. I'm not an artist That's how my brain works. I've never seen you in any light other than the most diligent and caring artists. I will try to listen to that with my whole heart. It's true. It's a true. Anyway, never question it. Well, I appreciate that. I'm trying something that's weirdly enough when I tapped out a vowel. Six months later, there was something I missed about the foreignness of it, the challenge.

It's another riddle to figure out. Yeah, no, great. So anyway, I'm working on some things that's intentionally cryptic that might scratch that itch, but be closer to the artistic world than supply chains and what I'm going to do. Patiently awake. How do you say your relationship to music has changed since starting to make it to now?

From the far back as I can remember, music was the thing I could relate to. And as I could play it or perform it, it allowed me to vocabulary to understand how I feel about things and feel okay, either as just being a person to understand how I feel or as someone that can actually create something that has beauty or allows me to get it out. You know, and the role music played in my life is just to help me understand, listening to music as a fan of music was defined who I was in every respect. Being able to get into the game, make music, and get it out to people. Every dream I've ever had fulfilled, you know, beyond whatever thought.

Because it didn't start with how can I get famous or rich doing this. It was if I could just get on that stage and know what that feels like. Feel what it feels like, and it feels fucking great is what it feels like, you know. And sometimes it feels terrible, and it's like, you know, and sometimes it feels terrible and it's feels, you know. And I think as time has gone on, as some things become less, some aspects of that become less exciting, endlessly touring, I don't want to be away from my kids, you know, not that much. I don't want to miss their lives out to go do a thing that I am grateful to be able to do

and I'm appreciative that you're here to see it, but I've done it a lot, you know. I think where it is for me personally right now in the context of Nine-inch Nails in terms of an audience and the culture where it is and the importance of Nine-inch-Nales in terms of an audience and the culture where it is and the importance of music or lack of importance of music in today's world from my perspective. He's a little defeating, I think. It feels to me in general. And I'm saying this is a 57-year-old man. Music used to be the thing. That was what I was doing. When I had time,

I was listening to music. I wasn't doing it in the background while I was doing five other things. And I wasn't treating it kind of as a disposable commodity. It was the thing that you... I don't go into the cinema and do my taxes while movies playing. I'm there to watch a movie. I kind of miss the attention music got. I miss the critical attention music got. Not that I'm not interested in a critics opinion, but to send something out in the world and feel like it touched places.

Might have got a negative or positive, but somebody heard it. It got validated in its own way, culturally. That feels askew. I can't think of any review I care about today that I even trust. I could write it before it comes out because it's already written.

It's a fact chat GPT could probably do a better job, you know, or it is currently. I don't ready to be doing it. You know, that makes for what I feel is a less fertile environment to put music out into. Completely. In the world of non-inch nails. Yeah. Completely understood. I think that's where some of the excitement of composition and film has allowed. It's thrust me into places I wouldn't be with my band. It's made me learn and be in awe of what music is and how powerful it is and how much there is to know about it and how much I don't know about it.

And in awe of seeing these different ways it can affect you emotionally and techniques and sound and soundscapes and things I don't think I would have come across on the typical trajectory of being in a band. Reminders of what a fucking amazing form of art, you know, that I think naturally is just like everything in life, taking a minute to appreciate I'm alive, you know, and things could be much worse. I've got many, many things to be grateful for. Don't get hung up on this unimportant thing, you know, when I'm not sure of that connectedness but with music, I've gone through phases of feeling kind of stale, like I'm not

thinking about it that much, it's just looking just as a thing, you know. I understand. The way it seems like at the time that you entered music, there was, you talked about the double album that seemed seen the Zappa double album. You know, and wanting to have that and wanting to like understand what was going on there. And we're looking forward to investing time in that experience. And now, just the nature, I think it's the nature of streaming. And it's, there's good and bad to it. It's not all bad. It's good also. But it has changed that from the album, that from your favorite group that you've been waiting for,

that you listen to for months or years, becomes a thing that comes out and you listen to it for a week or two. And then the conveyor belt's always going by with something else and it just moves on. So nothing seems to have the same gravitas of any, you know, whoever today's biggest act in the world is, I don't know who it is, but it doesn't seem to have, the fact that I don't know who it is, it tells you. It doesn't seem to be in the culture in the same way, but that same thing has happened with,

like I've mentioned this story before, I don't think I've mentioned to you. But when the Godfather came out, everyone you knew saw the Godfather. And it won the Academy Award for the Best Movie. And it was an event. Or when Sergeant Pepper came out, everyone bought Sergeant Pepper. And everyone you knew heard Sergeant Pepper. And you'd hear it on the radio. Today, the Academy Awards, they're now 10 and set a five movies up for best picture.

Chances are you and nobody you know has seen any of those 10 movies. None. Not one. So it's not just music. It's like it's just the way the culture has evolved where nothing seems to have that capture the imagination. I agree with you. I think some of that is the lack of monoculture things, channels, MTV, a place where lots of people tune into a thing. I think part of it is to go really old school when you bought an album, it existed somewhere. You see it, you encounter it, it's on your shelf. When everything is now in the cloud and it's all available, Angie didn't invest in it.

I don't even mean money, but even time, or it doesn't have a place in your house, it's just a thing it becomes less tangible right and becomes easier to forget Yeah, I Missed the days you know I got I Find myself in a place now where I'm not I don't have a good place to discover new music I used to Know when the release date of all the things were I used to steal stuff from the torrent site

because I wanted to hear it and it wasn't to save money. It was just, I just want to hear the thing. I'm excited. It was an rectified. Now I don't even, I often don't know it even came out, you know, I don't like being in that place, but it kind of feels like everything's sped up and it's just different.

It's hard not to talk about this kind of thing and start to realize, oh, I'm becoming the guy that I'm older in my perspective. But that's also different. I think it also is, yes, part of it's growing up, but as much of it has to do with the way technology has changed the way the culture works. It's just changed it. And on the good side is if you do go to all music guide and you want to go down that rabbit hole, now you don't have to go hunting for all of those things, you can just press a button and hear every one of

them. And you can, I like the idea that if something pops into my head that I can hear literally anything. I love that experience. It was gonna tell you a shazam story. I love shazam because it's just a great, it's great to be able to find out what went something's playing. I almost never shazam anything on television.

I was watching a documentary a couple of years ago. At the end of it, music came on, It was really loud and it was really good. And I never even pay attention to music on television. But it was good enough. It's like, I had a shazam, whatever this is, I have shazam it. And it made sense. It's like, oh, you made it. It turned out it was something you made.

It was maybe, um, citizen four. Could it have been that? Yeah. It was like, it was good enough to make me want to shazam it from a television show. That's great to hear. Thank you so much for rolling down here today. Oh, 2, you