Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin - Woody Harrelson

Episode Date: August 21, 2024

Woody Harrelson is a notorious television and film actor. After a brief stint in New York Theater at the start of his career, he made his on-screen debut on NBC’s “Cheers,” regarded as one of the best TV shows of all time. He has gained acclaim for his roles in movies like The People Vs. Larry Flynt, No Country for Old Men, and Three Billboards Outside Ebbings, Missouri. With over 60 movies in his portfolio, Harrelson acts across a range of genres, including comedy, drama, and thriller. Over the course of his career, he has been nominated for three Academy Awards and four Golden Globe Awards, and he has been the recipient of a Primetime Emmy Award.  ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Squarespace https://squarespace.com/tetra ------ Lucy https://lucy.co/tetra ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://drinklmnt.com/tetra ------ House of Macadamias https://www.houseofmacadamias.com/tetra

Tetragrammaton. Tetragrammaton. Tetragrammaton. Tetragrammaton. Tetragrammaton. Tetragrammaton. Tetragrammaton. Sometimes I feel like these

characters I've gotten to play, like I feel like, I resonate with this character, you know, already, just as soon as I've read the script or read the book or whatever it is that introduces me into the character. But as for how it works, it's just about a certain believability. If the audience believes you, then you're golden, and if they don't, you're screwed, and then inside of that, you're just hoping

to do one or two things that are interesting and not be just totally boring, which I've also been guilty of. Do you have to believe the character? Yeah, that's for sure. If I don't believe the character, there's a disconnect that I can't get over. The writing is always the number one thing. Because even if you get the greatest director,

which you would always think, that's number one. But even if you get Scorsese or something great, they can't necessarily fix a broken script. That's the weird thing is I have accepted parts in movies or in a play or whatever that I afterward have no idea why did I do that? I never connected to it, it never resonated right with me, why did I do it?

So I just come away feeling like somewhat dirty from it. Like I just sold myself somehow. But even in those cases, do you get better at your craft every time you do your job? I think when you do your job badly, you don't really get better at your craft. And I've felt the, not outward critique of that,

but my internal critique of that, even lately, I would think after all this time. Okay surely I'm not gonna be doing stuff that I'm not proud of or being a part of something. I'm not proud of Damn It can still happen. But also you're not in control of the whole thing That's true. You've got to trust your director. I mean, really, it's like one A and one B script, director,

and then the other actors would be number two. And of course, the DP then would be number three. Is the script always about the story or could it be about something else? Well, that's interesting. I've been reading interviews with Fellini and it's fascinating how much his script may not even have a cohesive story or a plot or anything.

It's like dream, this neorealism, or then just kind of, you know, like you're just supposed to flow with this something that doesn't even seem to have a tangible story. It makes me want to watch all these, you know, Eight and a Half and Adolce Vita and all these movies, because, you know, I I wanna see filmmaking from another perspective.

Naturally, the way I grew up is, and probably you too, is just thinking, well, it needs to have a story, a plot, defined characters, great direction, it has to have all that. How did you learn your craft? Well, what I did, I started in high school. And I actually started in the church. I was quite religious in, well,

you don't have to be quite religious to be in a church, but I was. And then I got this part, it was like the telling of the nativity. Nativity. And I played like this drunk who came, I got to come through the church, from the back of the church, up the aisle.

And I'm singing and I'm like, I fell down on my great-grandmother who was sitting next to my grandmother. And I tell you, it was just a one-shot dealio, but the audience really responded. I wasn't trying to be an actor at that point, and I was maybe 16 or so. And it turned out great. So then the next thing that happened was,

I think it was around Christmas time. And I was in the library and I used to, when Elvis died I sent away, like, you could send away a nickel and get like a bunch of records. And among the records I got, I think it was called Elvis's Golden Oldies, right? It's like I got the album and I started listening to it and then I started kind of singing,

doing my little bit of Elvis, you know? So I'm in the library and some guys from the football team, which was the only place I used to sometimes sing it on the bus on the football bus going to games or going home from games and The guys were like These guys I owe my life to and I wouldn't know me I wouldn't know the name or the face nothing if you told me to this day. It's terrible they were like good do your Elvis. And I'm like, we're in the library, dude.

They said, I can't do my Elvis. I said, yeah, yeah, do it, do it. I said, it's too loud. Well, do it quiet. I can't do it quiet. I don't know how to do it quiet. I've never done it quiet. They're like, just try, just do it a little.

And they kept insisting, and thank God. Because then I started, well bless my soul, what's wrong with me? I'm itching like a man on a fuzzy tree. My friends say I'm acting wild as a bug, I'm in love. I'm always shook up. And then slowly, people start coming around. And then I can't keep it quiet.

I just didn't know how to do it. I don't to this day know how to do Elvis quietly. But anyway, they started clapping and clapping, and then pretty soon, when it gets to that part in the song, well, my hot pizza, it's getting me to death. And I jump up on the table, and it's just before Christmas, so it's packed in the library,

and the whole, they were all gathered around. Everybody in the library was gathered around the table, clapping. It's amazing. You've never done anything like this before? Never. I mean, I had sung, you know, like the only singing even for anyone outside of my own family

was for the guys on the football bus I started singing, because I couldn't help it once I started listening to those songs. And anyway, so this was literally a unique thing for me. And it was maybe the most extraordinary event of my life because it was a birthing story. Because what happened, I sang it and at the end, everybody was clapping, even the librarian,

everyone was psyched, and up came Robin Rogers. And Robin Rogers was dating the supreme jock of the school and she was so far outside my time zone. I mean, she was in another hemisphere, right? And the fact that she even talked to me was rather, she says, hi, I'm Robin, and I go, I know. And she says, hey, I'm the vice president of the drama club, maybe you wanna come try out

for the school play. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's easy, Robin Rogers wants me to. So I did, I tried out for the play the next, I think it was the next term or whatever, the next year maybe. I tried out for it and I got a little part and that's what started me getting on stage.

It's thanks to Elvis and Robin. How would you say the people perceived you in school before that moment? Well, I think they perceived me as, I was a bit of a class clown. So in that sense, there was also another kind of a performance. I used in that sense there was also another kind of a performance. You know I used to have these things in my mind when the teacher would say something you know

and I would have a zinger in my mind but I just wouldn't say it and I knew it was funny but I just wouldn't say anything you know and I was quite shy for a while. And then I remember, I don't know, I think it was like in the eighth or ninth grade, I finally let loose and said something and it was dead quiet and then two seconds passed and the whole class cracked up. So in a sense, I guess you would call that performance as well. And I used to do another thing, I guess you would call that performance as well. And I used to do another thing.

I just remembered. I'm glad you asked me that. Because I used to do this thing where I was a sugar junkie. I was a hardcore junkie. And to this day, I will tell you, sugar is the most difficult drug I ever quit. Granted, the only drug I ever quit. Granted, the only drug I ever quit. But at the time, I was fully addicted. So I'd come to class frequently and I was just so,

I had the trajectory of the sugar and then it of course takes you down and I'm like slumped over on the desk, barely keeping my head up, or maybe not keeping my head up, and then the teacher, and what do you think, Woody? And of course I have no fucking clue what she's talking about.

I don't even have any idea whatsoever. So I'd kinda lift my head up and I'd be like, well, funny you should ask that. I really, you know, I was thinking, you know, metaphorically, well, no, you know what, even in real terms, like no matter how, and I just keep going, like until the whole class was laughing. I'd never say anything, but I just get, you know,

and you know, I'm thinking like the first part of the question, well, anyway, the entire, look, what I'm believing now, like in my gut, like if you know, sometimes you have to really go deep and think, and I just keep going, and even the teacher would laugh, you know, and so I started feeling like, you know, I was a kind of a class clown,

and so once I started in the theater, I was kind of a class clown. And so once I started in the theater, there was kind of an avenue, it was particularly in these comedic plays that I did like in college and such, where I had an avenue for I think what was bursting to express itself. How is doing comedy different than drama? To me, it's more interesting, you know?

Well, I mean, when you're getting emotional or something, yeah, there's, you know, obviously things you have to access for that, but my first professional thing, my first professional thing was actually a Goldie Hawn movie. And then while I was there doing that you know one of the guys named Leo Jeter he came up to me and he said hey I just tried out for this part in this show called cheers and you know I didn't watch TV at the time because I've been a

television act someone I went to college I want to just stay away from so I didn't know about it and he's like you should try out for it. And I'm like, nah, dude, I really don't, I don't wanna do television, you know? I just don't wanna, I wanna do theater. Then I went and watched it. I'm like, ooh, ooh, that's wild.

How long had it already been on? And it had been on for three years. But that three years, you know, I quit once I went to college. So it was while I was in college that Cheers started airing. Was it a hit out of the box? No, it was at the end of the first season, it was the lowest thing of every single show.

Wow. And it was during reruns. For some reason, I don't forget what it was that caused people to watch it during reruns, but they caught it during reruns. For some reason, I don't forget what it was that caused people to watch it during reruns, but they caught it during reruns, and then it started gaining steam. And by the time I was on it, it was consistently in the top 10.

Wow. How old were you when you got that job? Well, I was 23 when I auditioned for it and got it. But then I just turned 24 when I started shooting. How many episodes in the season, how many episodes did you do? 26 and then 26 reruns during the season. Would you do the 26 in a row or was that broken up? Well, that would be broken up.

You'd have like a week off. They always had to catch up with the scripts. I mean, these writers, man, they were writing superlative material. The greatest writers, you know, I mean, obviously there's great writers, but among the greatest writers that I... Did you ever watch the writing sessions?

No, I went in there one time, and I remember I made a comment, and they're like, Woody, you're just here to watch. But describe that scene. What was it like? It was really cool. I think it was like eight, maybe nine writers. Well, the Charles brothers were the creators, right? And as well as Jimmy Burroughs. But for a good period of time when I was there,

they weren't really around. And for some of it they were, but then they came in back toward the end to try to make everything great that last season. So they were there quite a bit. But anyway, they did come in either way from time to time. They weren't totally ignoring it, and they were definitely reading every episode

and making sure and adding jokes. And there'd be days where, you know, they'd have like just great writers come in for little punch-ups, like on a Monday or something. We shot Tuesdays. So what day would you see the script for the show for Tuesday? On the Wednesday.

The next day we'd come in and we'd read a new script. Okay. And we hadn't even seen it. So Wednesday you're seeing a script for the first time and the following Tuesday you're gonna shoot it. Yeah, yeah, one week. And then tell me about that first on Wednesday. Was it like a table read?

Table read, yeah. We'd literally read it at the table with the writers and everybody there to listen to it, and then we'd go home. Script wise, how much would it change from that first table read till the time that you shot it? It varied, it depended on the quality of the script. Sometimes it would change remarkably.

Sometimes it would just take this out, add this joke, where the structure would be the same or whatever. They were always finding stuff, and it was such a privilege to be there at this time in this show that was really quite beloved in America, and sometimes some other places in the world. But like say you know a joke something on the floor meaning you know when we were shooting

it the joke didn't work and that I got to witness many times where the writers would circle up and they they just start pitching ideas for here's a better way for this job what about this and then they'd hit start pitching ideas for, here's a better way for this, what about this? And then they'd hit something, that's good, okay. Then we'd try that, or they'd give us a couple things, we'd try it a couple of ways. Was it shot in front of an audience? Yeah. Always.

Always. Was it shot like a play? Did it take 30 minutes to shoot an episode? No, no, we'd do rehearsal, dress rehearsal, then a run through. Then we'd do the show at like 6.30 or something. And that would usually take about three hours with a guy like Jim Burroughs,

who's the greatest of all time. He's like you, he's a goat. And you know, and then once people would leave, he might do some reshoots. Where Jimmy felt like he needed another angle. I see. You know, he might have. Usually for a technical reason.

Yeah, yeah, just like, okay, I need, you know, you might, he might. Usually for a technical reason. Yeah, yeah, just like, okay, I need, you know, George is listening to Johnny, but I didn't get George. Usually if it had to do with a joke, that would be, you know, that he needed a joke in front of the audience. It would always be in front of the audience. He would rarely do jokes. It was other kind of stuff, like say doing a monologue.

In fact, that happened to me. That was the first time I learned that marijuana and acting do not mix. Although I know some very great actors who seem to think it does. I won't reveal who they are, but I went upstairs thinking we were done and me and George were smoking a joint

and I hear over the intercom, come down for your monologue and scene C, Woody. And I'm just like in the middle of, oh my God, you know what I mean? And I went down, and what would have taken me one take? Oh, well let's do that again. Take, Woody, you all right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no problem.

I just, I just tried again. Take like 10 takes, you know? It was brutal, brutal. Could you not remember the lines? It wasn't that, it's just everything that you take for granted in terms of, you know, like just doing a performance. All of the little things with timing

and little inflections or whatever, you know, whatever nuance you give to the verbiage, it suddenly, all of that goes out the window when you get high, well for me, because I just go straight to paranoia, extreme paranoia. So you're questioning yourself as you're doing it. Yeah, well yeah, I get really outside of myself. This is terrible.

And I guess that self-critic is what destroys it. Tell me about the cast. Well, I mean, it was just the greatest people, the greatest guys. Me and Teddy, well, as you know, Teddy and I do this podcast. When did the podcast start? Oh, we started, I don't know,

like a year and a half ago or something. And you guys have remained friends since the Cheers days? Well, we have, but we spent a lot of time apart. You know how it is, like you just. Of course. Yeah, I realize sometimes I'm like, I haven't seen this person for a year or something. Oh, well in that time I did this, this, and this,

and time just went, you know? But we still manage to see each other on and off. And then he's had the idea, and so, pretty cool. But like, you know, it starts at the head, and the head of our show is Ted Danson. And he was just the greatest fucking guy. I mean, he is. He's the greatest guy. He's such a sweetheart.

And never had any ego about whatever, just being a superstar, you know? He was never, ever anything weird about it. And every Tuesday night we'd play foosball, me and Teddy and Kelsey and George. And we'd have battles, people were just like, just to watch it was a spectacle, because we'd be very animated.

You know how actors get get when you give them a You know, yeah, we're partying of course to after work. So we're all like Animated so this is like the celebration for finishing that week's show. Yeah. Yeah, it was our Tuesday night was our Friday night Yeah, yeah would you think of the cast like a team Would you think of the cast like a team? It's like being with the, if you're playing basketball and you know, if I pass it to him, he's definitely scoring.

You know what I mean? It's like, there's such confidence or footy, you know, like you know that you want to send it over to this guy, oh, he's got it or she's got it, you know? And they were all just all home run hitters, you know. Rhea, Kelsey, George, John, Kirsty. So much of today's life happens on the web. Squarespace is your home base for building your dream presence in an online world. Designing a website is easy, using one of Squarespace's best-in-class templates.

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Visit squarespace.com slash tetra and get started today. How is it different on a movie because it's a shorter period of time that you have your team? Yeah, well, you know, I remember going to church camp and it was one week and I would make the closest friends imaginable. You know, we would be pen pals for years,

and you know, not any friendships, obviously, that lasted, unfortunately. But in the context of a movie, you do really develop very good friends. You should. You know, like, to me, this is an important part of the creative process, and I'd be interested in your perspective on it.

If it doesn't turn into a family, even a dysfunctional family, it doesn't work. And I don't care how you try to fake it. It needs to become almost familial, and there needs to be that trust that develops between a brother and a sister, or a mother and a daughter, whatever it is. You need to have that trust and caring.

And also, they do all those exercises, and acting exercises that engender trust, like where you fall backwards and you hope they catch you. I don't know anything about this. Tell me about the acting exercise. I'm just saying that there are these exercises in acting workshops and everything

where the thing they're trying to do is get you to trust each other. And just like in sports, sports are a very telling thing about people. You got the people who yell at themselves or yell at the other people. You know, you got the people who yell at themselves or yell at the other people or, you know, you can really learn a lot about someone doing a sport. Well, the same thing is true when you're doing,

when you're act, you can, you really start to see what people are all about. And in a way, that's where you can fall in love with people and care about people or vice versa. How much of acting is reacting? Well, I think you'd find a lot of people say that that is acting. Acting is reacting. I did a play recently in London

and there was me, Andy Serkis, and Louisa Harden, just three people. And it was kind of cool. and there was me, Andy Serkis, and Louisa Harlan, just three people. And it was kinda cool, it was the night before we're starting rehearsal on the play. I'm the actor, there's the director, Andy Serkis, and then Louisa Harlan was the writer. And anyway, this buddy of mine, Aunt,

is like, that Louisa is incredible. She was just so in character all the time. And it started me thinking, well, am I in character all the time? Or am I just sometimes just kind of watching the other two there do their thing? Am I still in character when I'm not speaking? You know, like, you see some of these actors who are so gifted at listening

and so compelling when they're listening. You're a great listener. You're a very expressive listener. And that to me is, that's a craft I haven't mastered. And listening generally probably is a craft I have mastered, but certainly on, you but certainly on film, I'm always wanting to do better. How is theater different than movies? Well, I started in theater,

and I feel like theater is what acting is. It's the ultimate in acting, I feel like theater is what acting is. It's the ultimate in acting because you can do a movie and maybe you'll see one or two performances with an audience which is still not the same, but when you are acting and the audience is reacting to you, and in this case, the show we just did was a comedy, a very edgy comedy, but it was a comedy. And to make people laugh, I gotta say,

that's where it all started for me. Yeah, so I love theater, I love it. It's not exactly a lucrative profession, but you know, it really is, it's where the fun is. How different are the performances from night to night? I noticed quite a bit of variance, because a lot of it does depend on the audience, and let's say the audience is not responding to this

at the beginning or that at the beginning and suddenly you're in a different room here. This is a different deal. Or vice versa, like it's a big, they're just reacting huge and suddenly you're just on skates, it's fucking great when that happened and you just feel like, oh, there's no wrong, as opposed to,

suddenly you got walls everywhere. When you're freaked, it's not working. From night to night, do the same jokes get the same laughs or not necessarily? Mostly. Mostly. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty consistent. Most audiences have similar tastes.

But I remember one night we did it, where it was every night standing ovation. When I first did a play in London, I was told, now listen, they're a very muted crowd, they're not gonna stand for you. And luckily it was a great play and it was and that we did get Standing ovations every night that was called on an average day. There's a really good play It's me and Kyle McLaughlin. Oh great who I really I love that guy

I got to track him down because I haven't seen him in ages that's that's an example of the the kind of the weird thing about our profession is you're with someone so intensely and then suddenly, you know. But I saw a picture of him the other day and I was like, I got to track him down. Anyway, so the next play I did was

Tennessee Williams, Night of the Iguana. I hated it. I hated the whole experience. And it was like a six month experience where when you're in a play that you don't like and you don't feel it's working. And by the way, Tennessee Williams, arguably, people say one of the funniest people you ever met,

but he did have this pathos, of course. And he used to, and for this particular play, he felt like he'd accomplished his objective if you, an audience member, felt like you'd been punched in the solar plexus before you left the theater. So it wasn't exactly a laugh a minute, you know? And it went on for like three, three and a half hours. It was long, and it was dread, I hated it.

What made it the bad experience? What made it the bad experience? Was it the script that you didn't like? I didn't think the script was great. By the way, it won the Pulitzer in 1961 or something. It was kind of a comeback script for Tennessee Williams, but by the way, long day's journey in tonight. To this day, Lou you know, by the way, you know, Long Day's Journey and Tonight, to this day, Louisa went straight from the play we were in with her

into Long Day's Journey with Patricia Clarkson and Brian Cox and, you know, it was sold out and people, and by the way, the same director has worked with us, Jeremy, so that's another one. I've never seen it. I read it and I was depressed for two days. worked with us, Jeremy. So that's another one. I've never seen it. I read it and I was depressed for two days from reading it. And I'm just like, I don't wanna do plays

that make you feel bad, that make you feel sad. I will only do comedies from now on. Even though this one is quite an edgy comedy, ultra-American it's called, and it was very edgy and said some things where many nights people walked out of the theater. Based on the language or based on the ideas? Ideas.

Wow. Yeah. Because you didn't see the moral center, but if you didn't walk out, by the end of the play, you see, oh you didn't see the moral center. But if you didn't walk out by the end of the play, you see, oh yeah, it has a moral center. The best work often, people love it or people hate it. Right. The best work divides the audience.

Right, right. Yeah, we did, we actually got to where we were kind of psyched when people walked up. You said earlier you were on stage, you're doing the play, people laughing, and it was one night where it wasn't so good. Yeah. Are you still in the story?

Are you outside of the story and in yourself questioning why it's not working? That's what's happening. So you're no longer in the play. Totally out of the play. You were commenting on or wondering about the situation. Well I've developed a hate relationship to the audience. I hate these fuckers.

How do they not get how funny that was? You know? Maybe they were right, maybe we were off that night. But it literally was only one night and at the end of that performance There was a standing ovation But let's just say it was maybe two-thirds of the audience and a third didn't stand up Yeah, which was to us. I mean it was rough

We all walked off like what the fuck we were just devastated But for some reason and and by the way, a lot of Americans were there that night. It challenges, let's just say, the woke nature of America. I mean, the play takes place in England. I'm an American, but one's English and one is Northern Irish. But it does challenge the whole,

the woke community, let's say. When it starts not working, do you first try harder or no? I try not to try harder. You know, I try to deliver the lines the way they're supposed to be delivered. But maybe, you know, maybe I do push now. I don't know.

By the way, this has happened to me numerous times. But you've been doing theater for a long time. Yeah, yeah. But that's the best play I ever did. David Ireland, phenomenal, phenomenal writer. But that was the only night where there was just a disconnect right down the line. And ironically, it was a night where

so many people I knew had come, which was kinda disappointing. When people come, are you more nervous or? I can't know. I make sure they don't tell me, I make sure Laura doesn't tell me, Laura makes sure it's all hush hush. Sometimes it's difficult because I'll like say, oh, I'm gonna go after the play and do whatever.

And she's like, well, maybe we could just, you know, you know, try to keep me to stay near the theater. So you stay neutral as best as possible for the shows. Yeah, I don't wanna know, because then I'd literally, if you were sitting out there, I'd be like, okay, what did Rick think of that? I might even know where you're sitting and see you, and I'd be like, he didn't laugh at that.

That would take you out of it. Oh shit, he didn't laugh at that at all. Yeah, I just get completely out of it. I'm sure I'm not the only guy like that. Lot of people that way. Have you ever had an experience where it wasn't working with the audience and that felt either okay or even good?

But sometimes comedians bomb and it has an energy of its own that's not totally negative. It's funny that I'm here telling these jokes and people are not reacting. It's almost an inside joke. Like Andy Kaufman. Yeah.

He was great at that. But I don't know, I'm not that type of... Yeah. I like an actual physical laugh. Yeah. Yeah, but like an actual physical laugh. Yeah, but I love watching some of these Andy Kaufman things that are just like, nothing coming back to him. He just keeps going.

That's a happening. That's a performance piece of some higher level that I can't play on that level. And by the way, I thought Jim Carrey when he was, you know, I don't know if you saw the doc and everything, but like, I mean, when he was doing, it was a Milos Forman picture too. Like, you know, he did the one after I did with Milos,

and he was so in character, and I saw him go on shows, I think, I forget. Anyway, he'd go on talk shows and do that kind of anti-humor, you know? And boy, I mean, that's brave, that's brave. It has been cherished in tribal wisdom traditions for thousands of years. Indigenous people the world over It has been cherished in tribal wisdom traditions for thousands of years.

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Well, that was high school. So this is before professional, but when I was in college, I had a breakthrough. Because I didn't know that I was gonna be an actor. It wasn't like everything, you know, just because I did some plays. But I was in college and I did a little part in a couple of plays in college.

The best play that my freshman year, I didn't get a part in, my buddy Clint Allen, who became my best friend, and he got a part in it. He was the only freshman who got a part in it. It was called The Diviners by Jimmy Leonard Jr. And it is a masterpiece play that's been performed all over the country, high schools, colleges. It's a great play. But for me, I didn't do much in my freshman year. I mean, in other words, I did little parts and I wasn't very good. And then I did my sophomore year,

I did a part in this play called Mad Woman of Chaillot, French play, translated into English though. And I played just this, like a sergeant, a police sergeant, and I'd come in from upstage, and I'd just see the mad woman there. Then I'd walk off downstage. So I just did a little, you know, half a loop, right? And that was my first entrance in the play.

I don't say anything. Well, just generally, I felt like I was doing terrible. So I go to the guy, Doug Rogers was the lead in the play, and I said, Doug, what do I do? And he says, well, if you don't like what you're doing, change it. Do a different voice, change your clothes, the way you walk.

I did all of it. I changed the way I walked, I changed my clothes. I took his advice fully. When I did that little loop, that little half loop, the first night there was an audience, you know, 500 people sitting there, ovation. I come off stage and the people were like, what did you do?

And I'm like, I don't know, but I'm gonna do it again tomorrow. And you know, I started talking like this, but in that first entrance, you know, I had that classic kind of, you know, short pant with the white socks and I walked funny, you know, like a little, almost like a penguin or something. I don't know, I was walking weird.

And anyway, it had this unbelievable effect on me, like this profound impact on me when I did that little nonverbal half loop. And I was like, oh, I love this, I love this. It was like your whole thing about creativity. Like I don't know where that creativity comes from, but prior to talking to Doug Rogers and him encouraging me to try stuff,

I wasn't really being creative. You know, I was saying the lines and I was boring as fuck, but when I finally took it upon myself to get creatively invested in the guy, suddenly it went great. And so that was a lesson that hopefully I kept using after that. Not always. So when you're doing comedy in a movie and there's no audience, how do you judge what

works? Well, usually from the crew. The crew laughs? Yeah. The crew will laugh. I mean, they can't laugh while you're rolling, but if they like it at the end of it, you hear it. Not always, you know, so, man, I'll tell you, thank God for the crew.

Because otherwise, I mean, I'm really that kind of guy who needs an audience, you know, before I know, did that work? I mean, I don't know, did that work? I don't know, yeah. I get very, at the end of the take, I'll be like, if the crew didn't react or anything, I'm like, well, to the director, I don't know if that worked, that didn't work, did it?

Should I try something, well, to the director, I don't know if that worked, that didn't work, did it? Should I try something? Do you think of yourself as a comedic actor? I know that that's what I prefer to be. I'll do a drama if it's great, but I much prefer making people laugh. That's great. Have you ever done improv?

I didn't improv. Well, I do improv while doing movies and such. Do a good deal of improv. So ad-libbing. Ad-libbing. But also improvising like big chunks. Like in a lot of the movies I did, like Larry Flan, White Men Can't Jump, Natural Born Killer,

I mean there's a lot of these, I really think there's value in it, because even if it doesn't work, you might find that one little bit that worked great. And also it just feels more real, because it's you thinking and you, I mean that doesn't negate the need for a great script. You can't just improvise a great.

Improvisation happen in the moment or do you think of it in advance? Well, that's not really improv, but yes, that does happen. Like I remember working on, when I did Kingpin and Bill Murray would be in between every take. He'd sit there and he'd have a pen and he'd be thinking, writing shit down. He's not like hanging out, talking.

He's working. He's coming up with new ideas. And then I'm doing the same thing. And those times I haven't, shame on me. And those times I haven't, shame on me. Have you ever broken character and laughed? Oh, yeah, all the time. Speaking of with Bill Murray, he's probably caused it more than any other person.

Just makes you laugh, can't stop. So funny, I just can't not laugh. Yeah. I remember Zombieland, how many takes we ruined because me and Jesse Eisenberg and Emma Stone, like we're all laughing. It's very hard to not laugh at Bill Murray. I mean, he's just, he's such a high level of funny.

But as for actual improv, getting up on stage, doing improv, I did go, it was in Ireland, there were several great stand up and also improv comedians there. And so they were doing a show and they said, do you wanna come and get up? Well I got up, I can tell you I was Terrible I mean terrible. I was just too nervous. I in the in your among people who are just so

Great at their craft and this is the craft that really I don't think you know even though I'm good at improv in that situation of say doing a movie where you're on set and I tend to be good at that, this is a whole nother level when there's an audience right there and then I hadn't learned the whole yes and. I didn't know anything about, at least I've studied it in the sense

of I've learned about it and what's his name, Del? Del Close. Yeah, like I've studied it in the sense of I've learned about it. And what's his name, Dell? Dell Close. Yeah, you know, like I've studied it because it's a fascinating thing to me, but I would never get up on stage and improvise now because I know I can't. I mean, I could if I probably, you know, if I took a class and worked it.

It would just take work. It just takes work. Yeah, did the work, but if not, I could never do that. In a movie where there are a lot of takes, how different would your performance be from take to take? Funny, I was just working on this thing. They're having like a 50th anniversary of Hustler Magazine and they wanted me to do a forward for Larry,

who I tell you what, I really came to love this guy. You got to meet him? Oh yeah, because as I say in the thing, I was like, I was really torn because, well I grew up in Texas, but then we moved to Ohio when I was 12 and then I'm in Ohio and while I was there this obscenity trial happened for Larry Flan, you talk about when the press decides to go after somebody and

all the press is negative well you just absorb it you can't help but think they're right it's the devil incarnate, you know what I mean? So I absorbed all that, because I was right there near Cincinnati where he was having his obscenity trial. So when the time came and I got offered by one of the greatest directors of all time, Milo Shorman, to do the part,

and I was like, Jesus, this is a quandary. I gotta go meet him. If I like him, I'll do it. If I don't like him, I won't do it. So I went up to Larry Front Enterprises up there at the penthouse of this Wilshire and La Cienega around there. And I went up to those offices and I met him.

And within five minutes I'm like, not only am I doing the movie, I think this is one of the most unique, incredible humans I've ever met. Honesty, like I've never seen from anyone. What do you know about his story? Well, he grew up in Kentucky and his parents, they did moonshine and he grew up dirt poor, I mean poor.

Him and Jimmy Flint, they were extremely poor. And he was looking at a playboy and he's like, it just looks so fake and not you know, it's some degree of authenticity that they're losing with this and He'd already had these little clubs, you know where he'd had dancers But then he decided to start hustler magazine It became successful and it became a real political tool for him, you know, there's a lot about that Magazine I don't like but there's also a lot I admire because he was bold and he was fighting for

First Amendment rights and You know, he's saying hey, you know, they take it away from me They'll take it away from you and you look take it away from you. And you look how it's, you know, now you have the Trusted News Initiative. It's called TNI, Trusted News Initiative. Now it began the last election, it started with the BBC, but then all Western media, all mainstream media, and also worldwide joined on this initiative,

try to keep foreign influence out of the election, particularly obviously Russia. Well, who couldn't agree that that's a good idea? But then after the election, they didn't just disband. Then they started focusing on other things. So anything that promoted vaccine hesitancy, anything that questioned the COVID narrative of how, you know, people were getting sick, anything that questioned 5G, you know, there were certain major areas like that where any of those things

will not be in mainstream media, period, excised. And I can't tell you how many videos I sent to friends, and man, this is incredible, watch this video, because it's someone kind of debunking the way they're, the debunking the vaccine or the COVID narrative and gone. Before they could watch it, it was already gone, right? You know, all over mainstream media, everywhere you see it. Or like to this day, you won't hear one positive thing

said about Bobby Kennedy Jr. Nothing, not a word in mainstream media. I don't hear one positive thing said about Bobby Kennedy Jr., nothing. Not a word in mainstream media. But you will see a lot of, you'll see negative, usually they don't mention them at all, but when they mention them, it's negative. It's like a worm in the brain. Oh, he said the worm in the brain thing, he was, what do you call it, a deposition.

And the lawyer was asking him about his voice impediment or something, and he said that a doctor had made some suppositions. Among them, maybe it has to do with a parasite in the brain. He didn't say it. He's saying- That the doctor said it to him. In the deposition that the doctor said,

and now people think he just recently said this thing, I got a worm in my brain. And then they ridicule him. Well, that's the way the mainstream media works now. It's all a part of the TNI has become censorship at the highest level, I mean, worldwide. How did you first meet Bobby Kennedy? I met him on a plane, and he ridiculed my,

I had hemp shoes on, this is many years ago. They probably were ugly, but then that started just in a little, yeah, made fun of my shoes, and then he and I had a little terse exchange, and then we ended up becoming friends and that was a five-hour flight. So by the end of it we were in on good terms. L, M, N, T. Element electrolytes. Have you ever felt dehydrated after an intense workout or a long day in the sun? Do you want to maximize your endurance and feel your best?

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Element electrolytes are sugar-free, keto-friendly, and great tasting. Minerals are the stuff of life. So visit drinklmnt.com slash tetra and stay salty with Element Electrolyte LMNT. Larry Flint was the first person that you came across who was portrayed in a negative way in the media, and then you met him and you realized you weren't getting a straight story. Yeah, for sure. That was a straight shooter, an honest man.

Yeah, whether you like pornography, you hate pornography, whether you think a pornographer is... This was one of the most honest guys I ever met. He would just tell it like it is. Was he in the wheelchair when you met him? Yeah. How did that happen? Well, it actually was shortly after he offered a million dollars for any information leading to the JFK assassination.

They tried to assassinate him. Why was he interested in that? He was interested in all kinds of political stuff. He was bold and he was a thorn in the side of the state. Anyway, so shortly after that, they tried to assassinate him and the only reason he didn't die is because he had been fasting for two days. Because otherwise, because it shot into his intestine and it would have leaked and just,

it would have killed him. At least this is what the doctor said at the time, but that he was fasting. But it did hit his, it caused a nerve damage. Then he was in excruciating pain. The doctors decided to cut that nerve to get rid of the pain, but then there was never a chance that he would walk again after that. Wow.

Did they ever catch the assassin? Well, someone admitted to it. Someone who was already in prison for life admitted to it. You find the government makes this happen quite a lot. I'm not saying the government was involved, but I think the government was involved, yeah. Wow. A lot of times someone who's in prison,

they're not getting out anyway. You find they'll be, oh yeah, I did that. That was me. Tell me about Milos. Milos was one of the great directors I've ever worked with and one of the great directors I think who's ever lived. Up there with the true greats like Scorsese. He was great, he was like a Papa bear.

Ah, Woody! Give me a hug in the morning, you know, and just like had that, like I say, that family, and this was a dysfunctional family, yeah. Courtney Love and Ed Norton. Mm-hmm. And how was the experience of making that movie? It's one of the great experiences, for sure, I ever had.

And I still love Courtney and Ed. So I feel like maybe that could be the best movie I ever made. And it might, at the end of my life, be the best movie I ever made and it might at the end of my life be the best movie I ever made. I just, I got to work with one of the goats. Yeah. Yeah. How different are the different directors

you've gotten to work with? You got to work with so many interesting people. They're all quite different. But I feel like the greatest ones are very open to, okay, let's try this. Milos let me, there was a whole scene that he let me direct and edit. I was in the editing bay.

And not only that, it was like where Larry Flint is talking about, oh, obscenity, you know, they say this is obscene, a woman's breast or whatever, but meanwhile, you can watch Murder, you know, all day long on television, or This Is Okay, and you know, show a scene from Vietnam, which at that point was, I think it was just after Vietnam. Vietnam ended in 75.

So, you know, obviously he's gonna have the last say on everything, but he let me kind of put this whole thing together. Because it's Larry Flint's on a stage and there's these images behind him, and so what those images were. I actually went as far as negotiating with agents of photographers.

Can we use that? How much? But what I was gonna say was, because you originally asked me how different these improvised things end up being, how different a scene will be. And there's a scene where I propose to Courtney's character, she played Althea Flint, and we're in a jacuzzi.

And I had been very anxious about the fact that the scene was gonna be shot just one camera one way, but we were used to improvising because that was the thing Milos got me doing is he got me with countless actresses, like Holly Hunter, like to me, she's like a titan. Like all these different actresses came in and I would act with them

and we'd improvise stuff and we'd try stuff. And it was many months before we finally shot it, you know? So that when that scene, he finally showed me three completely different scenes of the proposal. So it did change quite a bit. And my God, it was a blissful experience. It's like to me, you talk about, like in your book, about that whole creative thing.

There was so much creative energy in that movie, from actors to DP, to director, I don't know, I felt like it really, I love how it turned out, I haven't seen it in a long time. It speaks to Milos's self-confidence. He knew he could allow you to try something and go as far as he could with it, but he wasn't afraid of trying something new.

Mm-hmm. He was that guy. He was so confident about that kind of thing. So, he just wasn't risk adverse, as you might say. Did Larry get to see the movie finished? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. He loved it. He did?

Yeah. That's great. He did? Yeah. That's great. It was a beautiful film. It was like, you know, a lot of it having to do with his love for Althea. How was it different playing a real person versus a fictional character? Definitely put somewhat of a burden of, you know,

like I remember, because there was an obscenity trial in Cincinnati and Larry played the judge, who by the way, he hated this guy. He was terrible, you know, very conservative, prejudiced judge, right? So I just got a little self-conscious being Larry in front of Larry, you know? Yeah.

But yeah, turned out good. Have you ever had to compete to get a part? Yeah. What's that like? Well, I mean, that's the whole beginning of every actor's career. You know, you're lucky if eventually you don't have to audition anymore,

but auditioning is... That is a whole other animal. I had a hard time with it. The times that I was finally able to break free had to do with kind of artificial means, like, for example, when I was auditioning for the first major, major audition that really helped change the course of my life was for Biloxi Blues,

Neil Simon, and without getting into a lot of detail I was I'd had a terrible fight and anyway I was leaving New York right then I was gonna go back to Ohio and write a play and then with that play I was gonna come back to New York and you know he, a lot of people had this dream. But anyway, that's what I, finally I'd had it. New York won. New York won, I lost. I was going back to where my mom was living

in Lebanon, Ohio. Now I had an agent at that point. Getting the agent was a very tough deal, but she sent me on one last audition. And that audition was for a Neil Simon play, Biloxi Blues. And when I went in to audition for the casting person, I didn't know that Neil Simon was sitting

in the back of the, because I was auditioning for an understudy role. Like, what playwright of his renown is gonna be sitting in the theater watching? Well, luckily he was, and so it went well. And by the way, it only went well because, well, I'm outta here, you know what I mean? I'm leaving, I give up.

I'm done. There's nothing you can do to me. That's really interesting. It's really crucial. The other time it happened was equally crucial. But anyway, so then I get called back in. I was understudying two roles, and I mean, I gotta say, I did well.

And then later that day day they called me, you got it. And every one of those people were looking at their, you know, whoever they were understudy and then they might have been quite pissed off. Many of them felt they could do better than the person. Me, I was happy as could be. I auditioned for the understudy. I got the understudy. And by the way, both of those guys are doing that part better than I could do it. So I was happy.

And then the other time was when I auditioned for Cheers. Because at that point, I told you I'd been doing the play and I got a little sabbatical from the play to go do the Goldie Hawn movie. And someone kind of filled in for me. And then both of the guys got fired, who I was understudying in the Neil Simon play. They got fired.

It was on Broadway in the Neil Simon Theater, right? It was my dream. Like also, I was a fanatical fan, and still am, of Neil Simon. So they got fired and they called me, can you gonna be able to come back and play the part? Oh yeah, baby, I was 23, it was my dream come true, to be on Broadway Neil Simon play

Well, then I auditioned for Cheers If I got it great, but I'm already gonna be on Broadway Like it didn't matter to me. Like I didn't realize what a huge life change it was gonna be and how important it would be to my I Can't imagine that and not having been in my life now, but at the time I was like, no problem. I'll go do- I'm doing this other thing.

Yeah, I'll go do Broadway. That's my dream anyway. I don't wanna do television. So when I went in for that audition, I was really free. But it was fun in the audition. Laurie Opendum was the casting person there at Paramount that she worked for NBC. But anyway, I went in and I auditioned for her

and she was like, I could tell she was like, whoa. Now they'd almost cast the guy. He was pretty much locked in, he was gonna play Woody. But I went in and, you know, like I say, what do I care? You know, I'm sad. I'm nothing to lose. And by the way, that's the thing that kills people in auditions is their desperation.

But when you go in and you got nothing to lose, so is it freeing? It's like freeing yourself from the inertia of like, I gotta get this, you know? And then I did well with Lori and she's like, can you come with me and I follow her? And you know, we went through a door and it seemed like we went through another door

and I don't know when we're going into the room with the people, which ended up being Jimmy Burrows and the Charles Brothers and everybody. And just before we entered that room, I had a runny nose, you know? And as she opens the door going into the room, honk, you know, from blowing my nose. Amazing.

And the entire room just burst out laughing. Amazing. And it was a complete mistake, you know what I mean? It was accidental. And Jimmy told me later, you had the part at that moment. You had the part. Had to blow your nose. The universe was intervening.

Yeah, I don't know, maybe. Amazing. I mean, don't you feel like there's a universal intervention with creative acts? Absolutely, all the time. And when you come to realize that's what it is, you start seeing it happens all the time. Right, right.

If you're not paying attention, it'll just go by because business is usual. Right. But when you pay attention, so many little details that could have gone a different way just kind of fall into place. But the not paying attention is like distraction by fear or doubt. Yeah.

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Macadamias, no wheat, no dairy, no gluten, no GMOs, no preservatives, no palm oil, no added sugar. House of macadamias. I roasted with Namibian sea salt, cracked black pepper, and chocolate dips. Snack bars come in chocolate, coconut white How much of your life outside of your work informs your work? I think there are some people who live in a bubble. But I do feel like I get a lot of time among, you know, just regular folks. So I feel like it is important to try to not be too trapped inside your bubble. Sure you're gonna have a bit of a bubble just because of the nature of,

we're in a very rarefied area, we're lucky. I remember seeing a guy, oh yeah, recently, in Copenhagen. You know, he was working. So he was being pulled away to work, but I just wanted to keep talking to him, because I'm like, there are things this guy's doing that I have to, this is a character.

You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Like you can get cues out in the world if you're paying attention. If you're not open to it, it'll all just go by. But it's always there. Yeah, it's like a classic example is when Mick Jagger was in line,

or I don't forget it was him or Keith Richards, they were in line and they get up to the thing and they ask for something that they didn't have and the guy goes, you can't always get what you want. He's like, you know, that's not bad. Good phrase. Yeah. Can you think of any examples of something

that you saw out in the world that ended up happening in one of your characters? Oh my God, it's happened a lot. I remember one time I was following my brother on the motorcycle and then we got to wherever we were going and he took off his helmet and he had this long, blonde hair down to almost his shoulders and he kind of shook his head and I'm like,

and I had just gotten the part for Hamich for Hunger Games. And I was like, that's the hair. Luckily with me, I can have anything. Any hair you want. Or no hair at all, of course I can do that. But just things people say, or yeah, I use that stuff all the time. I find little things all the time

that are helpful out in the world. In the middle of a performance, are you aware of what you're doing technically or do you just disappear into the character? No, if I'm aware, I'm fucked. You're just in it. I'm just in it. You know, I don't want something to be preordained.

I know you're that way. I know you're like, you don't wanna get bogged down in the technical, you're in the creative. You're in the, you know, you're a listener. If you're reading a script that you know you're gonna do, what's the process of preparing from an early script read till you get to the point of playing your character? What are all the things that you do?

You know, whatever the profession is, I might study that profession as much as possible. You know, like, maybe I'll play this truck driver. So, you know, I'd probably go hang out with truck drivers. I'd study, read any book about truck drivers. You know, talking to the designer about clothes and how this would work and what about a scarf or, you know, I don't know, it's not necessarily a scarf

for a truck driver. But you know, like, what about this hat or that? You know, just start thinking of the external things that maybe I want to talk like just a little different, you know, I might want to try some funny shit with the way I talk or the way I, you know, I don't know, I just try to get into the head space of a truck driver in this case.

So in that sense, I might read a dozen books. I remember when I was playing in Natural Born Killers. I studied all those motherfuckers, Gacy Manson, and read his autobiography, saw documentary after documentary, everything I could could try to, and that was an unpleasant time. I didn't like it at all. But they all have a commonality.

You know, they all had fucked up unloved childhoods. You know, all of them. And I imagine all those people today who commit the school shootings, they never got any love. Not at home, not at school, and they just developed this hate toward everybody. But, you know, just try to get in the head space.

Tell me the story of Natural Born Killers. Well, it was kind of weird because I was on Cheers. I was on the final season of Cheers. I didn't realize that it was that close to Cheers. Yeah, I was cast while I was still on Cheers. Amazing. And all I'd done that he might have seen was, let me think, yeah, he could have seen White Men Can't Jump.

What hadn't come out yet was Indecent Proposal. But he might have seen out, White Men Can't Jump and he certainly had seen Cheers, but there was no real logic to him casting me, but he just said something in my eyes where he thought I could be a convincing serial killer. You remember your first meeting with Oliver? Well, I had met Oliver years before because he was doing this first movie, the movie that made him a celebrated director,

and he was auditioning people, and this was before I'd done anything, and I came in and he brought me in a few times, and he had me do improv and different things, and then the money fell out, and by the time he finally got the money together, I was on cheers, and I came in again. And he's like, this is how the meeting went.

I'm sitting there and he goes, you're doing a television show. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, Cheers. He goes, but then you're not available. What are you doing in my office? I'm like, okay. Literally, okay, sorry. Good meeting. Left.

That was the next time I'd met him after those earlier auditions. Then, you know, later on, I get word he wants me to be in Natural Born Killers. And I remember like a year before, having been greatly enamored of him as a director, I mean I thought JFK was just a freaking masterpiece. Well not to mention everything he does, phenomenal.

Masterpiece. And I'd seen, he was on the cover of Newsweek, just to show you how the censorship works in America. And it was like, it said JFK, but you know, it had a picture of him and JFK and something where he was doubting the verisimilitude of what was in the movie in the front page of Newsweek I believe it was Anyway, he was sitting on that table. We were living in Malibu at the time and I remember looking at Lord God I'd love to work with that guy

And then it was only like two years later I'd say I get a thing and he wants me to do it, and boy was I psyched to work with him. I bet. I felt like the script needed a lot of work. It was a Quentin Tarantino script, which I do admire Quentin Tarantino, but that particular script, it had some issues. Was that his first script?

No, I think he'd done other scripts, but he wasn't Quentin Tarantino yet. He hadn't directed anything yet. Yeah, I don't think he'd done his big debut. But, you know, so as soon as we wrapped Cheers, the final episode, Indecent Proposal came out, and I started working on Natural Born Killers, all at the same time.

It's an unbelievable trajectory. Cause at that point in time, going from television to movies didn't happen so often. No, that was, in fact, I was six years where I couldn't get anything. You were thought of as a TV actor. Well, also a very specific kind of, you know, like I play dumb characters in my own view, naive.

But you know, trusting. But you know, I'm playing these characters, a specific type of character, and I'm on obviously a very popular show, and even like Friends, you know, you expect every one of those guys to go on to big careers because they're all fucking great. So it just shows of how the difficulty of the transition,

I mean even to this day, it's tough. But back then it was very rare. You know, guys like Michael J. Fox and Bruce Willis and, you know, Michael Douglas had done it. You know, but it was like, literally, it was a handful of people. Are you aware of any practices you do that you don't know any other actors who do?

No, I think everybody upstages. LAUGHS And everybody, a lot of people chew the scenery. No, I don't have any... I can't say I do anything unique, but my belief about acting is... It's kind of like you talk about in your book, you know, like everybody has that creative instinct. It's in all of us, you know? Question

is how do you clear the path? So I feel like the same is true for acting. Like, you just think how many interesting people there are, and oh, if they can only do that when a camera's rolling. But what happens is they say rolling, and just immediately the sphincter goes, you know? And just, you get, it's the nervousness and the fear and the doubting and all of those understandable emotions that come up that keep a person from necessarily

being able to do what they could do. And like my suggestion, for example, my daughter, right? Like now I have three daughters and each one of them have tried their hand at acting and I will say there's nothing you want less than your child to go into this profession. You know there's going to be disappointment and just sometimes it's going to be heartbreaking but she's going for it. And kind of like the thing I feel with her is like, hey, do yoga.

The big thing you need to do is just to be as relaxed as you can so you can be in a state of basically dynamic relaxation where you're active but also relaxed at the same time. And you might be in a very intense scene, but there's underneath it, the root of it, has certain relaxation element. And I do feel like that's a crucial thing, you know?

Whenever I've, you know, they're rolling and I'm just tense, it just doesn't fucking work, man. Have you gotten better at being able to be relaxed in any situation? Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And it just comes with time, right? Yeah.

I mean, even back when I first went on Cheers in the very first scene, you know, I come out, now I'm conscious of the fact that I'm replacing this beloved actor, Nick Calasanto, who, you know, had died, which is the only reason I'm able to do this part. And I'm waiting off stage. And then it's also a beloved show show beloved actor on one of the most

you know, maybe the heart of the show according to Ted dancing and You know, I'm waiting off for the red light off stage He tells me to walk into the bar and I'm tuck the level of nerves is Insanity insane And also it's 500 people or more in the audience, the live audience, not to mention there's gonna be a million watching it at home later. So the pressure was crazy. And if it hadn't been for my theater experience

and doing all those plays in college, I couldn't have done it. I mean, I just couldn't have done it if I didn't have some kind of, that kind of backbone, like you say, you know, just the work. ["The Tartar House"] What may fall within the sphere of tetragrammaton? Counterculture? Tetragrammaton.

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Ancient wisdom for a new age. Upon entering, experience the artwork of the day. Take a breath and see where you are drawn. Theatragramadin.com What's the most you've ever had to change yourself for a character that you've played? Either physically or having to learn something difficult? It might've been LBJ, cause I got, you know, there was good deal of prosthetics, which I thought they did a good job with the prosthetics, but I also, it's ironic cause he's also a Texan, but he was from the Hill country.

And so just even though- Different accent. Yeah, he was from the hill country and so just even though. Different accent. Yeah, he was a different accent even though it's so similar because it's still Texan, you know, but oh my God, that used to mess with me, like trying to get his, the way he would talk and his cadence and everything and try to move like him, oh my God. Would you listen to recordings of him?

Is that the way to do it? Constant, constant my God. Would you listen to recordings of him? Is that the way to do it? Constant, constant, constant. Like, when I'm in the makeup chair every single day, you know, I'd listen to his phone calls because he recorded all of his phone calls. The only call that got erased was the very first day that he was in office, November 22nd, 1963, between him and J. Edgar Hoover. So right after the assassination. Yeah, he came to the Oval Office

and he had a conversation with Hoover, which was recorded. And he's the only one deleted, but he did have a conversation with them seven days later. He was talking about forming the Warren Commission, which was a method to get rid of the Senate and House investigations. There were two investigations that were going on, and they managed to get rid of those because they started the Warren Commission. And the Warren Commission, and at the time of that phone call,

which was literally one week later, the FBI report was on his desk. So what is that, six days they'd done it, because this was the seventh, this is 29th, and there was that report on his desk saying, oh, lone gunman, this one crazy guy, spent a lot of time in Russia. And the Warren Commission was just to rubber stamp that.

And who controlled that? It wasn't Chief Warren, Earl Warren was busy with the Supreme Court. No, Alan Delulles created the CIA and certainly influential in, shall we say, the demise of JFK. But anyway, in the course of that conversation, when I listened to that, I was like,

oh, LBJ was definitely involved, no question. I listened to that, I was like, oh, LBJ was definitely involved. No question. I listened to that many times, but I know I got off base because I always like to just say how fucked our government is. But anyway, yeah, I used to listen constantly to them and that was what was actually harder. Would have been easier to speak

with like a French accent or something, just because. It was close. It was too close. And these little jumps, oh, well, he says this like that instead of, you know, that took a lot of work. But I loved that film, Rob Reiner. I love it.

I think he did a great job. Tell me about Rob Reiner. What was it like working with him? He's amazing, man. I was, I'm nuts about Rob Reiner. Did Rob believe that LBJ was involved? I don't recall him ever saying that. I don't think he did.

And by the way, you know, it was well after I was saying that. I don't think he did. And by the way, you know, it was well after I was committed before I developed that belief or I don't think I would have done it. Yeah. Did you play him like he might've done it? No, I didn't. I did not. And you know, there's a part of me

that wanted to address the elephant in the room, but it just would have made it a whole nother movie. That's not what the movie was about. The movie was about LBJ did some good shit. He got the Voting Rights Act through. He was a guy who got shit done. He was the head of the Senate for so long.

And he was a true political operator. And then of course he became, when he was vice president to JFK, he didn't like JFK and the Kennedys didn't like him. But they were put together so that JFK could win? Was that part of it? Well, it was JFK's idea, I believe, because JFK knew he needed the South

and he thought LB knew he needed the South and he Thought LBJ could deliver the South but once LBJ became vice president all of his power went away and he just became Almost ignored. You know what? I mean, he was ignored by the Kennedy certainly, but he did Unbelievable legislation once he became president. He got a lot of shit through. Tell me about the types of conversations you have with a director. It's usually in the beginning about the script. I always take notes on scripts and I think good notes. Constantly reading every day, every single day,

usually several times throughout the day, I'm reading books. But I also- What kind of books do you read? Just all kinds of books, all kinds. Like right now, I'm reading, well, I'm kind of reading two books. I'm reading interviews with Fellini, but I'm also reading this book.

It's called The Russian Tradition, which is really fascinating. I've learned a lot already. Well, that's more of a historic, I like reading, I like reading, you know, historical stuff or biographies or. What percentage of the things you read are for work versus not?

If I'm getting ready to work, it's all that. But if you don't have a job to prepare for in that moment, you're free and just read what's interesting to you? Yeah, yeah. Tell me the extremes of your involvement in a project beyond the acting performance. Well, I'm very involved in the script. If the script is great, hallelujah,

but frequently there's a lot needs doing with the script. Would you ask questions like, why is this character saying this or what's supposed to be happening here? Or this plot point doesn't work? Yeah, yeah, all of that. You know, like I did a movie with Will Smith and Will Smith probably one of the most impressive careers

in terms of just going from success to success. You know, I mean, probably no one has a better career than Tom Cruise or Leo DiCaprio, but almost there. You know, like success to success. You know, when I worked with him, he was like, always about, like when we were doing rehearsal, what can we do to get more emotional charge into this scene? You know, he's just really smart that way

and relentless in terms of his pursuit. That's great. That affected me. I wanna always figure out how can this thing could be better if we just, why don't we see this thing? It happens off state, that's interesting. You know, like those kinds of things. You know, like when you see a lot of scripts,

so many scripts over the years, eventually you start to get a handle on what it is it might need, you know? By the time you're shooting the first scene of a movie, would you say you have your character completely worked out or might he still change as the shooting goes on? I don't know if it's not worked out or it's just complete doubt.

The night before I shoot any movie, I'm flooded with doubt, I'm awake through the night, and I mean, it's still, I'm 63 years old, right? I don't even understand it myself. How the fuck am I still so insecure? It's because you want it to be good. I do. That's why you want it to be good.

And it's scary. You're not free. You care about the outcome, so you're invested. Yeah. So you have doubt that first day. Does the doubt go away at the end of the first day typically? It usually starts to diminish after the first take. And then, you know, like after a few takes, you know,

I might be completely calmed down by the time we get that first take in the can, you know? And then, you know, after the next day, I might have a little more, and then by the third day or something, there's my old somewhat confident self. You know, I'm starting work in a week, right? Like I know, and this is a sequel

that I've done two other, you know, it's a, now you see me three. And it's just like, I love the same character, most of the same cast. But I know that the night before I won't sleep, I'll be tossing and turning, I'll be freaking out. And I'll be completely well versed with the scene I'm about to shoot, but I'll just be, I don't know why, but it just something in me. And that's probably the best version of it when you've already worked on two,

you're showing up to something very familiar. Well, the character's familiar, but the scene is obviously unique. Yeah. And I guess that's where the trepidation, you know. Yeah. How is doing sequels or trilogies different than a first time movie? Yeah, I mean, like I did the Hunger Games,

I got to do four movies. I mean, you eventually do adopt a great familiarity with the other actors, the director maybe, if it's the same director. This is not the same director for Now You See Me Three, but I've worked with him several times, Ruben Fleischer, and he's phenomenal. He did Zombieland one and two.

Oh, great, great. He did the first Venom, he cast me in that. Great. He's great. So you're trusting the director is a lot of what kind of mollifies that trepidation. And the other actors. Jesse Eisenberg, man, that guy's a fucking genius, man. He's a genius. He's so great. I love him. Love him. So I'm psyched to see him, Dave Franco.

Yeah, no, it's gonna be a great experience. What are your all time favorite movies? My all time favorite movie is Cool Hand Luke. I don't know why, you know? A guy who's been wronged by the system, a rebel. How old were you when you first saw it? Geez, I don't know, I think I must have been. Kid. Yeah, in my teens.

Yeah. Tell me the story of the movie that you directed that was all shot in one night. What's it called? Lost in London. Tell me the story from the beginning. I'd been writing on that Lost in London, and I'd also been writing on this other thing, which I never have followed through on yet,

called The Misadventures of Mr. Fitz, because I still have to rewrite the last third of that movie. But what I liked about the idea of doing that is I thought, I became kind of mystified and fascinated by these one take movies, like Veronica, because I'm fascinated by theater. Veronica, because I'm fascinated by theater.

I'm fascinated by a sidewalk painting. You see that sidewalk painting? They're gonna wash that away, it won't be there tomorrow. So you're just seeing in the moment something that is kinda unique, you know? So I came to think that how cool it would be because I saw a way that I could do this Lost in London in one take. It was based on stuff that had actually happened to me

in London, including getting arrested and some stuff with the tablet. Different things happened and all of it kinda, I could see how you could make it into a, well at least one take. And then it became, well, I was thinking multiple cameras but then it'd be like, no, one camera. So it became a one camera thing and then I was sitting talking with my buddy Tom Kartzost and Tom goes,

wait, why don't you just shoot it and live stream it into theaters while it happens? Well, this had never been done before. I didn't even know it could be done. Well, it couldn't because I went to different people and they were all saying, no, it can't be done. No, you can do like, they'd had the thing where you're showing a-

Like a boxing match, a pay-per-view. Well, yeah, like that, but certainly also, like in the theater where you're seeing a play, but that's all in one location. Like filming the performance of a stage play. Of a stage play, and live streamed into a theater while doing it. Okay, but that's a whole different thing because this had 14 different locations. This had like five

different vehicles, a police van. A lot to go wrong. A lot to go wrong. And also there was something to do with line of sight where if you're outdoors, you need to be able, the antenna needs to get to the big antenna on top of this building. To be able to stream it live. Stream it live into the United States. It shot at like three in the morning. And so the sound thing was fucked. You know, it just wasn't working.

And also even the live feed the night before we shot went out for 45 minutes. Like if this happens tomorrow, we're done. It's a disaster. The same thing with the sound just never got worked out. And then finally at the last minute, my buddy Ant did the music, which also had to be played in live,

even though recorded stuff, but played in live. And sometimes he would add stuff to it live. You didn't do it to a stopwatch, or did you? We'd only had run throughs twice before. We did two the night before, that's what it was. I see. And then we did.

The one. That night. Yeah. Yeah, it was, I was freaking out. I said, Aunt, find the guy who is the guy these sound guy who can figure out this thing there was like a pack and That was carried on the back at all these different antennas shooting out in that but the guy who was the camera guy you know had that on his back and then if we got into a

Taxi, whatever then he gets in on the other, you know, like that on his back. And then if we got into a taxi, whatever, then he gets in on the other side. You know, like all this technical shit was kind of, eventually it was affecting my health, you know? He's not able to sleep and it was very, very difficult. How long did you have to plan it for to be able to make it happen in that one shot? Two months.

I mean, you know, there was a lot of work on the script up to the beginning of that two month period, but the rehearsal and then the cameras following and all of that was a couple of months. Then the day of the, when we're going to do it that night in the late afternoon, when we're gonna do it that night, in the late afternoon, we were using Waterloo Bridge for the final scene, very important, you know. And we had, you know, cops helping us and stuff, but they say that we've discovered a unexploded World War II ordinance, a bomb right next to Waterloo bridge they're shutting down the bridge

the bridge that's been open since World War two since World War two is being shut down to shut down hours before you know well whatever maybe eight hours before we're filming or seven hours before and I'm like that's insane well they'd sent the Navy sending a barge, they're gonna pick it up, they're gonna put it on the barge, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was so exhausted at that point, so sleep deprived, that I was outside.

We finished all whatever rehearsals and everything, and I'm like, I had to go sleep. So when I went to go to sleep, that was still the issue. And then I woke up to go finally do the thing. So this must have been maybe like 10 o'clock or something. It was still an issue. Wow. And I'm like trying to figure out,

who knows the head of the Navy? You know, like I was so freaked. What am I gonna do? I don't know what to do. If we don't have that location, it's all blocked out there, you know? Well, then I wake up, you know, I don't know, probably midnight or something,

you go one o'clock, and then as we're walking toward getting ready to shoot the first thing, the first AD says to me, we got that worked out. They got the bomb. That's great. And by the way, at the time, I'm just like, okay. Like, I never liked Hitler, but now it's personal.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, they finally, they got it taken away and we got to use the bridge. There's still, I gotta say, there's a million things I would have done different, you know,

that I thought of after. I still to this day will think of this or that thing I should have done, but it was a noble experiment. And now, because I'm gonna do another one and I think I'll do it in Copenhagen, it'll be live and with Lord Nern. Great. And yeah, so. It sounds like a really cool new format.

It's just an exciting new way to make something. Yeah, it's the perfect convergence of theater and film. Yeah. When you leave the set at the end of the day, can you leave the character behind, or does some of the character come with you during the whole time you're shooting? Depends, you know.

Sometimes, like with MBK, I think I got very immersed, you know? And I remember going one time, I think it was in Chicago or somewhere, went to dinner after, and there's these people were smoking cigars. I think this was in Paris and I was promoting NBK. Yeah. Man, that took me a minute to shake. It sent me into a dark kinda,

I really did a lot of shadow work. Anyway, I go to this restaurant and they're smoking cigars after they eat. This is back when people still smoked in restaurants and such. But you know how cigars are another level of, although you're about to become a cigar smoker. But, and so I went over to the two men that were sitting,

like I was at a long table with Oliver Stone and certainly a number of models. You know, Oliver. And anyways, I go over to the people and I'm like, listen, we're still eating, would you mind, you know, putting out your cigars? And I remember the guy going, how rude! And I'm like, oh you think that's rude?

And I grab his cigar and I just fucking put it out right in front of him, right? Well, you'd have thought I'd have shot his child or something, he was so freaked out. And he starts screaming. And anyway, I end up just leaving the restaurant. And I didn't wait for the police, you know? But I had a hard time shaking the effect of...

But generally, I don't have a hard time, and I shut it right off. You know, that's if it's some kind of negative character like that. Do you feel like you've been changed by any of the characters you've played? and I shut it right off. You know, that's if it's some kind of negative character like that. Do you feel like you've been changed by any of the characters you've played? I think playing Larry changed me. Because it was after playing Larry that I did the thing on the Golden Gate Bridge where

I protested. We climbed up the Golden Gate Bridge to protest the logging of the ancient redwoods in Northern California. And I don't think I would have done that kind of shit. I got arrested for planting hemp seeds in Kentucky. All of that was influenced by playing Larry Flint. So you saw his courage. Yeah.

And... Made me want to, you know... Take action. Take action. Wow. And now I think I'm just a fucking pussy. You know, like an armchair activist. Speaking of which, tell me about your

Saturday Night Live monologue. Oh that. Well, you know, well, you know, I'm gonna write my own thing. I learned a long time ago, you better write your own thing. Otherwise you get something on a Friday, you get a liver on a Saturday you may not love. So, you know, I was working on it,

but then I was like, I gotta figure out weaving in this message. And did you do it in the rehearsal and you were able to get it through or did it change at all for the live? I had the thing written before I came, but it was long. Yeah. It was quite long. It's probably the first reading of it

at the first reading in New York was maybe 12 minutes. And how long is it supposed to be like five or six? Yeah, you don't want it to be more than five minutes. Well, I got it down, kept cutting stuff out and they did ask me, Jim, the right hand guy to Lauren, come on man, how's it gonna help you? How's it gonna, well, it's not gonna help me but it's like, there's not gonna help me but it's like

There's no other way to express it because if I've expressed it in some kind of news thing They just cut it out. You know what I mean, but to do it live very hard to cut out So I felt like it was the right opportunity I wanted to express how I thought it was bullshit. I didn't quite do it right. I should have finished it a little different because the thing was, it was this script that I kept dragging it out, talking about this script. And then I finally, I read the script and I'm like, it's about these drug dealers who just insist

that everybody takes their drugs or they can't leave their house or whatever. And what I should have said at the end, I forget how I ended it, but I should have said, although it's a great business model, I mean, who's gonna buy that? Maybe Hollywood. And even a year and a half ago,

a movie I did called Fly Me to the Moon, right? Which was with Scarlett Johansson and Channing Tatum. It's out now, by the way. It's a really great movie, wonderful, really well done. So I think it was the beginning of 2020, still every single person on that production was vaccinated. Literally, whatever, 150 people, 200 people, except one.

And then they said, you know, when I get my papers, they're like, and send us your vaccination thing card so we know you, da da da. And I, well, that's gonna be hard because I wasn't vaccinated. And then they're like, they get pretty serious. They're like, okay, well then send us the reason for your not being vaccinated.

And I only put two words, personal choice. I still to this day wonder, why didn't everybody have that out? You know, certainly Scarlett or Channing could have got away with it, but not any other person on that production couldn't have. They all had to be vaccinated. Every driver, it made me so upset. You know, I just felt it was wrong. What was the reaction in the room when you said it? Did people laugh? What was the reaction?

Oh, when I got to the end. Yeah. Well, at the end, when I got to the end of that thing, I felt like people were kind of, they didn't know quite, hold up, what? You know, like it took a second. Yeah. And then the rest of the show didn't suffer

except for the fact that that's all they talked about after the fact and then I got a Barrage of mainstream media all saying kind of the same thing that it was this mumbling kind of Incoherent model. Well, no, it was very it was written out to the last detail There's no mum, but they all say the same thing Because that's how mainstream media is now. They all seem to have the same Playbook, you know Tell me about kiss the ground I Love kiss the ground. I I think the regenerative farming is absolutely imperative.

This is another thing, another pet peeve is these pesticides and... Factory farms. Yeah, insecticides, all these things that they're using constantly. Well, they're affecting the bee population. You know, like, I wonder if when there's no more bees, is honey gonna be as valuable as gold? Anyway, so regenerative farming, you know, I could go into the whole thing

about that Liebig was the guy who started fertilizers. He like, he did this thing where he took that Liebig was the guy who started fertilizers. He did this thing where he took some plant matter and burned it. There was three elements to it that then they were like started to develop chemical fertilizers, right? And it started and then boom, it just spiraled until 10 years later, it was so omnipresent

that he realized that he was wrong, that the soil needed to be nourished by natural humus, which is compost and stuff, and like things that, living things should feed that soil, not these chemicals that ultimately was detrimental. But by the time 10 years later, he tried to say something about it. It was like, he was drowned out by the forces of big. And I just thought it was interesting. His name was Liebig, lie, big, big lie.

Wow. Right, and that has affected this, our country and the world, through Monsanto and everybody else. Now these pesticides are so fricking huge, and it's affecting the bee population, it's affecting so many things, it's in our bodies, it's, so how did I get off on this tangent? so many things, it's in our bodies, it's, so.

How did I get off on this tangent? No, but if you remember, in our lifetime, DDT was sprayed as a pesticide and considered healthy. You'd see commercials where people would be sprayed with DDT, and then Rachel Carson wrote the book Silent Spring, and she was vilified for that. Right, right. Now there's no question about it but yeah I remember seeing children sitting at lunch eating sandwiches sprayed with DDT saturated or children going behind one of those trucks with all the, they're on their bikes

and the DDT's just getting sprayed out of it. After DDT became illegal in the United States, I was in Costa Rica, they were still spraying DDT. Wow. So that company was still making it. I think that was a... Monsanto. Monsanto, I think, made DDP.

They were still making it. I know, I get to be a whiny little bitch sometimes. These things drive me nuts. My daughters are like, why does this shit make you so crazy? I'm like, I don't know, but it's the injustice of it. Thank you.