TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #155: Openoms

Episode Date: April 29, 2020

Join Marty and Matt as they sit down with developer Openoms to discuss: - How Openoms came to find Bitcoin - Why he started building apps and hardware products for bitcoiners - JoininBox - JoinMarket - Fidelity Bonds - Privacy on Lightning - Broadcast transactions privately - much more Follow Openoms on Twitter Shoutout to this week's sponsors. Cash App. Start #stackingsats today. Use the promo code: "stackingsats" to receive $10 and contribute $10 to OWLS Lacrosse you download the app.

What's up, freaks? It's your boy Marty Bent here to introduce this episode of Tales from the Crypt. I had the immense pleasure of sitting down with Matt O'Dell and a good Anon friend of ours, Open Arms, who's been working on some incredible projects throughout the last couple of years. We talked about a number of them in this podcast, mainly his join-in box, his hardware box that allows people to run join market easily. We talked about JoinMarket specifically and how their CoinJoin implementation is set up and the scenarios and incentives that go into that particular CoinJoin implementation. On top of that, we talked about privacy. Obviously, JoinMarket comes up.

You're naturally going to talk about privacy, both the protocol layer and on Lightning, how you can be more private on Lightning and the intricacies of running on tour and displaying your public node and sending invoices. key send and a bunch of stuff very uh enlightening episode get very deep into the technicals i think you guys are going to like this especially if you are interested in the technical details of how to use bitcoin privately this is a wealth of knowledge this episode of tales from the crypt was brought to you by our good friends at the cash app you freaks already know all about them they're helping us do a number of things they're helping stack sats helping us stack slivers of stocks if you want you don't have to and they have their incredible boost program where they're helping us save money at partner merchants uh going back to the sat stacking uh they just

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The age-old question. Enjoy this episode, freaks. Take care. you've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free if you talk about a fed just gone nuts all all the central banks going nuts so it's all acting like safe haven i believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency bitcoin wins in the world of fiat currencies bitcoin is the victor i mean that's part of the bull case for bitcoin if you're not paying attention you probably should be

what is up freaks welcome back to tales from the crypt it's your boy marty bent here for another interview i think this is the uh the fourth interview we've ripped this week uh matt odell is joining me for this one again he just popped a bottle at 12 18 p.m eastern and our guest just popped a bottle. Matt, how you feeling? What's up, freaks? Excited for this one. Yeah, I'm excited for this one too

because we're sitting down with somebody who I would consider a grinder, somebody who's been just head down building a bunch of stuff, whether it be hardware to make using JoinMarket easier with your full node, services that allow people

to connect to Tor easier, projects on the Lightning Network, just all around fascinating projects and a fascinating human being i'd like to introduce you freaks to open arms welcome to the podcast hey what's up freaks thank you thank you for having me no thank you for coming on hey guys um uh like i said before we hit record i'm sorry it took this long uh just going down your github page and the amount of work you've put in uh over the years is is uh laudable and fascinating and especially the breadth of the projects you

worked on. Very, very different. It seems like you're hopping around from Lightning to CoinJoin implementations. And again, it's fascinating. You seem to be very privacy focused, which we like to talk about a lot here on TFTC, as you know. But before we get into all that, let's get into your tale. How the hell did you find Bitcoin and why did you decide to start creating tutorials and building tools for for bitcoiners right well i'm not in for that long um basically first heard about in like 2013 and you know looked up prices a couple of hundreds i've looked up into how can i get this thing and yeah at the time i'm i was just uh moving countries i'm i'm from uh living in hungary originally and from just you know the edge of eastern europe

and uh be moving to england at that time you know didn't have much money and just you know try to find my route find my path and uh looking at bitcoin at this is very interesting but you know i've i haven't got uh money for the new asics and i see that they are deprecating in like you know half a year also i cannot make a like van transaction to japan or the us so okay let's let's leave it and then it was back 2017 when i've sat down with a friend of mine who was like a chemical engineer and he was saying that when we are running some mining rigs in our office uh you know it's not an it office so what's that and and you know we have like a credit card and we're pulling out uh

money from in germany from the atms i mean what you do uh so did you hear about like you know ethereum z cash right so i mean uh let's look into this so you know i love i love the of the hardware i'd love to love to build on uh build computers like gaming rigs when i was little and then you know um anything else afterwards and then yeah basically started to build some mining rigs like after like 15 gpus you know just in within in in in the flat and then starting to learn about these things and then i mean it's quite quite clear if you start to just you know apply a little common sense that it is bitcoin what you are in for uh so you know i've kind of did this hardware building made back the kind of investments to the hardware so sort it all and uh

just go into go into learning more about bitcoin and see how it is uh started to like be the full nerd in so this was this was like beginning of 2017 and then started to build my nodes in well it took like a year really uh in like 2018 found the recipe board project and then found the um the rest the blitz project which is uh originally was only kind of a scripted version of a written tutorial and uh yeah i just i just found out that i love this and you know the hardware then becomes very cheap because you're building on like a raspberry pi or other little little computer and then first follow these tutorials go line by line and you know try to understand what's going on and And, yeah, well, this is what we call the rabbit hole, right?

It's completely from the technical side. I have no background in economics. So, you know, I try to leave myself out of politics as much as possible, sociology and whatever, game theory. But, yeah, the technicals which come to me. then found a little time to kind of learn more register to twitter like you know beginning of 2018 and it was just general twitter and then you find bitcoin twitter you know that's just such a different word and then uh i'm so lucky that uh i've been somehow found out about the video booth camp of justin moon you probably i mean i know he's been on the pod and uh you know

he's he's some fantastic teacher he's so enthusiastic and you know just uh kind of pushed out this knowledge mainly in python and then you know just to be able to get our hands dirty lots of people from that kind of crowd is you know are out building stuff and uh and then yeah it was like 20 2019 beginning of it i started to commit to this recipe this project which is which is like it's a huge aggregate of everything and that's why i'm i'm able to look into these many things because just working on implementing different services just running on my own node and then um and then you know finding out how things work and it's uh you know it's a very active community as well it comes with it's you know the formal crowd the berlin uh kind of

bitcoiners who are who did the lighting conference they have like numerous headings going so it is people you can interact with a lot uh and then i mean you know it just goes on since then um it's a huge shout out to these people for sure yeah i mean and just looking at your work it seems you have a focus on three things at least hardware privacy and lightning um what sort of drives you towards obviously you said you're interested in hardware because you've been building gaming computers since you were a kid but uh do you see a pain point in the the privacy area of bitcoin and uh sort of potential enlightening i don't want to ask any leading questions but well it's bitcoin it doesn't

does come to the to the question of of like self-hosting everything you know there is this tendency like open software in itself which which you should be able to do everything with open source because that's the only safe thing you can you can bet on you can trust uh there is you know no point of trusting any any other uh like either third parties or middlemen you know they they are everywhere so and bitcoin is very pure in debt that you can just go from you you want to have the full stack the open source software acquiring the database of an open source software and it's all coming together this whole you know synchronizing event which is which is the bitcoin kind of protocol but then you know you need to run that on something right so

you cannot just i mean i know satoshi has wrote the first bitcoin client on windows right but you know you just kind of just spin up a windows 10 and uh you know switch off i don't the old tracking built in and just you know host everything on yourself because you wouldn't i wouldn't be able to sleep right so i want to see what the code is running what the code running on the on the actual hardware and if the best is if you can just take it apart and uh you know see what at least see what what these chips are doing you know where are they coming from is there is a little rice which is uh you know radiating out to the nearest tower or is there you know is there anything else you shouldn't see um so yeah it is like open source hardware is

just as important as open source software but much more difficult uh like i'm i'm I'm speaking a lot to Keith Miner, who is huge in this and very adversarial in terms of approaching the hardware as well. He doesn't like Raspberry Pis, for example, which I do agree with. But there are some advantages there I just made here in England next door, so no problem with the supply even there. right so yeah full stack open source that's what i've got to well let's get into some of the specifics that you built let's talk about join box for a second that guy was saying before

we hit record uh we talk a lot about coin join implementations here join market is one that probably doesn't get enough tick as it should and you seem to have built a lot of products around join market what was your idea behind the join box particularly and how does it work and how are people using it all right yes well this is this uh project the join inbox which is uh to be honest this will be all merged into the rest of it at some point but uh i mean the software is but i don't like the idea to keep the hot wallets which we are running on phones pcs windows you know and press replies or other kind of odroids whatever small single board computer you get

to keep them separate because all these all these uh softwares especially i mean you know there are some languages which have more and some languages which are more like clean in that sense that they have like 10 20 30 hundreds of dependencies managed by other teams they open source but there is no way that you would you would review orders and then if you keep these i mean if you keep these on the same hardware even if it's running on a on a vps you know there are ways to listen to a memory of any listen to the memory of the hardware which your software is running on and you can see every other process we know all these vulnerabilities which are public in every kind of processor so a good way is just to not put anything on the same place like if you have

valuable secrets especially if you're doing something which is like about coin joining where you would think of stacking up some significant liquidity significant amount of bitcoin then you know you would definitely want to uh keep that in in a in a completely separate box which is then uh which is join inbox which only runs an open source version of uh linux uh ambien which is like verified and can be built from the source as well and then you just put up join market which is this you know wonderful work of mainly and there are plenty of contributors and it's coming going since like five years but it's mainly work swing adam gibson and like chris belcher and chris scobey who's uh who are maintaining currently and uh

be at most of it and uh i mean it's just my part is just to work up an instruct workout and install script and then eventually uh coming up with a little kind of uh uh menu um like terminal based menu like the rest of let's see if you've seen what how that looks like uh to for people to not need to look up all these comments which need to use join market but just to be able to click on things um so and then you you know you deposit your bitcoin it won't hold any secrets it will it will be obviously needing to uh give you password when you are running when you are sending bitcoin or when you are running a yield generator so uh providing continuous liquidity for a for a coin joint pool but if you

verified everything and keep it as isolated as you can it is you know fairly safe i mean this is the safest way i can think of but this is an ongoing development and all contributions are Yeah, I mean, that's been the knock on joint market up to this point. It's just been very hard to use, it seems like. Do you think that's a valid criticism, or do you think people have not given it enough try? I think it's

quite, it has multiple kind of approaches, so you can think of it because the coin joint thing is it's not made for the masses you know it's not uh it's not a scalable solution it's on this level of like bitcoin technology where we don't have you know signature aggregation and etc uh join coin joins are going to transactions are huge they're like you know 10 20 times bigger than normal send of bitcoin so well i agree with the you know on the privacy side that they should make every transaction a coin join or every spender coin as you say but uh well they cannot do it right so well it your market has a kind of uh it has a filter you know if you can set it up

then you know you will be able to use it too and once you are okay to type in a couple of lines of comment into the comment line then you know my experience was and i see it in a lot of people that you actually don't want a graphical interface anymore because it just gives you the freedom and this this kind of control of every little parameter which you can do and then obviously you know you can do a very good kind of practice or you can do it cheaper than others or you can just mess it up and not you know you might not be doing a very good quality coin genesis so as you know some say but the the fact that it it cannot be you know fingerprinted very well every parameter is kind of randomized and you can do whatever you want and people do a lot of different things

does make it you know it's a very versatile tool you can do so in join market you can already uh so there are no so-called postmax tools the whole thing is a tool which you can use for postmax as well because you can send a payment with a chosen amount with a coin join with like by default with seven nine other participants who are offering their coins in these maker setups in these yield generators you can just take them choose your amount from anything from like you know 100 000 satoshis to 100 bitcoins right and then you can send the payment with the coin join and if you do a self payment like you can even use your world utx up and there is no change at all right there is uh and you can do it in a this in a repeated fashion you can do it into there is a

script called a tumbler which you fund and it's it stumbles through multiple accounts and ends up sending the the deposits i mean the rest of it obviously there are you know the on-chain things will be significant if not the coin joint fees are minimal and they come out on three addresses which you gave it in the beginning with a bit you know all the links break broken from the deposit and from each other as well so it is uh you know it's a tool which is you know you cannot build a very nice gui on it because there is no one button to push it's there are a lot of buttons there's a lot of ways you can use it i yeah i have a couple things to unpack here well first of all for the freaks uh just to provide some context

with join market there's no centralized coordinator there's a maker and a taker in each transaction um so the the maker is the person offering up their coins to be coin joined with and they charge a fee they get to pick what fee they charge um and what open knobs was discussing earlier with the yield generator is that maker needs to keep their funds online all the whenever they want to be offering this service they have to keep their funds online so he was saying how if you run it on a dedicated box um you you know you reduce your threat model because they are online because they are hot you want to reduce the the amount of attacks that that you know like where you could be susceptible from an attack um as a follow-up here those fees that

are so we talked about the the lack of there is a gui um it's not like a yes the the install process is not very simple install process which i think holds back some adoption uh just for instance you know a lot of the freaks uh use mac um which i believe is a step up from windows uh it's not linux but it's still a significant step up and for them to be able to just install like a dmg file or something i think would bring a lot of a lot of users in like if it was like a four-click GUI and you you don't have to have as much maybe you know just like the current GUI you can't be a yield generator you can't be a maker but you have like a couple preset buttons and stuff that you can use um you know with this type of thing like the more people that use it the more

effective it is for everyone right so uh like I I don't want to be the guy like I'm not trying to complain when I'm not building it myself because I can't fucking do that um so I don't want to be that guy but i think it would be a huge step forward just for the project and for privacy and bitcoin in general um what i wanted to actually talk about was so you mentioned it in passing the coin joint fees are minimal um the makers get to choose what their fees are and for one reason or another there have always been extremely low um it kind of reminds me of like the lightning fee situation so like part of it is is is lack of demand but i wonder like are the incentives aligned properly like should we expect to see those fees go up why haven't those fees gone up

Do we want to see those fees go up? Who's keeping their wallets hot and charging basically nothing for it? Well, I would step in here, too. It seems to me that joint market has always been sort of more filled with, and people hate the word altruistic here, but Bitcoiners who just want better privacy overall. And I think the emergence of fidelity bonds is a good example of that, too. People being willing to lock their UTXOs up for X amount of blocks.

And that seems a bit more just in the spirit of better privacy as well. But no, it is interesting. Do you think fees will rise? Well, I mean, Chris Belcher himself has been speaking a lot about the locked funds for civil resistance, which is these bonds coming to the joint market. So I would have gone into that. it's a very very uh interesting thing and that will that is um improving the kind of the cpu resistance so improving um the lowering the chance of uh like nefarious malicious parties

will be part of the coins basically but uh she said you know listen to listen to that uh podcast with stefan because that is fantastic how you know the guy who built it explains it as well uh regarding i mean regarding installing join market it's uh i mean that's that's the steps i like to kind of cover that uh i've only a little i've literally have a pull request merged into join market it is one collector change which does help to install on on you know db and linux because there's been like you know from something which stopped the dependencies installing listing properly but the whole thing is that i was doing with this instoc script for the rest of this which which does it in a way that it is safe as possible in that kind of environment

that it does create like a separate user a separate linux user which other users have no access to so you know the fonts are reasonably safe from the other software running on the rest let's know so you know for example the lnd hot wallet is safe from the dependencies and join market and so on right i mean you know there are like ethics services all over the place um but as we have put you know um btcp on the rest let's see if it's uh well now join market as well so it is now it's um has a higher incentive to kind of you know put that thing in in a little metal box and chain it down or to hide it but uh so insta scripture can help a lot and now you know you have it i think i don't know how it works i think it's only like command line only

but i think you have you have the join market in i know people who use it with my node so it's kind of in there uh but i mean with the respirators question of going to the menu with the services and just clicking on it and you can see how this you know it runs the script which is supposed to be doing yourself line by line so it shows what shows you what is happening which i found the most beautiful and that's how you know i learned a lot of things and that's how i got excited about you know software development that look this is happening i can actually i can actually modify this thing and you know play with it as i like so so that's one two is uh waxwing especially is he i mean listens to these kind of uh concerns

about being difficult to run and he did actually come up with an app image for linux already which is a pre-packaged join market with the qt kind of gui and you could try it i mean I've only seen it kind of exposed on the IRC channel of theirs that most of these devs hang out. But I downloaded it and it's just, you know, a click of a button, literally. And this JoMarket GUI kind of opens up, you can generate, it will generate a wallet, you can fund it and you can do these coin joins on demand, you know, at the spot with the chosen amount.

That's great. That's fantastic. The GUI itself. gooey itself i didn't realize i didn't realize there was an app image that's fantastic well i don't think it's published i think it's uh it's experimental and for lyrics only for now but certain days were done um and it is i mean especially to make it run on windows it's a big challenge because you know what kind of kind of i'm i'm fine with just saying windows that should be like the first step yeah sure sure i mean you know mac is is yes it's very similar

of this it's all unique space it is uh it's possible it's more easier to easier to run so i think that will be coming uh hopefully but in any case uh you would need to run bitcoin core as well because that's the only back end and which it needs but you need that right uh you can run with a pruned node as well so you don't need the very back of the or the block history but only the ones which are affected are having the transactions which are in your wallet so you know that's not a big deal you can do it on there on a on your computer and then because it doesn't need the 500 gigabytes of storage of 300 gigabytes at minimum now but it can be pruned down to five gigabytes or whatever so you can you can run it on your laptop and then connect

your market to it and to use the on demand you don't need to be online all the time You can just go into an angle, go into your lightning wallet, find your channels with, you know, funds without, you know, previous history. That is, that is a, I think that's a very good use case of this thing because you get no change if you change the amount, if you choose the amount, you get no change. get no change and then you if you want to open a lightning channel for i don't know six million satoshis then you know you will have one six million satoshis which has been part of them you know going through with a participant okay before we jump into lightning privacy uh let's let's just go back to the joy market fees for a second um because this is something that you know i first discovered join market when it first came out so what was that like 2013 or 20 early

2014 and i think it's 2016 officially but 2015 2016 was it that late well is it late oh i don't know i just i anyway i was like a massive joint market cheerleader right and what i really liked about it is the built that built-in incentive right that you get paid you get paid to provide coin joint liquidity which is something that bitcoiners like bitcoiners love incentives we love like well-designed incentives right so now it's 2020 um and fees are basically at like zero right yes so what do we think about that so what right so so let's see what why would you why would i why would i run join market right so let's see i have it have it on my you know separate little box call this join inbox call it anything you are setting it up with or or have it on the rest of

it and you get a wallet and you fund it for what for to achieve privacy with the coins to get rid of the history first first of all and then going forward you want to spend without exposing your wallet and exposing the previous transactions you did so if i just let's see let's say i just leave my coins there i will start to run this um yield generator and it will they will be you know coin joined by other people and you know they will they will change they will choose their amounts so it will always you know leave back some change but there will be uh so what is very good in this that you get uh basically you generate a coin uh a joint market wallet you get five wallets in one which is like five accounts from the same seed five derivation paths of the same of the same

wallet and uh the funds will only move between the mixed steps as their code if they are an output of a coin join so if they are a change output they will remain in the previous mix ups so they won't propagate unless they are private and uh right okay so i mean that's how it works but uh basically get free privacy from for your coins which you deposit there so that's the that's the gain it's not the fees which is a couple of hundred satoshis but that that you don't need to pay any of the the chain fees and you also, you know, don't need to deal with it. It just happens. Yeah.

So you have a reduced chance of sort of combining private UTXOs in that case, right? So you basically have five wallet accounts and the change gets dumped into one account and it doesn't go into one of the other four until it has a certain anonymity set. Yeah, it's kind of, it's, it's so called tumbles through. So you get, you deposit to the first mix step, which is called mix step zero for the sake of it. And they can only go through to the mix step one, if they are an output of a coin join. And then if it gets coin joined again, it goes down to two, three, four back to the zero again. and but only the part which is coin joined goes through the change falls back and then it will be part of another coin join then you know it will be going forward or not so by the time it tumbles through your three four five mixups you know it will be coin joined five times it will be

five times part of first for coin join so uh this is kind of a thing what for example samurai does with the post mix with having a different post mix wallet from the deposit wallet here every wallet is is a deposit wallet and a post mix wallet at the same time depending how long you leave it but that's fascinating but makers don't get as as good privacy gains as takers right takers are constructing the transaction um yes so it's hard it's hard to necessarily quant there is privacy gain there but it's hard to quantify it but i mean the makers could then do a taker transaction later if they wanted to yes that's really that's the recommendation that's what we should do and i mean that's what we are like having discussions on really that uh i mean

that is the algorithm which does help with kind of not to do the basic kind of problems not to merge change with the coin join not to uh you know do the like automatic kind of send over feature uh is not there right even if even if when you're sending if you're emptying this wallet which has like five accounts in it you can only empty it account by account so you need to do at least five transactions separate which obviously those utx's which are in the mix that will be kind of merged and this has some privacy you know negative on it but you can do it just one by one and you can coin join out UTXO by UTXO. So it's a new what to do with it. And so to use it as a taker and maker intermittently, that's the actual recommendation. That's what

you should do. You just leave it running. And when you want to use it, you want to pay someone or send it to somewhere else, then you coin join up. right and so in this incentive structure too like the lower fee even though it's lower would incentivize more coin joins over time and even though you're getting a lower fee you're getting more accumulation of that lower fee is that the thesis yes yes so here uh i mean another thing is which is not uh very i mean obvious like compared to the lightning kind of fees that here the coin join liquidity doesn't go away right it's getting coin joined and then it's still there right so it's just uh goes through these mixes from you know uh round by round and you have

usually between like 50 and 100 offers on the on the order book which you can look at anytime sometimes the irc kind of okay irc channel is down or the the server which is reading these irc channels are down so you know at the moment for example it's not showing up but if you run your own you can read the irc server yourself and that's what the script does so it doesn't matter that you cannot see it on like boxwing server you know it's your own server it works completely independently from that and there are usually like between five and 100 offers and at a time because the limitation of the communication the irc which is where this is coordinated at uh you can maximum like safely do like nine coin joins because it's a lot of like you know signatures sent back and

forth um so you can do like a coin with nine participants so out of this 100 you set your own limits what is the maximum fee you want to pay and what is the amount obviously and from there out of the hundred there will be only for example 20 offers which are valid within these limits and then from that it will be a random choice of you know seven to eight nine participants and if you do it again that there will be another random choice so it might be the same kind of well it wouldn't be the same wallet i mean it might be the same wallet but it may be a different big depth of that wallet so it will completely look some uh as some somebody else even if it's the same kind of peer you are going joining with uh yeah i mean so that's how i mean that's how the

fees are paid off either by coin joint so by time uh like an absolute fee so you get uh paid um if you get to get into coin you get paid a fixed fee or you get a relative fee which is uh depending on the amount from from my seat i see the incentive as offering low fee uh joint market liquidity as either being ideological which marty mentioned earlier there's definitely a lot of ideological liquidity providers there that also want some additional privacy out of it but i also have the concern that we have chain analysis companies in there providing liquidity and this is like completely unfounded i have never been able to back it up with any kind of evidence or anything like they keep their lips sealed um i wouldn't be surprised

if they're in wasabi and whirlpool as well but those are newer you know join market has been around for a while and it's cheap it's cheaper for them to sybil join market because the fees are so low and they get paid out to them instead of to a centralized coordinator um so is do you share this concern have you thought about that at all or well it is you know the thing is the more offers you put up the less chance that you will be coin joining only because if you want to see build someone you need to be so apart from the one who you are uh wanting to uh you know uncover you need to be all other parties on that in that coin chain right so these things being randomized and just you know one two 10 20 50 people putting up

offers will you know make this kind of civil attack kind of quite high risk of you know not working out because um it just it's just uh it's just the same pool and yes i mean there is if i'm putting this offer up i will probably put my fees down as well to a level where it is acceptable for for for myself to pay for it right so it will be the fraction of the on-chain fees and uh just because i want to see it working and yes i mean if there is a privacy benefit which is i mean you know okay uh i take it that it is questionable and if you and this there is a privacy um a chain analysis company doing the maker part then they do know the uh or the other utxs uh kind of you know which where they're coming from basically so if there are like three

put three UTXOs into a join, then they will know that it's coming from that kind of peer. But that's true for any kind of coordinator. And here, the coordinators are changing from round to round because it's the taker who does decide on the amount and does decide on the time and does, you know, do automatically construct this transaction as well. So the randomized nature of the coordination sort of reduces the risk of a Sybil?

Well, yes, that is. So the randomized participants, so you can never tell which peer you will be coin-joining with, right? And also, even if you set a fee, I mean, you can configure everything to your liking, but the default is if you set a fee for a coin-join or like a desired uh like on-chain fee minor fee even that will be randomized for like 20 percent up and down so you don't you won't even know what you will be using even you right so it's

it's not uh it's very easy to so you can't plan these coins in a way that you will be uncovered you will be able to uncover others i'm not saying you can't you cannot speak in absolutes but it is difficult and it's it's just looks like a whole mess you know uh and that's the aim so how would how would fidelity bonds take this to another level like i think right so well uh i just know this because i listened to this podcast right so you know i'm not too expert on it but the thing is that if you if you send some send some coins to burner address or if or better you send some coins to time load address will give you a kind of a score. And according to the score, the takers will be more likely to

include your UTXOs as maker, right. So it's just, it's a trust, it's skin in the game. So the more coins you lock, you know, you more kind of skin you have more skin in the game you have and it will be more difficult and more expensive to to cover the whole offer book with you know it increases the cost of the attack we just discussed absolutely yes but it you know it's already not free but uh and already low risk uh but this does this is a some next level kind of solution right so this is obviously experimental and uh and we'll see how it works but it is a very, very kind of subtle idea,

and I think it will, you know, from some side. I mean, you have other advantages of other kind of implementations, but from the CBO side, this will be, you know, taking the lead for sure. No, and it's very interesting to me as well. I was mentioning participants in JoinMarket being somewhat altruistic but the addition of fidelity bonds it actually makes sense if you

have a low time preference it probably does work out in your advantage if you think privacy on bitcoin is important for the inherent value in the future um so you you probably could also make even the fees are somewhat low it is a little bit more expensive to put them in fidelity bonds but comparatively low to other coin joint implementations just the the overall value that were provided to the network by you providing um basically the ability for other bitcoiners to to coin join their utxos would increase the value of the token overall which is worth the investment uh if you're in this for the long run but sure or what if people trusting you more they were more likely to take your expensive offers but if you're a chain analysis

company you can just put up the fidelity bond and then hedge it with a short it's a very interesting i'd run a great chain analysis company so you would you put up a fidelity bond so but you'd have to reveal that you are doing this right at some point well your chain analysis so you could just take a short out on cme or something right i know but then you you sort of blow yourself up at some point the short would only pay off if you come out and say hey we've been we've been the owners of these fidelity bonds so you'd have to like unmask yourself at some point right what do you mean why would you you just hedge yourself i don't know like how financial hedging works but people do it

all the time don't they you can just make it so there's no there's limited there because like the biggest the biggest increase in cost right is like actual price of bitcoin risk uh with fidelity bonds and then the biggest risk for being a liquidity provider is like hot wallet risk right but you you're paying two fees then if you have a short open you gotta you gotta fund that short and then you gotta fund the fidelity but your chain analysis you're charging millions of dollars to to governments around the world right like it's not a free product yeah but i mean the the uh the reason for a hedge is that to make sure you're not spending more money while you're engaged in that type of action not to make it more expensive

it's just sort of like level out your fees yeah i mean like like i said it's a value-add product for them for them to be able to track coin join usage uh more effectively they are able to sell that product right yeah but why would they even open up a short if they could just not tell people that they well because if they have the fidelity if they have the fidelity bond then because of what you just said right what you said is the fidelity bond lines up with the low time preference that you think bitcoin price will go up long term right and i find it hard to believe that these chain analysis companies think that will be the case uh when they're trying to destroy user privacy uh so if if that's the case then they hedge themselves if for some reason like

the guy running chain analysis is a compliance bro bull then by all means he can just take out the fidelity bond and then he has low time preference too so that either way uh i think it'll provide it's an improvement it's definitely a big step in the right direction but i it's not foolproof right it's the same issue i have with like proof of stake where like you're you're staking a bunch of coins but then you can just hedge yourself you can just hedge yourself in in in the markets but why would you hedge yourself for the short if you are the chain not like the The point would be that you're a chain analysis company with a fidelity bond. You already have unmasked everybody,

and your incentive would be not to let everybody know that and just go along with that. The reason you would open a short is if you were to reveal yourself, be like, hey, you guys aren't as private as you thought, and theoretically the market would fall because that privacy utility would be depreciated a little bit, right? well and how much it how much would it affect if you know hundreds of bitcoin searches put in fidelity bonds and you know that like reduces the liquidity especially if it's coming from

kind of weekends like uh you know a chain analysis company right there are a couple of things to look into that's good for the price of bitcoin so that's that's a benefit um i mean but it's exactly it's a similar it's a similar threat model as lightning right is that the idea is that for you to attack it you have to lock up funds driving the price up and driving the cost of the attack up um the you know it just depends how dedicated the attacker is at that point how deep their pockets are yeah no i agree um and yeah how expensive does it get and how much how much of joint market could they could they ever take would be the question like you'd have to assume but again you know you

have these fidelity bonds but you don't need to use them you know just like you can pay a low fee but you can also just set you know leave it at default and you will be randomly paying high fee and low fee you might you know you can set up your config in a way to you know take the fidelity bonds into account and you can just not do it and again you know if they want to cbl again they you need to be all of the other participants, right? So if there is one lurking in the coin journey who is not the chain analysis company, their effort is pointless and their money is wasted.

At least the time, the opportunity risk is wasted. Well, even if it would have to be two people within the round, right? Because if it's one, you know that everybody else but you, that one person but you. but if it's two it's like alright I know two people join with us I don't know which one is which after this is done yeah well but you know

we're not joining with two we usually do it with eight other strikes yeah interesting that's crazy the rabbit holes you can fall down in the game theory that comes in the play

yes and then it tries to follow the philosophy of of all these groups which you know all that have at right points you know some are like have like stronger reasoning than others and also it's fluctuating in time you know at some point some are you know coming up with a very new novel thing and you know prove it right and then someone else come with another come up comes up with another thing it's just uh you know it's really fascinating to watch i you know and these are all kind of um i mean at least i i i really like uh so the other other thing why i was uh trying i was uh started starting play with your

market that i actually love to like read the code because because it's you know i cannot say simple but like clean enough major you know and i can read python right and also some bash so that's that's the advantage and also i've been in in a in a very lucky position that i've been attending to to some physical events that i was able to be able to meet these people you know and have some beers with them and actually you know get them opinions on you know things they wouldn't uh i just put it out publicly i wouldn't say that but it's just to get to know people and just learn from them like like that it's it's uh you know it feels very supportive and it just makes makes it much more easy to pick up the knowledge

and the you know how to of these but uh you know this is a learning process there's no no way to tell what's the best uh you know for sure yeah yeah god god no i'm just thinking that you know there might be things which i'm pretty sure that people won't agree with all of the things i've seen i've said and probably a bit of a case that you know i would be not thinking the same and after you know reading another bunch right yeah now i was going to say matt and i interviewed uh imidi uh italwar last night um who's a core contributor working on a p2p network actually trying to help out with privacy too it's rebroadcasting stuff like that so it's funny how privacy touches many different areas of the

the stack whether it be just how transactions are relayed via nodes or how utxos are coordinated in the coin join to how lightning is used there's so many different variables that come into play but like like you just mentioned it is and matt tweeted it out this morning like bitcoiners like when you when you meet them in person especially people who are building stuff are more than willing to be like hey you want to help out like yeah let's talk about this let's let's figure this out like we could use all the help we can get and it's just incredible to see more and more people sort of come to this realization that this is like the wild west we can build the future that we want that's what i wrote about this morning actually it's like we can exit the current system

and build a better system and we are building a better system and so what's how's that sort of felt for you personally, somebody who doesn't have a software development background as a professional, but is helping out in big ways with software development in the Bitcoin space? You know, all I can say is that, you know, the support in these communities, I mean, all these people, most of the people who I've been interacting with are basically in bitcoin as their hobby right so they have like a fiat job as most of them are or you know i mean very few and even they are so lucky that they are living off bitcoin you know they wouldn't

you know they better not expose that fact right so uh it's just uh i mean i was i was drawn to programming since you know since i had a computer from the age of 12. and then i was there at the end of high school you know to see like okay what kind of university i'm going to and you know i'm ended up at the medical university but uh that's that's not you know that didn't stop me being interested in technology and and just playing with these things with all my free in all my free time and then you know the longer you go i was just thinking oh should i i mean i had a lot of friends who are like social developers you know it professionals and um when they are doing well they are even now you know they're able to work from home

they are you know can do their own stuff from wherever they want to uh and and just being able to be creative creative and you know just uh create something in this virtual but just the three of words is is you know something which gives a lot it gives a lot of pressure pleasure right so um once i found something which is really worth to be like enthusiastic for like uh like you know all the all the incentives of bitcoin of the of just just learning how it works and just seeing it growing it's uh yeah i cannot really get rid of it so you know there is uh there's so many things you must i must start to use and and the way i'm doing i just uh i'm just trying to document what this is what i'm what i'm working on and then it comes with a lot of feedback as well so basically

this is free tuition as people will just throw at me that look i mean this is not really right what you're doing here but you know most of the times i need to do something or build something but it's not just true to me but for example you know any kind of contributor uh that you build it and you see it's working and you might have a theory what it will cause but then when it's out the out in the wild then you will see what what comes of it right it's like it's the same with the world like lightning network it's like coin joins different kind of coin join approaches everyone thought is that it's like that approach is the best approach obviously that's what they went for this went for it right but then you know there are a lot of aspects a lot of things like

you know being on chain private being private from network point of view being super resistant you know costing people money uh having center coordinators uh these are a lot of questions all right uh try not to ramble here too much no no you just i love the passionate rants it is again going back it's a wild west and so i could this is a good transition i know matt wanted to touch on this stuff like privacy on the lightning network like how does it work like between just the the uh the way transactions and messages are routed on the network on the lightning network to running it on tor versus clear net and what are the advantages and disadvantages like how much privacy do you get even if you're running on clear net do you get any at all versus running it

through tor yeah well um so i mean the most important thing is yes run your lighting nodes behind tor because otherwise would you plaster your money out in the window like you know we just uh have your wallet there in the clear i don't think so basically anyone who knows an employee at your internet service provider or an employee this service internet service provider or just uh you know an averagely gifted hacker they can get out the information about you know which ip address is registered to whom and where do they live and you know what other things they do as well right what do they buy what car they drive you know how they you know i mean how their house looks like and then is there a lightning dude it's like 10 bitcoin on it and i just need

to you know pick it up and go i mean obviously it's not that straightforward but uh that's the a kind of you know threat model you need to think of that you don't want to just advertise that look i have this here uh and utilize the tool network which just hides your ip address because your a public key if you are a routing nerd and your public channels will be you know all over the place even if you have own private channels only you show an invoice or or click in on an LNURL or want a specific key send or something then you will be

exposing your public key and that will be tied to your IP address. Yeah, we found this out the hard way. We had our node stolen. Right. Well, that's been a very unfortunate event but kind of foreseeable.

With publicity you get. So, what do you think the future of of privacy on lightning as you think people use the second layer um more because it provides better privacy if we get a certain threshold of nodes running behind tor you think it sort of doesn't matter it's six of one hand half a dozen in the other um i mean it's yeah that's one thing that's that's that's like uh using routing node and routing node is this you know uncle jim's model you say uh that i can connect i can have a model i can have a channel to the routing node of my you know friends or of my or a company I choose

because it's not even you know it's not a custodianship you will be just routing through them and you have some privacy trade-off because of that so you're they will know the most about your transactions and if obviously if you are running your routing node yourself then you know you you are exposing very little of that private only uh mobile wallet you are you are having in in your pocket and you are like paying your you know whatever services you want for bitcoin so that's the like the most obvious and most important thing that payments are basically private if it's like more than more hops you cannot see where the payment

is coming from so you receive a lightning payment you receive a case keys and payments uh well there is like cryptographic evidence and you see that your direct peer has sent it to you but where the payment was started there is you know you will have no clue so you don't expose any of your like if you pay with the utx that utx has a whole history if you were not careful with the coin joins you know you can basically track it back to the whatever uh coinbase transaction right when it's when it is born or of the multiples of them but then uh with lightning it's just uh you just receive a payment and you wouldn't see it so that's different from having like a private nerd but private payments are a thing already unless you control all the hops in between

well that's not like receiving a payment so this is like sending a payment is very private right because you're you're not exposing anything there right unless they control the house well I was going to say this even this gets this gets taken to

this gets taken to a whole nother level of something like PTLCs get implemented right so like what Matt's describing sort of that heuristic is thrown out the window yeah sure I mean if you can infer i mean that is there is this uh attack which like uh renee picard and you know uh sergey uh well i can't look up his name at the moment but uh researching and you know putting a paper out that basically you can probe the wall lightning network

with like very low funds i mean also like chris belcher was talking about this and there are like multiple articles uh that you can probe the wall lighting network for a cost of like 50 pounds or 50 or whatever and you will be able to see what the actual balances are on the channels because those are not exposed by default right so you can see the capacity of the public channels so that's what both of the peers have in the channel but you cannot see how much each peer has from that so when there is a payment coming you wouldn't be able to like track it back that well on that channel the funds on that pierce side has just got lower so the statement must have come from there unless you prove every channel at the same time obviously i mean this is this is

less a cost limit it's rather it needs a lot of computational capacity and the more convoluted the lighting network you know the more nodes the more channels there are it will be not you know very difficult to kind of have a view of the whole thing at the same time so or you will need to have a lot of probing nodes and coordinate them very well i guess the point i was trying to make is and i guess we'll go into this in a second the sender has way better privacy right now than the receiver does just in general exactly but when it comes to sender privacy who they're paying through which nodes they're paying through really matters right because they could pay they might be three hops but it might be three ln big nodes then it's the same owner that that gets all the hops he

knows all the channel balances he sees the payment go through um if it goes through like a bit stamps node and then coinbase's node and then goes to who's receiving it and both of them are sharing with governments or or whatever then you have a similar situation right yes yeah absolutely that's why it's the best to have your out into it and connect to it today with the channel yeah and then you you know no one will be able to see even if it's three I mean you know I don't want to depict and then big as a negative player I think he's doing gate service to the network right but he's a potential right uh but whatever kyc exchanges bitfinex uh bitstamp does run a node as well right and uh a couple of them already coinbase

definitely doesn't have a node that's just some alternative timeline no way yeah so so yeah if you're behind your own node then that is that is great but then put your node behind tor so it will not obvious that it's in your apartment right or wherever it is even if it's on a on a vps that's even worse because if you are having your node on the clear net in a vps then the guy works there we just go to that let's just come to the track and you know pull it out and has potential to kind of crack your cracker key but you know all the ellen big nodes are in vps's on clear net right yeah i've seen those ips of course yeah they're all in like virginia and delaware right or something like that so i mean yes but

i mean what would happen if someone would go and attack them i mean that would be maybe they are the attack you know you right yes but you can you can still attack you can still try to you know steal it right i mean i don't know how much like eight one has like 40 80 bitcoins and stuff like he has altogether has like 400 bitcoins he's half the public network or she yes well are they now we're going up going up in numbers a lot it's uh like five percent increase and we are almost hitting this thousand on online the public capacity i mean imagine you know the private is obviously not not appearing there and this is not private in terms of tour capacity right now is 42.4 but that's why we need we need more people to run their own routing node through tor on their

own hardware not in a vps and it doesn't have to be big it could be it could be on the smaller side just it gives people more options there's more routes that can be taken that that don't go through these these big ass routing nodes we don't want it to be it could be somewhat a hub and spoke but we don't want it to be just like a complete hub and spoke it seems like it's happening right what i'm more worried about is tor compromise because i you have a bunch of bitcoiners like tor is just a cia honeypot is that like that scares the crap out of me it still hides from my yes isp right i mean you know it still still hides my ip from next door guy but yeah just to be clear on the torque capacity you know the torque capacity is are the nodes who are hiding

their ip addresses but the the lightning network like bitcoin capacity is public right they are public on the lightning network but not public on the internet level right there are two layers here two layers in terms of not only bitcoin but the actual like uh it networking layer so you have the internet layer where first you know the the communication channels need to exist and these are kind of obfuscated by tor but once you are on the lightning network the the channels are just between lightning network nodes there is no tor in there anymore apart from the communication but the payment actually just goes through between the nodes and then so you can have a public balance on tor and you will have public channels on top behind tor on a node behind tor as well

but what we cannot see is the private balances so the balances in all of the lighting wallets because all of the light mobile lighting wallets are defaulting to uh private channels only so they're not publishing their capacity so we wouldn't see it so anyone has balance in their breeze wallet in the phoenix in their eclair in their zap uh which is running on the phone is you know that is not coming up in this 960 bitcoins which is now the public uh item capacity so it could be you know a couple of thousands you don't know bitmex said 20 i think yeah around there they they based it on public they based it on channel disputes uh because that was the only time that they could pinpoint uh there was an on-chain footprint that they could pinpoint

And non-cooperative closes, right? Yeah, it was uncooperative closes, yeah. So 10% was the ratio of the public capacity? Yeah, the amount of them that was done on public channels versus the amount that were done in private channels, and then they extrapolated, and they said maybe like 20% of public capacity is in private channels. So that would be, well, like another 250 on top, right?

no a little bit less like less than 200 a little bit less than 200 yeah that's a good amount of Bitcoin I mean that's I'm not going to try to do the math right now you say that 20%

is in private channels 20% is in public 20% is in private channels of the total 20% of the total public channel capacity right now can be added on It's a guess, it's a guess, but they're the only ones who tried to guess, so kudos. I mean, if you're running a node, you probably have more on your public channels.

If you're not running a node, then you have only in your private ones. The majority of private channels are probably mobile wallets, like you said. Yes. Yeah. But you can do private channels otherwise, just to hide your activity, and that's fun as well, between two of your nodes, no one will know about that, and you can just rebalance, shoot in each direction. uh and then i mean that for example that's another thing which which confuses this kind of probing uh attack the private channels you know because you don't you cannot probe those so then you cannot ever be sure that the change of the public uh i mean the change of a balance

of on a public channel was it because it was paid out to somewhere you are looking or was it just going to a private channel it's it's not that easy and also also there is you know proposals to kind of stop this happening so different kind of routing methods and also with the new L&D I mean that will be some kind of yeah it's difficult to imagine how what it will come to in terms of affecting the liquidity of channels and how payments will go through but it's multi-part statements, you know, now they actually think L and D team is activating the send things of multiple payments as well in the

next release, which is like imminent. So then, you know, one payment won't affect on the one channels. Yeah, that's privacy for the sender. It can. So let's go back to receiver privacy. Now. Why does receiver privacy suck on lightning? right so that's what it comes to that in every invoice you can you have this web page which is

called lightning decoder.com you can decode any invoice but obviously your node does it with like and then CLI decode payback for example but and every implementation you have this comment and just just just list out the public key and the you know the time lock the amount and you know the every other variable of the of the invoice but basically you are advertising your public node your public key of your node even if it's a private node with only private channels you need to tell the sender where to send the payment and also if it's a private only node you need to advertise the route towards it as well so if you have only private channels you need to tell the this sender that look these are the channels you need to come through because you can

reach my kind of direct peer which is a routing node obviously must be but from there you need to come through these private channels so you're exposing yourself from there and that you know cannot be routed i mean so just yeah i had some yeah i had a nice chat with like the uh twitter account and like uh breeze wallet and like async and they said that except for phoenix which is the only implementation which using trampoline routing where you basically just send to the async node and then they will sort out to get it to the to the actual mobile wallet the phoenix wallet uh they use fake channel ids when you are sending an invoice from the phoenix wallet so basically there you have private your channel is private towards the whole world except

async so you're just depending that is a trade-off there i mean it's because if you know the channel id you know the funding utxos yes exactly exactly and that was not clear to me completely uh for a couple of hours ago then you know actually asked this question to to, you know, I just showed an invoice of a node, which is completely private. And then I think Fiat, Fiat, you know, was the first to kind of reply to it with the funding TXID. So, you know, I mean, it's so easy to prove things in Bitcoin, you know, so this theory is gone.

So what's the best way to mitigate, like just try to transact with people you trust and send an invoice over encrypted channels or something like that? Yeah, well, you don't even need to do that. You just want to be the receiver and the sender at the same time. So if, for example, I buy, I withdraw from BitMEX or Bitfinex, that is the lightning round, right? I'm not using this KYC institution anyway, but I withdraw from there. I take my mobile wallet, let it be Breeze, for example, you know, because I mean, I would say Phoenix, but still you are exposing yourself to, for Async to know about your transactions. so let let let it be breeze or let it be soft right like a new to you know the node running on your phone or let it be a lightning app by lightning labs and uh you receive the payment there and then you just pay it out to your wallet of choice either to your node or your or your other lighting wallet maybe running on the same phone and then yes you know bits and x will not know where that's where those sets have ended up they just only seen that well it was paid out to

to the mobile wallet but then from there it's gone so you sort of have a quasi hot wallet that you know is going to be exposed that automatically disperses it to another wallet that only you know but i mean security wise it's not exposed it's just uh it's just like privacy wise it is more exposed than the one which is would be the next hop right because then what only you would know that you have sent that those sets i mean unless someone is like constantly probing the Lightning network, like I discussed, which is unlikely. And you would see that happen

as well. Only you know that you have sent that withdrawal to your other wallet. And there you go. There's so much to think about. There's so much to build. That's what we were saying with the media yesterday.

We're so early on in this game. People don't give enough credit like for so early yeah i mean you know a question should you automatize these things i mean do you need this kind of privacy well it depends i mean it's it's very important to have the way and accessible to everyone but uh i mean most people won't be worried about if they would video from bitfinex and then they would keep paying their i don't know uh lunch and coffee from that right or or phoenix you know and if phoenix would know about my grocery shops right i mean yeah visa mastercard and you know all my providers already know it and they probably have

like a card which i uh show them every time i buy something as well yeah but the important thing I cannot I can you know okay I could go to shop well for at the moment not so much but you know still can pay with cash right so I have the option if I don't want to expose yourself expose myself then I can I can just hand over my you know the change and the things the freshly printed what we have here, British pounds, right? They are literally fresh printed.

They're coming out, you know, you're the first one touching them and they are numbered in order because they just changed a couple of the bills. Go to the ATM and then you can use that. Then that option is becoming less and less available now. They want to take the cash away. My thought process is,

what I want to see is, in five years i want to be able to go to a store and buy some milk um at and pay their btc pay server with lightning and they don't know which utx has funded the transaction and my employer who paid me bitcoin for my salary doesn't know that i bought milk and i think like that's like a nice base level privacy for like the average user for it to be accessible to them if we get to that point and i think we're kind of close to it um that would be a big big achievement yeah i think you know i mean by if if you see you think it's true in practice i mean you wouldn't receive your salary on the wallet you are having with you when you are going to shop for milk right

so you would do that hop anyway you just get it into your lightning wallet and you transact your private one of yours a mobile wallet of yours and uh you're basically just having the cash around and now we're getting into but this is like a whole like new way like rewiring of the brain of how people think right people are used to getting money in their bank account and spending it straight from there um but i think it will come with time and i mean it is already intuitively for me personally it's i mean i'm starting i mean just the way you have to interact with protocol and then Lightning, you find that these practices are developed naturally. Yeah, you will find parallels.

If I get my salary on my debit card with the bank account, and I spend from my credit card, it's quite the same, except, not in the bank, the user experience can be very, very similar on the surface. It's nowhere near similar under the surface. the surface of the network level. Yeah. Um, dang, we have to, uh, run to a call here soon, Matt, but, um, we should, is there anything particular that you're excited about right now in the space

that we should touch on before we wrap up here? Right. I mean, I'm, I'm, you know, extremely excited about all the, all the software, which is like getting actively developed and, you know, we're trying to play with it, implement it and, and, and, and just use it. would say you know that run your nodes run a bitcoin node if nothing else you know but then run a lightning node it's very good uh for routing for privacy for you know playing with the new technology and then you know you might want to run more than one because you want you would want to use different hot wallets and that would be the safest bet to just keep them separate if you are

keeping you know significant amounts of money don't don't don't even think of not having like you know, $200, $300 worth of hardware helping with it, right? I'm not speaking about hardware wallets, but the nodes themselves where you can actually verify your things and keep them safe. Look into it. It's all fun. I mean, if you don't enjoy it, then you're too early, I guess.

No, I mean, I've said that many times in the past. I think the Bitcoin revolution is going to be joined with a hardware revolution. It's just going to be necessary. And as somebody who's not been a fan of building computers or writing software or anything like that, I've run more hardware in the last six years than I ever did up to this point other than plugging an Xbox in, which has been fascinating. And luckily we have people like Matt O'Dell and yourself

creating tutorials to make it easier for us dumb freaks out there. And it is getting easier. I mean, that's what makes me most bullish, is that this stuff is approachable for us non-tech-savvy users as well. And it's getting more approachable by the day. Yeah, well, I mean, from my point

and what you're doing in the rest of this project, I would even feel sorry for people to take away the actual command line output we are showing them, right? I just don't want to distract it because it's so beautiful. But, you know, you have use cases for different approaches, and that is great. That's why we are all here.

Yeah. Matt, do you have anything else you want to add to this? The command line GUI war always cracks me up. Command line's great, dude, but, you know, if you want more use, you got to move away from it. It could always be the power user option, but people don't people get scared they see it they get really

scared well I mean you don't need to do I want more use of Raspablets it's a hacking platform and a teaching a wonderful teaching tool you know but it's running Bitcoin Core you know

and it's running L&D you can run these softwares and many other ways as you like you can have and I mean it might come to that as well but I will be the one to be able to because I cannot to do like a web GUI and, you know, run it in a tool browser, for example. I mean, you know, huge, huge respect to Roots always actually coordinating these Christian Roots

to kind of prioritize the things and make them work. But most of the time, the thing was to implement the newer things and give people a platform to try their new services out. No, I mean, I think the command line makes more sense for for the the raspi blitz project uh but i i was more i was more referring to uh i was going back to join market but then the app image in the works is fucking fantastic um i just wanted to shill your web store diynodes.com um open noms uh he sent me one of their raspi blitz cases it's got like the little lcd screen in the top it's fucking sexy he like also alluded to it it's

got one of those uh like kensington lock holes for like computers so you can bolt it down to something uh so yeah just free shout out for that i really enjoyed this conversation it was a long time coming i met you once in person i really enjoyed that conversation as well so i hope we we do have a follow-up here and hopefully uh it'll be in person when all this bullshit uh it gets past us. Um, but just thank you for your time and thank you for, for everything you've been doing.

Yeah. Yeah. Echo that. Hopefully we get to meet in person and, and in the same time zone at a, at a happy hour and get to, I mean, you two enjoy it's whiskey.

We're going to have five drink Matt on a rabbit hole recap tonight at this pace, drinking straight out of the bottle, like a savage. Um, but open knobs, thank you for your time. Thank you for what you're doing.

I mean, it's, it's just infinitely exciting to see people like you getting drawn to this project and just picking up where people are leaving stuff and like, Hey, I'm going to build on top of this. And you've built a lot in a short amount of time. So again, keep up the great work and really appreciate your time today. Yeah. Thank you so much. And, uh, you know, I will keep sharing and please,

you know, I'm so grateful for you guys for, you know, sharing all your knowledge and, and stories as well. Thanks. Thanks a lot for inviting me. no thank you for listening to the screenshot of your uh your podcast i can't believe you spent that much time listening to it's a tfc it's a good thing you know that's quality time always yeah no well we appreciate it that's all we got this week freaks peace and love