TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #165: Cory Klippsten

Episode Date: June 2, 2020

Join Marty as he sits down with Cory Klippsten, co-founder and CEO of Swan Bitcoin, to discuss: - Founding Swan - Bitcoin education - Dollar cost averaging - Cory's experience with tech startups + consulting - Bitcoiner Ventures - much more Follow Cory on Twitter Shoutout to this week's sponsors. Cash App. Start #stackingsats today. Use the promo code: "stackingsats" to receive $10 and contribute $10 to OWLS Lacrosse when you download the app.

What's up, freaks? It's your boy Marty Bent here to introduce this episode of Tales from the Crypt. I sat down with Corey Clipston from Swan Bitcoin, CEO and founder of Swan Bitcoin, to talk about a bunch of things, including how Swan Bitcoin came to be, how they're helping Bitcoiners DCA into Bitcoin and use Bitcoin as a savings vehicle, how they're educating Bitcoiners, and on top of that, a bunch of other things, including Corey's journey to Bitcoin, why he thinks it's so important, and Bitcoin Adventures, and some other topics. I think you guys are going to enjoy this one.

This episode of Tales from the Crypt is brought to you by our good friends at the Cash App. You freaks already know all about them. They're helping you do many things, becoming a new old bank. You can do a lot with the Cash App, including stack sats. You can stack sats, send sats, receive sats, sell sats, if you so please. You don't have to, but the ability is there. On top of that, they're helping you stack slivers of stonks. on top of stacking sats, you can stack slivers of stonks via Cash App Investing.

If your favorite stonk, if you invest in stonks, I know some of you don't, but if your favorite stonk is a little too expensive and you are investing in stonks, you can buy as little as $1 on the Cash App. Because the Cash App is connected directly to your bank account, or because it is your bank account, you can get an account number and a routing number now, and you can get your paychecks directly deposited into the Cash App. It makes it a lot easier to stack sats. It takes out a whole step in doing that.

You get your work check deposited into the Cash App, and you can start stacking sats with that right away. You can even set up a DCA function. You can do it once a week, once a day, once a month. You can set that up in the Cash App. Now, they just released that. And sats are the standard. You can make sats a standard within the app.

I've been doing that recently. It's really cool to see how many sats you stack over Bitcoin. If you're stacking stonks, know that Cash App Investing is a subsidiary of Square and is a member of SIPC. As always, use the code STACKINGSATS, that's S-T-A-C-K-I-N-G-S-A-T-S, when you download the app, you're going to get $10. And $10 is going to go to our good friends at Owls Lacrosse. Ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, Owls Lacrosse, whoo, whoo, not that dirtbag, ow.

Don't get it confused. Hope you guys are enjoying your Memorial Day. If you're in the States, if you're not in the States, I just hope you're enjoying your Monday. Peace and love, freaks. Take care. bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency bitcoin wins in the world of fiat currencies bitcoin is the victor i mean that's part of the bull case for bitcoin if you're not

paying attention you probably should be what is up freaks welcome back to tales from the crypt it's your boy marty bent here on a lovely friday afternoon vibes are high it's friday it's the afternoon temperatures rising sun's out and we're here to talk about bitcoin somebody who's diving headfirst into it uh approaching it from many different aspects i'd like to introduce you freaks to cory clipston ceo of swan bitcoin what's going on dude hey marty good to be here and uh yeah is that a swan dive then it's one yeah swan dive right okay i see what i see what you did there yeah we're gonna have to see if you can do a swan call i haven't actually dialed in on exactly what a swan sounds like i know that's actually pretty it's pretty good that's uh that's

pretty good i don't know i just remember geese when i lived in south carolina we were bad kids and we used to mess with the geese uh around the plantation and they would like chase us and get very mad i think that was a geese sound i just made goose sound sound the geese they got to be cousins right but like the goose lays golden eggs and swans fucking love bitcoins it's true especially the black ones yeah um yeah exactly so before we dump in everything you guys are doing at swan i hope people dca in the bitcoin and look at savings from a different aspect how the hell did you get into all this what's your backstory what were you doing before bitcoin yeah sure so uh man you never know quite where to start there but um you know i had a long career in uh in

technology and management consulting and worked for microsoft and mckenzie and went to b school at University of Chicago and worked for Google for a while. Basically, I think this is probably the best way to, I think when I look back and try to be objective about it, I think what happened with me is I worked in tech during the dot-com bubble and bust. And that made me sort of look for work or just to be involved in a part of the economy that seemed like it was on a more solid foundation. So I went to business school at like the most, you know, hardcore, solid one you could find, which is University of Chicago. And I went to McKinsey, which was, you know, like the most hardcore, supposedly solid company you could work for. And I did private equity, which seems like

super hardcore and solid. And I ended up basically, you know, in the middle of this massive bubble in the supposedly, you know, solid real economy, you know, in private equity, and, you know, it just kind of like shut down and i had a consulting firm in uh in chicago that i was running at the time post mckenzie and uh you know just kind of watching all this stuff go on with the subprime and the whole global financial crisis and i was looking around and i was like damn this uh doesn't seem so solid either what is going on here so that was kind of you know priming me to to always be on the lookout for something and you know the the genesis of me getting into the startup world which i've been in for a long time now was just wanting to have more control over my own life and have more

control over my own outcomes. Just kind of like bet on yourself. I, as you guys can probably tell from the title or the name of the company, I've been a massive Taleb fan going back to 2002. So I'm about 18 years now of sort of reading everything the guy writes, usually 10 to 15 times i've lots of dog-eared copies of his books and um you know i uh it was really his philosophy like trying to set yourself up to be anti-fragile or just like robust to change and if you if you run something yourself and you have a lot of clients and aren't dependent on just one that's basically where you set yourself up for success so you know i think another another good influence on, on me and how we run our company was the 37 signals guys, the guys that, uh, put

out signal versus noise and rework and all of that. Um, our author, uh, Matt Ruby, who writes a lot of stuff for us, including, uh, one of our books and a lot of our blog posts and stuff was their ghost author and wrote two of their New York times bestselling books and been friends with him actually for the same 18 years. So I met, I met Matt and, uh, the work of Taleb the same year. so that's pretty cool um so i wanted to get into startups i uh i couldn't really figure out how to get from like management consulting into early stage startups because everyone wants to pigeonhole you into like working for for some late stage heavily venture funded and then give you kind of a straight jacket role as like strategy guy or something like that it was super boring it's more

the same i wanted to build things and make mistakes and you know have your ideas be meaningful and change the trajectory by 50% or 100%, not 2%. So I actually went to Google for a couple of years just to kind of network with VCs and startup founders and really just start my apprenticeship and start learning. So from 2011, I basically started learning how to run startups. I was mentoring in as much as I could add some value, maybe on the marketing side or the strategy side,

some local startups in Chicago and then in Los Angeles when I moved out here. and then by summer of 13 i felt comfortable enough that i had a good enough network and like a little bit to add um value wise to get into the startup ecosystem um so i did i jumped in i started advising started cutting some angel checks and um and started looking for companies to join and actually operate in um and this is where the the timing actually dovetails interestingly so i joined an ad tech startup in december of 13 and uh raising the first round of capital for that company uh i was running around to conferences and i was at a tech and media conference january 29th of 2014 here in los angeles and uh and someone was passing out bitcoin saying install this blockchain wallet

and i'll give you 50 dollars in bitcoin so i did and uh proceeded to not go down the rabbit hole not read the white paper and lose the private keys. Um, so, you know, I, I definitely feel the pain of, of people that feel like they've missed it. I absolutely just missed the signal and didn't pick up on it. Thank you for, for your service, for, for losing that private key, your, uh, your donation to, to the rest of the hodlers is well respected. Just, just trying to reduce supply a little bit, you know, like that's the mission, reduce the supply, reduce the available supplier nah i um before we dive into like the bitcoin stuff because i'm happy you brought up 37 signals that was actually i've had two touch points with that book they write about the startup

culture and running lean and iterating quickly and testing ideas and i think it's and again like coming i'm interested to hear the dichotomy of coming from mckinsey and university of chicago and then that sort of education that the 37 signals books provides where it's like just get out there iterate iterate iterate and sort of goes against uh some of those cultures and and uh established academia yeah i mean it's interesting because they're not they're not that dissimilar because you know the whole mckenzie thing is being hypothesis driven so you're supposed to just sort of dive and do a lot of research and think really hard and come up with

what you think is the right answer and you don't test like 10 things you test one thing and see if it works and then you learn and then make the next best guess which is not all that dissimilar from you know getting out an mvp that you think is going to have product market fit and then iterating based on user feedback so i think maybe that's just kind of a smart way of doing things generally so it's a little bit more about you know who are you doing it for you know i was constantly trying to save dying companies that were doing horrible things around the world and uh instead you can build the future i think startups are more fun yeah and that's another thing that that book really drives him or all the writing is that it's it's cheaper than ever to to

get these ideas out there and test them and and then scale up which is yeah and and also just like what you learn from being in the game right so just by putting out a product and and putting up hanging up a shingle and telling the world that you're doing this thing that's how you get people coming out of the woodwork wanting to help you and wanting to do things and you know i uh certainly had that thesis i was like if i can just hang up a damn shingle in bitcoin and say like we're doing this in bitcoin you'll meet people and you'll have ideas and you'll figure out what the right thing is to do we can get into that a little bit uh later you know kind of the evolution of of this company in this project over the last year um but uh yeah so let me just

quickly finish that story so yeah so i started going hard at startups i spent the next you know seven years now in the startup world, I ended up having a, a pretty good spike, I guess you'd say, or just like ended up being pretty good at raising money. I've been doing that for a long time anyway. I used to raise money for like nightclubs and restaurants starting 2004. And so I started doing that heavily in the startup world. And, and you know, basically from leaving the ad tech company in the late 2015 over the next four years I was in that sort of like strategy and fundraising advisor seat next to an early stage CEO for a little over a quarter billion of fundraising across like 30 something rounds for about 20 companies so got good at you know writing decks

big network of you know VCs and angels and kind of reaching out to people and and getting them interested in in what we were doing with these different companies so that was kind of my training and that's what i've you know i don't i don't know how to add more to bitcoin i'm not going to be a core dev i'm not gonna not gonna understand a lot of things but one thing i do understand is you know bringing people together around a company or a cause and essentially just kind of like throwing a party around anything that i'm personally passionate about and just getting people inspired and helping them rally around a cause yeah and i mean i think that's evident in swan bitcoin the team you've amassed is sort of uh feels like it's just naturally come

together at yon road inventing bitcoin that's a book that my wife and i read aloud to each other on a roof one day and really helped her understand bitcoin it's actually funny there's like a chicago theme throughout all this he's in chicago he worked for reverb or was the cto of reverb which is like a guitar focus company and i i know that website alone because my roommate in college like desperately wanted to work for them he's like a graphic designer and like he he would always talk oh dude my dream job be like working at reverb designing their sites we have a bunch of friends in common randomly just people keep on coming out of the woodwork um it's really funny how many people we had in common on facebook and you know like there was this guy that used to run you

know vip for one of the nightclubs and he ended up a few years later after we left chicago he ended up working for reverb and doing some bd for them and he hit me up and he was like oh my god i used to work for yod it's uh yeah so how did you two get connected like what is what is the story of of swan oh i hunted him i hunted him i hunted him like a beast yeah no i i just i loved the book i uh i went to bitcoin 2019 and uh asked him to sign it and we were already kind of chatting i I had started the company just literally earlier that month, officially started the company, I think June 5th of 2019. Had the idea for GiveBitcoin, the first product that we put out in April of last year.

And I was just building an advisory board of people that were really good Bitcoin educators because I figured that's what we needed to be doing to get people to want to do that. The GiveBitcoin product is basically, you know, give somebody a little bit of Bitcoin So they start watching the price and, you know, feel like they have a little skin in the game, but you escrow it for a year, you lock it up with a custodian so they can't touch it, can't trade it for Ripple, whatever. Obviously, they can buy more and, you know, this isn't going to be their whole stack, hopefully, if you're doing a good job. And then over that year, we're educating them. So every month, you know, sending them a new chapter of The Gift of Bitcoin, which is the book that Matt is about two thirds of the way done writing. And he actually interviewed Matt O'Dell, I think, this morning for the privacy chapter, which is Chapter 8 or 9.

Oh, yeah. I mean, that's one thing I think is important. That's why I started this podcast, the newsletter. I just thought there was an incredible lack of quality education outside of technical resources. when i started the newsletter it was all bitcoin talk uh andres antonopoulos book um and everything was very very technically driven and trying to make it more make bitcoin more digestible to to the masses is something that i i thought was necessary when starting this so it's like when i see companies like swan bitcoin that put an education first um sort of mindset into their

product i'm always very happy because this is crazy it's like it's an alien technology and there's so much misinformation around it and trying to get people quality information is so important yeah well i mean yeah i mean you hit on it right i think education is the best marketing for bitcoin because you know especially for our product you know one's propensity to buy bitcoin is directly correlated to their understanding and knowledge of bitcoin And so if you know more, you buy more, which is great for us. So we don't even have a head of marketing. Brady Swenson, Citizen Bitcoin podcast host, he's our head of education.

And his job is to put out tons of educational content all the time. I love that, head of education. Is that the first head of education at a company? At least I've heard of. Brady's doing great things. Yeah, if you freaks haven't heard his podcast yet, definitely go check out Citizen Bitcoin. and so um how yeah so how did you guys all like your your core team come together outside of yon you you chased down yon and how the products chased down yon um brady i reached out to because

i just really liked his podcast and the vibe and i i realized he didn't have a sponsor and so i think in october i asked him if uh we could be his first sponsor uh and then you know we got to know each other a little bit and in December when things started to heat up and we realized that we were going to, a lot of people don't realize this, but we actually had recurring purchases for yourself as a feature inside of give Bitcoin up until like mid December when we decided to strip it out and rebuild it and make it its own product.

But I, once we knew we were going to do that and we knew we needed more bandwidth, we realized like, okay, the opportunity is huge here. We've got to go hard at this. uh i asked brady if he would come and and work on it with us what was what drove the decision to sort of re-architect the the product at that given point in time we're just getting feedback and it was really just to split it out so give bitcoin.io you know there's people you know got probably like 20 or 30 gifts a day going on there still and you know people use it people love it

it's still a good way to try to red pill people that are just not going to give it the time of day otherwise um but obviously like you know type one spending spending money on yourself is a bigger market and that's that's swan this is just saying like hey this is the place to set up your your auto stacking and uh you know this is the place that you should tell other people to set up their auto stacking because it's 100 bitcoin focused there's no distractions there's no alt coins like you're going to find on coinbase and gemini um you know and obviously we're all huge fans of of jack and cash app and i've been friends with steve lee for a couple years and love what he's doing with square crypto and everything and miles has been supportive of us on the cash app side but

um you know i think we just we offer uh a different offering and uh i think it's it's nice to have a place where you know it's going to be a hundred percent bitcoin focused and all about bitcoin education and we're just frankly able to offer significantly lower fees than anybody else for what we do yeah so how does that work how are you how are you guys able to get lower fees is it yeah basically it's just you know small team not a public company not trying to squeeze profit out and uh you know it's just a decision that we've made to be slightly less profitable than maybe we otherwise could be on a per user basis um you know we just it's it's a fairly simple product we try to make sure that anytime we get you know two or three support requests that are taking up our time

trying to answer a question we build that into the product so that we don't get those support requests anymore and we just you know jan always talks about having a very narrow surface area for your product so there's sort of only one way to use it you know probably the most regular feedback we get is like did i just sign up because it's just so fast and so easy to do it and just this one-time decision that you make and now you're you know building up a position in bitcoin in the same way that you would you know a 401k just automatically taking money out of your paycheck or you know making that one-time decision to buy a house and that's how you end up accumulating equity you know in a mortgage we wanted bitcoin to be that that third pillar of savings for

americans who are notoriously terrible at savings unless it's done automatically can they sell can people sell vs1 no no sells one way only and then how so how does the mechanics of it work when you go and you set up a dca um i i noticed due to the ach 60 day waiting period you guys are holding the big it's it's 10 to 15 days actually yeah yeah yeah 10 to 15 days so basically you sign up and and so we we make a very strong distinction um about automating three key things automatic pull from the bank account automatic purchase of the bitcoin and automatic withdrawal to your self-custody. And we think that the user problem is not solved unless you have all three of those things. So there is a little bit of a distinction there with DCA because

a lot of people can claim that they have DCA. But, you know, most companies around the world that have DCA are actually saying, hey, wire us a bunch of money and we'll dole it out into Bitcoin over time. That doesn't really solve the problem of automated savings. So you really do need to have that you know we think and our users seem to think that you really do need to have that automatic pull from the bank account as the first step and we call it auto stacking we're trying to make that a thing so it's broken up into two parts well the third of which is sending the bitcoin to custody or self-custody so you pull which is recommended but optional you don't have to you can leave it with our custodian for free if you want to the first part is you pull the money

out of the bank account and that just sits in like a fiat deposit on your platform and then that's right you buy bitcoin for them when they want to dca or it'd be the first of the month 15th whatever it may be we're actually just almost everybody's on weekly um so we're actually going to shut down i think we already took the paycheck option out of the interface because nobody was using it and it's just annoying um so we just have weekly and monthly and we're going to add daily nice um yeah so basically that basically what happens is you know so you you send your first deposit or the first pull from the bank account happens and you have that 10 to 15 day wait and then after that it's just constant it's always a pull and and you know someday you know

two three ten years ago or from now when you turn it off you'll have a couple more purchases after you stopped having pulls from your bank account okay and and how do you guys work like how do guys source the bitcoin otc desks and major exchanges so our prices just kind of mirror what you would see on crack enter coinbase pro yeah and then is there so we we do not take a spread so the only fees we take are the ones that you see it's interesting different product right um and i've seen up to date right because it's like the set it and forget it where um like because there's no like compulse compulsory stacks you can't be like ah you can't wake up take a piss like i want to buy right now um but you're trying to like

remodel this this listen man we like to smash we do like to smash buy as well you know but it does happen it's not like people don't have their exchange accounts anymore and like you can scratch that itch what's nice to know is like you know if you're on vacation or like one of our one of our favorite customers who does youtube videos about us constantly is a merchant marine and like he's out to sea and he just loves to be auto stacking we've been using the hashtag swan and chill a lot and we just have like pictures of people relaxing and it's like you know you're sitting on a giant swan floaty in a pool and it's like she's yep she's stacking right now pause no yeah that's what i'm trying to get at is like what how does the uh the user interaction

or the the the psyche around interacting with swan as opposed to an exchange um does it create more uh peace of mind is it a more relaxed stacker is there it is it's much more it's all about zen and cool and we you know we we're quite a meme factory because we have uh barack ivan bitcoin as our creative director and he does love to make memes um so yeah we you know shovel out a lot of images of like paul newman and humphrey bogart and just people kind of chilling and being cool and zen and you know the dude the dude should have stacked a lot like definitely should have been stacking while i drink his white russians so what uh what's the plan now like you guys are launched it seems like you're getting your foot under your foot under you how um yeah so it's it's been we

launched march 30th it's uh it's going exceptionally well so far beating our expectations so far by about 8x which is nice so we're about 2x ahead on users and the average amount that people are buying is about 4x what i had been modeling so that's pretty cool um and so yeah we we launched uh we took the automated withdrawals live last week so about 10 days ago people are we just did that quietly because we always promised that was going to be in there so it was nice to just have it show up but people are realizing that that's there and available um we just launched a referrals program so this is even though we are u.s only for uh customers our referrals program is open to people globally so if you know wizard of oz or you know somebody overseas in indonesia

or whatever wants to target u.s users on twitter or you know on facebook or instagram or tiktok or whatever and try to get them to start stacking sats with swan you can just sign up at uh swan bitcoin.com slash enlist e-n-l-i-s-t and just join the swan force and start shoving bitcoin at at people in the u.s so get the whole whole world to market bitcoin to u.s users um and then we are so we also just hired a new head of institutional um to tackle a couple of new initiatives so andy Edstrom he wrote why buy Bitcoin and is also a partner in West cap which is a big wealth management firm in SoCal former Goldman guy he's our head of institutional now and he and I are working on the Swan IRA so we really

hate the if you look at the front load fees plus the back-end fees at Bitcoin IRA it's 11 points 11.25 plus 3 plus you know 1% per year or something so it's this egregiously soaking their customers we're gonna do a Swan IRA that undercuts that by like 80 or 90 percent um so still working on the numbers there but we'll have a swan ira soon ira ira is always because what's the benefit of the ira like tax it's tax beneficial in the long run right yeah yeah it's just it's just tax benefit i mean some people do want to do that and remember a lot of people are going to be rolling over as well so um you know they may have a 401k from some company they used to work at and they want to roll that over into a roth or traditional

IRA and they want, you know, either some or all of that to be in Bitcoin and we'll make that easy for them to do. Yeah. And then for the auto withdrawals, are you allowed to dump an XPUB key or get the static address? XPUB is coming. So yeah, right now you can enter as many static addresses as you want and you can rotate them through, you know, every week or every month or whatever. I think it's pretty soon, so I'm not going to hang, yawn out to dry here, but it's, we're not far away from making xpub go live interesting um yeah no it's it's it's been fun to see uh see everything come together uh in the last few months i mean the the design of the website is very sleek and um it's uh it's i mean the more on ramps to bitcoin the better and it's

funny that not funny it's interesting i think you guys are the first outside of like gift cards maybe um on only ramp uh that i've encountered is there anybody else doing that where you can't sell uh not in the u.s i think that's probably amber in australia i think alex svetsky's one way only i think um and i think bitter was one way only rest in peace so they recently shut down yeah reuben he's a soldier um so yeah i think it's just us you know i mean my view is like this is either the best or the second best consumer product of the internet age it's you know maybe a toss-up today between bitcoin and search and it's the only one that you can basically sell directly to consumers that's not in you know not an enterprise product actually so it's probably

the best consumer product of the internet age it has the widest audience and the most people that should be buying it and so it's hilarious to me that there aren't already like a few thousand businesses just selling bitcoin best best app of the consumer is why do you dive into that whatever i said it's just it's just the best consumer product i mean you're literally selling good you can use bad money to buy good money like that's the best product ever yeah so let's dive into that a little bit like why why bitcoin for you personally Exactly. Having been through the tech bubble and the private equity bubble, is that sort of what drove you towards Bitcoin as a monetary system or as a free and open software in the

digital age? It's very clear now that the big problem with the dot-com bust and the global financial crisis and what we're going through right now which is gfc2 or great great depression too we'll see what it is you know it's all because of the crappy money and just how unfair that is and i've certainly felt you know the effect of the treadmill over the course of my life um you know just like it seems very difficult to to get ahead when your money is crappy and the culture is constantly coming at you telling you to consume and you know we've been fed these these narratives that are all around consumption and even when you think that you've broken out of the narrative and you think

like oh i'm not gonna go buy the mcmansion and the car because i'm liberated and instead i'm going to be one of these people that goes and you know consumes travel and experiences and then later you realize that that was actually just you know companies and the system kind of marketing that to you as well and so there's a whole generation of people now waking up and saying like oh shit I have no money and I also have no car in-house I've got all these experiences but those were all actually like McMansion visits to Paris and Barcelona and I was just next to everybody else going to tourist bars and you know it was all just sort of like productized for me so there's only like you know 0.1% of people that are actually doing something that wasn't

scripted for them it's like Anne Hathaway finding out like her Kmart sweater and Devil Wears Prada was you know actually chosen for her specifically by somebody in paris you know a year before and they knew she was going to buy it and she was like no you're getting a very interesting point i mean that's somebody who's in his late 20s now i guess it's like something my generation is definitely um force-fed go travel the world get all these experience a bit hedonistic in some some ways very uh very uh very um i don't want to say selfish but uh self-absorbed is probably the better term there and yeah it is weird like like some people are waking up in their mid-30s like what the hell's going on my life and i don't have a significant other i don't

have kids what is this all about so there's uh i'll give an example so there's this place called Malibu Cafe which is actually in the mountains above Malibu not too far from here and I didn't know about it but evidently it's been there for like 20 years or something and when the fires rolled through here a year and a half ago they kind of redid it and so a friend you know and his family dragged us out there and we went and looking around I'm like man this place is like paradise this is just so beautiful I can't believe this place is here and like it has wi-fi and you could actually just come here on a weekday and hang out all day and it's outdoors and indoors and good food and drank like oh my god this is amazing and then i look around and i realize

the entire place is actually a collection of sets for instagram photos and everyone that's there is like basically a wannabe influencer or somebody everyone has their phones out the entire day and they're just going basically from like set to set taking these you know pictures for instagram and i just started to feel really dirty yeah man it is where the whole influencer economy like we're seeing it now with tiktok like i sent a tweet out last night tiktok is a cursed app it's making people do weird things and uh very very little value add to to these activities when we're talking about the the net benefit to society overall maybe i'm just some grumpy asshole who's judging people but uh i think there is some weird uh weird social things going on right now

where people people's priorities are all out of whack it's the dopamine for the like the retweet which i'm guilty of i've said that plenty of times on this podcast certainly get guilty of it on twitter but when it comes to like the influencer economy and and like just wanting your life to look better than it actually is to virtue signal to people you don't even like at the end of the day or or no is very very weird and again like going back like hedonism we're at this weird part of of humanity is weird time in humanity where it seems very again self-absorbed and is the pendulum going to swing back towards a more communal type of uh society um values family and and looking after your neighbors instead of instead of pumping

yourself on these apps i don't see a swing back for broad society i think it'll just keep on going down this scary path but i do think that more and more people will just kind of like opt out however they can and you know put the phone down and not have those apps and things like that so i think you'll see just sort of like a broad move toward you know modern day asceticism or something yeah we do need to bring back better aesthetics where i am right now it's got terrible aesthetics it's all plastic houses and all the same i was actually using like aesthetic as in a as in a monk but uh yeah aesthetics too yeah um yeah and that's i mean that's another interesting thing like with the all the tracking that goes on on these phones and these uh this tech that we

have like are people going to start putting down their phones like jw weatherman came on and said he's going to start leaving his phone at home when he goes out like is the drive for the surveillance economy by the government going to force people to sort of try to unplug just to to stay away from from the orwellian overwatch yeah yeah it'll be uh it'll be interesting i mean just the uh you know trying to balance time with your family and time with work when you know that your work and your engagement with the you know the bitcoin community globally is just so accessible right there in your phone and we have like support chat on my phone and i have twitter on my phone and i have slack on my phone to you know work with the team and all these things and it's like

yeah if you want to be a good dad to a five-year-old and a two-year-old and like a stand-up husband you know you need to really block off some some quality time where you leave the phone in a different room yeah yeah how do you manage all that running a company having having young children trying to trying to balance that act you you might get different answers from the two adults in the home uh mrs swan probably thinks i'm falling a little bit short but um i mean broadly like my setup is uh i take them in the morning so i'm kind of like with the kids from the time they wake up at like 6 or 6 30 uh until my wife kind of gets up and about around like 9 9 30 so i'm kind of like on my phone and with the kids for like and this is this is a you know covid

contemporary with not taking them to school this is kind of how it's been working for the last couple months and and we'll be working for the next three or so at least um and so i have kind of that three hour block where I'm kind of working and engaging and doing Twitter and setting agendas for the day and kind of just thinking while also managing the kids. And then I have kind of like an unbroken block of work from call it like nine 30 until about four 30, something like that. So I get to get like a good solid seven hours. And then it's kind of like, you kind of start getting pulled into some house things. And it's kind of, again, another three hours from like four to seven where it's bouncing back and forth between work and family and then really like 6 30 to 8 30 when

i can get the second i put both girls to bed as well so um usually so that's kind of like phone is away for those two hours so there's two hours each day where i'm like just with the kids and then also when we uh you know my wife and i not only auto stack swan and chill we also netflix and chill uh late at night and i leave my phone in a different room for our you know hour and a half, two hours of just kind of like hanging and talking. And she's gotten really good at making cocktails. Uh, she already was pretty good, but it's off the charts now. What, uh, what are your go-to cocktails these days? Uh, she just bought a ton of fresh mint. So she's been making a lot of mojitos. Um, she also, I'm usually tired at night. So she tries to like jack me up on caffeine

so I can hang longer and, you know, watch another show or, or talk some more. So she'll make a pretty incredible espresso martini. So she likes to jack me up with that late night, which is funny. um but otherwise i think you already know i'm uh i'm a huge fan of just like scotch neat i love scotch yeah i'm a huge fan of espresso martinis too it's like espresso martini season down here as well um yeah now it's one thing uh i'm plugging in the quality time very similar schedules i have uh most days when i when i don't have to to get up and do something early if i have like a lot of calls i try to get to ben out earlier but yeah waking up at 5 30 and chilling chilling with my son until like 8 30 9 and then um yeah busting ass until like 5 30 sometimes later than that

and he goes to bed around 8 so it's very similar um but it is weird with his new i just said it new normal i don't like to say no new normal because i think things will get back to i'm i don't i think things will get back to what normal whatever normal is what things were at some point um i'm not as i'm not as worried about everybody being uh being stationed in our pods for the rest of eternity but um it was an easy transition for me because i already worked from home and the only the only hiccup this has thrown at me is i mainly used to record these episodes in person with people and that's the only sort of transition i've had to make but you guys are completely distributed right so you never had an office you you've been building this product

um remotely with each other yeah so yeah that's right yeah we've got uh let's see we've got chicago lawrence kansas some small town outside of frankfurt uh hawaii new york city brooklyn right by you actually that's where matt lives ruby uh and then only uh andy and i are here in la area but we never see each other in person anyway hawaii who's in hawaii uh one of our meme warriors that does a lot of like social media stuff for us robbie yeah oh and i should mention and guy swan so guys uh actually doing all of our like pr media outreach and and like pitching you know jan and andy and me and and brady and and himself and brecky for you know podcasts and articles and stuff like that so he's he's uh learning the pr trade and approaching

people as a peer like i also am in media and it's uh it's starting to pay off he's booking a lot of appearances for us which is awesome bitcoin audible yeah man best pivot i've seen in this space yes economy yes um great new title i love it yeah so what do you uh what are you most looking forward to in the bitcoin world i think outside of what you guys are doing at swan what uh what be paying attention to um obviously you got uh bitcoin or bitcoin adventures as well what uh what's what's the whole ethos behind that and yeah why are you guys doing that so bitcoin adventures is is uh the actualization of an idea i had in like summer of 18 so i basically you know i got into bitcoin proper in spring of 17 started going down the rabbit hole did the shit coin

horseshoe for about 10 months became a maximalist by like march or april of 18 um and so that summer i was looking at it and you know i'd come from startups and raising money and stuff like that and i was looking at bitcoin startups and it was look like okay these tokens and ico projects have no problem raising money because they're creating money out of thin air and people are dumb enough to believe that these bitcoin startups face this incredible difficulty of if you don't understand Bitcoin or care about it, you're not going to invest in Bitcoin startup. If you do understand and care about Bitcoin, then you're most likely just going to want to own as much Bitcoin as possible and not really going to allocate much spare change to just about anything else.

And so from the beginning, my thought was, okay, you would probably need a very large LP base, you know, base of limited partners. You need a lot of people to have like a Bitcoin ecosystem fund. So I started a little telegram group with like Dan Held, Steve Lee, and a few other people trying to noodle on like what this could become that dates way back to summer of 18 and i kind of shelved it um you know through through the winter and just kept on kind of like thinking about it in the background and when i had the idea for give bitcoin which evolved into swan and we started to meet a lot of people i started to realize okay like we seem to be pretty good at finding hand raisers from around the world that want to invest in swan like they just hit

us up on Twitter, ping us on LinkedIn, or find some way to get introduced to us and say, like, hey, do you guys need money? And I know that's partially because we're super easy to understand, and we're also very public and very noisy. But it got me thinking, okay, now on the backs of this is probably the time to start, you know, what we decided to call Bitcoiner Ventures. So it evolved out of the original idea. And then, you know, Marty, you and I both know the the bitcoiners telegram group is a good group of people and it's pretty you know pretty heavy hitting and been able to you know source some good ideas and have good intel and we have people that we can ask about different technologies and different companies and kind of surface ideas

there now we have a bitcoiner ventures community group that is constantly sort of pitching us ideas and those will be things like what you're working on like great american mining or steven barber you know upstream data or you know the lollies and the folds and the unchains and the casas and the lightning labs and you know satoshi energy and zap wallet swan things like that so these are the types of companies that we want to fund over time and uh so we decided to hang up a shingle and actually create the thing so the partners are myself jan pritzker who's been a long-time angel in addition to uh operating startups and then stefan lavera um from the stefan lavera podcast and lewis lu who's uh becoming a little bit better known he was uh he has a family office

that invests out of invest his own money in a few different startups including unchained and us and um really is into lightning guys constantly sending me lightning stuff and then um also was working at block tower as a junior investor for re paul uh and in that seat after looking at all of the other options out there he accidentally became a maximalist while he was in that seat and so he recently left block tower and is working on bitcoin adventures um yeah that's uh it's usually what happens you see yeah all the shit out there it does happen does happen a lot it's funny how many people at uh at galaxy are like full-on maximalists now uh we just we just got another junior person from galaxy to invest in swan and it's like not that surprising if you

spend this much time in the space and you have a brain at some point other than just making money you usually end up becoming a maximalist it seems like well and this it's into an interesting topic we can dive down to is like is it more profitable in the long run like do you see it being more profitable for you at swan and then i do want to loop back on bitcoin or ventures talk about like um investing in bitcoin companies versus investing in bitcoin directly but focusing on bitcoin only companies right now like it's like you saw coinbase added oh my's go to their token suite today and they couldn't they last week they they crashed when the price got a little volatile um and so that sort of on that lack of focus that coinbase uh seems to at

least to me to be uh displaying to the rest of the market i think that's going to hurt them in the long run is this i won't ask any leading questions here but is this part of the decision that went in to being bitcoin only because you can finance is very profitable selling shit coins and reaping the fees from that yeah yeah i mean it's i mean i would never do either of those businesses for the same reason that i wouldn't get into you know selling cigarettes or you know trying to sell oxycontin through side channels and you know try to get our doctors to you know push that on people that didn't really need it. Those are all similar businesses to me. So I think we saw that the opportunity was wide open and it wasn't clear until we kind of got in a bit how wide open the

opportunity was just to sell only Bitcoin. But if you go on Coinbase's homepage, I think it's the number 13 or number 14 call to action as you scroll from the top and keep going down to just basically do what you ought to be doing with bitcoin which is just buying some regularly like it's it's totally buried um you know and you've got the the winkle via always tweeting crypto things and things that are bad for you and bitcoin ira is like putting out charts talking about 589 ripple and sending that to your grandma it's like there's so many bad actors in space yeah they actually sent an email you know basically presenting one of those twitter charts about like why ripple can get to 589 and they sent that to people that put their money in iras

that's like a five trillion dollar market cap for ripple right i have no idea i don't know just horrible people um but yeah i mean getting back to coinbase yeah i mean i think they've just left this thing wide open because they're trying to juice revenue everywhere and trying to squeeze money out of everybody all over the place they want you to trade that same you know thousand dollars 50 times not just put it into bitcoin and let it sit there because they make fees on the in and the out every single time and you know i they know that the support costs for a customer that's just buying bitcoin isn't worth it to them and that's why they charge 9.9 percent for the smallest buys you know we're going the opposite direction you know we launched with i think uh

so our lowest fee is like 0.99 percent and that's as long as you're doing 50 bucks a week or more and you prepay your fees annually it's 0.99 it's 1.19 if you're doing pay as you go so just like set up your plan and you're just like paying your fees as you go it's 1.19 our our smallest you know the the minnow tier people they're doing like five dollars a month or ten dollars a week or something we are actually lowering that fee so our new fees there are uh 2.29 for pay as you go and 1.99 so just under two percent for uh for prepaid fees on the very smallest buys versus coinbase and gemini being at like 9.9 yeah yeah i mean that's what i got i that's how i got introduced to bitcoin was coinbase where i bought a lot of my sats early in in my journey it's just

like such a shame to see them fuck up this opportunity and and again mislead their users like oh my's go they added that today like why would you add that isn't that like a dead project um and it really it and it's i mean that you even that you even know that it is or isn't actually kind of scares me i have no idea yeah i mean i just because i remember during the 2017 like ico craze and i was covering it for the bent i was like one of the huge ones that pumped and it was all hump and no red rocket nothing ever came of it and that's why like trying to call out scammers in the space like vitalik like personally endorsed that and advised it and um it's uh it's interesting to see how much people are getting away with but again it's

capitalism the uh the opportunity uh for individuals to make their own mistakes is should definitely persist but uh and that's what i'm so and uh so happy about the last two years particularly is that bitcoin only companies are coming to market and uh it'll be interesting to see if we head into another bull run uh who who ends up surviving or at least being more popular on the other yeah yeah i mean and tying that back into bitcoin adventures like so i i do believe that uh some of this current cohort of bitcoin only companies will far out perform the bitcoin price um i would not say that a basket of them will but someday i don't know if it's at the end of the next cycle so like if we're talking again in you know 2025 or 2026 or something like that

and you know there's a new cohort of bitcoin only startups that started in 2023 24 or whatever you know there will be a time and we just want to be ready for it with the infrastructure there where i actually think like a basket of of good bitcoin startups that will actually be really smart to own those because it'll be a little bit more about adoption and services and lightning and payments and all of these other things so for me like i'm going to be in bitcoin for the rest of my career you know getting started today and building out that infrastructure and finding the hand raisers around the world who are, you know, interested at least in learning about Bitcoin startups and occasionally writing checks, you know, whatever their calculation is on risk

reward, they may make a judgment. You know, I personally have made the judgment that, you know, I personally think that, you know, Swan's going to outperform Bitcoin. You know, I think our equities outperform the Bitcoin price over the lifetime of this company, or I wouldn't be doing it. I'd just go work corporate and, you know, stack sats with the excess. I'm taking a startup salary instead of working at google and mckenzie like obviously i believe in this thing um but uh i do uh i do think that we're probably like a cycle or two away from like a basket of bitcoin only startups outperforming bitcoin on price i think bitcoin has a lot of legs left certainly does it's a bold bold bold statement outperform bitcoin performance outperform the corn yeah i

I mean, I don't know. I mean, BitMEX did 2,200X in four years on their equity since their seed round and Coinbase was like, you know, even after it was already pretty large and they had like a really high priced A round and they did another like 16 or 20X in the next three or four years. Like it's not unreasonable

for some of these businesses to grow. And especially if you're talking about getting into the seed round, which is our focus, that's our desired entry point for Bitcoin Ventures is kind of like sub 20 million. There's a lot of upside for these companies potentially. yeah so how's that does it work similar to bank for the future but like without the shit coin and without all that like you're just looking to get in you're looking to get in oh yeah yeah so

so we probably will eventually have a committed capital fund and just operate like a normal vc but for now it's uh angelist syndicates so you go and you you know sign up for angelist and subscribe to the syndicate and then you have the right but not the obligation to invest in our deals so just go to bitcoinerventures.com and uh and you can see the link to the angel syndicate there or you can just sign up and leave your email address and we'll let you know what's going on but we are just about to close down our first deal which uh hopefully when jan is on in a few weeks here uh he can announce that but it's a well-loved well-known bitcoin company and we're super proud that they're our first one and being able to contribute some money into their current round

yeah what's the uh what's the minimum check somebody has to write a thousand fed bucks it's not bad at all they're printing that every millisecond right yeah and that's like if it does outperform bitcoin if any of these companies that could be life-changing for so many so like that whole concept of letting retail um get into these rounds is very fascinating well angelist remember is accredited investors so it's not everybody so you self-certify but you got to answer some questions and like angelist has to certify you to be able to invest in deals so that's not that's not crowdfunding no okay i didn't realize that yeah you have to have more 250 000 assets or tradable assets at least whatever whatever their rules are yeah um we

are looking at, I've been talking to the Republic people as well about doing Republic raises, which is actually proper crowdfunding. So they kind of spun out of AngelList. I think it's the AngelList CFO or something like that. And they seem to have their, they have a pretty tight filter on who they actually work with. And they have like a really professional team and they have reputable partners. They use the same custodian that we do, Prime Trust. So I'm feeling pretty comfortable with those guys so maybe we will actually do some some big global crowd fundings for some of these as well where it makes sense like that could make sense for something like swan where it's you know it's a one sentence pitch it's not particularly techie it's easy to understand so you know that

that might be you know or something that's you know kind of really well known because it's kind of like a household name or or has a large user base so something like a fold that has many tens of thousands of users or like uh like an unchanged that has you know so many people reading parker's series you know i think those those become more marketable it'll be hard to do crowdfunding for something that's uh you know a little bit more techie and arcane and you know doesn't have isn't particularly marketable to a broad base now you bring us brings up an interesting point like the uh content marketer to actually be successful at least in my opinion moving forward you have to be good at content and providing good content valuable content and parker certainly does

it's gradually and suddenly obviously you have the head of education um on your brady working on all this stuff to get it out there and guy educating people uh with his content which is And Brekkie. Brekkie is the general in the great Bitcoin meme wars of the 2020s. I mean, we've got something coming out called The Arsenal. So it'll be launching soon. It'll be at swanbitcoin.com slash arsenal. And basically are going to be a lightly curated repository of every single thing that you could possibly want to win the Bitcoin meme wars globally. Yeah, his blockchain and Morty series is incredible. yeah yeah he'd probably like to forget the crypto brekkie days we've got a lot of people that have

shed their skin and become all 100 bitcoin over the last few years it's i mean it's hard to find somebody who went straight uh straight maximalist or just understood the value prop and it's i mean again going back to the nature of these open systems it's it's easy to get distracted when there's so many shiny things running around and i think um brecky's doing a good job of spreading the good knowledge particularly on instagram that's something i'm terrible at that uh that uh yeah he will fight and he'll you know he'll befriend people and like steer the ship slowly you know he maintains relationships with a bunch of the crypto youtubers and he just tries to get them to like insert bitcoin videos here it's uh that's like yeah it's another world that's

matt was bringing that up he's got friends diving into the space and they're going to youtube first and he's worried he's like oh my god what are you watching there's it's like a whole other world of with an insane amount of people producing content they don't even know about um it's it's the first way some people are getting exposed which is it's weird like how do we how do we get like our content to be the first thing people come to there's always something that's on my i don't know and i actually don't know how they keep their channels up because you know ours got banned fairly quickly um what happened there uh are you still yeah we're still banned um so yeah we got banned uh as soon as we put up a placeholder video that had uh francis

pulio's name in it really either that or i think the title had coronavirus it's probably the coronavirus but uh but it was like we're gonna talk bitcoin macro and like you know coronavirus with francis and uh and pierre uh this is you know late march or something like that and uh they they took it down and banned our channel and we have not been able to appeal to get that back up um so yeah so every week we put out swan signal live which is wednesday mornings at 10 or 11 pacific and uh we always have two guests it's kind of like a good cross-conversational format we try to find interesting pairings of people that you might you know want to hear from both of them on a topic and uh and yeah we uh we can't put it on youtube on our swan bitcoin channel

because the channel's gone i'm surprised we haven't been banned yet we talk a lot we've talked a lot about coronavirus on this podcast but i think uh we get away just do you put this on youtube uh i mean yeah i have like a just put the audio on it just put the audio on i have some upload.fm some 16 year old made an app that allows you to automatically pull from your podcast rss feed on youtube and just put that up there it's a placeholder picture very low low budget um low production but value but it gets it to a different audience people want to listen on youtube um and that's like i tried to do a live stream recently like my internet down where i am is not conducive for for live streaming um content and that is youtube is definitely a medium where

there's a lot of sharks uh and there's been i've seen like a lot of trading group ads recently which is discouraging um it'll be again going back to where we are now like do you think the public beyond um beyond our little bubble on crypto or bitcoin twitter excuse me i'm gonna say crypto twitter um under like is bitcoin so much of a household name that that people will naturally gravitate towards it and be able to avoid the scams going forward will the scams be as powerful as they were in the past i think it won't be as powerful as they were in the past or at least the percentages the percentage of the people of new people getting caught up in them i don't think will be as high as the last cycle but it'll still be economically worth it for the scammers to do it

because you know i think the i think the overall number of people coming in in 2021 is going to be you know probably 10x what it was in 2017 and so even if you're coming even if you're capturing let's so let's say that they were capturing like three quarters of the people initially in bitcoin only was capturing like 25 percent like let's say all of the great work by you guys and stefan and brady and safe's book and jan's book and nude's book and all these great you know educational resources and all the evangelizing and all the white blood cells that we've sort of built with uasf and taco plebs and all this like fight so hard and like we double our effectiveness so that we actually stop half of the people twice as many as last time from getting involved in

shit coins you know the shit coins are still going to be up like 5x so i think there are going to be a lot of people getting wrecked this cycle too and a lot of dumb people getting rich um from scams and uh you know but i think our our pie our market share is getting bigger yeah no i got a i was made aware of a five coins to five million dollar scam that's going around it's not like a one coin or a bit connect like i said on rabbit hole recaps i didn't understand what was going on apparently it's just some investor letter people are buying and it's he's saying that um uh crypto.com's coin and chin uh cosmos are all going to go to like a million dollars a coin and at some point he's pushing that on his his

newsletter leader readers freaks if you're buying trading advice or paying for somebody to tell you how to trade it's not the way to do it people are not going to give up their secrets if they have a market edge it's uh it's wishful thinking if it sounds too good to be true it probably is um it's been a fascinating conversation what uh where can we learn more about what you're doing or we're keeping up to keeping up to pace with what you're doing and yeah i mean so we we have a pretty uh active blog at swan signal i'm sorry it's well swan bitcoin.com slash signal i think but you can just find the blog um jan has a bunch of stuff up there brady and myself we have a lot of guest posts from people like bitcoin tina and

guy and other folks um my 10 10 million bitcoiners the intransigent minority kind of tying in the whole like to levy in to bitcoin thing and like my personal view that we need 10 million bitcoiners in the u.s to just sort of like make this thing really go um so that's kind of the mission of the company so that piece is up there um we have a very active telegram group at t.me slash swan signal so that's where we actually take uh crowd questions and just sort of keep the discussion going all week long around the swan signal show um swan bitcoin on twitter and uh corey clipston on twitter pretty easy to find me 10 million bitcoiners in the u.s alone you think we're close what's the number right now no not very close i mean the way that we're defining

it is like having a meaningful amount of bitcoin so you have skin in the game and then you know basically understanding it and caring about it to the point where you would like write a letter to your local rep if you had to or show up at a town hall meeting and yell at them for being the gestapo if they tried to do something anti-bitcoin uh i'm like two miles away from the border of brad sherman's district so uh yeah so if it ever if it ever needs to you know maybe we'll just like move across the border and start showing up and raising some hell over there start voting against him that dude is such an idiot yeah he's pretty bad um but yeah i mean our estimation is that about uh about seven million people globally have uh a hundred dollars or more worth of bitcoin

and i think the number you know if you kind of like just you kind of and this is all in in the piece and i've looked at it a little bit but basically we kind of get to we think there's about a hundred thousand people in the u.s that both understand bitcoin and own like something meaningful and let's just say that's like 2500 bucks worth or something like that um and so yeah we basically think we need to like 100x that to get to 10 million which then gets you over the hump of the intransigent minority which is usually like three to four percent of a population where somebody with you know really uh strong views and intolerant minority can sort of flip society to doing things the way that they want them done because they're noisy about it

which is the same concept as like regulatory capture or kosher food everywhere things like that you know you only need about three or four percent to really really believe in something and everybody follows founding fathers yeah they made up i think two to three percent of the colonial citizens they changed the world forever they did indeed yeah we uh we very much believe in uh in bitcoin for america so yeah i mean let's let's go make it happen by the way did you see our bitcoin for america video i think you did yeah yeah with obama yeah he said said sup freaks that was that was reggie brown who's been kind of the the top uh obama person impersonator for the last 12 years or so another guy we know from uh from chicago days and uh yes we had him do a

like a bitcoin speech and he made a bunch of dfdc references and i love that sup freaks sup freaks i was much appreciated he's um it's funny hearing i would love to hear uh the real obama say something like that um he didn't real obama has mentioned bitcoin before swiss bank account in your pocket he's got to be stacking right barack he's too smart not to be stacking i imagine everybody in that that class just um if you have that much money it doesn't make sense not to allocate at least a little bit and who knows maybe is uh maybe he is uh loyal to the empire and doesn't stack in uh in solidarity with with the uh with the fiat monetary system who knows though it would be just depressing but um yeah it's it is interesting to

think about it i mean there's a uh i i i am aware that one of kushner's best friends socially is a big hodler and has been to the white house three times to talk about bitcoin over the years yeah matt matt says that donnie donnie stacks somebody somebody in his he uh he assumes that somebody in and donald circle is holding bitcoin probably his sons well i just checked the dashboard by the way and i was just thinking about paul tudor jones and i wanted to see uh so our our best day for signups ever was the the day that paul tudor jones came out saying that he was huddling however i don't care whatever for him futures spot don't care cold storage hot storage even if he has it on coinbase i don't care just the fact that he's buying it is awesome

um you know everybody else will follow that and hopefully we'll teach them how to do it properly but uh yeah today on a friday we are uh we are one sign up away from uh our all-time high hell yeah congrats dude you sure you're not streaming live yeah might not might be i hope yeah this this is nuts usually we i mean we have we close the books at 5 p.m pacific every day so i have like five more hours to go i think we're gonna have our all-time high today well congrats on that. Keep Chuck, keep chugging along, keep spreading the good word, keep educating and appreciate you coming by, man. I know, uh, I know I had to switch up the time today. I'm sorry for throwing that on you. Um, but yeah, keep crushing it, man. Yeah. Working hard, man. We're just, uh,

trying to, trying to do what we can to bring about a bright orange future. Yeah. Every little bit helps. Yeah. Well, we're going to keep pushing alongside you and, um, yeah that's all we got this week freaks peace and love