TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #179: Kevin Mulcrone

Episode Date: July 14, 2020

Join Marty and Matt as they sit down with Kevin Mulcrone, founder of Lily Wallet, to discuss: - Free Banking Systems of the past - The Civil War + banking in America - Building Lily Wallet - Lily's plans for the future - Live music + blue grass - much more Follow Kevin on Twitter Checkout his website Checkout Lily Wallet Shoutout to this week's sponsors. Cash App. Start #stackingsats today. Use the promo code: "stackingsats" to receive $10 and contribute $10 to OWLS Lacrosse when you download the app.

What's up, freaks? It's your boy Marty here to introduce this episode of Tales from the Crypt. I know, I promised that this would get out yesterday on Rabbit Hole Recap last week, but busy. Been a busy, busy beginning of this week. But, alas, here comes the episode with Kevin Mulcrone. Matt and I sat down with Kevin Mulcrone, the creator of Lily Wallet, a multi-sig quorum setup. i guess that's how you describe it but uh basically a base software um for bitcoiners to use to to set up multi-sig wallets and as you'll see in the interview um kevin has has big plans for the future of lily and and uh what else it'll incorporate uh so that bitcoiners can

leverage uh open source software and and custody their bitcoin in a truly sovereign way i think you guys are really gonna like this episode this episode is brought to you by our good friends at the motherfucking cash app you should know you should already know all about them but if you don't let me tell you about them the cash app is helping you stack sats help you send sats receive sats and it has made sats the standard if you want to in the app you can toggle it you can use bitcoin as a standard or sats the standard instead of buying a fraction of a bitcoin when you make sats the standard you're buying whole sats feels a little bit better on top of that you can auto dca into bitcoin using the cash app you can buy daily weekly bi-weekly you can set it and

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and a routing number and direct deposit your paychecks into the app now pretty dope as always use the code stacking sats that's one word s-t-a-c-k-i-n-g-s-a-t-s you're going to get one dollar one dollar excuse me times that by ten ten dollars and ten dollars is going to go to our good friends at owls lacrosse that's owls lacrosse oh oh oh fuck you wow enjoy this episode with kevin mulcrone You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free. When you talk about a Fed just gone nuts, all the central banks going nuts. So it's all acting like safe haven.

I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor. I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin. If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. what is up freaks welcome back to tales from the crypt it's a beautiful thursday afternoon as we head into fourth of july weekend here i just got out of the water not wearing a shirt my nipples are showing on the zoom call i'm sorry gentlemen uh i'm joined matt odell's with us and we are sitting down yo yo yo kevin with kevin mulcrone uh who's been creating dope multi-sig software

He forked Caravan and made it compatible with Coldcard and has recently released the Lily Wallet, which has similar functionalities. We'll get into that at some point in this podcast, but I did some research on Kevin's website, and he has an extremely exciting background. Before we get to that, Kevin, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you on. Yeah, thanks for having me on here. Why are you Matt? I am excited to be talking. This is going to be a fun conversation. We're going to go a little economics in as well as some technical details of the apps you've been building. We're going to talk about economics because you did a double major. Or is this one major?

Computer science and philosophy, politics, and the public. Yeah, so it's a double major. The philosophy, politics, and the public was like an interdisciplinary philosophy and politics program at Xavier University where I went to school. um and then i just tacked on the computer science for fun and to actually get a job so well as somebody who studied economics i burnt all my electives on philosophy uh classes and i always have really good conversations with people who studied philosophy in depth in college i think it's very applicable to what we're doing with bitcoin and i think bitcoin is very philosophically driven at the end of the day and so your senior thesis paper was called free money

how distrust severed government's role in banking and why the civil war ruined it um because you were interested in hayek and the denationalization of money what was the crux of that uh paper and and and how would you describe the free banking system as it existed in the late 1800s yeah totally um yeah so my i think my junior year of uh college uh you know i read rhoda serfdom in high school um was pretty aware of hayek and like the austrian school uh by the time i hit college and uh in my junior year i read the denationalization of money um which is like hayek's book it's like the argument for concurrent currencies um and so in the book he basically asks you know the question of like why is it that money is different than like other

commodities that exist on the open market um and basically makes the argument that it should be treated just like any other um any other good that you buy in the open market so anything like computers or um you know corn or laptops or whatever um and so you can like compete with that and uh so i read the book and was like i had to sit down for my thesis paper i had to write a thesis for the philosophy and politics major and kind of started doing research on it and was curious to see if what Hayek had talked about in the book had ever actually existed at any point in history. So started doing the research on that and actually found out that it did exist for this brief like 30 year period of time in the United States and it was like right before

the Civil War. It was right when Andrew Jackson killed the second bank of the United States. So I kind of found that that existed, then started doing research into what that was, how it worked, and then ultimately wrote this thesis paper and made an argument about explaining how it worked, explaining why it came about, and then explained my thoughts on why it basically went away. Um, and we returned to this like uniform monopoly money, um, that the government issued. Yeah. So let's dive into free banking a little bit. Free banking basically states that, or the way it would be structured is there, there would be a reserve asset that was sort of agreed upon, but individual banks would be able to, uh, use that reserve asset to issue their own currencies.

Correct? Yeah, basically. Um, I mean, there was really no rules. Um, so you, you technically didn't even need, uh, to have like a reserve, like you didn't need to have it backed by gold. Um, you would just have, you know, like the, the, the example I give in the paper is the Manhattan company, which was a water company in New York city. Um, it's actually, if you look, if you, you could do the lineage of it, it's actually

what chases today. Um, they can go all the way back to the Manhattan company and, um, yeah, it was like a water company in New York. and in the charter for their incorporation it said that um any like excess reserves so any extra money that they had they could lend out to other people and that basically allowed them to function as a bank um and so the free banking system yeah you could have like you know companies like the manhattan company you could have um like universities like you know harvard um and they could basically you know issue bank notes um because that was legal and those bank notes

usually were backed by something like gold or silver and um they could just operate as banks so instead of having like one uniform currency um like the dollar or the greenback um you would have like these notes from like harvard or from the manhattan company and they would just like operate as as currency so you would trade them back and forth for for milk or eggs or machinery or whatever so so how um how did this wind up working out and why did the civil war sort of destroy it yeah so so when you have a system like that um you know the government uh so when you have a system like that the only way government can like raise money is you can you can tax and you can borrow and you can print and so um when the government has when the government has monopoly

on money, you know, that printing is, is an option. And that's like very much a tempting option to use to, to raise money and to, um, kind of meet the needs of government. Um, but when you have private currency, like under this free banking system, um, the government cannot print money because they do not issue money. So, um, under the system, like you have all these bank notes that are in circulation, they all have, uh, different values in relation to one another based on characteristics like, you know, how well known the company is, what reserves they have in their vaults. And so when the Civil War started to break out and the South seceded from the Union, this private currency was what was, this was like the system that we had. And so government,

you either had to borrow or you had to tax. And they tried borrowing, but interest rates at the time were like 25 30 35 percent so that was just like an unsustainable way of of funding the civil war um and then taxing too you know like you're going through war you can only tax so much and and they basically exhausted that as well and so um i think it was like salmon chase was was lincoln's uh secretary of the treasury was basically like yeah we need to have this we need to be in control of the currency because we cannot pay for this war unless we are able to print more money um and they use that money to you know pay their soldiers uh to buy like the necessary equipment for the war um and and ultimately that's so the civil war was basically what

stopped this the system from happening they said no more private currency we're issuing our own currency the greenback and uh we're going to use it to pay all the soldiers and to buy all their stuff was it uh was it temporary at the time when they initiated the greenback they say hey we'll go back to this after the war or did they you know um that's a great question i i want to say it was temporary uh i i saw the paper about like three or four years ago um i want to say it was probably supposed to be temporary but like all things with government um once you start doing it you know it's hard to go it's hard to go back so um i think that yeah they ultimately you know it never went back to the free banking system that's for sure and so did your study of uh

this period in banking just draw you to bitcoin were you already interested in bitcoin at this point um how did how did you fall down the rabbit hole yeah so i was thinking about this before i got on the show so i uh actually first heard about bitcoin in um i took ap computer science in high school um i went to a really big high school we had like 4 000 kids and so we had like a really solid ap program and uh so me and like i think there was like 12 or 15 kids in this class and we we were a bunch of we were a bunch of freaks uh we were just like weird we were the weird kids um in school and like we we had the class would be like we do like i think it met i forgot how many times it'd be but it was like half the time like the teacher would be teaching

and then the other half the time it would be like uh kind of like group projects and like group programming and stuff and i remember uh there was this kid steven who was wicked he was like the smartest kid i think i've ever met um and he i remember i came in one day and him and his friends were kind of like sitting in the corner of the room and they were talking about how they were like mining bitcoin and uh using it to buy um things on silk road and uh so you know you're you're in high school and you're like that's kind of cool like and i remember he said yeah if you want like come over to my house after school and uh we'll like get on our laptops and like you can like look at it i was like sweet like that sounds dope um so that's like kind of

how i first heard about bitcoin uh so he was mining it he was doing that i didn't really like i didn't buy anything i didn't uh do anything i just kind of like was like oh that's cool um didn't understand like what it even was it was just like this anonymous currency that you could use online um and then let's see so yeah that that all happened but um i was really interested in economics since even before that in high school i had a my sophomore year of high school i had a chemistry teacher uh mr soffitt and uh he was a huge ron paul guy so he my dad had kind of like i overheard like my dad talking about ron paul sometimes like at dinner and um mr soffitt was like talking about him like in class and um i remember he was like yeah you

should read you know the revolution of manifesto which is like ron paul's book when he was running in 2012 and uh i read that and was just like dude this is this makes so much sense um so that's and then then i just went down like the austrian rabbit hole so i've read like economics one lesson by henry hazlitt um and went to like these um he encouraged me to go these like foundation for economic education um summer seminars so i went to like a few of those and um yeah just like really was into like the free market kind of like economics um and and so it's weird though because those went like parallel like so i was into that uh knew bitcoin was the thing but never really connected the dots between them um until like 2017 basically that's uh you're lucky you

got started down that path the austrian path early in life i had uh i had to find it after college after i was indoctrinated with the keynesian view yeah well it's funny me and my brother joke uh we we so this was like 2012 ish 2011 ish and uh you know i was like yeah like the fed they're just like printing so much money it's ridiculous we should buy gold and uh that was when gold was at like 1800 bucks so we bought the top we bought the top of gold and uh actually i sent him a text last week because it's kind of been going up a little bit and um i was like dude we might like break even after almost 10 years it's the uh it's the best peter schiff meme going around it's like gold at 1200 bitcoin at one dollar gold at 1200 bitcoin at 20 000

exactly yeah so you know it's it's uh yeah it's just interesting um how those that kind of like ran parallel and uh didn't really connect the dots though until until like 2017 um i i it was weird i didn't even like it's kind of embarrassing to say but i feel like i didn't even realize that there was like the 21 million limit on bitcoin until then um and then of course once you realize that then it's like oh this is gold like this is digital gold so so the whole like bull market crypto bonanza pull you back in yeah so um yeah basically what happened was um so in 2017 i i didn't take classes my second semester of my senior year um i just i jammed all the credits in early in college and so all i had to do my second semester was write that thesis paper

and um i got a job at a local startup in cincinnati where i went to school and was working with um this other guy uh building this app and uh he was really into cryptocurrency too and so 2017 was happening and like i remember we'd have like two monitors and like one of them always just had like coin market cap on it and um so like you know we we would just talk about it all the time and um that was like when ethereum was kind of like popping off too and uh we were both into live music so we we went to concerts together and um we knew some like promoters in town that were into concerts and been putting on shows um and one of the use cases that was like being shilled for ethereum was you could do like live event ticketing and um basically the startup we

were working for like ran out of money like they just didn't have any more money in the bank account um and i remember they were like the the person that was running it came in and was just like yeah like we can't pay you guys this this paycheck and so i was like oh that's that's lame um so they they issued us they gave us laptops there to work there and so i told them i was like well we're out of money i'm just gonna take this laptop and uh i'm gonna go home and this mine now because this is my paycheck and uh we used those laptops then to make this like live event ticketing platform on ethereum um basically spent like two months doing that uh and then realized that the tech there just like was not where it needed to be like we were just running

into like really weird bugs um and it just like wasn't really it was slow like to propagate the block times and uh we ended up basically scrapping the ethereum mvp and using just like a mongodb uh database for it um ud would love that story did you ico anything no no we were very like we saw everything that was going on with the icos and i i'm very risk averse and i was like i'm not gonna raise this money and like end up in jail you know in two years when it realizes that we can't do it very good call yeah so we were very we like bootstrapped everything because also like you know we had it was this boom that was going on so we did have like some runway um on our own and i was still you know i was just out of college so i was still on my parents insurance and um so yeah

we kind of take a stab at that um realized that ethereum wasn't the way to do it and in fact it was weird because at the same time um i remember listening to laura laura shin's podcast and she He had Tur Demeester on it and it was like the title of the podcast was like why I'm a Bitcoin maximalist and it was like the week after we kind of like scrapped the Ethereum thing and we're like this is just this isn't going to work for customers like we can't sell this product and he laid out like his maximalist position very succinctly very well. I remember like the one argument he made was like just like the size of the blockchain was like humongous on Ethereum versus Bitcoin which has been around for like double or triple

as long um and then also too just like the amount of like smart phd level developers that were working on bitcoin versus like these kind of like you know javascript developers that were working on ethereum so hey hey kevin i'm just i'm just laying it out so yeah so that happened and um yeah and then we kind of like went with the the ticketing thing for a few more months we actually like used it in two or three different events um and then actually the third event um we actually had this like ticket fraud happen where this guy in new york um had basically like stolen a bunch of credit cards and was using he was using the stolen credit cards to buy tickets for this festival that was going on uh he would then transfer the tickets onto our ticketing platform

like the resale market and then would then sell it to people and then charge back the credit cards classic so that elaborate yeah so that happened and um so like we lot you know we were basically out like four or five thousand dollars and we were like all right this is we can't do this anymore and uh so we ended up like just closing shop on that hey you built something you tried yeah it seems like well if you would have had bitcoin like that would have that wouldn't have happened you know there's no charge next yeah exactly but i mean covid would have killed your business regardless so yeah so it's a blessing in disguise for sure uh i noticed that you're you're in the bluegrass my sister has me listen to billy strings these days oh yeah billy strings

I just he was he plays Denver all the time uh I saw him back in December at the Ogden I was supposed to be in Boulder a few weeks ago but yeah everything's everything is on pause right now so yeah that dude can play the strings man I'm a big bluegrass fan myself it's a it's a great type of music yeah yeah that's what uh when you live in when you live in Cincinnati Kentucky for six years that's huge so um that's kind of how i got the bug on that yeah what uh who's your favorite blues blues grass artist um billy strings is definitely up there um i'm a big tony rice guy like that's classical bluegrass and then um who else i mean i was big like yonder mountain string band uh guy um jeff austin and um yeah i mean we get a ton of bluegrass out here in colorado

so uh i was supposed to be a telluride um two weeks ago but of course that got canceled so um it's just it's great music i love it it is great music um it's good high vibes music like if you're just looking to be be happy while listening to music blue bluegrass is the way to go yeah yeah it's good good car music good bike music yeah so the reason we tapped you on the or to come on this podcast because of the work you've been doing with multi-sig, particularly with you sort of forked Unchained's Caravan and made it compatible with Cold Card, which many users have been waiting for for quite some time.

And recently you released Lily, which seems to be like a standalone multi-sig wallet app. It has a really cool UX. And again, this is, I'll let you explain it. Uh, so is Lily basically a fork of what you have, the fork of caravan that you forked and, uh, a standalone product? Yeah. So, um, yeah, so I bought, um, I think cold card was running a sale on cold cards like

back in January and, um, or maybe December or something like that. And so I ended up buying three just cause I was interested. Um, I think you guys were talking about multi-sig on the podcast and, um, had was kind of just like interested in like how that would all work. um so i bought three cold cards just because i was curious and they kind of just sat in a drawer for like two months um and then when covid happened i was uh laid off my job and so went back to chicago and was like damn all right well let's figure out like let's see if we can figure out how multi-sig works and um see if we can put some coins in it and um so i looked at caravan

you guys have always been talking about caravan so i was like all right let's let's start here um and was messing around with that and it was really nice uh but it didn't support cold card so um i emailed the guys from unchained it was like hey i've got these cold cards i'm trying to use it with caravan because this is like a nice interface to use it with i don't want to use like command line and all that stuff um and they kind of got back to me i like bounced some ideas off them they got back to me and we eventually figured out um like the cold car kitchen uh product and um so once that i got that all working um i still had and i was still not working so i was like let's just go and build like a full-fledged wallet um because i looked at we

talked about this a little bit before the show but i was looking just at the wallet landscape and um and and the multi-sig wallet landscape and they're all just like very like so electrum um wasabi they're all great products and they have a ton of great features but they're very like technical and um when i was back home in chicago you know i'm with my parents and my brother and just like watching them interact with technology um it was like i'm never gonna be able to you know get them to use any of these wallets um but like multi-sig i feel like is like going to be like the foundation for how you secure bitcoin um like right now you know you use like a phone wallet or like one hardware wallet um but i think in the next few years you know everybody's going

to use multi-sig just because if you lose that hardware wallet then like all your money's gone um so to be able to like cycle those keys um and then also like with what i think like on chain's ultimately going to do is like you have like the one uh like a company hold on to one of those keys and that gives you a little bit more peace of mind um so yeah i was just trying to like explore this like multi-sig and how it worked got it working with with caravan and then was like well let's just like go and build like a full-fledged wallet um mainly because too like i just wanted like i wanted a wallet for myself um and i just didn't really want to use any of the options that were out there already and uh so kind of sat down and just started coding on it

and uh building out these interfaces that i thought looked pretty good and made sense and uh and um yeah and then just threw it out on twitter and you know see what see what would happen how's the feedback been has anybody hop into the github with you to sort of play around with it or yeah no the the response has been incredible honestly i'm blown away um i the amount of you know engagement that was on those tweets was really high i got a bunch of like dms from people saying like good job um and i've had a pretty decent group of people um who have been using it and then have been giving me feedback on it um like bitcoin rabbi for example like he was sending he's been sending me a bunch of messages messing around with it um he just bought like another

cold card so so right now it only works with cold card um that's definitely like number one on my list of of next steps is supporting other uh hardware vaults um but he brought another cold card and was like yeah like i'm super stoked to set it up and use it and um so he's been giving me a lot of feedback i don't have a few other people on twitter they've been giving me feedback um but it's it's been super supportive i mean um i'm i'm really just blown away by the amount of of positive feedback that people have given me so so it's a great community it only works with cold card but it it recognizes a trezor when you plug it in and shows the little trezor image right so so yeah that's a little i won't i'll call it a bug but uh i did like before releasing

it out i do have a trezor and i was like um all right let's see if i can get it to work with that uh just like plug it in and see if it works and uh it does because it uses andrew chow's hwi library so i need to put some sort of um like protection on that to uh basically only use cold card if it's something else just like kind of throw it away um or the better idea is just to support those hardware walls it was a little bit confusing to me because like treasure is like my fuck around device specifically because the treasure t it's really easy to put in the passphrase so like when you're fucking around with test multisigs you can just keep putting a different passphrase in and just use the same hardware wallet even though that doesn't really help you in the real world

so i was like fucking around with your wallet and my first instinct was to use the treasure the other i mean the other thing is i mean one of the key things we talk about here with multisig is one of the benefits it brings you is if one of these hardware wallets is insanely compromised like has this backdoor or something like that or just a huge vulnerability uh using multiple manufacturers is obviously it reduces your risk uh by using multi-sig with multi multiple manufacturers so i assume that's like a big goal of yours is to is to be able to add that and maybe even like add a key right right now lily doesn't support the ability to use lily as one of the signing keys right yeah so what um so so two things on that so yeah definitely by adding support for

these other hardware wallets you like distribute risk better so if there's a bug in in cold card um you know if you have all three cold cards like that's just going to be that's not good but if you distribute it among like a ledger a treasure and a and a cold card then you're distributing the risk and saying like okay two of these devices should be okay um or should not be have a vulnerability in them um but yeah and then number two yeah it would be really nice and i thought about this when i was adding the hd wallet functionality was it'd be really nice to yeah just be able to kind of create like a non-hardware wallet key and use that to sign as well yeah so then you have like a cold card a treasure or a cold card and ledger and then lily as the other

key exactly yeah so then you can um then yeah you don't need to pull out like two hardware devices um to sign the transaction you can pull out the one and then sign with lily um well not even lily because lily's just like the is like the thing that encapsulates all the hardware devices so you'd actually just create like another hd wallet and yeah name it whatever well that's uh one thing i really liked is the ux like with the cold car like pulling the xpub key by clicking on the image yeah how did uh how do you how do you think of that and how does that work technically yeah so you know i sat down and i was like really thinking i've had a lot of time to think because i haven't been working so i was thinking about you know what how do you connect like these

physical devices that work in the real world and and how do you like connect to your computer and how do you kind of mentally for a user uh create that link and um i think like apple i think i might have taken some stuff from like apple and like when you import like an iphone you know there's like this like blinking stuff that happens or like when you're connected like a bluetooth device you know there's like the blinking is kind of like the something's going on here um just like hold up you know so something's happening um and uh that's kind of like yeah where i came up with that um because it was like you know bitcoin's confusing in the fact that like you have all these letters and numbers and different cases and and again if like my mom and my brother are trying

to use it like they don't want they don't know what any of that stuff is it's very intimidating and uh so i was like well you have this physical device that exists in the real world so just like throw a picture on the screen and like that's you can then make that connection mentally um and that mental model i think i was actually talking to somebody on twitter about this that mental model actually brings like a additional sense of security i think because you aren't like double you're not second guessing yourself um i'm like what's going on you're not like rechecking like these addresses or these xpubs um so so yeah that was kind of uh yeah where i came up with that it was just right now and so what right now in the setup you have to

connect the cold card right like you have to connect it through usb you can't like paste an xpub in or import a file or something like that with sd card yeah so right now it's all um you have to so it uses hwi which is andrew chow's library um so you have to physically connect it to the usb um that's another feature that's definitely in the pipeline is you can either paste like copy and paste to next pub um or use you know cold card uses um you can just like export so you can export a file that has that information in it um and actually i've kind of thought about like the design on that it would just be you'd have like the pictures coming up but you could also just do like additional import options um and that would give you the opportunity to

connect you know either like a a wallet that you generated on the fly within lily um or pull up a file and and import that file and it would do it would do the work um because yeah there's definitely i'm i'm it's a nice user experience to plug them in and connect them that way but um you know from like a security perspective you know you want to have like an air gap kind of thing um that's why i tried to test it with the treasure instead of the cold cards because i didn't want to plug in my cold cards yeah and actually so another interesting quote-unquote bug is if you plug in a i'm pretty sure if you plug in another type of hardware wallet like a keep key or like a ledger um it'll probably come up as a trezor because there's just like there's an if-else statement

in there that's like if it's not cold card trezor so um that's why it's got the beta beta you know logo on it so i love it no there's i mean again from ux has been a hot topic on bitcoin twitter this week a bunch of people fucking fighting about that uh but i uh yeah no i'm impressed with the ux and again if if people are running safe computers which you can never assume uh you can probably assume that not every computer is going to be uh infected with malicious malware i mean this seems like a good onboarding process the multi-sig and then And the way you describe it, too, and the thread that you announced when you announced Lily, like, eventually, like, if this works and gets out of beta, you can just set up the multisig and plug the XPUB in the BTC pay server. You can plug it into exchanges that start rolling out non-custodial offerings like River and Swan and Unchained, actually, as well.

and then you can import the HD wallets into software like BlueWallet. Would that be a watch-only type scenario? So you can do... So the way I have it set up right now is you can create, like, a HD wallet within Lily and then you can export it to BlueHub, or not BlueHub, BlueWallet,

using, like, a QR code. But you could... I know they have, like, watch-only capability. I have to look into the docs a little bit more because you could create like a watch only for like the um multi-sig I would assume um and that'd be nice because then you can like watch and make sure none of that money is moving um but that was the other thing I was thinking about too like my um with some of these other wallets is like you can only load like one wallet at a time and for me like what's really cool about bitcoin is like you can just create these

you can create a new wallet in like a second you can create hundreds of them and it doesn't cost anything um so it's nice to like be able to to create new wallets and kind of have i'm like an organization freak so like you have like these different accounts for different purposes so if you're like saving up for like a new car or maybe like you you trade bitcoin like you have like a trading account um you you can you can basically like organize your money a little bit better um and and and kind of replicate like a more like traditional banking experience like when i signed to chase uh you know my checking account i have a savings account i have like my credit card account um i think that's an experience that people are very very used to and so if we could replicate

that with bitcoin um i think people again would just be really comfortable uh with that yeah i think that's one thing that ui is much needed i think just having a bunch of utx's spread across different wallets and trying to remember uh what each one is for and where where the utx's came from yeah it's a problem that needs to be solved and i mean i think it is being solved and um but yeah i'm very much looking forward to that experience where you can have clear uh delineation between different accounts and sources of utxos yeah and again from like a risk perspective too like you're distributing your risk then too so if your key gets compromised for your dollar cost averaging on river um you know you're only out the amount of money that's in that

account uh if you have distributed like your your btc pay money and your river gca money is separated and so if you lose one of those keys like you're only out that money um and then too like you know with with btc pay server let's say like you you every two weeks you you create you get your money in um and then you have like you know let's say like 15 or 20 utxos you can then consolidate those put them into your vault which is great because actually like cold card i think you can only do like 20 UTXOs or else it kind of starts to break so you do have to like consolidate your UTXOs um within cold card um what do you mean before it jumps forward or yeah um yeah there's um it's in the documentation but basically like because there's only so much memory I think

it's I think this is the case there's only so much memory I can only process like 20 UTXOs at a time so if you if you're only sending in like you know 0.0001 bitcoin each utxo um your cold card actually like won't be able to process that i'm pretty sure oh no i think it's i think it when it comes time to spending if you combine a certain number of utxos together yeah that's what i mean yeah so if you go to spend um you can only do like 10 like 20 or so utxos so so eventually like you will want to and really will i'll this is on my list of things to do too is we we uh it looks up you know the utxos and it displays them and if you do kind of start hitting that that maximum uh kind of like threshold um i want to have like a message that's like hey you need to like

consolidate you need to like send a transaction and consolidate these um which when we get like coin swap will be sweet because then we can like again you can use these utxos and uh uh kind of shield um like the history on that so yeah fascinating so what uh what's the the plan for lily are you just sort of going with the flow right now do you want to you're said you're currently uh on the sidelines uh in this job market like is this an opportunity for you to try to make this like a full-fledged product product and project if you will yeah um yeah So I've been thinking about that a lot since releasing it. Initially, I was just like, throw it out on Twitter, see what happens.

You know, if nobody likes it and says it's garbage, then okay. If they do like it, then maybe do something else with it. And so, like I said, I did get a really good response from people. So, yeah, I'm kind of in the process right now of just reaching out to some folks and figuring out, yeah, is there a path that i can um basically continue working on it um either full-time or like a like a three-fourths capacity or something and um and yeah continue i mean there's a ton of stuff that i want to put into it so if we can continue building on it that'd be awesome um obviously talking with like square um and what they're doing with the crypto stuff and uh i know like

kraken i think is like giving out grants as well so um i gotta do a little bit more research on it But yeah, I mean, that's, I think it's so far with the response from the community, I think it's worth, uh, continuing to build on. Um, and I've got like a laundry list of stuff that I would like to do with it. So what's, uh, what's on that laundry list that we haven't spoke about yet? Well, yeah, so obviously, like the Trezor and lighter support. So right now, like there's some performance issues on it. The way I just have it written is a little bit could definitely be optimized for speed. um adding so right now it relies on block streams uh basically relies on block stream so um being like full node capability uh which would be sweet um and then once you get full node then you can do start doing stuff with like lightning which would be awesome so like the same way you make an hd wallet um you could create like a new lightning wallet um and actually you know uh open up channels from the hardware wallet and have the channels closed to the hardware wallet and so

have like this hot wallet of of of lightning going which would be really nice again for um using bitcoin and more of like a traditional spending financial situation um what else oh a big one is uh so like right now um with the multi-sig set up it's right now it actually does not make a whole lot of sense um you're like not using the full capabilities of of multi-sig because all your devices have to be within reach of the computer so you have like you know what's the use of multi-sig i guess except if like one of the devices dies but you ideally would like to have like a distributed um you know key setup with multi-sig and so being able to export uh being able to sign a transaction take that psbt that's been signed like encrypt it

with pgp or something send it somewhere else and then have like another computer you know distributed somewhere else be able to pull that down and then you can sign it again like that's like how multisig should be should be used um so like so basically being able to like paste in psbts um and sign would be really nice um yeah so stuff like that i have a couple others and then too uh one more thing is like eventually well a coin selection so right now like it's just an automatic algorithm that does coin selection uh fee um being able to set a fee i just use like you know whatever's going to do the next block um and then also like all this stuff that's coming out with a coin swap i just find to be like extremely fascinating um and so i would definitely

like to add support for that once that's fleshed out and and ready how do you see that right being implemented in Deloitte, would you create markets for it or? Yeah, I mean, once they start, well, that's the interesting thing. So, it's kind of, yeah, you need to have a wallet that's able to do that. And then, yeah, I just read the paper last week or the mailing list posting last week. Yeah, we need to build out these liquidity markets for that. But yeah, I mean, once that happens, then you just tie it into the wallet yeah you can kind of do these these markets for for privacy um yeah let's walk me through a little bit more how that would work like creating those markets like would lily just be able to connect

you to like a liquidity pool of other people looking to coin pool or would people have to download lily um would there be like a lily coin pool marketplace that's sort of well so that would so that would be so that's like two questions there so um somebody definitely needs to make and um what's his chris um belcher belcher oh sure yeah so like his paper kind of goes in or his posting on the mailing list goes in and says you know basically you make like an http server that like you can query and then it'll give you back kind of like some information and you can like build a uh you connect market makers and market takers and then you can like build these transactions um so that would be like a totally different product i don't i don't i don't know

like what would go on with that um but you could then tie it into lily so like lily would then you could say like i want to have like a privacy transaction um i'm willing to spend a little bit more money for it um and it would then ping one of those servers and get that information back construct the transaction and then you'd have like this coin swapped transaction uh so it's like an in-wallet api call on us to the to the coin pool protocol exactly yeah and what's interesting about that it makes me think of so i used to work um the last the company i worked at before building lily we did a we had a submarine swap product very similar to lightning loop and we were like market makers on that product so like we put up um our own bitcoin and you could

then uh basically paste in a lightning transaction uh we would send you back like an address and an amount of money to spend or to send to that address you would do that we would monitor the blockchain and then we would like pay that lightning invoice so it'd be a very similar system to that where um basically you say i want to send this money to this address um send this amount of bitcoin to this address you'd send that up to a server the server would then respond back to you with like a quote unquote price to do that and then in the information if you wanted to do that if you wanted to accept that price to send coins there and uh and then it would do that kind of like in the background with coin swap it's going to be set up pretty

much exactly the same as join market except he's trying to remove the irc server that is the the coordination right now with join market but it's the same exact idea where you have like market makers and market takers um so on the taker side you can jump into that pool like pretty much on demand uh and you just have lily on the side just generating the keys in this situation is my exact is how i would how i would view it yeah i think again i probably have to look at the paper again but i was reading it last week and and that's basically how it would work is and which is a great user experience because yeah you don't have to go into an irc channel like you just basically within the wallet it's like one click um or maybe two clicks to accept

and um it would just ping the server that i think in the paper he says like you could just run it on like a raspberry pi so like for more highly technical bitcoin users that maybe have like you know more than 6.15 bitcoin you um you put you know you basically run this thing on like a raspberry pie um and people then can like query um your stuff and uh you can then basically participate in these liquidity markets and and make some more bitcoin uh as a result of that which i think is is very cool um being able to use your bitcoin that is just laying there dormant and um making money off of it by providing liquidity in these markets for for coin swap and then you can also do it for like lightning um for these like submarine swaps to go to go back to the laundry

list uh the simpler side of the laundry list since coin swap is still in development uh right now can we i like i like i said i have not tested this with cold card because i don't have any cold cards around that i'm willing to plug into my computer uh i tried to test it with trezor and it didn't work uh the does it verify on device yet the receive addresses um so that was like the thing that came up a few weeks ago like the segway bug no i want i want to be able to verify my receive addresses on the device because otherwise you're trusting lily to show you the correct receive address and in that situation malware could basically show an attacker's address or if lily's compromised when you download it it could just show you an attacker's address so then

you end up instead of sending it to your multisig vault you're sending it to the attacker so if you verify it on the device then the actual device needs to be compromised right yeah so i have to um i have to look into that um because yeah i i yeah i have to look into that i'm not sure The one thing I will say is that, again, going back to distributing risk, is if you're unsure or a little bit hesitant about it, you can always export the vault's caravan file and then import it into caravan and see if that's lining up, if it's giving you the same address. But I don't know if that's like a sufficient. Ideally on a different computer. But yeah, you could do that. uh and then even simpler laundry list item is there a reason why uh a wallet name needs to be

seven characters oh um not really i just think it looks i think it looks better if it has seven i like it took me about 15 minutes to troubleshoot the seven characters because it doesn't give you a warning so i just i wanted i wanted my wallet to be called test you know and i just um yeah and then i did test test and it worked and i figured it out that's what happened gotcha yeah um yeah i definitely need to get some better um error messages on that that's like the simplest level of the laundry list though yeah i got some uh some ux feedback here on the podcast yeah well there's also i know there's a pull request open right now uh i don't I apparently don't make it very clear that the config files download to the

downloads folder. So there's a PR that somebody opened up that adds like another page that's like, Hey, your config files and your downloads check that because Bitcoin rabbi actually said that too. He's like, where's my config file?

And somebody else obviously had that same issue and opened up a PR. So that usually goes where in like the application in the folder under application, right? No, just like your downloads folder. which is fine it just should tell you that's all you just gotta yeah you just gotta tell them yeah it's encrypted and put in your downloads folder so then when you load up lily lily stateless so

you when you load up lily every time you have to open the the most recent config file and then you have to put in your encryption password but when you go to the open thing you're not exactly sure the first time you use it where the file is located yeah exactly so that needs to be made a little bit more explicit um eventually and i got some pushback on this and actually i'd be kind of curious to hear your thoughts on this matt is um like i i thought about like adding some sort of like cloud support for the files so instead of downloading to the downloads folder it just like downloads to like icloud or or google drive um i think that that from like a ux perspective is a little bit nice because then you don't have to like worry about keeping track of

those files and like if your computer dies or whatever but i know then you're like kind of trusting you know google and if you do that you should choose the encryption password for the user because they're not gonna because the only thing standing between their wallet getting compromised i guess if it's multi-sig vault it doesn't matter as much because you still need the devices but if it's for the hd wallet the only thing standing in between uh someone compromising their wallet um if they get access to the cloud drive and and it could be google or apple right like we got to include them in the threat model is the encryption password and people suck at making encryption passwords i mean my my test encryption password was bitcoin which is probably

horrible password so if you like generate i like what cold card does for their encrypted backups which aren't even stored to the cloud is they generate a 12 word seed phrase that is your password gotcha yeah so i'll have to look at like what yeah what they do and um yeah that's what about that that's what casa does casa saves on their single sig product mobile wallet they save to the cloud for convenience but they don't let you choose the encryption password they do it do okay i have to look into how do they choose what that password is you know look it's a closed source app so like don't use it as like a complete uh rubric for what you should do but my understanding is is you have a casa email and password and then they're

encrypting it and keeping that secret and then and then you use your email and password to basically access their secret that they keep hidden i wouldn't do it that way what i would do is i would basically give them a word phrase just like you do when you generate the single the single key hd wallet give them a word phrase say this is your password it's saved to the cloud you need this word phrase to to get in even if it's just like a like a six word phrase randomly generated it's going to be better than whatever password they do and you can give them like an advanced toggle you know advanced to create your own password with a little warning tool tip or something yeah that's how i would do it seems like it seems like so many steps so many steps

to encrypt all this stuff yeah and that's you know that's like the fun part about this is like figuring out you know sitting down and figuring out okay how do this is how it works how do we make this easier how do you make it so like my mom or my brother could could figure it out and not have to keep track of you know a bajillion things um but yeah one thing i wanted to touch on you said previously you were working on something similar to a submarine swap in which you guys were creating markets and liquidity what was that experience like and uh like what's it like market making for for these types of products um i mean so we i mean you basically just put up You put up Bitcoin.

So we were doing market making because we – it's like a chicken and the egg problem. It's like, okay, we have this submarine swap service. Do we – you need people to use it, to like use it to – what am I trying to say here? you need people making you know having putting up bitcoin to put onto lightning um in order for people to want to refill it on lightning um so we basically we made the product we were like we'll be the initial market makers on that and um and yeah so you kind of just have like a hot wallet and it pings a server and then we give a response back i don't think we were making much money on it but um eventually then you would open it up and allow other people to kind of like tie into

the same server give like a rate of like this is how much um how much uh what is the word how much like the gap between prices um the spread yeah spread how much spread you're going to give and that you can kind of like compete on that um that level yeah so i was curious to see if it's profitable i'm just thinking of like incentives to to build these privacy markets in the future yeah um i don't know how profitable they are to be honest i mean it's it's it's somewhat profitable i don't think you're gonna be like making a whole bunch of money but one nice thing though is again what excited me about it was like you i if you have just bitcoin that is just sitting there um and you don't have to use all your bitcoin but maybe you put up like half a

bitcoin or like one bitcoin and um you can make some additional sats by just running a program on your computer um and you're being you're making money you're making additional sets that um you know are kyc uh free and you're uh you know providing liquidity to these networks which is good for lightning um because also like i mean eventually like if i added lightning support for lily what would be the ideal user experience is like you open up a channel with some routing node for let's say uh 0.25 bitcoin um and then once you like exhaust that channel once you spend that 2.5 bitcoin um to refill it you would just use a submarine swap so you would just say i need to send uh additional 0.2 bitcoin here and uh we would just give you an address which would be from

uh that that liquidity market and then you just send it to the address and then we would push the push the back to you which is great because then you save on fees you're that lightning node you know you're not closing and opening channels and for the user that's great because it's like you literally feel like all you're doing is just

throwing more money into that account so there's really you don't even know that there's any sort of swapping going on you're just like you from a user perspective you're just like throwing more bitcoin into there please put your phone on airplane mode sorry about that i'm kidding i'm messing with you i'm uh i'm notoriously bad on that on rhr yeah marty's like a professional podcaster at this

point and it happens to him all the fucking time so don't don't feel too bad um no but i love i love your focus on ux and and lily seems like a base a base product for for a vision that you want to see brought to fruition like so what are your long-term views for bitcoin as a network and uh like what like what possibilities do you think exist for any anywhere from multi-sig to to what you can do on lightning yeah well if that makes you think of two things number one uh yeah so lily for me uh not to get like i'm a philosophy major so not to get super heady but like you know bitcoin get heady you start with um you know you start with like your seed phrase and so you plant your seeds and then a flower grows and so that's like what lily is is it's the flower that unfolds

and it blooms and um and it's also a great jumping off point for other things in bitcoin so you you know you start off on coinbase or no you don't you start on river and you start second stats on there and then eventually you want to get into like the self-custody game and so then you you download lily and then you say i want to do lightning and then you start doing that and you're like i want to run a full node and so that's like kind of like you're jumping off point for for bitcoin um for long term though i mean i've been thinking about this a lot recently too um i just and i've been talking to some people about it too is like um i i just think that right now is it's just like a time game i mean going back to hayek we're just building

a competing currency um you know we're building a currency to compete with the dollar and um i i'm extremely optimistic um i don't think it's like i don't think i don't know if i subscribe to like hyper bitcoinization per se i think it will be like a long process but you look at like what pierre says and like bitcoin is like the best savings technology that has ever existed um and i think more people over time will just kind of wake up to that and uh start putting you know small amounts of money into it and uh you know one percent of their wealth two percent of their wealth start dsaing into it and uh i just think over time um you know we will have that stats standard and um if you look at it it's like we're competing against the dollar and the dollar

is like what an opponent to uh compete against so bad um so i think we have i'm pretty optimistic david versus goliath so you think it's a little the timeline's a little bit more drawn out than some some might think which is probably where i stand as well i think it's going to take a lot longer than people expect yeah i mean i mean it's hard i mean it's like the dollars like i mean it's the world reserve currency it's been there forever people get paid in it um i think it will be like a slow and gradual process where people um you know maybe you start selling like uh you open up a ptc pay server store and like you want to accept bitcoin just because you want to have it on the side um and yeah i just i think i don't know i would like it to be a fast

process although i do think there's like some societal implications to that um that are not good if like you have a currency collapse um so you know it'd be nice if it was like a gradual process so it would be it would be um no nick carter tweeted that out like hey i don't want doomsday scenario but i sure as hell want to be prepared for it if it does come exactly yeah i think that that's i think that's a good mindset to be in i i i'm not a big fan of like championing like the dollar collapsing like that'd be terrible all my parents my parents retirement is in the dollar like that would suck that would suck so um i think the slow gradual process is is good and i think that like you know younger people um are definitely more open to to these

technologies but i think also too like as bitcoiners it's our responsibility to to create those tools and create the experience and create the technology that can compete with the dollar um and is better and obviously better and easy to use so that's that's kind of like where my my head to that too with lily is like let's build if you want it to happen build it i think you got a good head on your shoulders if not me then who that's uh that's what you have to apply to bitcoin it's crazy right like hey you some random dude can just decide hey i'm gonna build this software and hopefully it makes bitcoin stronger against the dollar and more useful and provides utility to bitcoiners yeah it's i mean it's it's sweet um you know a guy i used to work with i never

thought about it this way but it's like bitcoin is really he was into it because like bitcoin is like programmable money i think um that gets a little bit drawn under the rug um but it's it's really i mean it's i think it's just fascinating that like yeah on your computer on my computer that i got because they didn't pay me money at my old job uh i can create this tool that um the people interact with and there's like real value behind it and there's no permission i do not have to apply for a bank account i do not have to ask anybody any permission um and you can like build these tools that that manage money it's awesome that's uh now we're talking about tools that manage money one thing that would be cool another uh product wish list is something like

btc pays transmuter where like if you have a certain amount of funds and a hot wallet on lightning or something that you can automatically sweep them back to the multisig like just think of those functionalities down the line like hit threshold x move to wallet x or wallet y

you gotta use different variables there yeah I think I saw something on twitter the other day somebody used the term the term like lazy holdler and it was like I think that that is another kind of area that we should look at too is you like just automate and it really does this a

little bit with the xpubs but you can automate just like your bitcoin savings plan and uh you can like dca from the river and you just like set it and forget it um i think that that would be and going back to the threshold stuff like the same thing you just threshold automate that once you hit point whatever bitcoin sweep it into into the vault yeah yeah that's one thing i actually need to set up our btc pay transmuter to start doing that more um so i think uh i mean it seems like everything's getting more robust like those functionalities that's why i want to bring you on it's so promising to see you sort of building uh this product out of nowhere presumably like i added um you popped on my radar when you when you added the cold card functionality

um at the first fork of caravan and it's just and that's actually disclaimer on chains a fucking sponsor of this podcast but they're a fucking sponsor it's um it's uh no it's encouraging to see that people are working with their open source libraries to build this stuff out and um your evidence that open sourcing this stuff will lead to different options which is which is what we want in the overall is optionality right totally again going back to the risk profile or the risk uh distribute distribution it's it's great that's what you want and i'm starting to see what they do i'm starting to see what unchained does um i think that the like multi they're building a company and a product i think that is um is what bitcoin

needs and um they're doing it in like this very bitcoin way um all open source um you're in control of your keys with the two or three and like the service that they're gonna i think they offer now or like they're going to offer is like you know they hold the one key that you sign with i think people really like that i think people really i think bitcoin needs that because at the end of the day like you want a phone number you want somebody on the other end of the line that you can call and be like hey uh is all my money gone or like is my stuff secure you know um so that's that's good too i think that like um um we're starting to see that kind of people move more into like this service aspect of bitcoin that's a little more customer friendly um while

still maintaining though the core values of bitcoin and the cypher cypherpunk you know self-sovereign um nature that that's there yeah there's a there's a happy medium to be met and actually i speaking you've mentioned river a couple times i i really like to tweet they sent out this morning which actually a high quote uh liberty not only means that the individual is both the opportunity and the burden of choice it also means that he must bear the consequences liberty and responsibility are inseparable yeah um so sort of driving home that idea of extreme ownership with bitcoin but like you're describing services can make it a little bit easier yeah exactly um yeah i love that high quote it's like you're you're free to do whatever you want but

you're not free from responsibility um yeah well that's crazy today's day and age too it seems It's fascinating being so into Bitcoin and seeing the world evolve outside of Bitcoin, particularly here in the United States right now, where it seems like just culturally nobody wants self-responsibility. And this plays itself out like in the media and at the corporate level, right? Like nobody's an individual at the corporate level anymore. It's like, hey, you take the line of the week and you tweet about it. You make sure you're aligned. You don't take any ownership. You just sort of parrot what everybody else is saying.

yeah we we're definitely i've felt this since the coronavirus thing is like suffering from a lack of responsibility and lack of leadership um and people taking responsibility you know i think and that's like great like you want to take more responsibility i think because that like empowers you um you know you take responsibility for yourself and like you bear the you know i think like jordan peterson talks about like you bear the the cross or like the torch of like you know your dad dies and like are you gonna sit there and you're gonna cry about it and be weak or are you gonna like take responsibility and and you know stretch on um i think we need we need more of that we definitely do what uh what has pissed you off the most about the coronavirus debacle

what was that but what has pissed you off the most about this uh this quarantine um honestly i've gotten like i've got a very i've got a great deal with this quarantine uh i'm just sitting here riding bikes and and building bitcoin stuff um but i mean my thing is like it i i don't watch the news that much um because i it just seems apparent from this coronavirus thing that like nobody really knows what they're talking about um it's like one day one you know One day the masks are not necessary. The next day they are necessary. You know, this many people are going to die.

We're going to open up restaurants. Like, it just doesn't seem like there's a cohesive, like, nobody knows what's going on. We're just all kind of taking our own guesses. And I'm a little bit skeptical or, like, a little bit, it seems to me like nobody knows what's going on. And so, like, we just, like, as individuals, we should probably just take our own, like, responsibility. It's bad, I think, to make decisions at, like, a macro level if nobody knows what's happening. Just to circle back. Yeah, you have to, like, distribute the risk by allowing individuals to make their own decisions.

Like, I feel really bad for, like, small business owners that are, like, forced to, like, not open up their restaurant. um not that like i think that people should be going to restaurants but it's like the the mechanism of um of like let it it it would be terrible for a restaurant to go under because the government says that they cannot open up the restaurant i would rather have the restaurant go under because nobody shows up to their restaurant um because like they don't want to get coronavirus um just to circle back what i miss the most is live music me me too me as well i fortunately i went to a show like february 25th or something got it in right right before everything went to shit very grateful for that yeah i did uh no but oh go ahead go ahead

No, I was going to say along the lines of let individuals decide whether or not they want to take the risk. I think that's the big thing, especially now. I sent out a tweet the other day that got a lot of comments about everybody's freaking out about all the cases spiking like crazy right now. But if you look at the total deaths, the seven-day average is as low as it was on March 21st, I believe I just checked. And, uh, we have like more than double the amount of cases this week than at that point.

So it's just this weird, again, like you said, nobody knows exactly what's going on and the burden should be on individuals to weigh the, the risk and reward of if they want to interact with the economy. Um, I know where I am, like the outdoor bars are open and people are being respectful, at least in some bars, some bars, they aren't, um, at the ones that I've been to, uh, keeping it distant. instance um it's crazy it's like we're not gonna have fourth of july fireworks here this uh this year which which makes no sense to me considering it's outside and the fireworks are on a barge and everybody would be on the beach but yeah that's my rant yeah no it's um it's just it's weird um just really weird i'm going back to matt's comment like i'm grateful uh uh february what was it february into like march 1st i was in new york uh my favorite band was playing at the beacon theater and uh they did they did a five night run and uh i splurged and was like fuck it i'm gonna do all

five nights and that was the last that was the last concert that i went to before all this went down so i'm very happy that i i made that decision thanks for hitting us up while you're in town i there was there was something going on actually i saw somebody there was a bit devs thing going on like on the thursday but like my flight came in and i just like had to go immediately to the beacon so i would have believe me i would have next time how were how were the how was the how was that run was a good five show run oh it was great um a five night run is an interesting thing because i had the same tickets all five nights so i was in the same seat and there was a lot of other folks that did five nights so by the end of day five by the end of the show of day

five like i had known like everybody around me like knew everybody's name like we knew like where everybody was from um it was great um and it's my favorite band it's band uh widespread panic they're from like georgia yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so i saw you i saw on your website that you try to have them run for president or something like that oh yeah that was um yeah in 2016 after rand paul dropped out of the race i made this like facebook post and was like i this was when i was very into lies i've been into them since like 2015 and um i was like made this fictitious like kind of like i was bored in the library at school and was like made this thing it's like long drawn out post about like we need i'm putting my support behind widespread panic and um it got a lot of

like a lot of my friends started liking it and then i made like some bumper stickers and then um ended up like sold a bunch of those online and then was like oh i sold a bunch of bumper stickers online like i should make t-shirts turns out t-shirts are a lot harder to sell than bumper stickers 15 15 t-shirts is a higher bar than two dollar bumper stickers so um i remember i called my so so i made this website with like you know this fictitious presidential campaign just like replicating like you know an actual candidate but like with the band and put all these like band references in it um and then ordered these t-shirts and i remember i like called my mom and i was like mom i think i made a huge mistake i ordered way i ordered way too many

t-shirts um and so then i had to hustle then i went to i went to actually 15 shows that year and uh and hustled these these t-shirts and ended up uh getting it getting them all sold you're you're competing with the official merch table that's blasphemous well these the the jam band stuff they uh they're fine with it you know like the grateful dead kind of vibe they you you can you can set up the thing in the back of your car and sell stuff so that's pretty true beacon theater is a good theater to do a five show run at too yeah please yeah it's beautiful um i'm also like uh like i think a lot of the corners into like just like classical architecture um i've noticed that yeah that's kind of been like a new theme like in the last year or two and uh yeah so

the beacon is just like it's gorgeous it's like the most beautiful thing it is i've seen a few shows i've seen jerry seinfeld there was a funny show there i saw sturgill simpson at the beacon too that's a good show at the beacon yeah um and then uh king's theater in brooklyn matt have you been there it is so fucking badass do you know that was originally a movie theater yeah it was built in like 1908 wasn't it or something fucking cool man i love that place we have some of the best venues so does actually so does colorado colorado has some dope ass venues we've got the best rocks yeah we got the good outdoor venues yeah so i would love to go to red rocks one day yeah not to not to keep plugging widespread but they actually have the record for most

sold out shows at red rocks i think uh this summer would have been like 61 i think you should get them to give you a grant for lily well i'm sure i'm sure they're hurting right now they're not playing any shows so i mean they're not hurting they're fine actually they're they're fine but freaks open spotify you can keep it on silent just keep replaying their songs so they get like one every time you play it there's actually there's a great you should uh there's a song called little lily we should check that out great song oh little lily yeah i wish we could play it right now on the podcast i'm not technically competent enough to throw in that music nor know whether or not we'll

get dmca'd we would right like isn't that are we allowed to just play random songs on air well i hear them on other podcasts every once in a while i'm like how do they do that i need to check to buy a license fee i don't know i think you have to pay for it yeah a dcma is always good publicity though we can say the man's trying to take us down yeah i'm hoping i'm hoping hbo sends us a cease and desist for the name of the podcast i've been waiting on that that's when we know we officially make it marty says we won't officially rebrand to tftc tftc until until we get a tales from the crypt uh takedown notice it's that's funny because we uh uh when i was in god was it the middle school early high school we used to watch uh tales from the crypt and my

buddy's house great show yeah i really hope we don't get in too much trouble for that if there is any trouble to be had i don't know maybe i should not be talking about this on air if you're listening marty's the one you go after no lewis roberts he thought of the name he launched a podcast um kevin it's been a pleasure multi-sig wallets music what else is going on in that mind anything else on uh the top of your mind that you want to talk about before we wrap up here um uh i don't know not really bitcoin related is there anything um happening on lightning or at the protocol level that you're excited for looking forward to yeah i mean uh i'm looking forward to i'm really excited about um so lightning obviously layer two

um really stoked about like the um uh dlc discrete log contract stuff um actually so nadav also lives in boulder so he we i see him every once in a while at the the bitcoin meetups here um and uh so he's doing that dude is smart yeah yeah he's doing i think that that stuff is going to be really interesting um i actually thought about like um and i actually i should ask him about it but like so the dlc stuff lets you like basically make bets on like stuff like let's say price of bitcoin um so i'm wondering if you could use that as a mechanism to like create like a stable coin with bitcoin um basically because like that's like how like prices work for like corn and like other commodities that you trade options for it's like the the purpose of

that is to stabilize price so like the you offload as a farmer you like offload risk um to you know some suit and uh that way you don't have to worry about like the price of corn fluctuates so i'm wondering like if that's like what his like what something will come out with that with like basically you have like a bitcoin that's like it's always like you know ten thousand dollars sats are my stable coin and to me corn means bitcoin so i'm very confused i think you could set something like that up on the options exchanges like bitmex oh yeah maybe yeah maybe you can i'm not super i'm not super familiar with with trading or bitmex but um i think yeah if you just had a correct proportion of a short and a long if you just do a one-to-one

short it's just stable coin yeah yeah oh yeah that's true you have to manage i think you have a third party risk yeah is there is there a third party risk with that yeah bitmex yeah so can you do so that's i guess it was my question is like could you do that natively um on bitcoin with dlcs so you just created you'd be both parties in the dlc well you'd i got floated to somebody else i guess i don't know yeah these are things i think about that i don't fully understand i think no matter what you have third party risk okay the dlc third party risk is with the oracle but you have you have ways in which you could punish the oracle i believe and recoup some funds and the oracle might not know which which contract oracle doesn't know

who it's feeding information to either so yeah yeah the stuff that they're doing there at sure bits i think is also just fascinating so i hope that yeah lightning adoption on on exchanges would be sweet um yeah yeah shout out to the team at sure but it's very uh underrated team out there i love the stuff that they're working on and they're good drinkers which i respect i can drink i can drink um kevin it's been a pleasure man yeah happy to get to know you sorry uh i don't have a shirt on it's great i've been this is i've been enjoying the view at least that makes one of us i'm jealous i'm going up to to michigan uh find out to michigan to hang out at my buddy's lake

house this weekend so you're uh i'll be i'll be you and tomorrow hopefully wakeboarding just boating just yeah boating pooling hanging uh hanging with the high school buddies wear a master tsa this is the one time you get away with it it's worth it yeah i'm i'm like yeah i'm kind of i'm not paranoid about getting it but uh definitely gonna be using precautions for sure I mean, regardless of what you think about Corona, it's important to flex on the TSA with a mask while you walk through. Exactly. My least favorite government organization, the TSA. Kevin, where can we find out more about you?

Where can we help you with Lily? Yeah. Where can we find out more about the project in general, too? Totally, yeah. So I use Twitter a lot. so um i did make a lily twitter account it's just at lily wallet um uh but you should just follow me on twitter i tweet more stuff so um i just took the the twitter the lily twitter just so nobody else would um so yeah just at uh kbc so k-a-y-b-e-s-e-e um on twitter um i got my website

on there, kevinmulchrone.com, and then Lily's website is just lily.kevinmulchrone.com. And yeah, there's, you can go on there, you can get the, I guess like a little splash page with like some of the features of the wallet and some screenshots, and then like the download links are there. There's a pull request out right now for Linux support. So we're going to get Linux and I'm going to get Windows on with this next release. So that'll be great, get more people using it um shout out to uh to those pull requests and um uh yeah awesome dude again it's been a pleasure thank you for doing the work that you do it's very interesting stuff i think uh you've got a good mindset to approaching these products and in a long-term view which we appreciate here at

tftc uh i hope you enjoy your trip to michigan thanks yeah it's it's a pleasure making this stuff this community is awesome i mean everybody is super supportive so it's all um yeah well thank you for your time matt you got anything bitcoin bitcoin bitcoin oh can i do the can i do the cacao yeah yeah i'll do it i'll do peace and love and then you can go alright ready peace and love it's okay

that was okay I need to work on it you're a little you're a little too timid you can't be timid but you just go I'm just gonna get into it it's a very

very visceral face thing alright that's all we got this week freaks Thank you.