TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #257: Infusing bitcoin into gaming, the Lightning Network, and Bitcoin 2021 with Desiree Dickerson, Christian Moss, and Michael Tidwell

Episode Date: May 28, 2021

Join Marty as he sits down with Desiree Dickerson of Lightning Labs and Mint Gox + Christian Moss and Michael Tidwell of ZEBEEDEE to discuss: - Update of the CSGO ZEBEEDEE Infuse integration - How users have tried to stack by gaming the system - Moderating sat farming - New slang around stacking sats - How the Lightning Network technical infrastructure is looking - New games on the horizon - Kids in South America earning a living via CSGO infused with sats - The eSports Stage at Bitcoin 2021 - 100,000,000 sats on the line! - much more Shoutout to this week's sponsors. Cash App. Start #stackingsats today. Use the promo code: "stackingsats" to receive $10 and contribute $10 to OWLS Lacrosse when you download the app. Lend at Hodl Hodl is a new non-custodial bitcoin backed lending platform, that allows peer to peer lending and borrowing between users, globally, anonymously & on your own terms. Create you offers & set your own terms on lend.hodlhodl.com Compass Mining. Compass wants to democratize bitcoins hashrate and give everyone the ability to strengthen the network while mining bitcoin profitably. Thanks to Compass, it’s never been easier to mine bitcoin. Check them out at compassmining.io Braiins. Braiins are leaders in the mining industry; running Slush Pool, creating firmware to make miners more profitable (Braiins OS+), and building out Stratum V2 to help further decentralize mining and make Bitcoin more robust. Check out their mining profitability calculator.

What is up, freaks? It's your boy, Marty Bent, here to introduce this rip of Tales from the Crypt. Sat back down with the Zebedee and Mint Gox teams. Desiree Dickerson from Lightning Labs slash Mint Gox and Mint Gox, not slash. Christian Moss from Zebedee and Michael Tidwell from Zebedee as well. First time having Michael on the podcast. great conversation about how the lightning network infused product that zebedee has built is working with their csgo servers they've amassed a a pretty large community of gamers playing csgo for sats pretty insane thousands over 10 000 people playing now

We talk about the ways in which the players are farming for sats, the incentive structures built in the game, how they're sort of iterating on the product as they learn about user tendencies, as they try to stack as many sats as possible, the slang around it, the technical infrastructure necessary to make this all work. And then we talk about what's going to be going down at Bitcoin 2021. Biggest Bitcoin-enabled esports event ever. So if you freaks are in Miami, make sure you stop by the esports arena that's going to be at the conference and check it out. Everything seems pretty dope. This was brought to you by our good friends at Cash App. Cash App is how we stack, send sets, receive sets, sell sets.

If you so please. We're saying sets. Sets, sets. sats sats sats sats sats sats sats sats sats sats sats sats sats because we're trying to fix the units by the unit bias that unix bias i wish there was a unix bias at least for our critical infrastructure seem to have a microsoft bias but we're fixing the unit bias there's 100 million sats in one bitcoin you don't have to buy a whole bitcoin you don't have to buy a fraction of bitcoin you can stack whole sats as little as

one dollar on the cash app you can dca in the satsing by daily weekly bi-weekly you can set it and forget it that way you can get your paychecks direct deposited into the app they're offering account numbers of rallying numbers can become your bank account they've got their beautiful boost card great conversation starter if you put a little bitcoin sign on that maybe not so good obsec wise so weigh that trade off for yourself personally can you protect yourself they've got their boost program already mentioned so if you haven't downloaded the cash app yet make sure you do so using the code stacking sats that's s-t-a-c-k-i-n-g-s-a-t-s you're gonna get ten dollars and ten dollars gonna go to our good friends at owls lacrosse that dirty

dirtbag owl we totally took something matt and i said on rabbit hole recap out of context and spreading rumors on twitter he's a dirty dirty individual these ten dollars are gonna go to owls lacrosse owls lacrosse This rip was also brought to you by our good friends at HODL. HODL is here to give you freaks a lending platform. Lend at HODL. HODL is a new non-custodial Bitcoin-packed lending platform that allows peer-to-peer lending and borrowing

between users globally, anonymously, and on your own terms. No KYC, no AML. you have part custody of the escrow account when you set it up and it's available to us clients the way it works is you put your bitcoin as collateral in a multi-sig escrow you hold one key your counterparty holds one key hodl hodl holds the third key the beauty of this is that since you hold a key you have visibility into the wallet in which your sats are being held over the duration of the loan so you can be sure that is not being re-hypothecated being lent out without your knowledge you know that it's locked in that escrow as long as you're paying

your loan out, you're paying your payments back over the duration of that loan, you're going to get your stats back at the end of the day. So you put your Bitcoin as collateral, you get stable coins in return, then you can go spend them how you see fit. And if you're paying back the loan again, you get your Bitcoin back. If you want to lend your stable coins out to Bitcoiners looking for liquidity, you can do so by entering the other side of that order book, and you'll get some interest in return so create your own offers set your own terms on lend.hodlhodl.com again non-custodial no kyc no aml you make the terms with your partner it's pretty beautiful shout out to hodl hodl you got some big news on the horizon too i believe look out for that this rip

is also brought to you by our good friends at compass mining compass mining's looking to take the complexity out of mining for individuals they want more individuals mining and the way they're doing that is they're setting up a platform which you go into compass mining.io c-o-m-p-a-s-s-m-i-n-i-n-g.io you pick a mining model you pay for the miner then you go you pick a hosting facility with competitive electricity cost so you're not plugging in your house paying paying above 10 cents in some places heating up your house loud noises to make your wife your girlfriend your cat your dog angry at you you send it to a hosting facility with competitive electricity prices so you buy the miner you pick the hosting facility compass miner mining

acquires the miner plugs it in at that facility and then they start streaming sats to an account of your choice is a beautiful thing it's a beautiful thing so go check them out at compassmining.io we have a special link in the show notes that helps us out if you use that if you're thinking about using compass mining so if you are check out that link last but not least this episode was brought to you by our good friends at brains brains b-r-a-i-i-n-s double i never forget the double i freaks never forget the double i brains is the team behind slush pool all right slush pool oldest mining pool in the bitcoin space ever heard of it pretty legendary we're not here well we are here to talk about slush pool a little

bit but mainly what we're here to talk about is the brains os plus manager right brains offers firmware brains os plus for miners so for particular models if you have a model that's brains os plus firmware compatible you download the brains os plus firmware on your miner and it helps you stack more sats it's as simple as that and if you're doing that they just released the brains os plus manager new online platform that enables miners to remotely monitor and manage all their ASICs running Brains OS Plus. It's going to help you improve uptime and keep your farms running optimally

without the hassle of needing on-site 24-7 support. We know how annoying on-site 24-7 support can be. It's annoying. The Brains OS Plus manager helps here. It also will be free for all Brains OS Plus miners, and you can connect to an unlimited number of devices, whether you want it to be your phone, your tablet, your laptop. You can always have visibility into what's going on your manager on the go at your desk.

Security and efficiency were top priorities. BrainsOS Plus Manager uses Strata V2 for smaller and less frequent data transfers with all ASIC configuration telemetry data being sent via encrypted connections with protect against eavesdropping a man in the middle attacks. Don't let people jack your hash, freaks. Leveraging Strata V2 to send this data via encrypted connections is very important. don't get your hash rate jacked be responsible get every sat you can out of every hash that you're producing don't let people jack your hash for details on the manager and how to get it set up with your mining operation go to brains bra iins.com slash blog and check out the brains os plus manager launch article again that's brains bra iins.com and then again slash pool is going

to get a major update soon here don't know when uh it hasn't been launched yet obviously but it's going to include ultra flexible payout system customizable mining reward splitting and best of all dark team make sure you're managing that hash rate and your eyes are okay follow at slush underscore pool on twitter to see the announcement when the pool update goes live and enjoy this rip with the zebedee and mint gox team we're building the future freaks people like oh bitcoin's not interoperable with all these other all these other blockchains these cryptocurrencies we don't need a bartering token economy freaks we don't need it bitcoin's becoming interoperable interoperable with the internet stack with video games with voip with podcasting rss feeds that's where the

signal is that's where the interoperable signal is enjoy You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free. When you talk about a Fed just gone nuts, all the central banks going nuts. So it's all acting like safe haven. I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor. I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

if you're not paying attention you probably should be what is up freaks welcome back to tales from the crypt the the zoom this meeting is just being recorded just like literally started happening today it's really throwing me off very excited for this episode sitting back down with the zebedee team and the mink gox team desiree from mink gox and lightning labs christian from zebedee and new guest michael tidwell very excited to have michael on the podcast from zebedee as well what's going on happy to be here thanks for having me on thanks for coming on i was telling the story of uh how we dj seeds became the developer for tfdc.io and our bitcoinization of the the website and the stack

and you were involved we were in fidei drinking beers with dan anderson and dj was there he was like 19 at the time and i believe i was feeding him beers which is illegal so yeah i don't remember that part i i don't remember you giving any underage alcohol or you know being involved in anything like that um but i do remember giving up i think you gave me 50 equity in the whole project and i think i gave that all back over time slowly thank you i need it yeah i wanted you to earn it back though so now that you've you know made it you know you've earned it yeah thank you thank you it's good it's strange going to the states from the uk because we can like drink when you're like 16 in in some places and when you're 18 you can fully drink but then you

go to the states and you're like a kid again but you can buy a gun or something yeah you can't have a beer i remember going to walmart and like you don't sell alcohol in your supermarkets but they had like a hello kitty shotgun which was yeah depends what state you're in depends what state you're in it was florida yeah the american way the american way is buying a gun before you buy your first beer it's the american way well you'd be sober at least i guess that makes sense you can't be drunk but with that being said there's a there's a strong teenage drinking culture in america as well they make it illegal and so the teens i know i did magical sound just happened what was that oh i don't know but i liked it like you said this

this you know magical age of underage drinking and it was like let me see if it was this one no it wasn't that one but enough reminiscing about teenage drinking and feeding teenagers beer what's going on last time we talked you guys were just about to launch the CSGO

server you showed me a demo you guys integrated like the network payments QR codes I'm forgetting the name of that integration off the top of my head like an asshole but lnurl but you guys have like a infuse right infuse yes i'm talking about it yeah um uh and

christian we were talking before we hit record you said you guys went from like a couple users on the server to over 10 000 over a month yeah like adding csgo really basically brought in a bunch of new people from outside of bitcoin so we've got a bunch of csgo gamers coming in and uh they don't know anything about bitcoin they keep calling it stash instead of stats they want to get more stash like you know yeah it's pretty funny you know but yeah you know it's just like it's um it's a kind of thought we had at zebedee when we initially started it's like i've kind of been involved in like bitcoin gaming since like 2013 and even did some blockchain gaming let's say and like nobody wants to play crappy games called block wars or like crypto fighters you

know like some people do but it's not you know i'm sure it's possible to make a good game it's just very very difficult to make a good game so once we realized it's possible to integrate lightning bitcoin into an existing game we thought you know this just has to work so yeah csgo is one we chose because it's like one of the three pillars of esports gaming it has something like 20 million active users yeah so we we basically just brought it in and we're growing and we almost have to kind of slow down a bit because we can't keep up with the development but the development is going well what are what are these native csgo players that are coming to your servers and and playing for bitcoin what are they saying michael you're just mentioning discord i don't

know if it was the zebedee or csgo discord are people excited about do they even understand what's going on well like i said um some people do obviously like the lowest hanging fruit we've got are people who like csgo and bitcoin right so we've got a lot of like people who are like into bitcoin and like say in the 30s and like oh my god i haven't played csgo in like in years but i'm gonna start up again just because now it has bitcoin in it right you can kind of justify it in a way so those people love it and get it the people who don't know bitcoin the first thing they kind of say is like they love getting something for playing csgo but a lot of what they say is well how do i how do i sell my stash you know like they don't get that they want to

huddle it yet they want to basically liquidate it straight away which is fine but i think they'll probably go down the rabbit hole i've been 10 years like oh my god i liquidated that bitcoin i won on csgo and you know that's like worth you know a thousand dollars now or something right you know i think we've all had that so it's kind of interesting seeing them going through the learning curve but it's just nice that they can kind of get bitcoin without having to kind of you know kyc and buy it on an exchange etc they can just have to get it by playing games right i think it's like gaming is a great way to introduce people into bitcoin it's it's nice seeing that happening like i've got other friends who've got into bitcoin where they've just like well let's

say crypto they've just gone to like coinbase and downloaded it like like ethereum as they call it or something they always like pronounce it wrong right and they're just like seeing it like oh it went up five dollars i went down five dollars but seeing people actually getting into bitcoin through csgo yeah it's quite nice to kind of um see it being done that way that's like the thing i mean that's like what does it for me where it's like i mean just like being at lighting labs and you know obviously being in such a kind of privileged position to see everything that's being built on lightning and kind of in this ecosystem and thinking about okay how do we grow the network how do we bring more users um on board and then i mean it's just like gaming it's just

like to me it's just like light years ahead of like actually onboarding the masses of people because it's like think about like all the friction that's involved in buying bitcoin like starting it's like okay like i gotta go like figure out where to buy it there's all this like okay coinbase where do i buy it then it's like okay like you know like chris said it's like okay i got a kyc how to figure all this out like the the like the barrier to entry is so high and then you have to spend your own money and like there's obviously some like inherent risk involved in that especially for someone who's not following this ecosystem so it's like hey if i can just come like the friction the only friction is is like actually just playing so maybe like the friction

is like getting set up on steam or like downloading a mobile game like one of the thunder games mobile games like that's the only friction but then like you're playing the game you're having fun so you're already like you know that that's already kind of a net neutral because like okay sure i you know got up and running with the game but now i'm having fun and then on top of that you're earning sats and like you're earning real value for like the fun that you're already having so really the barrier to entry is like extremely low and so like to me it's just like literally the most logical on-ramp to onboard masses of people and then especially with like these new generations of people who are like addicted to like the fast casual mobile games and also just

you know this like new generation of people who are kind of like beginning to socialize and like interact um online through gaming and so i mean to me it's like this is this is really how we're going to introduce the next generation of of bitcoiners but then i mean i will also say like i mean we've also always talked about how like the ux of bitcoin is so bad it's so hard but like let me tell you like 70 like nobody's talking about this but this infused product i am telling you it is so easy to use the hardest thing that i've heard from people who want to get up and like start playing the hardest thing to do is like download steam like the the infuse product is so seamless it's like it works every time like literally steam crashes on my computer more than

like infuse so it's like what they're doing is like so incredible and so seamless and i that's that's how you know you have like good ux is that people don't give you credit because it just works um and so they they deserve all the kudos in the world for that and then the wallet is amazing too it's just so user-friendly um and really geared towards gamers so people need they need more credit just saying just to jump in i think just quickly desiree mentioned onboarding the next generation of bitcoiners through gaming des and i actually did like a presentation to fifth graders and today i got a bunch of letters from ohio from like fifth graders i haven't read them yet i think i took a look at one but it's all these like kids like fifth grades how old is that i don't know

it's like a 10 or 11 yeah but they're like saying like oh i'm really into gaming and now i'm gonna like try bitcoin it's really cool i like what you're doing etc etc so it's like really cool to see actually so the post is on twitter that's adorable it is yeah yeah i'm gonna enjoy reading through them how did you switch it to the fifth graders um we just i basically i think what they liked is when we kind of did like a google hangout um i did my background like a kind of gamer kind a twitch streamer because i know like anecdotally my nephews and everything they all like the two jobs that people want to do number one is they want to be a youtuber and number two is they want to like build games so i made like i think it was one of those um career day type things so des and

i were on talking about what we do so i thought you know if i have the nice background with like the mic and the gaming chair and the gaming lights that'll get them and they seem to find that interesting um you combine gaming and youtubing these days just it's crush it like the nick mercs of the world and well yeah well that's kind of another thing we're focusing on at zebedee it's not necessarily integrating bitcoin into games per se but it's integrating bitcoin into like game streaming right so like it's we we have something called a gamertag which if you download our wallet um at zebedee.io you can find it there um you can basically you choose a name so my name would be like mandel duck that's my avatar and then that generates me like a kind

of like a static qr code tip page that you know i can point anybody to but i put that on my stream so as i stream people can kind of tip me and we're gonna do some work on that to make it a bit more interactable so when somebody tips you it'll kind of animate or something it will have some sort of reaction so i really think that that is you know i think gaming has evolved in a way it's not something you do by yourself per se it's something you do socially with people on the internet so i really think that's a great way to get people onto bitcoin because i think tipping was tried before tipping has always been tried in bitcoin but it never really had that connection but i think if you combine it with like game streaming and like twitch chat and the people are talking and when

they talk you can see who's paid the tip and all this kind of stuff i think that could really take off yeah from the podcasting side um sphinx sphinx not sphinx sphinx uh with sphinx specifically that's actually uh one of the cooler interactions of the boost with the animation that it has we've we've accumulated more sats from boost individual boosts than actually streaming sats minute by minute um and it's interactive like and you can tell like at the minute mark like when people are boosting like a certain point and it comes with an animation and as people are listening it's sort of like re-watching a periscope when you see the hearts come up as you're listening it's like that so you have that sort of social cue to it's it's really interesting how like the

the ux and the ui uh particularly around animations and incentivize particular actions from the gaming devs kind of know this right you know if you have like candy crush it's all about making like little tunes and animations that give that slight little bit of dopamine or something and that kind of skin of boxing so i think yeah it's uh i think that's something that bitcoin tipping it kind of missed or hadn't done properly do you guys miss change tip at all wasn't it like that was not with coinbase or something because coinbase had one and didn't like the one i can't remember dan held was behind change tip you could just like tweet at somebody like hey tag yeah because coinbase had it but i think coinbase dropped it because

change tip came out or something and then it kind of i can't remember i have to look it up but yeah i remember it but again i think these are all cool ideas but i think that's what you have with technology right like sometimes if you're the first person to do it it's just a little bit too early right you know um i can't see that with fold right so fold i i remember when they we used to do starbucks cars didn't they right oh yeah we're back in the day and then he disappeared and came back with with lightning and pivoted a bit so it's uh it's interesting you know the kind of the first wave kind of find what works and what doesn't yeah it seems like you guys are finding out what works so let's like jump into infuse like as you mentioned steam and then

infuse separately so let's talk about the workflow i know you mentioned it the first time you guys are on but what's it look like from a user perspective when you're going to use infuse and play csgo that collects stats for that yeah well first thing you have to do is you have to download csgo from steam and it's free to download right you know so it's it's quite easy to do and then you just basically go to zebedee.io slash infuse and download infuse and infuse is basically like this little widget thing that kind of loads up and it doesn't take up much of the screen it kind of sits next to or above your csgo game and you log into infuse with with steam um and then once you've logged into an infuse with steam that kind of like behind the scenes that links with

your csgo game which you also kind of log into with steam yeah and that's pretty much it you basically we once you've done that in the little infuse box it has a bunch of servers that you can jump into so we have like sponsored servers at the moment you know so one's like sponsored by pay with moon or bitstamp so they're free to enter and you click on that you join a game you know go you know pew pew pew shoot people and then infuse will tell you how many sats you're kind of earning and at the end of the game you can withdraw it's pretty simple you know it's a so which is i'm trying to think like uh the withdrawal process for a first time bitcoin user do they sort of get it do you have like a wallet that you

recommend them on the wallet or do they sort of figure infuse is technically its own wallet so it kind of infuse will hold the sats for you but you can obviously withdraw any time so it works with any lightning wallet right you know because it just uses the ln you url withdrawal protocol obviously we recommend the zebedee wallet just because you know it's like the same note behind the scenes everything will work super smooth and super quick yeah i think people take it off and then like put it on their phone to go spend somewhere else or something like that yeah yeah yeah exactly so i think i'm actually doing a podcast with pay with moon guy on thursday but i think what a lot of people will do is they'll play some games and they'll earn some sats and

some people will hodl it and some people will maybe like send it to like a pay with moon card and spend it to buy whatever they want maybe half and half um yeah that's the interesting that's the interesting thing about moon too and i'd be interested to see if you guys would ever integrate something like with like they have their wallet and you really don't know which part of the stack you're using bitcoin from it's pay with moon and moon the same thing because it's pay with the card and there's moon wallet right yeah pay with moon is like a crypto debit card i was informed recently that pay with moon is now moon as well the website is pay with moon double or u u n no this is this is m o o n we're talking different moons here

just a moon into the conversation while we're on it so are you what are some of like the user tendencies particularly like new users you're finding that some users are really good and using this to accumulate sats yeah that's one of the issues we have at the moment which is kind of an issue in gaming anyway but it become more of an issue when you have sats it's um you get some really good people in there right so the first service we had in csgo you would have to kind of pay to enter so you have to pay like 500 sats and then everybody would pay 500 sats and then um that would be like the pot for the game right and then you know the better players would get the larger percentage

of that pot right so if you got like 90 of the score you'll get 90 of the sats so obviously we had some like professional players coming in and we had some new people who wanted to try out who would just basically get owned um so but we've managed to address that a little bit at the moment so um with the sponsored servers everybody kind of gets sats right you know because you don't have to pay anything to enter we also have a team mode now um so you can actually play with a team against another team um but yeah but i think i guess that that was the main challenge is just trying to work out the incentives i know like csgo has some sort of like ranking system you know but then people can kind of uh what's the word gain that a little bit i think they call it

smurfing where somebody will try and they're pretty strong but they'll somehow get like a low ranked account um i remember doing that with halo yeah but we have like moderators so big shout out to the moderators we have like people from the community so we've got quite a good community that's evolved around infused now so they are always in the service keeping a watch out during the discord so somebody's kind of doing something to spoil the fun of you know they'll give them a warning or kick them etc it's you know etc um yeah but no but it's just quite exciting and it's still evolving i think infuse has only been out really since like maybe like late january or something not long so we're kind of learning as we go but it's just insane how much it's grown in

these past few months well it's insane the um like the incentive mechanisms you can build in with lightning like i'm thinking like would you guys ever think about like putting in a staking function like sphinx has for commenting like if if it's something with that somebody's in our tribe in tftc like to mitigate spam or incentivize spam when they when they make a comment they have to stake i think our stakes like 100 sets or something like that um and if it's not if i don't deem it like spam or trolling oh yeah you get their their sats back after like three hours yeah i get to take the sats from them um i think it depends on the stakes of the game so we have different servers but like obviously the more bitcoin you put in the server so say the bitcoin

is like you know 10 000 sats to enter like the server and it's lots of prizes you'll get more kind of people trying to you know game it and cheat and all this stuff but if the server's lower like 800 sats the pro players won't go in there because they're not going to earn as much as the higher ones so we generally would the thinking at the moment is if the higher stakes are there maybe we require a little bit more from the users to enter so like not just anybody can enter maybe they have to deposit or they have to have like a premium account so i think csgo has like a premium account where you pay like 15 but that just makes it you know if someone gets banned they can't quickly or cheaply make a new account because they have to pay for it so it's all about trying to

manage that but at the moment i think it's going quite well actually so i'm surprised you know we do have like some people cheating now and then but for the most part like 99 it's going well but again that goes to the moderators who are doing a great job and how's the technical management going on the back side like channel management node management i think this is great where we get michael in because he's actually the guy who makes sure everything runs the unsung hero he's like the node master at the zebedee master of the node master of the nodes at least transitioning to become the uh a master of lightning i don't know if i'm there yet every day is a is another day for it but um yeah we so so in terms of channel management and stuff it's

it's mainly just topping off channels because a lot of what we're doing is one way you know we're paying out so uh balancing the channels you know is is probably 99 percent of channel management there so nothing nothing too fancy in my opinion uh you know we have a pool of nodes that we pull from and each ones are you know first level citizens we don't have any kind of fancy you know set up where we're routing you know all of this through this through that they're all just you know we have a pool of nodes that kind of round robin between with our infrastructure so uh yeah not not not too much but uh i kind of want to i kind of want to jump into the the csgo uh topic specifically because it's it's kind of interesting um because when you you know when you

start you know adding in this permissionless decentralized money into a game where anyone can just join and get some uh we we see i think some of the interesting things is seeing the creativity uh for people trying to farm it in different ways uh whether you know it be just someone constantly playing it legitimately for 12 hours straight or someone trying to set up some kind of automation and being able to find those things and have you know like chris said a good moderator group really helps and it's just it's we're i think we're like on our 12th iteration of like stopping farming essentially from being easy like i think like originally we we had like like people would go in with two accounts commit suicide with a molotov cocktail and then they

would die they would drop their sets and they would go pick it up and just keep doing this kind of stuff and you know we we've just kept iterating and iterating where now it's like it's it gets now it's you know it gets harder and harder and harder to farm it and now we even have moderators where if they suspect someone is farming they'll actually report them for farming we'll kick them out uh for that so not just like wall hacking which is i learned is wh so whenever you see like cheetah reports we have all these things going into our messaging uh group um whenever someone's saying wh it means wall hack so i'm learning csgo lingo here what's the wall hack wall hack is where you can uh not only does maybe your cursor help you with headshots or

whatever but it it helps you know that the person it'll automatically point to them even if they're behind a wall two walls whatever and your cursor will go to them and because we've set up a replay system it's a lot easier to detect these things and verify these claims uh because you know when looking at a replay and this guy is just like automatically and then as soon as he dies his cursor goes somewhere else it it's it's very easy um this kind of goes back to um the general topic of how do you how do you prevent you know client side you know people on their computers from cheating and and ultimately you know the more complex the game is the harder that is as you mentioned halo you know as remember if you remember you know people used to mod on halo 2

like crazy right and they would boost you know with like a bogus account you know with like a two-month free trial on xbox live and they would boost and it would get banned and you know that's rinse and repeat right um so so even halo you know bungie uh struggled with client-side validation because if you remember at that time one player in the in the game on halo was the host right so they had to do all the ver you know validation right they were the server now for us we're running our own server so we can run more validation and um it's it's you know perfect validation is is really hard the more complex the game gets the simpler the game is like for instance like a turn-based game like checkers or chess or something you know something that's like

where it's very like turn-based it's very easy to do server-side validation but for something that's like ongoing and you know first-person shooter kind of stuff uh you know the wall hacking is is pretty hard to prevent because you don't know whether or not the player is just very good or he has some kind of modded client that helps him point at people right i think this is where like if it ever takes off but like stadia or cloud gaming would really help right stadia yeah yeah yeah because then if everyone has the same shitty latency then we're good i mean like you know like in the future if i everyone's on fiber or something but yeah but people yeah have latency i have stadia with google fiber right now um where i am and uh it's probably not good for esports so

because esports is very competitive but maybe like casual gaming it doesn't matter a bit of latency but yeah i can imagine it not really working a competitive esport yeah like i was just actually before we were hopping on here barstool they posted like a video of like a land party like the first land party in texas after all the lockdowns and stuff and it was hilarious watching these i think they were playing uh black ops and they were just getting so intense like could you like replicate uh these servers put in fuse in and do like in-person betting like so obviously you're cutting out the potential for somebody yeah that's that's that's very similar to what we're doing in miami where everyone's that's joining these uh east you know

these esport tournament these these games that we're going to be hosting are going to be in person and uh it's not going to be you're not going to be able to cheat there because you know all the people that are doing the games are going to be in person so you're using our you know equipment so uh people do cheat in in-person csgo tournaments so they're helping like oh i i uh you know we get found out what are they going to do plug uh go to i guess google download something real quick or plug a usb stick in or something secretly i don't know what they do but there's like been some famous cases where like you know like somebody people i just make sure whichever one's hacked to win i want to use that computer when i play so this is like another thing that

the lighting network enables that you can like integrate like maybe you stake the whole pool of the game a particular game the payout the pot whatever you want to call it you wait to like 15 minutes after to make sure you can check to make sure there's nothing modded or no farming or anything like that and then release it after that yeah that's that's actually so we have a mode called survival mode uh if you don't mind i'll talk about this for a second where we would you know one of the things people would do is they would come in and you start with a certain amount of sats especially if it's like a sponsored server and you would start out let's say with a thousand sats for as example and when you came in you could just quit immediately and take your sat so that

was like you know step one to prevent that and then step two is like well now you have to wait in there for you know five minutes before you can start withdrawal you know you have to you know survive for you know a certain amount of time uh before you can withdraw and we've we've implemented that in uh some of the games that are continuous that don't have necessarily like a timer like rounds um one thing i do want to say though about survival mode that's kind of funny is um if you if you do happen to play csgo and like i like you know we're saying this is open right now people can go you know to infuse you know zebedee slash infuse and uh and check this out the survival mode you actually drop physical coins so we've we've modded the game to where

you drop physical like you know sats bitcoin there and you can go pick up you know people's bitcoin and what people i've seen people do is they'll kill someone and then they'll just camp that body waiting for someone to go and pick that those coins up and then they'll kill them and then there'll be more coins and then you're just like do i risk it and go obviously where i'm about to get killed and pick up a bunch of satoshis or do i kind of hold back you know it's like this really emotional thing where it's like, I could just jump in there and run around like crazy and try to collect sats and I know I'm going to die, or am I going to lose more

sats by jumping in? It's kind of an interesting proposition to make. I think the amateurs will go, ooh, shiny coin, and they'll get it and then headshot. I mean, you're pretty much describing me playing Counter-Strike. It's so fascinating,

all these tendencies that have happened, like farming, right? wasn't there like was that like an early bitcoin story wasn't there like a bunch of gamers in venezuela farming like world of warcraft gold or something like that and converting it to bitcoin um for whether it be legitimate or not i mean you hear about the gold farms uh back in the day well i don't i don't know about venezuela but i definitely knew about chinese miners for while doing wild gold stuff and uh um i want to say didn't like that bsb guy uh calvin or

something didn't he do that wasn't that his i think yeah he he was his money i hear is from like canadian gambling or something right some sort of online gambling maybe i might be wrong his riches are made from just farming just having he's in a movie somebody told me apparently there's a movie about it and like one of the characters is based on him i can't remember what it was i think who told me that um yeah some bitcoin had told me that speaking about people farming uh francis who was francis pulio i think he told me because he was from canada so he said that canadian yeah apparently everybody knows about this kind of thing he's more famous there apparently and there's a movie that was based on him the um the the you know speaking about like

you know well i'll just call it like third world countries or just like other world you know not like america and europe i guess you could say but like um there there's there's this kind of like cool like thing that's going on this phenomenon kind of like almost like a funny cool side effect of mint gox and infuse just in general where people now across the world let's say i'll just make up a number like their their monthly wage equivalent in u.s dollars is maybe ten dollars or something but now they're able to get on mint gox uh mint gox sunday or uh infuse you know game or something and then quickly rack up uh the same amount of money that they may make in like a whole month uh you know salary and if you want to think about like you know you hear

about these charities where like you give money and 50 of it immediately goes to overhead and then another 30 goes to this and then by the time it gets to the actual person it's only like you know 10 or 5 or less or something so so the cool part about the sponsors that sponsor mint gox and infuse and stuff like this is they're literally we're literally i think running the best charity possible now obviously you know we talked about there's people every once in a while that cheat and stuff but 99% of the time we're running like i think one of the best charities in the world which is really cool um we kind of so we do these csgo tournaments each month in mint gox and because we give the larger price afterwards like the cheaters don't get it because like we give like

10 000 stats or something and we kind of just check you know before we hand it out but i think the last champion was something like a kid from south america he's just like you know earns more money than his dad did for the last three months or something crazy well that's another beauty of it right like the fact that you can build and fuse put it out there as software and it's like we actually have at the moment for another game that we developed which is kind of more like a tech demo game it is a mario kart game and with bitcoin called bitcoin rally but we got half a bitcoin we're doing a half a bitcoin tournament with that at the moment so we had 12 people qualify and they're currently i think the the final they've done the penultimate race but the

final race will be done at bitcoin miami and yeah but you know that's half a bitcoin up for grabs you know for the for the winner of like for second third place the winner gets like 0.25 and then we kind of you know well i mean but um you know we are doing um the next mink ox in person at bitcoin 2021 and it's going to be absolutely massive two days of insanity insane bitcoin gaming and i mean total that we're giving out over those two days is over a bitcoin in prizes um along with like other cool swag and stuff so like people can come and play and get in on this so it's not i mean the stuff that we've been doing um regularly at the monthly mint boxes are like just kind of the beginning like this is you know this in-person event i think is going to really people are going

to get it they're going to see it in person and see the power and like you know sponsors will get the value add if like you know really directly interacting with people who are the users who are playing these games so i mean bitcoin 2021 is going to be massive in itself but like the esports tournament is going to be literally smack dab in the middle and i mean you can't miss it so yeah over a bitcoin in prices that's all i'm gonna say it's crazy as come on you guys are working on the lightning network over 100 million sets we're uh we're we're fixing the unit bias here okay okay sorry yeah it's over 100 billion sets now it's gonna be it's gonna be insane that said i'm actually excited for the mint gox tournament particularly because from what i

hear matt odell's working closely with the uh the bitcoin 2021 crew and there's um people from outside the bitcoin world they're going to be there that you wouldn't expect and like this caliber person seeing like how bitcoin's getting integrated into pop culture my discord um let me let me ping someone because you know we were planning to drop to name drop um during this podcast but you know we're still kind of like you mentioned what'd you say yeah yeah our lips are sealed into someone who may or may not do extreme sports extreme oh yeah i'm not gonna yeah no but we'll we'll announce them i'm gonna ping see if we can when are you supposed to announce it it was supposed to be i mean we we're just like waiting

for the right approvals you know you got to like have all the pretty language and say all the right things um i mean it's official but bitcoin you don't need to do that we know how we know how far this part this podcast reaches the ears of many including janet yellen and sec and she's right here i gotta give us i see so yeah she's um ah now it's bugging me currently the head of the u.s treasury right yeah she's uh the head of the u.s treasury she had some strong words for bitcoin last week um is it a promotion or a lateral move to go from the head of the fed to the head of the treasury is that a or is it just what is the promotion lateral emotion when she's there right now it's really it's really lateral right because the fed and the

treasury have sort of merged in the last year where there's really no separation so she's basically chair fed co-fed chair woman with jerome pal even though they've been like fighting with each other publicly which has been incredible you have to you have to at least let the public know that there's not collusion right i mean they they like to pretend like there is publicly state that the fed is private and separate from the treasury but they've completely merged actually a good episode maddie mazingtious from the crypto voices podcast a great bitcoiner last week episode 250 i believe where he explains that treasury department actually has like a a 2.5 billion dollar bank account with the with the fed just like it's literally like their bank account which

has never happened before in the history of the treasury and the fed and they're literally conjoined they're just printing money and giving it i have heard that janet yellen was quite sound because this is economist i follow who's like one of those old school republicans kind of austrian thinking the government spends their money blah blah and he always vouched for her then when she gets the job it's like it's like in england one of our leading politicians in the government he's the son of the author of the sovereign individual and before he like was like um yeah jacob re-smog so lord re-smog is one of the authors and before he became like a politician he said all the right things right you know and as soon as you become a politician it's just interesting like i kind

of think if you become a politician do you like go into a room and then the aliens are there and then you kind of see how it really isn't i don't think it's like you just like see on paper like how fucked up everything is it's like oh shit it's like we either get chaos or i just pretend like i completely shifted my worldview yeah i i believe when i believe chris that the lizard people are there to uh help with the introductions to uh all the levers of the world and uh there's a room with just levers that control the whole inner workings of the world people control that so i want to become prime minister just to see if that happens like after that i'd quit like after day one but just to see like the first meeting right now you walk into the room the lizard

people sacrifice something they say if you fuck up this is you they probably kill me and steal my skin right and one of them gets it and then i'm not me anymore and then you start blinking like this like from side to side it's uh i haven't fallen down the lizard people rabbit hole in quite a while it's always fun to rehash you know the lizard people conspiracy theory they're among us be aware freaks i could be one it's out of fashion these days i think right it's one of those like the 90s david ike uh david ike yeah yeah he's also known that i say in england because he's like english isn't he the reason we haven't really seen a whole lot of lizard people in the in the flesh like in with their lizard skin is because uh you know going off the flat earth

theory they're on the other side of the earth they're on the other side of the pancake we're on the top side they're on the bottom side so that's why we don't see them often can they like crawl over though they they can only crawl over because they have like the talons to climb to the of the earth and but we can't swear i think i think uh i think you've dug into this conspiracy a little bit more than i have so uh people one of the actually earlier bit so i used to live in japan and the bitcoin meetup there was made by roger ver and he's second in command i'm not going to name him but he was like you know basically was with roger started i think it's like the second bitcoin meetup that ever happened i think the first one was in

california but the one in japan was the first but he was like a massive flat earther and later became a bsv guy and now he thinks craig wright is jesus shocker but really nice guy though it's like a really cool guy he's a good friend but it's just interesting talking to him and having there's still something to be said about flat earthers and bsv um you know in terms of like knowing the truth you know they they just once once you know the truth you just keep going i suppose yeah yeah there's something like you know that well i guess that's common i think even normal bitcoin and even like stuff like you know crossfit or whatever like we know the truth and the others don't and that's you know we want to tell yeah when you get into that it's like well

the deep well i i do this to detox and this detox and this exercise and then eating for your blood type and then eating for your body type and all it's all it all meshes at some point there's it's some vertex all these things combine and vsv is one of these circles that combines into that yeah yeah if you're not eating meat and uh sunning your balls every day you're not a true bitcoiner sorry des that was that's a little no it doesn't grease i'm sure i think i wouldn't be here if i didn't write so let's talk more about the bitcoin 2021 no i'm kidding uh but seriously what uh what is is being played csgo only no everything but csgo's um definitely kind of the main event along with

bitcoin rally there's going to be a lot of kind of free play um free play sessions so people can come and play um like as they wish and demo games um including csgo and bitcoin rally um we're going to have sat stack what'd you say oh yes a new game um you want to talk about that now or are you going to just like announce it there which casually mention it's yeah i've made stuff public about it but we haven't shown anything but yeah but sorry he he's the audience come on it's basically like yeah smash brothers that that was that was rally is mario kart with bitcoin smash this new one is smash like we're not trying to reinvent the wheel with these internal games they're more just

kind of fun things that we can play at mink gox and kind of show what can work etc and experiment that was another one of my games smash bros it was always link i was crushing with link actually i should give credit because i actually think i got i would say it was probably because of this show that i'm making this smash brothers game um because i remember you did you did a show with um a lightning caller and um you were talking about putting bitcoin into street fighter i believe and would it be cool if like somebody could punch and they could stream a sat so i listened to that show and at the time there was like a hackathon that i couldn't attend in person but i just thought i know i'll just hack that up so i actually made this kind of lightning street fighter game and

where you would punch in the wallet i even made like a lightning wallet based on lnd so shout out to lightning lab said but like if you play it if you punch and kick it was stream sats and then i actually entered that into a bitcoin 2019 which was like the bitcoin miami book two years ago and i entered it into the competition then and won and like from the back of that we kind of formed zebedee and we started to make that game more and we called it reiki but we pivoted to making it more of like a smash brothers tune game so in a way there's a little bit of credit here for the inspiring the thought wow i'm i'm flattered this is crazy yeah no hey smash bros i'm happy that's evolved to smash bros too because i would pick smash bros over like

tekken or street fighter yeah like well like this kind of ties in like csgo can be a it is like quite a competitive game so we're kind of making these more fun family casual games which have more of an among us model so csgo you kind of play with anybody but these games you can kind of play with your friends does that make sense calling smash bros casual like it's a pretty intense game that's true at the high level but anyway but it can be done in a casual way with friends if you're weak but it should be done very serious i'm kidding yeah so now i'm like curious are you like replicating like all the exact moves like do you have like a jigglypuff um well kirby kirby's unfair let's just say this kirby's unfair in smash bros if you play with kirby

yeah i don't talk too much about it because we're gonna like reveal it and it is a work in progress but like the appeal of smash brothers is you can play from different characters from different games but we obviously can't do that because of the ip so what we're doing is we're gonna like have you would play as different characters from history so you could play like it's like a samurai versus you know a cowboy but we're also going to throw in like some bitcoin themed characters in there as well so if you wanted to you could play against like a cypherpunk versus a unicorn on rainbow kid i won't say which crypto that is that sounds okay i'm gonna get gaming of 2021 what uh what sticks are using for that ps4 ps5 now when is the ps5 now you mean gamepads

yeah is it on computer are you guys using like it'll be on computer at the moment like you know we're not really the point yet to approach the larger consoles but yeah they'll be on it but it'll support like a bunch of different game pads you can plug in your ps5 or your xbox game pad if you want but um yeah it'll be pc only because it's just free at the moment right we don't have any restrictions that we do on pc but once we start to go through like publishers and platforms then you know you get things you can and can't do yeah so game pads joysticks right so you can bring around joystick and play it like going into dev like the way we do it there's like this um kind of sdk which will basically you put in your game and like any controller will work with it

like if it doesn't you can like configure it right so you can play with like you probably play with like a peloton if you wanted to or something if you configured it right so with the um like with all the activity it's increasing with like csgo and stuff like that michael are you like trying to make the nodes profitable like routing wise no i'm just trying make us uh not have any downtime right now so the i think the routing and also like any ideas of like getting into like the marketplace of channels and all these potential like side things i think are definitely second priority compared to just making sure everything works and um uh i mean i don't know if if you've talked to too many people that are running a bunch of nodes but

uh, you know, I'm very optimistic for the, for the future, but, uh, last couple of months, uh, have been a little bit tougher than normal. So, uh, mainly just like making sure we have, uh, you know, no downtime is, is the real goal at least at the moment. Why is that? What's my note has gone a couple of times. Yeah. And then like, if you, yeah, so it's just because everything's still really like alpha slash beta and things are getting a lot better the one thing i do like is uh the primary node type that we're using is lnd and uh uh lightning labs engineers and lnd developers have been pretty responsive on github for a lot of things which has been really

nice yeah yay love to hear it love to hear it um yeah i mean do you guys check out lightning terminal that's like my newest favorite thing yeah i actually i wanted to ask a question uh during the the thing today but uh i i wasn't actually it seems like lightning terminal is lit plus features because i didn't really get the whole like web uh the i didn't get the whole web selling point i maybe we can talk about this later but i don't know if this is how you want the side into it yeah i mean yeah i think you should chill it and then and then explain it more because we are and i'll i'll caveat with first that we are using lit for all of our nodes but i mean i've already kind of exposed it internally like via like web for us so i don't

i didn't really get the whole like exposing on the internet spiel yeah i mean that's all like still like very early and like more will be coming out on that obviously like the roundtables are you know a little bit of a big peak but you know obviously with terminal web I like we need with the names like although lightning terminal with me because like the abbreviation was lit like i came up with that one um anyways yeah i mean terminal web is like awesome because it's like this total this total like node scoring um gamification piece i mean something that we were thinking a lot about at um lightning labs is like kind of the stuff that um that michael's talking about where it's like okay we want the network not just to grow and more people to come on board but

we really want to think about growing a robust secure and reliable network you know so people can actually like very reliably use the network and stay online so that was kind of the intention with terminal web where it's like okay hey like yeah there's like kind of an interesting like gamification incentives piece and there's more to be built with that and a lot of fun stuff that we're going to be doing over the next couple quarters but really the intention is like hey how can we incentivize people to like not just get on the network but how can we incentivize um people to to um run like strong performant nodes and so that's where it's like okay what's your node score and you know you know if your node score totally sucks um you know you're unstable

or you don't have good peers um really kind of providing the resources and the guides to actually improve um your node and contribute to a stronger network is really kind of the intentionality between but behind um terminal web so um yeah i mean there's a lot of um new fun stuff um coming with that um and yeah we'll definitely get back on here marty uh we have way more to share about that well i just pulled up my rtftc node info i loved it when it came out i checked it up is your node score is that like the centrality score or no it's it's just like kind of a combination of i mean i don't remember like totally exactly it's like um i think walu tweeted about it but it's it's just like kind of an arbitrary rating like based on you know what

which peers you're connected to like how stable your node is like how long it's been online and i think if you pull up um damn we're number 369 right now it's good is this similar to a boss score yeah i think it's it's it's like it's pretty much based on the number 285 yeah our nude went down like for like three days last week that's why i think we dropped but you're number 285 percentile you're in because that made me sound a bit better because like 300 something always sounds bad maybe it's like the top one percentile yeah no that's good like you know just i've spent a lot of time on there but um you know i want to do some like fun things to gamify it a bit like do some like profile badges for you know people who like you know

hit different uh achievements and whatnot but yeah i mean if you like actually click on your node and go through it's like um it goes through some insights notice online um amount of channels um what like rating of your routing capacity full of channel stability like how many good periods you have etc um so you know we'll continue to build this out so this is like very early but um yeah i mean i think it's kind of cool um community resource and just kind of help i wonder i wonder what the gamification is when you start handing out badges and like hey you have this you've been up for this amount of time to become a target for someone who's like hey these guys are you know i like in order to get above like let's say the top 500 i need to start taking

out some of this low-hanging fruit up here so i can get up there yeah there's a lot of considerations to go out and that's why i'm glad it's like you know not just me thinking about it um so it's like i mean i get so excited to do things where it's like hey can we like give emojis to people who do this or whatnot i'm so like you know i have lots of really bad ideas so thinking some of those more malicious actions um is definitely um you know something like ryan or Justin, all the folks on our team will. So one thing that I've learned recently about Lightning LND nodes, and something I wasn't really privy to before

Lightning was the flap count. If you're familiar with that, every node that you're observing has a flap count. And this is actually like a real term. It's network flapping or route flapping. And you all are using that as one the you know pieces of metadata you can you can find out about your peers that you're connected to and um anyways the flap count should definitely be used with these badges so um somehow integrate

that in where maybe your peers can give you badges if you have low flap count kind of stuff i like that i like that anyway it's kind of like yeah like giving people stickers or something i like that that's a really good yeah and and just for uh anyone who doesn't know the the flap count is like how often your nodes goes up and down kind of like if you if you go offline if you become unavailable and you come back online yeah it would be like two flaps uh it's almost like i guess like wings on a bird flap i don't know but uh i keep wanting to say fat account and that lightning fabs it's like you went there michael everyone that runs an lnd node and they're keeping track of the fab account just letting you guys know it came here first broke the conspiracy here on the

pod everyone here was thinking fab count when you said it but you were the only one who had the balls to say it so thank you keep that fab count low freaks we're considering our t our t all right this is it's important to keep that fab count low serving our sets as you're jumping out on guide talk here i'm sorry about that i know i know it's okay now uh what are you looking for from a protocol development like i um i mean this is way off not even in the conversation here code's not even written but like sig hash any prev out which would enable l2 like lightweight watch towers um it's cool uh one thing that is live now that lisa you didn't um launch is like the dual funded channels just coming like does that

help you guys at all in any way um yeah we have some i mean we're obviously working on sidecar channels um which is something that we've talked about one of our recent blog posts so yeah i mean what lisa's doing is really cool um was excited to hear her um talk at austin bit devs a little bit more about that um yeah i mean today um you know we did like a big road map presentation um which i unfortunately couldn't attend all of um so i don't know i mean there's there's a lot of cool stuff that's in the works um yeah i think i'm most excited about sidecar channels just because i mean that to me that's like i don't know like on the business side of thing it's like okay Okay, how do we make it easier to onboard people and so if you know you can as a merchant not because totally onboard somebody to lightning without having them to commit any upfront capital is like extremely powerful so I think that's just like kind of

like a really interesting tool that I'll be like, you know, I think it's like super technical when we talk about it but like actually the business case around it is really powerful so I'm really interested to see kind of the network effects and see people start adopting that you know see what impact it has on um you know really easily onboarding folks yeah yeah i mean how would that help you guys at zebedee like do you think like no so i so right now we are completely uh custodial uh at least for argument's sake um i i am not so i'll i'll admit i am not uh thinking about all these new crazy you know awesome features that we could use uh just yet um i'm i know like between now and next year not only are we going to have all these features or or sorry not all these years but more features and then also uh potential you know uh having l2 and you know taproot outputs and you know maybe like between

now and next year no no channel that exists right now is going to be like even close to a channel that's being created you know a year from now and i i hope it's like that so um i'm kind of just it's kind of like a fire hose and i'm just i'm doing the parts that are available right now um and and the future is tomorrow so i'm i'm learning as i you know as i go for for some of this and uh i'm glad des is here to tell me what i need to be doing now one thing that uh is is very interesting for companies like zebedee who did take the custodial approach um potentially you know as things get easier um for for non-custodial type transactions and and engagements um the idea of either having a hybrid model or transitioning in the future i think is very very interesting um for all kinds

of reasons uh security compliant you know et cetera et cetera so in the early days we did actually before you came on board we did actually come up with plans for this and even like how it would work you know and um i think our sdk still supports linking your btc pay server but yeah it's just um it's i think it's you know lightning is still quite new and even given like high fees and channels it is quite difficult to do non-custodial at the moment and we're really focusing on gamers and to get gamers onto lightning we really need to make it as smooth as possible like if they have to think about a channel and everything it's just basically game over yeah we're not really tackling that at the moment i am like very i mean this is one thing that like

i i feel like i'm becoming more and more passionate about like i mean i am all about being non-custodial and you know like really to the day i die but it's not real right like i mean what what michael's saying is like spot on where it's like hey you know we would love to be custodial or non-custodial if we could but like guess what it's really really hard to build a super user-friendly very easy like seamless non-custodial wallet it's extremely extremely hard so like I mean you kind of just have to make that business decision it's like hey do we kind of reap this opportunity and bring on all these users and you know take this opportunity of a bull market and people pumped about bitcoin gaming and onboard them as quick as possible and then transition them to non-custodial when we

actually have the tools to build what to build what we're building non-custodially like i think that's like to me like that's the decision that i would make you know obviously at lightning lab we're trying to like pump out those kind of tools um and you get enable people to build these non-custodial solutions in the future but like you know i mean what like zebedee is doing right now is like it's just like such like a logical business decision and like i mean hey we're all bitcoiners like we all get it like everybody wants to be non-custodial but like what that timeline looks like what that progression is to getting there is like is going to be different for everyone and i think that's like totally totally fine and so you know once the tech is

i'm sure everybody will be non-custodial people can earn enough sats in csgo to buy like a raspio red pie blitz or an umbrella whatever right oh and the other way like is there ways you could just create the conditions from which people want to use it in our custodial fashion could easily like could you incentivize like subscription i think it incentivizes itself generally i think kind of once you've been to bitcoin custodially long enough then eventually you're going to hit some sort of annoying like kyc thing or something and then or you're going to have to like do some sort of annoying tax return or something right so i think generally in my experience like you know custodial is fine for small amounts but once you start to get a bit

of bitcoin and then like an exchange gets hacked or something then you start to realize the importance of being non-custodial and i think like it's easier now than ever to be non-custodial right yeah yeah and i just want to make a point that most of the time when users you know when any amount of bitcoin they they can i think yeah take it take it off to a non-custodial lightning wallet that they own so people don't have to kyc to play our games initially obviously like like because we're a company and we were registered in real countries and stuff like if you start to do a lot then there is a kind of a layer of kyc but for most people like because it's all about micro payments and small amounts they don't really need anything like an email

address and then they can just like get bitcoin withdraw to their other wallet and they're done with it like in terms like node manager like you're talking about like a subscription service for csgo like a premium service like as premium servers for csgo that you were talking about earlier that was on the lightning side that's up to your steam thing um you can have like a steam like platinum platinum account which is like dollars so i was thinking like if you could incentivize people to open channels with you um like if you open a channel you get a free premium account or something like that yeah yeah it's cool i think there's definitely a lot of gamification around channels i actually thought of making a game once in early days about you know like

something to do with channels that you know how you get a score for how well connected you are which i guess is what des was actually it's doing now in a way I think it's like a collab that needs to happen, Chris, like a Lighting Lab Zebedee collab on Terminal One. Sure, yeah, no, it's, I'm actually doing something as well, I'm assisting Nayuta, if you know that company, Japanese lightning company, so they actually have, they're working on like a non-custodial wallet, and also Koji, who works for them, he has a game coming out which it uses the game uses the zebedee sdk but it links with their non-custodial wallet and does streaming as you play so there's definitely models there but obviously you know

it is like you still need a channel which you know um but it's you know it's just time right i think short surely like as the protocol evolves there's going to be easy ways to do that and stuff like channel factories etc etc and i'm sure that like roast beef has a bunch of ideas just probably needs a bunch of soft forks but i think it was a really cool idea what you brought up where you incentivize based on some kind of premium content for the user to have the burden to open up a channel with you to then get potentially paid as well so the company wouldn't have to open up that channel i think i think that's a really interesting idea to gamify the the channel uh you know connectivity right a lot of businesses are incentive it's i think there is an incentive

um they're incentivized to do non-custodial because if you are custodial then the business has a lot of like regulatory pressure and things it has to do right you know especially like in japan it's very hard it's pretty much impossible to make a non-custodial wallet because to get their license after like mink gox and coin check it's basically you have to be rich and play golf with the prime minister to basically get that license so like non-custodial is the only way to do it there really um and get some they got some scar tissue from mount gox no coin check was the main one like mount gox was like whatever coin check which was like nem right i think that's like still the biggest bank heist in history but that was like when they got really really strict like

there were like a bunch of japanese exchanges maybe a bunch one but i can't they they were ready to go with lightning like the dev there is like a proper lightning bull and they they almost had it ready to go in like an early fate but they just couldn't get the green light unfortunately just because of coin tech, because of NEM NEM coin NEM coin, god damn NEM coin

ah the shit coins they're never going away I've resented myself to the fact Michael can I share can I sell my rare pepes at like an inflated price right now yeah, always

I feel I was doing some auctions wasn't he i've got some i got some rare pepe's that were gifted to me by joe looney one one thing that uh one thing that um bitcoin 2021 might not give us stage two is the is the rare pepe type stuff but uh but remember the smaller one always will will have a place for the for the freaks so just letting you know yeah it's it's been completely commercialized now you got Adrian Gurnier leading an NFT talk at the Bitcoin 2021. I was like seeing

Joe Looney being angry at Christie's on Twitter. No, that's not the first NFT. I think he's going to write a book, isn't he, about it to get the true history, get the facts down. It's crazy. I like the revision because remember the ERC-20 rare Pepes that

completely... Yeah, he tried to do it but didn't have the heart, did he? No, he never has the heart. Rare Pepes. with the demise of derose and uh john seth unfortunately yeah well yeah was it didn't he no that's pepe cash wasn't it was he like sold it to get a car or something to remodel his kitchen was the joke yeah uh i haven't like i think rep i think pepe cash actually pumped because that was actually

it was weird because in japan there was an exchange called zeif and they were they got the license so they were like a proper like japanese fca approved exchange and they basically and the japanese government came out with them cryptocurrencies that it allowed it was like bitcoin ripple ethereum and pepe cash was on there just because i've had it on so that was one of the reasons why i pumped and i remember going to the um do my tax return in japan and i didn't even pay for an accountant so the government gives you like this free accountant i was like trying to explain to her like what pepe cash was do i have to declare this you get a state uh ordered accountant like you get a defense lawyer in the u.s if

yeah i've never heard of that but the whole entire story is ridiculous yeah it was weird you know but they're not like dogecoin like the richest man in the world likes dogecoin so that's even more ridiculous god elon's caused me a lot of headaches this week as a as a bitcoin miner it's been that uses fossil fuels as a energy source it's been a it's been a long week already like i'm over it yeah well we're on to um we're on to ransomware now miners miners have been pushed to the wayside we're ransomware is the big boogeyman in the room we gotta ban bitcoin because everybody's system security is dog shit so i want to say where i'm from atlanta something happened big where our something got locked up i can't remember what

it was like a couple weeks ago colonial pipeline yeah that's something to do with like everyone's freaking out about gasoline and filling up garbage bags of gasoline and people and you know the brightest so dc police are like still like negotiating some like ransomware attack as well like it's been like months or something but they're releasing all this like spicy information about the police force so they've been like under lockdown it's well i feel like i every time i hear about the colonial pipeline or whatever or ransomware it's it's like one day it's like five million dollars and it's 85 million dollars what was the what was the fallout or how much did they get what was i actually talked uh to a woman dr ellen bald who's in the oil and gas industry

and she we were supposed to record a podcast two weeks ago but the whole colonial thing went down she's like i can't do it right now i can like focus on this colonial thing and she dug into it And so apparently what happens is that the attackers, they'll basically scour public records for insurance claims by the companies and they'll find the amount that the insurance company will cover and they'll ask for that amount or somewhere right below that. And so they target these companies and then go, hey, I need $10 million.

You have a $10 million insurance policy. And so that's how they dictate it. is it working yeah these like these scammers have like customer support lines like so like you can call and they will tell you how to buy bitcoin i mean like they have like full-fledged organizations like agencies like real employees like i mean it's no joke it's like it's crazy so the best defense against ransomware is not having an insurance policy it's not worth at least not a public one right yeah finally it existed before bitcoin like obviously not it's not as easy to do but you have like like a po box you'd have to like mail it to

the money and stuff yeah somebody uh the reason why it's the biggest fud now some fintech dude wrote not bad the journal today um and he was like yeah bitcoin's first time this ransomware has been enabled and like everybody's just mentioned it's like this has been happening since the late 80s like you're you're wrong i think that matt odell talked about this in his podcast in a way it's good that they find out their systems are secured and have to pay like you know a large bug bounty rather than like having china and russia hiding in there secretly you know for like until you know so maybe it's kind of an expensive lesson in a way interesting that um the bitpay guys brought to my attention back like in i think like 2014 or

something when i was going to uh those meetups that stephen pair started was uh the idea where you put bitcoin on a super secure server this was also back when like bitcoin was like you know 100 bucks or whatever but you put bitcoin on your servers like where they're easily findable and then you know if they ever get stolen you know your computer's been compromised or something uh yeah i just got file well that's similar to like the theory that satoshi is an ai that created a bitcoin as a quantum computing alarm system since his his coins are in uh like just paid to public key you bring up a you bring up a a very great uh theory there i'm on board with that i i wouldn't even call it a conspiracy

Conspiracy theory, I'll just call it a conspiracy at this point. Right? Satoshi's coins move. Maybe an alarm bell that quantum computing is here. It's one of my favorites. John Newberry made me aware of that theory. I like that one. Something interesting that's come up to me just this week

was that core developers are not fanboys of the hashing of the public keys that get exposed so uh for those just a quick thing for the people a little less technical the you know pay to public key hash uh you know thing where where you know you you hash the public key and you're paying to a hash of a public key essentially and you know this this idea where you know you're you have a bitcoin address instead of paying to the public key and you know don't do address reuse hey and by the way this is awesome this is also quantum resistant because now you don't expose your public key you just expose the hash and when you spend it it's only a very short period of time between where it's in the mempool and then locked into

the blockchain that you can actually be um you know potentially quantum hacked or whatever and and i i've always heard that as one of the you know selling points for hashing the public key and pay the public key hash and stuff and and now with taproot we're completely getting away from that right so um i i think it's interesting and then peter while i uh on bitcoin stack overflow uh made his opinion very clear where you know public keys should be public and kind of you know it will freak out maybe if satoshi's coins get moved but really there's no reason to uh i love andreas but i think a lot of this is stuff that andreas said in like 2015 that like the core devs never said well i okay so i i want to say at one point in time i think they were on board with the

idea that hashing the public key maybe would make them future quantum proof you know whatever i and and wasn't the initial maybe at least for a time they were okay with that right but now that's definitely not the case right yeah if the quantum computer does come like we got bigger problems than bitcoin well it depends how big bitcoin is by then that's true because you know it's funny that that's that that was like a great talking point early days it's like you know the quantum computer question comes up a lot like as fun right and and legitimate or not the the answer that was very simple it's if quantum computers come around we got way bigger problems with bitcoin but now i'm thinking like shit 10 years later i'm like bitcoin's becoming pretty big and

important i you know another 10 years from now it's like you can't use that you can't you can't say you know we got bigger problems because you know bitcoin will be the money potentially for everything right so um that's when you got to prioritize it or prioritize like there are algorithms that i wouldn't say ready but they're out there right but i guess it's just like there's no point like rushing them and putting them in now right i guess everybody would need to like yeah yeah all the like quantum like quantum resistant cryptography right now is like pretty much crap in terms of space i think i saw an ico for it to do the research for it no like it's a quantum resistant blockchain you didn't buy into it was

it just me like every transaction is like a couple megabytes or something yeah i mean then you you pretty much have it right but that's those are like huge requirements that bitcoin doesn't have to deal with it right now yeah we came to talk uh gaming on the lightning network now we're stoking quantum thud that's fun to talk about this shit ah when's everybody getting to miami i'm not allowed out by my prime minister and not allowed in by your president what's going on over there man what's going on it's like the uk and canada i want to come break you guys free i mean we're not much better off in the northeast part of the country but at least there's i guess the dull thing is like all the freedom people left england to go to america right

so maybe you know um so that's probably part of it and i don't know it's weird because we have a conservative government but i'm gonna go down like a rabbit hole uk politics here you know but um but yeah it's strange because yeah like you you remember like tony blair probably he was yeah i'm in bush so he was labor which labor i would say is similar to your democrats but he wasn't like a proper old school democrat so you have like proper old school democrats who probably like like the working class except so we had the same thing with labor but then he changed them all kind of like a metropolitan party right i mean that's what the democrats are here yeah we have the same thing with labor but he was very very popular and you know because tony blair was

popular and since then in order to get back into power the conservative party basically became blair right party so they kind of to get elected so really they're a party who will get elected rather than having principles is what i'm saying so like what a conservative party should stand for i suppose is generally small government etc etc but to be fair i would say actually our prime minister i think at his heart he is quite for liberty and liberal but then we weren't going to lock down initially but the public demanded it to be fair so really it was actually from the public which is strange so in a way i don't blame the government too much because it wasn't like they were pressing the people the people were like hey why aren't you locking this

down italy is locked down that's kind of how it all started in my experience but it never ends man that's such a lame excuse well if the italians are doing it we have to do it man i'm really happy that america isn't like well the italians are doing it we have to do it well how it started like so we had a plan which was similar to sweden and even japan japan didn't lock down actually because they couldn't because americans basically wrote their constitution for them so they couldn't really lock down but they like advised people and for the most part people kind of followed the rules and were sensible but in england yeah we were following a similar plan and um heard you guys are allowed again sorry you guys are allowed to hug each other again

yeah that's crazy but yeah like our like chief scientist behind this a guy called nile ferguson he even said in an interview we didn't think lockdown was possible until we saw china do it and then we knew we could get away with it like literally verbatim he said that the guy with the models too was that now ferguson or was that right the dude who made the models and then like yeah he made the imperial model and here's the thing which he didn't get the press so he made the imperial model to be fair he's a scientist his job is to do the worst case scenario so i don't blame him for that but he actually broke lockdown to have an affair with a mistress and then like that was just like not picked up like we mentioned

it once in the news but but like he he resigned from his job and then got a new job basically working for a new secret government thing who found like all the new variants like the new indian variant and stuff so it's a bit weird but yeah doing research chris doing research yeah with this you know like like you know what i thought was funny is the montreal came out and i'm guessing maybe other places came out with how to do safe sex during covid what'd you say they were like advocating for glory holes yeah like like whoa like that and like hey make sure you face away from that person you know when you're having intercourse and like just try try dog instead of missionary and it's like wait whoa like hey to write that shit like that's my question like

i need that job because that's hilarious like you just must like sit around and like drink and like be high all day to come up with well you don't know if it's a troll or if they're being serious and it's published by like the government or something or like i don't know you have these government workers sitting in the room they're game steering like ah fuck man people are definitely still gonna have sex but we need to make sure they're doing it safely like let's brainstorm here whiteboard safest way to have sex without uh getting droplets on each other glory hole put it in the paper send it out to the public cut a hole in every wall actually say glory hole are you just being ridiculous i'm being dead seriously

i'm dying you're gonna have to start filling in all these holes after covid and lock up lock it's a job stimulate the economy somehow when you turn it let everybody back out yeah okay stimulate the economy by filling up the holes i got you okay you guys there's just so much sexual innuendo going on it's not innuendo it's very straightforward des i'll see you in miami yeah i'll be there monday i will not be there monday i wish it was getting there monday yeah i'm super excited that uh because there's so many bitcoiners in the city at one time there's all these events going on which is gonna keep everyone pretty occupied i i my only fear is because zebedee has such a big uh presence at uh at bitcoin 2021 that

i'm not going to be able to go out and see other things because of everything that's going on with our area you know and we might have the coolest area which which is good so at least uh people people come to you yeah we're gonna kidwell's gonna be hosting actually so tiktok's gonna be hosting what'd you say kidwell's gonna be hosting michael is kidwell is what they call me said well it's mike 20 i guess it's the name mike 21 why because uh speaking about halo 2 it's mike 20 mike 20 you know all these things were taken on xbox live i had to come up with something and it worked and i just use that for rest of my life so yeah yeah life story right there the gamer tag that never left got tagged

to me make sure to download zebedee wallet and get your gamer tag now yeah mine is des if anybody wants to send me sats d-e-s get the shills in what else do we need to show here download download zebedee on the zebedee wallet join the mint gox discord and the zebedee discord and follow us on where all the cool stuff is there not like all that even if you're not in person in miami you can still join the tournaments virtually but yeah discord to join and get in on this like 100 million sats of prizes yeah so we are streaming like the whole two days to our twitch to minkbox twitch so we're going to be doing like things that the audience can participate in remotely so the csgo servers are open 24 hours and i'm sure that we're gonna up the amount during

the conference because we have to give away a whole bitcoin we're going to have like quizzes and stuff which will give away sats um bitcoin rally tournaments we're going to have like uh sarah toby like my mobile game and jack from thunder games he's doing something so yeah even if you're not going to the conference you can still get involved i feel like we're going to make a lot of millionaires at this conference give away billions of sats to many many people i have a feeling get your ass to miami or get your ass on the discord and then the mink ox i'll see you freaks i'll see two of you in miami and chris you'll be missed it's always a pleasure peace and love freaks