TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #259: Bitcoin layer 3, empowering dissidents, and the power of the Lightning Network with Chase Perkins

Episode Date: June 15, 2021

Join Marty as he sits down with Chase Perkins, co-founder and CEO of Impervious.ai, to discuss: - Building a VPN that leverages Lightning Network routing nodes - Data transfer and user privacy on the Internet - Building an API that allows individuals to build privacy preserving apps that leverage Lightning - The second iteration of the Internet - Node management - much more Follow Chase on Twitter Check out Impervious Shoutout to this week's sponsors. Cash App. Start #stackingsats today. Use the promo code: "stackingsats" to receive $10 and contribute $10 to OWLS Lacrosse when you download the app. Lend at Hodl Hodl is a new non-custodial bitcoin backed lending platform, that allows peer to peer lending and borrowing between users, globally, anonymously & on your own terms. Create you offers & set your own terms on lend.hodlhodl.com Compass Mining. Compass wants to democratize bitcoins hashrate and give everyone the ability to strengthen the network while mining bitcoin profitably. Thanks to Compass, it’s never been easier to mine bitcoin. Check them out at compassmining.io Braiins. Braiins are leaders in the mining industry; running Slush Pool, creating firmware to make miners more profitable (Braiins OS+), and building out Stratum V2 to help further decentralize mining and make Bitcoin more robust. Check out their mining profitability calculator.

Ba-da-ba-ba-ba, I'm lovin' it. Just kidding, this isn't sponsored by McDonald's yet. We wouldn't feed you that industrial sludge. What's up, freaks? It's your boy Marty. Been here to introduce this episode of Tales from the Crypt. Back on the Bitcoin technical side, talking about Impervious.ai, which is a team building an API that allow individuals to build tools that leveraged the Lightning Network

to create data storage and transfer apps that compete with centralized data collectors like Facebook, VPNs, an expansive list of service providers, if you will. Layer 3. I think Impervious can easily be considered Layer 3. There's a budding Layer 3 on top of Bitcoin. And the Lightning Network.

I'm sure there's some on top of Liquid as well. Layered stack. It's getting built out, freaks. It's getting built out. And this is a really interesting project. Really interesting team. And they've got something that seems to work. They're launching their API in a couple weeks.

You guys will hear all about it in the episode. During which I interview the CEO, co-founder, Chase Perkins. This report was brought to you by our good friends at the motherfucking... helping you stack sets and sets receive sets sell sets if you so please we're saying sats sats sats sats sats sats sats sats i'm loving sats we're taking it from mcdonald's screw you ronald we're saying sats because sats for the standard is 100 million sats in one bitcoin you don't need to stack a whole bitcoin a fraction of bitcoin you could stack whole sats instead cash app makes that very easy you can dca in the sats you can set it and

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customizable mining reward splitting and best of all dark theme for 24 7 hash rate monitoring that's easy on the eyes follow slush underscore pool on twitter to see the announcement when the pool update goes live and enjoy this for it it feels like things are happening everybody's focused on defy defy defy but bitcoin in layers is starting to ingratiate itself integrate itself into the bigger larger internet stack enjoy freaks enjoy your day enjoy your life live it you only got one You've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free. When you talk about a Fed just gone nuts, all the central banks going nuts. So it's all acting like safe haven.

I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor. I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin. If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. What is up, freaks? Welcome back to Tales from the Crypt. Your boy, Marty Bent here on a lovely Monday morning, afternoon now where I am, morning where my guest is.

I'm sitting down with Chase Perkins, CEO of Impervious AI. Chase, what's going on, sir? Hey, good morning. Good afternoon, Marty. Thanks for having us on. You're on. I think I was saying we were having like a little pre-podcast. pow wow as tends to happen when we're about to record a podcast uh i was introduced to you by

desiree dickerson at uh lightning labs uh had a conversation with ryan gentry this morning about what you guys are building and and uh saw your presentation at bitcoin magazine uh or excuse me bitcoin 2021 hosted by bitcoin magazine it seems like you are building something extremely interesting leveraging the lightning network impervious like we were saying you're building a vpn but that's just one application of what you're building so i guess let's just jump into it totally and like what is impervious why did you guys build it and how are you leveraging yes so impervious is building like layer three of bitcoin like a programmatic layer like you were saying. So anyone can build on Lightning or Bitcoin and reap the benefits of censorship

resistant, surveillance resistant technology without necessarily understanding anything about Bitcoin or Lightning. So as we know, you know, programmatic money is just the beginning. So if you were to enable streaming micropayments, video, podcast, audio book presentations anything you can go peer-to-peer with kind of traditional application or service or from the ground up so yeah we're this programmatic layer and we're we're super excited about it like and i appreciate the plug from from des and and ryan at lightning they've been incredible and very supportive of us and you know they've really led the way of this elegant technology with that real-time layer two settlement layer you can do so much more

than just uh real-time uh settlement payments like you can enable this like peer-to-peer uh like cryptographically secure resilient censorship resistant communication channels like so yeah happy to discuss it yeah like i was saying we've talked about the idea of of having a VPN running through the Lightning Network for, it feels like a couple of years now, at least on Tales from the Crypt. I've had conversations, I've had conversations with other individuals

building on the Lightning Network and said, yeah, it's possible. And that's what you guys demoed at Bitcoin 2021 was this VPN. So I guess just to give the freaks out there a practical application of what you're building, how does the VPN work? Well, freaks,

you know, engage thrusters. So basically, we're using Lightning as a key send layer, a config credentialing layer, where once you establish configs or credentials between, say, me and Marty over the Lightning network, so we're using as a transport layer just for KeySend, we then can establish out-of-band, resilient, censorship-resistant, like cryptographically secure channels. So basically, for one humble Satoshi, you can open up and establish, okay, how are we going to chat off of Lightning? And then we stream peer-to-peer this out-of-band channel. And that can be used, it can be incorporated into anything or just be a standalone function so it's really powerful it protects basic it shields the sender and the

receiver so the broadcasting party and the receiver and obviously double encrypts uh it transport and it arrests the data so there's a lot of strategic and like tactical applications we're speaking with some really interesting parties it's about being able to access from behind hostile networks denied access areas and and uh basically surveyed networks where you know privacy and security is is is paramount so you're basically attempting to create a product and experience that gives users more peace of mind that their third-party vpn provider isn't a honeypot so the way i understand you guys are leveraging routing nodes to make this happen correct so so an individual will be able to pick routing nodes and different jurisdictions

to yeah and so that's one of them but we dynamically so basically like once a connection is established and it's ephemeral so um you know these these wormholes cryptographically between me and you um disappear in the ether once we're done chatting right so um we use lightning to establish credentials to say how are we going to chat we open an out of band uh channel and then uh when we're done chatting like that disappears there's no retroactive um you know inspection of those communications but that's that's just the start like again we're beneficiaries like of our own api what we're really excited about is um the impervious ai api which is like the like the sdk for um ios like uh early ios developers um you know using xcode this is

actually for brian murray craft this is how he how he said what we're doing back to us he's like you know early on you know everyone had to use a specific sdk that's what you are you're like the astro turf and um yeah so we're decided to basically again be layer three and let everyone start like ripping we think it's a moral imperative um you know intermediaries and gatekeepers are atrocious custodians of our data and it's unnecessary right so yeah so like beyond On the VPN, how do you see this progressing? How do you see people leveraging your API to build tools? How do they preserve your data when compared to storing it on the cloud

or trusting a Facebook or Twitter, whatever? Yeah, it's pretty cool. So we're working with everything from, like, I think you may have chatted with Justin Revzani, it's like end-to-end. We were chatting right before we hopped on now. So whether you're building from the ground up, a decentralized network um and justin and i you know we're gonna do they're gonna do great stuff

um and with impervious um to podcasts um we're working with a different social network um that live streams basically content to uh youtube and uh this way they could also toggle on almost like like only fans like toggle on for secure private paid um or just premium paywall like party to party you know peer-to-peer um working with publishers um and then just like for routine data transmission like if it doesn't have to be stored in perpetuity in the cloud it shouldn't be and as we know like we're saying intermediaries whether it's facebook google man department of justice um you know office of personal management the reality is um they're all vulnerable and susceptible to hacks and breaches and shouldn't just be sitting there so it's okay to use these

third parties it just what we're doing is shifting discretion and control and standardizing privacy and censorship resistant technology so like you know an existing application or platform or service can continue as is but um start building in capacity where they're basically less significant custodians and shifting that like streaming peer-to-peer when possible and like not holding any data that's not absolutely essential for their operations and so from a technical perspective at the lightning like you already explained key send and stuff like that so let's go back to like the vpn example how is alice leveraging the lightning network to send or to create a to spin up a vpn to use it as a vpn like how is she streaming sats

to routing nodes is so like hypothetically the way i understand it like a user could just say all right i'm going to do some web browsing that i would like to use a vpn for and they can just be like all right for the next 30 minutes i'm going to pick routing node and jurisdiction xyz routing nodes and jurisdictions xyz and flow my traffic through them and pay x amount of sets is that a correct representation yeah i think that's like part of um that's like one of the features right select your own routing nodes but if i think like metaphor helps and this happens to be a specific concrete example so um let's say alice and bob um let's say alice is in taiwan and one our goals is to develop um like redundant civilian communication uh network in taiwan so the parties

in taiwan uh can always send and receive information without fear of reprisal or recourse and in order to do that maybe they're choosing the nodes which they're going through or maybe alice is just saying hey i want to chat with bob now if you had a private network like pre-established before you're in taiwan that's less problematic because you already know who you're chatting to and trusting um but lightning enables you to in a trustless capacity establish this uh by key send back and forth between me and you between alice and bob they now have synced up and there's an out of band uh cryptographically secure uh channel and it's in its high bandwidth right and it's free so it only takes one humble satoshi to like ping back and forth and as long

as our credentials are in sync then we're just like an agreement to the form and capacity in which we're communicating out of band so it's it's pretty wild and it's like a natural so that's why we're jumping all the way to fighting tyranny right the shadow of the ccp um and let's double back on uh like kind of the moral imperative there and um an information warfare and information dominance because that all ties back into kind of our use cases yeah and and so with that one set send like is it just obviously it's key sense so it's sending a message where the message say like here is the the here's the way in which we're engaging that's right so you then and then you're just using uh through ssh ftp just raw internet and you're establishing the channel

which to communicate and that that out of band channel is cryptographically secure so that so basically the key send establishes credentials uh peer-to-peer connectivity and then we just go straight peer-to-peer so like impervious lightning no one can see what's happening out of band and no nefarious third-party hostile actor or um a party surveying and um does that make sense yeah no totally makes sense and and so it seems like impervious is an idea that you've been thinking about working on for quite some time yeah was it lightning that made you comfortable to go build this stuff or yeah well lightning was it was definitely the catalyst where we've been thinking a long time like um my team so me um mark steitz and colin crossman the founders of impervious ai

had all been working on this in various capacities and had known each other professionally through different circles and we linked up um around i guess january 21 um it was clear that like we had a clear go to action and like mark our cto he was a cryptographer from the air force and decades of dod and ic experience building networks everything from like our infrared satellite networks, to like leading red teaming, to signals intelligence, to like target package workup. So he'd been thinking about how to protect and exploit networks for a very long time. And I've been working on it from a different angle, from a data privacy component. And when we linked up and turned out his thesis at Harvard and his graduate thesis was like

like fault-tolerant federated cloud computing with basically, I don't want to say proposing lightning, but it was definitely via Bitcoin. What would that look like if you had a real-time, basically, like key send layer? And I'm paraphrasing a little bit because he used his own terminology, but we had all been thinking about this, and then we figured out how to do it and hit the ground running. And, like, in, you know, in 30, 60 days, we had our prototype up. We had, like, stuff running. we built the vpn on the api and we're like oh my god it's real and then we really started riffing

right like so we tweeted at um lightning labs um using um using lightning as a transport layer so this is like with a vpn you're mostly out of band right you're showing key send to then establish an out-of-band connection but you can also do it um over if it's below i guess 356 354 bytes you can do it in band right uh on chain and so we started tweeting at lightning have you ever seen someone use uh lightning uh as a transport lighter tweet and like what no and then ryan you know reached out and and we kind of hit the ground running from there and got a lot of support and and it helped kind of shape the vision and really kind of bring it to fruition really quickly Preston Pysh , So why lightning and not some other

like blockchain application or your own? Yeah. So I, you know, I think it depends on the application. So like step one, first of all, we're big Bitcoiners, like we're all actually relatively early Bitcoin miners. So we already like believe in the technology it's established to be compute and obviously payment on built into the rails of bitcoin isn't um just like a feature it's it's tantamount to be able to punch through to survey and hostile control networks like you can create this wormhole it's cryptographically secure channels because of bitcoin and because of lightning so um you know in in the simplest sense that you could start over but why reinvent the wheel right it's already

there we're already on board let's stand on the shoulders backs of giants right and and keep going Yeah. I mean, it makes sense, right? Like everybody's like, oh, we need our own blockchain for all these applications. Like, I'm not so sure. I think like the stacked layered approach makes sense and it's good. It's just. Well, yeah. So when you think about like Ethereum or like Filecoin, you know, it's parties and other protocols have tried to push large amounts of data right through the blockchain before but like obviously if every time you go to use it it's expensive it um it breaks it's congested it's slow like that's not a viable alternative for like practical applications no and then you're just fracturing the network effect on

top of that as well it's like another thing like like how how important is the network effect of the network you're building on like how many people can scale to it's arguable you can make the argument that you're going to want to be building all this stuff in layers on bitcoin just for the network effect alone if you want your stuff to to get in the hands of people you definitely and you know it also aligns with our ethos of um you know i sound money's great again huge bitcoiners um but you know what good is economic empowerment without freedom of speech without freedom of thought um which i think it all aligns um and that's why it's a natural iteration like they can be one in the same and we'd like to build on that instead of having separate systems

right one achieving some money one achieving sound mind i'm like no no it's just like fairly good and yeah you guys are proving that bitcoin should not be pitch and hold has digital gold or some store value loan like that again this is a meme that's been getting more popular uh i think ross stevens and michael saylor's conversation then jack miller's as well leaning into this like the asset versus the network and especially the network in a layered fashion and the lightning network and what it can do like what like the potential of this network to change the interactions what impervious is focused on is making sure that the interactions secure freedom freedom of speech freedom of thought freedom of autonomy in the digital age

like what absolutely just talking about the vpn now but like what crazy applications is this going to enable in your mind yeah i mean so so look um if you think about jack ma let's take a step back like the way i usually say it um you know whether it's matters of war and peace um public safety and public health, governance, when it's most critical that we can express dissent and participate in society or challenge a public narrative or consensus. When it's most essential that we can participate is when it's most likely that we're to be censored,

deplatformed, vested parties are gonna intimidate. And like, this is all wrapped into like a much deeper and darker, I think, trend of cultural Marxism where like, you know, using force and intimidation to get your way, where you're basically attacking centers of power. And ultimately it doesn't matter if your argument or your vision or what you're working on

makes sense or is best or is rational, because like ultimately, you know, if you can obtain the power center, you can retroactively legitimize yourself, which is like the same as every despot and two bit, you know, conqueror and warlord in history, you know? And so, like, you know, just for a real world example, like, you know, Jack Ma, wealthiest guy in China, definitely the wealthiest guy in the history of modern China. You know, he ran afoul of the parties that be.

He's got all the resources in the world, most powerful technology companies that they, critical to their infrastructure, I think it's fair to say, and society. And, like, you know, he was muzzled. He was muzzled. Has anybody seen Jack Ma? yeah i don't know if they've seen him the last couple weeks but i know in the last week they've continued dismantling his empire and uh they're now distributing it to quote trusted parties um so you know they're nationalizing or distributed and and they're making an example out of them and i'm like look i mean it almost be like you know if if if the mafia like old school

mafia were to like conquer italy and um and let's say that like they were pretty good at doing certain things right like wine and cheese is going well and exports are going well and the people are like you know from a macro perspective collectively on average doing better than they were and people are like well this is great and isn't this kind of a form of capitalism and you're like wait wait wait um that's all well and good until you question them right as long as you act yes to parties that be and it's all gets back to like bitcoin and jack ma and it's like this is without anyone's permission right like it's imperative to have sound mind um and and also have a cryptic cryptographically secure record um you know so when we talk about censorship building censorship

and surveillance resistant technology people oftentimes think of like censorship resistance as like binary like you know you can either speak freely or not speak at all but like um ccp is like far more nuanced um while they sometimes do use sledgehammers and like you know more overt tactics like they will um retroactively modify group chats to favorably represent um or more favorably represent communications from uh yeah historically how you said or portrayed something i was like whoa whoa whoa this is way way darker than people realize that's like gaslighting like did i write this like you get oh yeah it's like you're taking crazy pills right like like i said every everyone who's ever tried to use brute force to legitimize their position you know retro or i should say

retroactively can do that and and obviously with artificial intelligence and their massive information dominance um they're in a position to do that always like shift things in a slightly more favorable light to whatever they're willing to tolerate and i was like well this is this is really dark and the reality is if we don't default to secure this is what i'm talking about cutting out intermediaries it's not just like a you know like an f the man like i mean there's a little bit of that okay there's a lot of that but the reality is like when some when you're relying on a third-party custodian like you don't have discretion control over how it's used or manipulated and so you know bitcoin can allow and then via real-time streaming peer-to-peer

this secure authentic legitimate and like uncorruptible version of truth and reality and and like if we don't build this like things are going to i think get um they'll they'll deteriorate much further before they get better if they ever can and if we want our digital reality to reflect our physical reality in any meaningful way like this has to be like a deliberate step and the technologies here. Like I said, like, we can't take full credit, right? We're developing a natural iteration of what already exists, this incredible distributed compute and code and trusted layer. That's happens to be trustless. So yeah, we're

super, super safe. Yeah. So let's dig into that, like the actual data transfer, and then storage or lack of storage. So how does it work compared to like, like, leveraging impervious as API? Sure. Is the data stored on a routing node? Is it completely ephemeral? Is it obviously it's encrypted within the network, within the communications channels,

and then on the endpoints, I would imagine, and then like, so there's the data only accessible due to key sense. So like you're using lightning network as a quasi, like you're using node identities to be able to access data that's being shared on the network. Is that how it works or? So yeah, I think there were two different ideas there. So if you're using, so again, we go back to the API level layer

and the API provides discretion into how you would like to and in what capacity use Lightning or Bitcoin and streaming peer-to-peer. So like you may host on AWS, your conventional social network or publishing or podcast, you know, or video broadcast, but all AWS would see, and this is just one example, is that there is a lightning channel um basically uh opened to aws and then there's a virtual

machine running on it if this is an example of how someone might think from a technical level how to incorporate this so uh aws would just see okay there's there's encrypted traffic and they wouldn't know who it is or how or why um you know there's a little bit more there but the reality is um where it's stored and how it's stored is is is still up to the developers but it allows for let's say whether that's live or whether you um after the fact storage store it somewhere you're streaming peer-to-peer for the duration of that connection and then the ap and the the vpn is an example of that ephemeral real-time connection where you can broadcast send and receive and as long as you have a satoshi it's like wire guard tour blue wallet

mashed together like an incentivized tour um to ensure this cryptographically secure channel you can broadcast and send so the vpn is a specific example but like we see you know i don't want to like it's like telling an artist like how to put bounds on streaming because it's streaming micropayments streaming video it's streaming like you know it's on the rails like And the broadcaster can determine the scale and the rate and the cost. So what's really cool, so for once, Satoshi bouncing back and forth, let's say just using API for not the VPN, but just the API for peer-to-peer streaming on a platform. You're the broadcasting party.

People think peer-to-peer, they tend to think one-to-one, but that ratio can be one-to-50, one-to-10,000, one-to-50,000. It's scalable. It just means that there's no intermediary, but you're still from the broadcasting party to the receiving party and it's so that's why it's so mind-bending people are like oh well peer-to-peer doesn't work i was like well peer-to-peer scalable that can be in peril so you can be broadcasting right now every single one of your listeners peer-to-peer with no intermediary you know no itunes no youtube or an equivalent you know decentralized version so yeah

that's how we're never that way i always thought of peer-to-peer as one-to-one like one thousand It's still one-to-one, but it can be gigabit, right? You are streaming in parallel to all 50,000 of your listeners. They're all still getting Marty time, one-on-one, and there's no one in between, but you're also in parallel talking to everyone else. Yeah. It's fascinating. And again, sticking on the data, so how would one attack this?

I would want to try to get impervious AI users' data. They would need the private key of the node, correct? Right. So you're not going to break the curve cryptography, right? So we're minimizing the attack vector. It's not that there aren't ways to exploit. And that's why I was like, you still need sound engineering. But it provides discretion and control.

So, all right, if we take a step back and we think of like telecoms, right? So there are common carrier laws that say that telecoms, AT&T, Verizon, whomever, if you call a phone number, they have to connect end to end, right? Like there is a one phone number to another, and it used to be, you know, physically,

there used to be operators like taking out wires and plugging in and connecting end to end, line to another right now it's digital but under common carrier law if um if one phone calls another they have to connect it regardless of who they are or for what purpose what pretext um and so but on our digital reality we have now moved to this preemptive prior restraint pretext for surveillance and interference in society where well you don't want to enable this conduct or what if they said something bad or said something we disagree with and this party and say you're the hosting part uh platformer party and they're like you know you're now an enabler or you know

essentially um facilitating this behavior i'm like well at t is not facilitating behavior by the way if you break if you break the law um over the phone you actually are violating a number of additional laws um so like you're not abdicated of um like civil and criminal liability just because you're using secure communication and a lot of people but they want to use this brute force mentality this prior restraint of like yeah but what are you going to use it for i'm like stop it like the michael jordan uh you know gif like get some help like well they are trying to uh that's the thing they're like oh bitcoin's used by criminals that's always my go-to example like criminals speak with each other on the phone you don't do

wait till they hear about money right or or phones like and there's nothing stopping us from like sitting in our like living room and like conspiring to do something terrible and even then it's it's just really funny because um you know and i was speaking to a party i don't want to out them because they ended up becoming a friend and and we're working with them but let's say a hyper affluent um hedge fund guy um who was like look this is great i love it but we all know how are you going to push back when they come for your heads when they say hey everyone knows you only need privacy if you're you only need true privacy like hard encryption if you're doing something wrong and you know i obviously did not see eye to eye with that

um and i was like but that's why i like the china example the ccp specific example of like it's it's not just um first of all it's not your business what i'm doing but it's also this like non-binary manipulation where perhaps you would like your message delivered exactly as intended like literally the game telephone remember as a kid playing telephone yeah whisper down the lane telephone whenever maybe whenever people yeah i was always the worst i always because it's like you got to mix it up you got 30 kids in a circle and you say something and by the time it you know arrives to the last person it does not resemble the original you know message um you know and you'd think we would learn from that game because as we rely and provide discretion to intermediaries

what's really happening is each layer of the tech stack is really serving as a choke point for freedom of speech and expression and um yeah the electronic frontier foundation actually has a great article. It's free speech, beyond parlor and the tech and the tech stack. And it really addresses the reality of like, just like I was speaking to like, Alex from Human Rights Foundation, right? Like, they were victims of parties aggressively pursuing DMCA takedown notices. And, and this is something I saw a lot practicing law, which is like, the reality is um this is this this'll this'll be mind-bending i think for most people there are that we know of at least um five billion with a b dmca takedown notices per month per month and so like you know

to the listeners like you know you go to youtube and uh you see a video has been taken down because there's some alleged copyright violation or use of a song without permission what people don't realize is like it's relatively there's free software and templates online where you just fill it in and you can either crawl the internet you have to search it and for a keyword like marty bent and you send that right or you can uh target an individual and you can just distribute and send these pre-formed what appear to be legitimate dmca takedown requests and one of the crazy things with the dmca the way it's written is that it provides notice to the platform or party that intermediary that's receiving it that they are now on notice potential that they

are potentially um incurring criminal liability for violation of federal copyright law and you know at the beginning of movies where it's like you know 10 years yeah yep yeah it's i mean these are people don't realize like federal copyright law is like heavy right like they're trying to extradite kim.com primarily on that basis i mean there's additional there are additional charges And I don't want to speak to specifics of the case, but so if you're a platform or service provider and you receive thousands or hundreds of thousands of these per month, you have to quickly, you have to make a policy internally. And usually that policy looks like this and each party is different.

If we receive what appears to be a mildly credible or possibly meritorious DMCA takedown notice um do we want to go to the mat protecting this user and spending time and resources on this particular user and account or we prefer to just remove the content suspend the account or take whatever action you find appropriate so you can say my hands are washed right very conscious pilot and like and the reality is and you do feel for the platforms because even if in this capacity where even if they wanted to start from that position it is a difficult position if you're receiving lots of potentially notice of incurring for facilitating violation of federal copyright law. So it's, but it's, it's become a very effective tool for censorship and control.

Matt O'Dell contributes at least four DMC, DCMA takedowns a month with a Citadel dispatch. He puts a song on the end of everyone and he never pays for the copyright. Yeah, exactly. And it's incredible. And so it's a very effective mechanism. So whether it's DMCA takedown notice, or whether it's just an arbitrary change of policy, or perceived violation of terms of service, like the analogy I give, and that was in my talk was like, look, our digital infrastructure is like, if you're renting a car, you're driving on the road, they think you're running late. instead of sending you a notice and saying hey you're going to receive a late fee you need to return the vehicle and escalate accordingly they just remote kill your car in the middle of traffic right like that's what our digital infrastructure looks like these third-party intermediaries and gatekeepers we rely on there's a violation of terms of service or perceived violation terms of service if there's a policy change if there's a dmc takedown notice they just remote kill without

the ability to contest or arbitrate and god forbid you may have a different uh position or may would like to contest or you would like time to migrate to a new platform or service yeah no they'll just take you down it's crazy it's a much more efficient way of doing like why have a conversation when you can just just stop it use the hammer right and like now i'm just thinking always like how lightning fixes this too like instead of even going through that dcma or dmca keep forgetting yes whatever it is yeah like it may imagine if hopefully we transition to a world where it's like more independent artists and they're getting more of the money it's like cheaper to produce and distribute content now than ever before in history but hypothetically

like again with streaming stats with sphinx and stuff like that like once you add a video it's like all right send two percent that's two or whatever whatever percentage it needs to be to pay for this this content um that's right and i think that's where this started from on that diatribe was that like if you as the broadcaster can determine it's one satoshi a minute or a second or whatever you'd like to set it to it also empowers right the parties and it provides like full discretion control. And so it provides both like a financial mechanism, but also a technical mechanism, where I think for platforms or services, whether it's like a sub stack or that wants to, you know, build into their ethos, we don't want to be the parties dictating,

you know, and controlling what's being written and spoken. Or whether you're like a YouTube, ultimately, I think they should all have a mechanism where they're like, look, if the broadcasting party decides to toggle on peer-to-peer, like that's out of our hands. You know, and Fireside Chat's doing some really cool stuff. Fallon, shout out to Fallon. She's a friend of mine and her co-founder's Mark Cuban. They're doing some really cool stuff. And that's in the works where you can toggle on peer-to-peer.

So you're broadcasting, you know, to your typical audience via YouTube, via Instagram and Facebook. but also like maybe you're in an area or part of the world where what a party has to say would be frowned upon and you don't want that associated right so this is with a chilling effect but maybe you would like the ability to consume to send and receive information and so like fireside or or you know marty's listeners might decide like for this like i'm going to toggle on and maybe it costs a dollar maybe it's just free and it's just one satoshi back and forth but it allows parties to know they can always send and receive information right they can always get there and

it's at your discretion like we're saying it doesn't abdicate responsibility it's not like a magic universe like hey look that's on you and that's something we say a lot too like again like you said doesn't abdicate responsibility if you're going to do illegal things uh like you you probably will get accosted by uh the the enforcers who are sent to reprimand you for doing those illegal things but it's just the the way in which these platforms particularly on the internet are set up now it's just like all right cut everything off at the head and it just completely reduces everything to like a hammer instead of like actually having authorities do like good detective work and good follow-up to attack individuals that are doing the

crimes instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater which is what the policy is now it's definitely the policy and this goes back to the example of saying about cultural markets marxism of just like using force which is ultimately even the parties like platforms and service providers or institutions that might start from a good position or at least a defensible one you know like that will all get eroded at the edges as long as there are mechanisms to silence and you'll be attacked and you'll be questioned and your policies will become increasingly narrow of what you tolerate because everyone knows that actually we're going to hold you responsible for what your content creators are saying or doing on your platform or what how people are using it

and like you know and that's one of the things that like scares me about like self-driving cars like god forbid i violate apple's terms of service and i'm like stuck on the 405 right it's like minority report really coming true that was like one of the most illuminating parts of that movie is when he gets in the autonomous car and just drives him to a place where he doesn't want to be that's right and everyone sees that right and i think you know obviously like society and geopolitics like our social construct reflects the reality and everyone knows that like if you can use hammers if you can pressure and disparage if you can use magic words you can throw spaghetti against the wall and see what sticks like

something will and you can just like attack it and concentrate and I was like look I think like the reality is like right now we are drafting the equivalent of the federalist papers for our digital reality and you know federalist papers listeners right were the inspiration for and the foundation for uh the constitution and the structure of government was discussed and so it's one of the coolest things about the federalist papers by the way side note is that um you know when people say oh just like the the hyper affluent dude who's like you only need privacy if you're doing something wrong i go well like let's not forget that they were all published pseudo anonymously right like madison was publius right like hamilton was whatever someone else and like

so they're all having this public debate on the merits on the issues specifically it's not like human nature has changed in the last 250 years right like specifically to prevent ad hominem attacks on them because everyone's name and reputation and associations and affiliations It's easier to attack that then have an intellectual intellectually honest conversation on substance and they knew that back then. So, you know, the foundation for it and you kind of look at, you know, Satoshi right like there, there's a time and a place. and i think that right now we are establishing those constructs because like our rule of law and or just the things we take for granted haven't reflected well in our digital uh infrastructure and um you know it's imperative that we don't just like nod along until oh like we're in a dystopia yeah around the world that's i think it's hard for people to grasp how early we are in this

digital age too oh yeah like so what would you say like if these are technologies that god forbid uh technologies that are going to be here for the foreseeable future into perpetuity if you will sure like your or super volcano like i'm at like just going with the something that humanity persists so this is like one of my favorite things to discuss actually which like you know i can't go to china anyway so like with the ccp um you know if they were to have their way and continue just like extrapolate on like the current trajectory that they're on right of information dominance and control manipulation and being able to retroactively retrospectively alter uh records like once we have like deep neural brain implants or once we have any type

of augmentation or even if it's just a prosthetic and like the lowercase piece sense of like we're just more increasingly relying on external data sources like if you can manipulate that you can manipulate reality and like so if you win like if that you go out 50 100 150 250 years and if like ultimately you know that as long as you control and you information dominance you know any battle today is tactic tactical because ultimately you can retroactively not just legitimize but reconstruct reality so people don't you know like the old remember 300 where they were like i'm not just going to kill you like i'm going to erase your name from existence like that's actually what's happening yeah yeah the man i can't stop thinking of the matrix will just end up as like

uh energy sources and pods in this yeah uh vr world yeah and i mean it has happened in history too right like the library of alexandria right they say like the nile river was black because of all the ink of of everything we're not the nile was it the nile i don't know what i think or maybe it's the phrase no whatever yeah i mean it's the same idea right like if you can go to the record and what's more efficient like if they can control one point whatever i want to butcher 1.4 1.6 billion people um you know it's not that much more difficult to scale that out to seven especially over a longer timeline or 9 billion or whatever 11 and i think you know it's possible we could have parallel realities i like to think we'll ultimately win i think we've seen such

gross malfeasance and abuse on their end that people will have an evisceral reaction and i think we will make take concrete steps to hopefully and it's not central power controlled by any nation state um because we know how that might end up but i think that like we're in a trend in that direction where hopefully you know if we're going to learn any lesson from history it's um look what happens when you have information dominance control and can all end that we worked everything we worked so hard for in a society in an instant so i like to think that that will win out um you know i know blaji thinks that like um man i'm actually a big fan of his uh that china may be a centralized model that could possibly survive in parallel i mean

it's it's when i say survive i don't mean i just meant like their current information dominance model yeah and i like to i think we could like reverse that trend but it's going to take like a very deliberate effort and so we're coming in hot yeah no i mean to reverse that trend you need tools right arguably the first three four decades of the internet's been around where we want to pinpoint its inception we haven't had the correct tools until again like the original architects of the internet had this idea this payment layer that wasn't able to be brought to market until bitcoin launched now it's here now we have these tools that will enable hopefully these digital experiences and products that respect individual liberty in the digital age you know

yeah and you bring up an interesting point um and when we say like individual like liberty we often talk as a society about um you know inclusion and tolerance and diversity but like what about diversity of thought and um and the greatest minority which is the individual i didn't turn coin that phrase by the way um and you know i think it was scalia that said um who taught my con law class separation powers course so like i'm gonna plug him kind of shamelessly but like Like, you know, he even said, look, the purpose of the Constitution ultimately was to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. And when we lose the tolerance for dissent, right, for individual thought that may not conform with the consensus, it gets really dangerous really quickly. And like, this is a way to ensure we have that. And obviously, that's how you create like a perverse society.

i don't think anyone wants to live in like a uniform maybe someone does and they have great incentives to to further it but um you know as we know like like at world war ii like in history like sometimes the most technologically advanced societies can be the most ruthless like technological advancement does not necessarily equate to wisdom um or tolerance in fact it can just be a far more efficient tool to further arbitrary policies or agendas so that's arguably what's been happening for the last couple decades uh we have all this technology and you could make the argument that society is dumber than ever oh absolutely i mean i think we missed the the greatest um lessons from world war ii or maybe we knew him for a little bit but here we are again um

what are those lessons so basically um that technological progress does not uh equate wisdom and that suppression of individual thought and and uh the individual is is really dangerous and attacking people that may not fall in line with an agenda so like you know berlin in world war like right before world war ii was arguably like the most economically scientifically um culturally artistically advanced um city on earth it was like paris plus london plus new york you know you had the prussian academies you had like really advanced hard sciences you had um great composers like there was a lot happening and so like if we think we're just going to like create a more technologically advanced civilization and that it will you know the good

will come of it like we completely missed the boat and then like all those millions of lives that were lost and lost like horrifically and unnecessarily um you know will be in vain because it'll happen all over again and i hope it doesn't and i think that like you know doesn't mean we don't need a few wake-up calls but i think we're seeing it and uh yeah i i don't want us to miss the boat no i think the wake-up calls are here and i think more and more people are like all right where the hell is that boat we need to we need to because it isn't it's imperative i would argue it's imperative impervious is an imperative that's right um i think so man and i think what you're furthering and i think your podcast and and like the intellectual like discussions are

essential and you know in part with impervious you know it shouldn't require like leaving your cushy job like we we did and like put your middle fingers up uh to start a free speech censorship and surveillance resistant technology company in order to not give a fuck it really shouldn't require that um but we've as a society moved to a place where like um well uh we were using lawful conduct as a pretext for surveillance and um censorship and control and i was like whoa whoa these are all just like funny mechanisms to like undermine privacy to circumvent the constitution and due process and like you know because when something terrible happens the first question is congress asks like what could have been done to prevent this and while there may

have been credible things like you said like just good police work like you know depositions and testimony and investigations existed before the internet um you know the reality is that um we increasingly find fringe reasons to conduct if not real-time surveillance enable a great rewind button to um to then retroactively um you know speak to what was occurring and like i think if like stop using lawful conduct as like a pretext for surveillance like you know the uh the bank secrecy act is one of the great evils we ever passed and obviously we see the uh we see that um further progressing with a proposal of the regulatory proposal irs where uh reporting real time bank account balances um deposits and withdrawals and i'm like wait this is like far

outside the capacity um historically or lawfully of um like police powers and regulatory powers and and authority. And there was a case, you know, where Scalia, again, dissented, was a vigorous dissent, which was on the border, the ability to collect DNA of parties that have been detained in perpetuity, even if they are not charged with a crime. And so, you know, if you're within three miles of the border, you're held temporarily and swabbed and uh the state now in perpetuity has your genetic composition uh and they say hey this is important for identifying but like guess what like that's far outside the traditional uh policing powers and you're literally saying we are going to keep your genetic information on file just in case

maybe without your consent and without you being even prosecuted or found guilty it's just it's so bizarrely terrible and um yeah that's that's the path we're on well it sounds like guilty until proven innocent right like all this data collection is under that pretense is that correct yeah yeah pretense and pretext like whatever you can justify like we're starting not using harm reduction hypotheticals to justify surveillance uh proactive measures but guess what like you know again lessons we apparently haven't learned in the last 200 years um i thought we learned the hard way there are always disfavored um classes and parties in society less favored disfavored um whether that's a religious class whether that's an ethnic group whether that's

like socioeconomic whether it's what state or region you're from or country like every single one of us at some point in the last 200 years would have been a disfavored party and we cling to whatever the soup du jour of acceptable notion of decency is and and everyone else is there for like it's justifiable to you know it's crazy like and you know and when we see the you know the resist resist movement against um you know the state and police brutality it's like that's great we should however let's not embolden and provide additional mechanisms to then use the power of the state to treat people disproportionately poorly i was like whoa oh well we're missing the boat that's right it's like when bane takes over from batman and like the whole oh it totally it's

like let's do it and then like you get like the trials and it's just complete chaos and you're you're just turning into the monster that you're you're trying to destroy at that at that point absolutely and i think people are just you know we're by definition like life is short we try to accumulate whatever knowledge or some people do before death but like the reality is that like um we delude ourselves into thinking that we're we now know what's decent i was like are you kidding are you are you joking like everyone who has ever existed thought they knew what was decent but you're going to treat anyone who doesn't agree with you differently and i was like oh my god that's part of the beauty of bitcoin right is like it is this amoral dumb

protocol and similar with lightning hopefully it reserves the properties that morality isn't isn't thrust on the network the network has no moral judgment on what's going on and then we can we can figure that out and meet space as this protocol just works absolutely and you know it's crazy, like watching politicians get very worked up over their inability and the rules. Chase, I lost you. Yeah, my internet's still working.

Uh-oh. I lost Chase here on my end. He's frozen. Yeah, he fell off. wait for him to get back on great conversation though hope you guys are enjoying it um

yeah I'm pervy to say hi it seems pretty fucking dope yep here he's coming back in you're back but I can't hear you hey sorry about that man there you are I was just I was just

ad-libbing there for a little bit while you were gone I'm not saying anything for impervious but let's get back to the point you're making what we were talking about um yeah i was just saying that like every time politicians want their heat right they control it which of course is a threat right to their to the power structure and it's a threat to them and it makes them impotent and useless and so they then do the classic ad hominem reputation attack which is increasingly hilarious because like it's like i don't know if they're delusional or like obviously they're trying to inform the parties

that don't have the best interest or aren't already informed because like like it's just code like it doesn't care and i think we're gonna see some pretty comical examples like you know we're seeing i mean we're already seeing them right like elizabeth will learn about the energy is like it's all how do you think she's going to respond to the volcano right she won't have a response she won't have a response right collectively uh she'll selectively choose when she criticizes that's right um or yeah or she'll just lie as they as they why defend your position when you can just yeah you just lie and remain a u.s senator yeah um it's much it's far more convenient yeah should we talk about the volcano i'd love to hear your thoughts yeah i'm

excited for it um yeah the craziest thing is over the weekend i had people tweeting at me because we talked about a rabbit hole recap but apparently like legitimately like we were like we now have an economic incentive to reduce the potential for like super volcano eruptions because the way you do that is you would poke all the release pressure and hopefully cool down the the magma uh part of like the magma calder um to reduce the pressure and therefore probability of an eruption so like If it would poke holes, get this geothermal energy, turn it into Bitcoin, it could profitably reduce the chance for super volcano eruptions and planet destruction, which is pretty crazy. Incredible. I think it was Scientific American. Now, there's nothing now. There's a few things scientific about Scientific American now, which is so sad because it's for a long time was America's longest running uninterrupted publication.

but they did have something interesting a few years ago on super volcanoes and the mechanism behind it and like the cavity that's like so under yellowstone like basically it's just a different mechanism but I do think that like the reality is like we're just beginning to touch geothermal like everyone would think Iceland and they'd say oh okay like you know but that's isolated to Iceland and you know other you know abstract non-replicable places but like Central South America and Africa and a lot of the world Southeast Asia has a very active and so here are my thoughts though like so I think Jack Mahler got a got a softball from Desiree that like Jack if you're listening like love to talk about this you know you're doing awesome

stuff so definitely not criticizing i am very thrilled um but she you know desire was like what what are your what are your thoughts on like the killer application of um of bitcoin and of lightning and he's like well i think this is the killer application i was like well okay to go full circle like yes sound money's fine but we can't just like send money back and forth to each other until like we fix the world like there's all these other abuses of data right and what i would like to see if you want a real revolution but i'm not sure how much the powers of the central south america will be into it i would like to see over time the effect that bitcoin has on kind of the grip of various if not totalitarian then possibly uh uh historically if not corrupt then the less

and sound uh practices where like hey like are you going to inadvertently like from like a new economic theoretical model like will economic liberty lead to freedom of speech and empowerment and i think if the mechanisms there i do think that's the natural progression just like with the united states like once you know whether it's the pilgrims or anyone like once you flee the powers that can oppress and you have a mechanism and i think i think once parties realize that you can do so much more than just payments uh you know freedom of thought you can conquer you can occupy a home you can occupy territory but you can't conquer a free mind and so like it is a threat it's a it's a threat to centralized authorities and governments um and you know it's just another

reason that like china may tolerate bitcoin mining well i guess on any given day may or may not but like it is a threat and it should be and i would i'm interested to see that like hopefully we can get far enough with some of these uh you know volcanic tapping mining operations and start with economic prosperity and it can lead to like free people that are like resilient and like you know uncomfortable that's what i would love to see me as well that's why it's i mean again you have to get the tools that can build out that future into people's hands so i think bitcoin mining obviously base layer that is a tool plug in a miner access this free open monetary system but yeah network grows build lightning lightning certainly get that into

people's hands you can leverage bitcoin in much different fashion than you can on chain then like what you guys are doing on top like let's build this developer stack that allows them to build tools that cannot be censored and cannot be stopped and then you couple that with like the p2p transaction layer the innovations that are happening there like in brazil i think it was the state of latin america the satoshi.radio team uh creating transaction relay networks that allow you to bounce transactions off the moon so you don't have to depend on internet service providers It seems like the tool set's being built out. Would you agree? I would agree. And I think that, like you said, it's not nascent technology,

but we're at the early stages of the consequences of the side effects. And it's really, really exciting. We're right there. Yeah. You can fix this. Bitcoin can fix all of this. It's okay. But it takes work, right? Everybody's like, oh, Bitcoin's like a dumb rock. It's like, no. That's right. Well, that's why, like, narrative matters. Like, so, you know, and I said at Bitcoin 21 that, like, when I say that we're creating a new standard, I mean that as in, like, the next time there's a leak, the next time there's a hack, the next time your data is shared without your permission, the next time it's compromised. just know that like those parties and intermediaries and platforms like they were they weren't just negligent i think they were grossly negligent because they are aware of and as long

as people make clear that like hey that didn't have to happen it was unnecessary except for you chose to keep the data to exploit it and sell it and use it for ad targeting or to monitor to share it or data control or create walled gardens but like it didn't need to be that way to achieve your alleged purpose or function or feature of the app. And I think once people, I think the tolerance, as long as we clarify the narrative of like, that didn't need to happen, what are you going to do about it? And then hopefully the free market helps where other parties actually take a proactive stance. And we are talking to companies that are like, geez, if nothing else from the risk mitigation component, if you can take a target off our back and differentiate us,

that's awesome so it's funny because like that resonates with c-suite of some very large institutions right yeah i don't want that problem i don't want the potential of a leak on my conscience or in my business risk that's right and and just think about like especially for international conglomerates or everything's digital where if you're streaming around the world you know instead of having to how many intermediaries are there between you and a party consuming it in china right or you know russia or iran and there are so many layers or mechanisms that can allow censorship and selective enforcement and favored treatment and disfavored treatment and it's like god if you could just like always stream peer-to-peer it provides you

a mechanism to know that like if it was received which it should be um it will be uncorrupted and then you can and everybody could be happy like the marketers could be happy and all that they just have to engage peer-to-peer and say, hey, are you willing to share this data with me? He's like, yeah, give me a few sets so you can get this data and you can start pushing it that way. That's interesting. Absolutely. Yeah. It will definitely change the model and I think economic incentive. But again, I think it's going to empower and create a whole, just like, what was it? There was some survey, I don't know how scientific it was, but of kids in in middle school it's like what do you want to be when you grow up in a disproportionate number

of people percentage or like youtube celebrities and instagram and um you know right now that's like an ads model and but like what if you could stream you know from whatever you were doing like what if you could there are so many mechanisms what if everything you wrote and everything you said you can make a little bit off of for your entire life by the time you're 30 you know you've had interesting events and you know i think there's a lot of opportunity or god if you're you say you're in taiwan and like the shadow of tyranny approaches and they they initiate a more significant uh information campaign or disinformation campaign and an effort to intimidate what if you're a party that can just broadcast from the front lines and say like hey this is

what's really happening here and then receive information to see how it's portrayed from the outside the world and i think that's the greatest deterrent to kinetic action is that like you can't conquer the minds of the parties you're trying to occupy like you know they're moon bouncing the information and they're receiving it's right yeah like try to stop the moon trying to gee you're gonna have to go blow up the moon don't put it past them you know um you know i don't know there's some i'm pretty sure they're like nazi zombies on the moon but don't quote me on that it's just Before we wrap up here, how are you guys handling the Lightning Network infrastructure? Are you even handling it?

Or are you just creating the tool set in which people plug in Lightning? Are you guys spinning up your own nodes, doing channel management, or are you? Yeah. So for the sake of onboarding, we're supporting the network right now for the sake of we want everyone, all ships rise with the tide. And I believe you spoke with Graham. He's a friend of mine. He's a great dude of Voltage Cloud.

So we're working with Voltage. And I think one of the ways we see like onboarding for everyday developers or platforms or services is like, instead of having to know anything about Lightning, or to know anything about Bitcoin, right? If just part of your easy wizard, you know, simple tutorial setup, you go, okay, one, we will spin up a node for you via Voltage. If not, you can advance, run your own, you know, choose your own settings. Step two, extend liquidity. If not, you can do it your own way, but it should be simple steps where like, you know, it's under the hood. They don't have to know anything about Lightning or Bitcoin. And there are these great mechanisms that allows you to quickly, instead of having to piece together everything, you can just say, okay, we're going to use this API. And guess what? Now we have, you know, it's just literally like a line of code, right? And then you're streaming SATs, you're streaming peer-to-peer, resilient, uncensorable communication channels for everything, and it can serve as like a backup redundant communication layer or emergency action message network. But, yeah, so the way we see Lightning is we're just going to support it.

We want to keep it decentralized. We want to simplify onboarding. We want to simplify use. And that's why I was plugging Voltage Cloud. They're going to do great stuff. And in the meantime, yeah, we're going to do some stuff there, but mostly just simplifying, providing the mechanisms, making it as smooth to onboard and develop, and create the standard where, like, we don't care because, like, we've been… I'm sure you agree, like, the value prop of Bitcoin is so self-evident that, like, a good argument, like, you don't have to attack,

you know ad hominem you don't have to attack um make superficial um um suggestions or posture like the value prop is self-evident and it will win let's just like enable it so people will be like oh that was bitcoin yeah bitcoin's great or oh that was lightning lightning's awesome like it enabled this and like they don't have to know anything about it and so like that is how we'd like to support it you're gonna be uh beauty on is going to be one of your biggest fans that's uh something he's been preaching for years now it's like hey you'll know bitcoin's made it when everything's abstracted and people don't even realize they're using bitcoin right totally and that's and it's fascinating that bitcoin and lightning which you guys are leveraging more

specifically just enables these very unique use cases like you literally need to leverage this to create the product that you want to create correct like you arguably couldn't do it with anything else absolutely and you know they're you know lightning has you know they they paved the way right they were the machete in the jungle clearing it and we're like hey wow you have this you have this elegant uh infrastructure real-time you know liquidity real-time settlement layer let's do let's extrapolate that to data to communications like all programs without can network right like it's not ethereum it's not file it's not whatever it's look you can use this as is it's not going to corrupt it it's not going to slow it down we're just going to build on that

uh sound money and like i think it's great i'm looking at the volcano and i'm thinking like if i was in el salvador or or anywhere else it like you know it just makes central or the central authority or authorities like like what will be the incentive to like spin up uh you know central currency or centrally controlled uh currency when everyone's just adopted it and they like it and they they're not gonna care it's like okay that's great but we don't need you and it should be secondary and i think that like you know it's gonna just usher in just like the internet itself did this is the this is like in silicon valley like new new internet but it is it's literally rewriting the internet if anyone takes anything else from this and it's not hypothetical it's not

abstract we're doing it we've got great partners and in the next few weeks we're going to have a general release of our api so anyone can build on it we're stuck so where i was that was going to be my next question what do you guys have in store so it seems like you're going to launch a public API. Is there any way anybody can help? Is there anything? Absolutely. Yeah, the freaks, you can go to impervious.ai and you can use a burner. We don't care. Just provide your email and you'll be notified of progress. You'll be notified of the timeline and development and you'll be the first to know. It was hundreds, now I think it's a couple thousand

signups to develop requesting access to our, our API and our beta. So like, if you want to develop if you want to consider it if you want to explore the application just like sign up, we will support it we're not a lot of documentation we're gonna have to talk tutorials we're working you know closely with lightning labs but with a bunch of other parties, and we would love for you to like be the initial use cases. And our VPN is just an example of what you can build on it, and we'll discuss like hey look um look at the specific applications how that can be packaged you can do that with your own and uh so yeah freaks hell yeah get on the bandwagon and and independent minds free minds for uh sound money let's do it start building layer three is here don't let

anybody tell you that uh lightning is vaporware it seems like people are leveraging it to build pretty cool stuff, Chase and the Impervious. Thanks. Yeah. And Mark and Colin and our team is rapidly growing. So yeah. And we're hiring pretty quickly. So reach out. You can reach out to support at impervious.ai. We're accessible on Twitter. We're growing quickly. We may not be at a capacity to hire everyone we would like today, but at the end of summer, we're going to have another significant hiring spree so like just start the communication start building you know toy with it explore it start a discussion and like we we love the community and the support and your podcast and i hope to revisit we can talk about what that's looked like post-launch

and development we'll definitely have to do a a six months six month post-launch catch-up where we like hey let's look at what everything everybody's built yeah yeah everyone's on the new internet there's freedom prosperity right we've we've made central um authorities gatekeepers and intermediaries are relevant and like you know we're bouncing shit off the moon if not already on the moon so like i'm looking forward to it man well well chase i'm very happy to have connected with you over the last couple weeks and learn more about impervious and see what you guys are building thank you for for building what you're building again like i said the the way to get uh away from these dystopian models that we've been discussing for the last hour and a half

almost is to equip people with tools that that allowed them to build things to to protect against that it seems to be exactly what you're building in impervious so thank you oh thank you looking forward to it man all right well um i'm gonna link to everything you just mentioned in the show notes guys go check them out impervious.ai that's all we got this week

peace thanks Marty peace thank you