TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #315: The return of NVK

Episode Date: March 16, 2022

Join Marty as he sits down with NVK, the fearless leader of Coinkite, to talk about a little bit of everything. Follow NVK on Twitter Follow Coinkite on Twitter Purchase all Coinkite products discussed on the show. Shoutout to our sponsors: Unchained Capital Braiins HodlHodl Bitcoin 2022 - use the code TFTC for 10% off Download Fountain Podcasts

What is up, freaks? It's your boy, Marty Bent, here to introduce this episode of TFT CSF down with our good friend, Rodolfo Novak, founder of CoinKite. Incredible human being, a renaissance man, if you will. We just had an incredible meandering conversation. We talked about it all. I really like this one. I fucking love what we got going on here at the Bitcoin Commons. The vibe is very high. Elevated. Getting the studio finally put together

and sitting down. The set that we have here. I think it's going to produce some good content. Shout out to Carr. He's behind the computer right now. He's putting everything together, making us look good. We're stepping it up here at TFTC, freaks.

Trying to make something legitimate. doing our best this rip was brought to you by our good friends at Unchained Capital Unchained Capital is here to bring you financial services net leverage Bitcoin's native properties

they have their vault product which is a 2 or 3 multi-sig quorum in which you hold 2 keys, Unchained holds 1 key you always have access to your Bitcoin as long as you have your 2 keys, if you're ever in a pinch you need Unchained

to be the second in the two or three multi-sig quorum. They are there for you. They have a lending platform as well. Use your Bitcoin as collateral. It's same-day U.S. dollar liquidity. They have an IRA product. Roll over your IRA into Bitcoin. You can control the keys too.

Jeff Anders running that team. Be on the lookout too. They had a data breach last week. They just announced earlier today in terms of data breaches, severity relatively low compared to data breaches that happen

in other areas of the industry but yeah there was a data breach some identifying information emails, IP addresses that were stored on a trusted third party

did get socially engineered that their party got socially engineered. So go check out the announcement there. We'll try to link to that in the show notes as well.

But if you want to go, check out everything they got going on. Incredible products, incredible team, incredible content, unchained.com. This rip was also brought to you

by our good friends at Brains. Dean's car is pulling off his headphones because that was a high. I hit that high note. Brains with two I's. B-R-A-I-I-N-S. Incredible team.

Been in Bitcoin for quite a while. They're a team behind Slushpool, which is the oldest mining pool in Bitcoin's history. Started in 2010. They're a team behind BrainsOS Plus Firmware, which allows you to stack more sats with your hash if you download it on nasix that's compatible if you have a nasix that's compatible with any of brains os plus firmware versions and you're not using it you are leaving sats on the table it's

as simple as that they've insights.brains.com i-n-s-i-g-h-t-s.brains.com that is your one-stop shop for all the pertinent mining data that you may need as an individual or a business in the mining industry. They were going to throw a conference, but they had to cancel it. They'll probably reschedule it at some point later. Be on the lookout for that. What else do they have? Incredible content as well.

If you want to learn about the mining industry, history, how it works, what they're working on. They work on open source projects as well like Stratton V2. Go check it out. Brains.com. B-R-A-I-I-N-S.com. This report was also brought to you by good friends at Hodl. Hodl is here

to bring you a peer-to-peer lending platform no kyc no aml it also leverages bitcoin's native multi-sig properties what you do is you put your bitcoin up in a collateral escrow multi-sig accounts where you hold one key it's a two and three multi-sig you hold one key or counterparty the counterparty holds one key and then huddle huddle is there with the third key in this setup you do not you cannot move the funds in the escrow account for obvious reasons however you do have visibility into that multisig wall to ensure that your sats aren't being rehypothecated and that if you're paying your stablecoin loan back plus the interest at the end of the day, you are going to get your

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Lend.HodlHodl.com This was the last but not least brought to you by our good friends at the Bitcoin 2022 conference which is coming up real quick we had CK, Pete Rizzo and Dylan LeClaire on the show yesterday

a great little four person powwow here at the Bitcoin Commons talking about everything they're doing at Bitcoin Magazine, what they have planned at Bitcoin 2022 it is happening in a few weeks April 6th to 9th in South Beach, Miami

it's a four day event they've got industry day which is the first day you want to brush elbows with industry hot players it's day one, six days two and three, seventh and eighth are general conference days we're going to go in and it's going to be a massive event

with many stages, having very focused talks, panels, presentations. There's going to be many CEOs throughout the industry that are participating. There's President Bukele is going to be making a big announcement. I think we've got senators, congressmen coming in to talk as well. It's going to be a hell of an event. Day four is a music and comedy festival. They've added comedy to the list as well. They've got comedians coming. They've got Steve Aoki coming, Logic, Deadmau5, Run the Jewels and a bunch of funny comics as well. Hannibal Barris will be there.

We announced that yesterday. Mark Maron's going to be there. It's going to be a cool event. The Bitcoin Magazine team, BTC Media team is creating a very cool cultural event in South Beach, Miami. Go to b.tc slash conference

to get your tickets if you haven't already. They're going to be going up as we approach conference day. Use the code tftc that's tftc you're going to get 10 off your tickets b.tc slash conference uh code tftc last but not least i know i just said that for bitcoin 2022 conference however we got to make you aware that if you download the fountain app and you listen to tftc any tftc episode between now and the end of the month march 31st uh you're going to get 1000 sats sent to your fountain wallet and at the end of the month

on the 31st, we're going to randomly choose a freak who downloads the app and listens to a TFTC episode 50,000 sats. That's like 2,500 sats a dollar right now times that by two. That's $2 times that by 10.

It's $20 worth of Bitcoin. 20 cuck bucks worth of sats, okay? Download the Fountain app. Fountain.fm, I believe, is the website. If you want to go check out where you can download that. Enjoy this rip of Rodolfo fucking Renaissance, man.

Incredible rip. Okay. You've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free. When you talk about a Fed just gone nuts, all the central banks going nuts. So it's all acting like safe haven. I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency,

bitcoin wins in the world of fiat currencies bitcoin is the victor i mean that's part of the bull case for bitcoin if you're not paying attention you probably should be or we'd lose like the pizzazz of showing it live oh we got the audio going now oh my gosh well you guys missed out um yeah so dude i have this cool thing Daryl is out of time Daryl is out of time I just got to wrap up

so this is called this is called an open dime Bitcoin wallet so this has a Bitcoin on it this has a full Bitcoin on it okay and it has this hole

that you can puncture so I can this is basically the cash equivalent it's a bearer instrument for Bitcoin so I can hand this to you okay I'm not giving it to you

but just we can see it don't take my Bitcoin so it works as a USB drive so yeah You plug in your computer and you can send Bitcoin to it and then you've got to puncture that hole and that's what unlocks the private key. So I can give it to you and you cannot access the Bitcoin on this until that hole is punctured. And then you plug it back in and you can actually take control of the Bitcoin.

What does that have to do with censorship? Well, this is the ultimate censorship-resistant crowdfunding mechanism. This is totally uncensorable money that anyone can send crypto. Right, but we're talking about discussions, conversations. Well, yeah. And so the reason I'm bringing it up is because we are putting a full Bitcoin towards, you know, our work with Daryl and this we're going to have this basically sit and we're going to watch it over the years and we're going to use the funds. The address for this wallet is published on Minds.com slash change. And so what we want to do, you know, you see all the censorship, the financial censorship happening, which is correlated to censorship of speech. um google's now suspended monetization on youtube for all users in russia applies to other services as well it's a whole creator industry up in smoke no way these guys can make up that revenue on

it's unbelievable yeah so so i just wanted to bring this up because so we're we're going to be doing more events we believe in offline events too it's not only an online social network and so if the address says if anyone is interested in supporting the conversations the long-form conversations we're having with Daryl. Please send Bitcoin to this address and we're going to put it towards that. Thank you. Thank you guys for coming here. Oh, wow. You just cut him off

there. Get the hell out of here. Totally. Yeah, we're going to start off this episode with some podcast inception. We had a clip from another podcast and what's it like seeing OpenDiamond Joe Rogan show? It's pretty cool, right? I mean, you know, it's like permeating into

mainstream, right? Because it's kind of funny because Rogan now is actually mainstream yes yes like it's not that guy that it's just he's more mainstream than cnn right like yeah he's got a bigger audience than cnn that's for sure and and you know like bitcoin is on everything now it's like it's part of every large conversation that there is well it has to be i mean especially considering what's going on in the world the last few months particularly it's still tiny like you know when you talk about like total capitalization of bitcoin still less than a billion dollars but it's on everything yeah like what are we at like 800 billion 775 or something

like that i would imagine but we don't care no we don't we're just gonna keep stacking keep building i mean a product that you built just got broadcast out to millions of people did you guys have a bump in traffic yesterday i don't think anybody understood like i don't think it was like any change in sales what do you uh what do you give the uh the gentleman wearing an ethereum shirt what would you give him in a rating of describing your product

I think like you know for an army show like he he did it he did it in 8 yeah 8

yeah okay in 8 and then he got rushed off the stage Joe was like get the fuck out of here I don't care right

it was totally like that Rogan does not seem to have a lot of patience for Bitcoin yeah I wonder why maybe because he's just like incessantly getting it

yeah he's like but there's gonna be that one day it's gonna be the show it's gonna be like oh because he's not going to get the platform anymore

he's too big I think so for some reason he's crossed the chasm I think he should Spotify deal is actually getting paid very handsomely but I think he should be doing

podcasts in a more open source fashion setting it out in RSS feed and not centralizing it to one platform I mean how much of Spotify's revenue and

audience comes because of him. Like you could almost say that Spotify is his. Well, it was a very good product before. Like I was a paying Spotify member before Joe Rogan came. But he certainly brought in

many more viewers. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, but Bitcoin is permeating mainstream culture. It really is. More and more. I mean, it's on everything.

Like the Ukraine shit. Let's talk about the Canada shit. Trudeau shit. Yeah. You somehow escaped Canada to come down to Austin, Texas. You're here. And what's it been like up in Canada? It's, it was weird.

It was really weird. It's like, you know, they've been sort of like really putting the boot down, right? With the whole, with the whole like max passes and all that shit. And then, you know, the truckers were duly vilified by mainstream in Canada, right? It was weird to see all American media sort of like, yeah, freedom, right? And then in Canada, everybody's like, oh, but these guys are all Nazis, right? Do people really believe that in Canada? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, the state broadcaster is the state broadcaster, right?

And they pretend to be this sort of like very noble kind of like BBC kind of like media, right? Or CBC, right? Yeah, CBC, Canadian Broadcast Corporation. And they're essentially just a PR arm of the federal government, right? our friend Pierre might just already announced that he's going to

defund the CBC if he gets elected he's like yeah boom got my vote we've been talking about this the last two days is he going to get elected

does he have a chance he totally does yeah he's he's very sharp like he can argue shit

without like without one tiring people out two he's got the facts and he knows how to like interject

when like reporters try to do a gotcha on him try to cut him off or whatever like he just like rams that over and you said

another key part was he's bilingual he can speak French that's right I didn't realize he could speak French I've only ever heard his English

yeah you know still politician whatever complicated but you know we take what we can get I mean I think

he seems pretty principled to me oh he is man there is this picture that surfaced out of him in like high school school book or something

And the line under it was something like, you know, government services are terrible for people or something like that. They're like consistent. That way, Canada has such an opportunity to crush it, especially considering all the natural resources that you have. It's got everything. relatively small economy that could be high margin big thinkers like yourself building pretty massive i mean pretty important companies in the bitcoin space up there yeah i mean like you know like a lot of bitcoin stuff started there it's just you know it's such a this squandering at all right in the last five years this prime minister but just in general it's um

you know the esg shit right i mean you go back to hydro quebec that was longer than five years ago right when was that like 2016 2015 when they did the mining thing right we just kicked everybody out so dumb so dumb you know you know and then you have the oil the oil in alberta right like it just it looks ugly from the sky right so it's bad photo op but like it's super like green for whatever that means like it's like they have all the stamps and you know they do it all right Because they want to sell it and they want to sort of like, you know,

it's whatever it takes for the market to take this, right? And there's a lot of it. Lots of natural resources of all kinds. You know, like a lot of

indigenous people also want the pipelines as well. But then, you know, it's a mess. It is a mess. Yeah.

I mean, not only in Canada, across the world right now, it seems like it was. Governments are fucking up everything. Well, I mean, you know, Trudeau was a gift, right? To Bitcoin. I mean, like it was an absolute gift. Like, would we ever imagine that you'd have a G20 prime minister, like go on TV and say like, Hey, we're going to go martial law because some truckers got donations and we're going to freeze bank accounts. like it's amazing that they show their cards right like now we know and no sane person is ever going to banking anymore like well that's like the interesting part has actually gotten swept under

the rug with all the russia and ukraine that's popped up is that he quickly like reversed it was like all right we're not they're not freezing bank accounts anymore right i mean no no i i'm pretty sure that so like he got a call right like he must have gotten a call from his mps or whatever who got the calls from the bankers, right? Saying, listen, you know, all the money is leaving because a lot of people who are liquid cash are liquid in USD in Canada, right? Like wealthy people bank USD.

So if this USD is leaving the country, you're not going to see it reflected on the exchange rate to the CAD, right? Because if CAD was leaving the country, CAD would tank. But like the USD is like, you know, it's a wire away to your branch in US. It's TD as well, right?

like it's like just send it over there and and at least you got a little jurisdiction firewall right um yeah i mean canada like is not going to recuperate from this for like you know a generation or two like rich people are not going to bank there yeah you don't think so fuck no i mean like why why would you like it's crazy like there's no incentive right well that's the thing it can happen here in america too oh it can happen anywhere I think that's why Trudeau I got to thank

Trudeau personally I think his actions led me to get on the Tucker Carlson show so I want to thank you Justin that was a good appearance thank you

but you had a highlight oh shit this is maybe the button's never been pushed before they just push it it's completely possible

yeah he taught Bitcoin to a lot of people yeah you know it was kind of funny because when that happened I was like

you know what's my exposure right because you know I donated I'm like you know they're going to

freeze my company bank accounts what are they going to do and I'm like I don't care it doesn't make so much difference right like

it's like you know there's just the fiat float like screw it like it's

Bitcoin really saves the day yeah it really does I had I mean I donated right in this room yeah could they come get me

could they come get me am I on a list now they could seriously they could actually like let's say it was politically interesting

to buy it right to participate in the stupidity they could have like asked Vincent to like you know

maybe put a stop on some bank accounts and stuff yeah because terrorists right yeah you guys have laws

to handle that without courts here too right yeah yeah I mean there's a lot of extrajudicial actions here

yeah terrorists terrorists terrorists how desperate are they that they're labeling working class people

terrorists it's hilarious how Trudeau in march of 2020 was asking everybody to thank a trucker yeah and then two years later let's unbank a trucker he's like literally peak woke like it's like the peak don't call peak we've we've been calling peaks here and we've been we've been proven wrong i i don't think there is anything more that comes after him like it's just not possible he's like the level of hypocrisy and vacuousness

and like it's just that's it like he's he's it like they should have a flag when they say woke

it's like Trudeau's face on it well it is crazy how sociopathic he is like when he got COVID and escaped to wherever he was

and he was like out on his back porch I mean the guy has like raped some lady and then what? like an NDA or something

I don't know the full story don't want to be liable but like you know there's some like you know story around some sexual shit shit with him and then like you know there's all the snc lavalin there's gaddafi son

stuff there's the castro thing there is like man it's like every like couple weeks there's like a new like the guy is teflon right like well he's like teflon sociopath like yeah i'm just gonna ignore all this and i mean i think he's fidelicastro so i don't think there's any doubt yeah right i I mean, he's got the charisma, man. Like he, he can, he can, he can rally a crowd, you know, he has good hair. He's a young global leader. They groomed the young global leader as well. It's funny.

His father made, his family made all their money with gas stations. Really? Yeah. They sold about 30 gas stations way back in the day. What was his dad's name? Pierre Trudeau. Yeah. I don't know if it was his father or his grandfather who had the gas station.

That's how his family made him into a trust fund baby. Yeah. God, like, how do we end up with these? I mean, here in the United States, we have Joe Biden, who's literally losing his mind in front of the world. Yeah, no, it's Sleepy Joe, right? That's what they call him.

Yeah, that's what Travis Trump was very good at nicknames, Sleepy Joe. I know, right? I kind of missed that. Simpler times, right? Trump's like, you know, for all his flaws, were definitely simpler times, politically speaking, no war and just orange man bed and that's it, right?

No, but he was going to start World War III. Right. but now everybody's begging for world war three it's so weird the clown world is very perplexing yeah i mean it's like you know all of a sudden it's like everybody's like critical thinking just out the window it's like you know when when countries are sort of at war with each other like there's no saints right it's you know there's just a population suffering but you know it's not like you know that's the thing that pisses me off it feels like what's going on and what has been going on is like a massive proxy war on the global stage

totally we're just collateral damage where right so it's been like that right i mean yeah but you know the petrodollar was it's officially over it's just gonna take a little while to wind down but it's over do you think it's officially over oh yeah i mean they they announced that foreign reserves don't don't are not really sovereign anymore right they're just gonna you know please take your money and go and uh and then now saudi arabia you know says that they're not gonna like they're looking to the yuan i mean just for them to say that out loud it's like it's essentially like them hint hint yeah it's over it's over it's a good thing i mean like petrodollar is bad for america i agree i agree i mean triffin's dilemma is is real and we're definitely coming to the end

of the dilemma that Triffin laid out, which is, all right, over the next number of decades, you're going to hollow out your manufacturing base and inflate the dollar, but it's going to end bad. Good short term.

It was a good run. Bombed a few countries and now it's a misery. It was a good run. Brought democracy across the world. You're going to have this democracy story if you want it or not. Freedom.

Here, put some ink on your fingertip. You got democracy. That's right. How do you see this evolving? Oh man, this one is going to be hard to see how it plays out. Yeah, there's many ways it could go. I am, I'm pretty, I mean, so Putin killed COVID, Putin killed self-made inflation. I think Putin is like sort of like the perfect cover for them to wind this off a little bit.

it's a software landing right because people won't freak out everybody's now busy with you know ukrainian like sports cars with machine guns on top of them and you know that cool president actor guy he's literally an actor yeah comedian yeah um yeah you know and it's impossible to know what the is going on there like for real yeah i have no idea i've stopped trying to even yeah it's moved on like what's the next issue you know like of like

of the world right like I think they're trying to bring COVID back I've been seeing tweets about a new variant okay they should call it a

like the Sputnik or something like something Russian yeah it's I mean obviously we believe that Bitcoin should be

the monetary system that people transition to but it's probably not going to happen right away. No, this is, you know, I remember, right? Like Bitcoin is like 800 million, sorry, 800 billion.

Like that's like a rounding error on most like treasury trades kind of thing. Like, you know, like it really is nothing, right? But what's really cool is that being so little also gives all the little men

like a chance to front run the system, right? So the more people we get into Bitcoin now, the better it is for them. It's going to happen. it's inevitable like there's no there's nothing else right you're gonna like buy gold how many bars of gold can you put in your butt to go to an airplane like like so you know at the current

gold price like you know for for somebody to take real money out it would be like a toddler's worth of weight like you can't get through an airport with that like they'll see it you know it's uh there really is nothing else well even like so i mean you're talking about like escaping with your wealth but i think even on the international trade international like commodities trade thing what's going to happen if saudi arabia is talking to china about uh doing oil sales in yuan and pricing them in yuan and settling them in yuan maybe they'll do the same thing with russia rubles and what you have is you basically have this like currency barter taken to a whole nother level that's very inefficient right so like in bitcoin in that sense even though yes it is extremely

small on a relative basis at 800 billion dollars it theoretically is much cleaner of a solution for these trades oh yeah i mean but but that's sort of later on you know governments are not going to let go of the money printer right they're just going to come up with the next one and just keep on going like that i mean especially when you're talking about foreign trade right they want to be able to devalue or revalue their currency to play that you know it's gonna get weird maybe do we

see 400 barrel oil by summer I don't think 400 you think it gets that high depends on how these guys play this I filled up my car before I came here today 465 a gallon in Texas

which is unheard of Parker Lewis texted me two weeks ago and he's like $4 gas in Texas. That's spooky. It's up 65 cents since then. Do we have like an inflation adjusted, official inflation adjusted price of gas versus like, you know, the 90s or the 70s kind of thing? So some of those. I don't know. Shadow stats might have it if you want to look that up, Carr.

Inflation adjusted gas prices. Because, you know, maybe the four bucks right now on the tank, it's like, you know, it's not really that high yet. yeah well in the 90s gas was what like below a dollar yeah

and then what was it was it the 70s that we had the 70s was like yeah where you had

the rationing and everything yeah and you had uh Volcker that's right jack up rates to 18%

he tried he tried they raised rates today at the Fed apparently yeah man the problem is like at the current foreign debt

like you know it could raise it to like what 30% still not going to make a dent. It's like, you know, go 50%. Nope. There is nothing you can't do. It's done.

The world ended, economically speaking, in 2008. We're just sort of kicking that down the line. How much further can they kick it? I don't know, man. I don't put them... Like, these guys are smart. They'll sell their grand-grand-grandchildren's future just so they can get reelected.

Like, they'll go all the way, Marty. Well, when it comes to Fed chairmen, they don't even get elected, right? I think with them, it's just they don't want to be like the one holding the hot potato when it blows up. Yeah, but you know that the politicians that influence them too, right?

Like say, hey, listen, you know, election is coming. The market needs to pump. Yeah. Again, like maybe we find ourselves in this very unique situation. Again, we have a president who's losing his mind. we have a vice president who is

completely idiotic she's completely unfit for the job jail for you jail for you like she's weird she's weird and then they have the speaker of the house third in line or you know secretary of state third in line I don't know Nancy Pelosi is who I'm talking about

she like is going through dementia as well in front of everybody and confidence is a big game it's a big part of this how do they have like age limits for people or like just term limits yes you know like what happened to term limits you know is this a dictatorship these people just keep on going over and over and over and over and how do they keep getting

voted in like that's my question like how's elizabeth warren people in massachusetts still getting voted in that's a weird one yeah she's like also another psychopath right like social path liar like she's a native american yeah right i think i have more native american in me than she this i think you might as well yeah she i think she literally took the blood test trump like goaded her and was taking the blood test and there was nothing like i think like a thousandth of a percent does that count for taxes because that's the real question right i don't know i mean i think it should i think there is like a ratio yeah i think i think i think it should so we are all you know indigenous at some place at some point in time so we should all just be tax exempt i think so as

Well, I'll run on that. Are there age limits in Canada? No. No. What about term limits? No. So prime ministers are just the leader of the party, right? We don't have presidents, right?

So they can just keep on running. I think max that we've seen so far is about three full terms of the sitting of the parliament. Yeah, that's what you're saying. Pierre's in the process of the vote for the leader of the party. Yeah, so essentially it's our primaries that are kind of going on right now where they're all sort of going around

asking the party members because you have to be a party member to vote who's going to be the party leader. Right? Because he's an MP. He's essentially a sitting congressman equivalent kind of thing. So yeah, so he's running.

And he likes Bitcoin. He's a real Bitcoiner. like he's he's a fan of Saif's book like legit like I mean you saw that speech

where he teaches about money right like yeah it's where is that like the picnic table no

there was another one like he he did one on the floor on the floor yeah that one it was like that was that was

that was good for some reason I remember a video of him like walking through like a meadow like by a picnic table you know like the average person

does not give a flying fuck about the like the parliament or what's going on in parliament or politicians or anything

it's just you know we are over politicized through like you know twitter and things like that but like the average person like that's absolutely no clue what do you what do you think the average person cares about in canada right now i mean how's the price like you know homes in in front are going up like 28 percent per year are people scared i don't think people i think i think people are just sort of like desensitized they have no idea that like the the rug was pulled under and they're sort of just like trying to live their lives one thing i noticed though so last year um you know covid insanity blah blah blah um you know people were buying a lot of shit right like you saw the

amazon boxes because that's how i know the economy is going in and out like by the amount of amazon boxes on the on garbage day on my street right and it was like insane amounts of stuff right But like, man, this year, it's like barely any. Like you can see like people are starting to get tighter on cash, right? Because, you know, how do you afford like beef going up like 20% or whatever, right? Like it's rough, man, for the average person. Like things are getting tough. And it seems like here in America, I don't want to speak from an American perspective,

they're only trying to make it tougher, the policy. Well, but the thing is, you know, like the people are a little bit to blame here, right? I mean, they want the free shit. like free services right and where do how do politicians get elected

promising free stuff how do they pay for the free stuff they print yeah like well it's not even just the free stuff

like when you talk about energy policy yeah there's that too somebody came out this week like no more drilling on federal land

which is a terrible policy they're hey how's it working for Germany right gas prices are going up

it was actually poetic this week you had Budapest come out and be like gas prices are going up you should buy an electric vehicle then not two days later tesla raised all the prices to their cars on their website i mean you know even for us i mean like manufacturers like they'll send us like you know their their memos you know like all the time about different things supply chains or whatever right and it's like oh and we are also doing a five to fifteen percent cross board increase in all the parts like okay you know it's not like

there's an alternative and it's actually pretty small when you think about real inflation right yeah what is your uh breakdown of the current supply chain situation worsening getting better well things were were definitely improving right um aside from cost i mean last year was a disaster um you know it got to a point where like things were costing three four times its own cost just shipping from china right it adds up yeah um because we have to repass that customer right um now the things were getting better but china is still in this covid zero insanity they just closed down china until march 21st yes shenzhen's completely shut down right yeah so i wanted to get like a new keypad done for the the mark 4 and it's like like with a slightly

different design on it and you know i just can't i'm gonna have to use the the inventory i have this current style like because the turnaround is going to just push us back yeah and this is it's insane it's a conversation we've you've been here for a few days and we've been having this conversation and one of the conversations we had is like all right how do we bring this back to us is it even possible no the way you describe shenzhen's completely blue no it's like imagine a place the size of like a major american state and there is a factory butt to butt with another and each of them has like 300,000 people in it. It's just like, you know, you have all the inputs too. Right. So like, you're going to have like a factory that makes the chemicals that

you're not even allowed to make it in America. Right. Like just, you just can't make the chemical here. Right. And then you need the chemical from a regulatory perspective. So then you need that chemical to mix with another chemical that you're also not allowed to make that then goes to just wash some parts that they make the machine that makes the other parts it's just like the intricacy of of manufacturing of modern devices like you know just like hyperbolic speaking like you know probably cost like a hundred thousand dollars to make a apple laptop in in north america with all the proper regulations on every single part of the process right because remember this is not just assembly right like you still have to make the packages of the chips you have to make the

silicon you have to the tin for the pcb like you know the gold layer that goes on top of it like the plastics the glues the glasses the aluminums and then the machines that cut the aluminum the machines the lasered aluminum and the the wash of the aluminum like it's just so insane it's just you know and china does not exist without north america either right like it's totally symbiotic now right i mean we're way past this nation state bullshit that we pretend to have like you know you do some stuff here you do some stuff in taiwan you do some stuff in like in in vietnam or whatever and then he goes there and then he gets some processes done there and then goes back somewhere else right um you know a lot of american cars they're essentially like

their parts are sent to canada that then gets processed there on some some process and then goes back to america um you know the sooner that people stop with the whole like statism around this stuff like the better like then we start to move somewhere all right so how do you how would you describe the statism around the stuff and what would your ideal solution of moving away from that look like well i mean you know you have to go to a real free trade right It's like, you don't want to be paying like import tax on a part that's going to come in and then go out. And there is ways around that, but it's super complicated. You have like economic trade zones and stuff like that in the country.

Yeah. I mean, you know, let us just do business. Stay out of our lives. Really? It really is that simple. You know, like everybody wants to do business. You know, Chinese people love doing business. They're super capitalists there.

Right. And, and it's so weird that like North America is way more like commie around business than there, right? They're super pragmatic there. Super engineering, like, you know, you have all, everybody has a STEM degree there, you know, you're like starting your new factory that's going to do whatever. And, you know, you just posted a newspaper, like I need manufacturing engineering for this one specific weird thing, right? I'm sure you're going to have a hundred thousand people line up in front of the thing for an interview, right? We simply don't have that here in North America. Yeah, I mean, we can send them

with our English majors. You know, like, no, no, nothing against it, but it's just, you know, what are you going to produce? Like, more bad news, like, on BuzzFeed? Yeah, it's yeah,

it's like the whole thing. Have we been color revolution into degrading and stupefying our population? I don't know man like North America still

makes the best software like you know China can make hardware but they can't do software I mean every single like even higher end Chinese products

that they're not even North American market they have a lot of cool stuff there the software is atrocious yeah absolutely atrocious do you think that's a

pure language barrier thing like actually having to write the software in English it's probably cultural like you know the same you know the same way they're like very focused on

you know they have like 50 years now trying to build manufacturing 100 years trying to build manufacturing right like

it's like they now have like this massive amount of population that does tech in a certain way they have their own ways of sharing

like sort of like IP around like what they make between factories that are friends of each other kind of in their own

sort of version of open source in a way but I don't know like they're just the engineers they're like really good yeah

but not not the software man that's crazy how specialized it is apparently they have surpassed

North America with like machine learning stuff wouldn't be surprised like do you think we like I think we need to

distribute the supply chain more that's not possible because it's too inefficient right remember

you know especially if we keep on going with all this stupidity around energy right you know it costs money

to move physical things right this is not like you know a bunch of dudes building a photo sharing app but they're like sharing ideas on slack right sharing information it's nearly free but like you know even us like we don't have an office so like when we're developing stuff like hardware wise right we still like ship between each other because we're too lazy to drive around but like we just like you know seriously sometimes like put a part in a taxi send it somebody else's house but you have

to physically send something for somebody else to do something with it right task or whatever

so if you decentralize the manufacturing like the compounding effect of the like extra mile

just an extra mile it's insane yeah you actually want to consolidate further

you just want to have more hubs maybe making similar things

but that's also an efficiency right yeah yeah it's crazy to think

what like rising gas prices are going to do for like we thought we had a problem and over the last year you know we getting emails from all the the courier services right so dhl fedex ups all this thing like that's going up price going up price going up you know because what i think happened last year was just like us uh you know just maybe momentarily you know like i already have parts from previous year that were a good price so maybe we're gonna eat some of that loss inside from, from the margin that you make on the product. But you know, when you're dealing with like consumer electronics or other things that the margins may be thinner, right, or cars, um, there's only so

much that they can eat the margin. Right. So they're going to start pushing price up, but nobody wants to be the one that pushes the price up, right. Because your competitors are going to sell more if they're cheaper. So everybody started like doing this stare off game. And then it's like, you know, eventually everybody's just, it's just going to pop. Yeah. I mean, it's starting to happen again, like Tesla just raised their prices. I'm sure like seeing all the precious metals and industrial metals going crazies.

Just imagine farmers now, right? Because, you know, Russia produces what, like 60% of the world's ammonia nitrate. You know, especially for modern agriculture, like you need a lot of that stuff. It's fertilizers. yeah you need a lot of that stuff and you know they already bought next year's crops fertilizer but they're going to start building the price right so they might actually have to raise the prices already to be able to afford the next sort of purchase right um food cost is gonna just like it's gonna be insane by the end of this year it already is that way i don't think we haven't even started to see we're talking about like 2-3 acts

for stuff it's fucking scary shit man maybe this is the last that comes in without paying I don't think people are going to move on from the printer tits I mean

it isn't it's the whole weak men create hard times the hard times seem to be upon us yeah i mean and then there's all this weird dynamic too right i mean you know you're like in brazil and and you know you see some guy like super like you know not wealthy person like really sort of like somebody who struggles right living in a flabella with a latest iphone

holy shit man it's like you know it's it's so weird it is just absolutely it's so weird yeah this is like the relative comfort of a poor person today compared to like a poor person

a hundred years ago it's crazy it's absolutely crazy like the imbalance of the dynamic right that people have that they don't have

yeah well that's what we were talking again when we were getting barbecue I think me and Pierre had like a little

side conversation like people are gonna have to learn how to fix stuff like the fact that we can get like a $200 washing machine that's pretty crazy

yeah it's like you know just think about this like yeah that was my example the the think about a stacked uh washer dryer right i i think on sale right and like a lower brand you can probably get it for two three hundred bucks one of those right just the weight in steel of the effect i didn't i cannot comprehend how they can make that device with margin for two, 300 bucks, right? Like, so as, as things go up in price now,

just the transportation of the machine, everything, it's the price is going to go up so high. So everybody's going to have to like fix things because you can't just throw away. Yeah. So they're going to have to make it better and pay even higher price because, you know, quality things cost more.

Yeah. I'm willing to pay more for quality. Yeah. I mean, you know, have less stuff of more quality. that's why I like that's why I like your product nice segue there

no but it's I mean that's something we've we've talked about on the show before in the past like it's crazy like I have

like my grandmother I'm pretty sure she had a blender that she bought in like the 50s that like lasted until like a decade ago yeah

it's you know what was the name of the food processor there is one that's like a KitchenAid yeah

no anyways there's one that's like a staple right like if you bought it like way back in the day you know

it just would never break and the same one that looks exactly the same they still sell you know it breaks and it's not cheap

yeah that's probably KitchenAid yeah they look industrial yeah I mean you know

it's like labor cost and QA cost and materials like you know you could do things with materials that you can't anymore because the environment right like you know there's all kinds of stuff like that yeah like

how much is this esg environmental bullshit fucking up things as well well i mean it's perturbing the free trade it's just it's so insidious and it's so many levels right they're like it's even hard to quantify it it ruins everything how would you describe its insidiousness well i mean just think about like each step of manufacturing for example right like you know the glass cannot use arsenic or, you know, you don't get one of the stamps of approval, right? Some plastics that are probably better can't be used, you know? So then like you have to either, you know,

because physical things are physical, you can't cheat physics, right? So when you talk about materials, they're going to have like either cost, right? Or like capacity of withstanding something, right? Or you have to change the chemistry that might be bad, right? for people or for process or environment or whatever, right? So like you can't, like you're still bound by physics there, right? So, you know, Apple sells premium devices.

So what they do is they just go up in price and they invent a better material. Yeah. That costs more. Yeah. Right? And it provides you with similar, like similar aspects that the other does.

But then you look at like the ones that are not premium devices, they have to go shittier, right? Like then everything breaks. yeah that's what it feels like an iPhone versus like a Pixel yeah iPhone feels a lot

you can tell I mean like you know like so this guy is like you know they there was this one company that could make sapphire glass

in big enough quantity with this amazing tech they go and they buy the the factory the IP and everything

and now they probably one of the biggest producers of sapphire glass like yeah it's a good product it is degrading

though a little bit on the software side of things yeah well I mean you know all the good old guys with beards probably like

retiring and leaving yeah you know like Macs are original Unix you know it's like Darwin it's free BSD

yeah well BSD but yeah it's I need a new Mac my 2014 MacBook Pro is dying it's becoming

incredibly slow the battery does not work anymore when are we going to get a longer battery life oh man battery attack is so depressing

like you know they've been promising us some cool new tech. There is like interesting new tech. It's just the power density is very low, right?

There's that LifePo 2. So like, it's like just a different electrolyte in there that's like safe. So it doesn't explode like lithium batteries. But, you know,

I don't know what the ratio is, but like you need a lot more volume to store the same amount of energy. Yeah, that's the thing I don't get.

Like make my phone like half a centimeter thicker. I don't care. Just give me a lot more battery. Let it last for a week and not a day.

That would be incredible. this fetish with like thinner and thinner and thinner devices that i really don't get that was the other thing you were talking about it may have been last night or the night before but uh it's like the diversity of phone design yeah it used to exist it's just not there anymore yeah i mean that that the jobs uh uh presentation of the the iphone i mean you know people don't appreciate that like there were no touch devices before the iphone the touch was invented for the iPhone. Yeah.

Like the idea that you could like take a keyboard out. Right. I remember how long people kept the BlackBerrys because the tech took a long time. You know, and then there was a Palm Pilot.

Yeah. I was going to say the Palm Pilot was maybe the first like attempt at it, but it was terrible. Yeah. It's like awful and you pretend to write the letters and they show up.

It was just awful. Yeah. I had all those devices. It used to be fun to buy phones because they're always like different. Yeah. you get the chocolate yeah the razor you had a yeah the spin up and flip the straight flip the slide but you know this this happens with like any new invention right like you know when when

cars came out right like when like there were like hundreds of car companies trying all kinds of weird stuff but then you find an optimal design that that really solves the utilitarian problem of the thing right and then that's it like everybody's gonna move in that direction and then it's just that's it it's just one more thing we've commoditized yeah

you have your pickup trucks you have your four-door sedan you have your your mid-size there's a few different designs nothing wrong with that I mean that's just that's just how evolution works

right like you get like at a critical point in design and it's okay it gets you from A to B that's all that matters yeah allows you to store stuff

that you need to store that's all that matters yeah and then you know if you really want to go all Mo Ninja you can get your Civic and add all the

the things to it yeah the Cybertruck are you a big Cybertruck fan? I have a weird relationship with that car I kind of I kind of find it awesome

at the same time it's like I you know if it came out exactly like that I'd probably get one because it would probably

scratch the itch that I that I have to like getting a a Humvee a regional Humvee I always wanted one of those don't have a place to put it

but like I kind of feel like the Cybertruck would give the same vibe do you think it ever comes to market? I think they will water down the design

yeah it was weird I don't ride Teslas often like I took an Uber Teslas feel cheap yeah it's weird

it really feels cheap yeah it's got that like you know kids toys it feels like a Pixel yeah it's got that

Fiat vibe to it I actually saw I was in the Whole Foods parking lot I was getting to my car to put the groceries away and

there was a Honda Prius backing up into the the lane in the the parking lot then there was a tesla backing up at the same time they crashed into each other they didn't stop each other no i was trying to wave i was waving at the lady in the prius like you guys are coming and just ran into each other prius is fine tesla was pretty fucked up well that's that's well i mean cars nowadays are designed to absorb all the impact right yeah but like i mean you're talking about like people may be going five

miles an hour like come on right yeah take a little uh how do you how do you view building your products so they don't so they they they last like i can stick an open dime up my butt pull it out and plug it in it's funny um is this how long is this thing gonna last uh you know it's hard to tell but we we have sort of like two tracks right of thinking like so cold card is trying to be secure right and security is a moving target so the plan is make something good right the last but we will keep on improving the security and improving the security is just not software right it requires hardware changes too so we have to create the new thing to to evolve on that so we try to make it like a price point set of trade-offs that like you know 100 something

is very cheap for you to defend your money, right? I mean, you pay more of that in bank fees per year and you probably hold less money in your bank account. But buying 15 CDs is much cheaper. Right. Oh boy, the Wookiee. Yeah. Sorry to interrupt.

No, I mean, the Wookiee is always funny. It's like clippy. You should make it pop up on the screen there. Um, and, uh, um, you know, but we use like high quality polycarbonate plastic, right. To be clear and like, you know, use a thick PCB board and, you know, product has a soul, right? Like, like to put the details in the PCB. It does have a soul.

This thing, this thing has a soul. Right. Like it has a feel to it. And so with these things, we try to make them like, like, you know, we hope it lasts a long time, right? like we try to to make them like be quality well made yeah um it's all made in canada um you know the open dime it fails forward so like you know if there is any problems with it it's it's gonna probably fail before you deposit any money on it so you know so far all the the

issues to spin were people who you know accidentally sort of you know ran their cars over or like over an open dime or, you know, and they send it to our lab and, you know, we take it out. It's designed to be that way. I mean, I can't promise you that we can do it, but so far it's been success. I've had an open dime go through the laundry

and I was able to plug it in successfully. You know, electronics can take a lot. I mean, you know, they're baked at like 200 degrees, 300 degrees, depending on the part, you know, some parts are much higher, but they're designed to take it and then they're like washed right after they get soldering to get you know so it's like these things do go through some the problem is them going to water like on because that's when you

get it short wait what was that like you you can't put electronics that are like on right they have power going through them in water that's that's really one yeah but you know they're always off so yeah yeah well and it seems like your your product suite is expanding beyond like direct electronic i mean you're showing me the demo of the sats cards yeah yeah the cards are cool because um they they allow us to finally like lower the price point like because you know it's a lot less parts it's just one chip and antenna inside plastic right uh so it's like an nfc it's like kind of like a hotel key right um and all the logic and everything lives in just one chip right um so we can make a fairly like resilient cheap product right that's like you know semi-disposable

in a way right um yeah how do these products work so you have this uh the signer the tap signer and the sats card yeah so um i did like a whole livera episode where like we go through like each part of it um if people want to hear about the technical part of it but it's essentially like you know hotel card uh and uh you we still need wallet integration right so like blue wallets and whatever um we actually have a bounty 25 000 uh for somebody to make an sdk in react.js for uh for the NFC implementation for the phone wallets. Oh yeah. But then essentially like you just tap, right?

There you go. You tap and the deposit address shows up and verified. It's like. It's great. It's like magic. It is. It's like NFC is just, it's so cool, so cheap. And it's already on everything, right?

It's like, it's such an underutilized technology, right? I mean, you know, in Canada, we have had tap for credit cards for a long time. You guys, you guys leapfrogged that here in America with the phone tapping for credit cards, right? It's so much pleasant, like more pleasant experience. So, you know, the same now with the cards, it's like, you know, the tap center is like a, it's an actual harder wallet, right? I mean, it's a different set of trade-offs security, of course, you know, it's not your

cold card, but you know, for smaller amounts or for multi-sig, it's like you have a cheap thing that you tap and that's it. So how does it work? What's going on? okay so with the the sets card um so similar to an open dime similar yeah it's it's an open dime yeah with 10 slots so you're going to be able to reuse it 10 times okay uh and there is a a pin on the back uh so you know when you want to spend you tell the wallet i want to sweep and then it's going to ask for the pin on the card to unlock the private key and then it sweeps just like open

dime does so if you just flash that with the qr code and the pin can somebody watching this sweep that no no okay no it'd have to tap okay right yes uh there's a handshake that happens so you tap and the phone the wild on your phone is what's allowing you to yes it's it's asking say give me the private key yes and and the card is gonna say okay give me the pin okay right yes and that's how it unlocks and then the the tap signer uh similar but like for any bitcoin transaction right essentially it blind signs anything with a pin you can change the pin you can you can also back up the private key it comes out encrypted so save it in your cloud what's uh what's a hypothetical like user scenario with that right well is multisig yeah for this yeah so so like

say for example you know you're using a um you know like a a wallet that that does like multisig where they have one key kind of like mon or something like the moon or something like that right um you know you could have an extra authentication right or like really an extra signer where you tap so because here's what happens right outside north america uh people are not going to be able to afford a hundred to a hundred dollar uh device um with uh for them to sign transactions right realistically speaking right so we need something cheaper and if they have it on your phone wallet and they're out on the street

you're going to get mugged the guy's going to say well everybody has bitcoin now give me your bitcoin from your phone with this I left my card at home you can't sign and then for the multisig part you can have say a white label

version of this for Unchain and then it's like you have one more private key and this private key this card is resilient so you toss this in a safe deposit box somewhere right and you have one marquee that you

don't have to deal with you know and this is just Bitcoin signing so you could sign messages too so people want to

use this for their safe for their safes right or for whatever NFC thing you want as long as you can do

Bitcoin SPAC it's a signing thing yeah so your mobile wallet would basically just be like a

skeleton wallet and then you can prove my error and I have this or you can have a key but it's like say a 202

or a 203 and you have another backup somewhere else so like you know you just can't sign or you know

you want to open closed channels you know for lightning you know that kind of stuff so this is an example of something

that I would have never thought of coming to market whenever I thought of the evolution of Bitcoin wallets and interaction with your private keys

something like this never came to mind being able to have a card and so a technology like NFC making this possible is pretty... Yeah, because, you know,

cards, all the smart cards had contacts, right? So you need a cheap reader. You're not going to have a cheap reader on your phone. No. Right? So that's why they resolved

the NFC problem, right? Like the contactless stuff so that you could have cards that don't have contacts and you could go tap around and do your thing. It's still essentially proof of presence, right?

Because you need to be close to it to read. And then the CVC, GVC, which credit cards have been using for half a century, right? It's just a pin that really guarantees that. So like, you know, we're going to ship these with like a sleeve, RF sleeve so that it doesn't get red. It's like a Faraday cage.

Exactly, yeah. But like, you know, say you don't use it in your wallet. Most wallets nowadays have protection. But like say yours don't, right? And somebody just taps you in the butt, you know, at the subway or something, right? You know, they still need the pin. Yeah. So they can't really.

It's a layer of protection. Exactly. Yeah. It's fascinating stuff. It really is. I mean, NFC is magic. It really is magic.

It is. I love it. Where it's like, what's worst case scenario? Like NFC, like how robust is NFC? Is there a potential where like somehow the NFC, I'm completely ignorant to this.

The NFC protocol could like get corrupted across all. No, no, no, it's local, right? So like it has nothing, to do with the cloud okay like it's like it's a radio on your phone and this is essentially like

kind of like a radio that gets like by essentially there's a coil that makes the it powers this up because this doesn't have a battery right so essentially by an induction it creates a field that powers the chip and then does this thing okay so it's radio communication which is pretty robust yeah yeah I mean it's it's pretty you know like

it's like just go to a hotel right I mean the cards always work unless they cancel your keys there's no potential of that with us obviously the design space

seems to be expanding for Bitcoin wallets and interactions with the Bitcoin protocol we were talking about squares hardware wallets been getting a lot of flack

but you said you're happy just like that people are doing things differently yeah i mean like stop making the same shit like go make something else like completely different you know like you know i don't think square's wallet is gonna be a wallet that most bitcoiners are gonna use but i think it's a wallet that like you know a billion people could use yeah right so it's a completely different thing i mean it's like people with different amounts of money different needs different countries right um it's the same with this i mean you know realistically speaking you know i'm i'm personally not going to put a bunch of money you know in a in a phone wallet which people shouldn't use for a lot of money anyways you know what i mean like tap around like no i

mean you know i'm still going to use my cold card code for real money right it's you know and and i really think that people just have multiple devices right manies of them like you know i have a cold card for operations right like for for like the spending money of the company and then i have for the cold storage of the company and then i have it for cold storage myself you know i mean like you just have a lot of them that's they have different thresholds you know i'm not gonna like i'm okay putting the usb one for you know for spending money whatever right Yeah, it's the thing about that too, like how do we, the UX around that wallet management is similar, like I have a cold card for the business, I have one for personal life, one for multi-sig, like just tracking all that and the practice around that. Bip85 helps a lot.

How so? Well, you can have one original seed that's like very, very cold that then sort of like seeds other devices, right? Yes, but it's also like tracking that

without putting in like a Google spreadsheet. Well, I mean, being your own bank comes with responsibilities, right? I mean, when you think about it. But are there services that can be provided

that make it easier and give you more peace of mind? Yeah. Yeah, there's always going to be a trade-off, right? I mean, you know, collaborative multisig, right? it's great

it really is but you know you're sharing your your money Flaxman had a nice spec for for doing

some blind key thing where essentially yes I really like this one yeah I can't remember the exact spec essentially

but essentially it was like you could get into a multi-sig where you create a parent private key and then you can spin off another

HD wallet below that oh yeah it was BIP32 it's deterministic private keys so then you can give private keys

to your family right but they don't know how much money there is yeah they don't know the balance yeah until

but if you're ever in a pinch and you need them to sign for something they can do it yeah you know there's all

kinds of drawbacks to that too you know seeing the money helps you know it's you know

another thing too is that you know people should not have you know like watch only while it's on their phone

for real money either, right? Because if the bad guy knows how much money you have, he knows how much to punch you. So even if you don't have the signing capability, you know, and also, I mean,

like phones are fully, fully backdoor than everything else, right? So like, you know, the phone is a place for you to have like wallet money, right? You don't carry your life savings

in your wallet in cash. No. Right? So, you know, most people who are handling real money are doing that on a computer. They're going to have

probably a cleaner computer and they're going to do it that way, right? I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. You know, this idea that people are going to just do everything on their phone. You know, it's silly. Like, you know,

that's cool and all for your spending money. But, you know, once, you know, you want accounting, you need notes, you know, like it's like a real thing. Yeah. You need to secure that data.

Yeah. It's not going to happen on your phone. Exactly. Like, you know, it's like, i don't like the sort of like one solution fits all for things when people get arguing about wallets it's just it's silly right because different people have different needs and most people have many different needs at the same time too yeah i am one of those people somebody like runs a business that accepts bitcoin invoicing people are streaming us bitcoin right

now as they're listening to this podcast like we need somebody to build an accounting system for podcasting 2.0 oh man bitcoin accounting is rough it is those those basis costs

of you know because like you know we're a shopping cart right it's like you know

part of the revenue is bitcoin part of the revenue is credit card right yeah it's fun it's not fun

make it legal tender just make just let us let us do our thing please especially for paying invoices paying people

right I mean like doing cap gains every time you pay like a stupid small thing it's really really makes it difficult yeah it could get better it will i think because there's no there's no alternative there is none so i was talking about luke roman earlier this week i don't necessarily think the politicians are going to do it but if you think

of the game theoretical thing and luke described game theoretically people in the department of defense here in the united states people at the like the nsa and other intelligence agencies that are like war gaming like how the geopolitical chessboard unfolds yes we don't obviously we don't like the nsa it's a dragnet surveillance intelligence agency but they do have the capability to again play this game theory through and his sources and in the defense industry are like yeah like actually like the game theoretical move that the u.s should move make is is accepting bitcoin it's like having americans just thrive in the bitcoin stand and let them run yeah when politicians have bitcoin in their pockets they're not gonna like go after it because they're going

after their own it's like you just look at the best way of looking at this like well it's not even like the politicians incentives it's purely like okay sure we're getting fucked in the reserve currency status and these countries are going to try and create their own reserve currencies the way to trump card them is to be like actually Bitcoin is cool. Yeah I don't know I'm very skeptical because they

still want the money printer they're just going to want a different one. They're going to want to come up with something else. Well no the option of yes there is going to be another money printer but it's not going to be theirs. So like would you rather there be a money printer you can't control or

fucked up i think you're just gonna have both it's like you're gonna have like you know government shit coin of some sort right and then you're gonna have bitcoin and they're gonna have to have bitcoin because that's like it's gonna be the the thing where value is stored right yeah but like but just like the the moats that we get right from politicians having the asset it's very helpful to move things forward in a better way for us right um at least in the transitory period so so like you know look at what politicians can do with equities it's like criminal it's totally criminal right because they have a lot of equities they are not gonna close loopholes or do whatever like they're just gonna you know create this very complex scenario where

they can do stuff and get away with it right once they have bitcoin they're gonna do the same right and and like once more bitcoin uh public trader companies have bitcoin in their treasuries as well you know politicians don't get reelected if they tank the market so if a lot of this they you know if a lot of these companies have bitcoin they can't fuck with bitcoin because market goes down so it's a beautiful game theory right there it's all moat you have some deterministic optimism right that's right it is deterministic man what do you mean by this as i described that to the freaks so it's just this concept that like you know based on an input right like you understand what's the next number going to be right kind of like how bitcoin works

right so we know which address is going to be created next based on an index because we have a function that does that based on an input or a secret so uh i i i feel like nature works this way everything works this way right you have a certain determinism right um that things will happen in a certain way because you can't cheat physics. Physics are physics. It's just, you can call the pronouns whatever you want, but like, you know,

there's a certain way. You have a dick. Right? There's a certain way in which nature works. We can create whatever constructs we want around it, right? But like, you know, the tree is going to grow. Yes. Right? So, so, you know, Bitcoin

is this new entity that exists now, right? Like you have a fauna flora whatever right but like you have now this thing based on math that is self-sufficient as long as we feed it electricity right and and what's really cool about that is that it's totally deterministic as well right because we have deterministic supply right we have uh the math of it is deterministic as well right and you know that's that's the optimism there right like i mean there is there is no other way for us to to resolve our our near future uh without it really i mean do you see any scenario in which we stop feeding it electricity i mean technically speaking

even if we lost like you know a lot of the money wouldn't matter as long as somebody else cannot have it yeah so i there's always gonna be countries that don't like you right so they we'll go there like look at Snowden right he went to Russia right like

because countries are going to act antagonistically to each other right and you know if US doesn't like Bitcoin well Russia is going to like Bitcoin

yeah if Russia doesn't like Bitcoin well US likes Bitcoin right so that's just how humans work and we can't escape that right

so Bitcoin really plays to the most like sort of basic ways humans perform around like economics right

yeah I just hope we don't fuck it up here in the US things here are going surprisingly well of course they're going to try to like cuck it like you know but they can't really

so they're going to do a bunch of stuff it could get a lot worse but it's not going to succeed long term it's going to slow things down and annoy people it's just going to be nonsense it's kind of like flying, they can't prevent people from flying so what do they do? They make you like strip

you know what i mean like go through machines that cause cancer you know all kinds of shit but he is still flying yeah right um and uh um you know i think i don't know i'm very hopeful i think we're just gonna have like some growing pains right we're gonna have some short-sighted moves but at the end we win right we already won it's just people are just catching up to it yeah just not everybody realizes it how sitting today march 17th 2022 somebody who's been in the industry and building in the industry or shit like almost a decade now right over a decade over a decade like how would you imagine the bitcoin is where it is today over a decade ago when you started building

I mean, it's just so funny, right? Because back in the early days of Bitcoin, it's like, you look at this shit, it's like bad shit crazy and there's absolutely no way it's going to work. It's almost better if it came into Bitcoin a little later, like in the 2012, 2013 kind of thing. Because like, at least there's like, you know,

like there's a narrative, there is some educational stuff, right? But you know, magical internet money. Like, I mean, this is retarded. It's not going to go anywhere, right? And here we are, right? Where every single world geopolitical sort of like event that happens has a Bitcoin story on it. Like, it's amazing.

You know, we used to believe Bitcoin was for payments. Yeah, I mean, you're saying that last night. Yeah, it's the only trace that was, that I remember, one of the only people saying is the story of value, right? I mean, and, you know, we were making payment terminals. How stupid is that? um and you know it's fine we learn right and things sort of evolve and i i think i think we all have a much better understanding of what this new thing is and and it's sort of doing well um it's a lot of fun you know the people working on it absolutely brilliant um

it's it's you know and it pays it's like it's a monetary thing it's like it's money handling thing it's not a toy right it's that's the cool thing about it it's like it really is not a toy it's not a photo sharing app it's not like you know it's like it's a it's a tangible meaningful thing to people yeah it has bitcoin's tangible it's kind of funny it has i mean it's yeah it's like it's industrial in a sense like it's certainly not a toy it's industrial in the sense that you have to respect it it's fully utilitarian right like i mean that's it it's like you know you can push your your your artistic words into an op return right but like but the thing is utilitarian and and it's just so cool to see like smart people working on a thing that helps humanity for change

and two like a thing that that has like it's pure intent is economical it's financial right so like if you just do the thing right like you make money so it monetizes everything right um in a in a sort of like more sort of moral way in a way like it's immoral but at the same time it's just like it's a much more future looking thing right just the time the time preference It's just, it's a line of the future, right? Yeah, it's just so cool. Which is another thing people is hacking Bitcoin for its energy use.

Like you got to think about the second and third order effects as well. I mean, I think the first order effect of Bitcoin using a lot of electricity is actually a good thing. It makes us more energy efficient, but the lowering of time preference really shifts the opportunity cost

of energy expenditure in real time. I mean, you know, Germany, right? I mean, Jesus Christ. I mean, who turns off nuclear reactor because of like a screaming autistic child on TV. Well, they started it before in their defense. They started it like 20 years ago before she was even born.

You know, it's so sad, right? Because most of reactors, I'm not an energy expert or anything like that. But like, as I understand, most of them are like, you know, 50s technology. Like we don't even have scale, like new nuclear technology in deployed. Yeah.

look up the the Adams curve car please but I think because I just think the believe it's the Adams curve but I mean this this chart just like shows how how bad

we fucked up the energy like the society runs on energy it drives me insane I'm supposed to have a flying car okay with a with a triple A nuclear reactor I want like triple A size nuclear reactors. Okay.

So like, it's like I have them even to power all devices because they make the voltage right. It's like I can power my like 80s Walkman with like a nuclear reactor. Right. That is the way it was supposed to be. Like, it's just so silly. Yeah. No, it's really, it's really silly. And I'm sorry I have my phone out because I'm looking for this here.

I've got it right here. I'll text it to your car. But like this, so this chart that we're about to pull up, it shows at some point around 1971, we, we just fucked up how we use energy and like, we, we went astray somehow. All right. I mean, you have something like as remarkable as the Manhattan Project, right? Like absolutely remarkable what they did in the span of time that they did. Oh, by the way, supply chains on that is kind of funny. Okay.

So do you know how I was saying that like, you can't just make things just because you want to make the things, even if you have the money to make the things. Yes. You still need very complex supply chains and the right people and all that stuff. Like Americans were using German leafs to do some of the parts for that project.

German what? Leafs. Oh, leafs. Right. And because they're precise in a certain way. And like, so they still had to sneak those in. Like they couldn't just make the Leafs at any cost

in America. We're anti-Germany, but can you just send us the Leafs? Right? It's amazing that you can't escape those things. So this is the curve I was talking about. Look at this. What's the blue line represent car? And the red line?

Yeah, so the Henry Adams curve. That's the Henry Adams curve. I believe it was a descendant of the Adams President Adams here in the United States but he had his curve

it says like population's growing you're going to need energy to grow with it which the red line is what it's supposed to be

and again it flopped at some point in 1971 it just flatlined it's so sad right because we need more energy

we want to use all the energy everything and more right because human using energy

means humans flourishing right like it's like we want to make more things use more things you know it's like sure you have to be smart about like you know all the materials you use and you know how things are going to be handled after like end of life whatever but like but the point is more use more stuff yeah like but so how do we how do we get that narrative as obviously we have malthusian fear spells that taken over the world we're bad humans are bad why do we get to use energy well the good thing is there's natural selection happening right now those like those people holding signs you know

like we are the carbon we want to end right like or like don't have babies great don't have babies you know i i was joking right that i'm on this like now mission i'm not gonna it's like bitcoiners cannot retire and bitcoiners have to reproduce yes it's like this is how you win there's a lot of big winners on the sidelines right now are just like they're smart

we need them yes go produce and reproduce yes Jimmy Song gave a very compelling speech last night about

why you should reproduce and how women especially should take pride in reproducing it's such a beautiful gift that you give the world

it's amazing like you have a little bioreactor that makes clones like holy shit like I mean when you think about the complexity of

something like that we still like we can't make animals in a vial through the whole process that are not very simple ones the idea we can produce a human inside another

human it's like to go it's crazy it's insane no it is funny what we were alluding to earlier is there were people on the corner here at 6th and Congress like right outside the Bitcoin Commons holding up these signs like stop having kids do it

if you believe that don't have kids I got enraged though like first and it was just like purely like environmentalist

like thinking that's a good message to say like how have we gotten so fucked up that we think that like humans

are bad yeah but it's like you know it's like the idea of like impossible meats and things like that right like you already

have a a bioreactor thing that makes energy dense sorry

nutrient dense food it's called a cow or I mean a steer because you eat the steer but like you know like

this thing goes out there with it's whatever like seven stomachs how many stomachs eight stomachs well nth amount of stomachs

ruminates all the cellulose right cellulose and like takes all the nutrients and then you know

stores it for you for when you're ready to eat it right but they're burping they're burping right they're they're burping too much we need to murder them all but then like and then we go try to like eat their food i mean it's listen i like a solid here and there it's nice it's color right but like that's that's my food's food like i mean because i cannot process cellulose right like it's

like we we don't process that stuff right no this idea of like you know a doctor telling you have metamucil it's insane the food pyramid is one of the biggest psyops in human history totally right

I mean like eat this crap that's gonna literally kill you literally it's gonna give you diabetes and kill you eat 12 servings

of this and one or two servings of meat maybe once or twice I mean we can go like food Nazi Germany and say like

hey you know without this like health passport that identifies you you cannot enter this establishment right but like

for a virus it's not going to kill like anybody who's like you know like in some form of shape yes right but then we can't call people fatty like like close your mouth like you know like that you just lose weight and then you're not at risk so like you know if we're okay with vax passports we should be okay with telling people what to eat we're telling people like how to prevent themselves both are wrong i mean i think people should just be free to be as big as they want and sort of like and also make their own medical choices but like you want logical consistency if you're telling

them please right like a little bit yeah that's the you can't expect that in the clown world no clown world has really I love that meme it's just so perfect shout out to Ben Kaufman for taking the meme and running with it clown world today it's

there is no other way to describe it right like it's just so beyond because you know it's always been sort of government a narrative whatever narrative right but like we got to a point now that's just so it's like you're watching yeah it's literally a joke but and i also think it's important it's actually a very important meme where i think one of the avenues one of the most effective avenues of getting away from the clown world is making fun of it and so like highlighting like ridicule does go a long way it does affect people it does change it does i think we've crossed a certain line now

where you cannot argue it's just so absurd the thing that they're presenting you with that you can't even engage as like you're wrong here and there or like this is not exactly that or whatever you just can't

rationally engage because it's just so clown world it's just so absurd that like the only thing to say is like are you an idiot? Really like I can't really interact with like many friends anymore

or like it's just how do you handle it? And it allows you to like not waste time. Right. It's just like you're a clown. No, I'm not going to sit here

and debate you back and forth. Like it is pure clown world. If you don't recognize that you're a clown. I'm going to go back to building important shit that actually matters. You know, props to Udi

because you know it's the same way that I have fun staying poor meme. It's like, you know it gets to a point where it's like fine.

Yeah. this information's out there you know like but it really is bitcoin that allows us that to say you're an idiot right because you cannot be canceled it's the fuck you money aspect of it it really is like it's this capacity of being you know economically capable of not being destitute right because that's what they do yeah if you make fun of them too hard in the true and you're stuck in the traditional system they cut you off call you a nazi misogynist transphobic you know if you honk too hard in Ottawa, like that's a crime. If you honk twice, if you honk honk,

you're saying hail Hitler. That's right, like where do they get this shit from? Just because they found it on 4chan or like on like Urban Dictionary, it doesn't mean it's true. It goes back to like the white supremacy thing. Oh my God. When 4chan, remember that?

Yeah, like you can't make this shit up. Right. It's, you know, I guess if it wasn't for Bitcoin, I'd be crying. I can't imagine a world without Bitcoin. I mean, that's, I mean. Oh, like what do you do? Like you buy gold?

Right. Honestly. And you try not to get the platform with like gold bars? I honestly think like we just like digital panopticon. We literally either devolve into like a Mad Max scenario or everybody's just hunger game slaves. Yeah. I mean, you know, like people don't want freedom, right? Just a better sell.

Like really, like people don't want responsibility. like you know like just look at the amount of people like you know they get gifted Bitcoin they lose it why should people

want responsibility oh man I don't have an answer to that like you know I can only speak for myself I like it

right like nobody it's like the freedom right like it's like I can do things invent things or whatever

think things it's fulfilling yeah but it does it's like it's more pain right like it's more like work

it's like And I think a lot of people just don't want that. No pain, no gain, right? Yeah, it is. Are we destined to just have a certain amount of people just not wanting responsibility? But I think it's also inherent to humans, right? Like, I mean, you know, humans want,

like we need governance, not government. Like, you know, people need to find ways of finding consensus and sort of, and optimizing things too, right? You don't want everybody deciding on stuff, But like, you know, if government wasn't so much in your life, you wouldn't care about politics as much. Right. It's pretty simple, really.

But like, you know, they control every single aspect of your life. So now you have to fight everybody because their choices will impact you. Yeah. Uh, and you know, people, um, people will prefer deferring the, the, the responsibility to somebody else who may be better at that responsibility than themselves. Or maybe they're not even better at that responsibility. They're just sociopathic enough. That's the idea, right?

The idea is you outsource things, you know, to people who are better at the thing than you are, right? but it clearly doesn't work like democracy ran its course yeah it was a cool experiment and all but it ran its course like you know

we need the next thing well that's that's controversial to say we're trying to spread democracy was it the CBC was running this piece saying that like freedom is

a bad thing it's a right wing term it's a right wing term yes what happened to the lefties that were like the people for freedom right

free speech free speech She was their, their shtick, right? Like all those things, like freedom of, of body autonomy and all this stuff. And all of a sudden it's like, well, until you war now it's like nukes, nukes, nukes, you know, like vax, vax, vax. And, uh, shut the hell up. Right.

Like, you're not allowed to say that. It's just so weird. Words are violence. Yeah. Words have no meaning anymore. Yeah. It's, uh, but you know, when, when people go work in sciences, right. Like, you can't do those things because, you know, the table doesn't care what you think, right?

Like, if you're making the table, you need to make the table to have legs. Like, and if you don't believe in legs, the table is not going to be there. It's not going to be a table. Yeah. Like, it's just so weird. But it's getting better. Is it getting better now? The pendulum is swinging.

I think. You think so? Yeah. Why do you think so? I mean, you know, it's just, I think, I think the COVID stuff sort of was the last sort of big push, you know, the Ukraine thing a little bit, but you know, the war stuff, you know, listen, it got people into Iraq for WMDs, right? So the war thing is like a true and tried lie that's going to be with us forever, right? Like we're always going to have a new war to go fight. but the COVID thing

was interesting because I think it was like it really sort of show separated people in society like the people

who will follow I ended up in Texas I ended up in Austin, Texas and it's fair I mean like especially in the beginning something is happening right

there's no information people get confused yeah we had I mean remember the first episode we were talking about like what mask to wear listen I'm a prepper

right so like you know there's shit going on I prep you know you do research and you figure out

you resolve it right um and then information comes in and you sort of you know adjust and change right but you know you give a crisis to a politician right i mean you know that's all they want so they're going to amplify amplify amplify and you could really see the people that will follow along people who aren't um but i think we really found a lot more people who don't go along with government narratives who are from different camps right so like you have like you you know, the vegans who are not for like vaccine, right. Together with the meat people who are not, you know, so like you find these new alliances, right.

And it's interesting because even if you start fighting again over other things, they will still have an understanding that you, you do have like a capacity of thinking for yourself, right. So there's a new found respect for different sort of subgroups. I think that that was a nice thing. Yeah, it's almost like, so we have like,

everybody's been pushed to like a hyperpolar perspective. And now it seems like it's gotten so hyperpolarized that people are like meeting on the other side, like in the middle of like, oh, fuck. Yeah, it's like, and it keeps on going back and forth like that, right? Yeah, yeah. It was, it's the same with the Trudeau thing. These things are like gifts in a way, right?

If you survive them, right? Like economically speaking or bodily speaking, right? because you know this is politicians showing how far they'll go

right like and that's a very important thing to know yeah what I just hope is that people aren't

like the sunk cost isn't so deep with people's dependence and trust in politicians that they can back away and be like

you know what I don't need you that's why I mean again with COVID too like states asserting their autonomy was very good to see here's a good example

So Canada had like insane vaccination rates, like super high, right? Super low children vaccination rates. The parents were like, fuck no. Like, nope, right? So it's, but you see there, right? Like even people who may follow, right? The narrative and sort of like, you know,

people still have some critical thinking left, right? I mean, and there's only so long you can drag these people along, right? now they're trying to create this whole like all these new mask narratives about just being

cohesion in society and all this shit it's insane yeah keep it forever keep it on do it you know it's good

because now we know yeah like it's like let's further sort of like you know separate like so we know

where people stand yeah and who to avoid and you know it's so cool you go inside Uber's and you say you just tell the driver

like listen you know I really don't care if you wear a mask right and they're like so gladly take it off well then I got one last week where the guy was like where's your mask I was like I'm not wearing a mask how do I know you're not vaccinated

I was like I'm not vaccinated you know this lie that they sold like you know if you're vaccinated somehow you don't transmit it's just so fucking dumb like the whole thing is just so bad it's completely illogical

to like a child Well, and especially if you consider the fact that, I mean, what they marketed in the beginning, it turned out to be nowhere near that. Yeah. I mean, you know, but like, you know, for an older person, maybe it makes sense. Go get Vaxxed, who cares? Yeah. Right? Like, it's just, can we just stop talking about people's medical choices?

Like, go back to that? Your body, your choice. Yeah. Yeah. But it is, it's crazy. People clinging on. That Uber driver, too. it was like yeah

pandemic's been treacherous I'm still very scared yeah driving an Uber I mean but you know think about it right I mean

people were scared shitless I was in the very beginning I mean I was sticking thermometers on my butt

and people were like like banging this message for two years yeah like I mean people were scared like neurotic scared right like

it's hard to walk back from that it's gonna take like people are PTSD from it I know yeah it's uh

think about what it did to the kids too that's that's the scariest thing yeah no i had the red line there i'm like kids are not gonna wear a mask period no my my son is not wearing one but i mean i have if you want to take a flight to the kid you have to yeah well he's my son will never wear a mask yeah well it's like fine then kids are not flying you know it's like but i know i have children very close to me who were forced to wear masks and did and now that even though they don't have to wear one they had like this this mental crutch with it that they need to wear it you know i made sure to always like say to my kids like and this is a three and a half year old right like like so daddy why are you wearing a mask it's idiotic but i cannot enter

this establishment if i don't wear one yeah you know i you know like it's complicated right because like there's there's a up to a certain level that he can stand your ground right let's put it this way that like and become like you know you gotta function society to a certain extent right and but at least i wanted him to know that is idiotic you know like deep in there yeah not like not be the parent like hey this is just so you protect people from getting a virus you know at least you're gonna get the honest narrative

like what do you like speech kids speech developmental years like trying to mask like three to five year olds have you tried running with a mask no you can't right so like imagine kids just run all day they run all day and they're snotting in it

those masks are clean it's absolutely disgusting ah fuck covid put in kill covid so we're done with that I don't know man I think they're trying to bring it back

they'll try but I don't think it's like they can but they would have to like you know really do another carping videos but in North America or something

people falling on the street oh god crazy times hopefully that was the the height of the pendulum swinging in that direction. Yeah, I think we're moving back to good old war.

You know, like economy goes to shit, evade some country. Like, really, like, this is a classic. Yeah. I mean, he goes back way, way, way back. Oh, the ancient Rome times.

That's right. I mean, way, way before that. You know, things are not good at home, you know, go kick the tent of another, like, tribe,

you know, It's like, yeah, the plebs are hungry. They're restless. Yeah. Let's send them to. That's right. The Gallic Wars. But it's, you know, it's a much more pleasant, it's awful, but it's a lot better than COVID.

What do you mean by that? You know, in terms of a narrative that you have to, to sort of like accept in your life. Yeah, it's easier. Yeah. I mean, it's war. Yeah. I mean, you know, we have like, you know, tens of thousands of years of human evolution that just made us accept war

to a certain extent, right? There's always going to be friction. I thought Bitcoin fixes war. Yeah, it's complicated. Yeah. I think it does-ish. I mean, it does change the dynamic of like invading places and things.

And it reduces the need for that friction, right? Especially if it's a currency tied to electricity and energy. I mean, if you don't have to go like get the energy or get whatever resource you're going to go.

Because, you know, countries, modern countries don't go invade countries to get stuff aside from oil really I know actually that's not true

I mean Africa is a fucking disaster because of special minerals and cobalt all that stuff you know things

that make electric cars nobody wants to talk about those trade-offs yeah I know I mean why would you talk about that

and the Russian or excuse me gun dealers but straws are bad straws are bad the paper straws there's nothing more infuriating

oh man those things are awful and they're like they're actually worse for the environment yeah I mean it's the same with the bags for supermarkets right so a paper bag

is like something like 90 times worse for the environment you'd have to reuse a paper bag 90 times to be the equivalent of a plastic bag because of weight and transportation and everything else because it costs energy so the paper bag actually

pollutes more unless you reuse it 90 times I don't think keep on refolding that paper bag that's not happening it's

what are you gonna do right these nuanced explanations of things there I mean you look at the amount of like garbage masks

everywhere in the world that's yeah disgusting yeah one thing that was like sensical to me is like just make the plastic lid

so you don't need a straw you can just sip it like this right more ergonomic in that sense right but things are getting better

we need bitcoiners to build if you're on the sideline as a bitcoiner go build something really it's a lot of money to be made what is the opportunity here what's the size of the world's economy really

if you're inventing a money that's the prize there is the payment stuff there's the store of value stuff you know like there's many places to go so somebody got started early and you would explain that you started with the wrong

thing maybe made mistakes early on with the payment stuff you happy that you started early yeah I mean it's been fun like I mean imagine working on others like I can't imagine be working on other stuff like

it's been pretty surreal this week is being in the studio having you in town Jimmy's out there Justin Moon's hanging out it's essentially like Bitcoin Twitter but like in person

yeah and it's actually better too because you have like nuanced conversations that's right I think I think a lot of good shit is going to come out

of the commons in terms of production and quality conversations and shit like that yeah I mean you know there's you know

humans like need in person conversations right we do it is a lot of fun like you know like

the conference hopping thing you know gets old or whatever but like but the fun part of all this this events

is always sort of like you know you go and you like have conversations with people you've known for years that you only see

like once in a while in person and all that those side conversations really are like the prize of all this stuff it's extremely fulfilling

and you were saying this last night too it's crazy when you do get like even like the first time you meet it's like you just know i mean it's like you've been sort of talking to each other in some way or another right for like years yeah right and then all of a sudden you just meet but it's like you know each other and you don't even necessarily have to like talk to each other you're just like like each other's tweets or like retweets like yeah i've been retweeting your stuff for years and it's like oh i've noticed you retweeting my stuff for years yeah but you know it's like it's like when you're having a conversation right like with a few people it's like you're nodding you're smiling right like it's very similar to the liking and whatever

that's why twitter works it's like a public square yeah right and and like you're you are having a conversation even if you're just liking somebody's posts right and and then you have all the much better version of that in person right um much better than clubhouse yeah clubhouse was was fun but it was weird are you still on it no yeah I mean like

I don't even do spaces either yeah it was sometimes it's nice to like do some spaces where we like talk to the customers and sort of like have people

that makes sense that's the one caveat I'll throw in there I did like Clubhouse when it was a very specific topic yeah

like that was predetermined and there was a curation at who was discussing it it was fun sort of like

because it had been a long time since I was like sort of talking to noobs 101 kind of thing yeah that was that was

that was an interesting thing like the Bitcoin weekly meetup was fun but then like it turned into like you're just answering the same question yeah I mean you know explaining things

simply again to people who have no idea that was it was nice but you know there's only so many days you can do that for

and then it's like okay you can only explain gauge theory so many times before i can't believe those people showed up there and joined the conversation hey hey hey gauge theory fixes this that's right now we need to change bitcoin so that it fits gauge theory right isn't that uh i understand bitcoin but i i'm here to fix it word solid works man word solid

works techno babble man yeah shit coins exist so that's proof of that no i mean but shit coins are at least have like hey they have like truly sort of optimized de-financing suckers right like i mean it is incredible how good they are at taking money from people it's incredible hey yeah you put it in here you wrap it you throw it over here you get apy and then i get it is that it's like and then i take it it's like are we missing something there though i you know so here's the thing right I think there is a huge, huge market demand for, you know, creating financialized products, right? Like you can't deny that, right?

I think, you know, a lot of the shit coins essentially trying to address that, but in a scammy way, they're not doing what they claim to do. But, and Bitcoin cannot address those things either. Not at least not on Baselay, right? So, but what people maybe don't get is that this stuff

is a tiny market of the store of value market. Right? So Bitcoin is trying to address this. Right? The shit coins are trying to address this.

But they have marketing budgets because they're trying to sell to people. So they sound like they're this big. Bitcoin sounds like it's this big.

Right? But so it creates this weird dynamic. Right? It really does. But I mean you said

joking like definitional like does Bitcoin reduce the need for a lot of these exotic financialized products

there is obviously people who are in need mortgages or want to take loans out stuff like that but do

but it's more than that right so the thing is like you know you have to pick which window

of looking at Bitcoin you're talking about right if we're talking about post hyper Bitcoinization it's a different story

right like we don't know don't even know what that looks like how cash flow going to work i don't know but like now and in the foreseeable near future we need like you know if you don't have money you cannot withstand volatility right so you need stable coin yeah right like it's a necessary thing like you're already poor yeah right so you're gonna just

like keep your float and like try to trade it like you can't right so the stable coins do provide a service. They make sense to me. Right. And then we're going to have more of these things that resolve these immediate problems. Right. And they do.

It's just a lot of the stuff is really not sound. Right. They're really on top of like house of cards. Right. Some of them will fail. Some of them won't. I mean, you look at that,

they're still around. Right. And they, the FUD has been all kinds of stuff, but they're still around. It's, Tether is one of the, the toughest companies in the world.

It's amazing that... They have the US government on their necks for years. It's hard. And they do this without going to jail, right? So, you know, and it comes with sets of trade-offs, right? Is the Bitcoin price manipulated by Tether? Right. So like, I mean, they probably do have an outsized impact,

but it's not like manipulation is not a thing that exists. There is actors in the market and they're going to act on their self-interest. Right. And it's in everybody's interest to try to move the market too. Yeah. Well, there's two ways to put it. Manipulation doesn't exist or everything is manipulation. Exactly. So, oh, you just bought a coffee with Bitcoin. You're manipulating the mempool. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's the next FUD.

People love that. Love that Tether FUD line. Yeah. I mean, it's like the mempool FUD, right? With the fees. The fees are going to keep them small because people will now understand that Bitcoin is for savings. They're not going to spend, it's Gresham's law, right? I mean, they're going to spend all the shittier things. They're going to burn their furniture

for heat before they sell their Bitcoin. But think of the long-term security. It doesn't matter. We're secure enough. Right. I agree. I mean, and that's, we discussed this as well.

We've had a lot of discussions. People really discount the fact that there is revenue outside the block reward. Or there can be if you are a creative miner And you do a lot of stuff without waste heat, which can produce revenue that exists outside the block reward, which increases your threshold for mining. Right.

Then there's going to be a whole industry for, like, mining transactions that big mining pools are not allowed to. Oh, yeah. You know, they're just, they're going to charge, you know, like 10x, whatever is the fee, the going fee, right? And they're going to mine the block, the transactions that, you know, the other miners won't. They're going to get rewarded handsomely for that. Yes. You know, it's spontaneous order, right? Like, I mean, it's like the markets, we will figure this out.

Yeah. Do you worry at all about like the massive mega mines that are sprouting up here in the US? You know, it's a weird one, right? Because it's great. It's a good thing. But at the same time, it's like the only fear I have is, you know, those are the weapons, right? So like, you know, if government goes and takes them, they could do some serious damage. So, you know, maybe they just need a way of self-destructing them, you know?

It's just, I mean, it's pretty easy to destroy them. Yeah. You just have a drone fly over the EMP pulse and watch your magnetic pulse. No, I mean, it could do even better. Just have the miners look for an op return or something. And then they just, they go like, they turn off their own fans and go 100% and poof. What do you mean? So how would that work?

So you'd have to change, right? Because right now they only look for block headers, right? But let's say they start watching the chain to a certain extent in there, right? And then if you make a transaction that has a certain op return, they just go in self-destruct mode. Yeah, the government seizes it,

you go construct an op return transaction, broadcast it, gets mine. That's it. Man, that's creative, right? I never thought of that. I mean, it could be a terrible idea too. you know somebody would need

to explore this further I think maybe the EMP attack is probably more realistic EMP is not you know you need a lot of power

to do those things I mean I don't think you fit in a drone no? no to queue a mine something like that you need a lot of power

yeah that's why I mean I think hmm yeah you know it's much easier to just hack it in and turn off all the fans

that's a good point like you want to destroy a miner just turn off the fan yeah so you'd have to backdoor your own then you're like open yourself if somebody gets access to your systems and they manipulate you there trade-offs trade-offs trade-offs right that's why i like off-grid what are your thoughts on off-grid mining am i crazy for mining off-grid no it's great i mean if if that if it's economically viable to you do it like there is a bunch of guys buying uh like oil wells right and they do the they actually take the oil out

and then they plug them in on a miner for the gas that's left oh yeah do both I'm involved

in some of that yeah it's a great thing stranded energy right use it and I think it's much harder

to co-opt those operations if they're distributed unless they're on LTE yeah you were describing

this to me yeah anything that has an LTE mold in is very easy to triangulate right

and what was solution just do long-range Wi-Fi yeah you set it up yeah yeah professional long-range Wi-Fi yeah a lot harder to find it

wouldn't that won't mess up I mean latency is not like the massive problem but no it's still pretty fast yeah you know and then there's gonna

be stratum version three and version four and new stuff and all these things are gonna get a lot better yeah that's a crazy thing like did Satoshi think

about everything is that even when you just think about mining, being able to do it in these disparate locations the amount of data needed to send a hash to a pool is so minuscule Yeah, I'm still bitter about the fact that we doubled

the block size. Yeah, you're saying this too You know, it's just you know, if the block size was like, you know, a megabyte or so like you can, you know, we would go buy all the AM radio stations from all the failing radio stations, right?

And just broadcast like blocks how and then you with like a $10 device can download the blocks like it's just

and it's worldwide sort of like reach completely decentralized do you think that's big enough there's a big enough draw

because you'd have to hard fork to make the blocks oh yeah it's not gonna happen we're just gonna have to get clever and find another way

of doing it yeah how do we get clever with this i mean it is possible to broadcast a full block on hf in in like in less than 10 minutes but it's it's but you know it's not reliable it's it's complicated right so if you're really putting it for their correction there and like you know building you know like a lot of redundancies for each period like you want the data to be as small as possible right but you know it could be broadcasting like block headers to start there's like i don't know there's smarter people than

than me that does like this kind of protocol work to to come up with something well that's what i'm just gonna say how the fuck are you this fucking smart you know so much about so many different things it's gonna be like supply chain hardware running a business hunting prepping you know you just you're modern day renaissance man so read no i mean you know like i work with very smart people right i mean like you know like doc hacks is like absolutely beast i mean like you know he's the man who does most of like cold card firmware right like a lot of our harder design it's like you know we just just talk and figure out stuff but you guys are unethical now that you're close to us right what are you doing let's touch on that what uh what is the

be if what if people attack you I think I think the problem is like

most of the people most of the people don't understand licenses right

no clue and then people are fed sort of like a misunderstanding or a narrow understanding

of licenses so that you know people can sort of convey a certain narrative right

that before competition or whatever you know we think defensively as a company right that's why we make

harder wallets so if you're gonna attack my business with my own software economically right you're gonna

change that like we're not chumps right and you know there's a massive difference between

sort of you know sharing libraries or you know forking a certain library or something but when you fork

somebody's whole project like you know without contribution and you go try to compete with them. It's bullshit. Well, what is open source? What is ethical?

I guess we're getting the ethics of open source. No, it's, you know, I think, I think if you're adding to the world, right? If you're contributing, being that positive to society, right? Producing value, right? That to me is where morality comes from with this kind of stuff. So if you're simply like taking,

in order to just take competitively as well. You're not adding value. You're just diluting what's existing and you're not really creating anything new. And that's sort of like the issue that I have with some of this stuff. So you have to pick, because we live in a fiat world.

Not for long. But we do. so you know if somebody is gonna use your work with fiat money so like you know you go fundraise and now like you're gonna compete with somebody with their own

code and now they added fiat money like you know I'm not gonna sit around so like you know and most of the benefit you know code card is mostly it's always been essentially like single source right it's not like there's like a lot of people contributing to code cards

we write the code there's been contributors and grateful for them they're all fine if our license changed too you know the value of CodeCard comes from verifiable source code so that's

still there and we respect users right so our license is extremely permissive right so you can share you can sell your unit you can change the code you can do whatever you want you just can't start a company on top of our code that's all

it seems I mean yeah you put a shit ton of time yeah like there's like years right of work there you know

and this is the thing right like if you were like contributing to our project and sort of like adding value to it

we would probably have not changed the license because now we're like symbiotically sort of like adding value there right

so yeah it's I think it's it was the way to handle it in the world that we live in you know

we're not patent people we don't like it right it's like it's but again you live in a

fiat world right so you have to figure out how to handle these things against people

who are not playing fair yeah okay it's fucking it's like a murky yeah

it's a murky it's not very cut and dry there are no saints and it's like you know it's business and like

you know I want to make sure that you know it's a profitable company so that it can create new things yeah right

can I talk I think the competitor who took your I've been talking to him behind the scenes just trying to figure out what's going on

I think we're going to have him on get his perspective so I definitely want to get yours as well there was a I think what like truly pissed me off

is the narrative that was created around it like because you know we we shared a library with Trazor right

which we were contributors to and and it's a single library it's just one little library right it's not like

CodeCard is completely different design it's completely different thing right you know what these guys did it's completely different

they literally took everything yeah like you know even the bugs like you know it's like just remove the comments

it's just anyways whatever it was totally entitled legally speaking right because that was the license yeah

right no and the yeah and the Trezor thing too like one library it's not the whole no and that was thrust to you guys like oh you guys were

doing this with Trezor but as soon as somebody no it's bullshit right and you know it's just like a fascinating thing is it's very common

in most industries to share crypto libraries because makes sense right because that is not your

competitive advantage if anything is the opposite you want that's the library that you want the eyes on you want more contribution you want everybody using that

right so much so that we switched to Bitcoin Core's crypto library right LibSec so

you know it you know it's much better library has nothing there's no shitcoin vestigial stuff in it

right and but yeah so like you know to then create this narrative to sort of

you know make your thing look a little better you know that he didn't copy whatever no just you know at least fess up like it's like yeah you cloned it i think it there was a it was pretty plain yeah no i mean like you can see the code it's like you know yeah it's ridiculous that's the other thing too so that's like from you see this the hardware and the coin join flame wars or is an outside observer or just exhausting it is exhausting for us too we hate the drama yeah but we punch back that's the thing right you have to punch back right no it's like you know i'm not gonna take shit right it's like you know it's but you know this is tech it's just that you know a lot of people who who never worked in tech sort of like never saw the underbelly

because it wasn't public but man like you know in the beginning of computers i mean like it's always been something like that right because like people who create things are passionate

about their things that they create I mean you have infamous stories of Linus reaming people

out yeah Linus Torvald you know Linux is a shit coin it's not even Unix

Linux is a shit coin yeah that's right you're a Unix maximalist yes

that's right you're still writing Vim BSD and Darwin you use Vim oh yeah

you know VIs it's like it's nothing better to edit text or even emails like what is the Sublime man what about Sublime

that's right it's like yeah I know you know VI has a learning curve of like it's like a flat high like this and it goes like this but I highly recommend like go vi but people use vi on linux too yeah once you get over that learning curve it's like

vi is amazing you can't use anything else like after vi you really can't it's like awful it's like torture oh shit man well this has been fun yeah you gotta get your ass down to austin texas i know man it's funny because we've been chatting for like days now like you know it's a group like lots of and still here talking more

yeah you can fucking hear them out there I know like Justin Moon was just like like peeping through the window

there making faces that's the that's the beauty of the Bitcoin commons it's what we're trying to build here it's cool

in Austin Texas yeah I know Texas is cool yeah you know look at properties and see I didn't want to

bring that up I don't know if you want to keep that close you know it's still like it's still pretty exploratory

yeah it's exploratory yeah let's see hey all the Austin recruits send a nice message to Rodolfo here nah I mean

you guys you guys definitely showed everybody a good time here yeah it's nice that's nice well

it'd be nice to be closer to the source of these dope products yeah that would be interesting do you move the factory

you don't move the factory you're building very cool products I hope you know that thank you I'm very excited to get my hand

on the SADS card in the tab signer I can't wait to ship those things it is like magic like you're just holding your phone up and like having

like an NFC link pop up right away you click it like oh deposit here yes it's you know technology

is like right when it feels like magic right yeah that magic thing is it's like what technology

is supposed to be it's like 10x improvement in something the stats card is a 10x improvement of like oh shit this is

it's pretty cool much better than the open die I mean the open dimes incredible like having like plug yeah but you know it's an evolution thing

right I mean it's like it's that's how products work it's like you know you come up with the next thing we still want to make it just sentimental value kind of thing right

but like it's still the best wedding gift to give it's pretty cool yeah I've given so many open dimes as wedding gifts

you just tape it to the card and say text me and you want to figure out what the hell I just gave you please don't lose it yeah okay

call caps do not lose this yeah alright he was on the Joe Rogan show yesterday his products were yeah

now he's on TFTC that's right oh man that was hilarious Joe Rogan I'm front running you yeah these were all the builders come on Jamie

get real Bitcoiners there we gotta we gotta get you guys to be on the the hopium you're getting people to explain gauge theory when we really need them

to explain how to get right like imagine that right like wasting episodes and episodes of Rogan with that kind of audience like you know

moron like you know instead of like you know fixing the money fixing the world kind of thing

yeah it's a weird thing we gotta fix the money right now we pumped during this episode we're at 41,189 cuck bucks according to

my block clock mini right here there you go that's pulling from bitstamp we gotta get you a few more so that you can have

like different stuff showing at the same time yeah well when we do it remote Matt will have his when he turns it back on when it gets about $56,000

wherever it's stuck on he unplugged it at like 56 he's like I'm not plugging it back I have a few of those in the house like you know

that like the OG clock too it's like you know they just you know unplugged for whatever reason and it's so weird

to plug it back because the numbers are going to change a lot yeah that sentimental value like oh it's pretty funny it really is pretty funny it's like

having tabs saved of like you know like those price websites oh yeah like I have Bitcoin Bitcoin

remember that one yeah one of those but and he shows the price on the on the bookmark and it's like you know like two dollars

or whatever it's like holy shit remember that yeah you were bookmarking at two dollars wow

yeah not you but like yeah it was it was at all prices at some point yeah that's

that's one of my favorite things to do is go back to like old journals that I was writing in when I was first getting in I would always put the date and then put the Bitcoin price

and it's like holy shit I hope my kids go back and look at it like wow fucking legend right that meme

yeah what were you doing I can actually show you on this date that's right alright let's go talk with other Bitcoiners

that's right thank you hey thanks for having me man it's always a pleasure you like the studio it's been a fun week yeah this is awesome it's very professional

thank you it's very you know I also like the little sofa in front there cause like then you can

you gotta start having like a few more guys around oh we will we will yeah it's pretty cool we'll do a group

and Matt's not in town yet but at some point in the future we'll get all of us in town and do a big one that'd be cool alright

see you freaks peace and love okay