TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #339: The importance of bitcoin self-custody with Tyler Campbell

Episode Date: June 18, 2022

Join Marty as he sits down with Tyler Campbell from Unchained Capital to discuss the importance of bitcoin self-custody and multisig and what it's been like onboarding hundreds of people to Unchained's collaborative custody products. Follow Tyler on Twitter Shoutout to our sponsors: Unchained Capital Braiins HodlHodl Upstream Data TFTC Merch is Available Shop Now Join the TFTC Movement Main YT Channel Clips YT Channel Website Twitter Instagram Follow Marty Bent: Twitter Newsletter Podcast

What's up freaks, it's your boy Marty here to introduce this rip of TFTC. This is brought to you by our good friends at Unchained Capital. They're right down the offices here from the Bitcoin Commons where I am in Austin, Texas. And they have an IRA product. If you're not using it, if you have an IRA, if you're looking to transition your IRA into Bitcoin, you also want the ability to hold your own keys. Unchained's IRA product is ideal for that and they have the team to make it happen if you're saving Bitcoin for the long term.

it's worth considering saving an IRA which allows you to save Bitcoin on a tax advantage basis. Unfortunately most Bitcoin IRA providers require you to give up control of your keys if you've ever listened to my show you've probably heard me talk about the dangers of not your keys not your coins. Unchained Capital offers

a solution that make it simple for you to set up a Bitcoin IRA while keeping control of your Bitcoin keys through Unchained you can take care of everything you need to set up a Bitcoin IRA including the paperwork, purchasing Bitcoin, setting up a cold storage vault in your IRA's name and putting the keys in your hands to fund the IRA. You can easily transfer from an existing retirement plan or start a new IRA from scratch

with traditional and Roth IRAs available. Learn more by scheduling a complimentary consultation. A member of Unchained's team will be happy to walk you through the available options and answer any questions. Schedule your consultation today at unchained.com slash IRA. Tell them a TFTC sent you. This rip was also brought to you by my good friends at Brains. Brains. Brains is doing incredible things. They're bringing you

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this is me doing a live ad read we're making sure that FREAKS is up Lab. I'm pretty sure that it is. So reach out to the Upstream Data team. If you're looking for a black box, if you're looking for a hash hut for as a utility or an oil and gas operator wants to take advantage of stranded and wasted natural gas, tell them the TFTC sent you. All right. They have a form, especially if you're doing the oil and gas and utility mining. They have a form that you'll fill out. They'll say, how did you hear about us? Please click TFTC. Let them know

that we sent you. Again, Upstream Data, Steve Barber, godfather of natural gas mining, Hashut, incredible product. I'm a user myself. I haven't got my black box yet. Can't wait to get it though. I will get one eventually. Enjoy the strip freaks. You've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free. if you talk about a fed just gone nuts all all the central banks going nuts so it's all acting like safe haven i believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency bitcoin wins in the world of fiat currencies bitcoin is the victor i mean that's part of the bull case for bitcoin if you're not paying attention you probably should be

what is up freaks I don't know if we're live right now we don't have car in the office today he's down in Mexico doing some scouting for the next Bitcoin Plus Plus conference let me just check Twitter to make sure the tweet went out yeah we're live

sorry for that dead air freaks sitting down with Tyler Campbell the technical director of the concierge onboarding team at Unchained Capital we'll get it out of the way in the first sentence disclaimer sponsor of the podcast and the newsletter and

I mean it's known if you're a freak we mention you many times this is the creator of our beautiful intro to TFTC thank you I was going to say this is coming in after the intro for folks listening after the live recording so it's kind of a surreal honor to be on thank you for having me well it's an honor to have you

on sir pull that mic a little closer to your face we just did a mic check there we go like this yeah it's perfect perfect perfect why the hell did you make an intro for us man that was it was before covid too which is the craziest thing before uh before the clown world really started its rise um it was february of 2020 and there was that really bullish clip on cnbc and i was listening to rhr uh back living up in minneapolis at the time and i remember matt specifically you know when you listen to audio podcasts and like you kind of have the memory of where you were and what you were doing so i remember i was uh i was driving home uh from work and i was listening to rabbit hole recap and i heard matt say we really need an intro for the pod we need somebody

to splice up that cnbc uh clip make an intro for us i'm like all right well you know don't have anything better to do tonight? I'm going to get some good craft brews out of my favorite brewery in Minneapolis and open up GarageBand. And one thing led to another, made the intro. I think I tweeted it at you originally. Yeah. Technical director of the concierge team, an incredible audio engineer. Yeah. GarageBand audio engineer by night. That's right. Well, thank you for listening. Thank you for the intro. People love it. Oh man. It's really cool. I mean, I'd be remiss if I didn't say that I mentioned it on concierge onboarding calls

of folks that are fans of TFTC. And I'm like, hey, you know, by the way, just so you know. And everybody, everybody loves it, which is kind of cool. Conferences, like I've used it as a shilling point, so. Yeah, I mean, and you're

one of the Bitcoiners made the great migration to Texas to come from Minneapolis to Unchained Capital, particularly you and Cam. Yes. Come top of mind. Is it just you two from Minneapolis here?

Oh, we have a squad. Now, some folks are still up in Minneapolis, but we do have Rocky on the business development team too over in Dallas. Yeah, making the migration down to Texas. I think there's going to be more on the way too. But there's a strong contingent of Minneapolis Bitcoiners. So shout out to Brandon Quittem for running the Minneapolis meetup up there. It's incredibly high signal. It's evolved from just a small group of guys in a brewery talking about Bitcoin to a large meetup, usually 60, 70 headcount and growing. The Telegram group is growing. I'm still a part of it. I think they've grandfathered me into still staying in the Telegram group. but it's great I mean topical conversations right how to run a node how to work a cold card like these meetups compounded over time really contribute to people's education for sure yeah I mean

we've been beating the drum here for quite some time if you haven't gone to a local Bitcoin meetup get on it and if you don't have one start one these things this is how the grassroots movement happens totally it's

been beautiful to see proliferate. I mean, we had somebody have a shout out on RHR yesterday that's starting one in Leamington, in Warwickshire, Warwickshire in the Midlands and in the UK. Very nice. As you know, I'm not very good at pronunciating. You know, after years and years of listening to TFTC, I'm going to try to get you to say certain words. No, please don't. Please don't. that's uh yeah that's uh yeah my girlfriend the other day was trying to she was having trouble

saying uh uh apocalyptic she said apocalyptic i'm like that's a marty that's a different i can say apocalyptic apocalyptic that has that's actually a word right is it i don't know i think so i don't know she said it i'm like wait a second is that an actual word um but speaking of her she uh came to her first bit devs not last night but last month uh so slowly starting to get interested into bitcoin as well so like taking it basically out of uh out of work into home life as well how's that been how has your girlfriend viewed your obsession with bitcoin throughout the duration of your relationship did you move her down here from minneapolis no no she's uh she's actually from um east texas she uh grew up uh east of texas and went to denton uh for university so

i met her down here um completely new to bitcoin before we started uh before we started seeing each other but she's like been fascinated by it um wants to buy bitcoin so every time we go out to dinner and do certain things um she does like to you know every once in a while split the bill and do stuff like that and if i pay her back i set her up on blue wallet so i'll pay her back with sats i'm like you don't know right now but these are like kyc free sats this is the best way for you to be getting bitcoin um but she has an unchained capital shirt uh came to our first bit devs and And she was listening to Buck Purley talk about Merkle trees. And she's like, I don't know what y'all are saying,

but the fact that all you guys care this much about it really means something. So it's kind of cool. How was BitDevs last night? Were you here? I was here. I was actually squirreled away in our suite across the hall working on some stuff, trying to make our processes and procedures on the concierge team just smooth as butter. Well, you guys got to strike while the iron's hot here.

Exactly. Yeah. um it's been i mean it's been a long time coming everything that we're seeing now play out over the past couple weeks even um i mean it just re-emphasizes the message hold your own keys right now your keys not your coins it's you know not to dovetail into like a uh an anecdote or you know take time away from i don't know if you're gonna ask something specific but i have a story about bitcoin 2022 that like is it the same story i'm thinking about that i was involved in no it's not that i wanted to bring that one up definitely yeah definitely bring that one up uh there was uh

we were at the unchained booth at bitcoin 2022 though folks come around um of course you know crypto people come around and that's that's also the opportunity to educate tell them you know phil geiger's line of uh you know if you actually want to better secure your your whatever token just upgrade it to bitcoin first and then secure it in multiseg and you're going to be good so we were talking, I was talking to this one individual and I said, you know, basically talking about concierge, uh, about two of three multi-sig, how that, you know, gets you one step closer to kind of our suite of financial products. And he really dug into the multi-sig and he's like, so you hold your, can you earn a yield? I was like, well, you know, your yield is you and Matt have said so

many times, you know, when you hold your own keys, your yield comes in the form of increased purchasing power over time. Right. I mean, that's, that's how you need to think about it. That's a mental model you need to use and he and i said just casually i'm like you know not your keys not your coins this guy looks at me and he goes i thought that was like a 2015 thing i was like dude earlier than that i i but like i just didn't know what to say because one it's earlier than that two like it's not a fad it's not like a that just it's not like a passing thing um yeah this isn't ethereum it's not like the world computer to ultrasound money like these right we say here has staying power, right?

Oh my God. I was like, that was a moment where I'm like, you know what? I'm going to go back to the hotel, just stare maybe at the ocean for a little bit and think about it before getting back out there and educating folks. But yeah, the story with you is pretty cool though too.

That was awesome. Yeah, I don't know if you listened to RHR from yesterday yet, but we talked about it because obviously with everything going on with Celsius this week, we're going insolvent and people are learning the hard lesson of not your keys, not your coins. Tyler and I were on the same flight from Austin to Miami for Bitcoin 2022 this year.

And we were staying at hotels that were right next to each other. So we decided to Uber together from the airport to the area where our hotels were. And we're sitting there waiting for our Uber. And some random gentleman comes up to us and says, hey, are you guys going down to the South Miami area for Bitcoin 2022? We're like, yeah. He's like, can I hop in your Uber? I'll pay you in sets.

so we did that I paid for the Uber you fucked up paying me in sats originally what happened there I was gonna say man I hope he doesn't

bring up that side of things I oh this is sacrilegious Matt's gonna be somewhere like face palming if he listens to this he's gonna pay me over blue wallet lightning

yeah I paid you over blue wallet on chain and that was where I messed up which is you know just embarrassing after the fact but but it was cool

to run into a bitcoiner who like had lightning ready to go um he used strike to pay me which was that's pretty sweet um honestly you know maybe a lesson in there about not just letting a random person hop in with you in an uber but especially at a bitcoin conference but whatever yeah yeah i mean you know we could tell he was good people you have that like fifth sense right um the sat sense and you pick up he was a good person uh interesting conversation the whole ride uh down to south beach too yeah navy veteran but part of that conversation was him explaining how he was using Celsius and I believe Nexo's

yield products to produce income to live off of. So with all this stuff going on with Celsius blowing up and going insolvent, it seems, uh, I did think of that gentleman this week because I remember we politely tried to be like, Hey man, you probably shouldn't be doing this. Yeah. And like you said, for an income, right? I mean, that's crazy to me. And we did try to politely put on shill mode or just orange pill as much as possible. But I thought about him too, actually, because we had that conversation. He did mention both Celsius and I think Nexo as well. So, yeah, and it's, you know, a couple nights ago, Tuesday night of this week, I hopped into a Celsius Twitter spaces. I don't know if you've done that yet. I haven't done it. I've heard they've been pretty insane, though.

I mean, you know how, like, when a car crash happens, you kind of have to, like, look at it? That's what I thought this was going to be. I saw, you know, when you follow certain individuals and you look up top on the Twitter spaces, you can see who else is in the room. So I saw, like, Rodolfo is in there. There's some other Bitcoiners in there. So I'm like, oh, interesting. I'll join. And for like a sliver of hope was like, I was going to join. Maybe it was folks saying, you know, well, should I buy a Trezor or a Ledger or how do I secure my stuff a little bit better? I was sorely mistaken. You get in there and it's folks talking

about, uh, Corey Clipston. Yeah. They're blaming Swan, blaming Corey. It's like, you know, personal responsibility um kind of goes hand in hand with holding your own keys extreme ownership it is extreme ownership it's you know and people were more concerned about their rewards every monday and that you know celsius is doing right by the community and working day and night and it's uh there was not a sliver of like extreme ownership you know demanding answers to like you know thinking about okay what do we do going forward um which really just is like wow uh reinforces, you know, and I didn't want to listen to that and get, cause you know, you don't stay at the car crash. You eventually leave and let the paramedics do their thing. So I left that spaces.

And I didn't want to leave demoralized. It just kind of, you know, reinvigorated me, right? We get to come to work day in and day out and set people up with private keys who are either, you know, have had hardware devices and just maybe they're gathering dust in their closets or, you know, they, they got them new and they need to know how to use them. We get them set up with private keys and that like there's a feeling you get when you do it you know the feeling when you move sats to cold storage yourself you kind of have that magic moment that product people talk about whether you're like you know first night in an airbnb or something you get that magic moment you feel that when you move your own sats to cold storage and then we kind of

have a little cheat code because we get to feel that on the concierge team every time we help somebody set up a vault um it's incredible it's really really fun i mean that's why hundreds and hundreds of individuals, you know, that I've helped to set up. Each one is awesome. And I just know in the back of my mind, hopefully that person is not going to end up in that Celsius Twitter spaces one day. Yeah. So what is the typical user experience of onboarding to the via the concierge service to an Unchained Vault? Or maybe before that for anybody, I mean, we've talked about it a bunch of times on the show, but getting new listeners every week now, every episode so before we get to the onboarding experience probably important to explain

exactly what the vault is why you guys decided to choose this particular model of collaborative custody and how you think it benefits your clients totally um and before i dive into that i've thought about asking you this because you've been having this i mean this podcast marty this is like a huge component of why i have like learned about bitcoin to the degree i have like the technicals sure i maybe more like books like programming bitcoin by jimmy song and these really good technical resources um but how to think about why bitcoin is important tftc has been like at the cornerstone of that i have like thank you bought books that are written by your guests i have uh you know sent podcast episodes to relatives and friends and family even if it's not bitcoin specific

when you have David Collum on that's like really interesting stuff so everything you've been doing has been fantastic over these past number of years I wanted to ask you in the context of private keys knowing your audience

because it includes me and other folks who I see a lot what percentage would you give to your audience members who like hold their own keys to their Bitcoin? I mean hardcore freaks

I think let's start with like live chat on RHR yeah yeah right 100% okay i would agree uh live chat freaks 100 overall probably 60 okay yeah and then is that high do you think i would say i mean given your of what you and matt talk about every week what you mentioned with your guests like there we go you're back i would say i maybe more than 60 i would hope um maybe there's some teetering on the edge too right um well if you it's funny if you look into

so this is actually a great dovetail into the onboarding services like you met my brother works at unchained he's part of the concierge team and um helping onboard people and our demo breakdown a majority of our audience is between the age of 25 and 45 okay yep with a very large portion being like 35 years and older so in my mind that's older millennials gen xers who may not be as comfortable with private keys but hopefully via listening over the years they get comfortable um from what i understand a lot of the concierge onboarding targets wealthier individuals who are a bit older, right? Yeah. And, uh, by the way, uh, Marty's brother on our client solutions team kills it when he's talking to clients about it. The importance of multi-sales

is amazing. Um, the really cool thing about our vantage point sitting on the concierge team is onboarding folks from all like ages. I mean, sure. There's maybe a bell curve there, um, where you see some more than others, but older, you know, right out of college, uh, software engineers to school teachers. It's crazy the amount of people who are taking the dive into holding their own keys. So what we do is really take somebody from like zero to like a multi-sig hero, right? I mean, even if you are familiar with, you set up a ledger in 2017 and maybe you didn't really touch it, you kind of know what seed phrases are, but not to the depths of like, you know, knowing what a passphrase is and how that might impact stuff. We take all of those

folks, basically run them through start to finish here. And it's not just one call. We have an hour long concierge call. But then, you know, it's not like we just go away, right? We're kind of that we're that body of, I guess, you know, intelligence to talk to. If you have a question about this stuff, because as you know, I mean, rabbit hole recap, it's a rabbit hole. You might have a question about, what is a Bitcoin address? What's my change address? And we try to do a bunch of different efforts, not only individual calls, but continuing education webinars. I mean, tweets about trying to educate folks. But really, you know, putting, I think the core tenants we hit on in the multi-sig onboarding, taking a high level step back at first to say, hey, these are

called hardware wallets. It's what the industry has called them. Sure. Bitcoin is not in the wallet that's kind of like number one uh these devices uh generate your seed phrases they hold your keys you use these devices to move bitcoin from addresses because addresses are where bitcoin lives and like a majority of your listeners right now are like well yeah um but it's crazy i mean the amount of folks who think you know and it's common terminology to say my bitcoin are on my ledger or bitcoin are on my cold card sure but like they're not really and breaking that mental model is uh it's more common than people might even think bitcoin are on the distributed ledger bitcoin or bitcoins all the bitcoins are on the distributed ledger your bitcoin yes is also on

the distributed ledger yeah and so like highlighting that and even sometimes folks oh whoa that's kind of crazy it's like yeah so and then we dive into multi-setting and say okay so if you had just one of these devices you have just one trezor you have a 12 word seed phrase that's cold storage that's not your keys not your bitcoin that's a lot safer in my opinion than having your funds on an xyz exchange but now you have a single point of failure right something happens to that 12 word seed phrase you don't want to be in that situation um you maybe misplaced it or uh and life happens crazy things happen water damage from floods uh burglary or fires single points of failure can cause a lot of fear um and so you can actually we that's why we have multi-sig

and we tell folks a lot of time a lot of the time too we didn't invent it it's not proprietary to unchained um but we're here to help you build a multi-sig address um now again more technical listeners will probably be like well you're building a multi-sig wallet and sure but like let's focus on address and now that we laid out that framework of your device your bitcoin lives on an address, not on your device. We're now going to build you an address that has that fault tolerance. You don't have that single point of failure. You could lose in a drastic scenario, one of your sets of 12 words, one of your devices, and you're still going to be okay because you have redundancy there. And that, you know, sleeping easier at night because of that

might not be something that's palpable right on the call, but it sure is should anything happen. and life is crazy things do happen people move people uh you know life circumstances happen maybe there's a natural disaster at their home um it's just you know having them realize the single point of failure and how important that is uh it's i mean second second and done maybe you've got some family members you've you've told about bitcoin they know what to look for and it's like kanye's cousin who stole his laptop they're gonna come over and they get they get one of your seed phrases or while it's thinking they're going to get the whole stash, but no. Yeah. And, and it's like, you know, then the education goes beyond that single eliminating

your single point of failure and then eliminating unchained as a single point of failure. That's why our, you know, our multi-sig vaults compatible. You take your wallet configuration file, you go over to Sparrow wallet or Caravan or Electrum. And that quickly gets, you know, really technical, right but folks love to learn about it which is really cool um oftentimes zoom is like the most complicated thing about part of the setup is like sharing screen or whatever if we need to walk through a particular something's not connecting right but at the end of the day bitcoin is i mean doing operating your multi-sig vault it's a lot easier than folks think you know self-custody in general i think about it as like uh you know i don't know if it's like an old cartoon but you

know when there's something walking around the corner and it's casting this huge shadow and it looks really scary. Then around the corner, it just is like a little mouse. That's what self-custody is. It sounds a lot more complicated than it is. It's just key ownership. If you can write down a grocery list, you can write down 12 or 24 words. Now you need to keep it secure. And that's maybe the harder part. I'm not going to earn a yield, but like, come on. So yeah, that's how I like to about it yeah and it's a good way to think about it and i hope that's the thing you have these waves of events that happen throughout bitcoin's history mount gox obviously being one of them uh you know a lot of people learned the lesson not your keys not your coins 800 000 bitcoin got swept away in

that tobacco now we're having this wave hit us with these yield products that people they're They're siren calls, essentially. They're just sirens. You have Alex Mashinsky's a siren just screaming there, I'll give you 6%. Oh, my God. At the end of the day, like Tyler mentioned earlier, and like Matt and I have talked about many times on RHR

and in the interview series, like the increased purchasing power over the long run is going to be significantly, maybe it's not significantly more than like, if you're getting that interest rate, that yield on your Bitcoin, number one, it's income, so you have to pay taxes on it. So it's 6% on paper.

But once you get it, it's probably more like 3% when you pay the taxes on it and all that. And is that 3% worth the potential to lose all of it, which Celsius users are finding out this week. Imagine if you put 10 Bitcoin on there and you're doing it to get 6 million sats a year in revenue. So you just lost a billion sats for 6 million upside. That was the crazy thing about that Celsius Twitter space is there'd be folks they bring up to the stage who were, you know, Bitcoin only, but I'd love to see, but like we're talking about

having all their Bitcoin, millions of dollars worth of Bitcoin on Celsius to earn yield. And then they'd get asked a question about some other cryptocurrency and they'd probably say, well, I don't dabble in any of that. But at the same, in the same breath,

you're saying you have all of your Bitcoin, you know, custodially held with Celsius. Like you're so close, man. Well, even then, like that yield's produced by the stuff that you stay away from. So you're really not staying away from it at all. No, not at all. And it's, uh, yeah, so that, that's just like, wow. Um, there's a lot of folks out there that are quickly realizing a counterparty risk and, um, what that truly means when it rears its head. And it's not something that people just say it's so easy

to kind of get caught up in, well, X, Y, Z exchange or wherever. So big, they're never going to you know they're never going to fall or never going to be uh subject to all this crazy stuff that's happening but gradually then suddenly right yeah yeah i think and how much of this is driven by in your opinion just preconceived notions of how individuals are supposed to interact with money that you've interacted with in the digital realm up until the point that you encountered bitcoin um and so there again i've said this many times throughout the years there has to be a mental rewiring in the brain of how you approach this and people are just applying again preconceived notions of how their interactions with money have worked

their whole lives onto bitcoin it's just not it's untenable if you want to interact and use bitcoin correctly i mean to some extent it's all really the root fault of fiat banking uh because you know you're going to chase yield because you don't want the 20 bips that your you know bank is going to give you on a savings account so why the six percent or whatever on celsius looks attractive um it's it's chasing yield uh not understanding that with a hard money you can just save like make, make savings great again is like, like the core message that I'm trying to get out to folks, friends and family, um, alongside self custody, you know, that's kind of like they, they go hand in hand, but you just don't want to be that. You don't want to be that, that Bitcoin friend,

that uncle Jim that recommends, uh, talks about Bitcoin year in, year out. And then you finally convince your cousin on Thanksgiving dinner to buy Bitcoin. Uh, and then, you know, they're the, one of the ones who's seeing you know cannot withdraw on the screen of their phone like you don't want to be put in that scenario either um but yeah you're right you're absolutely right it's uh it's the way folks traditionally think about money chasing yield trying to beat inflation um so it's really you know an unfortunate symptom of kind of the larger uh the kind of what's going down in a kind of a more macro theme but it's insidious too because uh these these platforms i think know that they're just recreating fractional reserve banking um and it's you

know i don't think their their customers are acutely aware of the risks involved yeah and this actually brings up an interesting point too because a lot of these companies due to the fact that they're able to amass a bunch of bitcoin lend it out on the back end rehypothecate a big yield many would point to them say oh they're much more successful they have more revenue they have more profit um than something like an unchained which has a more conservative model um because you're not re-hypothecating offering yield and taking that siren call business model uh the point i'm trying to get to is like though 1031 is an investor and unchained disclaimer i'm a partner

at 1031 uh the reason that grant and jonathan have invested many times up to this point and probably continue to invest moving forward is because we think in the long run that the Unchained model is what the future financial system, you guys are building out the base layer infrastructure of what the future financial system will look like,

particularly around multi-sig. Right. I mean, yeah. I mean, the benefit of having a collaborative custody member is to eliminate yourself as a single point of failure. living by that not your keys not your coins um security principle is that that's like what we place above all else right then we have other financial services uh your ira i mean when i

left my old job i had a 401k sitting there and you know i made the choice because this was back when our ira product wasn't a thing i like liquidated so i'd go buy bitcoin sure uh but you know bill geiger has since educated me on uh and ensure the product wasn't around then but when you do that you you know you're effectively paying a tax hit on that to the government so why not just you know roll over uh your retirement into bitcoin where you still hold your own keys just out hodl out hodl the irs um so it's but but you're absolutely right like the future of finance if you want to call it that i think the future of you know preserving generational wealth and wealth security um it's not going to be done through fans like fancy rehypothecation

rube goldberg machines um i'm not depositing my bitcoin in my on-chain vault so they can go turn it into like some dog tokens you know it just sounds so ridiculous in hindsight um peak clown world maybe or like on the way up um but i'm holding my own keys to my wealth that one day my my grandchildren are hopefully going to reap the benefits of so it's just like it's such a different framework um and the way we think about it yeah and it's crazy how unique the model can get particularly again around multi-sig where i think in the future you can have unchained can be the gateway for for many key holders over different providers as well thank you yeah you're it's just uh insane that so many in the space so many quote-unquote bitcoiners who should understand

again this is a new protocol that is allowing us to build new primitives for a new financial system and so many in the space have uh taken the short-term fiat route of like oh now we're just going to recreate the fiat system with our product and this is what people want this is what they're used to and instead of thinking long term now let's build a whole new one using multi-sig as a base yeah which we can begin to create really secure products that that give individuals the power that they deserve at the end of the day this again like you mentioned this is potentially generational wealth this is money this is something that should not be fucked with and making it as secure and accessible as possible uh the right way when i would deem to be the right way is a much

better long-term uh strategy from a business perspective than what you're seeing with many of the other providers who will you can pick on celsius and nexo right now because they're blowing up but yeah but it's it's everywhere and it's uh it's just the way we you know one of the phrases that has continuously, it's like bugged me more and more, is just making money in terms of buying Bitcoin. Well, have you made money on that yet? What do you mean? To me, that means, does the number of sats that I hold in cold storage, has that number gone up? That's me making money. A dollar denominated value is like, you know, I don't know if it's a paradigm shift, what needs to happen. Obviously, our continuing education efforts on that front as well, just through

everything we do with you know uh i'd say us broadly i don't want to say community but like bitcoiners talking about this stuff um just like getting away from the dollar denominated uh number being of importance um to the degree that it is now right yeah i mean this is a great week to be talking about this bitcoin found 30 percent people like ha oh my god look at you right ponzi scheme i don't think obviously it's not even i don't think i don't know you just look at the general public and the talking head pundits out there they truly don't understand bitcoin and the value prop and the fundamental utility that provides humanity today it's it's working i can

send you bitcoin over lightning this time if you want uh not unchained in the back of an uber or on chain i almost said unchained um but no it's working uh blocks are being produced um difficulty adjustments still happening uh block height all-time high is happening um so it's just you know it's folks who again think about it in terms of how they've been normally taught to think about money and investments, not in a new money, um, a new way to save. I mean, Bitcoin's a rally cry, right. Uh, in the words of, you know, Parker. Um, so yeah, it's, uh, I've had friends text me, uh, are you doing okay? Crypto's really taking a dump. I hope you're like, you know, I hope you're, I hope you're doing okay. It's like, that's why I tweeted out a couple of days ago. I'm like,

I work for a crypto company just as much as like a formula one engineering crew member works for a used car uh used car shop and they're not the same things so again education point drive the uh the divorce between bitcoin and crypto as much as possible and so sitting at the front of this movement to take extreme ownership and secure your own bitcoin via private key management in a custodial vault with unchained obviously you've onboarded hundreds of people say the Celsius blow up three arrows

blow up really drives them to point to many more people out there like okay I need to take key security

how do you see not even what you guys are just doing at Unchained but just generally the adoption of private key ownership scaling

as more and more people adopt Bitcoin that's a really really good question I'd say you feed me the people to get set up

a multi-sig but I think you're going to see broadly I think you're going to see the likes of BTC Sessions YouTube views skyrocket I think you're going to see you know hardware device manufacturers really be put to the forefront not only existing

ones but possibly what I know what Jack's working on and their team is working on I think you're going to see the rise of Bitcoin only firmwares Bitcoin only security devices Stafford's going on with SeedSigner right now are pretty incredible like all of these grassroots

And I know, you know, these hardware wallet companies are not necessarily grassroots, but SeedSigner is. So these efforts, these open source education efforts are about to become not only important and cool, but necessary. You're going to see the floodgates open of people hopefully rushing to hold their own keys. Hopefully that means folks come to Unchained as well. But just take, you know, take the first step at the very least. And I know a lot of listeners to TFTC and to Rabbit Hole Recap, I imagine them as being the Uncle Jims, right? Maybe you're well-versed in Sparrow Wallet and you have your own setup and collaborative custody might not be the thing for you, but that doesn't mean it can't be the thing for your aunt or uncle or friends or cousins, right? You can continue to be their Uncle Jim and guide them, but just let us help as well. That's what we're here to do.

it does take a little bit of an emotional toll. Like when you hear about folks who have their funds stuck somewhere, they can't withdraw. It's just like, man, we're right here. I can, you know, instead of sipping on the sparkling water in between onboardings, I could be onboarding you and helping you secure your generational wealth, hopefully. So I think this kind of the aftermath of what's going on now, I do hope that we see page views on Bitcoin Q&A go up. I hope we see BTC sessions videos, tutorial videos go up.

I hope we see supply chain constraints from Rodolfo and team because they just can't move devices out fast enough. That would be like my dream state. I agree too. Where do you think the state of, obviously we have all these YouTube

channels, we have these hardware wallets, we have services like Unchained. what do you think we need more of though like that stuff's already here like if we're going to onboard a billion people billion people to self custody

I think we need to drive home and this is like I mean it's being done but I think it maybe needs to be amplified even further is the importance of 21 million and securing your portion of that

21 million Um, that is going to be at the end of the day, if you value that, then, and then, then, you know, self custody is all the more justified. You enforce that 21 million every time you hold your own keys, because then, you know, you're not artificially, uh, inflating the, the supply of Bitcoin, right. It's being lent out and stuff. And you're, you're that, that, that's, you really have to drive home that inelastic supply curve. so to onboard a billion people into uh private keys you need to realize that we have the power to do it for one nobody's telling you you can or can't uh it's open source technology hold your own keys it's it's easy to do you don't have to do with your entire stack to start i mean i hope you hopefully eventually get there um but take the dive and learn and the message of 21 million bitcoin i mean why isn't parker lewis out on cnbc talking about this stuff great question it's a great question honestly you have novo on too much cnbc that dude's a derelict it's

ridiculous i mean it's ridiculous and parker puts out so much signal uh phil geiger puts out so much signal like it's time for people to actually start valuing uh scarcity 21 million um and like what comes behind that well this is this actually stoked a thought my head too for anybody who just got burnt on celsius chasing that six percent you brought up a very good point like being the 21 million is extremely important and if you really do want the price of bitcoin to go up significantly the best thing you can do is take control of your private keys and move your bitcoin to addresses that you control with those keys because you're just sucking potential rehypothe rehypothecary liquidity out of these service providers which is which is less liquidity that those providers have

with increased demand for Bitcoin is naturally going to drive up the price. So you can make a very strong argument. I would argue that the individuals who are currently, number one, not having any access to their Bitcoin via platforms like Celsius and others that are going bust right now.

And then two, maybe they had some Bitcoin that wasn't on there and they did have in self-custody, but now that has 30% less purchasing power than it did last week because those service providers blew up. I think you can make a very strong argument that if you were just to stay away

and every one of those users were to self-custody instead, the price of Bitcoin would be much higher than it is right now because what we're essentially experiencing is a deleveraging event where people are forced to liquidate, these providers are forced to liquidate a large amount of Bitcoin

which is obviously driving the price down if they didn't have this bitcoin in the first place right where would we be and another point as you were talking there i was thinking like you know what's going to get a billion people to hold private keys um kind of have to come at it from the other side as well i mean if you are a merchant or you are you know selling a good or service or you you know are maybe the creator economy, quote unquote, you know, Bitcoin is a payment mechanism earning in Bitcoin, you know, that, that's, you know, it's going to give you, I mean, that, that is actually the circular economy is where it's at, right?

Because if you're earning Bitcoin now, you have something that you can self custody gets you one step closer. If your favorite merchant or a provider for whatever good or service you want is accepting bitcoin it's more of a reason for you to have it and to use it more of a reason puts you closer to self-custody or even you know using something like blue wallet so uh the circular economy aspect too is certainly uh i would say pretty important in that endeavor hey as somebody who has a lot of sats flows i highly recommend yes injecting yourself into the circular economy i mean we'll maybe you should give me

maybe let's be the first episode wait this isn't running through fountain so I can't do the per episode split if you're on RHR

okay you could have given me your lightning address we could have split but podcasting 2.0 one sad stream

yeah the ads a lot of advertisers paying bitcoin I've got some mining operations there's nothing I've set it up

where outside of rhr which is running through fountain just because of the way their app's set up and i want to test it out that's custodial but the this sat streamed from this episode are going straight to a node that i control yeah shout outs go straight to an xpub that i control if they're paying on chain if you're paying for uh some of our merch in bitcoin yeah that's going either to the node that we control the lightning node or on chain wallets that i control the mining revenues obviously they're going straight to wallets that i control and the advertising spends that um are

being paid in bitcoin straight to wallets i control and there's that just feels incredible yeah it's it's it's empowering it's crazy and it's yeah man so much goes into that a billion people into uh self-custody i mean uh brilliant engineers who are out there working at these companies that are just these insidious companies these are intelligent bright engineers i used to work with some of my former uh employer like just one step removed from seeing how cool some of the stuff that's being built out on lightning is or how pretty awesome btc pay server is open source contributions from these brilliant engineers maybe you graduated from stanford and you know you want like instead of going to work at just another food delivery company uh or music streaming platform or

something or if you're at a music streaming platform bring up uh you know value for value but instead of just going and taking a startup job at some random tech company like open source contributions finding your way into bitcoin through development too if you're an engineer i mean awesome talk about a time to actually like create something of value yeah it's never been easier there's so much to fucking build it's nuts yeah i mean for real it's crazy there's a renaissance happening from an engineering perspective. Um, and then you just as a normal Bitcoin or day to day, Brian Harrington said it, uh, on, on Twitter a while back and I've used it in all my interactions. If you have to pay somebody back or you're like, you know,

in a situation where you got to open up your wallet or whatever, um, fiat wallet say, and that will, will that be in dollars or Bitcoin? Just ask it really seriously. You know, you're going to get some scoffs. Your uncle's going to laugh at you. Say it enough though. People are gonna be like damn maybe maybe bitcoin how would that work and then if you can get one of those wins a month that's something right so that's uh i i've adopted that that question uh babysitters i've had one take me up on it and then valet i always ask the valet valet car at dinner i'm like all right when i come back you want to tip and cash your bitcoin yeah haven't gotten a valet uh to take me up on the bitcoin but every time i do ask and it makes they they're one of those

a laugh. One guy at one time was like, yeah, I have cash app. I'll take it. And then when I went to get my car, it wasn't the guy that got my car. Oh, man. Another extension onto that billion people is Bitcoiners have more babies. We need to raise Bitcoiners. We need to, I mean, I'm not at that stage of my life yet, but I'm very much so looking forward to bringing more Bitcoiners into the world. You're a pro-natalist? Yeah. Oh my, yeah, of course. Population decline is, I mean, I am in the Elon Musk camp on that issue. I know he's been kind of a figure of turmoil for Bitcoiners, but he's absolutely right. It's gross to think that we need to keep population numbers down. Yeah, I agree.

Human flourishing, innovation, Bitcoiners all come with having more babies. trying to do my part yeah my um my latest son and so like how do you refer my most freshest my freshest my second sounds weird my second born is eight days old now it's been great how is uh the older one he's been great he's a great older brother nice and doting older brother he's day one he heard his little brother crying brought him an empty bottle oh yes that would soothe him That is awesome, man. Obviously, it couldn't because it was empty, but the thought was there. The intention was there.

That's so cool. Actually, right before I left, our youngest was in his little boppy thing. And our oldest walked over and just put a blanket over him and said, night, night. I was like, oh, it's not time for a nap yet. But I like that you're putting a blanket on him. That's cool. And caring for your younger brother. Yeah.

I mean, as you know, parenthood, I'm sure, uh, I mean, I've been learning from a lot of folks on the team at Unchained. I mean, Bitcoiners are having, having babies and learning, uh, thinking about, um, raising them into, in a world that you want to see, um, and making that world a reality is like a very real thing that we're doing. It's part of why I moved to Texas. Same. Yeah.

There, I mean, the, the thought of masking our oldest when he was going into daycare was just or he doesn't even do day carries um but thinking two three years ahead we're in the new york area uh like do we want our son to wear a mask going to school i was like no so we came down here where there's no mask policies i mean they do exist in some places down here but um it's just i mean coming from minneapolis yeah i hear you on that um so yeah having more big corners uh for sure and i'm glad to hear that uh both baby and and mom are healthy as well your wife's very healthy um knock on wood everything's been going swimmingly nice the first eight days now and it is yeah it's one thing that i really like to see that's been a growing trend within

one subsect of the bitcoin community as people try to call it um it's just a bunch of people on bitcoin is this pro-natalist movement or trend where again i think it's just part of like the bigger revolution of bitcoin is it really under the fiat monetary system with everybody being forced into the workplace they're making uh dollars that are that are quickly being debased by the central banks and the federal governments of the world and they feel this overwhelming doom or this existential dread that exists in humanity because people think people have been brainwashed to think that number one they're bad and then number two that the future of humanity is is very bleak because we're sucking up all the resources destroying the

climate and we can't support more and more people which just simply isn't true we have plenty of resources we have plenty of more importantly we have we have the fucking brains and the the genius and the the gift from god that is being a human where we can right we can use our intellect and our critical thinking and our adaptive skills to make the world a better place but for some reason people have been sold this lie that that is not the case and we're bad and we need to depopulate to save the planet we should be afraid we should be afraid uh we should cower in fear however and then that's exacerbated and there's like a bit of confirmation bias that comes from the fiat monetary system where people exactly are hearing this on one side and then

on the back end they're going home they're looking at their bills they're looking at the goals they set years before financially they're not reaching them they're saying yeah man something's wrong out there maybe yeah this life isn't worth it i mean and that's just so and that's that's more of like the grander kind of a, I mean, mission focused, what we're doing as Bitcoiners, right? And this is outside of Unchained, this is BitDevs and open source projects and podcasts and learning and books and everything that's going on is kind of to tackle that grander mission. Do you think that your oldest son, who is he, is two? Yeah, he's 28 months now. Do you think your older son's going to receive a u.s dollar denominated paycheck ever i don't i don't i don't um

i was thinking about this the other day as we go back to like the laser huddle episodes too i think i am a believer in the idea the theory that the 2020s are just going to be this massive transitionary period when we look up 2030 the world's going to be a lot different than it was when we started this decade and so yeah taking that my son was born in 2020 it will be 10 in 2030 and i think by 2030 we'll have a we'll have transitioned to a bitcoin standard i know that's blasphemy to a lot of people out there but i think i mean you just look at what's going on right now i mean i think i've been saying this in recent weeks i think we're headed towards the complete collapse in confidence in the institutions that rule the day today. I think it could happen

as soon as this fall, if not by 2025, when you combine just the money, how broken it is. The Fed is obviously backed into a corner, even with the 75 BIP rate hike earlier this week. I don't think that's going to tame inflation. And if food prices and energy prices continue to rise throughout the summer despite this uh hike from the fed that's really gonna have people questioning like oh crap they can't control inflation which is like all right like what why does the fed exist why is it here um again those problems will be driven by an energy and a food crisis which will lead people to like begin asking like why are we doing this energy transition why don't we have enough food like it's 2022 yeah like how do we fuck it up this bad and then uh i think it's becoming glaringly

obvious that the mass vaccination campaign was not uh the wisest decision to make and to to put a jab in billions of arms around the world i think this fall it's going to be undeniable that that decision from the medical institutions and the federal governments around the world to force that on people um is actively harming millions of people around the world and the confluence of those massive fuck-ups at the same time right which i think could happen this fall is going to lead to a massive collapse in confidence and obviously hyperinflation has been a big theme since jack tweeted that out uh earlier this year like last year um hyperinflation is

two parts. It's part mechanical supply monetary units that have flooded the system, and then it's part confidence. There's two parts to it. It's the mechanical expansion of the monetary base, and then it's the confidence of the individuals that is actually working.

I think we've seen the first part play out, and that expansion has happened rapidly to a point of no return, and now just trying to figure out when that collapse in confidence comes and I think the conditions for that collapse

are getting very strong right now. Trust is severed in different types of institutions on a daily basis and no one doesn't even need trust is a 24 word

seed phrase. So you treat that as the North Star and all this. You just have to trust yourself. yeah like there's i think that's a realization people are gonna come to like i can't trust jay pal i can't trust janet yellen i can't trust anthony fauci i can't trust the uh gen whatever her name is the energy secretary i can't trust larry fink and these wall street freaks pushing us down the esg energy transition narrative i can't trust

these public schools who are having uh grown men dressed as women come read books looking like demons to my child like it's like i can't trust uh a rehypothecation station uh in in celsius with my funds yes um and it's it's you know it's the dominoes that are gonna keep falling at the end of the day 21 million uh your seed phrase personal responsibility is hopefully going to be on the rise um you know this next generation your son like i mean coming up in a world where personal responsibility is the default and self-custody. I mean, American Hodl's talk at Bitcoin, what was it? Bitcoin, uh, BitBlockBoom 2021. I mean, we're the capital allocators of tomorrow. Um, everybody who is, you know, so, so staunchly advocating for Bitcoin right now. Um, so I think the burden is on

a lot of, you know, a lot of, uh, folks to hold Bitcoin in self-custody right now to continue to educate whether that's their own heirs or you know as their as their generations you know after them grow up um to really preach self-custody uh you know yeah and i think we're seeing that begin to materialize outside of bitcoin too like i had tucker max on earlier this year i think what he's doing i mean i think he i would consider him like a bitcoin tangential i think he uh respects bitcoin i think he's a bit skeptical it's it's potential to succeed but i do i do think he gets it and thinks it's a worthwhile project and yeah um but like seeing what he's doing and dripping springs with the alternative schooling system that they're building and

he's he wrote his doomer optimism piece which is really driving home that was actually ownership i think obviously bitcoiners have it at their core especially if they're taking self-custody and controlling their private keys that takes extreme ownership but i think even outside of bitcoin is it's just there's a in a vibe out there where people are like something's fucking wrong and they don't even need a lot of people don't even need bitcoin to be driven to all right i need to take more ownership over my life and not have these trusted third parties have so much control over me right i mean i was talking about this with a colleague the other day tom hanzik who's on our concierge team too it's like uh you know holding your own keys buying bitcoin and keeping

it on an exchange we made the analogy you're trying to think of like interesting analogies and analogies are never perfect but it'd be like uh be like going back in time watching the founding fathers like draft up and sign the declaration of independence and they just like put it in a desk drawer and do anything with it like come on you know you're you're so close you got the right uh if you're if you're thinking about buying bitcoin you're probably starting to think that And maybe, hopefully, you want to be exiting the dollar a little bit or at least exploring it because you think it's cool, whatever. But take the next step then.

Hold your own keys. That's when the magic happens. That's when you start to realize for what it is. So yeah, clown world is certainly not peaked, unfortunately. Well, what would you say to the Alex Mashinsky's of the world who have basically marketed their services by saying, no, you shouldn't hold your own keys. you're going to lose your Bitcoin.

That's how he was mainly coming out, Corey. It's like, you're the irresponsible one telling people to hold their own keys. They're going to lose their Bitcoin. It's like, you know, you look at the incentive set involved. I don't think they really align with his core messaging. I think, you know,

the incentive for him is for you to keep your funds on his platform one step closer so he can buy more JPEGs and put your capital at risk. That's his incentive, so he's talking his book. Versus accessing the best money on the planet, your portion of $21 million, be that Swan or whatever, these Bitcoin-only services

that have never once spoke down on self-custody. I mean, Alex Leishman would never. He's the man. Like, you know, we were, it's, these folks are principled because they understand what Bitcoin is. I would actually challenge Alex Mashinsky's like understanding of Bitcoin. I'd be like, I mean, are you thinking about this as a, uh, US dollar, uh, like money earning tool? I mean, is he still thinking about it? Like, uh, like the, how folks would traditionally think about finance and money? Are you state agent trying to confuse people? Are you? I mean, do you understand? I mean, Celsius should hold courses on how to self-custody. It never happened. But if you really, really, really were a part of what's going on here to change the way that we think about institutions and the way that we change about needing to trust some almighty entity, you would be advocating for self-custody. Yeah, and I think having watched his or seen the tweets where he was negging self-custody, I think it's really, number one, it's poor form on his part, but it's also a weak argument because it references all the lost Bitcoin that have existed. And I think for anybody new to Bitcoin and new to the show particularly, I think it is important to, number one, recognize, yes, people lost a lot of Bitcoin in the early days, but number two, they didn't care.

Bitcoin didn't have any value. right a lot like most the coins were lost like between 2012 and 2015 i think when yeah when bitcoin was significantly less valuable uh millions of bitcoins were lost when it was worth like a few pennies and so you had people looking at that i was like yeah it's not worth anything so i'm not right going to be incentivized to secure it so i'll be a bit blasé with with my key management i'll keep it in the sock drawer and lose it or won't even back up the key whereas today obviously uh significantly more valuable less valuable than it was last week but significantly more value than it was back then and people are number one more incentivized to um think about

key security more seriously and then number two the the products that exist the software that exists to manage your keys is significantly better than it was back then unchained being a perfect example of that. Yeah. He was just very intellectually dishonest about the numbers that he was citing and like the risks involved. It's like, man, I am sure maybe I'm a special subsect. So working on chain and we deal with Bitcoin every single day, but I mean, I had like $50 worth of Bitcoin. It was like at the time, maybe a hundred thousand sats. And like, it was, I was just playing around with Spectre and cold card. And I had a passphrase that I couldn't remember. And I was like in the dumps about that. And it was like a hundred thousand sats,

but I was like, man, this is ridiculous. You know? And then I, then I like worked it out and I nabbed it. I'm like, yes. Okay, cool. That's why I tested like a small amount of funds, like that level of care going into a hundred thousand sats. People just think about it differently now, you know? Um, and like you said, the tools are so much more advanced. Um, the education is so much more pronounced and, um, available than it was in like 2012, 2013. So it was incredibly intellectually dishonest um he knows that i mean their marketing teams know that i'm sure um but you know marty jones is going to come out right now alex mashinsky is a state agent let's go he's been sent into the world to confuse everybody yeah as a siren to drag them into his product so it could blow up and then

he can have the regulatory agencies come and say like yeah you know what yeah maybe he lost a bunch of Bitcoin early on. He's really sour about it. Yeah. I mean, state agent giving folks more of a reason to to just put their hard earned money at risk. And it's just ridiculous. So if you're out there listening to this and you have friends or family or cousins, aunts, uncles who who have bought Bitcoin and like they are like some folks are like deathly afraid. And, you know, for what they hear from the likes of Alex Mashinsky or some random blog post about somebody who lost the password to their Bitcoin. Yeah. They lost the server. They're deep in a landfill looking for their server. Right. They bought the whole dump because they need to search through. It's

like, okay, take a step back. Understand that there are professionals here to help. There's a bunch of knowledge out there. If you're an Uncle Jim and you want the helping hand, throw us the alley-oop. We'll finish the dunk for you. We'll get folks all set up. I'm going to have them feeling comfortable. So it's, it hasn't been easier. I don't think to hold your own keys. Um, and right now, like, man, is it the perfect time? Okay. I can hear the freaks yelling in the background, unchained KYC service. What are the trade-offs there? Excellent. Excellent question. Right? So the trade-offs with unchained is that you give up some anonymity, right? Um, You're using a collaborative custodian, any collaborative custodian that you provide an

ex-pub to, you know, there's going to be a certain tier within the organization that can see balances, right? That's how multi-sig wallets work. If you are contributing an ex-pub and you're kind of, you know, being that collaborative custody member. Now that anonymity trade-off, that's why we have the likes of Caravan, right? We built these tools, these open source tools. If your trade-off balance really favors preserving your anonymity and privacy, and you feel like you're a professional with it, head on over to Caravan.

Build your own multi-sig. It's a really, really slick tool. It's really nice. And that's for you. For your 55-year-old aunt, Kathy, who has a bunch of Bitcoin for some reason, and she wants help getting set up, we're here too. um and it's it's not an all or nothing game i think um thinking about also the trade-off there between you have your anonymity and privacy but then you also have like your security at the end of the day making sure my funds are secure uh holding my own keys and a two or three multi-sig

that's going to be like pinnacle for me and that's the trade-off i'd made because i work in unchained and somebody could scrape my linkedin profile and they know i'm a bitcoiner so it's like okay, but are my funds as secure as possible? So I definitely hear, and I've talked to folks at BitDevs and just elsewhere on Twitter, totally understand the need to preserve privacy and anonymity. And Matt O'Dell does great work on that front. But thinking about, at the end of the day,

what should come first is security, and then understanding that there's other tools available if you do want to be more anonymity and privacy preserving. Also would say that after talking to Buck Purley, michael flaxman the ideas of blinded x pubs and there's stuff being worked on in the future i didn't know if we're allowed to bring that up but that is really cool i mean it's you know it's it's being worked on i don't have don't know about any type of future so the idea of the blinded x pub is that you could engage in a collaborative custody model with unchained and basically you'd

create a a parent public key and then you'd use that to create another wallet right another private like a child public xpub that you could put bitcoin into and you are the only one who has the ability to know what addresses they are however if you're ever in a pinch you die and you need to move your estate and you need unchained to sign they can find that child xpub and sign on behalf correct yeah a collaborative custody member in that scenario would basically be held from knowing your balances until the event, should it arise, that they'd need to sign.

So it is privacy preserving from that perspective. And the fact that that's being worked on is cool. And the fact that that's coming down the pike as it relates to GitHubs that are being reviewed and that it's kind of interesting. Now, whether it makes it into the platform at XYZ state or date, that'd be cool. But the fact that it's out there

and it's not set in stone, right? So privacy and security are kind of both evolutions. You do what works best for you and you know that stuff's being worked on should at least give you a little bit of peace of mind. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we're here to. Peace of mind, freaks.

Peace of mind and, uh, yeah, peace of mind and, uh, you know, staying humble, of course, especially, you know, uh, I just wish, you know, my friends would stay, not stay humble, but just understand that just cause it's crashing doesn't mean they need to text me. I mean, if you're worried about Bitcoin crashing, just wait until everything else crashes. There's diesel shortages on the East Coast. Food prices are rising by like 30% a year. Gas prices are rising by like 100% a year. What happens when you wake up and the dollar doesn't work?

I mean, Paul Krugman has been just wisely protecting people against the crash of Bitcoin since it was like $14. There's a lot of other things. to be thinking about right now and uh securing your your wealth should be on that list as like you know a priority item um like you said there's there's things i mean food shortages you see that video at cows that are like yeah keeled over in kansas and nebraska nuts what like you know i've got questions same yeah what it's fucking hot as balls down here in texas yeah and we've got KNC cattle not too

far from where we're recording right now those cattle seem to be fine like how do the cattle in Kansas die of heat wave the longhorn is like the name of the

university mascot like it's not cattle are not no strangers to heat you know I mean I grew up in southern Wisconsin it's not super super hot I didn't know you

were a scotty yeah from Janesville Wisconsin makes me think less of you yeah a couple okay couple doors down

paul ryan was a neighbor growing up oh really yes yeah no i mean obviously i went to college in chicago a lot of scotties oh yeah would come down to to chicago illinois i lived across the street from a packers bar for like four years oh my god so i just have a bad scotty taste in my mouth from like every sunday i'm a bears fan okay uh so growing up in southern wisconsin as a bears fan was hard a hard knock life so you you know we're by a packers bar i'm sorry it's the ugliest colors in the nfl ugliest colors a lot of dad jeans yeah will's northwoods is a great bar though i gotta give a shout out to will's have you uh have you been back to chicago i haven't been back in like two or three years okay um i won't have been back since i left college but i love chicago

yeah i'm not too fond of watching it from afar over the last few years i think people need to throw laurie lightfoot into lake michigan uh she just uh thinks i'm a re-election she's like running a campaign again um it's weird how the merrill election works and it comes down to the alderman system like it's it's some weird i mean they call chicago the windy city not because of the wind even though there is a lot of wind but because of the corruption of the politics that exist it's it's a great city though it's due for a renaissance uh chicago deep dish pizza is great the city is actually really really cool my family and i go down every year to michigan avenue and do like kind of a family bonding shopping trip and it's a fun city it's really really cool i just

think it's been uh kind of riddled with um you know political uh strife over the past couple years there's been some decisions made at the at the municipality level that are really unfortunate yeah i mean going to living in chicago during college was incredible it's like a playground for yeah an 18 to 22 year old it was incredible have you been to minneapolis i have not i've not been to Minneapolis. That's also incredibly fun. Beautiful. I don't know how much I'm able to divulge about the who or

where, but there's a Northwoods beefsteak I was recently a part of. I had to. I was invited to that and due to the pending second child, I had to decline politely. Of course. But it was a good one. It was amazing. Away Slice.

The master of his craft. Beef was incredible. The people were incredible. Northwoods, I mean, there's mosquitoes, but outside of that, pretty special thing. Yeah, I fucking hate mosquitoes. I hate mosquitoes. I hate cold weather, so I came down here to Texas.

But going back up there, reconnecting with that community was really, really awesome. Yeah, I want to get up and get to a Minneapolis Bitcoiners meetup because the distillery looks incredible. Yeah. You got about like five or six Minneapolis Bitcoiners. Probably might be the best aesthetic of any Bitcoin meetup in the world. Yeah.

Is that distillery. A lot of leather, a lot of high quality. Yeah. The O'Shaughnessy distillery. Shout out to just the, I mean, Kelly Lannan somewhere is like fist pumping because it's just aesthetics. The architecture is beautiful. Not from Minneapolis, but it's been an influence of my architecture Twitter follows.

Go follow the Bitcoin urbanism list that Kelly curates. It's on my tweet deck and it's a wealth of good aesthetics. It's amazing. But that distillery is beautiful too. So I would encourage you and Matt to go up to an RHR with the squad up there. It's a really good bunch of Bitcoiners. And we do have that on the list to do a live RHR at that particular meetup. Yeah, it's a high signal coming out of there.

Hell yeah. Where are we going next? Where are we going next? Topic-wise or like... Just in the world. Man, I think... I don't know. I mean, I don't want to make a...

I don't want to make a Pete Clowner call. Don't do that. I advise against that from personal experience. But I think we might be... How do you view the world right now? Optimistic. I'm a Midwestern. I'm like way too nice for my own good.

I have a hard time saying no. Kind of just optimistic by default. Um, Bitcoin has made me a lot more optimistic at the same time. It makes me question a lot more question authority. First time I met your brother, he goes, I don't do well with authority. I was like, all right. Yeah, we don't. It's awesome.

We never have done well with authority. Um, but I'm, I'm optimistic. I think, um, I'm like pro humanity. I think, uh, I think people are, um, not just destined to be sheep. I think like, you know, there is hope for critical thinking, personal responsibility to rise again. might take a couple generations might take a lot more education outside of bitcoin as well as inside of bitcoin um but at least bitcoin can be kind of that uh it can lead the charge it's certainly a

tool that can be in everybody's uh everybody's toolbox okay i agree like do you now we're just riffing here but like i felt i feel like i felt like a sense of duty an increased sense of duty recently like we need to onboard as many people as quickly as possible because when shit hits the fan it's going to be bad you're not going to save everybody obviously but getting as many people on the light bits as possible could decrease the potential shit show mm-hmm yeah i mean below you're gonna have a bunch of people who get burned by the stove unfortunately some folks are just gonna not only get burned by the stove but they're gonna open up the oven and crawl inside of it and, you know, not be willing to get saved. And Hey, that's,

you know, that's their personal responsibility in the other direction. Um, well, we, what I don't want to, uh, have happen is I don't want to look back at like what we've done at Unchained or what I've done, you know, personally with friends and family outside of work and like have any regrets that I didn't push it or I didn't try to educate, you know? I mean, Hey, people get burned after time and time again of saying hey move to self-custody hold your own keys like you know there's only so much you can do personal responsibility but at the same time keep educating keep working keep doing what you do on the podcast i refer it to so many people thank you uh not just because i made the intro uh number of years ago by the way i've had i've had like

floated the idea during onboarding somebody's a really big rhr fan i'll be like yeah i did the intro oh that's so cool i'm like yeah thinking about giving them a new version and people get mad they're like no don't like you got to keep it I'm like okay well send me the new version people don't like change as is evidenced by people not self-custodying their bitcoins true

yeah I mean I think I think like mixing it up every once in a while it's a good idea yeah obviously we've done a huge rebrand here yeah so I've been meaning to ask you before we kind of formally wrap up what do you think is next what's next for

you I know TFTC um you you put in work with the newsletter which i also show the people um but i know you've got the studio now uh rhr is on a different feed psa rhr is on a different podcast feed if you think rabbit hole recap has not been recorded over the last three weeks here you're not on the right feed um search rabbit hole recap in your podcasting app so what's what's next for you i mean as you think about education efforts media content i mean i know i've heard about the instagram and in TikTok potentially meeting people where they're at which I actually kind of tend to agree

with. Thank you. Just because it's just the message that is so ridiculously big of a megaphone and if there's people out there that are going to be burned you can save them by meeting them where they're at. I think you have to meet people where they're at.

I don't know. I think I'm just going to try Can I say something real quick for Matt if he's listening? I know he's very anti-TikTok but like he tweeted a video recently he tweeted he tweeted a tiktok video seeing the tiktok logo so close to his name was a little bit like matt you're a hypocrite you're you're feeding the the demonic beast of social media clickbait i'm ashamed i'm ashamed no i didn't mean to interrupt you i'm

sorry i don't i'm fucking with you man obviously uh i don't know just keep doubling down on everything um trying to practice what i preach more uh having more kids i've been drinking less trying to really lean into the circular economy stuff like taking more ad money in bitcoin creating more sats flows yeah getting deep into the mining weeds uh for the media side of things there's been a not a transition but obviously a lot of the early episodes were

hyper focused on Bitcoin but now obviously we're having a Bitcoin conversation now talking about Unchained and what you guys are building and Multisig but I do think my approach from the content side of things particularly

the interview series has been to start to branch out to other areas obviously we've been talking a lot about energy we've been having doctors on the show and i think really leaning into sovereignty and liberty in the digital age outside of bitcoin just to begin extending olive branches to people who may not be focused on bitcoin or are a bit skeptical and sort of branching out the the content um mix into areas that really focus on freedom and liberty in the digital age and uh trying to bring all these freedom lovers under one roof or not under one roof just be like hey bitcoin's part

of what you're doing as well yeah and really because again like fix the money fix the world is truly what i believe and i think a lot of the problems that exist in energy that exist in the medical world that exists in education um are driven by the fact that the money's fucked up and so yeah trying to give people a holistic view of this maybe even more broadly it's not really you don't have to focus on money it's just centrally planning complex systems whether it be energy food yeah medicine money um really trying to lean into um and highlight individuals and people that are either doing grassroots movements or explaining why central planning has fucked up very important parts of our life like energy and food and all that stuff

for sure i think uh i mean you've been having some awesome guests on the uh the storefront guy i forgot the gentleman's name that was a great episode jamie uh he said don't even try to pronounce my last name because uh that was great though i mean yeah the you know the olive branch uh analogy or the way you put that was really interesting yeah i mean i think i'm just going there it's you can view it as that i can view it as that or it's just like i'm infinitely curious about many different things i mean obviously energy has been a big focus because i've been going down the mining rabbit hole and learning about energy is integral to understanding mining from a holistic perspective and so that's been a very fun rabbit hole to fall down um

have you um so i don't know if you i know you've had like joe weisenthal on in the past and on odd thoughts for a while uh the podcast he does with tracy alloway they had like this whole semiconductor series basically um now joe's views on inflation and some other stuff i'm not a big fan of but that was a fascinating episode series i'm a i gotta make it clear joe i consider like an internet friend he was on the show we dm every once in a while yes he's antagonistic people have realize joe's a massive troll too oh yeah he lures you in with his tweets i i think so as well um but and he had some really good they had some really good folks on from the semiconductor industry um so it'd be cool to like yeah branch out into that too yes yeah the last big semiconductor

talk we had on the show was when ryan gentry was on this almost two years ago now maybe it was like this time last year um but yeah he worked at intel we got pretty deep in the weeds of how Intel's Arizona foundry works specifically and like semiconductors are very very

specialized operations yeah it's I mean it's kind of crazy I learned a lot from listening to those podcasts that I didn't know

otherwise so yeah like how Bitcoin kind of touches all these other areas both either in principle or in

practical use super cool do you use Ghost for your newsletter yes I do do you have the

CEO of Ghost on no I have to DM him though that'd be cool I think I have DM'd him. He hasn't gotten back to me. That would be cool. That would be really, really cool.

Yeah, we're building a lot of stuff for your platform, bro. So that's another thing. Like DJ, who's the developer here at TFTC, he's been building a BTC Pay server integration

with Ghost. We're actually going to have a UI overhaul of our Ghost website as well. Oh, nice. So it'll actually look more like a news site instead of just some random

splattering of my thoughts. Yeah. No, it looks good. Yeah. So that's something, yeah. so that's a DJ and I have a really fun

working relationship where it's very I just get an idea I'm like can you integrate PTC pay server into Shopify

he's like yeah I'll try he does that boom I'm like what about Ghost he's like yeah I'm like alright damn that's shout out

he's the real MVP does he work out here at the commons no he's he's nomadic okay I never know where the fuck he is

that's cool though DJ if you're listening fucking call me we have a catch up call oh do you have to get you have to get here oh you're at 30 so you got five minutes right um i believe so that was a yeah scam call that i get a lot of

the times um well thank god they scam called you was five i would have kept going i know i would have kept going too um i had a thought real quickly about uh not that i it's you know i'm in a position to say so but like different interesting guests would be cool um joe kelly was recently on uh noah kagan's podcast about just being an entrepreneur and building a company he'd be cool I mean Bitcoin stuff maybe

yeah but just yeah Joe Joe and I like see each other when we're doing this it'd be awesome I want to get him

and Drew on at the same time though oh that'd be sweet this time Drew's in town yeah we've yeah we had dinner a few months ago

the three of us and we were yeah Joe and Drew we need to make this happen for sure that'd be awesome thank you again

for having me on this was fun talk about self custody you know if anybody has questions about you know multi-sig we're here at the concierge team

we love doing it yeah I'm a happy customer happy user actually set up another vault yesterday nice for a company I have and

yeah it works I mean our product and engineering teams are hard at work there's some cool things being worked on I mean our ultimate goal

secure generational wealth in the best way possible yeah and if you're running a business too like yeah I use it for that as well and it works well and the peace of mind it can't be understated no or overstated

can't be overstated it can be understated i always get those two mixed up yeah so do i apocalyptic shout out to uh to katie she's listening and this is uh this is how you you end it where you began it yeah exactly exactly no thank you marty for having me on though this was really really cool thank you for listening thank you for contributing to the podcast with the intro and uh yeah it's crazy to see uh there's just some some dude in my dms like hey i made this intro for you it's like now you're crushing it unchained you're you're on the show uh because merit because you're doing fucking incredible things educating and onboarding people so keep crushing it yourself yeah thank you let's get a billion uh billion folks set up with private

keys that's the goal now i mean it has been the goal but now it's going to be a center stage so let's make it happen freaks we'll get there I'll come back on when we're at a billion this is going to be a bit awkward of an ending

because car isn't here so I'm going to I'm going to say my my end spiel then I'm going to get up and hit stop record on the computer over there

but enjoy the rest of your day enjoy your weekend we're going to win freaks peace and love okay