TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #366: The Colossal Multisig with Paul Miller

Episode Date: October 12, 2022

Join Marty as he sits down with Paul Miller to discuss the 998 of 999 multisig. They also discuss early days of podcasting, educating users through UX, and whether Bitcoin was divine intervention. Follow Paul on Twitter Shoutout to our sponsors: Unchained Capital Braiins HodlHodl CrowdHealth TFTC Merch is Available: Shop Now Join the TFTC Movement: Main YT Channel Clips YT Channel Website Twitter Instagram Follow Marty Bent: Twitter Newsletter Podcast

we're live i'm sitting sitting now with paul miller we just recorded this is what you freaks are about to listen to i hope you enjoy it what about you do you think they should enjoy it absolutely okay after they click the forward 45 seconds button uh eight eight or nine times the advertisers don't like me telling the skip ads so i'm not telling you should i'm applying they might they're funny ad reads i try to make them funny go listen to them support the show support the show at least at least listen to the podcasting 2.0 value for value it was brought to you by our good friends at unchained capital they're right down the hall from me here at the bitcoin commons

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I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin. If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. You probably should be. What was it like starting a podcast in 2009? Or taking over a podcast? Taking over a podcast. Even back then, you had those snowball mics or whatever. um i don't know the i think

i don't know a podcast always kind of felt like a big deal to me because i was listening to them so much so like i know podcasts are a really big deal now but in 2009 it felt like a big deal to be on a podcast like it almost exactly the same to me if that makes sense yeah i don't think i started listening to podcasts until like 2011 and rogan started blowing up but that wasn't even podcasting i was like watching via youtube i i heard about there's a magazine called mac addict that my parents got me for christmas so i i'd get these magazines i'm very i'm very old and they'd be about you know here's cool things you can do with your mac and i think this is pre-ipod it's like this kind of idea of pirate radio right so you you have a multimedia computer that can

play audio files and you have a web browser you could record an audio file put that up you know and other people could listen to it so i i did a podcast when i was like 16 um it was about like anime and jrpgs good luck finding that what uh what was the podcasting scene like it like it was a small i don't think there was even rss for it it was just yeah apple but 2009 you're saying or yeah i mean i felt it was like really mature it's mostly apple the apple apple podcast uh was kind of the only directory um the the from a personal perspective the podcasting that i did in gadget was really valuable because a bunch of us or me uh josh and neelai were on this podcast we built a really nice audience for ourselves and then when we decided to leave in gadget and start

our own publication which was eventually called the verge we basically took the audience with us because they followed us to like an interim podcast called this is my next and when we launched the verge uh that audience came along as well and so you know instead of just like disappearing from in gadget nobody knows where we are and then pop up you know a year later with a website like that would have been a really hard transition but the podcast was was able to keep this really loyal uh audience which was really really cool yeah it is the beauty of podcasting it's all about the freaks out there listening that's right what i mean i should be asking you tips i mean this has turned into a media company what was it like starting the verge i mean that

was that was a pretty fun time there was a lot of ideas and it was tough because not a lot of the ideas um they wouldn't all come true like i i remember kind of like i got in this kind of blank piece of paper mode you know and then i feel like there's something about the constraints of the market or what everybody else is doing that kind of collapsed that possibility space back into something that was not so different uh the verge the really exciting thing about the verge was this idea that uh were the magazines now that you don't just have to you don't have to be on a physical newsstand to do like premium like magazine style articles like we we we're just a bunch of little bloggers but we can do premium premium work but ultimately that is actually really hard to fund

and then the verge became enamored with like facebook clicks and those short form um social videos yeah listicle yeah so it's just like that the the where the revenue is where the traffic is kind of ultimately starts to like shape how the media company actually operates so like it might be fun to come up with really cool ideas how to change everything but that's just not you know in that time that's not really how it worked out it felt like they had to feed the people's attention spans that's what we've like started branching into that too i'm getting not forced to but told like hey if you want to grow this thing you need like top of the funnel like one minute clips i've never done that yeah i i felt this real tension uh with those short media clips

at the verge because i felt like if one of our loyal people those people who followed us from Mingadji, you know, the really true diehards. If one of those saw one of these little clips, I think they'd feel condescended to. Odell was one of these people, wasn't he? The devil? Odell. Yes, the devil.

The devil, yeah. That's our nickname for him behind the scenes. Yeah, Odell was a Verge fan. I started listening to TFTC right around when Rabbit Hole Recap started. um and you were like part of my like bitcoin journey of like you would say what's up freaks and i was like okay i i i thought of myself as an outside observer like let me look at this ecosystem and see what i what i like about it and then i i liked what you guys had to offer

but then i started hearing matt talk about um oh he would do like disclosure disclosure which is like a it's a thing that we'd always do in the verge cast because there's all these interconnected media companies and my co-worker's wife works for facebook and so we're talking about facebook and then we have to disclose and stuff like that so matt would kind of like i felt like he was giving me a little head nods to the verge cast so when i reached out to him i was like do you listen to the verge cast oh yeah i do i mean you've got a blue check i do that's probably big for matt when you reached out i was like you listen to verge finally some recognition from the from the media elite what uh what drove you to listen to rhr and tftc why why bitcoin at

that time i i 2018 yeah 2000 yeah late 17 2018 i i know i remember i'm pretty bad with the dates and the timeline stuff but i know um i'd heard of bitcoin a few times i was pretty familiar with it because I was in the tech scene and I looked into it enough to decide like oh yeah seems like a working system that's cool we don't need another money because we already have a money but I guess if you needed to have another money that would be that would be great um so I didn't understand the economic side of what was so failed about the money and then uh that this fork wars happened and i'm like hearing like roger ver like crying on a podcast and like i'm like listening to these debates and like i don't know i have no idea who is the real bitcoin you know um so you know that

was kind of like a little like unsettling or just like i don't know i don't know enough about this to to get involved but i've for a long a longer time than i've been interested in bitcoin been really interested in decentralization i think that that like top-down control is is is really inefficient and and so i've been just kind of learning about that for for a while and so i was like i was much more interested in ethereum this idea of because like i said i didn't i don't need a new money but i do want to find a way to like decentralize these applications distributed compute yeah this this it sounds great um and the nice thing about tuning in to media like yours reading the bitcoin standard um the noted podcasts like michael and pierre were big for me

but basically once i was able to gain enough technical knowledge of about bitcoin and about ethereum it was just it was just really obvious that ethereum made this sort of like a dump you you can't do you basically have reinvented this centralization problem you're trying to coordinate everything bubble it up to like this this centralized um coordinating mechanism which is the the blockchain even if the blockchain is distributed over a bunch of computers if all if all state if every time someone clicks the heart button on twitter to create a like you know if that always has to coalesce into one blockchain that's just not going to work and that's what they that's how they design their system so once i kind of really

understood that and i think that also kind of maybe played into i don't remember which came first but this understanding of which bitcoin was bitcoin it's like oh the one that's not making like this dumb trade-off decision uh to try to get all state in the world every you know mcdonald's purchase is probably not going to end up living on the true bitcoin blockchain uh we're going to have to figure out other other systems because the more important thing is the the distributed decentralized nature yeah that's funny you bring that up because just before you walked in here i saw a tweet uh officially now 50 of ethereum validating nodes are on the ofat compliant list oh good i mean they got what they were they got what they were working on yeah they designed a

system and they built it hey good for them congrats hey shout out to the devs over there shipping they're shipping code hey you can build good job all the builders are over there fiddling fiddling that's why uh what but before we get to why you're here because there is a specific topic i want to sit down and talk about with paul i'm sitting down with paul miller follow the verge verge cast not working uh at voltage and doing many other things a lot of other things yeah i've actually kind of got some some some news some news oh good so i've been doing front end at voltage and uh voltage is now doing some kind of some research stuff and wants to fund some open source stuff so uh voltage is going to be funding me and tony

to work on mutiny oh hell yeah we're going to be working on some other stuff there too but we're going to be working at mutiny and we're going to build the privacy focused wallet for for everybody all right let's start with mutiny so it's a privacy focused wallet lightning only correct yeah and right now you can only send yeah and yeah i mean i've got it on my phone if i don't know if that's if it helps at all yeah logan uh look it up you guys have a website yeah it's a mutinywallet.com we'll put it up on the screen but no this is a very important project obviously tony tony spaghetti has been very uh tony georgia tony spaghetti like you're um disrespecting his culture georgia all right tony spaghetti georgia yeah so you guys came up with this idea you've

been working on what for like three to six months now yeah so we um we started at a hackathon and And kind of the biggest trick in Mutiny is that we spin up a new node for each channel open. It's built on Sensei in the background. John Cantrell's project. Yeah, exactly. Which is built on LDK, Matt Corral's project. There's a lot under the hood.

And so that idea, but basically the framework that we're kind of going in with this is what if we designed a wall, you know tony has written this really great piece on lightning privacy and there's a lot of knowledge in there and there are a lot of gotchas in a lot of ways lightning is is more private than on-chain but there are a lot of ways that you can um you know leak details about yourself or correlate a lightning payment with an on-chain payment and therefore you end up with the same privacy as on-chain so you lose this advantage that lightning could theoretically provide and so the idea with

the wall is can how much of this the know-how that we have of how to be private with lightning can we encode into a user interface to just either not let a user do something that's not private which is in the joke right now is we don't receive we don't have a good private way to receive you can deposit funds like you can send on-chain funds to fund the channel open but then you only send out from and so obviously to ship a wallet it will probably have received but right but right now that kind of helped us get into this mindset of like well we're gonna make the the private choice and but still make an easy to use beautiful wallet and and so just trying to get the privacy stuff out of the user having to remember it all and rather they chose a product from a lot there's

a lot of great options obviously in in lightning already but they chose one that would on purpose guide them to to to the private thing now i like that design approach start with the end goal of the best privacy that you can potentially attain on lightning and then just take your time getting there start with send only um make sure that it's completely private from the base when you're sending it out and then figure out how to add the uh receive privacy so i guess that going into the gotchas of sending and receiving transactions privately over the lightning network receiving is obviously one of those gotchas somewhere yeah because basically to receive you have to say hey here's my node it's this one and my node pubkey is it's like it's kind of it just ends up obviously

you know correlated with um non-chain transaction and so it just it's just you're kind of doxing yourself in some sense when you receive because you provide information about your node in the invoice so that they know how to route to how to get there um so we'll need ways to improve that what are the top ways that you're bullish on improving that are you a big fan of rendezvous routing uh i think yeah the hot new thing is well i should there's so much going on that i should mention i'm i'm working on a a like a lightning like kind of the future of lightning privacy report um um with uh tony and ben and evan um and uh it were so we're kind of investigating a lot of these kind of newer tech like uh route blinding trampoline um uh splicing there's a lot of new and

then ptlcs will be a big big deal there's a lot of like future technology that can improve can we depend on ptlcs what's that can we depend on ptlcs in the transition from hclcs to ptlcs pretty arduous you just gotta you're gonna have to open new channels i think i don't think there's going to be like a nice friendly switch over as far as i know maybe maybe there will be and so if you freaks are unaware what we're saying here seems like we're speaking in hieroglyphics right now when you open up a lightning network channel use an htlc a hash time lock contracted to a two multi-sig which creates a two-way channel well one way until they open up um with you the other direction and that's one way to do it and what makes ptlc as possible snore right yeah i think

it has something to do with snore and but it's the it's a point time lock contract so it has something to do with the elliptic curve and so you're um like right now the the privacy gain with with with ptlc over htlc is like you basically have a hash of of this you know the hash time lock contract you have this hash that's stable across every hop in in the route and so a bad actor on point a and and further down the route could kind of correlate this payment and and track payments across the lightning network better worth point because point with ptlc because it's like elliptic curves stuff and you can you know add and subtract things to you know and just kind of those cool cryptography math things that i don't really know but i've kind of get a like a vague

sense of how they work um that that number that id is going to look different across each each step of the of the route and so even if the bad actor is on two points of the route they're not going to know for sure that these two payments correlate yeah with an hdlc like if one part the closer to the beginning of the route has one value that's lower and towards the end of the route it's higher they can sort of assume like this is probably like the same htlc because it's building on on it like are you talking about like the the the amount of the actual it's like i'm assuming it's the same route plus a couple fees of all the hops yeah yeah there's that number but think there's also yeah it's just the actual hash of that hash time lock contract yeah and that's

the stable identifier across these hubs it's a lot there's a there's a lot and i want to be absolutely clear like i'm i'm i'm around these other this is why i came to austin is to to hang out with like kind of the the you know bitcoin developers people who really know their stuff and we're all learning at the same time but some of us are way better at it than than others and i'm a front-end developer and i just try to keep up i try to take notes i try to ask questions to like to learn more um i'm like with with these guys like they're the ones that are figuring out like exactly you know how to explain you know trampoline and and route blinding and stuff like that i'm helping them make like pretty pictures to to explain it better you know so so that that

kind of work is is sort of my like niche right now in austin is being around really smart developers and gives me opportunities you know if i if i put a button on their their really cool shit well now there's something that people can use you know more effectively yeah don't sell yourself short design is desperately needed in this space good design is lacking in the bitcoin space it's getting better it's getting better historically it's been severely lacking and so that's cool announcement on the show shout out to voltage for funding us yeah thank you graham yeah and so you're building mutiny on LDK, which is an interesting segue point to why I brought you on, which is what happened earlier this week, and I guess this ties into privacy and PTLCs to

some degree, but there was an individual who made a 998 out of 999 multi-sig taproot address, i guess uh it had nothing to do with the lightning network correct correct yes barack he he works on like um liquid stuff yeah here we have the there we go i did 998 of 999 tab script multi-sig and it only costs four dollars and 90 cents in transaction fees and if you scroll down a little bit logan you'll see our good friend ben saying lol this this broke out one day so this was a big thing uh sunday night actually happened uh central time uh this went on barack made this transaction and it basically shut down or who knows whether it shut down lnd but there was it was hard to reach consensus between lnd nodes and had nothing to do with the lightning

network specifically where lnd is implementation of it but the fact that they were leveraging btcd right which is a library yeah and btcd wasn't uh compatible with this type of tab script multisig right there's the yeah so there's so many concepts here and i want to help you unpack all of them and it's been really fun like investigating this myself because it's almost like it's like um a curriculum for learning about bitcoin learning about bitcoin consensus and learning how that relates to lightning dependencies all that shit yeah so um so yeah this transaction um just to be clear it it is so when segwit had a size limit for how big of a script how big of a transaction you could you could put there how big of a script your transaction could have which is like 1100

bytes or something like that or 11 000 bytes something like that and taproot which is so segwit is like v0 taproot is v1 of segwit so it's kind of an upgraded segwit and it has tap script but still you know it's still like bitcoin script basically um it doesn't have that size limit anymore it's basically as big as um a block is the is the size limit for your script and so i don't know exactly why but there's for some reason something they figured in the taproot whatever they were worried about limiting the size before they're not worried anymore and so um when when um and so lnd has upgraded to support taproot and btcd has been upgraded to support taproot and they ran all the the test vectors of you know that bitcoin d has

for like here's everything that we think could happen on the network everything that you know a lot of tests that of what valid transactions look like they ran those same things on lnd it's all been fine um but nobody had published a transaction this large on the actual chain or the test or on testnet because because brock actually ran this on testnet first and that testnet a bit um lnd is also broken by this um so when this this this hit the chain lnd which uses like you said btcd which is an alternative bitcoin implementation like an alternative to bitcoin core but also has a lot of bitcoin oriented logic that lnd uses even if your lnd node is pointed at bitcoin d as it's like block source it might still be using some bcd

logic and part of that logic is how it parses transactions so lnd's consensus code and btcd's consensus code it was correct for this upgrade where where tap script scripts can be huge but the parsing wasn't so the parsing in btcd was rejecting this transaction as invalid even though it is a valid transaction according to the actual you know bitcoin consensus rules so you could kind of the way you could kind of see it as is is that in some sense uh btcd was viewing a tap root a trap to root tech transaction as like hard fork like btcd kind of hard forked because it didn't anticipate this this kind of transaction that was actually you know valid according to the software because they basically had too strong of a rule um for for how they they

parse these transactions was it something as simple as a limit in a config file is that what it was or yeah it was just like a hard-coded size limit because like because basically if you imagine they had the the size limit was correct in segwit that you only have this this max size of transaction but they didn't up that size limit to be able to handle these these tap script transactions that can be larger now it seems like a pretty egregious oversight it is yeah i mean it's a it's a it's a liability of having a separate bitcoin implementation which kind of sucks because i i would love it i would love to live in a world where we had a bunch like bitcoin consensus rules were so small and so you know like modular yeah

you could just print them out on a piece of paper and like 72.5 and like this is the big this is bitcoin as long as you agree by these rules you're doing bitcoin but in fact there are there's a lot of this is sort of implicit consensus like it's not the rules engine that's checking if something's valid but if you're rejecting a transaction as it comes in over the wire um that is you know implicitly consensus you know so that's why as much as we you know want to narrow bitcoin d down to just consensus you know the period peer-to-peer layer really matters in in bitcoin d um and and how yeah so anyways yeah it's um it sucks and uh and so basically what happened is l d um would mark itself as it's not a synced to the latest tip tip of the chain um or like

sync would be false something like that also if you restarted lnd it would not come back to our operational because it wouldn't be able to get to to the chain tip and but lnd nodes were so this broke broke lnd basically core lightning wasn't affected as ldk none of the other implementations were affected it's just lnd but these these nodes were broken in the sense that they they were not they didn't have the security properties of lightning anymore where you're checking on chain to make sure your channel partner is not like messing with you but you could still like send and receive and route you shouldn't but you could like so you know i fired up you know zeus talking to my lnd node running on voltage still on 15.1 because all versions of lnd were broken by

of this um and and i could send send funds just fine um but it was in a the node itself was actually in a bad state yeah no i don't think the gravity of this but is it a bug what would you consider yeah it's a bug the gravity of this bug should be discounted because like you said you're running your voltage on d node on 15.1 and it borked everything before 15.2 so essentially if you want to be compatible with lnd today you have to upgrade to 15.2 yeah and that's a big um burden you know so like the timeline was basically the this this bug was noticed around like 4 p.m or something like that texas time sunday sunday and um on like voltage we had like alerts go off whatever that these these nodes aren't sinking to the chain for some reason and um and then

there there was a patch out around like nine or ten and we were able to to push that um to our nodes um and l d was like you know that built that patch because they have to kind of ship all these binaries all the compiled versions of l d so we were able to get that to our customers pretty quickly and then there's a you know there's a button to upgrade um so in some sense like voltage is like this line of defense of this difficulty of running your node but you know we've had uh you know challenges upgrading from 15.0 to 15.1 for instance so let's say you are a company that is still on a slightly older version because you're having some struggles you know upgrading like um now you have to go into high gear and upgrade you never want to have

to have to do a major breaking upgrade in a in a hurry like that on a sunday night on a sunday night what uh what are some of the struggles of upgrading oh there's just little little bugs little incompatibilities there's just you know they're major versions for a reason like there's know just stuff changes and you need to make sure you know everything still works also you know you have to um like the tools your nodes got to go down for a little bit to upgrade yeah so you're saying you got to make sure everything works like the tools that you guys have built to interact with your nodes are running as expected yeah i don't remember exactly what it was with 50.1 that provided some challenge for us but yeah you know one of the things that we're doing with um

Um, but yeah, like the API, you have to make sure that any APIs that you're calling still work and whichever, you know, flavor, like whichever backend you've chosen to run L and D on that still needs to work. Um, like, you know, database wise. Um, but, uh, but yeah, and you're, you just, I'm trying to, trying to remember what we, well, we also do a lot of stuff with, um, with the encrypt, like L and D nodes can be encrypted at rest um which we we take advantage of at voltage um so that so that you know when the node is shut down you know it's encrypted and then you need a password to unlock the node

that kind of stuff i don't know if that exactly was but yeah there's just a lot of um details to however you know somebody's deployed lnd and so it's not uh the nice thing about this bug and it's a kind of a property of the lightning network is that we we have as far as i understand as far as how you would exploit this to harm someone to actually steal funds is going to be some sort of unilateral force close where you would you see that that this lnd node or you you assume that this lnd node is susceptible to this bug hasn't been updated so they're in a in a bad state where they don't really understand what's going on in the chain and so you you publish this old transaction this old version of the channel state where you have more of the funds

on your side than you actually should and so you do like a unilateral force close and the whole property of lightning is that if a if a force closed transaction like that is published through the blockchain you have like two weeks to do a justice transaction and you actually get to sweep all the funds it's you know you have to punish someone for trying to cheat you with a wrong force close and so um those don't unilateral force clothes don't happen very often in lightning for for whatever reason it's not that antagonistic of a network right now but so i can imagine there are some some something like that could be done to someone whose lnd node is in a bad state so that basically gives people running lnd kind of a two-week

timeline to update to 15.2 the new version that patches this problem and if and then now they will be able to sync to the chain and if anything bad has happened if anybody's been trying to screw them they're going to be able to detect that publish the justice transaction so in that sense it's like we have this this two-week we don't want to depend on this but there's like this two-week buffer for really bad things happening it's a lightning yeah in that unilateral force closed transaction it's not hard-coded at two weeks either you can go in there and set different parameters correct like if you want to be like a month or yeah whatever yeah it's obviously yeah it's it's um defaults to two weeks but yeah you're right yeah i think peter todd was tweeting about

that sunday night or monday it's like i hope more people increase the limit of their unilateral force closes because again like what is the current like do we have any insight into what percentage of nodes are running 15.2 oh i have no idea yeah we're up we're updated i was on it right away i know the the umbral update is out i saw that so i think multiple the the raspberry pi kind of note in a box type things yeah so if you're out there listening to this you're running in all and dino and you're completely unaware of this bug hopefully we're we're making you aware of it now be aware of free because this bug is out there and now again it's you can argue this is like probably like the most adversarial it's not even an attack but uh that's an event to

happen to the lightning network particularly lnd to date it's kind of funny that it was just a guy messing around hey look at this cool thing i could do then he's got ben carman responding i'm like dude you just broke lnd so that's it's i find that highly entertaining there is also an aspect of me that wishes that we um like you know the ideal way for this to be discovered is somebody would break it on test net um break lnd on test net by by just testing weird shit and then they would file this like as as a critical vulnerability get it fixed and then like we'd like lnd would like explain every to everybody like three months later like hey here's what happened you know that's that's you know the best case scenario when you find a really horrible

bug is that you you you hear about it and are able to update before the bad people know about it obviously everybody found out at once with this because it was an accident but i think it kind of shows just a there's a little bit of i we're definitely past like the hashtag reckless phase but you know you know lightning could still use some some maturing and i mean obviously you know serious bugs happen in projects of all all kinds and quality but uh but yeah this this seems like something that we would have been cool if we had all found that somehow and and to be honest it also kind of shows that we're still really early with playing with taproot stuff i mean this isn't even like a taproot multi-sig it's not like musig or anything it's not signature aggregation it's

it's just the fact that it's just like it's a single leaf as far as i understand of a taproot script um and it's just uh just a ton what yeah it's just it's just a ton of a ton of signatures yeah and uh tony and ben did a reproduction where they created a a bitcoin script that it would like pushes 520 bytes onto the the stack then drops them and then 520 bytes and drops them it's like op drop it's just a really funny looking script and it also you know it also breaks lnd um so as i saw that tony tony did that last night he like published this transaction to a network on his computer now alice doesn't understand the the blockchain anymore so it means that like you know we we probably need to be i don't know i don't know need or should like

obviously i'm not doing it myself but hopefully we can kick the tires more of taproot and you know what what is possible now with these you know these changes that that we have but are they're hard to make use of so far yeah it feels like this instance could either be a lucky one or an unlucky one where you have this barack making this transaction that borks lnd and it's either a moment of like oh wow like now we know where a lot of the pain ports points are or it's for an attacker oh wow like here's an attack vector that we should explore more and yeah yeah here's a relatively untested area of the ecosystem like maybe i should be attacking but i think you know you know white hats kind of should see this as a similar call to action like here's a relatively

untested portion of the ecosystem maybe i should be attacking to be able to you know file vulnerabilities before before the bad guys do find them yeah antoine gleb if you're out there they're my favorite white hats on the little lady network they're probably all over it antoine specifically clip yeah if you if you want to reproduce this tony actually posted it on uh he's working on a thing for his tab comp workshop it's called ellen's ploy and it's you know to to run different um attacks on the lightning network and he has added now this lnd breaker as i think it's probably the first exploit he's actually got in there but if you go on stacker news pull up pull up l exploit you can you can break your own like reg local reg test network

if you'd like i mean the the lnd network lnd is already uh broken by this single transaction on maintenance so you can't like re-break it or extra break it or anything like that but if you start up a new reg test network you can experiment experiment and experience breaking lnd yourself so i'm gonna ask like why weren't other implementations affected and i assume it's because they don't have this btc d dependency yep um but do you foresee any taproot like unknowns affecting things like uh core lightning declare ldk i mean if i knew those things i would be i think i would be working working on them or telling somebody about them no i'm not i would love to be able to anticipate those kind of of unknown unknowns um but um i mean there are it's

just i mean you know the whole the whole moose sig eventually you know lightning will want to upgrade to these native um taproot multi-sig that will just look like you know like like a single sig yeah in the happy path they'll just look like a single sig on chain and that will be great um help for privacy yeah it'll be super helpful for privacy you'll make yeah it will it'll basically create an awesome and onset for lightning channel opens um so you know that's going to be that's just going to be a huge shift for lightning um and so there's just going to be a lot of work to do um and and there are also i mean the cool thing about the uh it's like the same reason that it's kind of dangerous to have more than one bitcoin implementation as as sad and kind of

boring as that is um there's kind of this really great strength to having multiple uh uh lightning implementations i mean i know for instance that the ldk um has discovered a lot of problems with lightning uh just just by by virtue of being another implementation writing their own tests you know getting things working um there's been you know random um interoperability problems between the Lightning node implementations. And while on the Bitcoin layer, that's like, oh, interoperability problems, we're talking hard forks. Like, that's awful.

And the Lightning, it means, you know, it means a chance to better refine our definition of this kind of looser consensus. Because it doesn't really matter if that guy over there runs whatever, you know, he made his own Lightning node implementation out of duct tape you know if you and i our channel works and we can you know pass these hdlcs back and forth and sign things and update if it's working between us lightning's working and if

it works with you and me and and alice and then bob and we can route through the four of us lightning's working it doesn't matter if someone somewhere else on the on the lightning network is running something weird and it breaks so so and that's a kind of an awesome strength of the lightning network is that in one sense consensus doesn't matter yeah you create this i mean you want to say bifurcated but insulated zones within the topology of the network where people run different implementations can still communicate with each other and even with other implementations the interoperability is there but no it's a fascinating fascinating case study we've we've stumbled into this week is pretty i'm like about to sit down for sunday night dinner and i hear

like i just see ben laughing like he's a true calendar i was like what the fuck but um going back luckily this happened in the bear market too again we're probably lucky number one that was found discovered patched number two the timing of it all like can you imagine raging bull now bull market everybody's like lightning's the future of payments and then you have this oh um the most popular implementation just doesn't work correctly well i think that's why it's just so important that we break our own shit ourselves because i think it's embarrassing if other people find our problems for us so we should we should be actively trying to break lightning as much as possible to make sure because

i do have this vision of it as you know it's it's an alternative to to visa it's um the ui ux of lightning i think is already superior to credit cards in most cases other than like i really like like boop to pay um the fact you don't even have to unlock your phone um as much i don't know i really like the tap to pay credit card experience but like buying some shoes online you know it's just it's just it's just ridiculous and then buying a digital product online where they don't need shouldn't even need your shipping address and the fact that you're putting in your phone number and your email you know all this stuff for a credit card form it's just stupid so lightning has some awesome uh advantages just in ui wise and then it has this final settlement aspect to it

that's beautiful from a financial point of view and it has unlimited scalability due to this you know this peer-to-peer nature where you know it doesn't there's no limit to how many how much you know because it's not centrally coordinated there's no limit to how big it can scale how many transactions it could handle so it's it's really great but it needs to i think some of the biggest problems right now is tour tours is tour fucked i'm i'm over tour um and then i it's dumb to say that because i don't i have a you know uh here's a better thing than tour um but you know if if you're talking about payment reliability and that's going to be really important for a mass adoption um you can't have this unreliable if you can't have core parts of the of the routing

happening over tor so we need to so either we're going to sacrifice on privacy by making clear net connections between important nodes which also could be pretty centralizing um uh or we find other ways that are hopefully still private but uh hopefully lower latency and more resilient um and and have more uptime than tor does to be the backbone of this network yeah because it's been what six months since tor started getting ddos like i mean it's been getting ddos for for years but it seems like this particular distributed denial of service attack is extremely successful tor has a i said it has tor's problem is that it is in some sense centralized it's hard to make things it's hard to make a good communication that work without that

centralization but if you think about it lightning is in some sense a better model for how you would want to make some sort of network of things that achieve a useful end right like there's no there's no uh directory that you go in the lightning network to look up things about nodes right because that's what gets like ddos and in tor is these these kind of these these net these these special nodes in tor that can tell you how to get other places in the network um i2p i really want to i really would love i mean please reach out to me i think we need i don't want to suggest that we need a task force in the sense of we need some people to sit around and have meetings about this problem

but not achieve something. But we need to find a group of crack engineers in the Bitcoin ecosystem to look into how we solve this. But like I2P is really interesting. Obviously, Bitcoin D already has it. Bitcoin Core implemented too, didn't it? Sorry, yeah, Bitcoin Core has...

Oh yeah, Bitcoin D is Bitcoin. I'm just talking about the executable. uh the yeah so i2p already exists and i2p has much more of a p2p kind of mindset but like you know p2p for actual uh internet things is just you know it's tough it's that's i don't think i2p necessarily is is is the full solve but it'd be cool if it is but whatever we do we just need to find better ways i mean maybe we maybe we run it all over nostril i i don't know are you I really, yeah, yeah, I am. I really like it. I do too. I think it's really beautiful how simple it is and that simplicity has attracted a lot of developers and the complexity that is necessary to, to achieve the applications you'd actually want to, to, to do are only need to be adopted by the application who, who actually needs that feature.

So I think it's, I think it's really smart and I think it's really beautiful. I haven't had a lot of time to work on it. I've started like some Nostra rust thing and just kind of abandoned it. But I, I used Damas, Damas before as well. Yeah. So, and, and Enigma. Yeah, I think that's, so that's, that's basically a hub and spoke model where you have these these very dumb relays right via web sockets correct yeah that's all via web sockets

so i mean that doesn't solve that doesn't solve the the lightning communication problem per se other than the fact that um the idea of you know maybe you have these routing nodes or i mean if you think of if you think of the hub and spoke model of how it ends up working for money to flow around you eventually kind of almost need something very similar at like the network layer you need like a mirror image somehow of lightening the monetary network at a network layer to keep things communicating and i don't know i've been trying to think i'm trying to think in kind of high level thoughts of of what this ultimately looks like because ultimately for two machines to communicate you know like in the ip protocol i need to know your

ip address to communicate with your with your machine there and then unless you do some sort of proxy so like um actually one interesting alternative to the tor thing is what lightning labs is doing with um uh lightning node connect and that's basically like a proxy mailbox so it's hard to get my raspberry pi and my phone to have a stable connection between each other but they can both find this proxy up in the cloud very reliable proxy right and potentially i think lower latency than uh tor probably so they can both connect to that and and send uh you know basically the same traffic that they would have sent over tor but now they just do it through that proxy and um and that's it's you know it's it's relatively private it's not the most private

but it's a pretty good solution so i don't know that's that's one way that's potentially you know how how and and it doesn't have to be run by ellen uh lightning labs like uh as they roll this out i think there'll be multiple providers providing these proxies so you can choose who you want to trust to be your middleman um yeah yeah i don't know there's a lot of there's a lot of potential solutions yeah back to nostril the big knot i mean it's not even a knock yet because it hasn't happened but people worry that scale or forgets too popular it'll be susceptible to civil attacks correct i always forget which one civil attack is um we just have like a bunch of it's not the same as a ddos but like it's pretending to be somebody i believe isn't

that what sybil is like spam spammy accounts yeah well i mean the thing about so so the thing about noster is i choose which pub keys i'm looking for like i want to subscribe to the the events published by this set of pub keys and i tell um a a uh they're not called routers whatever they're called i forget what they're called in nostr but um i tell relay really no idea which pub keys i want to be tell and i probably tell like five different relays like i'm looking for messages from from these pub keys now if a ton of people are subscribing to relays or a ton of people are publishing to relays these relays are going to like buckle under that volume of traffic um and they're going to need to somehow be incentivized to whose messages they receive

whose messages they store and who do they forward their messages to so somewhere along that chain some i believe someone will be needing to pay the relay for their service in sets i believe in sats can you think of a better money no i can't i find safety in sets me too yeah big fan it's so uh so fascinating and we're working on all this what's a few i mean you started listening to the show in 2018 now you're full-time working on bitcoin at voltage and mutiny and other projects you created the um testnet version of uh the first fedament with flutterment right they did a mainnet transaction yeah they did one but you created the uh the ios app didn't you yeah yeah yeah i was wondering the flutter yeah i mean it's it's a lot of it's i mean a lot of it's credit to

the the podcast you and parker did uh about the kind of this call to arms of like you know let's retreat from the cities um come to another city and move to another the liberal bastion of texas but let's you know i was i was suffering in new york and um as we all were at one point and uh so you know what if i um prioritize getting a job in bitcoin which i did um at voltage and prioritize getting to austin where the bitcoin developers are and um see what i could build and and so uh i did that um and it's just been absolutely wonderful it's just been so so cool to be you know i was i was in the commons just working on whatever i was working on and it comes to the end of the day and i'm like hey justin what are you working on it's like oh i made this

like real simple ui so you could uh you know so you can do um fedment stuff from an app very simple but very ugly yeah it was it was simple and it was ugly and so like well it's like well i could i could add a drop shadow to something here and um so i just started working with him on on on flutterment uh and and then they they had a big sprint in kind of this past month to get it ready to to demo and then i see this tweet where eric did uh like a main net transaction for me that is the biggest incentive there's something so cool to me that the code i write like moves money like it's like it it touches its hand and it's scary because i could get it wrong um but usually i'm not doing like the really low level logic mostly i'm doing more of the user interface so

usually i can blame somebody else um but yeah seeing that picture like it almost made me tear up like here is this app i built that just purchased coffee the most cliche thing in the world to buy with lightning but it's um yeah that's just that it's really important to me and it's very empowering you know there's no other like ecosystem like how many other developers outside of bitcoin their code moves money you know i think that's pretty rare unless you're working out like stripe or yeah yeah and there's there's so many regulatory barriers it's like it's like it's like illegal it's basically it's like against the law to write code that moves money most of the time um and then we have this better money with an open api basically

that you can just write code that moves money um and so yeah that's kind of for me like that ends up being a big a big motivator i want to get a lot better i feel like i have a ton to learn you know i helped um with with car and saw hill we started the austin bitcoin design club so i want to get more understanding of ux um i'm definitely like very passionate that that we can get better at ux in bitcoin but do it in like kind of a bitcoiny way well yeah and i mean that's something i say on this show a lot if your designer wants to innovate and really leave your mark on the world come to bitcoin and design uis and user experiences because when you think of the canvas that bitcoin provides in terms of basically creating experiences where people

interact with private public key pairs where they're interacting with these htlcs or eventually ptlc's on the lightning network they're managing uh on-chain sats and lightning network sats fediment sats whatever it may be like there's it's almost incalculable unfathomable we can't even fathom the types of design interactions that are needed to be created you have different address structures you have legacy addresses you have wrap segwit you have back dirty to native segwit now you have taproot and how do you communicate that to users how do you make sure they're comfortable with what they're doing how do you integrate multi-sig and all the backups for the derivation pass and all that shit well we we this is a real uh common um

i mean in a voltage you know someone knows about bitcoin they know about lightning they know that they need to run a lightning node they get all hyped up and they get a voltage account and they create a lightning node and then like they they learned so much and they understood so much about money and bitcoin and lightning and they they understood so much of the stack but they didn't they didn't have enough to keep going to actually have run a successful node and like open channels and stuff like that so like that that uh there's so much growth sometimes required by the user right now in our products the the hard thing is is that i think from the bitcoin perspective you know like one of the most famous books of in ux design is called don't make me think

yeah and how how fiat of a phrase can you imagine and and i think you know i i know this from like kind of a tech journalism background is that we would judge products based on like basically like how well they held your hand like how easy is this to use but if you think about um if you think about your life like like you know what are the most valuable things in your life you know yeah i'm not i'll guess for you uh but your your wife your kids health like which of those is really easy like to achieve like the most important things to us are the things that require a level of responsibility dedication like a grind and a and a faithfulness and and um like an ever deepening understanding and and just a lot of blood sweat and tears and that's what is the

most important to us so it's weird to imagine that the most important best software in our lives would be so easy that you wouldn't even have to think that you could just brain off and just like blindly feel around on this app and do the right thing um like that is what you know instagram does to to uh like get you addicted to coming back every 45 minutes or whatever their whatever the cadence that they've calculated is the most profitable without making you suspicious whatever they dial that experience in so that you know you need to come back in a certain amount of time um so many of our our our um experience especially like media experiences are really designed around kind of controlling us and and addicting us so volt so a big from a bitcoin

perspective you know i think our our interface is going to have to be so different with this i always bring up sparrow as my favorite example of a of a it's a very easy to use beautiful app but that is clearly educating you about what you're doing you see this new transaction you see these inputs and you see these outputs it's kind of visualizing a mempool.space like you can imagine a version of mempool.space just said like it's like a binary it is is one set per byte good or bad right now you know but instead it's this beautiful user interface that and then they keep on evolving it um like if you want to pull up that that transaction again uh that barack did um yeah so that that um click on the link yeah click

through it's a it's in a different language but if you scroll up uh or in the browser bar if you get rid of that everything it there's like a like a language so i think it's tr it's turkish right it's something like that it's just get rid of the tr and just have it slash tx it should be in english again okay there we go so yeah this is the transaction um like there's a obviously a lot of a lot going on in in pull that space but it's beautiful and it in some sense it's teaching you so here is this flow of of of you know this this input and output um so yeah this big input bar which is the 998 signatures necessary um and you can see the features that are turned on segwit taproot uh replaced by fee um you can see the fee he paid paid he paid four dollars and 81 cents to

break lightning the less than five dollar brock attack yeah you can actually if you click in details i believe um in on the right of inputs and outputs you can see the script um that yeah of that box there you go that that is this uh the witness don't ask me too much about this stuff i'm not great at on-chain stuff but that is the witness that was larger than was ever possible with segwit v0 this would have been rejected by a bitcoin node um um if if it was a segwit v0 transaction because but because it's a segwit v1 a taproot transaction this is legitimate this is allowed now yeah up to an entire block please please don't ever put that in a shout out make me read it on there freaks but yeah uh no as you just mentioned like that's another thing like so

you say segwit version zero and segwit version one you're talking about like beck 32 and people don't realize you're gonna have six like there are 16 different versions that you could have within beck 32 right so like now we have taproot which is version one version two could be taproot something else yeah tap taproot squared yeah hyper tap yeah yeah that was a a thing that segwit got us that was because segwit is a pretty hacky addition is it segwit or beck 32 they got this i don't know enough to the address structure that yeah but but but somehow in segwit we got this versioning scheme and now that we have this versioning scheme we can yeah iterate on that without having to do as big big of a hacky change as segwit was yeah but then this gets back

to i mean i mean early bitcoin like this is one of mercia poppinski is big he he hated the concept of beck 32 uh because there was a lot of early bitcoiners who were like legacy address maximalists like the one one in front of the address is people in early bitcoin thought moving forward like you should only ever have legacy type addresses and that's a lot of controversy um but maybe what barack did on sunday is a validation of that like hey yeah it's cool to have all these things but do you increase the attack surface or the unknowns that allow for more instability within the network you do and i i really want um i mean the the l2 eltoo um ideas the basically there's some real strong improvements to

lightning that are potentially possible with some set of soft forks and um i think i think that would be great uh but yeah you you're you're increasing the tax service i think very few things increase the tap attack surface you know actually it's just really hard to say it's it's hard to know for sure and and that's kind of the hard part about it is it's also hard to communicate some level of confidence like oh this this change to um consensus it feels really safe and like it doesn't have a lot of collateral damage whereas this one doesn't like getting a broad understanding of why that is i feel like tap roots improvements were were strong enough that it was able to how many people really understand how tap root works

probably a lot fewer than people who understand the obvious advantages of top tap root i fall into the uh the ladder bucket there yeah um and and pretty much myself as well but other soft forks like jeremy rubin's the one that comes to mind that are slightly hard that it's a slightly harder sell of what the actual advantage is have such a huge uphill because you're basically asking someone accept this hard to parse blob of of potentially damaging things so jeremy wants to introduce covenants via op check template verify which would need to enable another op code they're sort of re-enabling an opcode and adding to it correct what he wants to do i believe i think there's some kind of reserve spots for opcodes i think it just uses one of those i'm

not sure because they um because they moonlighted not moonlighted but they took out a bunch of opcodes that satoshi had originally people are like hey you're gonna fucking fork the system but yeah no it's controversial so what paul's describing here is jeremy rubin wants to use op check template verify to bring covenants to bitcoin which would enable these complex transaction schemes where you can have like a bunch of if and functions if this happens and this happens sent to this address and you can like pay people and do it in a very automated fashion yeah it seems appealing but again i'm too dumb to know what it does to the attack surface right and they might it might really not be not that much might be a nothing burger yeah i i actually i think i actually kind of like

that soft fork potentially personally but it's you know who am i to say that this is great because i don't fully understand the system well enough to really be sure but the problem is who who truly fully understands the system well enough to be sure and how can you know that they know what they're talking about yeah how do you how do you build trust i mean this is something i've been thinking a lot about uh since um the the the bitcoin miami and actually hearing the the the um the fed event guys um ob and eric i think this is before fetty was announced but yeah it was um hearing them talk about um trust as as how they're solving this custody problem really got me thinking of this kind of like trust is a scaling solution um and so in in some sense

you know trusting certain bitcoin core developers is a way of scaling like the decision making process or yeah because ultimately it matters what us node runners think about what they think because that's ultimately how you're actually going to get you know any sort of consensus change any sort of soft work through is a wide wide acceptance among node runners and or miners you know who i don't want to exactly specify what the soft fork process is because it's still obviously a little vague but um yeah it so but most of us are going to be less technical than feel comfortable like putting our stamp we're gonna put somebody else's stamp so how do we learn who to trust like bitcoin i'm gonna say you know don't trust verify but what if you're

incapable of verifying just not trusting anybody ever is not actually how we go through life so how do we get good at trust yeah trust is an essential part of humanity yeah and yeah people often conflate the very true underlying ethos of bitcoin which is like don't trust verify don't trust that coinbase is sending you or your wild software sending you the correct address verify via your node and that's particularly easy to to verify running a cli command or something like that um if i can do it most people should be able to do it but then yeah you get into these headier more obscure ideas of making protocol changes where you have to trust that somebody understands the cryptography and the interaction between the addition of this new code with the

pre-existing code or how the consensus mechanism reacts if you pull something out and that's something i'm just completely unqualified to discern for myself and it is scary that eventually bitcoin ends up in some some such complicated of a system that nobody no human can really it's it becomes kind of intractable it's just it's just the system and we just hope we hope and pray that it stays up that doesn't seem very uh i know a really the more like a really awesome version of bitcoin that i could conceive of is some something that could eventually abandoned legacy stuff so that it could try to keep it you know like everybody says you know ecdsa was a hacky workaround because snore was patented snore was patented so wouldn't it be

nice now that we have snore we could somehow simplify you know and we're just we're just so we're just going to have segwit um and we're just going to have snore and we just everything else should still work but can't can't create new ones of those that's you know but we don't we don't have that option in bitcoin um but that that is that would be kind of a beautiful world if somehow we could at least shed legacy as we add new things and that somehow we're narrowing towards a simpler system over time yes i mean i've always been pro get to as much ossification as possible i would like to see it in cruise control and you're only doing like maintenance and stuff that's absolutely necessary that's very obvious um because again i like the idea of

creating this consensus mechanism that everybody can agree on and then you just build um with yeah because now i'm like in my own head because i saw peter woola tweet out the other day like i don't like the concept of layers like lightning network isn't a layer it's like bitcoin then you build software on top of that I'll just use a layer topology on top of it well it's not really on top it's within the network with a two a two

multi-sig and then I guess you're building something on top of that because there is another node topology with it we'll just use layers but the idea of main chain consensus engine and protocol being solidified and you just build an anchor

into that has always resonated with me with that being said like we do know and this is something most people don't like to talk about even like the hardcore devs like we do know that we need at least one hard fork in bitcoin so we have to figure out how to plan for that it's like the timestamp thing yeah the unix timestamp it's called the uh it's the 2032 bug but it won't affect bitcoin until 2106 last estimate with block production times um because the way unix works it sort of has a y2k like function where it just zeros out and that would fuck up consensus so we need to hard fork to fix that at some point

in the next 80 years right and that's really interesting and i definitely don't have a good opinion on what's the best move here but but do you make that the smallest possible most surgical hard fork of all time that only touches that one thing where do you get or do you use it as like here's our chance there's our one chance you get l2 we get cis do this crazy cleanup um oh we'll see that would be even adding features i don't think you have to do that right then but it's something that can be added via soft fork probably should be added via soft fork but like the idea of like cleaning up like legacy hacks that you know in the hard fork like if you're going to actually break compatibility with man in the coma you know we've been really in this very serious informal

contract with man in the coma yes we always look out for our man in the car i take this i personally take it very seriously um but if we have to break man in the coma's node um that seems like the chance to potentially remove some legacy crowd this is something i But I don't know if that's the right engineering decision. Well, I haven't heard from this in a while. So there is a way to think of the man in the coma while doing this and stop and decrypt. This is actually me and him.

So I asked the question at Baltic Honey Badger 2018. It was like Adam Beck, I think Peter Todd, Giacomo were on stage. And I was in the crowd and I asked the question, what are we going to do about this 2032 bug? And they brushed it off, like stop and decrypt. And I talked after that. and he makes a really good point is like not the hard fork right away but like in some version whether it be version 22.0 or something you should have the hard fork in the code so somebody goes

into a coma after version 22.0 or whatever and the hard fork happens when they're in the coma their node will hard fork but can you coordinate that 80 years uh in advance i don't know oh and and that would be a good argument for keeping it small then yeah i like that bacon yeah let's front run those comas yeah exactly yeah yeah um no these are like unpopular subjects that people don't like people just like the thing of bitcoin is this perfect thing it works it's going to take over the world hyper bitcoinization is coming but it is a distributed uh software project at the end of the day comes with a lot of yeah a lot of kinks it's got a lot of little hacky things it's written in c++ you know that's a it's hard you know i was theorizing with with with ben on this like

you know this whole btc debug it's like if you imagine imagine if um you know c++ is compiled down to machine code that is ultimately what runs on um your computer and like we know that the bips aren't really bitcoin right they're trying to describe the protocol but that's not probably precise enough probably what's bitcoin is the c++ code but what's actually run is the machine going on your on your cpu um but but there's different compilers that could compile c++ and also they compile differently based on architecture so raspberry pi's arm so that's one architecture so very different machine code than like your desktop computer might be x86 um and so that's a whole different compile path in m1 that's arm as well but but but it's a very

different arm you know and so you can imagine some compile bug um that causes a hard fork right well what which bitcoin is real bitcoin the one i'm using you hope so you really hope so but i think that's just a kind of an interesting way to think and that's kind of something that i appreciate about this lnd bug is that it's kind of helping me just because it you know understanding consensus and then how consensus interfaces with this layer two or whatever term peter woola recommends i'm happy to adopt um but yeah how how this all this whole very complicated system all interacts is is very interesting not solved not i mean you know and jeremy rubin went with went through this with trying to propose a soft fork you know that's not

a solved process and to be honest there's an aspect of it that true having perfect knowledge and total understanding of how the system works would potentially be it's sort of step one of having some sort of attack vector of controlling the system if you knew for a certainty how to get soft fork into bitcoin then socially attack it yeah then you're the then if you're a bad guy that's where you bake in your attack is is your slam dunk soft fork that you just invented yeah this is why uh something beautiful about rough consensus right like that i mean that's been really driven to the fore post taproot conversations around up ctv trying to get that in it's like how do you actually do these consensus changes or these soft forks not always

a consensus change but um yeah you had things like speedy trial people really didn't like that then you have the bip 91 which is going on during the fork wars and it seems like from my observation there's going to be like a different activation method each time because people are just always going to fight over yeah optimal and and people i don't want to just call them complainers because that's not that's reductive but the uh highly critical and vocal people will find reasons to be highly critical and vocal about everyone because each method no method is actually going to be correct or perfect um so i think that's not excuse to just do anything but um i i think i actually this kind of makes me think of and i'm actually i'm really curious on your take on this

have you noticed this trend in the past maybe i'd say three months to be like really really critical of lightning uh i mean it hasn't i've been noticing it for quite a while so so where i mean where do you think this where do you think it comes from because i i i want to be i want to be like that i have this like initial skepticism of lightning obviously i work at a lightning company but bitcoin is kind of a bit of like a miracle it's like a once in a thousand years kind of invention right and so the idea that you'd have another something on the order of quality right away eight years later yeah yeah it's it's a little you know it's shocking uh it seems improbable and that's not a great heuristic of why lightning

won't work but it's just you know something that sticks to the back of my head it's like hey there's no there's no guarantee here that lightning is the exact right answer for for how to scale bitcoin no but certainly not guaranteed but again a lot of hate a lot what i don't know a lot of people kind of dunking on lightning and i'm wondering like what do you think is motivating that right this second or is there's nothing new here so yeah one thing to comment and then a question for you comment is comparing lightning's innovation on par with what satoshi brought with bitcoin let's say like it is probably in order of magnitude or two below the distributed uh no topology with a proof of work consensus as a mechanism with a built-in

difficulty adjustment i mean lightning is very cool but sort of just building and anchoring into that and everybody's very wide open with the trade-offs like hey you're um you can closer to the center of the centralization spectrum uh there are trade-offs with lightning you can run it in a decentralized way but it's it's harder people are comfortable with those trade-offs um so i would say like it's not i don't think lightning is like on par with what bitcoin brought to the world but it is certainly incredible um and then too like what particular um things are people saying that are sticking out to you i don't dwell on them so i don't really i mean there is one thing i mean i just know i've been using lightning we've been running our node and our node has been

set and forget it when we first set up our tftc node i funded it um with a bunch of bitcoin and dj manages our channels and it's just been running and uh it works and people are streaming us apps right now people are buying newsletters shout outs whatever it just works for me every day i use like i use lightning every day maybe not sending every day but certainly receiving every day it works but yeah as somebody who's built a monetization a business monetization avenue via the lightning network that does linger in the back of my mind like it is there's some point in the future where yes lightning works now it's really good but is that a product of its relative scale if it scales up does that success continue

will it collapse into that if it scales up will become antagonistic and you know are we honeymoon phase where we're not actually dealing with true like attacks on the lightning network imagine if it becomes tour that would suck yeah yeah i mean that's the thing is yeah you can't have um uh like a just some i can't have rose rose colored glasses about yeah and you can't a just sometimes networks payment network like i i went to a gas station the other day and their card was down so they just locked the door their card reader was down so they just like locked the door no gas today yeah you could yeah no gas today no snacks today you know our our machines down um that obviously doesn't um that doesn't work as as a payment system so so i think

there's something there is a potential i have this very optimistic spin for the centralization and i don't know if it's going to come true at all but i like really really would hope because i can imagine node running becoming kind of like a game and if it became possible to be a profitable node runner with a small amount of capital like let's say on the scale of a hundred to a thousand dollars um so something that like you get it you like you parlay your lawn mowing funds as a teen into this hot new node running game and you find inefficiencies in the network and you just exploit the hell out of them and like i can imagine these kind of like almost like toggle channels that are just they're just designed for very high frequency back and forth

routing so that it's not like a channel that just slowly drains in this one direction and you get fees over time and then you have to rebalance it with on chain like in this future of of node running as a game you've got to stay it's very very lightweight as far as how often you go on chain because on chain is going to be relatively expensive compared to the kind of money you're earning but if you can find a way to run this toggle channel and you're just getting fees back and forth back and forth um and that somehow that system becomes inefficient because you know hub and spoke is a scaling method but ultimately hubs get bogged down um they can only handle so many spokes so you're going to need more and more hubs um

hopefully you know node implementations get more scalable and more resilient and they can handle more spokes as well but um so anyways that's my like absolutely most optimistic case for for either they where you we have a bunch of teens running around just profiting like crazy every time we make a lightning transaction because it you know wraps through their nodes because their nodes are just so well positioned i could see i mean if the machine payable web becomes a thing and that increases the amount of transactions to orders of magnitude above what we're imagining right now i can see that definitely becoming a thing but even if it doesn't like i've always had this these like again i'm a media company we run our node we balance our channels like i think

when bitcoin adoption hits a certain tipping point it becomes and we hit a moment where it's like yeah this is happening this is like how we should build our payments avenues for our company um and this is like our bank now is bitcoin i think companies are just gonna have dedicated lightning node operators that are paid to make sure that they're have a node up and running and it's profitable and so in that world we have media companies running nodes banks running nodes payment companies running nodes car washes running nodes whatever um i think that provides sufficient decentralization as well well you can also imagine a world like that if most nodes are running by people who are relatively like full

time like if you think of how the actual internet is work how the how the actual internet works um there's these like peering agreements and a lot of them are run like they basically there's there are the people who choose which fiber optic things plug into which switches and how they kind of share network and a lot of that um especially you know i don't know where things are at now but i i feel like i was looking into this a lot during like the whole net neutrality debate and basically there's a lot of these informal agreements you know among the dudes running these networks and obviously there's also business business agreements between these networks it's like okay i have a lot of outbound internet traffic i'm kind of looking to balance that out on this pipe or you know what

whatever it might be that that that network works really well i i think the internet broadband i think is it's working right now it's pretty pretty dang good um so if you could imagine some a layer two you can either imagine lightning will work like this with with kind of high touch relationships between channel partners not just um you know spray and pray connecting channels with random anonymous nodes um but you can also imagine a simpler layer two of payment channels um between people like maybe doesn't even have to be the whole network like maybe you know a channel moving funds back and forth you know maybe you could imagine something simpler with a little less consensus a little less try to solve everything of an ethos than lightning has you

could imagine a layer two that would be simpler designed for you know like two two banks you know think of how you know banks like want to settle their checks at the end of the day or whatever and like oh i have some of your money you have some of me if you just had one big fat payment channel and you just push stuff back and forth um and then if if you know if you run out if if it gets too far on one end you maybe close and start a new one um so you can imagine just non-lightning payment channels being an important aspect of a bitcoin financial system like it doesn't have to have all the complication of lightning no even though we're thinking very adversarial this episode i'm very bullish on lightning um me too again i use it every day

i'm it brings me value i'm building a lightning wallet and i love using it and i love the ux and yeah it's awesome i really want to figure out subscribes i think i think subscribe because like i don't i don't like streaming small amounts of money over time but i also i'm a little tired of skipping to like seven and a half minutes into every tftc episode i have to do that for this one um uh so i want to be able to pay you the equivalent of like five or ten dollars a month and then every time i get um tftc rhr there's no there's no ad read and um and so that's kind of the world i want to live in and i've definitely supported other podcasts like on patreon i started a podcast for a little while on patreon and people subscribed and paid to me i mean the you're

obviously banking on the idea that people are going to subscribe to you and forget they're subscribe to you and that's a kind of part of the business model but we don't have to do that in bitcoin we just need some sort of protocol where i click subscribe when i'm on tftc's site and that opens up my wallet and tells my wallet about this recurring thing that i want to do it's you're not going to be pulling payments from my wallet it's my wallet but i want to encode into my wallet my desire to pay you on a recurring basis and then my wallet will remind me and it will say hey it's time to pay marty or he's going to start reading ads at you again and then i'll click yes and i'll feel good about myself i think that future is possible obviously the biggest hurdle

is the rss feed but i forget who i was talking to i was talking to somebody in like the last month apparently the podcasting 2.0 team is working on a way to create a separate branch in rss feed so you can have the ad read mp3 then you have a branch that's value for value podcasting 2.0 compatible that is the audio without the ad oh that's exciting and you can i could be wrong i could have dreamt this but it's a good dream it is but um yeah so the concept would be you have one rss feed two audio files one with ads one without and those who are subscribing or paying sats um get the i don't even think you would have to subscribe you just have to be listening via podcasting 2.0 app that has agreed to stream sats you'd get the no ads version

yeah well i'd appreciate it yeah i i actually feel like my time listening to podcasts has definitely like gone down over the past um year especially maybe you know two years no no pretty much a year that i've been the year i've been in austin as i kind of feel like i'm i'm getting more done and i have less down time i have like less time that feels like it's not productive that is like the good time to listen to a podcast um so yeah it just makes me resent the ad reads a little bit more i'm sorry but um gotta feed my family i want you i want you i want them to eat but do you do you paul yeah that's why i'm proposing a subscription protocol for lightning so just so we should build that and then we'll be good um yeah no i'm the same way though i

actually got jaded i mean i listened to so many podcasts between like 2011 and 2018 actually when started this podcast that's one thing that's my alpha everybody's like oh like do you like listen to everybody else's bitcoin podcast and try to compete like that's that's like what i try not to do and try not to listen to unless there's like one where it's like all right i should do research on this because i'm probably gonna talk to this guy at some point in the future girl um but yeah i don't really listen to any other podcasts in the bitcoin space i listen to a podcast it's usually like no agenda let's listen to rogan make some history podcasts but it's just tim dillon just to like get out of the bitcoin space for a while um yeah no i don't listen to podcasts at all like

only when i'm in the car can i ask you a question as as somebody trying to like i tried to listen to the i did actually listen to the the greg moss greg foss greg foss sorry greg greg foss mark moss and greg foss here oh there you go that's what mark foss that's yeah um greg foss episode uh i'm just really bad at a lot of macro terminology and ever since i've been into bitcoin like listening to you talk listening to preston pish talk like people who have experience in finance just have a set of probably like 25 nouns that i just just lose me every time um so like yeah so i do could you explain in like five minutes what is going on in the large world because i really feel like lately this is one of the biggest it feels like there's a financial

crisis happening or unfolding and i i feel like this is the first one that i'm not it's like normally i rubberneck is that the car crashes and i'm not rubbernecking at this one because i just don't feel either like i comprehend what's going on or like i want to spend the time to comprehend what's going on all right five minutes so what's going on right now let's compare it to so what greg and i talked about were sovereign credit default swap spreads which are on the rise so if you remember going back to 2008 yeah uh credit default default swap cds's were a big part of the 2008 financial crisis they didn't drive the financial crisis but that's what the people in the big short the michael berries of the world they went out they noticed that the mortgage-backed

securities were likely to fail so what they did was create these credit default swaps uh that allowed them to short that those products so it's like a bet on somebody going bankrupt yes exactly okay then you profit from it got it um so that was 2008 housing crisis michael berry and crew created specific credit default swaps to um bet against the housing market essentially and they profited greatly from that fast forward to today and what we have what greg and i were focused on yes we did talk about credit suisses credit default swap spreads um which are on the rise as well so that means people are betting the credit suisse is going to go under but more importantly what's really heavy right now is the fact that you have sovereign nation cds's

on the rise the spreads on the rise which is signaling to the market that there's a lot more people thinking that sovereign nations are going to not be able to pay back the debt they have accrued they're not going to be able to um basically service the debt that they've accrued so that's essentially in a nutshell in less than five minutes what's going on right yeah all these governments issued a bunch of treasury bonds here treasury bonds and uk guilts bank of japan japanese government bonds uh bank of japan um and uh basically they've all overextended themselves uh bank of japan and something like 47 percent of its bond market so it's completely propping it up um and so right now as we're rolling into this energy crisis this financial crisis

uh that's having ripple effects across the global economy most particularly in europe where energy prices are going up so businesses are shutting down less revenue to service the economy to service the debt and as well at the same time you have the fed raising rates which is increasing the interest payments on those debt on that debt so it's just basically what's happening right now is uh a global shit show when and it's becoming more and more obvious that the governments are not going to be able to pay back their debt and this is my kind of follow-up on that the fed is raising rates right and that seems very bad for other countries it's bad for us too but when we print money that's bad for other countries in one way or another well so it's just like you know

like i'm uh you know i've heard jimmy songs talk right like when you buy a house that bank prints four hundred thousand dollars and that money is basically the devaluation of everybody else in the world's dollars yes um so printing money is bad yes it's all bad now with this the the fed raising interest rates in some sense disincentivizing this bank's printing money that is also seeming to be potentially very harmful to other like to the most vulnerable economies so like i'm trying not to harm the most vulnerable economies i'm in charge of the fed i mean you're damned if you do you're damned if you don't so it's the whole it's the whole so this is one of the other popular tropes on wall street for anybody who's like a fed

hawk and really is against the um the invasive monetary policy or what's the evolved like the fed getting involved in monetary policy creates basically a rock and a hard place from which the fed has to operate and again it goes back to the debt so you have two ways you default on your debt you either print your way out of it and just inflate away the money that you're paying back and you can pay back your debt but the money that you're paying it back in is not worth anything or you overtly default, which is what the rising interest rate environment is creating. Lower interest rate, you debase the money to a certain point. You can pay back the debt, but the money's worth nothing. Rising interest rate, you increase the amount of money on your interest payments.

You don't have enough of that money to pay, so you just default on your debts. So both things would hurt your creditors. yes in one way or another the former way inflating away is the more politically palatable way because it's a slow bleed death by a thousand cuts you wake up one day to venezuela but this one happens much quicker it's much more abrupt where you have uk pensions basically begging the bank so you're arguing in favor of money printing is what i'm hearing if you're uh it's probably the lesser of two evils actually i'm actually a fan of like rip the band-aid off like keep them high let everybody default then transition to a bitcoin standard so i don't think we should kick the can

down the road anymore i mean that's yeah i definitely think i i don't know i the the thing i had uh that really popped into my head in this last like this kind of downturn which seemed to really coincide with you know we we've been like worried about these food shortages and stuff since like the pandemic started and all these kind of energy problems and stuff like that is that the the printing really seems to lead to malinvestment it's like yes printing is is all about value destruction um and that seems so i i wanted to be like let her rip and we get hyper bitcoinization at least in dollar terms um like the bitcoin becomes worth infinity dollars because dollars worth zero and that sounds exciting but in reality i feel like that there'll just be so

much value destruction during that time but i want to avoid that if possible yeah so the printing leads to value destruction and the tightening leads to true price discovery where it's like you had all that printing all that malinvestment now interest rates are higher people are going to pay back more on their debt and they're selling the things that aren't really valuable to service those debt obligations so bitcoin apparently we're really finding out like what people value or what actual price of things are it's just beautiful it is but it's also scary because a lot of people billions of people around the world have built this worldview and this economic edifice on top of this facade yeah or it is the facade the worldview is the facade on top of

the facade was the foundation yeah it's all fucked this is why we bitcoin yeah that's funny that's why i don't know for me personally my bitcoin journey this is i mean i came into it being really attracted to the economic properties of it the monetary system but now fast forward it's almost been 10 years now um being able to sit here and talk to you about like btcd and taproot like you would have told 21 year old marty like he would understand all this weird distributing computing stuff and consensus and difficulty adjustments wow fucking nerd well yeah i like i like this i like it um that it's reality you know like that's the i like to just kind of dig into what is what is real and here's a money that we can build ourselves and

iterate upon ourselves and improve ourselves um and that it's kind of on us to understand and improve bitcoin and build the tools on top of bitcoin which is probably you know going to be probably i'm not you're not going to see me doing a lot of good work in bitcoin core probably but you know i i think i can at least um understand bitcoin well enough to hopefully make it slightly more accessible to a user the lightning wallet user who wants some privacy um that's kind of my medium term goal right now uh so it's i feel kind of pretty lucky to be in that position uh but yeah it's it's it's it's really really real yeah it's not a facade no you can you can check it for yourself you can verify for yourself it's fucking real and it blows my mind that they're

still talking heads out there it's like it's a ponzi it's like all right i actually take that as like awesome i keep thinking that i'm gonna keep building keep plugging in miners keep building this show out um investing in companies in the space and like yeah no testament to you the flutterment uh ui like the and the ux is flawless scan a qr code scan another one scan to send it's just like works just works onboarded in seconds sending sats in less than a minute it's that it's that trust that trust advantage yeah right um yeah the shout out to skyler who who designed that uh like he he built a figma and then i built the um the flutter front end of the app based on that figma and then that plugged into um this rust like the engine inside

of the app that does all the communicating with actual fediment which is built by mostly eric sirion and a bunch of other contributors so obviously there's you know there's a whole there's a whole stack there but i got to be a part of that that first mainnet um fetty fetty mint transactions so that's pretty sweet that really felt really special and it's gonna be historic i i like literally i don't even know why i remember where i was i was like helping my brother who just moved into his house like move boxes around in a this basement like and i was like clear trying to clear off the pool table so i could use the pool table in the basement and i'm hearing you and matt describe federated chamean mints and they have this kind of crazy

a privacy implication but they were invented you know before even bitcoin and but now we can build them on top of bitcoin i was like well that sounds that sounds pretty cool um and then the you know fast forward you know a year ish later and i'm i'm i'm working on that i i always like something i really if you threw a dart at a linkedin profile of of like a of a random front-end dev easy chance finding somebody better than me oh stop that but i'm in the right place where the right people are building really cool stuff and then i get to collaborate with them and so i get the chance to like build things that i'm really proud of and i'm really excited about um that i wouldn't have been able to build by myself um and that you know i didn't have to be the best front

end developer on linkedin i just had to be the front end developer that happened to be around to work on this exciting project that one of my friends was taking on. And look at you, blazing trails. That's right. Something I wanted to talk to you specifically because I know you're a devout Christian. Do you think Bitcoin is a divine intervention?

Well, I think anything good on earth is a gift of God. That's true. We deserve destruction and we basically live in a state of deferred wrath against evil like there is so much evil in the world that has been committed that is being committed and will be committed and god is is holding back wrath on the whole world for the sake of his son because jesus's work and death on our behalf to save some of us from that coming destruction but the destruction is is promised um so anything nice that we get to enjoy um i you know i think of it

kind of as like a slice of heaven it's um it's it's just a little example of what what the a right non-corrupted version of earth would be like is well you of course you'd have if i did some work for you um and i deferred the you know the the like you i i no marty you don't need to do work for me right the second i'll defer my reward you know that in heaven i think that would be tracked somehow um and then later on and and and and and we'd create value i imagine we could create value in heaven by doing work for one another um and so i don't know exactly what ledger we'll be using you know in heaven you could trust everybody so maybe we'll just use like excel spreadsheet like a handshake a dap up yeah yeah however we want to pull it off but so i i

think of it kind of like a slice of heaven in that sense um and it but yeah i don't know if it it's not necessarily like it's like i don't know if this like if this empire deserves to be saved and god decided like hey let's let this empire have a free pass by you know working through satoshi to make a better money that saves the usa despite all its failings like i don't know if if that's what you mean by divine intervention i don't know but as far as i'm not it doesn't have to be u.s centric i mean just like yeah humanity i mean i think you and i would agree that the u.s government and the intelligence apparatus and the military industrial complex is probably evil and doesn't really make people better off at the end of the day and bitcoin has provided us a way

to opt out but not only us there's people living under other shitty governments around the world that have the same opportunity yeah peaceful revolution and you know that's something like you know jesus talks about like um like he in the the he went to a synagogue and he he read off some verse of you know i i don't know exactly from isaiah about you know uh we're supposed to liberate the oppressed we're supposed to feed the poor um you know we're supposed you're basically we're supposed to do good and seek you know we're supposed to to love justice um seek justice and love mercy walk humbly with our god there this is a our role on earth is it is calling from god to do justice help the poor help the oppressed and bitcoin is a it is a as a method of monetary

justice um and it helps uh you know it helps me but also helps people in very dire situations who need to flee across a border or who have you know have some crazy sanctions on them or um or have been unbanked because you know where they park their truck or whatever you know um so i i think it's i think it's highly moral activity and it's in line with god's vision for what his people should be working on on earth i would agree yeah bitcoin just seems like a manifestation a modern day manifestation like jesus going into the temple and chasing out the money changers yeah but then like also like implementing the correct money the moral money yeah i mean one thing along those lines i'd actually maybe um

a phrase that really stood out to me from the bible recently is this idea of turn from your rage there's like this whole chapter of psalm 37 it's basically you see the wicked and they get all this stuff and the seems like the righteous don't get anything right now but but in in fact and there is i think a temptation to be jealous or envious of of people who do wrong and get huge rewards for it and like we see this obviously in the shitcoin ecosystem all the time i'm not envious but i do get angry i forget the right right and so i think anger it says to like turn away from your from your rage and i think anger typically makes us kind of impotent and then the envy make just makes us wicked ultimately in the long run um and so if if we see like either of

those things kind of like cropping up it it's like to me i just have started to see that as like that's my sign when i get off twitter is if i get and i might even you know drop an unfollow in there too um even some of the clown world stuff um is is obviously endlessly interesting and fascinating and frustrating um but if i see it seeping into the point where i'm getting kind of like a rage about it but that doesn't it doesn't it that has like an impotence to it i feel like it's it's it's almost like it's designed to sideline me especially some of the real culture culture war stuff that like the the that i get dragged into that the the boomer cons versus the like whatever liberal flavor of the week is is pissing off the boomer cons like that

really high um highly accessible outrage with very little practical application um i'm i i've just found that it that it really sidelines my ability to do good work so i i like i try to kind of run run away but i i highly recommend psalm 37 because it's written by david who was he was oppressed by an unjust king and who was trying to kill him um and and he also his son rebelled against him when later on david was the rightful king so he had all sorts of injustice happen to him and yet his advice is turn from your rage and i and the big takeaway is is that the wicked prosper right now but they're and this is from another piece of psalms um like psalm 125 there that there's no real like eternity to injustice like injustice is a temporary awful thing that we should fight

against all the time but but there's no eternity to it they get theirs eventually they always get theirs and that's it's certain that's that's a solved problem whether or not the wicked are going to be punished for what they've done is solved by god that is don't worry about it um so i need to decide what i do right now and that might involve resisting the wicked right now um but i i don't have to be frustrated by the wicked right now yeah i need to i need to take this psalm to heart i get i get very frustrated yeah marty jones is a character for a reason it's hard not to though and i guess this is a weak part of my my own personality is i succumb to it pretty easily but i do try to channel it to like highlight look at the wickedness yeah turn this

way it's hard yeah you see the wicked i mean that that's so much wickedness and almost every psalm really has this david was clearly dealing with a lot of wicked in his time it has this pattern it's like i see the wicked and they get so rich everything goes great and they trample on the poor you know and everything seems to go right and he's like but the psalm always kind of recognized well but god is good god is in control and then you know a lot of times you know explaining in detail how god will just fuck their shit up yeah uh no it's yeah it's it's hard to see it all go i mean again like a child of 9-11 child of the iraq war child a great financial crisis child of yeah the great qe boom and the ongoing war in the middle east and now ukraine it's just like

all these people i remember 2008 i think i'm just a little older than you and just you know that idea of how hard it was to get a job like that's kind of what the recession meant to me yeah is is jobs are really scarce my brother got laid off and and and so seeing the potential of that i mean and obviously that's so small compared to you know the financial problems that some people face uh what we went through in 2008 but it's a very tangible fear to me of what another even just another 2008 looks like so i don't really even know what you know potentially sovereign i mean oh we don't want to end it on a doom note but like the sovereign debt crisis if it is blowing up like that's the fucked up part about it i mean it does fuck us over it really fucks over

like our parents and grandparents we're like i know many people in my life who are at the doorstep of retirement have been saving their whole careers if interest like and matt and I discussed this the other week like what you're told as you're approaching retirement

you restructure your portfolio go to the lower risk go into the lower risk which is bonds bonds are getting completely

wrecked so I know many people who want to retire who have been told this is the way you do it they did it that way now they're about to go out into retirement

with a 40% haircut what they thought they had which is pretty fucked and I don't think there's any way to solve i mean yes you can begin inflating it away but then you're in retirement and your money buys you less so you're damned if you do damned i mean this is why i like texas slim so much i'm so glad you brought him to so many people including myself attention is the is the um i was at like

a beef initiative thing here at the commons and someone said something about regulation and it's like here's a thing that the government's doing that makes it hard for us to have good food you know and it's bad and texas kind of has this sidestep of that and it's like yeah that's it's like yeah that's what they're gonna do here's what we're gonna do um i think that's really beautiful so it's like so i see you know this if there's some sort of impending financial doom you know i want to think about what i can be doing specifically to you know i can't protect um retiring seniors and their pension funds like that's that's beyond me but you know i have parents and what can i do to get them potentially closer to me um what can i do myself like food

security things like that um job security you know what what does it take to be yeah in a good part like a resilient part of the industry yeah anyways it just makes me want to like focus on what what is within my grasp what can i work on yeah what can you control it's tax sets by a freezer chest by beef to put in there i mean and this is the lie of money too and and obviously the lie that was told to these you know these potential retirees is that you can secure your future and like that is actually not within your grasp you can do what is prudent to give yourself a better shot at a better future but you can't really secure your future you can't ever with any certainty well especially if you're beholden to lock it down the whims of

governments issuing treasury bonds and printing money but pushing the stock market it's like that does not go on forever we're finding that out right now right so you so yeah you have a system piling on risk to just the inherent risk that any human would face well and that's the scary part about it too is there were many people were able to do that and they think they were able to secure their future but they were just a product of living at a certain point in time where they got out at the right time i feel i feel like i'm like a lucky in that sense product of my specific time just to be rightly positioned to hear about bitcoin when i did to have the flexibility in my life to kind of change careers and become a developer um to be able to get a bitcoin job

to live in a city where i have a bunch of great friends who are like bitcoiners and christians so i i do feel i'm like a product of this time and it's going almost almost too good for me i'm really grateful i am as well no i mean same i think uh but there's a lot of evil out there to fight there is and we're gonna win though god always wins at the end there's no eternity to injustice no maybe we'll end it on that should we end it on that i'd be happy to peace and love freaks Thank you.