TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #419: Fedi Is Connecting Communities With Freedom Technology with Obi Nwosu

Episode Date: May 12, 2023

Marty sits down with Obi Nwosu to talk about the origins of Fedi, an explaination of Fedimints, antifragile freedom technology. Obi on Twitter: https://twitter.com/obi Fedi: https://www.fedi.xyz/ 8:26 - Austin’s a nice place 12:32 - Comparing the beginnings of Coinfloor and Fedi 22:00 - Explaining Fedi 34:19 - Applications made possible by Fedi 40:59 - Fedi ambassadors 46:20 - The freedom made possible by Fedi 53:12 - Fedipools and off-grid mining 57:38 - The antifragile nature of Bitcoin 1:07:36 - Has the mission gotten more urgent? 1:13:53 - Wrapping up Shoutout to our sponsors: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Unchained⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠River⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠CrowdHealth⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bitcoin Talent Co⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TFTC Merch is Available: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shop Now⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join the TFTC Movement: Main ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YT Channel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Clips ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YT Channel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Marty Bent: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠

what's up freaks it's your boy marty here to introduce this rip of tftc sat down with obi from the fetty team what'd you think logan do you have any thoughts very nice voice voice of god there's nothing nothing like a nice british accent the content was great too the voice is great the content was great it's all great it's all great according to logan the shit corner in the corner shit corning in the corner over there uh somebody don't do that the um this episode was recorded before we posted the last episode that you should have listened to already so we don't have boost to read right now that's what i'm trying to get at

if you're supporting the show be a podcasting 2.0 thank you next boost stop calling me a shit coiner logan logan took offense to the boost stop it from one of the episodes if he gets that defensive you know something's wrong um I just got a text from my wife reading it. All good. All good at home, too. Find yourself a good wife, freaks.

Very important. It's good to have somebody supporting you in the background. It's not really in the background. Part of your life. I'm just rambling. Usually your words are flowing like a river. I got to text, had to digest. Like a river.

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that's part of the bull case for bitcoin if you're not paying attention you probably should be yeah austin is not like other cities too where it's not like a walkable city per se unless you're like downtown downtown is is downtown sort of semi-walkable i've been trying to walk around have you gotten on the trail yet the trail i'm not sure around around the river have you walked around the river i've walked along the river a bit i walked my river um i'm actually staying near the river so i can see it yeah and that was really nice and i went up to this this bit where you can see the city a few of the guys took me there yeah we did a little bit of like uh a mini a mini free sort of tour of austin and a peacock a peacock sanctuary yeah you were talking

i haven't been to the peacock see maybe i know austin more than you know the people said it's just this um uh seems well i say it wouldn't say random but there's this place which is open to the public it's completely free um and they've been rearing peacocks it's not that it's sort of in the city and you can walk around and there's just different peacocks in different stages of plume and sometimes in the tree so you have to be careful in the tree and don't want to be right beneath them yeah i'm gonna have to take the boys to that at some point soon it's really simple place it's not too big but you just can wander around there's no just walk straight in there's no there's no requirements for tickets or anything it's pretty cool yeah there's a lot of free

activities here austin's a very active city too which i like very outdoorsy yeah yeah you feel compelled to get out but is it like this weather all year round or is it just um because right now the weather seems perfect but they said like a little bit before it can get quite cold and after it can get really really hot or is it yeah it's just in the last few weeks that started to warm up it was pretty cold this winter and then this time last year was already like 100 degrees so this is and i only have two years to go off of right now and 100 degrees in celsius is that's fahrenheit obviously yeah in celsius what is it it's got to be 30 33. yeah that's um that's pretty still pretty hot yeah yeah i'm pumped you're in town i didn't realize you were in town until

saturday you hit me up i was like oh damn yeah um so i was in uh i was in orlando so last month was asia this month is the us and next month is europe so but um i was in orlando last week and later the second half this week i'm gonna and for a week i'll be in new york and then obviously miami so i thought well this is not too far away from austin and i haven't been in this so you know one of my co-founders literally is here and other people so um are some of our investors are here let me go and check it out but it was very last minute why don't i spend some time here yeah there's a lot going on down here yeah yeah it's a little quiet in the commons today but it's great when we get the whole crew in here justin the mutiny guys everybody's vibing

uncle uh the godfather of austin bit devs justin moon i think you'll be the nicest guy in bitcoin yeah he doesn't come in that that often anymore he's he's focused in his house he's in his environment he's super heads down yeah we're you know we're just we're we're all heads down sometimes we have to like um um because we're so focused on trying to deliver stuff it can get quite stressful but internally generated stress like i i never get spots on my face but i just had this eruption of spots last week and he i think had a a similar thing he had like some rash on his face but like no one's pressuring you just you're you're pressuring yourself because you're so excited about showing stuff and not it but what we're making not being hypothetical but being real

yeah now you guys are working on something extremely important and powerful so i can imagine there's a lot of pressure on the team but that's it's coming now one way or another it's coming very soon yeah which i'm pumped about but that's one thing i want to start up talking about is given your experience in the space starting coin floor having your experience there successfully starting that company and leaving it now starting fetty how does the build out of fetty compared to what you experienced at coin floor wow um it's it's actually very different and i think coin floor i mean just coin floor was this bitcoin exchange and we started in 2013 and we went on to be well at one point we were by far the biggest speaking exchange in the uk um one day we hit 70

percent like market share in the uk for the uk volume um and we built out a team you know very large um serving most of europe um but there were areas where um there were lessons for me so let me put it this way lessons which i would have preferred uh to not have to do or repeat um which is good because um you can then take that on to whatever thing you work on next um so when it came to um feddy um i think it was very clear to me that i wanted to take on all those learnings and and um and apply them to anything else i worked on and so one thing was i i had a number of things i'm truly passionate about um and um sometimes the demands of trying to um make money and so on make you forget what you're truly passionate about and i was i was

determined that would never be an issue again um i only want to work with people who have the same passion and have investors who have the same passion um because my belief is actually if you're really really passionate about it you work with people and who share the same vision and mission you're actually all the things like the financial compensation so on will actually be even more successful anyway because um the best way to go that fits with your passions is going to be the best way for your business as well you'll attract the customers who share the same vision as well so that's i think one of the biggest learnings that here it feels like family and first and business second I'm really really passionate about what I'm doing and everybody

who's working on it's 100% passionate about it and we just it just so happens that a commercial vehicle is the best way to achieve it but if it wasn't if it was a purely open source vehicle then we would have stayed open source we just really this is the best way to continue on with passions yeah no because i remember having many conversations with justin before you guys linked up and he was dead laser focused on all right i want to start a company and i want to do it with people who get it and are killers in their own verticals of their own expertise and it seems like he's found that team with fetty with you eric skyler uh knowing many different members of the founding team it's really been cool to watch from afar we're relatively close actually you

guys come together and there there's i i don't know about me i think i've got a um quite a lot experience but um yeah um when i look at if you just start with my co-founders i don't know i could get emotional about it really but um when i so i bumped into eric at hackers congress and I was in the middle of selling um um coin floor and so this was you know a bitcoin exchange in the UK so there's there's a lot of oversight there we had a subsidiary which was one of the first regulated exchanges in Europe our our price ticker for bitcoin GBP was was listed on the New York Stock Exchange so they used the coin floor price feed um so you know there was a lot of oversight there which is which is the norm but i was always interested in going to something like

hackers congress but as the ceo of an exchange you're never good you just that's just not good optics so now i knew i was selling um coin floor and it was only a few months away from being sold it was pretty much a done deal i thought well i can finally do something i really really wanted to do there's like three things i really want to do i've only done one of them um and there's two more on my list um that i've always wanted to do for over for several years now but one was to go to hackers congress perinelli police um and i thought you know well stone the crows i'm going to go off and do this and i went and and went there just just as a visitor i didn't announce what's going and just went around i had also a very clear view in my mind that we have to

find a viable alternative to people being able people using um exchanges as their mechanism for custody and i was looking for solutions to that i had some ideas um all of those were nowhere near as good as freddie mint as eric polite when i bumped into him by pure accident he politely told me why they wouldn't work and i'm forever grateful but we literally and neither of us smoke nothing wrong with smoking whenever i smoke but you know most of the interesting conversations often happen outside when people are smoking so there was a few people i was talking to someone and he said look i've got to go out for a smoke so i went out with him just to carry on a conversation it was interesting and eric i think as well um talking to someone else and they went

out and so we were there was a group of people just chatting i started chatting with eric just passing the time i talked about some of the ideas of working on he politely told me they wouldn't work and i went okay that makes sense and i asked him what he's working he mentioned fediment and it's like this thing is this is a really interesting idea for what it was presented to solve but actually it's way bigger an idea than than you're initially presenting it it's like you have a boulder on a mountain and there's another mountain every day you have to move the boulder sisyphean like from one mountain to another and you'll be incredibly gifted and technical and you think well maybe i can divide um invent this device like that can a platform i

can put the boulder on and it can go against the laws of gravity and then just float over to the other mountain so that saves my job of moving the boulder across which is a useful problem to solve but then i i come along i goes you've just invented anti-gravity you solved that problem but this is way bigger than this thing you solved like a much bigger problem but it's like oh yeah you're right maybe it is that and um but so i don't know if i would have met him in in by if it wasn't through pure luck but we have completely different backgrounds completely different ways in which we came into bitcoin um completely different circles that we walked around in but philosophically through we we are completely aligned and then um in miami um

um eric meets with uh with justin and again they hit it off etc um i then get they then approach me as well and if you look at us just the difference of skills and backgrounds are just very different different parts of the world um i think they're incredibly gifted in what they do and and what they're capable of doing and our philosophy our philosophies are very very aligned but from completely different backgrounds and what is the chance of the chance of us all meeting is like i don't know sometimes i have to sort of think you know i sometimes just look up and go you know this is sort of ridiculous how does how did this all happen and all the other people we've met as well and all of our backgrounds all of our backgrounds have just sort of come

together on this one project and it all is useful all of that stuff that all those chance encounters were able to utilize in this one project so every day i just feel super grateful and i just want to work as hard as i can to keep it going yeah it's very serendipitous it's it's it's like almost like you you start feeling you know something is happening here that's not yeah some higher power like all right you guys i just i just yeah just i constantly think about it yeah and then it continues to happen that the people that we're having during the organization it's just amazing people and you know who maybe you've made decisions that no i'm happy where i am and all of a sudden okay i've changed my mind because of this it's yeah we we're we're doing something

important i think we're working with incredible people and i for me i'm doing this because i just i love working with the people i'm working with we love the problem that we're trying to solve and we'll work on it until we make it happen yeah and i think this is a good point for anybody but be new to the show new to bitcoin who may not understand the concept of effediment how it fits into bitcoin and the stacks the layers above it uh how the fediment as the open source protocol works and then what you guys are trying to do at feddy okay um that's a good question and it's been something that a few people have been unclear on and we're going to make that clearer but that was also because we're taking the approach of let's build it and um if you talk about it and

and I'll explain it again now, I'm happy to, it's still, the idea is quite big and it's hard for people to sort of get their heads around it because it's a new concept. When they see it in their hand, it will make a lot more sense. So we're focusing really hard to give something that people will have in their hand.

And Feddy, the aim is for it to be in people's hands this month in May. So a version focused on developers, but I'm sure enthusiasts will download it. Just like Lightning, we said it's just for building right now and it'd be reckless to use it, but people went off and did that. I'm sure that will happen, but it's focused for builders.

But let's start with Feddy and then how Feddyment relates to that and Bitcoin and Lightning and so on. Because the narrative before has been Bitcoin and Lightning and working this way, but now it's going to be with us only in a matter of weeks. We can talk about it the other way around. so um the key insight is that right now something something's wrong there's trouble at mill as we

say in northern northern england there's something's wrong in the state of the web and technology you've got big tech and you've got certain large organizations and institutions who um we use to make our lives faster cheaper better easier which they do in the most part but there is a problem and we see it increasingly we see situations where some of them not all but some of them i would say misuse abuse or lose our money and our data in one way or another and the reason why that happens is because the wrong people are in control they can help and assist but they are they are the wrong people in control and so the insight for us is what is needed is a way if you're skilled enough individuals but at scale we need a way for communities for families for

organizations for companies to be able to take charge take control of their own money and their own data and so that we don't make the mistakes that the existing system makes it needs to be done in a way where there is no single point of risk no single point of control so at every level there is no single point of control no single point of risk and so that tool that technology that can do that is what we call it's a new category but we call it a federated os and feddy over time the first version won't be the full realized vision but over time Feddy aims to be the world's first federated OS. Now, if you're using Feddy,

what that means is to understand what that is, you have to understand FeddyMint and that's the power behind Feddy and the federated OS concept. It doesn't have to be Feddy because these are open protocols. Other people can produce this. I'm sure they will in time.

So FeddyMint is this community custody protocol. it's one of the most active actually now projects in the bitcoin ecosystem there's i thought it was 20 but now there's like 50 people who are contributing to fediment um and um it was originally the idea was invented by eric one of you know justin me and eric one of my co-founders um and what it allows you to do is create these community custody we call them federations community custody federations run by trusted members of the community and we call them guardians and on top of on top of custody this community custody you also have a level of privacy you also have a level of scalability and both of those things are made possible

using this protocol called Xiaomi and eCash which is an incredible protocol and you also have extensibility it's it's uh you can add other functionality and there's actually no limits to the functionality you can add and you run it on behalf of a community and so each feddy user or any other federated os user can connect to multiple federations and they have this one overall operating view of the system so they can see just like you have multiple slack groups that you're part of but you in your experience you see multiple you see as one view or you have multiple groups on whatsapp or multiple discord channels etc you can have multiple federations you're part of but from from your fedi you can access and view all of those

and choose independently what money and what data i secure with what federation and each federation serves because they are the servants to the users serves tens or thousands or tens of thousands of of of federated users so when you combine it together this

sort of each federated user connected to multiple federations and each federation connected to multiple serving thousands or more

between tens and tens of thousands of federated users this creates this sort of global decentralized federated OS network

where where hundreds of thousands if not millions of federations run by communities and companies around the world

are serving hundreds of millions if not billions of federal users around the world all powered by bitcoin and all connected to each other seamlessly with lightning with the lightning network so you don't have a disadvantage of having lots of these small um bitcoin scaling layers because we have this incredibly reliable lightning network to settle between them seamlessly and so you then don't have to have one monolithic scaling layer for the entire world where if it goes down as a bug everybody in the world goes down if it's one in a million and it has an issue that is a resilient system and even then it would have for it to have an issue you have to it's resistant to one or more of guardians having an issue so even at the federation level is resistant but also at

a system level as well as resistant because there's not just one there too so it is and it's able to in terms of what can you do with this anything that you can do with a mobile operating system a desktop operating system or a web service that's used for the millions of websites on the internet you can run on a federation or any number of federations each federation can choose which ones they run just like each computer can choose which apps they download to it but without any single point of risk out any single point of control so yeah so the sky's the limit of course you're going to have features like we've seen ideas like um bitcoin backed stable value usd um that won the hackathon right that one that won the hackathon and that was incredible um

it was an anonymous group of people built this feature and the and it was clearly the strongest application so they won the they won the first prize and we've will integrate support for it because it was the winner but it's also an incredibly powerful idea it can represent any capital asset but actually backed with bitcoin using an idea um similar to um the concept that was put forward by taj draja um discrete log contracts for difference um um but um it's that would require opco changes to bitcoin to be implemented but you can implement it on on feddy and it's also it allows you to gain discovery because if multiple federations start using it then that will add credence to the debate

of whether we should add the opcode to support it. Because right now with a lot of discussions, it's is there going to be demand or not? Well, if you see this grassroots demand through federations, then you can say, okay, well, let's add this feature directly to the base protocol because we don't have to guess if there's demand anymore. We know there's demand.

And that's just one. I mean, there's secure password managers. why hold my passwords on last pass where it could potentially then be hacked when instead i hold it within my communities and my community can help me recover if i lose my password so it's not just money it's also data yeah and the password doesn't have access to that information anyway because similar like last pass holds that information on their servers but within the mint it's encrypted and it'll be encrypted and it would require a majority a combination of different guardians to recover or it doesn't have to even be the guardians it could be that the guardians are

holding encrypted but the but you as a user could depending on how someone i'm just brainstorming apps can be developed how you want you as a user could select three of your friends within the mints to be the people who verify but they're not the people who hold it the guardians are holding it so they hold it but it's encrypted so they can't do anything with it without the verification from the friends so you could create a module which is a a federated password manager and also by the way your password could be stored on three or four different federations so if anyone for example i mean anything that you can run on a website or on a mobile phone or on a on a computer you could run on the federation so that's why say it's this federated operating system there's an

operating system with no because even if it's running on your computer if your computer has no backup and it goes off it's it's still a single point of risk and many people should make backups but they don't do that but if you saw in a federation it's automatically being federated and backed up for you so you don't have to think about the process of maintaining backups and recoveries and so on yeah another one of the first apps is encrypted chat that users can use yes again chat so again do i want my chat to be hosted by a third party who may be able to oversee what i'm looking at or not and they may say that it's encrypted and so on but i have to trust their their view on that well again within my community it may make sense for me to take control of our

of the of the conversations related to my community or within my family take control just like in a slack channel i can have the for a company i can have conversations related to my company and there's a different slack channel for a gaming community i'm part of we talk about that but the issue is all those conversations are running on slack servers in one place so you have to trust that slack is not overseeing every single conversation here with federations you don't have to trust that they are running on different systems provably yeah that's pretty mind-blowing when you begin to think about it and that's the other cool thing particularly with eric and justin in the way they've approached us methodically and really took the time

to build it out the right way using Rust and then building in a modular fashion. And Nix Bitcoin on the background as well, which I think we're going to see. It's hard to do that at the beginning, but I'm just blown away by, you know, we're going to see the benefit of doing it the right way in terms of ability to build, provably build reliably

on different sort of bare metal because you've got this such powerful package and delivery management system in nix right yeah in nix for example yeah yeah and so what um what are things that are on your radar i know we just like described like the chat app and um password manager but what are some like the financial applications that you see coming uh in the idea space around feddy and fedements particularly that people aren't aware of obviously you guys had that hackathon the stable um stable pool came out of that a bunch of other cool stuff came out of that but again i think people think of fediments and they think of

instant private transactions within these mints and across these mints as the main use case but it seems like there's yeah i think that that that is something that's possible but just like that's possible using the web you know and that's possible using your computer but it's one of many things that's possible um so other things that we're seeing for example and and i i can guarantee you that once we release this to the builder community which is what which is what we're going to focus on the the the real killer apps that these will be very useful things but the real killer app where people are going to be falling over themselves to set up filaments to install are going to be things that we just can't imagine that's that's the nature if you look at

windows um if you look at dos it was the word processor and the spreadsheet that people invested two thousand dollars which at that time in the 80s was a lot of money it's more like ten thousand dollars to buy because it was they they didn't buy it because of the computer they bought it because they wanted to use a word processor with um the piece with um the mac it was um desktop publishing and graphics design and again the the developers of this didn't envisaged they thought it was going to be a nicer way of doing web processing but actually it was a whole way of being able to construct and design in this visual way became the killer app and it's just and you see it again and again again for for even gaming platforms it was certain games

and i'm buying the game platform for that game so there's always a killer app and it's always some sort of indie developer so on creates it beat saber was oculus oculus more recently so what's to happen is someone's going to make a fairly mint module it could be stability pools because that can represent any capital asset which is a 400 trillion dollar of capital assets any any any capitalists in the world could be represented by that any um currency any stock any derivative any bond any commodity and that's pretty lost that could you know it's quite a lot there um or it could be someone is working on i think a few people are working on things like um simplicity based fairly much so again i can then start um adding but but again that's a meta app in that

it can now represent any simplicity contract and there's a near infinite set of simplicity contracts i can write so so um it won't necessarily be that but it will be some of the simplicity contracts written on that that will be really powerful and i won't be able to imagine all those or um what could be um another thing that's uh um those two are already pretty big as i said the simplicity thing was something that justin eric worked on a hackathon uh justin worked on that i think there's some a couple of teams are working on more polished versions of that right now for example um there are other things that people are working on that i want to wait for them to announce they're working on but uh um but these if you just take those two things

they're just incredibly flexible in terms of what they can do yeah um there will be oh um community there's people looking at um ways in which you can have community run and hosted uh pools of capital So, for example, a community might want to receive money not just for a particular person, but for the purpose of the community to then vote and use in some way to the benefit of the community. And that could be for a company,

it could be for a family, a family fund, whatever. Anytime you want to have this collective pool of capital and then you want to own and then deploy maybe based on some sort of, and then how you deploy it. We want to go on a trip next year. Yeah, and how you deploy it will be based on there could be many variations on that so it could be based on voting and so we vote to use the money this way or it could be based on a hitting a certain target of revenue it could

be triggered um there could be interest in um others providing services for others so for example um you have chat but what about nosta and nosta relay at some point some of these release will charge fees well um but the the the effort to run it might be um complex you could run that as at a community level on behalf of not just the community but anyone in the world and the revenues that it creates go to the to the to this community community fund so all of a sudden communities can provide infrastructure for the decentralized web and and generate revenue for that for the benefit of the community these are some of the things that people are starting to think about but i can guarantee you they're going to think about many more things than we than we we're just going

to make it incredibly easy to set up incredibly easy to build for i mean set up five minutes or less building apps two hours or less you should be able to start building apps for it you know and then just leave it to the um and also the other thing about feddy as well that's missing if you look at the bitcoin stack the sort of grassroots because like it's bitcoin it's lightning i think noster's coming out because not just like a discovery layer it allows you to discover um resources without knowing the other person whatever that may be it might be tweets but it could be offers for for services or products or or anything else so it replaces the discovery elements of google of facebook of amazon if you think about what they are is it's it's a payment

system it's a bit of storage and it's discovery you know and that's that represents much of the web so um nostra provides you a decentralized and ship resistant way of discovery and then um feddy feddy mint allows you to add functionality functional extension it's your scaling layer for functionality and so on um the other thing that we need is the last piece is a way for making people know around the world that this stuff all exists yeah and that's what that's another big part of fedi um which is um over the next two years um we plan and that's where a big part of what we raise we plan to um hire um hundreds of fedai or fedi or fedai masters fedai knights there's a sci-fi like that and fedai ambassadors and i always say to locate educate and inculcate

communities around the world north south east west um starting in the global south because it's just low hanging fruit and so on but we will be hiring globally um and so yeah we but end of 2026 we will only be approaching 500 of these um it's also more cost effective to hire in a global self you can get a lot more people yeah but we will hire everywhere and and they will make myself um and justin and other members of my team like renata look like we're you know on valium and super chilled they're gonna be like local versions super passionate about coins super passionate understanding the system but also passionate about their local area and so if you have the ferry up and you want to understand more what you can do with it or how to set it up or so

on there will be someone local who can meet up with you speak your own language understand your culture and walk you through it so we'll have online resources for education which is great but we will have people on the ground as well and they will be educating people about bitcoin about lightning about nosta about fediment and the entire bitcoin ecosystem it's it's because the crazy thing about fediment and federations is think of it as an operating system imagine operating system without a computer to run on or without a network connection to connect to the rest of the world or without apps the most complex piece of software on your on your computer is your operating system but without the rest of the stuff it can't do anything it's an enabler for the rest

of the stuff and it's the same for a federation you have to have bitcoin nodes to run on so we have to then recommend or you maybe should you start night maybe you should use noddle maybe you should use umbrella maybe you should you should use um raspy blitz or so on you have to have the connection to the rest of the of the of the of the bitcoin network so then we'll say well maybe you should use and and forgive me if i don't say the names but maybe you should voltage ibex mikado maybe you should use zebedee maybe you should so we have to find ways of of we have to advise them that because because the federation doesn't do that and then also you need apps so we'll say well on an off ramp maybe you should use bit refill maybe you should use bit knob maybe you

should use um neutron pay or or so on depending on and the solution will be different depending on the country you're in and so on and then maybe you should use this module maybe if you want to have state if it's important to have stable value in usd maybe you can use a stable coin or maybe you can use stability pools or stable sets or or whatever so we have to um promote all this other stuff for a community to get the value so every time a federation goes into a community all this other stuff goes in automatically as part of it so we win by into helping the entire bitcoin ecosystem win there is no way well so you can't just say use federally mint but have no machine to run it on have no nodes have no have no access to the light network and do nothing with it it's

like saying i've got microsoft windows and no apps and no machine and no internet it's yeah it it it needs the rest of that other stuff because it's just the operator system it's not the actual thing you do it's the thing that allows you to run the other stuff yeah it needs the network effect and the the the apps and everything else yeah the vibrant building and that's the one thing like boots on the ground i think particularly in the west a lot of people discount that but in the areas of the world that you're targeting first global south like boots on the ground is extremely important because people need that yeah i mean we have we have boots on the ground here so here is the the massive advances we have is places like bitcoin commons um and you know we we have this

incredibly vibrant and well educated in the ways of bitcoin group of people so we already have our knights and ambassadors and so on who are well resourced and are very sophisticated in how they can communicate so um you know the things that we're doing here are just amazing so if we added a lot of people here which we could do and we will do it's it's less needed than in other places where the message is not so so clear so if we have this but but the demand is very strong there as well but we will work with people here maybe on a funding or supporting or sponsoring things versus hiring full-time because there's already existing network of people who already have communities that they that know and trust them yeah but one way or another we're going to

tap into these communities and either the resource if the infrastructure is not there hire the infrastructure and if it is there just support and fund it yeah and when you guys are successful in getting into these areas and getting fetty adopted what's your biggest hope for success of like how this, not for FETI particularly, but for the communities that begin leveraging FETI, like how does it help them at the end of the day? So it depends on where they are in the world, but like in the global South,

or if they're living under the yoke of authoritarian regimes and dictatorships, they either have a lack of choice or they cannot trust the choices they have. And so that is a zero to one scenario. um so for example um if you're in um certain countries um and you're um if you receive money from the wrong person it could lead to significant negative consequences for you in terms of your liberty and even your life um if you use the traditional systems um so being able to use

alternative approach like bitcoin is is is a game changer for you now if you can do that using a self-custodial system it's great but sometimes that's a challenge to do for various reasons technical acumen um costs complexity and so on fedi is something where we can have people on the ground or parts of their community who can help them set up potentially run and manage their infrastructure remotely for on their behalf in terms of the in terms of the guardians and and the servers they're running but provide it to a community in a region of the world where it's difficult to get stuff into that region safely on behalf of the community so that's that's and so they therefore now have the ability to receive payment on and off ramp locally etc um then you've

got places in say the global south where they have options but they're incredibly expensive um people talk about mpesa a lot which is as educated people in large parts of east africa on on the idea of digital money so in terms of usage of digital money they're some of the most advanced in the world people pay for transport with digital money they pay for goods and services digital money they receive salaries and digital money already but these are centralized systems run by one organization and they can be quite expensive average fees are two to four percent and they can be as high in extreme it will be extreme cases but as high as 30 40 percent to use mps and mps is like the the the marquee or you know the flag bearer of how it should be done right so now compare that

but what you do with mpsa is functionally can all can be done with bitcoin and lightning but you're not paying two to four percent average all the way up to forty percent you're paying you know basis points and that's and and on consistently um so just in that case that's a significant cost saving and then when don't get me started remittance i mean the remittance costs would then be assigned to average in sort of double digits as as the average and again it it can be incredibly high so just as a cost saving it's massive for that part of the world and then i just think um anybody who um values the ability for um them to for they or their family and friends to be able to be able to have some control over their money and their sensitive

data it's not all data if it's a cat picture or something it may not be that important it depends the cat obviously if you some people really love their cats but um but if it's very sensitive data or very valuable data to you and your community um and it's all your money um you may want an increased level of control and that's important for anybody anywhere in the world where they value um freedom and and liberty yeah and i think of like the human ingenuity this could potentially unlock when people don't have fear that they're being surveilled because that's another important thing to mention the way the blinded signatures work in these chami and e-cash systems uh i think you mentioned the example of people operating within systems and they send a particular

person money that could affect them negatively in the real world and within these mints the federation members the guardians have no idea who's sending what to who especially after you get enough people in them it becomes almost heuristically impossible to try to deduce who's sending to who um and so when you have that fear wiped away i'll be like hey i don't feel like sending money to this person because i think it's gonna come back to haunt me um and then not even sending money but sharing pictures sharing information particular political views whatever it may be um when that self-censorship stops and people become emboldened and begin yeah and i and i think that um as i said there's incredible capabilities that are unlocked by the use of

fediments um and that's that's part of it um and other parts are the incredible ability for scale also the incredible ability to um extend functionality to meet the needs of your community when you combine it all together it's a it's a it's a very powerful proposition so when we were looking at i mean if you're going to try and build this sort of um federated os um i don't think there's any other solution that made sense for us to use other than basing on bitcoin using lightning lightning as the mechanism to connect with the rest of the ecosystem and using fediment as the protocol to act as this base um for any given federation um it is possible of course because it's so flexible um for people to also take take off or add things not only can they

add but they can take off so in theory um if certain for example companies decided that they wanted to not use a feature they could also do that and that's the nature of system being so flexible it wouldn't be a true operating system if you if you couldn't do that however um by default you get that baked tin you don't have to think about it and for for most people's use cases it makes sense to use the system as it is by default yeah yeah that's um it's fascinating the potential this could unlock and then you combine it we were talking yesterday with something like gridless oh yeah i want to talk about like empowering local communities get them an app like fetty and then give them the ability to leverage stranded energy sources

to mine bitcoin as well like you can see little strong economies popping up all over yeah what were you saying about um gridless let's say i mean it's just the ability to monetize that stranded hydro drive down the price and electrify a local community and make it economically viable yeah and you can imagine once they've that's happened the community is generating a or parts of the community are generating a revenue in denominated in bitcoin um there's there's a lots lots of opportunities around that that i want to continue to investigate for example um it it makes sense especially because these are quite decentralized organizations in the fact that there's not one one mining farm there's ultimately hundreds around the around that you

have to have local um local people who you train to be able to service and manage these systems so one you're gaining skills locally um but the natural way to compensate them is in bitcoin because that's your that's the way you're earning revenue anyway um and then now you have these members of the local community who have this source of revenues bitcoin they for some elements of that they would want to convert into local currency um and so and they'd want to be able to directly use these to pay for certain things so what happens is slowly other members of the community will start to accept and utilize and so on and so from that from that seed usage of bitcoin in general spreads out but again um eventually some will be um ready and comfortable

with self-custodying but to get involved quickly and easily um and to deal with issues of backing up my keys and recovering them in the event i've lost and having an easy user experience and also having features which adding functionality which is right or correct for that community all in one place the idea of setting up a federation for that community and people using Feddy as a way to connect to that federation and other other federations that may make sense for different users because they can pick and choose it seems like a very logical step so I'm keen to continue to explore that as well yeah I mean you can see many forgive me for the buzzword synergies coming out of uh it's the worst synergy is a good word but it's been so maligned and so abused that now

it's like it's like in the in the sort of the naughty corner forever you know we have to get it out of the noise corner it does it's a useful word when i'll say it's pretty there's potential synergies that come out because we were talking about fetty pools yesterday too and you think if the mining infrastructure in this part of the world gets to a point where it's significantly robust and you have multiple different operators who have the ability to set up a federation and create a feddy pool um and then maybe their employees are getting paid out bitcoin straight to a federation via feddy or something like that like you can see um an ecosystem developing uh around like the mining community like all right we don't want to point to binance pool anymore

let's create our own fetty pool we have enough hash rate yeah the ability to take control uh and it's uh and this in this case it will be um bitcoin miners and then also you can lower the costs of payouts because you can pay it out over lightning directly yeah so it's just very convenient it'll be lower costs it'll be quicker so it's a win-win yeah we're learning the uh the lesson of lower cost on lightning right now yeah yeah i mean um what's your take on all this fee congestion for me it's all good for every time for bitcoin to win it has to be tested and it has to go through all the different tests um and and then it passes them and while it hasn't gone through a test then it's still in the process of winning it wins as a sort of like a point in time

when it's gone through every test and passed so i see as this think about one of these sort of games where at the end of each level you have like a a big a big boss and you have to beat that to go to the next level and until you're being the big boss you can't go to the next level and until you've beaten the final boss you can't finish the game so so by definition if there are certain things that we are waiting to deal with then we're still playing we're still in the game we haven't finished the game yeah and so i i so then once you realize that you you want to run to the you want to run to the final boss and just like deal with it so high fees and and guess what happens every time it happens we get stronger we get better we get faster so now fees are up and higher so people

certain exchanges are now looking to implement lightning because and if we if that never happened then there would have been we could have been waiting another year or so before they implemented it if we're just waiting on their good graces but now they ever need to it's prioritized and it happens and once they've implemented it then people use it and you mass educate a lot of people against all the fud around lightning goes away because people go away this is actually it's really easy and it's really convenient so why were people saying to me otherwise and then they start to work out who to trust and who not to trust so i'm that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the high fees so bring on the high fees because then it leads to

much much lower fees because people start architecting the right way as opposed to shorthand ways that work in a in a simplified um it's a simplified market yeah no i agree completely but it's been funny to see the last seven days people are like using this high v environment and pointing at lightning like look lightning's done nothing um and it's like yeah i wouldn't i want to go that far but is lightning ready for the main stage do you think uh yeah i think it is people will switch over to lightning it will have issues and then people correct the issues but we've got um organizations who are doing you know huge numbers of transactions Again, I don't like singling out

because everybody's doing incredible stuff, but just I was on a stage with Zebedee a few days ago and they're dealing with transactions for Square Enix, this publicly traded gaming company, $6 billion market cap, which is very, very high transaction volume and they're handling it. And other Lightning service providers

are handling volumes for um significantly sized offerings and organizations so if there is a blip here or a blip there we have the resources and skills to just then that's an opportunity for an entrepreneur to come in and provide the liquidity and the resources for it and then they'll correct it and it just gets stronger yeah but it's each one of these that's the nature of being anti-fragile it's not never people confused being the opposite of fragile is sturdy or tough that's not the opposite of fragile um fragile is when it's attacked it gets weaker and it breaks sturdy is when it's attacked it stays the same anti-fragile is when it's attacked it gets stronger it gets better it gets faster that is the bitcoin community that is lightning and so on so

so if it's not being attacked it doesn't need to do it but as soon as it's attacked it's it's like the incredible hulk the more it's he's attacked there's actually i mean i'm a geek for you're going to see i think you didn't ask me i thought you would well the other two events i wanted to go to other than hackers congress and the other one was um comic con in san diego i've never gone and i'm a super comic book geek and i and i really want to go um it won't be this year again unfortunately because of conflicts but i do want to go at some point before i'm 60 and then the other one is anime expo because i'm just sort of into anime and comics and so on but so comic geekery um incredible hulk by all accounts you know people say who's the strongest superhero and

so on and many people say superman and this any other and you've got the marvel and dc universe but by all by many accounts in the marvel universe which is captain america all sort of stuff um And Incredible Hulk is technically, as written in the comic books, the strongest because there is actually no limits to how strong he is. But as he's attacked, he gets stronger and stronger. And if he's attacked more, he gets even more stronger. So at the beginning, he doesn't seem that strong. But then if you attack him, then he gets stronger. And there was one point where every single good superhero in the Marvel Universe tries to attack Incredible Hulk.

and they couldn't beat him because he just kept getting bigger and bigger and stronger and stronger there is actually no limit to how strong he is but he will always get strong enough to meet the demand and no more and then when this goes away it goes it retracts back which is the essence of an efficient anti-fragile system why why have all these resources consumed when you don't need to when this happens you react and you get stronger you get better you get faster so um bitcoin it's not green it's orange but we are we are the equivalent the digital hulk the digital hulk yeah no but it's i mean we're seeing that's how it's happened historically too you definitely experienced as a coin floor like in 2017 and the fees go out we have the segwit battle

segwit got implemented we've had this lull for a few years now taproot gets implemented ordinals and inscriptions figure out a way to get all this data in and now i wouldn't even call it an attack it's just uh we're exploring a part of yeah attacks the wrong word because i don't want people to feel that i think these things are like it's stuff happens the system is stressed yeah and then it reacts and it responds because that's when it needs to do it yeah and and that and that's that's reminds you of why this is such an incredible platform because it reacts that way yeah and then to the people poo-pooing lightning that's one thing i think particularly in the uh the crypto sphere they really misunderstand with lightning they'll point at network capacity

amount of channels they'll say it's not look at all the wrapped bitcoin on ethereum it's like nowhere near that that's actually like a massive vindication of lightning because you can do so much with so little like the amount of volume you can do within these channels if you set them up properly uh if you set them up properly it works pretty well like we set up our lightning node in 2019 for the company that we use on the site we get a lot of volume because of podcasting 2.0 and just people tipping and running transactions through our node and we've we have like maybe monthly channel management stuff that we need to do but other than that and as i said there are organizations who are now you know setting themselves up or set up to be able to um support

organize support people or communities however they want to so if they want to have it fully self-hosted you can do that if you want it to be hosted by others but managed by but managed by this community you can do it or if you want it to be fully um outsourced um and then where there are sort of fundamental limits um there is work happening a big example of federations are a way of scaling beyond um any limit of lightning as well because effectively it takes one lightning channel one light and and makes it available to you know ten a thousand ten thousand people which has another level again of scaling as well so there is no when you combine all of these elements with bitcoin with lightning with fediment and and with nosta there's i i now think you've

got this complete um obviously with all of those apps and services around it as well but you have all the sort of um fundamental levels needed to to do anything you you can imagine but quicker faster better than any other network in a more decentralized way with no single no single point of risk that's a good point of control so we're ready to go yeah you're distributing the scaling because like within a fediment you can transact back and forth with other members that stays encapsulated in that mint and then if you need to interact with bitcoin or another federation you just use lightning network and it shoots over and yeah it's uh we're but as a bitcoin community we're ready to go there's no there's no intrinsic limits um in terms of what we did

they never were but but the elements of the architecture are now becoming clearer we just need to uh keep focusing on our game you know it's like you know and and as time goes by as these stresses happen it will become clearer and clearer why it's the right approach and And you just have to keep focusing on your game. Yeah. Do you feel any more sense of urgency now compared to in the past where CoinFleur, do you think the mission's only going to work?

I mean, I've had the same date in my mind since I, well, since 2019, but I was public about it in 2020. So I made a tweet and I made it my pinned tweet since 2020. and I've never I changed it at the end of last year to a retweet of the tweet but um and it basically stated that I thought 2023 is the year um well first of all 2018 to 2023 was the year bitcoin is uh is the year's bitcoin is attacked and 2023 is the year bitcoin wins and I said you can only win when you're attacked and you you you survive the attack you know that's just like you can only win when when the you have that final challenge so um i had a strong sense of

energy over the last few years since that tweet in 2020 um to look for a solution for the missing pieces because i thought lightning was a solution for um for payments um but what was the solution for discovery what was the solution for extending a functional extensibility that also was decentralized and so on and it didn't require a single monolithic solution but it was highly decentralized um and then um in 2021 i bumped into eric and a short while later um we all eric bumped into justin and then we all connected um and it became clear that this was a another key element in terms of the extensibility and then last year as well we saw although it'd been in the background being worked on the same for for 30 for 30 minutes being worked on for three years

but it's just in the background getting to a level of technical maturity same for Nosta and last year again the end of last year Nosta hit that inflection point and now I'm there's still a lot of work from a lot of different people to do but I feel like you've got the people with the right mindset we've got all the tools we can do anything that you see on other platforms here better faster in a more decentralized way in a more um censorship resistant way um so we just have to get on and do it so i feel i feel i don't want to take it for granted but i feel a lot more confident now because i can see all the different elements and there's no they're all so So we have a functionally complete offering, and we've got resources in terms of funding

as well. You just saw a recent funding for Nosta from OpenSats as well. We've got significant funding for Lightning-related projects. We have funding for Ferium End, if I have my will, there'll be significantly more. And so, you're going to see the fruits of all of this on Nosta, on Lightning, on FeddyMint as for over the coming months and I'm really excited to see tons of entrepreneurs coming out building on all these platforms and then, and that's the way you know for sure, when people can just see it working, it instantly makes sense.

When you try to talk about it, you know, it doesn't, so I'm asked to talk about it of course because we've just raised etc but i i would very much prefer to just like um just show people stuff and get them to play around with it and breaking in and and then it'll be broken and we fix it and so on but um the quicker people find holes and issues the quicker we fix them and then you have a complete solution for people yeah the tools are most keen about yeah the tools are all there it was all there let's just get on and build now build build build build that's that's that's um what excites me the most over the coming weeks and months yeah i mean when you see it when you see how quickly the ecosystem around master has been built yeah it's pretty fascinating

obviously it started with the twitter clients now we have like medium-like clients you can do music clients yeah discovery is that all these sites are discovered they they the thing that makes them useful the the ones that it's replacing is there's some mechanism to discover people that you don't know but you have some sort of shared need or interest and nosta that's what that's what's powerful about it provides you that yeah now you've got that and then you want to be able to add functionality okay you know the filaments and you want to be able to then pay for it at a at a low cost, high speed, and that's Lightning, then that is every single app in existence

is, can now be replicated with those elements. It's everything. It's just, and when you think about like opening up, like the ability for people to build on Fediments too. Yep. And like looking at what just happened on Nostra, like if that's replicated there, like this could happen rather quickly.

It will happen. That's why people think, well, 2033, that seems like a lot to happen. Well, no. And also look at what's happened with AI. It's in a matter of the level of development on open source AI protocols now. Some of the latest models are supposed to be 97% as good as GPT-4. Yeah. In two months of it being released.

And they're open source and they can run on your home computer. So it's like, we're in this accelerating loop. when you have these tools that allow you to innovate so quickly yeah just give people the tools and step back and just you know watch in awe you know what what's the power of of the community can do yeah and people are more receptive to than ever i believe to finding and using these tools that's that's that's the belief yeah yeah i could sit here for like three more hours of time yeah i know you've got to go though unfortunately yep yep i do but uh it's it was good it was good coming and talking it's like um i've seen these these interviews happen from

the other side of the screen so it's it's super surreal even being in austin it's like i remember the first time i went to new york and i and i saw like the potholes and the smoke coming from it and i felt like the way you've been there because i've seen it in every single movie ever growing up and it's the same here it's like you know i feel i feel like i've been here before this weird deja vu but um well it's so much better in person oh yeah no it's it's it's it's it's much better in person but uh but it's still it's just so weird that you can come somewhere and not see someone or and then you start talking like it was like yesterday when you actually haven't actually met up in person until that moment well that's one of the most beautiful things about

bitcoin is everybody who's in it working on it we have this like shared belief as like a base as soon as we meet it's like already all right i know you're a good person at heart because you're in this trench with me then just makes everything easier after that it's it's it's it's a great community yeah well keep crushing it man thank you very much thank you for your support as well you know through 1031 um again i always say that you guys were one of the first cheerleaders before we were even a uh we were even a commercial company it was just a open source idea and i remember you were you're walking walking walking on the trail they were walking was that on the trail yeah on the trail when you call it like like like we don't you we didn't know

that was when it was just purely an open source project and we hadn't even thought about um making it a commercial entity but you're saying it doesn't matter we'll we'll still sort of just donate money to to fediment um and just just as a gift and just keep working on it keep keep you said exactly the same effectively the same thing keep crushing it keep working on it and i'm sure something will come from it so that was really important for us to make us sort of aware we're in a bubble and make people aware that there are people outside who you know just really believe in what we're doing yeah so that was really really valuable to get to where we got now and really appreciate that well no need to thank me i would all thanks because you eric justin everybody else

working on feddy and then feddy meant the open source protocol because i remember when eric dropped the mailing list email in like july of last year and i was like holy crap this is this is going to be massive and then fast forward to it wasn't july last year july 2021 um then fast forward yeah it's uh fast forward to uh bitcoin 2022 and then you're on stage with him you did your presentation you guys had that panel and then then the panel afterwards which was aaron and where them was um was moderating and it was eric and casey rodimo actually yeah and then i remember afterwards also casey uh was mentioning he's working on some idea to do with like tracking every single satoshi and like we were like oh okay interesting i think you thought it

was like this sort of art project you know you know so now it's uh now we've got a lot of fees on the network which is yeah yeah it's all interesting i think i think the most interesting stuff happening it's just it's all Bitcoin stuff it's just which is

which is fun yeah it's a lot of fun okay we're gonna win always alright Obi

thank you thank you safe travels to New York tomorrow matey thank you very much thank you that's all we got today freaks peace and love

tiki