TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #466: Bitcoin on the Geopolitical Chessboard with Kane McGukin

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

Marty sits down with Kane McGukin to discuss the changing geopolitical landscape. Kane on Twitter: https://twitter.com/kanemcgukin 0:00 - Intro 5:29 - Kane’s background 9:26 - China’s geopolitical standing 28:01 - Hyperconnected world changes things 33:22 - Transitional state 38:50 - Messianic money 42:00 - Weaponized dollar 48:56 - What should America do? 54:31 - Teaching values and skills 1:05:58 - Propaganda and tinfoil 1:11:01 - Optimism 1:17:50 - Wrapping up Shoutout to our sponsors: River https://river.com/tftc Unchained https://unchained.com/concierge/ CrowdHealth https://www.joincrowdhealth.com/tftc Bitcoin Talent Co https://www.bitcointalent.co/ TFTC Merch is Available Shop Now: https://merch.tftc.io Join the TFTC Movement: Main YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/c/TFTC21/videos Clips YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUQcW3jxfQfEUS8kqR5pJtQ Website https://tftc.io/ Twitter https://twitter.com/tftc21 Instagram https://www.instagram.com/tftc.io/ Follow Marty Bent: Twitter https://twitter.com/martybent Newsletter https://tftc.io/martys-bent/ Podcast https://tftc.io/podcasts/

so freaks it's your boy marty bent here to introduce this rip of tftc i sat down with kane mcgookin to talk about the global world order the geopolitical chess match that is playing out and a bunch of other things talked about the last samurai too movie i haven't seen yet need to watch it on the list we'll watch it at some point this was brought to you by our good friends at river river is the easiest place to stack sats most secure place to stack sats river is a team of bitcoiners who have built their company themselves they don't have any third parties that they depend on like prime trust or fortress they built all their infrastructure their wallets their cold

storage if you buy bitcoin on river it's backed one-to-one 100 in multi-sig cold storage you can dca easily on river set it and forget it if you do that you're not going to pay any fees they have the ability for you to get peace of mind in less than five minutes by setting your beneficiaries for free in the river platform as well so if you have people that you want to pass bitcoin onto bitcoin held on river onto you can easily set your beneficiaries in river's platform go stack sats river.com slash tftc

river.com slash tftc this rip was also brought to you by a good friend down the hall unchained bitcoin price is pumping as you can see on the block clock behind me $43,703 many of you out there may have IRA

accounts filled with a bunch of fiat assets bitcoin is the best money that the world has ever seen. You want to get exposure to it. Maybe you have an IRA that you'd like to get Bitcoin exposure into. Unchained has a Bitcoin IRA product. If you want to roll some of your current IRA or your whole IRA into Bitcoin using Unchained, they make it very easy and you can do it without taking a tax hit. Most importantly, with Unchained's Bitcoin ira you can hold your own keys it's two or three multi-sig setup unchained holds a key then you

hold two keys so you can hold bitcoin in your ira and hold your own keys it's a beautiful thing go hit up their consultation team their concierge team to learn more about this product what you need to do to transition your ira from the fiat world to the bitcoin world they'll get you set up go to unchained.com slash consultation set up a consultation today and please tell them the tftc sent you. This was also brought to you by our friends at CrowdHealth. CrowdHealth's blowing up right now. Me and my family use CrowdHealth as an alternative to health insurance. Health insurance is notoriously opaque, expensive, and impersonal. CrowdHealth is looking to fix that. It's not health insurance. It's crowdfunded healthcare. You pay a monthly fee. If you ever

have a health event, you go to the doctor and you get your bill. You bring it back to CrowdHealth. they negotiate the price lower, you pay the first $500 and the rest gets crowdfunded by the rest of the crowd health community. 100% of bills have been funded to date. It's an incredible model. If you're a freelancer out there, if you're recently unemployed, unfortunately, and you're looking for a cheap alternative to Cobra, or if you're just a healthy individual who doesn't want to pay exorbitant health insurance costs because you don't go to the doctors that much crowd health is a much cheaper alternative so go to joincrowdhealth.com slash tftc sign up today and you'll get 99 for the first six months this one was also brought

to you by good friends of bitcoin talent co bitcoin talent co is a recruiting firm built by bitcoiners for bitcoiners if you're a company in the space looking to hire as the price goes higher pun good pun there if you're looking to hire as the price is going higher go hit up bitcoin talent co uh they understand bitcoin at the base layer they understand multisig they understand mining they understand lightning they're going to help you find the best talent that is out there maybe it's living in the tech industry the banking industry the design industry they're going to go find it for you and get you the best talent to help you build out your company which is helping all of us get to a bitcoin standard so go to bitcointalent.co tell them the tftc sent you

they also have a flex product maybe you don't need a full-time employee you don't want to take on all those expenses the flex products allows you to tap into a roster of individuals who can do contract work three months six months you need an engineering sprint a design sprint growth marketing sprint their flex network is there for you so go to bitcointalent.co tell them the tftc sent you and enjoy this episode with kane you've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free when you talk about a fed just gone nuts all all the central banks going nuts so it's all acting like safe haven i believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to

devalue their currency bitcoin wins in the world of fiat currencies bitcoin is the victor i mean that's part of the bull case for bitcoin if you're not paying attention you probably should be probably should be logan just gave me the thumb up cool cool all right it's funny we say we say thumbs up but it's usually just one thumb up yeah you're right well it's like baseball you know foul ball heads up and everybody looks up yeah okay welcome to the show we've been dming on twitter for years now i'm excited that we finally got this together yeah marty i appreciate you having me on uh i know dms are always good but uh sometimes i'm pretty good at uh forgetting about them i come back to them so thanks for having me on well thank you for coming on what

incited this was i wrote a newsletter november 20th so three weeks ago now geopolitical chess board reshuffling talking about um essentially what's going on in the geopolitical landscape with countries like Saudi Arabia and China beginning to come closer together, the U.S. seems to be shooting itself in the foot from the geopolitical posturing. Many people are, for lack of a better term, getting really pissed off with the United States,

particularly its foreign policy, and this will have an effect on the global macroeconomic landscape, especially as it pertains to the U.S. dollar, its reserve currency status, and the U.S. hegemony, which it has had for for many many decades now so you were telling me right before we hit record you've been diving into this subject more broadly for almost 20 years now 16 years yeah i think yeah if i take it back uh really even before financial markets so i was a big baseball nut always read financial history as a kid i mean not financial history but baseball history as a kid

um 20s 30s mostly yankee stuff um and then i think like mid 90s started coming across kind of steroids in baseball and diving down that rabbit hole and everybody's like it doesn't exist and you know then 2010 it was obvious but nobody cared so i was an adult after college did a couple things kind of in the financial realm real estate that sort of stuff but got over I always enjoyed trading in the markets and started working in just traditional wealth management, nothing special. But went down that similar rabbit hole with the financial system, how things work, how markets work, how we were trading different assets across different desks and that sort

of thing. And I came in the business in kind of like, I don't know, 05, 06. So right in front of just the monsoon of 2008. And came in at Bear Stearns. Again, it was a local office, wasn't in New York. And we were doing trading and whatnot. And so just seeing it firsthand and not having any idea what's going on. And so I took that same approach, go back to the foundation, figure out how this stuff works. What is it? And through 2007, 8, 9, 10, we had some hedge fund clients, had some big institutional clients, insurance companies, those kind of things. And I started reading all the emails from just the bailouts and particularly the Lehman, the Lehman kind of issues and the Dick Fould emails. And then that just kind of rabbit hole, just like with steroids and all this other stuff that I didn't understand and credit default swaps and derivatives and gold and all that kind of stuff. And so that sort of led to the tweets and whatnot that we're talking about and going on with China and the geopolitical wars and the currency wars and all the hacking.

so i'll kind of pause right there um let you jump back in and see you know we'll kind of get that rolling yeah and i think china's always perplexed me i said this i think it was on the spaces last week we were doing for the bitcoin times energy edition somebody's asking me about the chinese real estate market and whether or not it was imploding i said it seems like it is but i don't know you hear news out of china or i do um and i never know what to believe i think the great chinese firewall is very successful um at sort of making it so it's not obvious what's going on to the outside world and it seems like you're honing in and have done a lot of research on china's which i guess let's focus on china its place in the world what it's trying to do

what its economic situation is in reality and how that will affect the geopolitical landscape moving forward. Yeah, I think a big picture, right? Just like you said, if you listen to Jim Chanos, who was a great hedge fund manager, 80s, 90s, 2000s,

he's been short China since as long as I can remember. So if you were an investor and you kind of took his advice, you'd be out of money at this point, right? And China still exists. so um short sellers are great uh they're great for the markets i agree with them i like them i kind of believe in that tendency but you know you can be right and wrong at the same time

and so if you couple that with i think ray dalio's works kind of the most important and it's really what got me back into just this general interest i mean one thing macro went dead kind of let's just called the 2000 teens um now macro is back in vogue right it's the thing it's it's bitcoin it's gold it's it's stocks it's china it's us it's geopolitics so it kind of brought it back but ray dalio's work really is the foundation of that because he doesn't say it explicitly but when you read his stuff he basically built most of the u.s financial markets and then china kind of called him over there to build their markets and i think at one point in some text he says effectively they asked him to kind of run you know one of the big committees or organizations

that would kind of oversee the financial markets and he turned it down now maybe a little bit incorrect there but i read something around that um in some of his words um so he kind of built their market so if there's one guy that knows how all this stuff works and has relationships around the world is him and so you kind of have to trust that and and kind of lean into that and so um to take it one step forward just big picture without jumping down the rabbit hole you know his work says civilizations last on average about 240 years that's where we are reserve currencies last 70 years 100 years give or take that's where the dollar is um and so then if you look at that cycle and technology and how that plays in, we're in the realm of all that. And so education and

technology in the U.S. is kind of going like this. Yes, everybody comes to the U.S. to invest in technology and that sort of, but Europe's ahead of the curve. China's ahead of the curve. Trump's administration, I think it was like 2017 or 16, they did a deep dive into the financial system and what we need to do to digitize it. Well, China has been five years ahead. Europe is three or five ahead and we're just get getting started and that's where all like the fed now and all that kind of stuff's coming from um so you look at it you say well why are we trying to want to do this well they've been the sweatshop to the world for 30 40 years and they're kind of at a point like hey we're big enough we have enough cloud people we have enough partners like we don't you know we

want to sit at the table and the g7 used to be the g5 we want to be a part of this decision making process for the global financial system and you know europe us kind of japan other big players are like nah it's all right you just keep going making the stuff let you have a little bone but like we don't need you in this kind of classic just you know buddy buddy system um and so that kind of gets us where we are today and and when you look at kind of there is no such thing as a dollar it's just a basket right it's the greatest financial network there is because we can use anywhere but it's a it's a component of other currencies so if dollars going up those currencies are going down if dollars going down those currencies are going up and so then you kind of

step in to the 70s and that's when the financial system was really kind of breaking down off the back of Bretton Woods and they created this what was supposed to be a digital token the SDRs special drawing rights and that was again a basket of currencies for central banks to trade back and forth ious with the dollar was a central component and then a few other people and guess who finally got a seat at the table china and so when you think about it that way and you look at it that way that's exactly how in my opinion and you know people can debate it i could be wrong uh the U.S. took power from Britain in kind of the late 1800s early 1900s so you kind of have a confluence of a lot of different things coming together where it's just like what we've

seen before and then building on that line of thinking if you fast forward from the 70s obviously Triffin's dilemma played out and China became the sweatshop of the world as he described it and we in fairness we were in the early 1900s 20s and 30s yeah yeah but the industrial revolution right many stories of child labor here in the united states and so is that repeat itself and so you i guess you have that 50-year transition where you hollow out your industrial base move it somewhere else flood the world with dollars but then that industrial base builds up in china gives them a lot of power to then try to wield which seems like they're trying to do right now correct correct yeah and and so to me it's interesting it's also scary

because they have a different you know outlook on life than than kind of we do here there's different political systems there's different value systems um in some ways their value systems are better right the eastern medicine eastern healing eastern like hey let's value our time on earth and and let's you know last samurai it's all about honing your craft and then in america is like dude how do we just do this quick and easy and make a lot of money right and so spiritually kind of honing your craft is what we're supposed to be doing rather than just trying to get rich So there's just butting heads. Yeah.

So where do you think it stands right now? Like I mentioned, the newsletter that you responded to, I believe I mentioned in that the Saudi Arabia, I believe, head of foreign affairs came out with a comment in regards to Israel and Palestine and said, hey, we want peace in that area. We're going to try and broker it. And our first stop is going to be China, which is a big signal.

It's not the U.S. to go to the police officer of the world, which the U.S. has been for many decades. So that's a signal. And then in that same week, shortly after that, I think that announcement happened on a Friday. And then next Monday it was announced that Saudi Arabia and China had opened up a currency swap deal with each other, relatively small, $7 billion over the course of the next two years.

but it is a step in a particular direction um away from u.s dominance so so what do you think is happening you think china saudi arabia russia others are recognizing how overextended the u.s is and are making some tactical moves to yeah i i agree with that so that's why i responded from from time to time over the years i'll respond just lightly on some things that you hit on but I think that's important because on the outside, right, if you read the Wall Street Journal, they kind of tell you what happened after the fact. But like early days, if you read the FT, they kind of give you the breadcrumbs of things that are happening that end up being issues six months, 12 months down the road. So the news is telling us this after the fact, exactly what you said. But the importance is that groundwork and the foundations for that to happen started in around 2013 with China's Belt and Roads initiatives.

So this goes back to where I opened with. So back then, and probably before then, but it became in the papers, very big news, open news. People are just like, oh, look at that. But they were laying the foundation. So they're going around the world to Canada and getting access to oil sands and oil and energy. And they were going to Africa and getting access to all these rare earth materials for technology and lasers and things like that. And they were going into Iran and Iraq and all the different oil countries and setting up these deals. And so first thing you had to do was set up that foundation like, hey, Marty, you know, I think you do a great job.

is there some way we can work together right and get this resource and when you look at it that way and you kind of understand what the U.S. did in the 1920s and 30s was the same thing as we went around the world while there was World War I building partnerships and who do we build partnerships with we built partnerships with Hitler and Mussolini and all these other guys that were bad people but we had to have a way to build a relationship to create financial connections And so there's this great, I think I shared it with you, but this image, I don't know, I found it on the Internet somewhere in 2019 or 2020. It kind of describes how the U.S. took power. And from 1919 to 24, they set up this massive global American financial investment.

So if you look, so we had to create this dollar network. but the world is using pound and and other currencies but primarily pound and britain runs things and so then you get everybody kind of using a little bit of your money here and there these small seven billion dollar transactions right currency swaps and that you didn't have swaps then it was all cold but uh there were various types of so you've got that kind of hey let's just get started and see if this works and then from 1924 to 29 you establish and this says establish control over the financial system of germany and that's where we're like funding hitler and mussolini with the rockefellers and the carnegies and all this is text like you can

go back and read in different things um it's kind of to make it simple you could go to back and watch uh alex gladstein's uh bitcoin conference talk right a lot of that is baked in there so why did we you know set up the red cross it wasn't to aid the world and help them out with medical issues and disaster it was to create a way to get dollars into other parts of the world that didn't have access and and create a debt system so then they're burdened to you right it's a way to create that network and and to kind of bake that into bitcoin like bitcoin's done that with the bitcoin brand and created all these different places where bitcoin slowly being a adopted in areas that have financial issues. And so from 29 to 33, the image, you know,

it says, then you provoke and unleash a deep financial and economic crisis. Well, that's where in 2009, you know, the world's kind of blown up, debt's blown up. And China's just kind of like, you know, they've got their issues as well, but they're kind of like, hey, we have all these treasuries, we could nuke you, but then it will nuke everybody else if we sell them so that's where you kind of get into this in my opinion i call it the second greatest trojan horse in history where you know we give china dollars for basketballs and then they say okay well like these are cool we'll use them but we'll just buy your treasuries and get this nice rate and do that for 20 years and then the world blows up in 2009 and we all of a sudden

say hey I don't know if we can pay you for 30 years at this rate because like this is an issue would you swap your 30 years for 10 years and China's like sweet because I don't want exposure to you for another 30 years and so they swap 30s for 10s and they take that cash and start buying our land and and so you've kind of got exactly what we did in the late uh 20s and 30s I think it was and then the last step let me get this picture back up because i always have trouble remembering it if you want to put that picture you want to dm it to me on twitter or put it in the if you can put it in the comments here we can pull it up on screen as well all right hang on let me do that so you can edit this out and i don't remember where i found this picture i've

posted a number of times over the last couple of years there was a guy on the on twitter that went back and found a website it wasn't the website that i got it from but and sent it to me all right so i just dm that to you so the last step i'll get that back up then i'll come back to your screen from 1933 to 1939 you've got financial cooperation with nazi government and support for its expansion for foreign policy so the way if you look through historical text and government documents and things that all kinds of stuff so we set up financial system we get everybody indebted and then we didn't win world war ii from guns we won it by cutting off their financial access

and so let's fast forward to today china's kind of done most of these steps and in the worst case scenario like i you know i don't want things to crumble nobody wants kind anarchy. But if our civilization is towards the end and the reserve currency is toward the end and China has set up all these financial connections around the world to get the resources needed to build and to grow, they kind of fast forward once there's a monetary system that can handle a global currency. So I'll stop there and you can kind of interject, ask some questions, and then we can kind of get to a little bit of a point around what I think is important around Bretton Woods and Bitcoin

and other, just the crypto ecosystem. Yeah. Yeah, they're setting up this infrastructure in anticipation for a vacuum of power. And then the infrastructure will be able to suck that power in their direction. Another thing I mentioned in that newsletter that incited this conversation,

I forget exactly which country it was. I forget if it was in Africa or Latin America, but they're going to issue loans to countries that don't have great dollar liquidity. They're going to issue them dollar loans, but they're asking to be paid back in yuan on the back end, which is a roundabout way to drive yuan demand. So what is that, not to jump in, just because that's a critical point, very critical.

So to me that sounds like, hey, we're the Red Cross, here's some disaster relief. Yeah. You need dollars. You need to go buy some stuff internationally here. Pay me back in Renminbi or Yuan. Yeah. Right.

So that's one thing. And I guess before we jump into like where this could go, again, China's in my mind, extremely hard to read. Like you can see a scenario where they're doing all this, but domestically things are terrible and they can shoot themselves in the foot. like if you look at the going back to the real estate crisis in china it seems like it's materializing just like from first principles seeing the videos of these ghost cities over the last five ten years that have been erected uh that they're ghost cities they build them and

nobody lives in them and have all this exposure to the real estate market that seems extremely fragile like do you envision a scenario where china's trying to do all this but they just went too hard into bunk economic policies domestically that it prevents you from it could totally it could totally be that um i'm a little so i don't follow it as deeply anymore i'm a little bit perplexed on that point because on the one hand you had a bunch of empty stuff what are you gonna do with it now in world war ii we kind of had that same thing we've got all these goods that nobody's gonna buy so we call those soldiers home like what do we do with this And we built a middle class. And so in China, they've got so many people, you know, as most of the population is over there, right? Between China and India, 8 billion people and most of us over there. So you got all these, in one way, it's smart, right? In the US, we kind of do it dumb. You need a four lane highway. What do we do? We build a two lane road.

let it cause traffic jams or it takes an hour to go anywhere. And then we come back and spend three years making that two lane road, a three lane road that gets, you know, filled up again and we got traffic jam. So now we'll spend two years making a four lane road. Well, China went ahead and was like, well, we have however many billions of people in the hills of China that are making two dollars a day we're going to build a 12 lane highway that has one car on it and an empty city and eventually those people will come into the city because that's where commerce happens now does that play out possibly i i don't know that's that's where kind of like for me to try to figure it out there's not a way to kind of make a living off of it so i just sort

of stopped well that begs another question too i know we're using historical parallels here but does the current situation, as it stands today in 2023, it feels like the world's more hyper-connected than it's ever been. Does that variable really prevent history from rhyming in the way that it did in the past? So that's where my answer there is, I think that's what's important about money, and that's what's important about Bitcoin,

and that's what is important about understanding the Ray Dalio, big debt crisis and the changing world order so the simplistic way that I think about it and I kind of say to people and I don't know if people understand or not or if it even makes sense to anybody but me but like money changes when the lifestyles and the speed of which people need access to money changes so if you look at money gold is the only money ever to last throughout man time the only one every failing civilization has had some form of a faster money that broke and got levered and re-hypothecated and and whatever and then they default back to gold and it starts over

and so when you look at again the early 1900s 1930s kind of happened because gold wasn't fast enough anymore to meet the needs of the roaring 20s and and people the industrialization like how fast people were moving around so i wrote a article on that for bitcoin magazine maybe a year ago and um kind of talking about that and so then we put these dollars on top of gold and that worked until the 50s and then you know digital technology came in and we're starting to do some things digitally and and then dollars couldn't move around fast enough so we created this thing called the credit card network which was tapped in to the dollars which were attached tapped into the gold and then in the 60s we got the internet and we're starting to get some information flowing

back and forth over the internet and so then by the 70s the credit card network and the dollars and the gold didn't work anymore and so that's where we created in the 50s the sdr and kind of this digital thing and ach and fedwire ach fedwire all those things are just protocols So if we think of their text-based protocols. So if you think about what we're seeing now is like, wait, we have this digital network, Bitcoin, that solves the problem that major countries, Japan, US, Europe, were trying to solve in the 70s, that will do all that. And we also have these things called cell phones. So I don't have to fly all around the world to have these meetings that we can't do anything about until three days later. We can get on Zoom.

You and I can have this conversation. So you bake all that in. And so the speed with which people are moving around, we have global people like you and I can go on a trip to China tomorrow. We have global commerce corporations. corporations they might be u.s companies but the headquarter in ireland because it's tax haven microsoft all those guys um or we have a bunch of chinese people that have bought and chinese individuals and corporations that have bought up u.s corporations and land right and so but our money doesn't work that way and then most of our lives we spend on netflix and

youtube and facebook and zoom and other things like this podcast but our money doesn't attach in but we have that 402 protocol that everybody gets all yipped up about right and so that's how if you have the tcp ip layer it's just information that allow voice and video and all that stuff and now we have this bitcoin layer that's protocol on top of these other two protocols but this one actually carries text and value and so now you can use those parts of the internet like before you couldn't use VoIP, VoIP and video and all that to better speed up transactions. Now, I'm not talking about it and the transaction per second with credit cards and kind of like the unsound parts of it. But people in business are moving at speeds which our money can't.

But now we have these tools to make our money and create a level of soundness, right? When civilizations change, that soundness, we have to come back to a soundness and everything has to get redistributed. And to me, I think that's what we're seeing. And if you look at the SDR basket, I posted a video, not a video, but it was something about like the history of the dollar. And you could just see it moving a couple of days ago. And it was a visualization. And you can see the currency war playing out for the last hundred years. And in the last 15 or so, you see China bringing back their seat at the table

because they're now in that through the SDR. So does that kind of answer your question? Yeah. Well, I think we can dive even further down because that's one of my theses. I put a probability on it, but I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. but like that what i've been saying is like yeah the dollar it seems obvious look at the federal debt look at the unfunded liabilities that's a math equation that cannot be solved we're not going to fix the dollar people are starting to recognize that we weaponized treasuries two years

ago or last year and when we froze russians uh the russians treasury assets and people are looking for alternative you have saudi arabia china russia india others buddying up create their own sdr their own basket of currencies whatever it is so i could see a situation which dollar dominance declines and they try to do their basket but it is fraught with the same problems that led to the demise of the dollar and every fiat currency before it up to this point in time and again going back to what we just discussed which is this hyper connectivity like i don't know maybe i'm naive to think that hyper connectivity would allow information to disperse where if the bricks countries tried to do that people would be like why are you doing this we just did this with every fiat currency

before like how does this not end in the same way uh like why don't we just use something like bitcoin but i could see a period where they do that they're somewhat successful for a period of time it implodes maybe it's not 80 years maybe it's 10 years even and then people are like oh no bitcoin's the obvious answer to this and that that's the perplexing situation that we're in because if all these countries were just to swallow their pride and recognize that bitcoin is a superior technology to do all these things and just to adopt it as quickly as possible they could solve a lot of the problems they're trying to solve much quicker yeah i agree with that like that's kind of the dog chasing its tail you know but if you look at again to take it one step back

to a little bit of a spiritual thing if you read the whole bible so when the world got messed up in 2020 i grew up christian believer all that stuff but i never actually read the whole thing so in 2020 i was like well i only know one book that is messed up enough and has enough messed up stories that kind of might explain everything and so when you read it cover to cover, you see everything we're seeing now, but thousands of years ago. And when you kind of go back and let's just say you were a history buff, which I never even liked history until I got into financial markets. And by trade, I'm a technician, I'm a chartist, magic lines, and people are like, oh, it doesn't work. Well, it doesn't work in traditional markets because they're so massaged

and manipulated i mean the fed's own data the federal reserve and new york fed says we've been in a recession for a year and a half now but we just changed the definition and so this human psychology is embedded in every price of anything that we trade and so when you see bitcoin and just the broader crypto space because that market is not as massaged over the last couple of years you're seeing some of it um you get natural price action and the magic lines work great and so um the dog chasing the tail kind of component is every time civilization has changed we go back to a sound money and over the next 80 years and this is where the fourth turning kind of comes into it we make the same mistakes and that sound money eventually becomes unsound now i know it

be a little bit unpopular from the bitcoin perspective to say that bitcoin you know will ever become unsound but since man has been on earth that's happened to every money that we've ever had except for gold and bitcoin does a lot of the things that gold can't do so possibly bitcoin becomes just like gold and you know but in that realm if there's a fear it's like if you look at gold it went nowhere from 1980 till 2007 so for 27 years and that was kind of from the suppression and the tools like futures and options and etfs and the ways that the traditional banker and the traditional politician that everybody's so excited that they're bitcoiners they live by the rules that are outlined in tragedy and hope live by the rules that are outlined in power and

control and so for them to be involved in money to me is kind of a bad thing right and that kind of helps these transitions happen now hopefully they're good and and i'm wrong and and hopefully like bitcoin solves all these problems and and we can kind of get back to a world where people can just focus on living and working and doing things they're passionate about rather than you know spending so much time on the hamster wheel so that was a long-winded way of saying you know when money changes we get those periods of 30 50 70 years where it's sound but over that same time it starts to become unsound again and generally when you see that you get the civilization change yeah and i think that's the hope with bitcoin is that that it's i mean you reference

the bible and eric casen and others have described bitcoin as messianic money like a like a gift from god to fix these systemic problems with their monetary systems that humanity has had for thousands of years and again it could be naive it could be too optimistic it could be too idealist but i do like to appease the idea that bitcoin is that messianic intervention um maybe you we don't have to get biblical about it or spiritual about it you can just yeah well i think when money breaks okay so broken money is a symptom of broken principles and values people will live in a world where principles and values are broken we've been living it since 1980 but they will only pay attention once the money breaks once the inflation

gets so hard where they they like can't stick their head in the sand anymore just remember the steroids conversation like around 2005 people were like oh yeah there's steroids but i don't really care because i like going to a game where they hit 10 home runs because a one to nothing pitcher's battle is pretty boring right and i don't really care to see a guy still bases but if he can hit three jacks in a game like that's what i want to go to so people will live in that world comfortably because we like to be comfortable we don't like to be uncomfortable until the money breaks and so that's where not to be biblical but that's where you take it and say where's the common denominator between bitcoin as a money it's rooted in core principles and values

immutability is like you can't change this you can't do this because the code says it it when you look at the bible it says you can't do these things because the code says it because the laws of principle and value and work says it because that's kind of really our purpose is be online and be on the earth to work at whatever skill we have that whatever passion we're not here to make and collect money so that's to me the the correlation that's really cool about bitcoin it resets hopefully um our entire civilization back to doing things that matter like you're passionate um about all the things at 1031 and tftc like so you're part of that principles and values and that's that's really what like even though they basically just brought the european

financial system here but that's what the founding fathers were about george washington those guys uh were alexander hamilton were passionate about getting away from the evil and the rooted and the brokenness of money and starting again now unfortunately they just took the same financial system brought it over here and if you follow that paper trail that's why the bbis is calling the shots and the feds just the execution arm yeah no that's the hope too like going back to to what we were discussing earlier with China, going out on this Belt and Road Initiative to set up all this infrastructure

just to eventually have the world reserve currency and get all that power, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of time. It's a lot of capital. It's a lot of politicking just to have some sort of advantage within the monetary hierarchy. I always wonder,

and obviously the mean bitcoin fixes this it's like does like what would the world look like if the global superpowers didn't have to politic and strategize that way they were just able to operate on a monetary protocol that was apolitical that nobody had control of them none of them did and so then they're forced to go focus on more productive endeavors outside of this chessboard positioning yeah exactly and i think um to kind of bring that back and one point you made about weaponizing the dollar right so that was to me it was game on uh when was the hearing where zuckerberg was in at congress and they were like you know taking him around pretending to beat him for the labor stuff yes 2019 yeah so i saw one snippet and i posted it and it's the most

important snippet of all this and he basically backhands a senator or congressman or whatever and the guy says something to the effect of son I don't think you know what you're messing with we use a dollar as a weapon to force other people to do what we want them to do and he said in Zuckerberg said something back like I respect that and maybe I don't know what I'm doing but I I do understand that if you don't do what the world needs, you'll be forced to do what you don't want to do or something like that. Right. And the guy had no idea what he's talking about. But to your point, that's what the dollar is now is just a weapon.

And we saw it with Russia and we saw it with China. And so that's what money in a political system always is, is just a weapon for control. And so to tie that together with China. Right. And to tie that together with the image that I sent you about the steps the U.S. took to take that power. Right. So we do all these things between 1900 and 1940s. And then 1944, we have Bretton Woods. Once that dollar network is established, they raise their hands, say, hey, guys, I know we've been the sweatshop of the world, but let's just have peace. And we got this thing called the dollar. It'd be great because then we could all just easily, more easily transact. China's doing that now with the swap line. Right. And so somewhere we're having our Bretton Woods 2.0 conference. But I don't know about we'll read about it once it's done. And maybe you know about it or not. But I think the smart countries, the global south, and this was kind of the tweet that got us or DM that got us back talking on this. The global south, in my opinion, if they were smart, and I think this is what China realized that our politicians have been asleep at the wheel don't realize is with something like Bitcoin. We can live in a world where multi currencies work.

Look, there's 180 currencies in the world right now. I think that's the number. They don't work because they all depend on the dollar. dollar goes up those guys punish dollar goes down those guys have a heyday right and that's where triffin's dilemma comes in you either support the world or you support yourself and we're at that juncture so the global south these smaller countries can do these loans with china to get off the dollar but now have a currency that nobody controls that they could use to be more productive to be so it's like bretton woods 2.0 right and that's the important

of stable coins the importance of stable coins is that they effectively bring back euro dollars which are broken that's why the fed changed from from euro dollars to sofa because they no longer had control of the money uh i wrote an article in bitcoin magazine about that right before uh it may have been after luna but it was before you know the whole crypto ecosystem blew up because of fbf i mean it's liber to suffer right uh well yeah but liber but libor but all financial systems are based off libor so the whole euro dollar market functioned around that libor pricing and all that scandal was i think 2010 or 12 when they had all the you know congressional hearings about desk propping up and pumping up libor to mess around with the rates market so what the

fed taking a full circle a little bit or step back here what the fed missed is what technology did to interest rates in the fed's mind interest rates control the world but they don't because most people don't have a loan they don't need a loan and once technology kind of post-1990s reached a point where you could start a business in your bedroom with a credit card and have an $800 a month uh you know rent and that's all you had because somebody in the philippines is shipping your product and you're creating it online so you got no overhead you don't have this inventory there's no longer a need for for rates for most people right now you can buy home all that kind of stuff but by and large they don't so you can move that rate all around you want and

it doesn't work and so that's what greenspan in my opinion kind of broke or misunderstood so you get into 2008 and you're like well this stuff doesn't work anymore what do we do and so they're massaging it with these desks and all comes light and then department of justice puts some of jp morgan's traders in jail for manipulating gold markets right and but people don't care so meanwhile china is in the background just kind of like okay we're still going to be the sweatshop and we're going to open some agreements so that they can come in and sort of you know fox in the hen house and be like look do you really trust these guys they clearly don't know what's going on like i'll give you a swap line if you want to use some money now china's you know back

and forth bans bitcoin and then unbans it and then bends it again and so you don't really know that's the chess match but you know there's just a lot of things that point to um it's a new environment right 40 years of rates down what if we went 40 years of rates up most of the stuff in the us doesn't work anymore now it's becoming abundantly clear which is and so with all this in mind we've been focusing heavily on china and the power moves they're making as an american citizen somebody cares about this country what do you think america should do as all this is going on and bitcoin exists you know i think um again like you said care about america you grow up in america we love america everybody loves me still of all the places like just look at the covid lockdowns

where would you have rather been as bad as it was right you probably i would guess rather be in America. And we don't get to pick where we're born. We're all born. And so we all have different ideologies that we believe in because of where we were born. Um, but once you're born, you have the opportunity to move around and people move to America. So I think the way, how do we fix that is one, we get rid of 90 year old politicians. Um, I love, I love old people. Um, but after the age of 60 to 65, most of the decisions that you would make on a forward basis don't match what the generations behind you will need. You're a great mentor. You can say, hey, I've already beat my head up on that wall. Here's the shortcut. Let me help you get it. You go,

you know, to me, that was what 2008 was about. It wasn't about global financial crisis. It was about half the workforce wanted to do everything on a yellow notepad. And the only way you did anything was writing on a yellow notepad and dropping the ups and ship it to somebody and somebody physically picked it up and put it on somebody else's desk the other half of the workforce was like you spend three hours doing that i'll do it 10 minutes with an excel spreadsheet and then i'll take the day off right now you've got to have people work so that's how to me the u.s fix it is like stop putting all these bureaucratic red tape so you know pelosi can have an internal trading desk like let people be productive so make money and systems and

business work where people can produce remember get back to the fundamentals and values and and the reason why we're here on earth and and i think when you have some money that happens because people aren't so focused on income they're focused on production so when i talked about the last samurai uh great movie right remember did you watch that i'm ashamed to admit i've not watched last summer right here this weekend homework it's great so tom cruise he's an american warrior and they go in and and um i think it was japan uh they were trying to get rid of the um the ninjas that was their army ninjas right uh is like trying to get rid of cowboys would you rather have a cowboy or just like you know so

they u.s takes um takes guns in and like hey why aren't you guys fighting hand in combat you could just shoot everybody and stand on the hill so he gets captured he's a fierce enemy and the other general uh of i guess the knights i mean not knights but the ninjas he realized he's like i recognize that guy he has the same passion and hunger that i do so he brings him back to his camp and learns from it so like you and i we we're we grew up in a democratic world we believe in democracies and people having freedoms but we can learn from you know good and bad from other societies communist societies or whatever like so that was kind of the two sides there were polar opposites started learning from each other and they became friends and in that

tom cruise learns basically the ways of a ninja and it took him like a year if he would just get his butt kicked every day and he started to notice when he went around the village like wait this guy's you know looking at every grain of wheat he's not just like bundling up grain throwing it because he can sell it real quick because that's what we are now doing in america and so bitcoin and kind of china and and the value system is more of like you know look at the guy that made our microphones right he probably just painstakingly goes over every inch maybe he just throws in a box and sells it i don't really know but uh so the reason why i say that movie's important because he finally has his they're in a like they do practice like ninja practice every

day or whatever a warrior practice and the whole entire world slows down and he sees the moves before they happen and he finally beats the guy and so then he's like i'm not a you know u.s warrior i'm like a true value system warrior and so he goes on and like fights a battle and they all get killed by the u.s people sitting on the hill shooting a gun or actually i think he may have lived but all of the other warriors get killed but they had like whatever a hundred guys versus two thousand and they almost won i need to go watch that movie yeah it's great sorry i ruined it for you that's okay i'll watch it anyway i mean you said something interesting there like what really matters is production not how much money you make especially under a sound

monetary system i think that's important to really internalize as if you're able to increase production by really bringing back opportunity cost and making more efficient capital allocation a thing that actually exists which doesn't exist now because of the manipulation of interest rates people are more productive hopefully prices go down and you don't need as much income to to survive and thrive in this world you can lower your time preference and focus on these things that you're passionate about and bring actual value to the world yeah i think a key question i think everybody should ask themselves right if you have kids do i want to teach my kids values principles and work habits and skills

that they can use at 20 and 30 and 40 or do i just want to hand them money Right. And so today it feels like the common belief in America is like, let's just hand them money. It doesn't, that's probably the worst decision that we could do. But if I teach my kids a real skill, not saying they have to go be a plumber or carpenter or whatever, but if I teach them how to do it at some point, they will use that skill to build something, to do some work that matters and sure like i'm as guilty of as anybody else like focusing on income do i have enough like my neighbor's just got a new house i should get a new house like all that kind of stuff but i think to answer a little bit ago you asked like what could america do is like

in our education system and dalio touches on this teach skills now we're like reading macbeth and all that kind of stuff three times over and i'm sure maybe there's some stuff in there that is a skill but like teach skills because skills build wealth money doesn't money most often destroys it i mean like that's part of my career is being involved in wealth management and seeing how money impacts people emotionally yeah that's one thing i'm very happy my father did an early age wasn't necessarily teaching me skills i guess that's the point i'm trying to maybe you don't have any skills so like i'm not gonna be able to teach my kid how to do woodworking or anything like that or change a motor uh i don't have those skills but maybe i

could learn with him and like below that just instilling work ethic i started a paper out at 12 years old so so you have a skill and you do it right is it's building businesses or help people build businesses or finding investment opportunities right there's money and income that's involved with that and it's lucrative but it takes real skill to be that kind of leader that can go help people figure it out and so if you're dragging your kid along or your kid seeing you do those things and make those sacrifices i mean all i can say is when my business partner kind of introduced me to the phrase more is caught than is taught so or it's caught then it's taught you may not be verbally teaching your kid anything

but every action he or she sees you do is teaching them everything yeah and and that's the thing that they're not going to remember what you said or how you said it they might but they're going and i see as my kids get older i see them do stuff and i'm like i know where they got that he's sometimes good sometimes bad right now it's something i'm hyper aware of now is my oldest son he's almost four and he's becoming hyper aware of everything around him yeah that's about when it is going on uh and it's uh it's scary it's not scary it was like it really makes you contemplate like all right what example am i setting so let's put it that if if parents and i go to a men's group and there's a whole i can send it to you offline a whole this guy's

phenomenal but we spent 52 weeks on money we talked about money starting in like week 48 right because money is a set of principles that's why bitcoin's awesome uh it's not a number it's not a digit um there's now we're on wisdom again it's a biblical thing and like we go through proverbs and if you read the first seven proverbs just seven and apply those every day there will be no issues so if in a large part of it is if parents took so today parents how we fix america parents have to take back control the school is not there to teach my kid the school is not there to get my kid a job the school is not there to make sure my kid learns to make an income i am right so if we teach them more is called than is taught right if we teach them those actions that

lead to it then everybody would be successful value they'll be productive work will happen because that's like the core thing we're supposed to do is work put here to work do good be good and you know we can't all be bazillionaires we can't all be millionaires and um when it comes to money, like there's going to be poor people and there's going to be rich people. And those people that figure out how to be rich, they should, and this is what corporate America is missing. They should do the hard lifting of creating the business, starting the business to hire people, right? Cause that enriches those people to do work and they should send down appropriately fair amount of money. So those people can have great things in their life and

improve their life and in the last 20 years you're seeing ceos hold all that money at the top and then creating and intensifying that hamster wheel and that's what like it happened post 1971 with dollars right is the exponential rate with which the hamster wheel sped up yeah now now we're at that point where it's just completely broken again people will pay attention when the money is broken yeah that's the thing like it's a bit messed up because everybody does want to be rich now because they think that's the only way to live comfortably and it's like you could solve the problem of living comfortably on a more modest income then yeah you wouldn't have everybody trying to be rich like going back to like do you

want to more is caught than is taught um and like just don't give your kids money give them skills like thinking of the tiktok generation values principle so tiktok is very important i am extremely anti tiktok yeah because i've done my homework and it is a chinese backdoor and there was i forgot the government or somebody looked into it and you know whose partner is okay if microsoft owns it but not okay if uh i forgot the parent company ten cent yeah ten cent um but But in America, TikTok flips videos that waste your time and don't teach you a skill. So what are you catching? Junk, the Kardashians, the housewives of whatever, like just pure junk.

In China, supposedly, their 14 to 16 year old, they don't, they have like a limited time they can use it. But what is it teaching them? Like engineering, math, skills. And so there was this poll. I didn't do deep research, so I just assume it's true, where they polled like the average 14, 16 year old in the U.S. What do they want to be? An influencer. They polled the average 14, 16 year old in China. Are they TikTok users? What do they want to be? An astronaut. Like which one of those two civilizations is going to be better in the next 40 years?

and that kind of fits into our empty cities and all that kind of stuff it's like if the cities are empty those kids will figure out how to build it do you think a a influencer other than mr beast or whatever is running around in africa doing the oil or water wells uh but who's gonna win there yeah if you're going to be us yeah if you're going to vegas and those are your two options which one are you putting put money on the engineers yeah every time yeah it is it is scary to especially consider the social climate here in the united states and you could see things devolving rather quickly though i'd like to stay white-pilled and optimistic and i do believe that things can change rather quickly if people do wake up and i do think

inflation pressures are forcing people to ask hard questions that will lead them to wake up to right this is broken we need to fix it um i agree with you staying positive right now i i tend to like come across as negative and i just kind of like dive deep into the foundations and it becomes very clear like what the problem is but most people you know like the steroid thing well there's steroids in the pga you can go look at people's driving distance and it's not all because technology got better right an athlete is not better at 33 than they were at 25 it's not possible your one out of 50 will be right your genetic makeup declines starting at age 27 for the male and actually i think it's before that but whatever um so you um i just drew a blank

where i went with that because i got off tangent what was it you said we were uh optimistic staying up oh yeah so staying optimistic is is you know building those habits back into everything that we do and and that's how we get out of the mess and and if we can get leaders in society to kind of push back a little bit and and people will start to wake up and be like oh well maybe you know i don't need to just go on vacations and sit on social media all day i'd rather take some time off and live a life yeah we need something like jfk's uh school gym curriculum get healthy people and yeah no we need better leaders too when you look at all the politicians the 90 year old politicians giving speeches they're so obviously vapid and their speak is

just pure politics speak it's nothing inspiring it's nothing worthwhile it's all projection and propaganda that's one thing the world is really lacking and people are finding it in independent media that's why they're going to places like joe rogan and choco willick and jordan peterson whoever it may be it's because the people at the helm of the political apparatus just aren't providing that there's no so that's the inspiration there propaganda is an interesting word right um it's very interesting because now if you believe anything that wasn't put out by the fda or the fed or anything like you're just a propagandist right you know tinfoil hat guy But if you go read the House of Morgan, okay, and it goes back to the 1800s and it walks through how J.P. Morgan was built and blah, blah, blah, and all the funding of Mussolini and Hitler and all those things, right?

In the 20s, guess what that was? Propaganda. They actually used the terms conspiracy. One of the guys, I've totally drawn a blank here, that set up the Federal Reserve. There were two competing Federal Reserve plans. The one that won was from a German guy that came out here to bring banking to the United States, whose brother was head of the German CIA. Well, OK, that does not sound like somebody we should put in control of things. But the point being is now like you're a conspiracy theorist in 2020. You and me, we're conspiracy theorists. And this is where it sounds negative, but it's really positive.

So 100 years after all those things happened in the 20s, 30s, and 40s, there are documents, government documents, information that say, hey, this was going on. These things that in that day people said, that's not right. You shouldn't be doing it. And they were like, oh, you're just a conspiracy theorist. Let's shut you down. It is now known to be true fact. so in 2020 and in post 2020 most of the things that we're finding out even look at the covid the way the narrative around that has shifted um there was a wuhan lab deal there were scientists

that leaked stuff all that kind of jazz right most of what fauci talked about was not true but it's still conspiracy and we're conspiracy theorists we're talking about it so when enough time passes that people forget and this is what the fourth turning talks about then we start to say oh wow that was bad you know the what was conspiracy is the truth more often than not and what is claimed to be the truth in the moment tends to be what is really the conspiracy when you go back and look at history and so I think that ties into this whole conversation about dollars in China because China realizes that and that's sort of where I think TikTok is kind of that avenue to create that division and how you you know how do you win in a sport

you know you understand the rules you understand the other team a little sun tzu um and then you devise a strategy that either confuses or creates division and then you go do your thing and you win i uh was pulling up a tweet that i want logan to to pull up because i think dave column um defines conspiracy theory the best i am a conspiracy theorist i believe men men and women of wealth and power conspire if you don't think so you're what is called an idiot if you believe stuff but fear the label you are what is called a coward yeah that's perfect that's like when you break down the actual definition of a conspiracy theorist it is somebody who's making theories that men and women of power are conspiring to do things which if you don't believe that they are you are

an idiot yeah and you're not willing so this is where proof of work comes in right you're not willing to go back and do some study do some work to understand that things that happened and transpired how they happened how they transpired and then what the real truth was so like we should all be conspiracy theorists you know the whole idea that science follows the scientific method is just rendered completely false by 2020. we didn't like create a hypothesis test it we just jumped straight to the test and this whole trust the science thing is just completely anathema to the whole idea of science in the first place you have a hypothesis you test it and science is an ongoing intellectual exploration it's not set in stone and i think

it's always sunny in philadelphia eclipse been popping up recently or mac yeah uh just goes through history of like galileo aristotle isaac newton it's like they were the best scientists of the day everybody thought they were the smartest people and they turned out to be a bitch and a lot of those guys right they were right on a lot of things and a lot of those guys they ended up in jail for a period or or just completely ostracized and black was it aristotle's or socrates um i think all yeah start to death yeah tesla too i think um anyway so that's just sort of i think the big uh where we get back to the positivity like the big opportunity and hopefully people in our power and our leadership will realize this and they'll stop like

putting the brakes on bitcoin and just the general crypto ecosystem so not to say a dirty word but like financial services is huge you could be a hedge fund you could be wealth management you could be a derivatives trader you could be a rates guy so like crypto ecosystem is like saying financial services right within financial services there are base layer assets there are risk assets and they're toxic assets right and we're just kind of like at the base layer asset now there's some risk assets and some toxic assets in there but you know we're there so to get back to being positive like how do we look through that we say well how can this benefit the people and how can it generate work and jobs and and things that we can focus on right and and for smaller countries

global south second and third world countries that's what us was but we were smart enough at that point and had real leaders who realized we can create a dollar network and become get our seat at the table and become a leader throughout the globe and help set standards and policies and so that's the opportunity with bitcoin is for those smaller countries it's a way to opt out it's a parallel network so they can stay in if they want maybe one day it becomes its own network but i think i mean own like single financial system but there's no industry that has one winner there's always multiple players and having a parallel network gives people options so you participate or you don't or you cross you know in from one market to another and that's kind of

what china's doing with these you know dollar loans that that return in renminbi and yuan yeah and that's something i become more passionate about too is particularly for americans listening to the show which is a majority of our audience base we're international we have a global audience but the overwhelming portion of it is here in the united states and it's i don't know the exact answer to it but i think history has proven that it's possible it's like don't wait on the government to do this bitcoin's open source rights are taken and defended they're not going to be given to you so the government's not going to give us these rights at the end of the day yes they could create a somewhat lax regulatory environment to make it as easy as possible

to go do what we want to do but at the end of the day it comes down to the individuals actually yeah building on this thing and then more importantly speaking up and fighting on behalf of it uh in the battlefield of intellectual debate and yeah i gotta i really think that is the most disheartening part of the united states of america in 2023 is everybody so dependent on the government and the central banks to fix the problems that are inherent in our system and it's just completely insane to me because it's very clear that they created the problems in the first place and to think that the arsonist is going to put out the fire is nonsensical it's literally insane to keep doing the same thing going to the government fix

this fix that and expecting them to do it when they've broken everything and that's where um there's one thing that backs money nothing else right it's two but the same thing faith and belief when you have faith and belief in something you get it done when you have faith and belief that somebody else will accept this unit whatever it is you pick acorns if i believe that marty will accept acorns for the book on your shelf and you believe that that acorn is worth more than that book you'll accept it but you will only accept it if you believe and have conviction that whomever else in your circle will turn around and accept it when you need a candy bar or whatever right and so faith and belief is all that in my opinion all that backs money but what's important about

that is faith and belief is all that backs anything. So if you have a strong faith, strong belief, strong conviction that you have the skills, Morris Cawthon has taught, to do good work that will generate income, you'll go do it. But if you're filled with fear, which unfortunately is what governments know, because in the 20s, they started doing psychological studies on people and they carried that through to the 60s where they did the really big ones at stanford and they created this thing called the internet where they know exactly what we're searching what we're looking at so they have a very deep picture into our psychology and now the way the information and money travels around they know what we're buying too so they have like this intense

you know stranglehold on fear and the average person as you look at you know again take it spiritual we don't have to get that way but if you look at the decline in spirituality it follows the dollar it looks exactly the two charts look almost identical so if you got a population a group of people globally that have less conviction faith and belief and more fear who wins doesn't matter what money you use yeah and i have belief in faith in bitcoin because the underlying principles of that scarce it's digital easy to verify easy to secure and that gives me faith to accept it then yeah and it was working because that's to me that's like the whole you know scientific method well it's not really going to work in the west because it's harder than a credit

card to just walk to the store and go but if you go to africa where a dude doesn't have access to to a bank for a hundred miles and he's got to cross an anaconda and two tigers or a lion what's he going to use the nokia flip phone with some bitcoin on it yeah yeah so test do you know do your seven steps scientific method in those regions of the world that truly need you know banking access because it's not a problem in america like in in europe and there are parts of banking that are broken, but bankers are always going to be around and they're always going to do what bankers do. And, you know, financial systems have been involved since whatever the 12, 1300. So that's kind of it. Yeah. It's been great. I did. Yeah. Hope you

enjoyed it. Is there any parting notes we should leave the freaks with? You know, go find faith believe in conviction in something right uh more is caught than is taught if you have kids teach them if you have friends teach them uh you know teach them through your work and you know hopefully that catches on and people are more productive um i do a podcast navigating bitcoin's noise a little shameless plug nothing nothing great just the way to have general conversations don't sell yourself sure and uh right on substack just came at gookin.substack.com and just primarily when things hit me like your email uh where some important points and um don't get too caught up in the noise and the fear and you know just kind of be who you are if you are comes to the

noise and the fear around bitcoin just always remember there's only 21 million governments and central banks can't stop printing money and people need a solution it's very simple That's great advice. Yeah. All right. That's all we got today, freaks. Cain, thank you. Long time coming.

Glad we got it. Glad we got it in the books. We'll do it again at some point in the future. Let's do it. All right. Peace and love, freaks. The King.