TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #482: Freedom Fighters Need Bitcoin with Lyudmyla Kozlovska & Bota Jardemalie

Episode Date: February 20, 2024

Marty sits down with Lyudmyla Kozlovska and Bota Jardemalie to discuss activism against the EU regulators' attacks on Bitcoin. - PoW submission to the EU regulators (example of testimonials we want to collect from bitcoin miners and those who socially benefit from it): https://en.odfoundation.eu/a/724499,defend-pow-submission-to-esma/ - EU AML submission: https://en.odfoundation.eu/a/723329,submission-to-fatf-tools-to-prevent-abuse-of-aml-cft-laws/ -Submission to FinCen US: https://en.odfoundation.eu/a/724918,submission-to-fincen-us-digital-asset-aml-act/ - Site / Support OD Foundation: https://en.odfoundation.eu/how-can-you-help/ - LN to donate in Bitcoin and support our advocacy work in the EU and US: 🫡 [e-mail] 🫂 [e-mail] - Lyudmyla on X: @LyudaKozlovska - Bota on X: @jardemalie 0:00 - Intro 8:00 - EU attacks on Bitcoin 18:58 - Abuse of KYC/AML 25:10 - Confronting regulators about their consequences 37:45 - Timeline on preventing EU action 41:15 - What can be done 47:52 - What does the success of Bitcoin look like 50:11 - What it’s like when they come for you 52:50 - The laws are more draconian and less effective 58:04 - Narrative war 1:02:31 - Complacency 1:07:39 - Dealing with the stress 1:12:55 - Wrapping up Shoutout to our sponsors: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠River⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Unchained⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Zaprite⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bitcoin Talent Co⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TFTC Merch is Available: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shop Now⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join the TFTC Movement: Main ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YT Channel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Clips ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YT Channel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Marty Bent: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

so freaks it's your boy marty here to introduce this episode of tftc i was joined by bota giardamale and luda kozlovska two human rights defenders on the front lines defending bitcoin in the eu and the united states pushing back against overburden some regulations that are on the table right now particularly as they pertain to proof of work and whether or not it should be able to exist in the eu and it seems like here in the united states with the eia they're beginning the government as the regulators are beginning their march to try to do something with proof of work here in the united states to incredibly inspiring women really fighting to defend rights matt and i talk about all the time

on rabbit hole recap rights aren't granted they aren't given they are taken and defended we have taken our right to monetary sovereignty with bitcoin now it is time to defend that right and luda and bota are on the front lines defending your right to bitcoin your right to mine bitcoin right to accept bitcoin in a peer-to-peer fashion your right to use bitcoin privately it's really inspiring i think you guys are going to like it it was brought to you by our friends at river river is the easiest place to buy bitcoin the best place to buy bitcoin they build their own infrastructure they don't have any trusted third parties you can dca using river and if you do you're not going to pay any fees so just set it and forget it if you want to gift bitcoin they

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on the expenses of a full-time hire they can do that so go to bitcointalent.co tell them the tftc sent you go find the best talent in the world build out the bitcoin standard time is nigh enjoy this it you've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free when you talk about a fed just gone nuts all all the central banks going nuts so it's all acting like safe haven i believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency bitcoin wins in the world of fiat currencies bitcoin is the victor i mean that's part of the bull case for bitcoin if you're not paying attention you probably should be bota and luda welcome to the show hello hello everyone thank you so much

thank you for coming on it's been nice uh getting to know you two over the last month or so i guess luda we met in nashville at the energy and mining summit which was really cool event and it was really cool to have you there considering what you guys are working on in the eu and i guess the topic of today is regulators both in the eu and now the us really focusing on bitcoin mining as something that needs to be taken care of and you two are on the front lines in the eu to make sure that there isn't a proof of work ban throughout the European Union, which is on the table right now. So I guess we can just start with what is going on in the European Union.

Why have they honed in on proof of work and what could happen if nothing is done in the next few months? Yeah, allow me maybe to start a bit also introducing myself, why we, together with VOTA and other activists, are doing this work. So, first of all, I'm Human Rights Defender. I'm a president and founder of Open Dialogue Foundation. This is a human rights organization, international, non-partisan, non-profit organization. And we became a victim, a target of attack, coordinated attack of three authoritarian regimes back in 2018 because of our human rights work on international level.

So, we had all protection, like political protection, even President Macron, President of Germany, Many parliaments of France, Belgium, Germany and many others supported us. And with all this protection, we were not able to be protected financially. So regimes were able to weaponize our banking data, basically depriving us of the right to have financial services in the heart of Europe. And this is the reason why we discovered and used Bitcoin as a tool to resist against transnational repression when authoritarian regimes abuse financial action task force recommendations and they grab your all financial data

to prosecute your donors and recipients of the funds. As a consequence, our volunteers and our human rights defenders in authoritarian states were tortured, disappeared, were imprisoned for many years. So for us, Bitcoin is something death and life tool, saving life tool, while for example, we don't have privileges

like most of people living in democratic countries. And this is the reason why we educate regulators. is the reason why we defend proof of work which actually guarantee us as a human right defenders financially excluded people um the use of financial tool as a payment and his fundraising instrument and this is the reason why also my colleague water and many other activists in our building true change coalition we bring this topic uh hearing all the time questions why you use bitcoin why you use this instrument if it's associated with the energy and actually security threats it can harm environment it's actually dangerous for our energy security and i think

bota will mention actually what exactly we address right now yeah thank you luna uh yeah i'm a human right defender and a lawyer and we've been working together with ludmila for many many years uh for almost 15 years and uh right now it's one of the issues that we are working is uh this is what we call bitcoin advocacy so we as the end users of bitcoin uh we realize that it's absolutely necessary to defend um bitcoin and specifically proof of work in the european union started with the european union but i'll go to the us after so uh what lud already mentioned when we were bombarded with these questions how you use uh technology that is bad for the environment that is energy wasting and so we started looking where this information is coming from what's happening

at the eu level and we realize that there are two um kind of major attack on um bitcoin consensus mechanism of on proof of work right uh first of all this is perceived by the regulator by the european commission by the european securities and market authority by the european central bank as um energy wasting mechanism that is dangerous for the european energy security and as well as there is an attack that it's uh extremely dangerous technology for the environment that it has a very uh high carbon footprint so it's bad for the environment and uh when we say that um this is something that the ban of bit of proof of work is on the table in the european union um everyone thinks that there will be some kind of bills that there would be specifically

specific language that uh proof of work is banned since january one right but no it's not how it works the way how it works is that right now um so-called asthma asthma is a european securities and market authority is developing uh sustainability indicators so this sustainability indicators for all uh crypto assets activities and specifically for uh bitcoin consensus mechanism and so they will be deciding uh they will develop a standard at what um crypto assets uh so-called like sustainable so good for the environment or not at least not bad for the environment and what kind of crypto assets are not good not sustainable and the problem is that um if we look at the narrative that exists at every level of the european union we see that there is a very

very negative perception of the uh bitcoin mining and i would say there is a certain there's a really discriminatory treatment in the bias that existed the institutions because this is something that they are not doing the research asking like like um in you know voters that this is how it's used etc no they are like already specifically created this bias and the information the sources that they're using they are uh something that uh raised a lot of concerns this is something that is not you know peer-reviewed um literature right no it's usually something that is uh some newspaper articles or res reports that were specifically focused on negative externalities of bitcoin and uh of course we worry about this

very much we know that uh the deadline is coming it's the first of january 2021 or 25, sorry, that European Parliament is expecting a proposal from the European Commission. And so they will want to know what kind of cryptoasset activity is considered to be sustainable and what is not. And if it's something is not sustainable, you have to remember that means that it's basically that it's something And that all the institutions, specifically European Central Bank, will create a disincentive to invest into that particular asset.

And that's why it's very dangerous. And we see that similar trends are happening in the U.S. right now. And it's really in parallel because you probably know that the EU Energy Information Administration already started collecting information from crypto miners about their energy use. And they have a specific deadline by which the information will be collected. It's by the end of July 2024. And after that, the Energy Information Administration will start publishing its reports, right? But we already see that there is a certain bias even in the way how they started questioning the industry about the energy use. So we can say that the development is happening on both sides of the pond.

yeah it feels like the wall not the walls are caving in but it feels like the the pressure is certainly on and as you two mentioned there's a ton of bias a ton of discrimination it's really disheartening as somebody i've been involved in the mining industry for six years now here in the united states and it's abundantly clear to me uh utilities providers energy producers that bitcoin is additive to their operations bitcoin just driven by pure economics is there bitcoin mining to take advantage of wasted stranded energy sources to make these energy systems more efficient to the point where it's enabling producers and utilities companies to reinvest to build up more reliable infrastructure and it's particularly interesting

that right now europe's particularly and even the u.s to a certain extent have began using bias and discriminating against bitcoin mining at a time when both our energy systems are relatively weak to where they were only a decade or two ago i mean specifically in europe germany being the prime example of a country that completely destroyed its energy system over the last 20 years and can use all the help it could get and if action isn't taken in the next few months they will completely block out a a source of uh energy efficiency in bitcoin mining that could really help them make their grid systems more stable it's really insane and then on top of that like again the bringing bias and discrimination to it like we see outside of mining this bitcoin in general the

the line here in the united states as i'm sure it is in europe as well as that bitcoin's only used by criminals drug users uh money launderers and as you two explained earlier and have shown through your work with uh human rights activists like no it's actually enabling uh human rights activists to uh evade despotic governments and in fact like kyc aml regulations that you want to thrust on everybody using a non-custodial wallet put them in danger because the despotic governments use these this information from kyc aml policies to target dissidents yeah exactly and i would like to say that with a perspective of what's happening in both in u.s in you if you compare these two countries in u.s you at least have voices and

very active miners bitcoin miners and bitcoin community who educates regulators but again even with this work when we've been last uh two weeks in uh senate and congress and also we met with state department these financial action task forces uh we conducted over 27 meetings in person uh during this uh our advocacy mission in dc the first time heard how anti-money laundering regulation how financial action task forces recommendation abused by dictators how banking data were organized not only in authoritarian states domestically but how they actually can be all exposed in democracies and we conducted the first round table for crypto assets where we testified about this unfortunate experience as a consequences of this regulation from one side

But from other sides, we provided recommendations and tools we used to resist, again, these transnational repressions of authoritarian regimes when basically IML and CFT regulation is used as a transnational tool against opposition and everyone around us in civil society and human rights activists, even abroad, not only domestically. So we see actually positive attitude. So, for example, we were asked, OK, guys, what you want? And we said we want to have neutral language towards Bitcoin and proof of work and actually peer-to-peer transactions, privacy instruments like mixers, because we have no other tools. And we got a response, OK, we need then to have this dialogue. So if you go to bring to the miners, for example, who will testify alone with you, how it operates, will you help us to understand it? And I think this is a kind of key moment when we can bring voices from one side as end users, those who use this technology. We're not perceived as lobbyists and we are not lobbyists.

We just defend our human rights and Bitcoin for us human rights because we don't have other instruments. And for many of us, it's a question of life and death. We don't have this privilege to choose, am I actually paying today with this credit card or this credit card? We just don't have credit cards. This is our reality. And this is how we live. So these perspectives change narratives. And we need to remember that right now narratives are shaping our lives and shaping decision-making process of politicians.

And we need to have voices of Bitcoiners from all over the world because EU is going to approach regulation to mining in a global way as G7 countries. So once it's adopted in EU, they want to use and boost this methodology to other G7 countries. And we don't want to allow any democracy to use in a regulatory language negative association labeling towards Bitcoin or proof of work or peer-to-peer transaction or any privacy instruments because it affects our life entirely. Imagine for us, the only instrument we have to protect political prisoners, victims of tortures, it's actually to have support of democracies, democratic governments. And if these democratic governments label the only instrument we have, how to deliver humanitarian aid, how to support families of political prisoners, as illicit activity, as a threat to national security, energy security, environmental harmful, that means that authoritarian regime immediately going to use this against everyone who is using this instrument to receive our help. We don't want it. We don't want it to allow even to happen. And this is the reason why we educate and this is the reason why we try to bring as much as possible awareness how and why we use Bitcoin as a tool for human rights and humanitarian aid.

And when we asked by regulators, OK, so, for example, they said, you know, we're concerned because criminals are using Bitcoin as an instrument. I said, of course, every technology can be used by bad actors and good actors. But we, as good actors, we should have a legal way how to use it. You should not punish us because some criminals are using these instruments or provide us other instruments to operate in authoritarian states where most of people are financially excluded for political reasons. And they have no answer what to provide us. And this is the reason why we think it's really important to educate right now when there is huge speed, where there is kind of, you know, this wish to show results quickly, especially before elections in Europe, where the main demand from the society to deal with energy crisis and environmental crisis.

And we don't want proof of work and Bitcoin mining be, in general, just a scapegoat, where it's easy to punish this technology because there is no voice in defense. We should not allow this. No. Bertha, do you want to jump in? No, no, I just basically covered all grounds. But I just want to say that how we present it to the regulator, right? When we say that this instrument is used by terrorists and money launderers, right? But we as activists, we've been accused in money laundering, in being members of extremist terrorist organizations,

in being threat of national security by the regimes where we defend human rights. And just kind of an example, once we walked into a meeting with people from the commission that were drafting the anti-money laundering regulations and we wanted to discuss this problem of abuses of this language that is an instrument of money laundering and financing of terrorism. First thing we ask, we ask them, have you ever met a real terrorist or a money wanderer? And they're kind of, no, of course not. You know, in our line of business, we don't really meet them. And we said, I'm a money wanderer and accused of being money wanderer and a member of an extremist organization luda is a threat of to national security and uh money wanderer as well we had with us a person from naval foundation and we said that at that time they were um they were foreign agents terrorists and money wanderers and so we had activists from all over the world

in one room and we all were labeled by dictators by authoritarian regimes that we are those criminals but we are normal people and we actually defend human rights and we work with institutions and we explain we kind of being whistleblowers about the crimes committed by many regimes so when you label a technology that is an instrument for money launders you you really create this bias it's like the way how the authoritarian regimes create bias against us and this is something that we want to fight against and we have our examples we can explain to the regulator what what is happening but at the same time we need people from the industry explaining their side of the story saying that you know these are the regulations this is how

they work. And if there is an article about this person, that this person has committed some crimes, even if it's not proven, it's just a pure, pure piece of fake news, right? They're still going to take your bank account away because of the existing regulations. So what we need to do, We need to have people from the regulated industry and people like us to show the consequences to the regulators, the consequences of their actions, how people like us get financially excluded. Yeah, and the really disheartening thing about all of this is the two-tiered system that exists. I mean, the amount of money laundering that happens and is facilitated via the U.S. dollar far exceeds anything that Bitcoin does on a day-to-day, year-to-year basis or has done historically. And then the same regulators that are really close with the banking and financial industry specifically let these banks get away with murder, sometimes quite literally, but figuratively mainly. I mean, when J.P. Morgan settled out of court with the U.S. Virgin Islands, they paid a $75 million fine so that they wouldn't have to go to court and have discovery around the fact that J.P. Morgan was banking Jeffrey Epstein as he was laundering money for his sex trafficking operation.

obviously famously with jhsbc in the mexican drug cartels they had teller windows that had slots where briefcases full of cash could be pushed through by by the drug cartels they paid a small fine for that and yet here comes bitcoin which isn't facilitating a lot of this yes as you mentioned both the criminals can certainly use it but it's it's a technology they drink water they use 2fa security as well we don't throw these things make them illegal because terrorists are using them and it's what i toil with personally like are these regulators just that lazy that they're willing to bring a sledgehammer and just smash anything that can be used by a criminal or are they more nefarious where they recognize the freedom that bitcoin

enables and they don't like that freedom because it doesn't allow them to exert control that they would otherwise like to have and that's where i see the sort of crossroads that we're at right now because we have bitcoin here it is one of the most freedom enabling technologies that humanity's ever come into contact with and that really scares governments that that like control and it's convincing them that hey you're gonna have to be comfortable giving up control because freedom is more important than you controlling everybody's everyday life and what they do with their money i think we still have hope anyways because um i mean we have concrete results right for the last two years of our advocacy for bitcoin in order to protect it as a payment and fundraising

instruments we succeed to do so in eu in european union so we have an upcoming anti-manual regulation actually recognition that crypto assets can be used as a fundraising instrument and actually payment instruments. We have also provisions to defend and protect financial data of both financial institutions and cryptoasset services providers. And we also have a provision about abuse of anti-money laundering regulation mechanism, especially disinformation to financially exclude people. So specific categories, refugees, civil society organization, even mentioned in a regulation. But it's not enough. And unfortunately, G7 countries were not happy about our achievements and this is the reason why we came to us uh two weeks ago to speak

with uh 27 representatives of regulatory bodies both senates financial action task forces state department and congress because the u.s assumed from one side that they create domestic legislation right now is the process of reform of anti-money loan regulation and actually shaping crypto assets regulation in U.S., but it's not true. Whenever U.S. decides to shape in a regulatory way domestically, it affects the entire world. And when G7 countries, U.S. demand, for example, say that, okay, we have to look into peer-to-peer transactions, self-hosted wallets as something that is a threat to financial integrity, it affects, of course, other democracies. And we afraid that our achievements here in you will be questioned so we need again to defend self-hosted

wallets we again need to defend mixers as a privacy tools and do this um our work and we cannot ignore it because for example yesterday in damos and most uh we have discussion with some bitcoiners and they said you can just simply not comply i cannot not comply because i get protection from you and for example my life would be literally under threat if i would not get protected from the attack since 2018 by three authoritarian regimes and i'm really grateful for being protected but from other side i protect another people political prisoners and all of us we need to have both support of democracies and we need to be able to use bitcoin as a peer-to-peer transactions as a decentralized mechanism built on proof of work mechanism so we need to provide

security for developers of privacy instruments and also for miners if we don't succeed to do those things that means that we lose our the only instruments and luckily we have seen support from those regulators and legislators who are pro-human rights of course you always have bad Like in every sphere. But how we succeed to have these changes, how we succeed to have different national interparliamentary platforms, provisions that reflect the use of Bitcoin and stable coins for human rights and humanitarian purposes in the regulations for 57 member states, both North America, Europe and Asia, actually thanks to these people. so there are people and legislators who listen in us but the problem is we need to bring more voices we need them to educate make face-to-face meetings where they can ask direct questions they will never risk it to ask even online or publicly but they need to be able to to get this information it's an effort but it's a safe effort because you cannot do this activity in uh at the returning

states remind yourself what's happened in kazakhstan back in january 2022 when most of miners were just cut off of internet you know why it happened it actually was the days when authorities of kazakhstan employed russian troops and domestical troops to shoot peaceful protesters they not only shoot freedoms they shoot real people they killed bitcoin money in kazakhstan and they killed their citizens who were protesting for freedoms so the same they do right now with peer-to-peer transactions in kazakhstan on the front of fighting against peer-to-peer transactions and everything around self-hosted words everything actually around any kind of financial freedoms is the most of sophisticated actual regime able to lift sanctions from russian banks in this country

in US. And this is all happening. And we ask questions to US regulators. Okay, you want to have effective mechanisms towards to Russia to circumvent sanctions, then change travel rule, change assumption that you treat equally financial institutions of third countries, authoritarian states, and actually democracies, that you transfer intelligence, financial intelligence knowledge from democracy to authoritarian states, which is not used against actually criminals and organized groups or terrorists. Kazakhstan recognized Taliban as a legitimate government, but it's used against civil society in opposition. It takes three to five minutes to block bank account of opposition or civil society members who is fundraising for

actually you know support of families of political prisoners and this is our reality and these arguments they change perspective of those politicians who meet us and those who support human rights because normally they want to support us but they don't know how and they don't know what is the role of bitcoin because you would not read it in the media where you do will see that media will write about abuse of anti-money laundering counterterrorism regulation Have you seen, for example, maybe publications how, for example, activists were deprived or immigrants deprived the right to have financial services in millions in democracies? There is no this kind of information. And this is the reason why it's so important to work further on those achievements which we have.

And we have a lot of achievements right now. We just have no capacity to go and continue this work. And this is the reason why we came to Bitcoin and said, let's guys do it together, because you are the same activists as us, because Satoshi Nakamoto was the same freedom activist as us. He created and gave us this tool, but it's nothing for granted. You have to defend it. It's a basic human rights and human rights are dying if they are not defended. And we saw it many, many times. that's a very good point rights aren't granted they're taken and defended and as it stands today with bitcoin we have to we have bitcoin we're using it in a peer-to-peer fashion we're mining pretty efficiently in many areas and we have to defend the right to do these things and with that in mind i know there is a pressing timeline here so let's dive into like particulars of what is in front of the european parliament as it pertains to proof of work how

long we have to convince lawmakers in the eu not to do this and what will happen if it does or does not pass yeah we have to work on several fronts right this is not just the european parliament and in the european parliament we actually um going to have elections uh in the summer of this year so when the new european parliament uh comes and starts working in september we have to be already fully ready and we have to work by then with all um european institutions it means that asthma it means uh the european commission means with the european central bank We have to work on those biases, we have to have the meetings, we really have to participate in the process of developing this sustainability indicator that ESME is doing.

We have to demand to meet with them, together with Bitcoin mining community and with the experts on our side and address this issue, address this bias and really explain to them uh our position and um currently the all existing research you know right now when when um you say something that um that uh bitcoin mining is actually can be um helpful for the adoption of the renewable it actually facilitates adoption of the renewable this is something that nobody knows about it in the eu and we have to come with miners from all over the world we really need to bring miners in from africa and demonstrate how they work there very successfully and they not only um facilitate adoption of renewable they actually provide people with work there they

create electricity for the communities that otherwise would have not had electricity and this issue is extremely important for the european union and we also have to work at the level of the member states don't forget the european union is is a 27 countries right has 27 countries members but we don't have to work with all of them but there are five key countries uh that really um that affect both the energy policy and the environmental policy. And we have to work with the regulators there, and we have to work with the parliament there. So this is the best time to start.

We really should have started two years ago. But, you know, we just hope that everyone understands that the issue is quite pressing, and we have to jump into it. and so what can anybody listen to this do to help you guys and we talked particularly this show a lot of people that listen to this show are completely disenchanted from politics whether it's here in the u.s or the eu um myself included to a certain extent like i have this presupposition that the governments have too much control they like that control and they're not going to give it up but you two have been doing a good job over the last week

convincing me that again these rights need to be defended and we have seen here in the united states uh when the government tries to overstep its bounds and infringe on bitcoiners rights to to use bitcoin in particular ways that we have submitted comments to finsen the treasury basically saying hey this is way out of line they have reacted positively and And I know the answer to this because we discussed it last week, but I think for anybody who didn't hear that conversation, it would be valuable for them to hear it now. Do you have confidence that if action is taken to educate the EU politicians that proof of work could be saved in the EU? Yeah, I think we have all actually chances that we can protect proof of work. And the way how we do it through submissions, through face-to-face meetings.

So what kind of submission, for example, we've done to FinCEN. We collected testimonials of all human rights defenders and basically met with the treasurer, met with the State Department and explained them. Of course, you can have some ground to say that this instrument can be used by criminals. But please take into consideration that enormous amount of people financially excluded in most of countries that are authoritarian states, we have no other tools and we need to have mutual language towards to technology. And we provided all set of recommendations, including actually travel rule reform and other things which I already mentioned during our discussion, what has to be changed. This is the first things. The second thing we want to do the same, what we've done, for example, providing testimonials of Bitcoin and miners, Bitcoin miners, sorry, human rights defenders and Bitcoin miners to EU institutions. We need to do the same in US. So they also know who are and what is exactly social impact for Bitcoin mining, why it's so important, because they have no, they don't see difference between proof of stake and proof of work.

This is something what not enough to be said just in podcast, but it has to be written in a language understandable for regulators, which they afterwards could refer as a personal testimonials, witnesses, statements of those who actually and users of Bitcoin, those who benefit from proof of work. And these testimonials, everyone who is listening to this podcast from where no matter where you are from, please reach us out and we will help you to shape these testimonials in a framework understandable for regulators. and it's one more step to defend human rights and proof of work actually in institutions. And it's doable. It's absolutely doable because we heard it many times. Bring us voices of minors. We're ready to hear them.

So we have this will. We are very positive on this. Of course, it doesn't matter that there are no bad actors. There are bad actors because this false narrative exists. Someone created them, right? But if we don't try to combat them, if we don't dismiss them, they will be the only one in this area. And the third thing, we need to have capacity. We need as a non-governmental organization, non-profit organization to have support, any kind of support, volunteers, financial support, whatever. we happy to cooperate and be a platform for voices as we always been for 15 years to EU and US

regulators and defend the only tool we have for financial freedom right now yeah and I just would like to add that we hear it a lot that there's nothing can be done we don't trust politicians You know, politicians are cruel. Politics is dirty. And for us, it's very frustrating to hear that in the US and in the European Union, because we believe this is you have all the instruments. You really have to get engaged into activism. And, you know, there are certain forms of activism. And for some reason, for a lot of people, it created some kind of negative connotation. But it's something that this is how you can directly affect the policies. If you are quiet, why you should think that the government should act in your best interest? You have to show that you are a citizen, you are a voter, you have a position, you organize yourself, and you bring all these issues to the table of the regulators. And we really, we have activists dying to have that, literally dying, right? We just had this horrible tragedy with Navalny in Russia dying, being killed in prison.

And we have activists, opposition politicians in prisons all over the world. Just to have, and they're all fighting to have a right to kind of influence the policies of their countries. And you have that right. It's already right given to you by the constitution and existing laws. And for some reason, you prefer to ignore it and just not do much. Please, guys, wake up. We have a chance. We have a really serious fighting chance.

And we have to defend this technology. This technology that it's not only technologies that bringing money to you, but this is technology that saves lives. and that's why we're willing to fight we have the skin in the game so we want you to join our fight what is your hope in the long run if bitcoin succeeds let's say we're successful at defending proof of work at defending the right to hold your own keys and to transact as privately as possible what does the world look like in your mind on the other side of successes against these encroachments from the state? My success that no one's personal financial data

would not be able to use to torture people, to kidnap. That one day I would not be wake up like I was wake up in 2018 by Bota saying that her brother was taken as a hostage because of weaponization of my and her banking data by three regimes. I hope it will never ever happen to anyone. and we would be able to manage our financial freedoms.

We would have decentralized financial tool. I hope that people will understand that money responsibility, it's also knowledge that you should eliminate around yourself, any financial literacy. And this is something your responsibility, not someone has to do it. If you enjoy financial freedom,

if you enjoy any kind of freedom, that means that someone did this job centuries or maybe years ago and we right now doing the same in our countries and european union and the u.s it's a safe countries for us and bitcoin is the only instrument for us and that's why we defend it here yeah and we will be able like for me with this instrument and this is something that bitcoin will go mainstream right which is very important for us because then it will become an instrument for the civil society and so the civil society will be able to raise financing to finance a position in the countries where the banking system and basically

crypto service asset providers as well they're just instruments of law enforcement of those countries right and they spy on people rather than being neutral institutions so uh we believe that we believe in in uh bitcoin we believe in its power and uh we believe that the civil society around the world should adopt it let's dive into that example of the government using your banking information to kidnap your brother but what like just to give an example a concrete example of how this happens what happened a concrete example is that um i i live in belgium i have a political asylum there kazakhstan because the work i was doing defending political prisoners and uh politically uh persecuted people and victims of torture they

were constantly attacking me they tried to extradite me twice from belgium it didn't work So they tried to kidnap me from Belgium and three people were actually sentenced in Belgium, two Germans and one Russian, thanks to the Belgium federal police. But it didn't work. So what the government of Kazakhstan did, they sent a request, it's called a mutual legal assistance request, request for the information. And they got my banking data. And banking data, what is like think about what you have on your bank statement you have all the information and you have all your contacts basically right and they really can figure out who is your doctor where you go um like where you stay if you travel this is and and they can figure out you even your

family contacts because because of their transfers right and they looked at my bank account and they realized that um that the way how they uh they realized that i have a weak point and this is my family in kazakhstan and uh my brother my older brother my parents lived there at that time and my older brother and uh one day they just came arrested my brother and accused him in money laundering which is like was absolutely baseless and um then they they said that we go um we're be going to release you if you make your sister to go back to kazakhstan and my brother refused and he was tortured for two months and only the yeah it's only because of interference of the western politicians the members of the european parliament uh members of the senate

and congress uh in the end of the day my brother was released and he managed to leave the country but basically that's that's how it works that's how uh the abuse of anti-money laundering regulation is happening and it's insane i'm sorry i had to go through that number one but it's just insane to me and this is probably why i don't like engaging in politics it's because everything they the government does i'm a big free markets anti-government i think the government makes everything worse they print money and throw it at things that don't make sense they write these draconian laws and as it pertains to kyc aml like since 1971 i believe when the bank secrecy act here in the united states i think is the core of a lot of these problems that exist

in the world of data collection for financial transactions stems from that law and everything since then has just gotten worse and despite the fact that all the kyc aml regulation all the travel rule regulation um in a hyper digitalized world has only gotten more and more stringent their ability to actually stop crime and money laundering has gotten worse and worse i think something like 0.1 percent of global money laundering is prevented by kyc aml regulations and compliance actually catching people that are laundering money it's completely ineffective and as you just explained like collecting this data and holding it insecurely and holding it in a way where despotic authoritarian governments can request that information at a moment's notice

and you have to deliver it due to the information sharing that comes with complying with the travel rule like you can you just put a lot of people in harm's way and there's this obsession with personal identifying information collection that the governments have that is completely counterproductive to the goals that they're claiming they want to achieve which is reducing financial harm and they're actually increasing physical harm by trying to reduce the financial crimes which it's just like all right guys this obviously isn't working like you have to figure out a better way become better police and investigators to stop actual crime you don't throw the baby out with the bath water and just do a wide swath mass surveillance of everybody

and put everybody at risk like that's the point we're getting to and despite the failure of these policies to actually stop the crimes are claiming they want to stop they keep doubling tripling quadrupling down to the point where they want a digital id which is just going to make things much worse it's coming it's coming uh digital id is coming cbdc is coming and it's actually you will be surprised how it's uh very much welcomed and embraced by authoritarian countries which gives you a little bit information how it's going to be misused and again unless we say something unless we resist unless we limit um the ability of the government to implement those policies nothing will change sorry martin no this is life it's you can hate the government as much

as you want but this is the existing evil right it's necessary evil and it's very easy to hate it when you you enjoy certain security right you enjoy protection of the uh of your property rights but in a lot of countries people don't enjoy that they don't have this privilege so you're lucky and you have a lot of other privileges you should use them to defend your rights yeah exactly you cannot do safely even this kind of discussion in authoritarian states we just all will be killed or will be put in prison, or will be tortured or sentenced for many years, you know, our families will be taken as hostages. The difference between authoritarian states and democracies, no matter how we love them or not, or hate them, that we have tools and we can operate safely, like relatively

safely, of course, there is always certain anyways, backfire. But anyways, it says, I can conduct advocacy and have this open dialogue with regulators and legislators can criticize them saying that guys your regulation is killing me please help me please actually introduce my recommendations and they're doing it while for example in authoritarian states i would not even able to share posts on facebook or like this kind of information this is enough to basically eliminate me and this is the reality so it's about our choice just to complain or just to take this power what you have because because you are citizen of you because you are citizen of US Canada UK and other democracies and actually say hi guys you represent my interest and I'm not

agree with you actually I want to use Bitcoin as a legitimate instrument you don't understand what is proof of work what is Peter cooking transactions what is social good for it listen to me and they listen to you and this is your power and going back to what you said earlier about narrative being very powerful that's one thing I think bitcoiners have gotten wise on particularly in the last five to six years is you got to tell better stories and it's very important in this information battle that we're in because at the end of the day this is really what we're engaged in is an information warfare for the hearts and minds of the individuals who will either step up to defend their rights or let the government and the regulators run over them and that's why i think

the active the activism that you two are engaged in is extremely powerful because it's somewhat of an ironclad narrative like bitcoin literally saves lives and protects people from authoritarian governments and i think that's something as an industry we've gotten better at but really need to perfect is this narrative to the masses which is an optimistic future a future of abundance a future of equality of opportunity equality of access equality of being able to attain a monetary good that is not debased and will preserve your purchasing power over time there's very good optimistic lines that we can run with that paint a very optimistic future with Bitcoin at the center of it, whether it's the open source network, the scarce money supply, or the integration of

the mining industry with the energy sector, making it more robust. So more people can have access to more reliable, cheaper energy at the end of the day. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And just one little thing i would like to add it's please please don't paint all the politicians with one black paint you know there are a lot of people that really truly believe in human rights that truly believe in financial freedoms that truly believe in economic freedoms that try to limit the like in fighting uh against um you know kind of growing interference of the state you have to find them and you have to help those people because you kind of you as a power that's gonna feed them uh you have we have all the data that we need on our side we just really have to

bring it uh this data to the right people and that will be their weapon and they will be fighting for us as well yeah we can't have alex deviers uh the the dutch central bank minion in his terribly written paper for the dig economist or whatever it's called we succeed to have changes in one of the most i would say um black box organization interpol so it's organization which unites all ministers of interiors of the world of course most of the The Ministry of Interior of the world is authoritarian. But nevertheless, we fight for reform. And actually, again, I would say that abuses of this important police instrument was thanks to actually open doors from the anti-money laundering, anti-terrorism regulation.

So this is the first stage how all politically motivated accusations happening on this basis. And then police institutions, banking data is easily given to hands-off dictators. So we succeed to the reform of this institution. So we strongly believe that we can do changes also there. Everyone was laughing at us saying, Oi, girls, you're going to change us. You see in this room only privileged ministries from all of this dictatorship. Do you think they will listen to you?

But we luckily had voices and support of legislators from democratic countries who, as Bota said, really believe in human rights. And we did it. We did it. It's fact. So right now, you have clear procedure how to defend your rights, not to be in this black box. And even if you became a victim of abuse of interval, you have clear procedures how to remove yourself from there. And even if you demand compensation, we have to do the same with abuses of anti manual regulation, we have

do the same with protecting labeling bitcoin with any kind of these false accusations yeah maybe these politicians that i'm talking bad about that want to do not bad things necessarily but want more control maybe they depend on the complacency of the average joe of the common man to just sit there like oh it's fine to be like hey if they're not going to do anything we're just going to take these rights i think that's a big problem we have here in the west specifically the united states is the populace here has become a bit complacent literally fat a bit dumber complacent resting on our laurels that we just sit a lot of people just sit by and get pushed around and they'll complain on social media but really don't do anything at the end of the day that's

one of the biggest killers of freedom is apathy complacency Yes. And as a person who was once on the Interpol Most Wanted list. You should take pride in that. That's pretty badass. I confirm everything what Luda just said. But it happens to many of us because this is, you know, people don't realize how the Interpol works as a billeting board, right? And any authoritarian regime and dictatorship can just put your name and voila. You're wanted by everyone. It was the kind of institution that was easily, easily abused. But we changed the narrative.

And so we can do the same with Bitcoin. Even more, you complain about democracies, right? So I had this case, one of three countries which actually abused my rights and again abused anti-money laundering, anti-terrorism regulation. It was Poland. And, you know, Poland is a member of European Union, right? um it gets really strongly to the side of authoritarian regimes the same like hungary right now um but in like six years they were classified me as a threat to national security

i'm not joking like special services of poland classified me as a threat to national security with no ground and i was banned to enter eu for two weeks um until the moment when parliaments of Germany, Belgium, France, and many other institutions, President Macron, President of Germany, stand on my rights, also former Prime Minister of Belgium. And they granted me, while I was a threat to national security in Poland, national interest in their countries. And we succeed to change narrative. We succeed to actually expose how authoritarian regimes or democracies which started to abuse their power able to manipulate uh you know the threat to national security accusations towards to critical critical critics critical people like me and we

change it so now everyone who is treated in the same way like me they have a number of protection tools they have remedies and they can easily defend their rights and i'm not only uh defended rights of myself i actually together with my team established a mechanism which was adopted and supported by many human rights legislators and regulators in the eu so it's again one more example that everything is doable and we have a lot of tools in our hands but we need not just to complain in social media we need to come to meet with them and say this is my proposals this is my argumentation and if you are speaking with argumentation you going to defend your position we proved it so many times and we're happy to do it to actually defend bitcoin

unfortunately we cannot do uh all of those things without help we need uh we need the community behind us and we really need people to get engaged because to do this type of changes you need a lot a lot of participations uh from basically not only from activities that part you know uh we know how to speak with the activists and and activists are ready to fight but we need uh help from uh bitcoin miners from uh industry experts that will come and meet with the regulators meet with the politicians and uh be willing to provide their testimonies and then we can do other things yeah you guys are pretty badass interpool is most wanted fighting back against all these governments i was removed from the database when

interpol realized that it was uh politically motivated and i'm also not a threat to national security anymore i'm not classified like this anymore and they don't have to apologize you guys have a lot of stories to tell this is going to be it's going to be fun decades from now when we look back bitcoin has succeeded we've uh we've rooted out a lot of the evil in the world and uh it was hey yeah i was uh i was on the interpol most wanted list i can't say that i'm here in america they have not come anywhere close to that list it's pretty badass do you guys i mean it's pretty heavy everything you're working on putting yourself in the crosshairs of a lot of very powerful governments around the world what keeps you going how does uh the stress how do you not

succumb to the stress of all the things that you do yeah sometimes it can be extremely extremely difficult especially uh you know it's not the difficult part is not dealing with the democratic regulators or members of the parliament the difficult part like for me the most difficult part when we work on the cases of torture that probably the most difficult emotionally draining and we have a lot of unfortunately we have a lot of experience of working in those cases and um you know sometimes we need even professional help like therapies and stuff because it's it's very hard you you know it takes time for a person to start talking for a victim of torture and you You have to go with him through like step by step, step by step to kind of get all the

information on paper. It's extremely painful and then it haunts you for a long time. But I think we do it because we really, you kind of, you feel this internal gratification. You understand why it's important. You see how you change your life. You see how you change your life, not only of that person, but that person's family members. have each other's support. That is very important from our community of activists. We never work on any issues alone. We always have a group of people, a coalition. So we work on

this Bitcoin advocacy issue as a coalition. But on other subjects, we work as different coalitions as well. So that helps, kind of a network. exactly in my case um i used to have experience as a teenager how it's so important that there are people defending ready to come in to defend uh your family member who is taken as a hostage because of not agreeing paid for example corrupt deals or for criticizing the government and we see this light in the tunnel and someone said yeah no worries you can actually meet your brother in hospital he's back from being taken hostage and i think the most difficult for all of these cases when our relative suffers and i wanted to be since the time um this kind of hope just to other people

who need this help um and actually to provide this help so i think this is something no matter what's happened with me i try to actually um to overcome it it's easier when it's something happened with me actually because i also distanced myself from my case uh it's not easy it's just like easier when your relatives taken as a hostage i think water will agree with me that you can actually as person responsible for your activity overcome difficulties you know what kind of mechanism you have but you feel completely like paralyzed sometimes when your family members your close people taken as a hostage and you need to release you need to do all efforts this is i think the most difficult yeah yeah again i can't imagine that i mean

being an american not having to really put myself out there to that extent i mean yes i have a podcast and a newsletter and website where we do talk bad about the government their policies and all that and luckily despite whether or not i believe america is as free as it maybe should be i do have the ability to do this without having to worry about any of that so it is something that i and certainly many other americans definitely take for granted and it's really grounding to speak with you too and learn more about your experiences because it is insane that people have to go through this on a daily basis all throughout the world yes and most of the countries are authoritarian so what are you doing actually i would not say

that it's absolutely uh you know it's it's important work because you you criticize you see you have a right to criticize and you exercise in your right now do one step more actually try to extract from those who represent your interest even if you don't like them that they follow actually your recommendations and you can do it. You have all instruments in your hands and we're happy to actually assist and be this platform,

say who is actually pro-human rights because we work with them for over 15 years and we're happy to do it both in US and EU. And I'm sure that we can do beautiful things together. I agree. We're going to win. We have to. We don't have other chance.

We have to win. And with that in mind, is there anything we didn't touch on that we should touch on before we wrap up any information anything is pertinent that anybody listening to this has access to any calls to action i mean call to action support us and remember guys everyone who is developing more and more accessible freedom tools financial freedom tools for such people like us we love you really we love you and we want you to actually support us as much as possible bring your old technologies we need to educate as much as possible people we want to define proof of work

we know how to do it let's do it together give us your testimonials give us your support and let's do it together and when you say that uh bitcoin is an instrument of freedom remember us it is an instrument of freedom and really we need you your help to defend this instrument yeah let's do it freaks we're going to link to both your profiles and the show notes a link to your website and get active freaks whether it's in the eu because a global audience any of you eu freaks listening to this right now let's get active yes and here in the united states um send your submissions and push back yeah i think the finsen the finsen comments that went through last month uh yet to be determined whether or not they convinced the government to to back

off of what the treasury would like to do but we shall see i think it was very powerful let's keep doing it engage where it makes sense and just bring that's the thing we have the data on our side we have the truth on our side yeah yeah we need to bring that data yes so and one last thing if you are in Madeira and if you are BTC Prague conference reach us out we happy to meet you guys in life and I think more people from US has to come to you

because otherwise we have limited capacity to come to US so we'd love to meet you in person get these testimonials we will do meetings last time we did in Prague also meetings in the parliament we will try to organize things also this time so

we would love to do it reach out let's go alright Bota Luda thank you for your time thank you for doing

what you're doing thank you thank you keep crushing it peace and love freaks tiki