TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #492: Open Source AI Is Winning with NVK

Episode Date: March 20, 2024

Marty sits down with NVK to discuss Coinkite, AI, tradeoffs in bitcoin, and more. NVK on Twitter: https://twitter.com/nvk 0:00 - Intro 5:05 - Signing devices and the Coldcard Q 13:13 - ETFs vs self custody 17:38 - SIM swaps and AI fakes 23:59 - Meatspace KYC 26:55 - AI tools, Unleashed.chat 32:04 - AI and bitcoin for businesses 42:18 - How AI will impact the world 50:14 - Gradually, Then Suddenly 50:52 - What will our children need to know? 55:10 - Covenants 1:03:10 - Tradeoffs of bitcoin scaling layers 1:13:45 - Bitcoin’s multiple value props 1:17:29 - Nostr 1:25:26 - Pace of adoption 1:36:44 - Keynesian lies 1:40:09 - Commie Canada 1:50:25 - We’re winning because they can’t meme 1:55:13 - Coinkite stuff Shoutout to our sponsors: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠River⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Unchained⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Zaprite⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Bitcoin Talent Co⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Gradually, Then Suddenly⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TFTC Merch is Available: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shop Now⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join the TFTC Movement: Main ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YT Channel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Clips ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YT Channel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Marty Bent: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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So it's all acting like safe haven. I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor. I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin. If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. International man of mystery. King of hardware. nvk welcome back to the show hey thanks thanks for the intro

that was funny you've got uh you've got way more hardware behind you than you did last time you were on the show yeah i know it's i need to organize the the back wall here it's like it's starting to and i took some stuff off it's starting to look a little uh a little bit cluttery orderly it's i mean as somebody who hoards coin kite hardware i understand it's hard man you know you make things and especially like in between prototypes and things like you want to keep them but but then you know we only ship like five percent of the stuff we come up with right so like the shop is like really full of stuff it's bad well you need to keep one of each for posterity for museum absolutely yeah that's the one thing that was

the one cool thing when i went and interviewed jack at squares offices in san francisco jesus five six years ago now at this point they had a wall of the iterations of their hardware the square point of sale system which is really cool to see yeah no they yeah they have like they have a good team there they still don't understand screens but they have a good team there i mean i don't of docs conversations but uh now we had uh we had nick from big key he was at the takeover last week and matt and i were talking to him about the big key that was the big point of contention obviously matt was like where's the screen why do we need a screen on these devices you know uh you have to check the transaction right no i mean i've i've talked to jack enough about this like

given him enough grief about it it's uh they're going after a different market like their market is not bitcoiners their market is like new people you know like that the normies out there they want to sort of like you know get a device that they just sort of touch their phone with and then they put it away and then you know they have this sort of quasi custodial experience what are what are the trade-offs because i we talked about this on rabbit hole recap last week obviously big bit key went on sale last week or the week before so we had to cover it on rabbit hole recap i think i think we've discussed this before i think the last time you were here in person if anything it's just really cool to see the design landscape of self-custody bitcoin

expanding yeah i mean i think it's cool like i want to see different stuff right like i don't want to see just more of the same stuff uh you know we made the first one that had like lots of buttons and like different secure elements and like a bunch of like different stuff and then you know and then we started seeing just a bunch of more of the same and then finally we're starting to see things that are trying to do different things in different ways so that we have more options right you know you have uh you know that little frost device that one attaches to the other um you have the the alexis one where they're trying to power the phone nfc and sort of like doing their own thing it's cool it's cool and bit key doing their their own sort of like

uh uh different experience as well like that that's what we need because if we don't explore different ways of doing self-custody with hardware then we don't get anywhere oh with that in mind where are we right now are you happy with where we are from a bitcoin i'm pretty happy man like you know it's quite remarkable that with 150 dollars of a cold card you you you can be more secure with your you know geronational wealth than like a bank it's insane when you think about it i mean you know like we're building a device for 150 bucks that like could beat most state actors right like it's quite a fee um and And the device respects all the Bitcoin sort of like the Bitcoin sort of direction, right?

Which is you have this thing that uses a primitive that you can just like transport to a alternative device and still works, right? So you're not captured to our company. You're not captured to our brand if we disappear tomorrow to continue on, right? that that's that's that's winning um i i think like in general in bitcoin we're we're doing very well uh on on how things are i would agree and just to note your mic switched again so if you want to toggle that while you toggle that i will say i mean we were chatting last week i've been testing out the q which i think is an incredible device for many reasons you have a full keyboard the battery pack

I think is the biggest upgrade for me personally as a user like not having to be six feet away from a wall to generate private public key pairs and then the NFC aspect of it as well like being able to pair it with a nunchuck

watch only wallet or just use nunchuck as a vehicle to spend from it with NFC I think it's an incredible user experience NFC is something I think we need to lean more into because it's just a way better experience. Yeah, I mean, yeah, the QNFC is awesome.

You know, we've learned a few lessons from the Mark IV and we've sourced a super high quality antenna and sort of placed it well. And like, you know, to do NFC, right, there's like a bunch of like little sort of moving parts. and I think it's quite good on the queue and

I mean like the NFC experience is really awesome for phone first people I think it's a much better sort of direction than QR codes are and I think we're going to see more of that there is like I think

two or three NFC devices in the market more coming and And it's a lot cheaper, too, to make, right? So, like, you know, we added a camera to the queue. That adds cost to the bomb, right? It's a very good QR scanner on the queue. It does the job better than any other hardware wallet,

but I still don't think it's the best direction for Bitcoin self-custody in terms of, like, economics of devices and user experience. But, you know, like, we are the companies in the building up, and we're going to be the companies in the transition, right, towards, like, something else that's going to be much better. And you can't skip that part, right? Do you remember with, like, smartphones where, like, so first it was just phones, right?

We had, like, a million devices of options for flip phones or the bar soap phones. And then you had, like, a million options for smartphones, right? and and and they all had different designs and all kinds of things and we had to experiment and then apple invented the the touch display uh of capacitance that actually works right and then everything became exactly what an iphone is right but it took like 20 years to get there you can say 30 40 depending on where you want to start but you know at least 20 years of of experimenting and improving on on the smartphone uh to get somewhere so you know that happened to

them that happened to computers that happened to everything you just you need to work that process through because we have something that is fairly new right like custody in bitcoin is such a new thing it's such a new thing but it's it's coming out of favor we have the etfs now we don't need Acusti or Bitcoin anymore. ETFs are here. Why do you even run your company anymore? We don't need it. Right. I mean, the ETFs are great. I really don't have a problem with it. I legit think it's fantastic. I mean, any way in which we take all the economic value from the traditional sort of uh from the cantillionaires the best right so if the etf is how we get some of that fantastic um but but here's the thing right i mean if if most of the bitcoin is not outside capturable

instruments uh you know the the bitcoin in the bitcoin etf could go to zero so uh you know govern yourself accordingly um i think it's it's great to have etfs i think it's fantastic that we have all these products that can be financialized and people can go gamble in wall street with uh but you know self-custody is still how you know bitcoin remains uncapable so i think people get it um you know i think it's uh it's so far i mean what is it like 90 of all the bitcoin is outside of the financial system so you know it's working do you worry that people get complacent I don't have worries, man. I don't have worries. That's good. I just needed that.

I really don't. The incentives are really good to push people in these different directions, right? Maybe Russia ends up with a huge pie of Bitcoin, and they're not going to put an American ETF, right? So you have the flag theory stuff. You have the selfish actor incentives. you know like it's all there so it's very hard for me to be worried about like things sort of like going in this sort of like dark directions yeah i would agree i'm uh under the impression

that most things are good for bitcoin the one thing that has been annoying for me personally is this idea that self-custody is impossible um or it's just a barrier too high for most people something we've talked a lot about on this show and on rabbit hole recap in years past it's like it's really not that hard like yes it does take some personal responsibility to produce and then secure a 12 or 24 word private key but i don't think it's as hard as the gen x slash boomers telling people just buy the etf don't self-custody your bitcoin i mean this all comes from like a completely like sort of absurd sort of reference like you know first of all you know anybody who's not a boomer so like they probably don't even have a trading accounts to buy an etf let's start from

the premise right like all the gen the gens the gen z and then below don't have trading accounts right i mean they can maybe buy through like you know those those apps the robin hoods or whatever but they don't like them because they they rugged uh gamestop right so and then like think about it this way like if you were to walk to a bank right to to open a bank account it's a pain in the ass too right so um that requires some knowledge right like applying for credit on something like requires some knowledge it takes time it's not immediate and then when you want to buy your favorite thing on the internet as a younger person you are not allowed to um so i think when people just go and they buy a quote card and they take five minutes to just like press

the buttons and follow the the very basic steps right it's very possible for them to do it and and you know what if they don't want to put it in steel to start well they just put it on the encrypted micro sd card and you know put it somewhere else to start right is that like terrible yes but that is like not as bad as like having coins that you don't so yeah you know put on steel but start somewhere yeah but i heard you can get sim swapped if you hold it on the cold card yeah i mean you know every cycle we have the parachute uh experts there's always somebody who's gonna be the the new raul paul or something like that yeah what are you gonna do with those guys I mean, they want to, I really think they're just trolling us to get more attention.

Like, it can't be serious. It can't be that stupid. No. And it's incredibly hilarious and somewhat ironic because, and you were tweeting about this this morning. I mean, the attacks that can be levied on individuals holding their Bitcoin, let's just say on an exchange particularly, are pretty pronounced and only getting more pronounced throughout time. sim swap being one of them and i actually had a friend who got sim swapped a couple of weeks ago he reached out and called me after he got control of his phone number back and said thank you because i convinced him to move his bitcoin off off an exchange and into a multi-sig setup um and with

unchained and he was very happy that i told him to do that and then you were tweeting about it this morning a lot of these exchanges particularly if you have a lot of bitcoin on them uh they're security protocol dictates hey we need to do a video call now with ai uh face generation technology i i mean this this this video requirement uh so some of the some of the companies is optional right like you set the options uh some of them are required over a certain amount i mean this is terrible in so many ways um so first you know you you're assuming that the video is the person there right now we know that like with enough effort somebody can probably fake that out uh and if they can't quality yet they're gonna soon um and then you as a company say for example

in chain london casa whatever are gonna have a video of somebody claiming that and not being them and you're gonna get sued for the coins that got taken uh because they you know the security protocol was followed. And then you are going to record that video and keep it because you want to keep it for your liability reasons, right? And then that video is going to be stolen from you. Bad guys are going to know who has Bitcoin of certain amounts and is going to go kidnap their families so they can get it too. Because you're going to lose that personal information, right? I mean, it's going to happen 100%. Every company is going to get hacked. It's a matter of time so you know i i think i think all these companies have the like good-hearted

intentions uh with with this video stuff but i think it's extremely misguided and and i think it doesn't end well uh especially if you're forcing people into doing that i think it's so absurd um i i think this is gonna end up just getting litigated and and people are gonna lose a lot of money and uh or people are going to get kidnapped and then you're going to be damages on top of losing all the money and these companies are going to look really bad and then they'll stop doing video why i i hope some are more forward thinking than that having had conversations with some of them i know they're thinking about it i mean that was literally the first question i ever asked drew bansal they came and gave a demo in new york on their their multisig vaults

the first time they launched them i put 2018 2017 yeah it was like 2018 2019 i think now it was like the dickhead in the room like um ai deep fakes they're beginning it was like before they were even as mature as they are now but had the intuition back then like you can't do video verification because these deep fakes are coming and i mean it's good enough now right and remember Part of the video authentication stuff is so that if the person is under distress, let's say you have secret words that you have to say in video, which most of these companies don't do. But let's say that they did that. You can be beaten up on the side of the computer giving them the words, and then they use an AI model to do the video with the secret words, and now all checks. So, it's so, so hopeless that way.

Like, you know, with AI now, there's really just two things that you can't fake, which is private key, public-private key pairs and proof of work, right? So, you know, we have this, the top signer, you know, it's been used by a few companies where they're using a second factor authentication. not it uses the bitcoin curve but they're using it just to as a as a thing you have so ubk kind of like a ub key yes but using the bitcoin curve uh which is more respective more respectful in my opinion um and uh you know like it's things like that right so ub stop signers uh extra harder wallets that you can do message signing um you know it could even be a phone call with like special like otp right uh since since you were assuming that the voice or video is fake anyways i mean the medium matters less right so you know if you still want to do a phone call

at least you're not running the risk of having your face you know talking about the amount of bitcoin you're taking out um it's safer uh you know to have like a phone call where you're doing paper ltp for people that don't know what tp is it's a one-time password and you essentially have like a sheet of paper that you fold in half and then you get specific numbers uh banks used to do that for large transactions um and uh and then you you at least have this interaction over phone so it's a second channel uh you gave some pins you gave some special words uh you signed something and then the money comes out right like wow they do the extra signing right but i i really think that the current setups are are important and they're just putting people at risk especially

with the the licking of the video of people talking about their bitcoin that's just asking for kidnap do you think this moves back to meat space where to move bitcoin of larger amounts oh why not somebody in person i mean you know like uh there's been a lot of bitcoin sort of companies i did kyc in person i don't send my any pi documents over digital manners right so i just flew over here just do a photocopy of it keep it in your office cabinet it was kind of funny because one of them the you know years passed and the new team like they lost the information like they probably got shredded because and then they didn't have any information on this account and the account had no name i had nothing on the computer it was just sort of gibberish that was my requirement uh

and and i had to go like again there to to do the kyc again the lengths people will go to keep their privacy but i think this ai stuff is making it very apparent that the need to protect your privacy is only increasing exponentially and it's something that more people are going to learn about because in the world of convenience that we've all grown up in people don't think about it unless you're a hardcore cypherpunk like yourself who thinks like uh i'm not putting my id in this yeah but like yeah let's let's move back to paper like so for example phone carriers in canada uh now they require that you go to an actual store with your government id i think two pieces of id plus like some other crap and special words in order to change your SIM

so people don't get SIM swapped. That would be a great regulation here in the United States as well. And even like with the IDs too, it feels like that whole system is getting de-dust. I mean, that was market demand, by the way. It was not even regulation. It was just, there is nothing like a damages lawsuit to change the way business do business, right?

Yeah. notice how we Jeff Booth get sim swapped recently David Bailey was tweeting that a lot of people are getting sim swapped and the options that are on the market to prevent this the companies that are claiming to

provide a service that is like unsim swappable I mean I think they can do your voice now with like five seconds of audio it's like near perfect voice yeah we're fucked Yeah, no, I mean, and yeah, I mean, the podcasters,

I mean, they can just, wow. I mean, what they can do with the three hours of a hundred episodes of like Bitcoin.review. I mean, it's like brutal. But at least, but then there is the video too, right? I mean, they can just get pictures and stuff. And then when you're having your call with, you know, one of these companies, it's not as elite room.

There's all ways of like lowering the quality of the image and stuff. Anyways, it's a disaster. Yeah. So is AI a net benefit or net positive or net positive or net negative in your mind? Oh, it's an absolute net positive. Like, you know, it's like trying to invent electricity or Bitcoin or whatever just because it has like, you know, some unwanted consequences, right? For example, some people feel sorry for central banks, right? You know, those poor people, what are they going to do once Bitcoin wins?

You know, it's the same for AI. I mean, it's fantastic too. So, you know, I use it a lot. You know, nowadays I just, like, I can suck in repos into Unleashed and sort of, like, analyze code. I can, you know, review documents. I can review accounting stuff. You know, you still need to be a domain expert of the stuff you're reviewing, right?

You can't depend on it because it's kind of like a 20-year-old mathematician genius who's drunk, right? That's the current iteration of AI. So, you know, you need to have your bullshit detector very high, but it is very useful. It can do correlations in a way that you can't as a human. You need a room of 100 people to do it. Yeah.

No, we've been leaning into it here at TFTC. It's extremely powerful if you know how to harness it. I mean, let's talk a little bit more about Unleashed chat. I mean, you spun this up, and it's pretty powerful what you can do. how would you juxtapose it to other products on the market because it seems like you're leaning in to a lot of the open source models and so in your opinion where are these models compared to uh so so the thing is like the current state of the escape is like say like a public open source ai is about like six months behind i will see what open ai launches uh but you know the trend

is that the open stuff is becoming like it's going to become better than the closed stuff which is great um and but the problem right now is to to run anything interesting you need decent infrastructure right and so like you don't want to be melting your laptop to do like very basic um and and i was looking for some place that i could upload like you know company financial information and you know like legal documents and things that that would actually be useful as a company to analyze and go over things and you know when i read the terms of service and open ai i'm like nope i am not uploading my here and uh i uh so i i started running locally and locally was crap so uh you know i started putting together the system where

Where you can do the high quality, proper infrastructure tools with your data, but private. So you have some privacy there in terms of services, you own your data, and we're not going to train the models on your data. We can't even see your data. We're going to have multiple types of models that are open for you to use. And we're going to build the tooling, right, so that you can do it. Because what a lot of people don't know is, like, you know, there is a lot of tooling you have to build on top of the model so the models understand stuff. Because these models don't understand English, right?

Like, they don't understand stuff. They just, they're just, like, mathematical statistical models, right, of things. and you have to essentially vectorize the data and then embed the data into the model and then have the model sort of like understand that thing and then it sounds to you like it's magic right but all that tooling needs to be built and all that tooling is closed so um you know so we built a lot of that and uh so that first of all we could understand nostre right like i wanted to to go and grok twitter but grok is closed and nostre is closed grok i think is now open it's too but but twitter is closed so you can't you can grok twitter really outside of grok

so i'm like hey you know what noster is open so let's grok noster and it works beautifully right you can walk into unleash.chat and say hey what is what is lynn thinking about today right and the thing goes and summarizes where lynn said uh today right uh and it'll be very like much better insight than you get out of like you know uh going on twitter uh there's a lot of that stuff that can be done um and you know there's a lot to do there as well i want to see if we can improve search for uh noster as well so that uh all the noster clients can search better uh yeah just sort of playing around still trying to figure out what to do and you know no kyc in sats feels like it's the future um again that's a funny way of putting it i mean we've been

experimenting it more with the closed source models on rm because the tools that we use to help us on the content side of things only leverage these closed source models but that's one of our goals in 2024 is to transition to something like an unleashed to do all this and that requires us to build the tooling that you mentioned connecting transcription services with chat services and all that but it's there's something there but in terms of what you're doing on like I'm really fascinated to learn more how you're applying it on the business side like you mentioned these legal documents I'm sure put financial statements in it I think that's one of the big problems many people like myself who are running companies have when trying to

approach this problem it's like where do you start and how should you be leveraging this like how can you leverage it in a way that is most efficient will actually drive results from a business perspective i mean it's going to differ for every business right but i think that the hardest part of a business especially a small business right that doesn't have like you know like a room with 50 analysts is trying to understand correlations in your business, right? Like, you know, is the color of this product, you know, affecting, you know, the sales of this product under what period of time and, you know, things like that. And, you know, trying to understand your sales cycles through the year, trying to understand, you know, what your users want. Because a lot of times too,

like you know what users ask is not necessarily what they want uh so trying to understand what people actually want um you know there is like reviewing uh like just contracts reviewing sales documents like you know anywhere you can find an edge and and as you play with it you start to sort of be become better at playing with it as well so it's kind of like learning how to write or learning how to ride a bike, you'll start to understand how to use the tool better because it's kind of a tool. It's not general the way that people describe. So for example, if you go on a leash and you ask some trivia questions, it's not going to do very well. Those models are not full of trivia crap like OpenAI is. They have a lot of mechanical

turkey for that um it you know but but it is a super high performance like you know system for people who are like trying to to do business right like if you're trying to analyze some serious stuff trying to analyze code uh you know you and you know how to ask the questions like these models are very good um and uh yeah it's just you gotta you gotta find you gotta find your method to to the madness yeah it's exciting it's fun to experiment with it i mean i've seen it just on our side on the content side of things the amount of leverage you get for the amount of dollars that you spend is pretty insane unfathomable um i mean yeah you look at some of this uh you know we don't use it we you know johnny does most of the most of the audio editing for uh bitcoin.review but uh

you know like river river fm you know they offer like ai cleanup of the audio and video stuff and and apparently it's very good like you know i've been tempted to pressing the button um but you know it really depends on like the the degree in which you want the editorialization of things um it's getting there i mean like all the ums and ahs that i do i'm sure an ai can take it out it's you know it's not that hard no i've seen i know guy swan uses the audio ai that cuts out ums and likes i need it seven years in i'm still re-listening the podcast like god damn it marty stop saying like and um um it's okay your brain is just taking a pause to think yeah don't don't don't fall for the overly uh some people are just very good and very eloquent

and some people aren't i'm not i don't care you know deal with it don't listen to the pot well i mean you have the excuse english english isn't your first language right so yeah but i still do the same in portuguese too i do the same in spanish it's just you know every brain every person's brain is slightly off right so it's like deal with it but keeping uh on this tip that's something i think we should dive into because i think these tools are powerful we're still in like the discovery phase of how to leverage them as a company but thinking about running a company on a bitcoin standard i know we talk a lot about this at 1031 but it seems apparent that these tools can give you so much leverage that the whole

landscape of running a company particularly vc back company can change this whole idea of growth at all costs go spend as much money as possible hopefully you get a user base and some revenue down the line considering where interest rates are and the maturity of these tools at your fingertips you can make a strong argument that you'd be running a company irresponsibly if you're not leveraging these to help drive returns and revenue in your company oh absolutely right i mean it's it's very similar to say you know you don't you don't want to use a computer Yeah, we don't like computers. You know what I mean? There is no businesses that can do that anymore. Even an artisan now needs either himself a computer or somebody else have a computer

to advertise or to even do his taxes. The government does not accept paper records anymore for audits right it has to be digital so you know i think i think we're gonna get to a point soon where and i mean very soon we're like two three years out uh of of of having you know all your accounting done by by ai right like that like all your bookkeeping done by it already kind of is for small small businesses if you're so a micro business whatever we don't like i don't don't know what this audience consider a small business, but let's say a last $100 million a year business. I guarantee you that most of their receipts and all the bookkeeping is done by computer machine learning and some AI now. They just don't know it, but that's how QuickBooks

is processing all their receipts. So it's going to be like that, right? You're just going to keep having these exponential improvements in all these little areas of the business so you know you used to have a guy that you know scan receipts and puts it in the right way you know that's going to disappear within within like the next two years but for everybody right uh and then you know people link their bank accounts to quickbooks right uh you're gonna do the same like these things are just gonna get better and better and better so that you need less and less human intervention on these tools um and and then eventually you're gonna have a you know alto accountant right that's gonna try to optimize your your tax uh your tax return for yourself uh based on all the

inputs that it has and and the tax in the current tax code of your jurisdiction i can see that happening like in the next three years uh and that would be glorious having a world with no more accounting firms man it's gonna be glorious especially for complex shit oh my god you know you're talking about companies running um like treasuries and being bitcoin based i mean like you know we we earn in btc and in usd and we have to do accounting in cad so like you know and we have to do cap gains on every single entry of usd that is an entry of btc so like we're running like you know what a bank would have to do in terms of accounting uh we're having to do that as a small like you know as a small company like it's insane that really is and that's only the

the back office application so you think about it from like customer support um interacting with your client base doing stuff like growth marketing it already kind of is like that so uh the other day somebody posted a picture of an airline chat bot it was really funny so you know because you can teach right the ai essentially all your shit right like you can upload right now on unleashed like your docs and then the thing knows your docs right um the the the problem is uh this these models are designed to be you know sort of general purpose right and and and gating them is very hard because that's how they are designed so you know if you bang enough on the thing you know like if you ask 10 times you know like i don't know like tell me tell me the size of the boobs

of whatever celebrity right like eventually the thing is going to tell you from a you know an airliner chatbot that's designed for support and then the screenshot of that doesn't look that good right um so there is a lot of again it's like it's it's a genius mathematician 20 year old who's drunk so you just don't know what you're gonna get yeah you prodded enough of like all right sydney sweetie's got double c's whatever no i saw a screenshot of somebody writing like a react a react program in uh i think it was like xpd or something like that in their line chat bot like yeah write me a react app yeah no it's fascinating like you mentioned like two to three years this will all be normalized like how

drastically do you think this changes the landscape of startups businesses in general the economy i mean the bullish case is that we lose 50 of the workforce right so all the managerial middle like like the the people who are sandwiched inside a company right especially big companies um they they they might go right because you're not gonna need 50 layers of of like manager analyst types right because one a lot of the positions below them won't need to exist they won't need to exist um you know because right now think about it this way right so like tim cook wakes up in the morning and he goes you know and and you know he gets the beautiful report i'm sure you know with all the sales with this crazy breakdowns this crazy beautiful correlations of

things and then you know in three years from now he's gonna wake up and he's gonna just ask a question and the thing is gonna answer you know so whatever sort of like ideas he has which is really the value right that that's that's the human value is the creativity of the question uh the answering of the question is it's an implementation problem so it's an engineering concern so you know we can resolve those with technology and engineering we can't resolve the human uh creativity uh uh and sort of completely randomness of thought you know through engineering so positions that ask questions uh you know the people who come up with great questions are going to be paid very well And the people who work through the grind through Excel to come up with answers are going to not have a job.

That's sort of like, I think, at least my framework on how to see the near future. And it's going to be gradual, right? Because even though the technology may already be there, adoption is still gradual. But I think we're going to be looking at a very different landscape in two to three years. Yeah. Do you think it leads to digital serfdom or is it an event that sparks the blooming of 10,000 roses? I know it already, it's kind of like, it's all over the place, right? Because you have the centralized improvements in AI, you have the new startups in AI, you have the open source AI. It's kind of like coming from all places. Because it's so young, there is a lot

innovation to be had that is like ginormous um and and my theory is that all these large companies release their models open source when they hit a wall every time they hit a wall they go like ah it you know release open source let the crazy kids sort of improve it and then we essentially acquire them for hundreds of millions of dollars and then we improve again and the cycle continues yeah it feels like chat gbt is hitting a wall like just playing around with it recently it's not as accurate or sophisticated as it was only months ago it could be that they're training a new model like and it depends on what right like like each type of question needs like a very different type of of like answer framework type of machinery let's put it this way so um it really depends

like you know is it web search is it like math questions is it you know very specific questions related to time series data or whatever like these things are very different i find that like these models really struggle for example time series data uh and that really impedes my I, the, the, the curiosity that I have with time series data, um, but, you know, working on it, we'll see if we can do anything internally, but we, we don't work on model training, right? Like that's, I mean, a little bit, but it's not what we do on, on unleashed. It's, uh, it's more the tooling around it and, and essentially like, you know, building all the cold that AI needs in order to understand Nostr live, right?

Uh, that, that kind of stuff interests me. the the the giga brain need uh for creating new models and that kind of stuff is like a whole other game yeah that's i mean i think i don't know if you retweeted this or i saw this after seeing your tweet about the deep fakes this morning but it seems like the way it's going which seems like is what you've honed in on on the leash chat is like at scale at maturity the real winners are going to be the people just put a UI on these GPU farms and these models and just hook into them, not necessarily the ones that are making the models. Yeah. But the thing that I think a lot of people miss is that there is

the 50% of the problem is not the models and it's not the GPUs. It's the tooling around it. Because again, these AIs don't understand stuff, right? So you literally have to write Python so that the AI can essentially ask kind of like a question. It's not quite like that, but essentially the AI is using that Python script to go and search like nostrils, right? And then like you have to figure out very clever ways to vectorize that data,

very performant ways of doing that so that the AI, so that it can give it an answer back to the AI, right? And then there is like, for example, a lot of these companies use multi-models. So you have a critical model that reviews the answer of the model before it returns to the user. So you can improve the quality, right, of the answer. And they make all this opaque, so it looks like magic, right? But there is a lot of shit going on in there. There's many, many models working very differently. And that's not

not even to get into the multimodal stuff where you have the images generation image analysis videos and all that other crap so it's very modular on the back end yes it's it's incredibly modular and i think it's going to sprout up a lot of different companies too you're going to have companies that all they specialize on is like vectorizing a certain kind of thing or companies that you know create scripts for you know some like it's just there's like a huge space out there for people to create companies that are more specialized. But first we need all these big players to hit walls on their modules, right?

And then they start sort of outsourcing some of that and that creates this very healthy sort of collection of companies that contribute to the solution. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not afraid of it. I'm not afraid of AGI. I don't think it's going to kill us.

I think it's just going to make us better. Yeah, I mean, it is what it is. Could humans maybe be less fat for not having cities? Yes. But cities also produce hospitals and produce airplanes. And then if you can afford to not live in the city and have the city-made things, that's even better, right? These things are very relative in that sense, right? You need the things that are not necessarily the best for humans in order to create human things. You know, without Bangladesh, you wouldn't have clothing for, you know, ten dollars. Yeah, it's very true. Without cheap compute, that's pretty high leverage. You won't have

the cool things that we can build today. Yeah, it's going to be fascinating. Quick break here, freaks. This rip is brought to you by Gradually Then Suddenly, a framework for understanding Bitcoin as money by Parker Lewis. I wrote the forward to the book. I'm honored to have done so because it's the best zero-to-one primer if you're looking for a logical explanation of why Bitcoin obsoletes all other money. Buy one for yourself and maybe a few for your friends. Go to thesafehouse.com slash gradually. That's thesafehouse.com, safe spelled S-A-I-F, thesafehouse.com slash gradually.

Use the promo code TFTC for $5 off at checkout. Buy it now, freaks. The price of Bitcoin is going up. You need to understand it. This is the best zero-to-one primer. back to the show be curious how you think about this in the context of children like i'm looking at my two young boys like four and two almost it's like fuck what's the world gonna look like for you what should i teach you now that would actually give you some leverage in the future

yeah i think about this a lot right i have like a four almost four and almost six right um and uh you know we are no screen family right so like they they don't have they don't watch videos and stuff you know i just started doing star wars now where it's like i've been playing the videos that the movie with them on the weekend just like one movie like that's all they watched in terms of screens all week um you know last summer there was no screens whatsoever i forgot them in the city uh i you know i i yeah no i'm pretty brutal with this stuff i don't want them around screens um and uh but but you know like how do i give them an edge right like how do i give them access to like being you know it's true like play right it's like play with lego and you

know as soon as i find it's the right time i don't know what that's going to be i want them to you know maybe learn a language with like an ai model on a phone right but it's going to be like a very sort of narrow use of that phone um i i don't want them on social media uh i don't think it's healthy for humans and as i can tell for my mental health being exposed to twitter you know or other things like that i'm kidding like i'm fine but i also grew up with all this shit so it didn't like fuck up my brain as a kid right like as an adult coming in into twitter i don't think it's as harmful as you know like say like a kid like having their brain develop alongside twitter right so i i don't want them exposed to these things and and uh and i and i'm i kind of want them to grow

up outside of cities there were some studies done it was actually quite interesting uh on like kids they were above the norm in terms of like intelligence and and sort of building capacity and creativity and there were farm kids sort of like did the best you know and it's kind of fascinating right because when you think about farm kids especially when like you know 20 years ago um you know they were the kids exposed to least amount of technology least amount of people least amount of cultures uh and yet they were the most creative and and i think it's just like giving kids a space in which they don't have to perform they don't have to um um they they're just like they don't have to have anything to do like they're literally like i want

them to get bored and and from boredomness they learn how to be alone with their brains and sort of like and and be capable of like creating things to make themselves less bored right a lot of human invention came from people being bored so anyways like i don't know if that's the right answer that's what i'm running with i mean the theory of gravity was isaac newton sitting under a tree i'm just getting hit with an apple sitting there there you go how did this happen no it was also that shit crazy yeah we're very similar that shit crazy where we say we we try to limit screens like a little bit on the weekends if that and it's been fun uh watching my oldest son play with magnet tiles that's usually what we do yeah at the end of the day

like watching what he builds without any instruction like holy i don't think i could even build that so like my kids are not used to videos right as much so like i i gave them tablets in the airplane because it's either they take down the flight and they will take down the airplane like they they are feral right or i give them some videos right like that's where i draw the line right like not die in an airplane so um they they can't get it off like you can see the addiction because they're not used to seeing it either like you can't i it's it's so hard to peel off of their eyes um it's pretty amazing yeah i mean on the same tip particularly social media corrupting people's brains how do you think it's affecting bitcoin development um and what is your

what are your broader thoughts on bitcoin development obviously we have covenant wars going on not wars but a lot of discussion around covenants um ordinals inscriptions a big thing what are your what are your thoughts on excuse me uh the intersection of social media and bitcoin development and just more broadly do we need covenants thoughts and ordinals all that stuff Jesus, talk about a mental health and a social media pivot there. Let's talk about how you actually break the brain.

As a Bitcoiner, I must have an opinion that is complete and formed on every single topic. So I do have opinions about that. Yeah, man, I don't know. It's hard because I don't want to change Bitcoin. Like, I don't want this idea of Bitcoin keeps on changing. But at the same time, I do understand the value of covenants. We already have covenants.

We have time lock, right? So those transactions are essentially covenants. They have to wait for a time period before those UTXOs are spendable. So, you know, CTV, in my opinion, is the best candidate. um it is very very grug brain solution it's very limited uh and but it opens the door to a lot of interesting design space um and and with that i want to upvote because i mean i don't care too much about the the channel the payment channel stuff that is one of the reasons why people want covenant so they can have shared etx souls for lightning that that doesn't interest me much

I'm interested in having on-chain vaults because I think that as we evolve in this space and normal people have a lot more wealth in an extremely, extremely soluble asset that's portable, the security risk increases also exponentially. So having the actual Bitcoin chain secure not just the ledger entry, but also the velocity and how my vault works is a huge, huge security improvement. It's like orders of magnitude safer for us, right? So you can have a op vault sort of like have some velocity there. So, for example, you create a vault that says, you know, you can only spend max, you know, one BTC per month, right? And if you try to send more, you have to use this other kind of signature, say, like a multi-sig with many more signatures or, you know, like something else. and if you do notice that starts to move without your permission because you lost like a key for something smaller you have time to go and unvault that and vault it into a new vault for example

so that you can you can you can prevent your money to be lost or mitigate by having less loss like i mean it is quite amazing i did like i think like about now three episodes with Rindell and James. James O'Byrne is the author of OpVault. We did three episodes of this in depth on Bitcoin Review. I think people should definitely check that out. I think that once you get more comfortable with CTV and you get more understanding of the gains we get in security, I think it'd be very hard not to want it. But, you know, everybody's sort of like, you know lost and wasting their life with the dick butt pictures jpegs on chain discussion i think it's idiotic for anyone to sort of waste their time with that there is nothing you can do

against the dick butts okay they're not going away uh the people who value them value them for whatever reasons the same way people value ferrari versus you know a porsche or whatever uh you know value is something that is in the eye of the beholder. I think it's idiotic, but whatever, people teach their own. And, you know, and these two discussions are unfortunately completely overlapping each other. And that's really not helping the conversation. That's really not helping us move forward or have a discussion towards a yes or a no. Anyways, but then that's just on covenants, right? We haven't even figured out how we're going to activate a new change to Bitcoin, any soft fork to Bitcoin, right? The previous, not Taproot. So before Taproot,

you know, it was an existential change to Bitcoin, right? We were fighting the 2X and the big blockers. So everybody sort of scrambled and we did, you know, a flag day. And flag days is how I think it should be. But then with Taproot, we had speedy trial. Speed trial is kind of like a flag day, but you give the miners a chance to activate before. I don't necessarily like the incentives on that, but I also don't have a better idea. So kind of stuck with that. So I think the next soft fork is going to be plagued with the biggest. the discussion is going to be once everybody

settles on what is it that you want to soft fork Bitcoin for let's say CTV I think the the biggest hurdle is going to be figuring out how to activate it I don't I don't think people are

prepared for that and and I do think we're going to end up with speedy trial again so I think so yeah I think we're going to do speedy trial again if I if i had to bet i'm not a betting man i thought consensus was that was a terrible activation route it was a bad precedent to set maybe that's why i mean bad precedent to set because it's probably the only way to do this it's it's one of those things man it's like you know who knows maybe

maybe some galaxy brain comes up with something else that's my hope uh but we can't depend on that right no no when you i mean going back to like op vault and covenants more generally i think i agree with you op vault and ctv seem like the most practical and obvious progressions towards covenants or not progression just enabling more robust covenants on bitcoin because when you hear james explain it particularly like he's wholly convinced that if upvote is enabled exchange hacks won't happen again you just use deduction from there like you'd want each individual on the network to have the same security as an exchange has exchanges obviously have the most at risk and so if you can adopt the security of exchanges as an individual

that'll be very good for you and going back to how this conversation started when you consider the five dollar wrench attack risk that exists the way the the protocol is set up now um being able to mitigate that where you just have this social understanding that hey i've got my utxos in a vault like if you try to five dollar wrench me um there's ways in which i can make that very hard for you and just yeah i mean you know i can totally see i think the world we're going towards it's very uncomfortable truth to a lot of bitcoiners is that like you know there is no utxos for everybody right that's the first thing so like you know poor people are not going to have bitcoin um that that's like it's horrible but it's true right like it's just not economically

possible so you know if if we now sort of think that through like you know when you look at like know an on-chain transaction is going to be equivalent of like a bis right like you're going to have to settle some serious money to be worth that transaction uh due to fees uh if bitcoin is winning we're gonna have a lot of fees um and and then lightning is also not for the average person right it's gonna be for companies to settle between each other uh or some other layer two because layer twos by definition are redeemable in bitcoin on chain so what does that do is it causes this layer twos to be ultimately bound by bitcoin's throughput right so you know they can try to compress things you know they can try to do some shared utxos that's kind of what

they are uh so that you know you you go less on chain or or you essentially yeah so essentially like you're just having more capacity with those same utxos um but then what we need on top of that is like a layer three right um and and unfortunately that's where inflation happens right um and and you're gonna have like things like e-cash in my opinion is it's kind of how we solve this is you know most people are going to be doing their coffee transactions with e-cash redeemable to bitcoin right like you kind of you know it's like i hate the free banking stuff but really it's very hard to escape that because that's that's where uh efficiencies lie right i mean inflation is a efficiency tool right it's just that it's impossible not to get abused you

will get abused on every single time is implemented so i'd rather it be implemented at the edges than at the center of a financial system, right? So anyway, so, and this is why is this important, right? It's because like, you know, we're a hardware company, right? We make Bitcoin hardware wallets. And if I'm saying that people are not going to use Bitcoin on chain, you know, in five, 10 years from now that much, why I'm still making hardware wallets for five, 10 years from now?

Well, because you're still going to need to create signatures for this layer twos. You're still going to have to create signatures for people who have UTXOs. And you're going to have to create signatures for the tooling that will create the Zcash, right? That'd be the mints, that'd be the clients. uh and then there is like how do we go from here to there right we still have to exist in this space uh of time between you know like full a full digital cash world uh where you know we we still need to keep the sets that we have so we're not robbed until we have better solutions yeah it's uh it's crazy watching it play out in real time a lot of assumptions i had early on in bitcoin

which should have been more intuitive now in retrospect it's like ah they're probably naive like i think you may have been the first person who really helped me internalize that not everybody's gonna own a utxo it's just simply not possible the way scarce block space works in the world we live in um but then yeah you get into the question what are the trade-offs as you go further up the stack and e-cash makes a lot of sense to me like i was messing around mutinies fediment implementation the other day and it works like magic it just just works um yeah i mean like people yeah and so like and you have these two like awesome uh competing models right they kind of try to attack different things maybe they won't i don't know but you have the fediments

the federated e-cache solution and you have the the cashew which is uh essentially like a non-federated e-cache solution um i i like e-cache sorry i like cashew now more just because it's simpler it's way more deployable uh and if the security model is that it can get rugged then who cares might as well be a single actor instead of a federation that rugs you um although like there is like you know i can see how like bigger entities are going to want to be a federation with betty and anyways it's it's all over the place and and i think because it's closer to the edges you can have a lot more types of solutions coexisting right because it's just more diversity of needs um and you know different people different needs kind of thing so but but

that's but that's where you make different trade-offs right like you're gonna get you You get perfect privacy with eCash. You get like a redeemable bear instrument, you know, and it can be rugged at any time. That's one of the trade-offs, you know, and it's not Bitcoin, right? Like it's like the mint is programmatically designed to be pegged back or to be redeemable for Bitcoin, right? So you're trusting that software or that promise. um but you know trust is never going away right i mean you're trusting your computer you're trusting things uh to do things and and you know like you you trust your your neighbors not to burn down

your house you trust you know like your your spouse not to run away of your children you know it's trust is okay it's just that trust has to be minimized and and properly sort of de-risked where it's possible, right? And I think a lot of the Twitter conversation is too sort of like zero sum game, too un-onesed around the trust topic, right? It's, to say un-onesed Twitter, it's almost a understatement.

No, and that's the other thing that's become more internalized in me over the years is like there's a spectrum where extremely trust minimized, You can be a UTXO purist, if you will. Like, if you don't have the UTXO, you don't control your own private keys. You don't actually own Bitcoin. The other end is you hold it on Coinbase. Maybe Coinbase within an ETF may be the most extreme edge of this.

And then there's trade-offs in the middle. In my view, ETFs are layer two. They are somewhat redeemable on-chain. right like you they have to buy the bitcoin once they have the cash right uh and they have to sell the bitcoin when you cash out right so uh and and what they what they're doing and we're seeing now in my view is i you know i i don't i'm not smart enough to do the math on this but uh i'm sure the boys from glassnode maybe could um is uh you know we had this this mini this mini pre-bull run rally right and the fees didn't spike you know why because you know a lot of retail is going to

probably go to an etf first you know especially big money retail you know once they get comfortable with that and they start seeing the benefits of bitcoin i think it's very very high likelihood they would take you know part of their exposure to bitcoin will be in in coin because you know what's these etfs prove to to read to to the market that they can hold the bitcoins securely with custodians right but under a much better legal structure that the etfs actually own the bitcoin coinbase doesn't own the bitcoin that's there right uh for the etfs you know i'm not saying know fuck brian right i don't i don't like them but just discussing the framework um the once these etfs prove to the market that it's possible for an institution to hold actual bitcoin safely

for years uh with a custodian or with a co-custodian kind of solution right a lot of large entities are just gonna go and buy themselves and use the same mechanisms same solutions that the etfs did they're not idiots right we see this with other assets so um you know again like there is nuance on why etfs can be good like you know it's it's like to me they are essentially a back door in for bitcoin into the traditional uh financial system right so they are going to soften the the message and and the and the hit that bitcoin is gonna is gonna like hit on traditional markets uh because they're gonna make it more compatible until better products are out and until the market understands and values bitcoin for what it is which is pristine collateral

right i mean you look at the the the bitcoin collateralized loans that we have on the market like they're all but it's not that you know land and chain and this company is like are bad no they're dealing with with cost of capital that they have because the people lending capital to them don't understand that bitcoin is amazing right um so you know all these things it's like time in the market bitcoin needs more lindy in the traditional financial system in order to be appreciated for the amazing thing that it is yeah i really like lynn alden's analogy from a few weeks ago i forgot what show she was on but likening the etf to an api into bitcoin and all these financial institutions can just plug into

begin to recognize the benefits that you just laid out in terms of it being pristine yeah that's that's true i mean like you know i was this is an analogy i've been using for for years now it's like bitcoin gives you two amazing propositions right one is anti-debasement like remedy right So like you don't get debased, you have a deflationary sort of money, right? And the other thing is sovereignty, right? If you hold your keys. So, you know, you can choose to get the anti-debasement only part of Bitcoin, right? Number go up only part of Bitcoin by buying ETF, right?

You do lose out on Bitcoin's value proposition of like uncensorable money, right? But you still get anti-debasement by holding that ETF, right? I mean, provided that they don't rug you, don't go away or whatever. Again, because you don't have the sovereignty with that Bitcoin. So I think that like separating and explaining these two things to people is a lot more interesting than sort of like saying ETF bad, ETF good. I don't think that that sort of takes us anywhere in that discussion. This is something that Parker and I fight a lot about. It's because he –

Is Parker there? Say hi to Parker. he's outside i'll say hi to him when i hop out the studio but no that's one thing when we uh when we're together and trying to orange pill an individual one-on-one he really focused on 21 million number go up can't be the base there's more debt there's too much debt not enough dollars like bitcoin is the solution and i come in and be like obviously this is true but the network side bit is very important to this unstoppable peer-to-peer digital cash like what you can do over the network of bitcoin is extremely useful as well part of the fundamental value prop i i think

part of the the problem too is like where you're coming from this discussion right like if you're talking to like you know some major family office that like you know like they just have billions of dollars in assets right uh i mean they have good lawyers so like they're not scared of a bank taking their money as much as we are right because they probably have a better a better contract with that bank and some hedge on top of it too right um you know some banks who offer like some loan in reverse and like zero interest or whatever if you have certain amount of deposit as as your uh um as your hedge against them failing that transaction right there is ways in which like large money behaves in the financial system that is not quite how you do with your bank

card in an ATM, right? These people get rugged less. So, you know, their fear of an ETF sort of like rugged them is a lot lower than yours. I'm not saying they're right, right? Because, you know, we all know that the financial system can go to shit. But, you know, they are going to have a different model of risk than you do. So, you know, I can't fault them for thinking that maybe holding a seed plate is harder than using a custodian as insured to do something for them, right?

But they will get to the plate. Everybody's going to get to the seed plate eventually. You know, it's a matter of time. They will do it personally. You know, they're going to do it for their friends. It's, you know, eventually everybody understands the Bitcoin value prop and they get a seed plate. Yeah, it's top of funnel.

They're at the top of the funnel with the ETF now. They'll get funneled down, holding a seed plate, maybe a multi-sig setup, maybe experimenting with e-cash. I wanted to go back to e-cash, too, because that was a really cool thing to see. This morning, the Prism team on Nostr, and so sort of the intersection of all these things, whether it's Bitcoin, e-cash, and now Nostr.

Leveraging Nostr as a reputation system for these mints seems again talking about trade-offs and rug risk i think it's a really cool social layer app that's beginning to come to fruition where you can rate these these e-cash mints how they operate yeah i mean you know and i i think we're getting to a point now it's kind of like that that sort of like a tweet that i had about primal being venmo for for like for lightning and bitcoin and and eventually cash you know humans need coordination and communication in order to transact right like that you don't you don't send money without exchanging words first right about something agreeing on a price you know you know agreeing on terms you know maybe discussing the

sale or discount you know you you exchange communication right before you make a payment And, you know, we only have the Internet, as you understand, like right now, but now we have Noster, right, which is a much more censorship-resistant and verifiable communication method, right? So it's not just for Twitter application kind of things. You can do markets on it and all sorts of stuff. But the key advancement here is that, you know, unlike a tweet, which is really unverifiable, somebody could be behind my account, on Noster, nobody can be behind my account because it's a key pair, right? So, you know, the AI can't cheat there unless I authorize it to sign it with my key. It's very similar to Bitcoin in that sense. So we're making the message uncensorable and unforgeable, right?

Very similar to Bitcoin in that sense. And these two things are sort of intertwined into this method of like, you know, maybe the first thing we see is a Venmo-like thing for a competitor, right? So that I can go to your Primal profile and send you money. Boom, done, right? But then I think this is going to evolve into way more complex contracts. You're going to have, you know, like you can have calendar payments on your pod. You can, I mean, you can stream stats. I mean, you look at the zap.stream that you and Matt do for RHR.

I mean, it is remarkable, right, that it's easier to use in Twitch. You just go on the thing as a user, and because you have a Nostra key, you're just immediately capable of participating and sending money. Like, you don't have to ask permission. You don't have to, like, you know, create an account and, you know, and KYC yourself or any of that stuff. You're just immediately participating in the event. And I think that UX on itself is, you know, a hundred times better than legacy interactions, pre-NOS or pre-Bitcoin.

So I really think that as these things start to align and have better UX, they're going to take over because it's just better. Like, it's not us trying to, like, force freedom on people. They're just better. And that's sort of like how we win, right? It's like a Bitcoin ETF is just better than any other ETF, right? because it's bitcoin so um i think the value prop is going to become obvious like you the bitcoin's

best marketing is number go up right it's not us trying to convince people so it's the same with with noster right like you have these things and then you're going to have cashew right which is it's just better than any other sort of it's better than lightning it just transfers right and you can do for very tiny amounts and there is no fees so i mean sure a mint can charge a fee but But the point is, like, the technology itself doesn't need fees to exist. And then you're going to have mint swaps, right? So you have the one e-cash token to another e-cash token, two mints sent to each other, and there's no fees on that, right? I mean, technically, you could even remove lightning from the equation there now.

Yeah, it's – things are really going in an awesome direction. I think it's like you can smell the change now as opposed to us just battling before for Bitcoin to be reorganized. And I think that's one of the bigger themes of the last three years is this recognition that – going back to like the Web 3.0 meme of last cycle, which the shitcoiners really pushed. I think that's something that Bitcoiners have really come to grok and understand intuitively and begin building on is that Web 3.0, in the way it was put forth by shitcoiners, may have some kernel of truth in the intention of the end result that they want to get at. But you don't need a token, a whole new blockchain, all these other cock and antitokenomics involved. You simply just need to combine open source money with these other open source protocols that enable these peer-to-peer interactions, whether it's communication or value transfer. I mean, Kali just announced today his cashew-based stablecoin. Yeah.

Right? And this stuff is all permissionless. That's the thing. Like, see, we've federated e-cash, you know, you're going to have bigger entities using, so they're going to need to ask permission, right? Or they're going to get shut down and go to jail. But, like, when you're talking about the simpleness, the simplicity of cashew, and you just go and you press a button and now you have a mint, like, you know, governments are not going to go put people in jail in North America because somebody has a mint of $100 in it, right? I mean, realistically speaking. They may pick a couple of guys to make an example,

but still, nothing's going to happen to you if you have $100 mint, right? Now, imagine 300 million people, 500 million people, each with $100 mint, right? Transacting with each other, right? It's like, boom. And this is only possible because of Bitcoin, right? Because you still need a means of store of value, right?

Because you're not going to store your value in cashew, right? Because that's ruggable. so uh that's great for in transit money but because you have this ultimate settlement system right like that's bitcoin you can do all these crazy things at the edges right where it's uncapturable yeah and you can use noser for the coordination of all this stuff it's crazy um no then you get to like the network side of things like even if the government did want to go door to door and unplug all of this i mean just the nature of how you create a private public key pair on noster and how these mints are spun up like you can do it in a way where it's very hard

to i mean marty how's the world drugs going that's so great they're legalizing them you know no seriously it's like it's so hopeless right like you know you can't fight the edges as a centralized entity right All you can do is compete with the edges, right? So they could try to launch a much better CBDC and whatever to try to compete with it. But at the end of the day, if you can't compete, you're going to lose because you can't fight the edges. It's just the value. It's the perfect sort of like we're arriving, like the stars are starting to align for all the right technology that you need to deploy Bitcoin or a Bitcoin sort of claim to every person in the planet.

having been in this for a while are you surprised with how quickly things are accelerating right now or did you expect the order of operations to go somewhat like this i don't know man i've been in bitcoin for for a minute or two and uh it's uh you know it's never it's it's always it's always uh uh slower than you want and faster than you expect right um it never is the way you expect to be it's it's just you know we're just here for the ride we're trying to understand as it goes and trying to like build the products that we need to exist uh in in this paradigm shift um i i you know predictions in the space are too hard um because all it takes is like some crazy person to who's brilliant to invent you know something

called nuts right and then you have another major leap in the in the financial technology right uh it's like it is pretty crazy how because the design space is so big and we have bitcoin as this sort of like a central settlement system um you know we're we're always just like a minute away from somebody creating something that's completely crazy amazing new that solves many problems uh because the the hardest problem has been solved which is the settlement store of value right um so so now it really is just up to us to come up with the next thing in the next thing the next thing um and but you know again like as a person who lives and breathes this and being steeped into the bitcoin space it's very

easy to uh to disregard and ignore inertia right and and fiat has inertia right it has you know 100 years now of like you know dollar like things fiat things uh and that's a lot of inertia it's eight billion people using it uh they have a lot of lindy and uh it's not in their interest to like sink the ship right it's it's in the interest of everybody to profit with a change of ship you know and as as legacy system legacy brilliant legacy people uh sort of start to realize that there is the alternative to go towards and profit with you know then the incentives align and and we see the shift as opposed to just waiting for everything to implode i don't like the implosion sort of path i think that's just counterproductive it's a lot of suffering and i don't want that

world for my kids I rather see a world in which you know we we shift and people find a way of like producing value and finding profit changing to a new system yes are you saying we don't need a mandibles world to actually succeed yes I really don't think that we're gonna go there I seriously don't like inertia does not take us there you know you can see some of this right Like, you look at it like when a hurricane destroys a civilized place, right? How fast things get rebuilt. You know, when we have a financial crisis, you know, how fast the assholes find a way to steal, but also to keep the thing going, right? Like, because, listen, it is in their interest to not have a civil war, right?

Like, you know, at the end of the day, they live there, too. so you know as much as this this pieces of shit take a little too much from the solution they do find a way for the system to keep on going and slowly shift somewhere else it's just that they ran out of ideas but but they you know like eventually they'll get to Bitcoin and and maybe ETFs are one way for example for to not lose their their retirement savings on government bonds right yeah I mean you just headline I read right before we started recording It was like apparently Japan, one of their largest pensions, it's got trillions of dollars in it.

They're seriously considering allocating the Bitcoin to save a desperate pension system. So historically, you know, because Japan is like, you know, just printing for so long, they don't have like there is no way for the Japanese to find yield in Japan, right, for their fiat. So you can't work your fiat in Japan. So what they do, they buy treasuries, American treasuries. They buy, you know, European bonds. They buy all kinds of other crap, right? Soft bank invests on FTX and Tesla, right? And OpenAI and everything else, right?

Because there is no yield. So, and Japan just announced that they're going to finally, for the first time in, God, I don't know, 20 years, you know, like, increase interest rates by, like, you know, I don't know, like, I think it's like one basis point or something, 10 basis point. I don't know. It was little. And it's totally a token of appreciation, literally. And people are freaking out, right? Because funds borrow in yen and then go gamble with the money, right? And now they're going to change the dynamics of this a little bit.

They're signaling that they will. Nobody knows where the shit's going to go. But, yeah, but essentially, like, the Japanese need a place to park money that produces yield, right, because Fiat, you know, gets the base, so you need to produce the yield. And, you know, maybe the Bitcoin ETFs is something, right, like you were saying that maybe they're going to do it. You know, the Quebec Pension Fund, one of them, invested in FTX, big position. They did quite well. well um but eventually you're gonna see you know this dispension funds uh uh allocating to bitcoin right because they're not going to be able to avoid it because micro strategy is going to be

on a future 500 company right and half of the indices that are investable you know are allocations of that so uh they might they might just get some some bitcoin even if they don't want to um yeah financial markets are weird and they're going to get very weird Yeah. No, we saw it here in the States too, the state of Arizona. I think the state treasury wrote a letter to their legislator like, hey, we really want to get our pensions into Bitcoin. So writing this letter to express our intent to enable the pension system

within Arizona to allocate to these ETFs. It's happening. I mean, listen, BlackRock being one of the worst actors on the planet, they wouldn't get into it if they didn't believe in it. yeah and they're coming for the lion's share of it too they already have more than micro strategy right is that black I think it's BlackRock alone it's a bit it's not even but I think isn't it dollar amount versus actual Bitcoin amount I think it's bad what does it matter market cat it does because I

don't think I think until the FASB change happens I don't think micro strategy can book the fair market value of Bitcoin as their market cap. I think it's number of Bitcoin. I think it surpassed the number of Bitcoin held. If only there was a website, you could find that out. Let's see. I'm curious now. So MicroStrategy is at how much Bitcoin they have?

Over $215,000. $214,000. yeah uh and uh etfs etfs and gone etfs um what's the what's the name is our share right i bet 237 you are correct sir they are 20 000 bitcoin over that happened rapidly and uh and the source this is solid is uh bitcoin treasuries.net i mean it's a dot net it's not the best uh best url but yeah at bitcoin treasuries.net great site you can check all this out um how like how much do you think the etfs get when all is said and done i mean they're on pace to have over a million pretty quickly yeah i think i think they're

going to start to to struggle when they get to like 20 of the bitcoin total because you know because price price increases as they get closer to their 20 right and and and that bitcoin is going to become very very pricey it's going to become so absurd that the amount of the amount of like fiat wealth they're going to need in order to buy the bitcoin it's going to be so high that like we start to spiral you know into uh hyper beaconization here um it could get it could get dicey i mean especially if if like you know this time doesn't feel like many large coin holders are are selling off to buy nice things yet um you know you the the market seems super shallow spot market's super shallow for an asset this size. I think people are going to have a rude awakening

in terms of how much it's going to cost to take a Bitcoin off of a Bitcoiner. Are you in the Samson-Mal camp? Do you think we get a million dollars by the end of next year? Yeah. I mean, it's all within the helm of possibilities. It could also be like, we could go down to 30 30 000 or it could be a million dollars it could be two million dollars might be a bear um no really like you know we're dealing with exponential systems here right like it's like stuff could rally and get completely out of control right like if we have like a world craze for it totally possible like you know because it was very local right most of the rallies are very local it's like you know it's like a group of people you know it hits mainstream

like a little bit but it's not like you know every day on the news oh my god you know you know everybody's putting other savings into bitcoin right like and then like banks freaking out and buying it and you know every hedge fund buying it and you know like you think things could get completely crazy like uh not impossible yeah i'm ready bring it bring it it's gonna be fun regardless you know 30 000 bitcoin will also be a lot of fun too great stocking great stocking opportunity um it's uh it's like a win-win i mean it's a weird space to be in it's like you love either side it's like i i don't think that ever happened before it's we only have this because it's a deflationary fixed supply system otherwise we would be screaming that you know the price

please only up yeah but it's going to destroy the economy you can't have an economy run on a currency with a fixed supply who will spend people will hoard things yeah i think i think uh you know fasting is going to become more common because nobody's going to eat anymore at all forever right and and uh and also people are just gonna learn how to uh um build caves cave houses so because you're not gonna need shelter anymore um and we're not gonna have the internet anymore and we're not gonna have air but we're definitely gonna stop traveling you know the green people should love bitcoin you know because we're gonna just stop the economy yeah we're gonna hoard all over bitcoin soak up a little bit of energy and just not go spend no more plastics nothing

we should i mean we are i mean we are mammals we should just be why are we even wearing clothes we should just all be walking around naked unless it's cold out i mean living in the tropics does like help some of that you know you can at least just be in shorts all day uh no no shoes um Um, but what I'm really disappointed at is the fact that we did not fulfill the promise that coin is not using the world's energy as profiterized by, uh, I don't know which newspaper it was out today. Uh, by 2020, we should have been using all the energy on the planet and we're still not boiling the oceans too.

I mean, there is places on earth that the ocean is very cold and I'm very disappointed that it's not a bathtub. Yeah. People in California should not have to wear wetsuits to go surfing. you should be able to bear back before global warming man you know like seriously especially canadians bring back the megafauna that's what i want to see that's right more oxygen is it's counterintuitive it's like more co2 it produces more oxygen you get bigger plants warmer climate i like the tropics you know yes i mean on the plus side you know the

All the people who are against human flourishment, they don't make babies. So this is going to resolve itself in 50 years. We're going to, Bitcoin, you know, no more people who don't like humans. You know, they're really converging. It's a beautiful thing. It really is.

Go make babies. How can you not be an optimist? Yeah. On that note, what are you most excited for? Obviously, we just said the price of Bitcoin is going to $2 million. Why be Irish? that does not faze me anymore. Like, honestly, that that is

not part of my scope of things. I care. I think I think a, you know, like, you know, the stuff we're working on, I just can't fucking wait to ship stuff. It's like, you know, it's, it's like the grind of hardware, and ramping production, you know, it can't make enough devices. You know, there is too many new Bitcoiners who cannot clearly hold their seeds buying all this devices. Amazing to me, like, my, my sales numbers do not agree with this trend that it's too hard to self custody

Bitcoin. And, yeah, man. I don't know, I think I think the world is swinging a little bit politically, which helps, you know, we're gonna get your doors. Oh, yeah, no, I mean, that guy, that guy is is just done. I mean, you never say ever right i mean maybe they come up with another pandemic or something you know the guy finds a way of sticking around he's a parasite like a true parasite uh he's governing with a minority government in a way that's very uh unheard of for canada um but yeah that parasite is going to be out soon um you know it's still like you know a country of kind of like commie leaning people so

it's not like it's going to become like, you know, like, you know, guns and cheeseburgers, you know, the next day, you know, the America. Exactly. But, but I think it's going to trend towards something better. Should we come annex Alberta at least? Alberta doesn't have water access or borders. So it's kind of a problem. A lot of oil though. Canada is the second largest reserve of water on the planet. It could be, I keep on saying to this, like, it's the best country to be a

commie, they could just start drilling like Norway does and pay for all the commie shit that they want. They can offer like in home sex transition surgeries for free, with oil money. Anyone who press a button, they come to your house and they chop your penis. David Wright- Or they kill you. Yeah, whatever. I mean, like, yeah, I mean, this shit like it's so out of control.

taking the main program to a whole new level now these people really uh it's evil man like it's it's like it's actually i think it's you who who has that saying like demons like these people are just like they way across the line into just evil it's dude it is easier to buy heroin legally in canada than it is to buy raw milk yeah that's pretty up like think about that for a second okay and it's not an exaggeration it's it's actually like like a a true statement try i've been trying to buy you have to essentially beg some farmer to give it to you and maybe you'll do it because they're scared to death of going to jail but like but heroin is available now everywhere what do you need to do to get herald you just

walk into a clinic and you say give me this that's what i like and then they'll give you something yeah truly demonic no no they're spending millions of dollars branding the syringes with the name of the city now it's amazing like dude it's bizarre world it is the thing like that like they're making like legal for for for people with mental health issues to kill themselves the person is already suicidal you ask them if they want to kill themselves of course they're to say yes it's not that complicated like five percent of deaths in canada were part of the made program last year no no they're gonna ramp it up um you know and then like you know like

you bankrupt the country you know you fuck up the culture you you make into a commie shithole all in 10 years, by the way. And then you offer people suicide. You don't, no, but what's amazing to me is that we also have the fastest immigration policy in the planet, right? I'm fully pro-immigration, especially in a country that doesn't make babies.

And the immigrants are a lot more based than the locals, so it helps. But the problem is like, there is not enough infrastructure, especially at that combi place, right? so so the country is like adding a million people a year uh you know being a country that only has you know it was 30 million 37 million people just like 10 years ago and and then we're 41 million people or targeted 41 million people like dude that's a lot of people it's 10 growth

it's insane you know there is no infrastructure they'll handle that even in a place that's not call me right you can't build that fast especially you know with all the fucking like retarded regulations on everything i saw a clip this morning of 200 people in line at a liquor store to get a job yeah i know that's that's everywhere but you know it's the same in america too like you know america has pockets of freedom but at the end of the day i always say right like it's like why real estate is a shit coin and you don't own it well stop paying taxes on it and wait to see how long it takes for them to show to you how how much is not yours you know it's yeah in any densely populated place it's going to be more complicated too right yeah but i do i do agree with you i do

think the pendulum is swinging i think bizarre world has hit such a point where people who were part of the silent majority and we're just like yeah i'm just gonna go about my life like they are literally not able to avoid it anymore and they're confronted with it in their everyday lives and then well i mean you know when we had you know money printed that made everybody rich between quotes right for uh you know for a couple years during covet everybody felt rich right everybody was buying all kinds of i mean you know it was amazon boxes like to the brim during covet um you know it's very easy to vote for all this idiosity right when when like you know you essentially feel like you know money is infinite um but once everybody is starting to

get now kicked in the balls because you know their mortgages are like three times what they used to pay per month right so they're all broke um in canada mortgages reopen every five years right because they don't they you know you don't have a 30-year fix yeah i know it's insane to have a 30-year fix. Math doesn't work in 30 years, but it's amazing. Good for you guys. Very jealous. So anyway, people are broke. When people are confronted with economic reality, they start making better economic decisions. And all of a sudden, maybe we shouldn't have free sex surgeries for kids you know because the health care is is socialized right so even if you believe that that's supposed to happen which you're a monster uh you still maybe don't want to share

that versus a heart surgery right people start making these economic calculations with a little bit more sanity um and uh and starts to put things in a better direction right yeah because opportunity cost is more prevalent and in your face so it's like yeah do i want to cut off this 16 year old's boobs or help somebody get a heart surgery yeah exactly right like it's it's not a very complicated you know calculation now uh for most people for some people it's still a struggle but it's amazing it's crazy that we've been having this conversation it is pretty insane i went to a a doctor's appointment this morning dermatologist pale-skinned irishman here i had to get my skin checked spent a lot of time in the sun during the summers and uh melanoma runs in my family

so i had to go get skin checks once or twice a year did that this morning i'm filling out stop using sunscreen no i don't i use the spf the long shirts and the hat um the filling out the form new doctor it's literally like what's your gender i was checked male i'm like all right what's next here it's like what are your pronouns i was like what the fuck i just i just checked it's everywhere it's like what's your preferred i was like i just did not for i was like left it blank it's like i'm not participating in canada you can get a passport that says x what is x zero no no i mean like listen that's cool i know i don't give a shit remove let's remove passports altogether that would be the correct uh a move uh but but yeah

like no but but the problem that i have is you know if people want to be retired or whatever like it's not my problem but like it's the cost you know like every time they want to change a government form cost millions of dollars right and this shit compounds it's on everything yeah can't even go to the dermatologist without them asking for your preferred pronouns i mean you know like and it's like if i ask my two-year-old like my three-year-old what what what what is he today he's gonna probably say like a lion or you know like do i take him for like a lion surgery you know my four-year-old's in a big good guy versus bad bad guy stage so i never know i show up from work and i i find out if he wants to be a good guy or a bad guy he's

like i'm the bad guy today you're the good guy then he hands me a sword and we fight it's so funny my kids are really into darth vader they don't like luke yeah no they're like you know because i they asked daddy you know do you want to be uh do you want to be a jedi or do you want to be a sif lord whatever i'm like i am a mandalorian i don't take sides in this battle i'm here you know mercenary okay like i don't want to participate and it's i just keep on banging that message you know like i i don't want to take part in this fight it's their problem yeah red team versus blue team i don't i don't participate in that i am i'm a hitman that's right that's right i don't have allegiances that's right oh man it's like

you know who's the terrorist it's whoever you ask the other side right yeah yeah government may be the biggest largest terrorist organization humanity has ever seen it is i mean they killed more people than anybody else yeah yeah that's we're gonna win though we're gonna win we're winning you always are winning you get pissed about what i said we're going to win why we why we are winning over we're going to win because we're already winning like look at this timeline is insane you know like i mean it totally is insane like you know you know you had a dude saying buy bitcoin of a sign and like a fed like like a congress hearing you know like we're really there dude it's like you know you can't you can't kill an idea right and and the

idea is spreading and you know like bitcoin is making everybody better it is you know life is better like quantitatively and qualitatively better and they don't realize it yet they're playing our game now they think we're in there with us they're in here they are on our meme sphere now you know like look at these morons trying to meme against us it's hilarious like it is so funny like it's just they you know like you know that that mean the left can't mean yeah you know but it's the left or the right it doesn't matter like government people like you know like uh commies of of left or right they can't mean yeah i saw a screenshot from 4chan today it was probably from years ago but they were like the anon on 4chan was claiming

to be part of one of the government agencies he was like keep it up they're literally having meetings where they're trying to create memes that turn pepe the frog gay um to make it so guys it really is amazing did you see that one of the the guy who made the q anon documentary he had to lie about most things because there wasn't evidence because it's a meme i did not see that yeah there was a guy i i can't i think it might have been even canadian documentary about q anon uh you know the guy really like you know some some lefty crazy person went after them kind of thing yeah i'm gonna expose q anon right and then it turned out there was all the evidence was manufactured against q anon or he like dug deep and was like

oh wait this is just a big joke he was against q anon right and then and but he wanted to expose q anon for this evil thing right and then he had to manufacture the evidence that there they even exist man they can't do it and it frustrates them which makes me happy it really does i think that that's the biggest like that's that's why it's like flare-ups of anger and all the shit is because like they they just they can't fight like you know like physics right like you can't you can't argue the rock like no and that i think that's the most exciting thing about this is i think bitcoiners particularly but more people are beginning to recognize this like the biggest or the best most effective way to defeat these centralizing forces in our life is to literally

ridicule them to death yes and they get so pissed off by that and like it actually is approachable to people who don't understand the problem you make a joke about it and you're like oh this is pretty funny and fucked up yeah i mean this this space is uh like remember the campaign the greenpeace had changed the code yes right it's like okay change the code yeah do it okay Do it. Please do it. Right? Like they don't understand that like you can't change everybody else's code if you change

the code. No. And if they would. This is what I'm saying about argument of a rock. Right? Like there is nothing you can do. And all they had to do was go watch Michael Goldstein's 2019 BitBlockBoom presentation of meme warfare, and they would have recognized that they put that out there.

All we're going to do is accept and project. Yes. You can change the code. please yes it's so good that by the way if people have a haven't not seen that's probably one of the best presentations in Bitcoin like ever and and it was it became a meme itself to before was released yeah there was there was like a whole drum about how that Brian Bishop was trans Bryan Bishop was transcribing it and putting it on his website and people reading it like an hour after he

gave the presentation without it being released taking it out of context yes it was uh the meme precedes itself like it can't it's amazing it really is the best timeline man we live in the best timeline yeah and this will be the second episode in a row which we ended on this phrase don't let your memes be dreams we can actualize our memes into reality it's memeing to existence Yes. Keep doing it. You keep memeing. Self-custody, better practices, good approaches to Bitcoin in life, into the world. You're doing an incredible job. Again, don't want to blow smoke up your ass, but playing around with the queue the last couple of weeks, it is the best Bitcoin hardware wallet that I've ever interacted with. just for maybe just for me but the ux the battery pack nfc the intuitive setup process it was an incredible experience i really appreciate it man that was a there was a product of like i was going full autistic you know what is what is the hundred wallet that a bitcoiner really wants

um and we sort of ah it looks like that yeah you have the password manager inside like And you can tell how much time and effort went into it. And if you're out there listening, you should get one and use it. Because, again, most high-quality hardware wallet I've used. Most intuitive, too. I appreciate that. Yeah. Where should we send the freaks?

Oh, boy. You know, yeah, freaks, just go check out the queue. Go check out the Mark IV. It's not going anywhere. Go check out TapSigner if you want to play his stuff. I mean, there is a million things we make. You should have been at the takeover because you would have been like a kid in the candy shop.

We demoed the Sats card to somebody who was here. And the way we demoed it is we gave him a Sats card, a 1031 Sats card. He clicked it on the back of his phone, pulled out the address, and then I pulled out my TapSigner and had a wallet on Chuck connected to my TapSigner. and I signed and broadcasted a transaction from Nunchuck using TapSigner to his Sats card.

His mind was blown. Boom. That's awesome. Yeah. That's really great. Yeah, man, you know, we're going to play. We're going to figure out more things. We're going to make it as easy as possible

and as secure as possible, security before anything else. You know, I was actually talking to somebody about this. It's like, what's the most important thing? Not losing the Sats you already have. That's more important than being easy, being pretty, being anything, right? And then make it as easy as possible is the second thing, right? So we're working on it, and, you know, we take the feedback very seriously. And, you know, hopefully nothing looks like what we have now in five years from now.

You know, it's just perfect. Yeah. And you've got a good brand. I want to buy all the products as they come out. I've got one of these right here. um that's the one thing it's a sticky brand it's a very easy to keep buying the products well you know you gotta find gotta find the funds to to develop more things right this is our hobby this is what we love to do so it's like it's very self-fulfilling

well keep doing it keep fulfilling yourself uh get your ass down austin soon and i i do i do want to go it's been a while it's going to be good it's going to be good spring here vibes are high parker lewis has some uh some questions to ask you in person um so sounds good all right good stuff keep crushing it peace and love freaks