TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #507: How Live Nation Scams Artists and Their Fans with Sam Means & Michael Rhee

Episode Date: May 20, 2024

Marty sits down with Sam and Michael from Wavlake to discuss the magic of concerts and how Ticketbot can help loosen Live Nation's grip on the industry. Sam on Twitter: https://x.com/sammeans Michael on Twitter: https://x.com/rheedio Wavlake: https://wavlake.com/ Wavlake app: https://app.wavlake.com/ 0:00 - Intro 0:50- Opening riff 3:58 - Kendrick vs Drake 10:56 - River & Unchained 12:12 - Stories about music 33:11 - Gradually, Then Suddenly & Zaprite 34:48 - The Live Nation problem 48:06 - Ticketbot 1:05:53 - Nostr’s pace of progress 1:22:06 - Overlooked elements of Nostr 1:29:23 - Come to Nashville! 1:33:23 - Wrapping on best concert Shoutout to our sponsors: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠River⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Unchained⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Zaprite⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Gradually, Then Suddenly⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TFTC Merch is Available: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shop Now⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join the TFTC Movement: Main ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YT Channel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Clips ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YT Channel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Marty Bent: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

this rip of tftc was brought to you by river it's the best place to buy bitcoin go to river.com tftc and enjoy this episode you've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free If you talk about a Fed just gone nuts, all the central banks going nuts. So it's all acting like safe haven. I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor. I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.

If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. You probably should be. yeah we're starting off with a riff Thursdays, making Thursdays your busiest day makes Friday a little bit better this is what I've learned there's nothing I love more than an open Friday

especially in New York walking around on a Friday in New York can you beat that? that's always fun I feel like it never works out that way for me I always hope for Friday to be my relaxing day

and what inevitably ends up happening is things just pile up at the end of the week and i'm like oh crap i can't do anything but work yeah that happens a lot it's not to say that doesn't happen to me either um but without fail i've known this because we have rabbit will recap on thursdays um do another podcast on thursday sometime now this thursday mixing in a tftc episode i just no going into the week all right kind of make it to and get through thursday and then friday will be that much better my jam is i have a calendar that i just called block and sometimes i just have to physically block out the entire day so nobody books anything it's the only way to ensure that i have a i have an open i have a open data myself yeah it works it works pretty

well but speaking of fridays in new york i had one a few weeks oh yeah during the having it was in new york for having i was too but i missed it i thought it was it it was around this other event that i had to do and i actually i somehow missed that it happened that friday night i thought it was happening saturday so i thought i was gonna miss it anyway so then i just stopped paying attention i guess and then i saw everybody having fun friday night and realized i totally blew the whole thing it was a fun event i'm here at the pub yeah i'm here for pizza day though here that's gonna be fun when is that it's gonna be in a few days right yeah i think it's i think it's next next week maybe sometime 22nd somewhere in there there's a cool nostril thing happening

there too at old uh pub key on the 30th lots of action that's okay i was able to visit some one of my favorite dive bars it's one of my favorite dive bars it's got a good playlist automatic slims where's that at oh west village i love west village yeah i like uh i like wxou they have a cool jukebox too have you ever been there yeah that is one of my favorite bars nice that's great to hear yeah west village gets some doesn't get a lot of love for some reason i feel a lot of my friends think i'm a dork for like in the west village but i like it i think it's great wxou bar was top three bars for me in new york yeah that place there that place rules it's cash only it there's a sign on the back that says cash only no red bull i love that about it yeah i don't

know why but i just think it's funny just print it out on a piece of white paper the wooden booths if you get there earlier enough you get oh yeah it's a good time yeah right by the window too good people watching down uh down uh hudson yeah it's a great spot i mean before we jump into what we came here to talk about which is ticket bot which is incredibly cool what are our thoughts on this uh kendrick drake beef i'm dude i mean i'm i'm team kendrick on the way like there's no doubt about it i haven't been following it that closely but i've always been a huge k-dot fan so i have this i would have to take his side over drake just by default i i saw i've never seen drake i've seen kendrick in 2013 i believe good kid mad city at a festival one of the best

live performances i've ever seen i bet yeah i mean there's to me there's no there's just no there's i mean it's kendrick that's a drake's opposer i don't know that's my personal stance but yeah and i'm a huge uh i was gonna say i'm a huge little brother fan you guys know that hip-hop group they're out of north carolina no oh so there's a the it's a duo they used to um perform with ninth wonder but he kind of fell out so now it's two guys uh fonte and big poo and it's starting to come out of the woodwork that drake has essentially ripped off his entire delivery and flow off of fonte that sounds about right soldier boy soldier boy first fonte now yeah this whole this whole beef started because of some other rapper that drake

ripped off as well right yeah who was his i forget who it was yeah drake's been ripping people and he's stealing people's girlfriends and stuff like that's his that's that's his move when i started digging girlfriends yeah yeah he's been he's been going into dms this dude we got to get rid of drake he's he's done let's drake can move on to something else and well the reason i bring it up to start this conversation how could something like Wavelake, Noster, Value for Value disrupt the wrap beef. The beef and wrap

market. I mean, Zaps could be the true voting signal for who wins. Yeah, like when you go to a coffee shop and there's two jars and it's like Drake or Kendrick, you can do that on Wavelake. That could be a little hackathon, Michael. We'll just build like a digital

tip jar thing. Right. Yeah. I mean, that is... We just gotta get we just got to get those two guys involved yeah yeah let's see if we can get see if we can get kendrick on wave like probably won't be a problem well we've got some people connected we can reach out to him aka dot if you're listening no that is in in the somewhat serious i'm like getting on like it is like a rough consensus around who won the rap uh battle it wasn't really a rap battle but the beef yeah back and forth if you will multiple songs um the consensus was highly

dictated by twitter commentary and youtube channels that were essentially dissecting everything yeah yeah in the end both of them won because everyone's talking about them it's true i thought for a second i was like is there some some way that this is fabricated you know but then yeah there's just there's not the more you dig down i didn't i didn't get too deep but one one day on an airplane i'm like okay i'm gonna catch up on all this stuff and figure out what's going on and listen to all these songs in consecutive order and yeah there was no question that it's absolutely real and this goes deep and people yeah i mean i think people seem to have always kind of been annoyed by drake but the he was i guess kind of good

and so people were putting up with it just because the music at a at a point was okay and now he's now the music sucks i mean i've never been a fan but you know some people like him but now the music just straight up sucks so he has no pass he's done yeah i i always assumed that the whole rap battle thing was always a publicity driven thing hasn't it like i get that there are some you know going all the way back to who shot you but that was a way to get attention right yeah well again i mean diving in and like plugging wavelake into this when you guys are trying to do it it did acutely highlight is how insular the music industry is and how much influence is dependent on um influence or proximity to

influence is dependent on your overall success and i think that's what was laid bare in this back and forth particularly coming from kendrick yeah i really liked how fast it happened too it just was how it was just happening in real time unfolding day after day it's just really cool that that can happen today that you can just release the you know record and write record and release music so unbelievably quickly i feel like some a couple were even releasing the same day like within hours of each other it's kind of crazy yeah i think the uh graham family matters or whatever yeah to be honest i only listened to two of the songs and i posted about one on twitter and got yelled at for like oh why are you why are you listening to those better things to

do i was like all right i'm sorry you listen to music every once in a while marty yeah you're allowed to i was watching usc and i saw like kendrick posted i listened to the one song i i was like oh this is pretty good yeah i love it i love listening i mean it's like the i have sort of a short attention span for lyrics often because i'm a i like my brain just automatically goes more towards instrumentation of things but i really focus on kendrick's lyrics when he's uh when he's talking the dude i watch a bunch of i forget who it is there's like this guy that does breakdown videos of of primarily like rap and hip-hop lyrics and always pointing out just how unbelievably smart and clever the kendrick lyrics are it's pretty fascinating like he gets into

talking about like the cadence of his raps and the bars and the alliteration the particular words he gets like mathematical um it gets incredibly mathematical and like yeah lots of callbacks within verses and stuff and they're just you know yeah really smart stuff dude's super smart and good kid mad city came out when i was in college so um very memorable album for me and i think that's one of the best american biopics that's ever been written um in an album form just how he described life in compton and it was a story throughout very creative way to to piece together an album yeah yeah that's a great one that was the first one for me i love that one this episode was presented by river river is the best most

secure place to buy bitcoin in the united states go to river.com slash tftc set up an account today you'll be able to dca into bitcoin without paying any fees you'll be able to give people bitcoin via river links you'll be able to send and receive bitcoin over the lightning network and you'll be able to set limit orders. If you want to buy Bitcoin at a particular price below or above where it is now, you can set orders to buy Bitcoin when it hits that price. Go to river.com slash TFTC and set up your account today. This rep was also brought to you by our good friends at Unchained. Unchained is building a financial services platform for a Bitcoin standard. They have over 7,000 clients that are securing over 90,000 Bitcoin with 12,000 keys on their platform.

Their platform leverages Bitcoin's native multi-sig properties. Their cornerstone product is their Volt product, a two or three multi-sig Volt, which allows you to hold two of three keys in a multi-sig quorum. That gives you full control over your Bitcoin. They also have an IRA product, a lending desk, and they're rolling out a bunch of other products, including an inheritance protocol and sound advisory. So go to unchained.com, set up a call with our concierge onboarding team today, tell them that TFTC sent you and use the promo code TFTC at checkout.

unchained.com i love music i love music of all kinds it's just so cool music is such a bonding thing isn't it isn't it cool to come on a bit on a i don't want this isn't a bitcoin podcast anymore and you talk about all kinds of stuff but it's cool to just be able to connect with people on music that's the most fun part about it yeah let's see my wife and i went out to um a bunch of other bitcoiners last friday night to an album release party for a smaller artist here in austin it was just a really cool experience going to uh god what the heck small venue all the way down south congress um there's probably about like 150 people there and the artist scott played his album it was just really cool to be in that environment it was like

a honky-tonk bar that's fine artist releasing his album 20 bucks get in the door drinking ranch waters um listening to good music that's not mainstream it's a good i like that i i feel like the album listening party is coming back that was i've been noticing that a lot i mean maybe it didn't completely go away but that was a that was a thing a while ago and now it's i feel like it kind of fell off the map for a while but i've been seeing a lot of that so this was just to listen to the album it wasn't a live performance no it was a live performance of the album oh i it was oh because yeah i've been seeing these like you just go like uh that band you ever get into mgmt oh yes i've been i've been on a big mgmt kick okay cool yeah little dark age radio

has been my go-to nice i love it i love that band but they did they did a whole like a whole run of just like you just go and listen to their record at a record store and hang out and they had some fun stuff it was really cool yeah i think they even did some at movie theaters and i just think think it's a cool idea you know that was together and listen yeah that was my that was how I heard Radiohead's Kid A for the first time I was in college in Madison and there's a there's a beautiful old theater called the Orpheum and it was it was like a record listening party and people just sat people just sat in the theater basically in the dark with a looping video on the screen and like all heard kid a for the first time which was really weird like the first time

you heard it i mean for me it was like what this is the band that you know was singing creep a few years before and now they were doing like weird avant-garde prog rock um but that was a really cool experience i just flashed back to the first time i heard that i was standing outside of someone's car and they're my friend's car and they're like you have to hear this weird ass radio album it's like what is this well i'm having flashbacks to uh driving in the car of my dad in philadelphia growing up on like creep originally dropped in the 90s and he he was young he was in his 20s at the time we were in the car but that guitar riff that like he would get all he'd like turn the radio all the way up and get jacked up for that he's like wait for it

and it was so cool when you could listen to the real one too and not the radio edit because it was a little uh little grittier more explicit yeah a little more explicit by the way uh one of patrice o'neill's best uh it wasn't even a joke he was on a radio show talking about creep oh it's just like the epitome of like white people hating themselves that's amazing music man all right it's it's powerful it is it really is it's incredible yeah sam and i sam and i have gotten into some deep conversations about bands and stuff in our in our couple years we're working together now and um yeah i mean it was it it it works out because you know we're trying to build this music service

so inevitably we end up we end up geeking out about this kind of stuff well it's like that story i just told about the um my dad in the car do i have many songs um where i can have flashback memories of of time with my dad in the car just because music i'm able to connect oh yeah that moment with the song that was playing at that particular point in time like there's literally something psychological about that um yeah yeah that's my that's where music started for me was riding in the car with my dad like road trips buying cassette tapes and stuff driving to we had family that lived in oklahoma so my dad and i would just drive there for a couple days and you know it's like a 16 or 8 hour 18 hour drive or something from arizona and

And yeah, I mean, that's, I mean, that's like a little listening party for yourself. It used to be, used to actually just like listen to an album, you know, that's, that's an art form that's being lost, but it was so fun to just sit there and discover like the Beatles and the Beach Boys and all kinds of cool, you know, my dad's music, but now it's mine now. I love it. But yeah, it is, it is cool how much of an impact those early years of your life, you really do remember, like I can, I can almost see it, you know, like close your eyes for

a second. you can just picture driving through the desert listening to like joan baez or something yeah we had uh the albums in the car uh the who's greatest hits super tramps greatest hits uh sound garden black hole son wow um diverse what else did we used to get into uh pete yoren uh i love you michael were we just talking about pete or not that long ago or is that something we have we have before yeah but not recently i have a great story live at the house of blues in atlantic city before it went under i was 16. i was a massive

peter fan at the time and had the opportunity to meet him and i completely just muffed it i was like 16. hey what's up hey pete yeah that's cool i worked at a hot dog stand at the journey shore and that was on that was one of the albums that i would put on like when i got the when i got the aux cord of the guy putting pete yarn on yeah that actually that reminds me i worked as a lifeguard through like the second half of high school and first half of college so naturally like we're we're listening to stuff on the on the speakers during our shifts and um the the guards that were a couple years older than me were all into um jimmy buffett like they were huge yeah yeah for sure um had never been exposed

to any like you know any of that margaritaville's type stuff and man that stuff is those songs are seared into my memory from sitting on a guard chair for like weeks on end through the summer listening to jimmy buffett i don't know there's a better place to listen to jimmy buffett than on a lifeguard chair that's kind of it kind of made sense yeah last last summer i feel like there was some cosmic uh intervention into my family's life around jimmy buffett as we listen we go to the shore back to the shore from texas to jersey in the summers and my wife's parents are gracious enough to let us use um one of their cars and it didn't have an aux cord or anything so we're forced to listen to serious radio and that was our radio station in the summer was margaritaville

and nice we listened to it all summer and then literally right after labor day he uh kicked the bucket yeah i love that video that tribute have you seen the tribute they did like a tribute concert you know kind of in honor of him after he passed away and there's just like a video of paul mccartney on stage with a margarita and he's just like hammered beyond belief just sort of like walking in and out of like to the microphone i mean i think he's standing next to woody harrelson and woody looks over at him like dude what what is paul mccartney wasted right next to mccartney blacked out next to me incredible he's just doing his like paul mccartney groove you know it's pretty funny you gotta go find it that's that's actually we're gonna get to

the content but now we're just telling music stories another uh live music memory for me firefly i think it was 2014 or 15 um when i saw kendrick first that was firefly 2013 and that was an incredible experience because um one of my good friends at college she worked for the the event company that actually threw the the festival and so we got vip passes it was the first experience with this festival was vip backstage um and then i went back the next year and my friend did not get us access to these tickets but on it's tough going it's tough going back to the real world after you've had vip experience exactly and i had that embedded in my brain so the friday night the first night of the festival the next year that i went uh i remember that experience and

knew i didn't have the wristband but as soon as i saw my opportunity where there was a security guard not guarding the vip section i grabbed one of my friends darted back there and uh we were able to successfully uh remain incognito in the vip section the whole day which ended with me like semi-blacked out side stage that's amazing yeah i always tell people just you just walk with intent walk with confidence through that you're meant to be there you're meant to be better buy a case of water guaranteed you walk you walk past the case where you're like look man i got water these just go this guy's got water he's fine it works every time ah man yeah i've i've finagled my way into many shows just just doing that just with a case of water you know not with

water but you can literally just walk through you realize that like most of those security cards just really don't care they don't care they truly don't care yeah like they don't they don't want any no one no one wants to be confrontational the other occasionally you'll find you'll find the guy that does but maybe i maybe i have a thrill of sneaking into places but uh another great concert september 2009 blink 182 at the susquehanna bank center in camden new jersey um thought i bought ticket bought a fake ticket from a scalper oh no got denied um and then quickly just like walked 50 yards back and then just like walked in nice because people were flooding in that was a great concert weezer open for them oh dang yeah i uh the first two concerts that i like went to

with my friends like by myself without any parents it was uh i think it was weezer on the pinkerton tour which is my favorite album so that just like locked that into place for me for the rest of my life and then the i saw blink 182 on the dude ranch tour oh shit yeah i'm that old so yeah it was pretty great yeah this was i think this was like the first one of their first concerts back from uh one of the times that tom went awol and uh yeah they had already broken up and got back together but yeah yeah yeah this was like pre-travis barker blink 182 i think they still oh right he wasn't their original drummer no no that's right well i want to hear more about this scalped ticket oh yeah yeah how'd you get scammed that's that's so weird i've never heard

of that happening before yeah when you're uh 18 and um drinking underage and the parking lots of camden new jersey there's many people who are looking to take advantage of you saying yeah i got a ticket for you to get into the concert and you hand over some cash and they give you a fake ticket then you get to the door they're like this ticket's fake and then you have to improvise turn around and uh then just bum rush the uh the entrance in in hindsight how bad of a ticket like how bad did it look the ticket at that point like this was 2009 so that was when you were literally printing printing out like a piece of paper with a qr yeah you didn't have you didn't have an apple wallet no right right yeah i uh pretty legit i mean if we got time for one more

bad music story when i was when i was like 16 my friends and i there was like a arizona republic was the still is the main kind of newspaper in arizona and we made some fake press passes that said we were working for like the teen section of there is in republic and we just went to kinkos and and laminated them but to make them more legit we cut out the hologram from a baseball card and just stuck it on the back and it worked we got it like we fully we went we got into like two festivals we got into rage against the machine and you too and then the very last time we used them it was at a another rage against machine and foo fighters were opening up and we getting real ball fighters was opening for rage yeah and we were getting really like cocky with

it because we were it worked so well and so we went for a sound check and we were sitting in this amphitheater we're the only three people just sitting on the stage watching foo fighter sound check and at the end uh of the sound check the security guard came and got us and he was like you guys got to come with me and he brought us backstage and uh tom morello from raging against machine was standing there and he's like what are you guys doing we're like uh we're we're with arizona republic uh teen whatever and he's like no you're not what are these he's like what are these passes did you get a top hologram he was he was like is this from like a hockey card or something we're like yeah he's like get out of here and he's like do you guys need tickets and

we're like yes and he gave us tickets he put us on the guest list but he's like you guys gotta get out of here don't come back until tonight but it was super cool because yeah we thought we were like dead meat and he was actually really cool tom morella called out by tom morella i mean we were raging against the machine what's he going to do like we're you know yeah that's true yeah yeah we're young punks we're we're going to break in we want to see you guys play what are you going to do i don't want to assume any uh thoughts on the current state of tomorella but it is pretty interesting on rage against the machine has uh i think it's become a story of a die hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain

yeah you never know you never know how things end up with uh with uh as people get older maybe some things change i haven't kept up with tom umbrella though i'm not really sure i mean my dad was a massive chris cornell fan so this time at a audio slave yeah a lot of audio slave as well i never saw that pan but that that was like the the bass player from rage was in that or his bass player and the drummer from rage were in that band too right i thought tom morello was yeah oh was it i can't they had so many side bands what was that there was that tom rolla band too with um like chuck d or something wasn't there like a public enemy crossover yeah that sounds familiar is that if i can't remember did i make that up in a fever

dream or something yeah there's something like that no that sounds right it totally sounds right but i can't remember it oh yeah i gotta make sure putting out good information here yeah that's probably that sounds accurate i know there was a band at least where a couple of the dudes from rage were an audio slave i feel like at least that bass player for sure the guy that oh never mind yeah he was an audio slave all right good okay Good fact-checking, Marty. Checks out. Checks out.

Sorry. It's hard when you start telling stories because you can go down many rabbit holes, many different types of shows, festival shows. Yeah. Huge stadium shows. Yeah. Theater shows.

Could talk for hours about this stuff. Sam's got touring stories, too. He's gone on the road, and I've heard a couple of those. They're pretty fun. dog it's we do our waveform podcast and sometimes it's like what are we going to talk about we try to and then we just end up you know talking about whatever and then an hour goes by and it's like i guess we're i guess we can just talk and seeing more people about music or last week i think we talked about toast for 20 minutes i don't know that that was my fault that's what i had a good

buddy one of my best friends from college he was in a pop punk band knuckle puck he was actually the replacement i remember that band yeah he was their replacement bassist and they went on tour and apparently they were massive in japan so they went on like a japan tour and stories from that when my best knuckle puck story is when they uh they came to new york when i was living there they played at webster hall it was the only and first time i've uh done a stage dive which was at the uh the knuckle puck show nice nice i i've never done a stage dive but in my in my old age i've been wanting to i've been going to these shows with my kid and they're like uh you know punk pretty rowdy punk shows and i'm just like i'm i feel like i need to while i still can i

haven't i haven't done a stage dive yet i feel like i still have a window of time where i can embarrass my daughter and stage dive at the same time really fun but i haven't done it yet how did how did it feel did you get did they catch you you did they caught me a drop i mean you know pop punk band and audiences yeah they're down there to mosh and to to everyone's every once while you've seen yeah every once while you see a kid kind of jump off and people just weren't paying attention you'd hear like a oh and you'd hope you'd see a head pop up and make it out all right but yeah no i mean i think knuckleback is a great example of like a small band that had like a very good like under the radar success was able to tour make some money um

but all their money was made like touring and doing things like that i don't know how much they've made over the years yeah you used to be able to make money touring even in a small i mean yeah that's the era i grew up was the i worked at a punk venue where there were still five dollar shows and you could pay the bands you know a few hundred bucks and that would get them to the next town no problem and they'd come home at the end of the tour and have enough money to get them through to the next one maybe they worked at a coffee shop or something too but it was still totally manageable now that's almost impossible you know you really have to well first of all you can't even i mean a lot of those bands would just book their own shows it was pretty easy

to just um there was a there was a book that just had every single small venue um it's like book your own life or something maybe there's another word in there too but uh it was just easy you could just call you know they're like 10 places in texas and you just would do your own routing and you could book your own show and it was really fun that was my first tour we did that we got on with a few of our friends shows we played austin the first show i think i played in texas was it was at uh emos and it was just like calling them up and you know people used to let you do that it's probably some places still can but like so many of these venues now are owned by bigger corporations and they don't allow you to do that anymore you know you have to come in

on a package or something what are the types of corporations is like ticketmaster or like live nation like in phoenix live nation bought up um most of the small venues there so there's a couple i mean there's some there's i mean you can play bars and stuff but you know it just i don't think there's the same network of independent venues that used to exist um there's still some and there's still there's neva um there's a lot of there are some you know but i don't know even that i mean like also openers like the venue that i worked at even if it was a package deal you know like a three band tour tour they would allow openers and stuff or regional openers and so you could call in and just get on a bigger show like lag wagons coming through you have two open

spots we'll get someone from this band from new mexico that's been calling us for two weeks and then this band from from down the street um it's kind of sad that i don't think that happens as much as it used to either quick break here freaks this rip is brought to you by gradually then suddenly a framework for understanding Bitcoin is money by Parker Lewis. I wrote the forward to the book. I'm honored to have done so because it's the best zero to one primer. If you're looking for a logical explanation of why Bitcoin obsoletes all other money, buy one for yourself and maybe a few for your friends. Go to the safe house.com slash gradually. That's the safe house.com safe spelled S A I F the safe house.com slash gradually use the promo code TFTC for $5 off at checkout.

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stores connect your wallets or custodial accounts and be set up in minutes we can also connect our bank accounts our stripe accounts or square accounts to accept fiat as well the time is now freaks. The fiat system is fragile. Invest in the infrastructure that de-risks the future. Invest in yourself. Bitcoin payments with ZapRite. Go to zaprite.com slash TFTC to get $40 off their annual subscription. Zaprite.com slash TFTC, $40 off. And I'm not checking my text here. I'm looking at the ticketing service I used to go to this show last Friday, Dice. You ever heard of that? Oh yeah. I actually kind of like Dice. I brought that up a couple of times, I think, when in sort of the the concept of this thing we just did because it's sort of a similar vibe

um i've used dice out here in new york a couple times they use it for um this record store rough trade has a lot of events and they use it it's pretty cool it's not bad yeah so let's let's dive into it i mean it's a perfect segue not that you didn't provide a perfect segue earlier michael with the uh what was your fake ticket looking like but let's describe like like looks like live nation is coming in and boxing out the ability for smaller bands to actually get out there and get in front of people and then you have competitors like dice that are offering services and then you guys just launched ticket bot um and so let's first describe the problem that is entering the market via live nation um how people are trying to compete with it now like

dice and then what you guys are doing yeah that's a lot i mean i would say it the the monopoly of live nation um and other ticketing agencies like that probably spans even beyond just small artists it probably affects large artists too but in different ways so like in the case of taylor swift we you know all heard the stories about fans not being able to get tickets because scalpers were buying up all the all the seats and then going to the secondary market and selling them at exorbitant prices um but yeah in terms of like smaller acts you know like sam was saying there's no there are no options if you don't um if you don't go through one of these larger ticketing brokers because they own a lot of the venues and they own the box office and they own

the website and they own the secondary market um where all the transactions happen so yeah i think um you know ticket bot is a kind of small modest step by us to try and like reimagine what ticketing could look like using the technologies that we have like lightning and nostre yeah yeah this is yeah i mean this has been like an on i just i reference this every once in a while but this video just keeps popping up it's like a video of kurt cobain in probably 94 or 95 or something i think it was on mtv and someone tells him i always forget what the show is but he's talking about how someone's like can you believe the tickets for that show are 50 dollars and he's just like flabbergasted it's like what who would ever charge fifty dollars for a concert concert

ticket and now like for some shows especially you know higher priced tickets fees can exceed fifty dollars which is totally totally nuts um and michael referenced the secondary market to me i feel like that's the where these ticket companies are getting in probably going to get in the most trouble is that they're buying um they're starting you know they they're buying these the companies that are the secondary markets for their tickets so you know there's even some question i feel like some double places have been but yeah busted on double dipping and that's i mean venue that's that's one of the oldest tricks in the books for venues like venues used to do that they would have scalper tickets promoters it was like a promoter trick you

know the promoter would buy 100 tickets and then and then scalp them on the parking lot and not tell the band and you know that was that was that that's where that idea kind of originated from i would say but it's pretty messed up when like we just i was telling michael the other day my daughter wanted to go see this this band play and it was just a theater show it's not you know it's like i'm sure it should have sold out um but the the the ticket on the resale market was like 36 dollars it was a cheap ticket to begin with but the fees were twenty dollars on a thirty six dollar ticket and that's because it was you were paying the you're paying the premium you're paying for the resale so that the ticket reseller made some money and the the person reselling it made the

money so in some cases it could have even been triple dipping like if you think about it like if they if they're selling the tickets they could hold tickets get fees on that get fees on the second. I don't know. It just, it's, it's just crazy. Like, I think it's the whole thing is getting so convoluted at this point. No one even knows what to do. People just, this is, I mean, we're talking about like a decade old problem, which just keeps getting worse and worse and worse and worse. And the price of tickets are going up. And so that allows the fees to get even more absurd. Cause if a ticket's now $250 or sometimes, you know, you're going to like a taylor swift show or something it's like two thousand dollars or more yeah um then it's it's

not that weird if the fee's 150 you know because it's a two thousand dollar ticket but if you really stop and think about it that's actually totally nuts well like shifting this like a bitcoin or adversarial thinking systems mindset is this essentially is the core of this problem like sybil attacks in terms of like bots just being able to sybil a ticket sale as soon as it's live acquire them or not even bots maybe maybe it's the ticketing companies themselves doing this i mean that might be one yeah that's probably one avenue of attack where um it could be bots it could be i mean there could be just you know scalper farms where they just have a bunch of people with like 90 browser tabs open and they're just waiting to pounce to get um to get the first

run of tickets. Um, but yeah, I think, I think, I think, like I was saying, I think it goes a lot deeper than just, um, an issue where, you know, there are people out there just trying to make a quick buck by buying a ticket and then turning around and selling it at a higher price. I think, um you know i think it it's like every step of the process is now owned and operated by you know a large entity a single entity and it seems like the prices of tickets keep going up um at their benefit at that company's benefit but you know everyone who's putting together the show you know, from the band to the, um, crew to the venue, you know, uh, and the, and the fans, like they're all losing out and not seeing any benefit from those higher prices. So, um,

yeah, I think, I think it's, it's, it's ripe for change. I don't know how that changes. I know there's some legislation being you know moving through congress that um is trying to regulate the market a little bit more but um yeah we'll see i mean i saw like at the latest white house correspondence dinner that um that live nation like live nation had a bunch of napkins that they had printed for all the journalists and the politicians that were at the event um it's basically you know kind of making the case for live nation being a good company So it's difficult to see how the legal political approach really improves the situation when you have a company like that that just has financial ammunition to basically make the rules as they see fit. But, but yeah, I think, I think most consumers and artists are aware of this problem. So like, now that, now that like, it's blatantly obvious that, that there's something wrong, it seems like people are open to looking for alternatives to try and make it better.

yeah it's almost poetic it's like quite literally a gatekeeping problem where you have a company really putting a gate between the audience the venue the artist and charging like a toll an obscene toll to get into to the experience and it's again again just like thinking about the whole experience the audience connecting the art the artists and the venue creating an environment for the artists and you have something that should be mundane the ticket to get you access to that experience actually controlling the whole thing yeah and there's other elements too i mean there's a huge this this this is nothing new but like merch cuts within the shows that that was a thing typically that

started i mean that started because just bigger venues i mean merch wasn't always a thing you could get a t-shirt at like a led zeppelin concert or something but it wasn't an industry like it is now um so a lot of people a lot of bands didn't have merch sellers or merch infrastructure and a lot of the merchandise was was licensed and being manufactured by other companies so in the early days like if there was a bigger band and they would get to a big venue and they would need to sell merch the venue would sell they'd have a staffer and the venue would sell their merch and they'd take a cut of it and then it over over time they're like oh we can just get we can you know make some money here and that was fine i guess for the venue i um

i always sort of rebelled against that and um any deal i ever had with the venue we just had a pretty strict rule like we just won't pay we won't play a venue if there's a merch cut but it's gotten so bad now i mean talk about double dipping and triple dipping um live nation owns the venue they own the they own the company that's promoting the show so they're getting the promoter cut they're getting the venue cut they're getting the rent and they're getting you know parking and then they're taking upwards of like sometimes 30 to 35 percent of the merch cut as well which is like that's the lifeline for most artists especially small artists so i mean think about like a small band um you know opening on on a tour that's opening

up for a bigger act they're also having to to give those large merch cuts to the venues and you know they're following in a van they're following a bus a bus tour in a van and having to do these long drives and you know keep up with everything and if you're ultimately taking that away from them too i mean that's like it's it's more like people just a lot of people just think it's the tickets but it's like it's so much more you know there's just all these layers it's always every single time the band that ends up getting screwed like there's they've dreamed up all these different ways to make money and in every single situation the band makes less the band makes less money and the fan pays more and the fan pays more it's it's

i mean it's genius they keep people keep getting away with this stuff i guess but i don't you know hopefully hopefully the the tides turn here at some point in time because i think at least hopefully people are starting to wake up to all this stuff because it is just total insanity you mentioned taylor swift earlier i've seen shane gillis the comedian complain about this and i had to come out and apologize to his fan base like hey there's nothing i can do i don't know what's happening we're releasing the tickets somebody's buying them sorry they're so expensive um yeah yeah and people are doing like maggie rogers is um um is doing uh like physical ticket outlets for her tour this summer I think yeah there's actually

uh there's a billboard like uh on my way into work yeah and it's cool I mean I mean it's it's cool to see somebody sort of like trying you know people have over the years like I remember uh like Pearl Jam were huge advocates against Ticketmaster back in the day when things really kind of got rowdy in the 90s and probably even through the 2000s with them probably still they're probably still that battle um but it is cool to see when people are you are taking some sort of unique approach to how things work you know or like um i mean talk about palm garden is that a fish did it i went to a couple of their shows um with their baker's dozen tour at where they're based baker dozens residents at madison square garden i know you needed the physical donut ticket to get in

yeah some bands do that i think i think paul mccartney even runs his own someone's got to fact check me on this someday but i i feel like paul mccartney's mpl productions i think he runs his own ticketing as well which is kind of cool it's like he's big enough so he just rents the arenas as it's like he's the production company which is a really cool way to combat that you know but not everybody can do that obviously but there are ways to get around it it just just like everything else it just kind of sucks that you have to do that you know yeah and so i mean diving back to ticket bot i know you guys are making small steps and thinking about solving this problem um i think you guys made it pretty clear that hey we're releasing this product for

some shows they're gonna be happening around or for a specific show happening around the bitcoin conference in nashville and you were very clear like we're just testing this out uh what's going on so you guys are have released something you're communicating to the market that we're trying to solve this problem and using the lightning network and noster um bear with us as we try to solve this so what is the mvp that you released um and how do you think you guys can begin chopping away to solve this this massive problem that's really um ruining the experience for both the um audience and the artist at the end of the day yeah so i think it sort of starts with the the basic concept uh for an oster which is everyone has this portable identity

you have your n-pub and you can use it on any client you can use it on any app and you don't need to be locked into any kind of particular, um, garden. And so we built, uh, the Wave Lake mobile app, which is just a music listening app and an app where you can zap any of the artists that you like. Uh, we built that in a way so that essentially the zaps become a signal for the artist and your friends, it becomes a kind of signal to show who you're into, what music you're into, what artists you're supporting. And we're able to link that for the artists as well to essentially say like, here are the top 10 people who are zapping your songs, for example. So that's something that we're still developing in terms of making music, sharing, discovery, and zapping

more of a social experience. But it kind of goes nicely into this problem of how do you get tickets for concerts to actual fans of artists? And one of the ways we think we could do that is to use that social data on what people are zapping to then essentially create a kind of filter. If an artist wanted to, say, sell the first 100 tickets to their concert to their top 100 supporters, an artist could do that with something like TicketBot, where essentially would just lock out sales to anyone except those 100 identities and then once you know some amount of time passed or those tickets sold out then you could open up you know the next batch to another group of listeners and so on so the way we designed the the ticket bot tool um was to try and just

make it as Nostra native as possible. So it is just a calendar event that we stuck a fee on. We just put the price of the ticket on the calendar Nostra event. It's just one set, I think is the minimum. And essentially if you zap that note, that calendar note, um our ticket bot agent sees it um issues the zap request uh to the user or the payment request to the user that's zapping the note and then if the user pays the zap request um or sorry pays the zap uh pays the payment request for the zap um then we give them a ticket and it goes to their DMs. You can see it in any of the Nostra clients that support DMs. And that ticket is attached to their end pub. So while right now you can only really RSVP to this Nashville event through the

WaveLake app, because we just built the integration for this. Theoretically, any client could support it by just allowing a user to see the event and then zap it if they wanted to RSVP. yeah and to be clear because it wasn't clear to me when i was buying but the one sat quote-unquote price for this particular event is just you could set different prices if you wanted to right yeah we went back and forth on what to do there for this event because there's the you know there's the argument that was made of you know we should make it like a thousand sats or 10 000 sets or something but that's the in the value for value world and it's like do you set a suggestion if you set a suggestion will most people psychologically just go with the suggestion

or if you have some if we had something so low like one sat maybe people would understand that um it's not just one you know that you could just put in whatever but if it was still confusing we probably need to update the the description there but But yeah, the idea is just the, well, confusing, like, um, so I, I did, I did 10,000 sets. Um, I did one, one set or I might've done more than that, but I know I did at least 10,000, but I'm thinking like the technical mechanics, like, um, for the ticketing issuance, like doesn't need to be one set and then you're asked to um do more uh yeah as a value for value model or can you literally just set a price and like here if you do this we'll mechanically give

you a ticket yeah i mean for this event we just set a minimum of one sat so if you zap at least one you can get a ticket um but you could also um you could set any sort of minimum and not issue the ticket unless the zap is for that amount yeah yeah you could have an actual ticket price and i mean michael was talking about something the other day that i thought was cool that i didn't even really think would be possible but it made sense as soon as he started saying it's like even on on a resale market i mean this is getting like way further down the road but since that is assigned over noster to each identity and it's issued by one i'm probably going to be probably botch describing this but you could even set like the max amount that a ticket could be sold for

so if there were to be a resale market you could say like hey this is a 20 ticket or whatever the equivalent is in sats but if you resell it you can only resell it up to five percent above the face value or going in a layer even deeper you could resell it um if you resell it for more than five percent above the face value then it has to get split back with the original issue or so that whoever holy should begin with went back to them so that's like way next level stuff you know but that blew my mind when he started talking about that i was like oh my god this is holy cool yeah yeah yeah it's it's it's uh it's i mean some of this was inspired by um a lot of the some some of the e-cash implementations that are out there for mints and federated mints um you know

the way i understand a lot of those to operate is uh the mint issues you like a token and that's sort of equivalent to um some amount of sats or it's one-to-one um but ultimately that mint is like the centralized authority on those tokens for that particular mint um i think these tickets could operate in a really similar way in that whoever's issuing the ticket is sort of the central authority for that particular ticket. But people are able to interact with the issuer of the ticket in different ways. So not only can you just buy a ticket and then the issuer gives you a ticket in exchange for that, but if you wanted to sell that ticket to someone else, like Sam was saying um the issuer of the ticket could actually burn your old ticket and then issue the new ticket

to the person you're selling to and tie it all together using your identity and then also you know on top of that create rules like you can only sell it for 10 above face value um and then because you know the idea is we want to be working with artists on this we could say like yeah if you sell this um for 10 percent over face value like the artist gets 90 percent of that you know that increase for example um things like that i think um yeah there are a lot of possibilities and it's exciting the other thing that's cool too is the idea of of creating a split on the ticket itself so at the you know you're not even having to wait for that like the split could be issued to everyone involved the promoter can get the 15 the artists could get their cut the

venue could get their cut i mean everything could be could be split in real time just like we're doing with um with music there's no there's really no difference and you just would have to set up the infrastructure for it well that's what i was just going to get at and to think about like trying to do this via live nation not that they would but just running through the hypothetical like for that split to be possible you'd have to have the venue set up an account that's connected like a traditional fiat bank account or stripe account whatever it may be connect it do all that but with this implementation it's literally just spin up a noster um private public key pair yeah attach a lightning address to it and then put your um put your mpub in and you're you're in

yeah it's gonna it's it's gonna be on the venues i think i mean there are other people that are well more way more qualified to talk about this than i am but you know like in my experience briefly as a promoter and selling tickets through e-commerce for for punk shows and stuff it the venue ultimately decides what ticket company they want to use and a lot of them will sign these deals for very little money just for like an advance you know i don't know how much things have changed in the last 10 years but i remember talking to a friend when i was just trying to put together a friend of mine wanted to start promoting punk shows again and i was like i'll help you and we can sell the the tickets on

on hello my my other company and just like i'll just do simple pdf tickets and we can figure it and i started asking my friends who own venues in phoenix and yeah you know it's like well we're this sounds really cool it'd be so awesome to be able to just control our tickets like this and but we can't because we signed a five-year deal for you know five thousand dollars and like a website or something it's like what you it's like what you get out of it um but this just i mean just like the merch problem in with touring and ticketing with venues and most other problems is it's going to take action people are going to have to actually do this and the the bright side here is that there are plenty of event sites you know there's eventbrite there's meetup and things like

that where anyone can just issue it a ticket that's not like the it's not that that's the problem it's um it's just there's no there's no feature out there that um is solving it so it's like it's just a necessary thing it's like well we may as well just use ticket web or ticket master or or whatever because it's just where everybody goes it's what everybody knows and none of these other things are really solving any problems and they don't they're not they're not really helping us out in any way so we're just going to use them but um just like with the music stuff like it's going to you know people are going to continue to use spotify they're going to continue to use traditional platforms and things like that um but some people won't some some people will

start to discover wavelake and some of these other concepts and when those things start working for them i think it'll start a trickle effect that other people will see and other people will take action and just start to decide like hey maybe this is the better path to take like we don't have to do this necessarily and i think in order for ticket bought to work or something like this really to work venues are going to have to get on on board with it you know and hopefully they're able to you know that i mean there's there's always going to be independent venues and if some of them take a stance and just decide not to use these bigger ticket companies um they'll have a better option because in the past there have been other options like there have been a

friend of mine had a ticket company that was really cool and very fair but then it just got bought you know but that's what ends up happening is you will get sort of like a cool solution but then it just ends up getting gobbled up and that's the difference here is this is just an open source thing that anybody can build um anybody could can take what and you know it's on github right now like you want to go build a standalone ticket site and start dabbling in this little bit and making a little bit more feature rich you can you know so i don't know i think there's it's like all these things that are that everyone in this space is working on now like there is actually hope because um you're able to do things where the rules actually have changed a

bit enough that you can probably you can see how you can break away from these old ways and move into something new yeah i remember being too idealistic naive optimistic if you will but i think like the onboard so i wish ticket bot dropped a week before it did um not to put pressure sorry we're already we're throwing a live we're throwing a live event nashville matt and i rabbit hole recap in collaboration with pub key and i don't know if we could get the venue uh on board i'm pretty sure thomas particularly from pubkey could convince the venue to get on board but you can see it like that would have been like for the beauty of noster too it's like we're a podcast um we know that fountain is implementing noster capabilities

and with ticket bot we since it's interoperable noster is and we could literally go into the boost for rabbit hole recap and anybody that's boosting via their mpub we could create a a list of the top 100 boosters of rabbit hole recap and send them out the opportunity to buy a ticket to our live show um yeah in nashville yeah um and like that i mean we will definitely do this in the future not thinking too yeah next time talking well next time maybe we do something business on air uh we're gonna do we should do a comedy show at pub key and test this out like tj miller is really close with thomas and those guys i know they've been doing comedy shows like we get tj i just went to an open mic there on a couple days ago yeah that's cool yeah they're getting

a noster and like the like the east of onboard the hardest part of the onboarding for the venues will be setting up a lightning address i imagine it's very easy to create a private public key pair on noster but then like figuring out how to create a lightning address and add it to your profile is probably the biggest hurdle in new york that's a huge hurdle yeah it's a massive hurdle yeah and like if you can get over that the biggest hurdle which is like figuring out how to incorporate lightning they can easily see this um for bitcoin forward companies like pubkey being implemented and now the apps like primal are making it very easy to to onboard via their integration with strike and it's weird to even say because i've been talking bad about the everything apps the

alley pay the um uh we chats of the world but you can literally build like the everything app that actually preserves your sovereignty um your autonomy and your control over your money within the app um yeah because those apps are just tapping into things they're not centralizing all in one spot it's just connecting to these things that's the that's the cool thing i mean i i'm i'm most interested to see how that plays out because because you can connect everything to everything it's going to be interesting to see how that shakes out and who does what and who experiments with what and is there going to be the like ultimate swiss army knife app that just has all your in it or or is that going to be annoying for people you know i don't know

but it's it's definitely i mean that's what we're working on with the the mobile app hopefully just to at least be able to onboard to noster and a bitcoin in one one swoop you know just make it simple it's going to have to be if we're going to expect any normal people to use it yeah i'm about to i matt and i we did a rabbit hole recap right before this and we were talking about particularly the um the hrf bounties for um chami immense and nostra clients and they were paid out they were released the bounties were announced 18 months ago they were paid out last couple weeks and matt told the story of how he was reflecting with alex gladstein how quickly everything's progressed over the last 18 months like going back from like what domus was yeah 18 months ago

that was a predominant client and um it was very clunky and the only like use case was these twitter like social media apps and now seeing like you guys releasing ticket bot um the um integrating nostrosign in and everything else that's happening blossom prism all these things come into market within the last 18 months not even two years it's crazy to think what can happen if you fast forward and push this into the future. And it seems like a lot more developers are getting to open their eyes to this as well. Yeah, it's really exciting.

I think at the same time, the biggest challenge right now is that a lot of these applications we're building, both for Bitcoin and Nostr, everything is sort of on par with what, I guess, a typical, let's say, American consumer can use today, which I don't think is enough. I think these things that we're building,

these tools that we're building need to be better, need to have a significant advantage over what people are using today, whether that's just frictionless payments or whether it's being able to speak freely or connect with whoever you want without anyone deciding who you can and can't talk to, whether it's being able to find music without a centralized algorithm telling you

what you should be listening to. I mean, all these things I think we're able to improve on with these tools that we have. So yeah, I don't know. I just, I'm just hoping we can keep pushing these products and experiences in a way that makes them just a better alternative to what people are already using today. Cause that, I mean, that's, to me, that's the, that's the adoption sort of, I don't know, the, the way to promote more adoption of, of all of this is just, it's, it's gotta

be, you know, way better for people. I think it's the identity thing is what's going to, it's what, you know, being able to take your identity and own your identity and take that anywhere is really what's going to turn heads when that starts happening. At least when I'm explaining it to people, that seems to be the thing that perks up their ears the most. You know, when you're, especially if you're talking to anybody that creates anything or has ever built up an audience and been burned by a social media platform. you know i have a lot of friends that are journalists that were heavy on twitter and that was their spot you know like they they built up a huge following there just like um someone might build up on youtube or influencers on instagram or tiktok or whatever and then you know ultimately you know that that's a bad idea you know you're if history is going to repeat itself and at some point in time that thing is going to monetize and you're going to have to start feeding an algorithm in a very specific way and you're going to lose all the power that you

had on that thing. Um, you know, hopefully this wave can keep going. So people have enough time to see the potential of building up an audience. Um, but again, it's going to take action. People are going to have to, people have to stick through it. I mean, it's tough. It's tough to go through my feed on Nostra sometimes and just see people trying. I mean, I, you know, I try, I have other projects and stuff too that i post on there and it's like the engagement's tough it's it is growing it seems like you know slowly at least the stats i mean the information seems to be up and down a bit there but at least the screenshots people are posting the last week show that it's growing somewhat though though it's incredibly small you know so

um it is such a powerful thing especially just its connection with bitcoin and lightning For us, it seems like a no-brainer, but obviously, you know, luckily everyone's building so fast, but going to have to maintain that too because you did see a slowdown in development because, I mean, development, the first part of last year, it was just, like, exploding. It went from nothing to everything in a couple days, it felt like, you know, and then a lot of those projects just ended up getting abandoned. But it is cool to see that people like Will and Domus and Primal and Highlighter and all these things are starting to really blossom and become full-fledged apps that people can use around the world and that they'll work for them.

And just I think once they start integrating some of these other things too, it's really going to be cool. You know, that's going to be something that's going to be a head-turner for people as well. when they can interact with their music or they can buy a ticket or they can do one of these other things maybe it's not i mean i'm hoping it's it's not done in an annoying way but it would still be cool if you could just buy a ticket on the note on a note you know directly within within a client without it having to be like a full flight have a full-fledged ticket service in it i think that's that'll be the cool part of the interoperability between the features i mean going back to what you were describing earlier with the chami events michael

It seems like that would be possible if you could just have a button on a note and you were a mint that issued X amount of tokens representing X amount of tickets and you just, whoever pays the invoice, the claim, the first token, duck that out. It seems like a simple accounting thing. It's possible.

Yeah, definitely possible. Yeah, I think that's like the real unlock, I think. you know there's there's these sort of use case specific applications that are built being built on nasa right now like whether it's social or in our case music or like highlighter i think is a really interesting um application as well um but i think it's it's once all those things start linking and sort of playing off of each other um like sam was saying once you have that portable identity and then you have sort of this this i don't know this plethora of ways that you can use that identity to interact with everyone on the internet and interact with all these services

um and you know like you know something we've thought about is like seeing your music feed like in a regular anastra client or seeing social feeds in a music client i mean that's just kind of the tip of the iceberg but um you can see how that could be really powerful i don't know if it's if it opens up like that all-in-one app world or if it's or if it's even something better than that something that you know we're we're kind of not imagining fully just yet yeah i'm sensing uh are we in a trough of disillusionment with with noster um i'm in a place right now where i i'm i think it's still it still has a ton of potential i think it still has a lot of potential i think yeah maybe like generally speaking

we are kind of in a trough where development is tapered off a little bit there isn't that like fever dream hype you know um mentality that's surrounding it but it seems like all the fundamental pieces are in place and it's just a matter of like grinding away polishing and like really honing in the user experience around it for it to be able to do what we think it can do i think that's what it is for me is just knowing how much potential it does have it's going to be so disappointing if it doesn't maintain some, you know, catch some steam somewhere and start working. Cause it really, I mean, for us, it may seem like we were sort of jumping pretty heavily into Noster, you know, right out of the gate. Cause I mean, we launched

in January of 23 and that was just, we had nothing to do with Noster. And then within a month it was like, okay, I think we have to start thinking about this. Cause the main reason for that is because it enabled so many of these things that we thought we weren't going to be able to get to for years like you know the idea of being able to do a ticket or um have i mean even the mobile app we we weren't gonna do a mobile app really that wasn't that wasn't really at least not at least not when we at least not now um but it just started making so much sense that we were just thinking about the social potential like future social elements of this and then it's like oh man we can we can make this app and then we can make the app social and then we can

sell tickets and we can do live streaming and we do there's all these we can implement merch and all this stuff just works together this is exactly what we were dreaming of and it's here right now so i think it's mostly just like you know being cautiously optimistic is a good term i like using lot in my life where you just you don't want to jinx it like you know you have a good thing but you also are a realist you know that it's going to take it's going to take time and it's going to take action it's going to take adoption and people are going to have to if anything's going to change people got to believe in it i mean it's like bitcoin's been going for how long now you know it's like luckily there are enough people to to just weather the storms over the years to get us

to where we are today and it's going to take i mean if we're going to change the internet like because i i i don't i don't i don't really think of noster as a swiss army knife thing i just think of it as like how the internet was supposed to be like you're supposed to be able to interact with things exactly how someone would describe the future of noster so it just seems like such a no-brainer but people have short attention spans that's the problem you know so yeah they do until they're they don't have the luxury to have short attention spans i mean that's something i've talked about behind the scenes with um people working on noster that's matt and i have talked about this behind the scenes i think he'd be comfortable with me disclosing the contents of

the conversation which is it's going to be similar to bitcoin in the sense that it comes in waves where you have events that happen in trad trad fight social media um that force people over to noster i would argue even like you have a use case like better ticket sales and distribution more fair that comes to market and who knows you get one artist one comedian somebody to actually yeah like totally to it and it brings people to it um these events and i mean that's what i've learned with bitcoin specifically over the last 11 years it's just like keeping your head down and working during the bear markets and not that noster has bear markets from a price perspective but from a attention and hype perspective so there's going to be those those troughs where

it's just like keep your head down and keep fucking building yeah yeah i mean i really sorry go ahead michael i was just gonna say like uh i think that's just why we're committed to these kinds of experiments and products like TicketBot and the mobile app is that I think someone's going to hit a killer application at one point. And maybe it's already out there and it just hasn't been honed in yet. But what I like about that for Nostr is there's a sort of, I think, product network effect for Nostr where if one of those applications does take off, then it makes every single other Nostr application that much more valuable to people because you have an installed user base then that is bought in to this portable identity. And now you look around

and, oh, look, there's 10 other applications that do other interesting things that I can do with this same identity i think that's why it's important that you know we keep pushing and you know that it's the reason why i love seeing other developers continuing to push um on things that they can do in this ecosystem is that you know it's it's i don't know i think it's only a matter of time till someone hits on something really kind of magical and and unlocks all that potential it very easily could be us i mean it's like music you know we spent the first part of the show talking about how powerful music is and i was talking to someone earlier today and i i reference this all the time but these social media or social media uh traditional

streaming platforms have have tiers and you know even having a million monthly listeners on a traditional platform is really not that impressive that's pretty like middle of the road artist and if one of those artists comes over and even brings 10,000 monthly listeners with them, because someone like us, we built an easy way for them to do that. That's, I mean, right now what we have like 13,000 daily users on Nostra or something like overnight that that could double just from one artist, you know, and then that effect that you just described is now happening. And then, and then those 10,000 people tell their friends and that, you know, over the course of the next several weeks starts to grow and compound. And then now it's a news story and some other

artists hear about it and people start jumping on. And then someone with 10 million monthly listeners comes over and brings a hundred thousand people or something, you know, just, it's going to be, that's why we just have to keep building the foundations. What we always tell people, we're kind of playing the slow game, which a lot of people, not a lot of people, some people don't like to hear, but we have to build that solid foundation and we have to make sure it's really easy for that to actually happen when it clicks for somebody you know yeah we need uh two rappers in a battle to say hey we're gonna decide this meritocratically um via zaps there's a 10 10 sat zap limit um and you have to have it's one-to-one mpub and the winner is going to be the one who

has the uh the most sats at the end of the day meritocratic we're not going to let the youtube influencers dictate against this battle that'd be so incredible someday someday no it is uh it is daunting but it's also fun to think about those problems i think it's like you described so fun yeah so fun yeah i don't think there's any way we would be doing this if it wasn't fun is i mean just the the idea of being able to even have a microscopic role in potentially changing the way things are is is mind-blowing you know it's like how lucky are we to even be talking about this right now that these are even options yeah and with all this in mind like what are some of the things that you see working within noster that maybe are being a little bit overlooked

or things that people should be leaning into whether that's nips particular use cases um outside of social media what do you think is being overlooked or things that need to be explored more in depth i mean i i brought up highlighter earlier um i i think that's a really i think that's a really interesting application of noster um that i don't think has been fully exploited yet i think and and you know not for a lack of work and development um on it but i think i i don't know i just don't see as many applications of that particular feature um being used much as much as i would expect anybody who's unfamiliar of highlighter what it is how would you describe it? Highlighter as, as I understand it is essentially a way to like tag or bookmark

something that you find interesting on the internet. It can be anywhere. It can be a blog post. It can be a link to, you know, a site. It can be like a particular line or paragraph of an article. And it essentially is an event that describes that particular piece of content and allows you to share it to anyone on Nostr. And then people can, you know, zap you for it if they like it too. And it can, you know, gain visibility that way. But yeah, I think like, and I'm sure other people have thought about this, but, you know, like text highlighting is one thing.

But, you know, what I'd really love to see, I mean, if I had more time, I would build it. Um, but you know, like, uh, highlighting podcast excerpts or YouTube video excerpts. Um, I think podcasts are probably the best use case because, um, podcasting is open. So, you know, if I wanted to highlight like, you know, the two minute story about Marty buying the scalp ticket from someone back in the day and share that out like you could pretty easily do that in a highlight in a nostril highlight and just clip out the two minutes of the podcast where you were talking about that and then um and then i think a client could easily be able to show that to a user and share it to everyone um that's just like you know one example

but um yeah it seems like a great way for people to be able to share content yeah yeah i think it's what i'm trying to think of the what was the one women like this uh social media interest pinterest it's similar it's similar to pinterest yeah yes and then the clip thing like fountain you can do fountain has a really cool clipping service and it's like you know they're dabbling in some nostril stuff and so i think you know you probably will see something like that i think you even can use highlighter for for podcasts to i don't know to what to what extent but i think that's i think the biggest problem right now is just the thing at least my my opinion of it is just these developers everyone's so busy you know we're

so busy with what we're doing everyone's so busy working on their own thing and there are so many options and there's it's you know when you have open source stuff and you have all these nips and you just want everybody to kind of unify on something i think that's probably where one detriment is just it's everyone has their own opinion on how things should be and it can be tough to unify some of that stuff the same goes for what's happening in rss too it's just you know it takes a long time to get everybody on the same page with a particular idea but i would i would like to see more social clients just implementing basic stuff, you know, like our embed. I don't understand why every single Nostra client doesn't have our Wavelake embed in their feed.

It's like such a basic thing that you would want, you know? I don't know. It just would be cool to see that. There's lots of stuff like that, you know? But I understand. Yeah, on a note and yeah like i'm primal on on the desktop if you're if you're looking at a at a note with a wavelake link in it you see this like fully embeddable player that you can zap immediately on the note you can add it to your i can maybe you can't add it to your library yet but you could soon yeah we want we want to you could easily but there's like only one other client really using i think coracle does it and then primal um desktop does i don't know why it doesn't work on the mobile but there's something like that or being even just this someone i think it

was in japan asked me about the library and if it was open and i was like oh yeah it's right here just go have at it and they were working on a couple days later like send a note and they had a full music player happening it's like you click on something then a music player popped up in the bottom as you're just scrolling through your feed and it just starts playing it's like it's so easy to do stuff like that to just add these additional features um so yeah i think but you know that's just gonna take more resources i mean so many of these developers are spread thin with their workload and then financially so it's cool to see things like open sats funding projects and you know getting some keeping these guys keeping

food in these in the mouths of these developers because it's it's tough out there yeah yeah it is uh just having you walk through all this is like and again it's open source project so based off what you both just said it's like is there like a spreading too thin problem um the nasser hasn't is it even a problem is it just um the product of working on in nation protocol yeah it's it's a symptom of just having all the options so if you have all the options that's how it started it was like this explosion where everything has to be a nip and everything everyone has to do everything just because you can i mean that's something

i used to say to my wife all the time she'd be like you should do this you know you're really good i'm just like just because i can doesn't mean i should you know there's i can cure you you have to like curate your life you know like to to optimize it for you and i think That's one trend I'm starting to see, which I think is ultimately great. You know, starting to see developers be like, OK, guys, let's cool it with the it's cool with the nips here. Let's start to get on the same page with some of this stuff because it's just it's going to get it's just will be impossible

at a certain point. Oh, yeah, it's there. You can feel it. It is that you're buying the ticket. Buying the ticket was magical. i was like oh i have my ticket it's so fragile that's the that's the hesitation is like because it is there and you just want to be like i have it don't it's here it is here we have to like be very careful with this you know like we're walking it like a like a plate through like a i don't know

you just have to just got to keep going i don't know i think for you guys particularly um at i think the at least from my arm's length observation of what's going on in the ticketing industry in the music industry comedy like i think people um the artists the comedians are comedians artists um lumping them in together arguing to the point where i mean again going back that chain gillis we i know he was genuinely pissed off that like his fans couldn't get access to his tickets at a reasonable price and he just had to throw his hands up be like sorry there's nothing i can do about it yeah yeah that's unfortunate and i mean on that point we do have a live event let's talk about the positives

we sold some tickets ticket bot works i've got my ticket all right we're gonna we're looking forward to it man we're gonna be congregating in nashville i think our events seamlessly roll into each other yes we end at seven and you guys have start they start at seven yeah both on the 25th right so i mean if you're in nashville on july 25th it's two i mean you get your whole day planned you pop into industry day you walk around you shake some hands and then you go see marty then you pop over and you see see our show can we show our show for a second yes please do ainsley costello yeah joe martin ainsley costello um just loud the higher low and yeah go rsvp on the wavelake app if you don't have it yet we didn't have a wave like app last

time we were on this show i don't think right so go to app.wavelake.com and download that thing in rsvp for the show it's uh very easy it's gonna be a great night it's gonna be uh a great day leading up to be so fun yeah dude i'm excited very excited yeah and we should have copies of the uh the bitcoin record at that event too oh yeah interested well the other thing i mean wave lake radio um the i have been playing around with that that is a cool user experience as well being able to curate hopefully you weren't playing around with it yesterday it was broken what happened was not going to happen yesterday it like fully stopped working

it's working now it's good we made some changes broke a few things you know I mean you have like a live chat and you have people competing to get their songs in the playlist at the top that's one thing that's like the experimenting with these

interactions these incentive systems that's the stage we're in and it's been incredible to watch how you guys have been developing it and really not being afraid to experiment with different things. I think for TicketBot particularly, that could be, like imagine if I was able to like that dice, instead of going to dice, I was able to just go into Primal.

Yeah. Plug into TicketBot. That's exactly the hope. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we have a lot of these ideas floating around. Tickets for a while, merch for a while, you know, other things as well. but that Nashville party just gave us a really good excuse to

get off our butts and build a ticketing system again I wish we launched it a week earlier because we would have had two back to back ticket bot events that would have been really cool well definitely next time alright we started with it we're going along here

best concert you've ever been to best live show oh i mean i'm going back to that weezer show in 96 that was like life altering i was in the front i was being you know like held together by bodies just sort of you know how you know what that's like when you're just not even at some point in time you look down you're not even standing on the floor anymore just there you're just bouncing um that was yeah i mean weezer's gone a bit off the rails lately i would say but that album so you know one of my favorite records of all time

so to be able to see that tour was really cool yeah i think mine would have to be david bowie i saw him you got to see bowie yeah i saw him on what was the album i think it was the hours tour uh yeah that that was the most i don't know i mean bowie is kind of like an alien from outer space and that performance i've never seen anyone carry a room like that in my life it was it was so it was like hypnotic the way he performed um so yeah awesome i gotta put my money on david boy yeah what about you marty well before we get to me he hasn't said a word but i'm curious since were asking around logan what was your favorite live show of all time what is your favorite i've been to very few oh god damn it probably probably the one time i went to acl it was the only time

i was like right in the front of something and what was it uh i don't even remember the name remember it was one of the first people at the beginning of the day one time i accidentally fumbled into a concert so many it's hard for me uh uh that kendrick one was really good i've seen red hot chili peppers like four times they've always been really good and uh nostalgic reasons i saw guns and roses fat axle and they crushed it i was i went in with i think it was the best concert because i went in with lowest of expectations they absolutely crushed it they played uh the secret by the who is during

their encore played all the hits uh citizens bank park in philadelphia i think seven years ago nice i bet that was cool i bet that was quite the show yeah i mean yeah if it's if it's slash axel yeah it wasn't buckethead it wasn't like buckethead guns and roses yeah yeah real guns and roses oh duff mckagan was there yeah that's um close enough yeah who else uh and many others i'll go with uh guns and roses gentlemen thank you for this and this when we started it took us in many different directions but i'm happy with where it went um this is fun thanks yeah thanks for having us on again thanks for us appreciate it as always the support is very appreciated no i think what you guys are doing is

incredible important and i think it's going to work in red i think uh we're going to get there we're going to get there we're going to push through whatever it takes we're getting there yeah all right let's blow it up in nashville in july yeah i'm going to be there see y'all in nashville sounds great be so fun big party let's do it up peace and love freaks