TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #528: Bitcoin Is The Liquidity Alarm Bell with Preston Pysh

Episode Date: August 9, 2024

Marty sits down with Preston Pysh to discuss further spiraling of the debt crisis and how bitcoin can help. Preston on Twitter: https://x.com/PrestonPysh Preston on Nostr: https://primal.net/preston 0:00 - Intro 1:10 - Treasury auctions and stablecoins 11:06 - Potentially solving the debt problem 23:31 - River & Unchained 24:47 - Bank of Japan 26:22 - Accelerating toward the election 29:18 - Gradually, Then Suddenly & Zaprite 30:55 - Global M2 and liquidity alarm bell 50:15 - Bitcoin corporate treasuries 44:10 - Creating a soft landing 47:50 - Bitcoiners gaining influence 57:23 - How far does this cycle go? 1:04:27 - Vote with your node 1:10:52 - The handout mindset 1:13:44 - Optimism Shoutout to our sponsors: River https://river.com/tftc Unchained https://unchained.com/concierge/ Zaprite https://zaprite.com/tftc Gradually, Then Suddenly https://thesaifhouse.com/gradually TFTC Merch is Available Shop Now: https://merch.tftc.io Join the TFTC Movement: Main YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/c/TFTC21/videos Clips YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUQcW3jxfQfEUS8kqR5pJtQ Website https://tftc.io/ Twitter https://twitter.com/tftc21 Instagram https://www.instagram.com/tftc.io/ Follow Marty Bent: Twitter https://twitter.com/martybent Newsletter https://tftc.io/martys-bent/ Podcast https://tftc.io/podcasts/

I think people that control a lot of buying power in the world have finally figured this out. And I think that they're doing everything that they can to take a position size. Now, whether it's a large position size or what, or just a hedge, I don't know, but they're figuring it out. Just look at the people that came to the conference in Nashville. They're figuring it out. This rip of TFTC was brought to you by River. It's the best place to buy Bitcoin.

Go to river.com slash TFTC and enjoy this episode. world of fiat currencies bitcoin is the victor i mean that's part of the bull case for bitcoin if you're not paying attention you probably should be we we were talking in nashville that was a great week and i think you really helped crystallize um an idea has been percolating obviously in many circles but now is more pressing to people in the industry post bitcoin act bill being being put on the floor by cynthia lummis and then obviously rfk and trump talking about um a strategic bitcoin reserve at the treasury but from conversations with yourself pierre rochard jack mallers and then

listening to your episode of what bitcoin did with luke grumman um when i was driving back from from a flight at about an hour and a half drive and listen to that episode and this idea that bitcoin could be used to basically save the long end of the curve because it seems like demand for the long end of the curve um u.s treasury bonds 20 or 30 year and now it seems like even 10 year um based on some tweets that you're sending today is critical um but before we jump to like how bitcoin can fix it i think i saw you were tweeting um about one of luke roman's recent newsletters at forest um uh through the trees the u.s debt problem seems to be getting out of hand and it's beginning to to manifest itself in these treasury auctions and so yeah

the 10-year auction particularly this week yeah yeah the auctions are getting worse especially for way out on the duration that's why they've been doing all the bill issuance um and i mean that's really kind of the canary in the coal mine for just uh if there's if there's major issues you can't convince somebody to buy bonds that they've got a squad on for 30 years at whatever coupon uh and the coupons are super low and people like why in the world would you buy something that that is paying you three percent on the principal when your expectation is there's no way in hell they can they can keep inflation under three percent that's that's the big question and so why can't they sell them without there being just a death spiral of lack

of demand that's wise because nobody believes the math anymore and so they're forced to say okay well, we're not going to issue the 30-year bond. We'll just issue it at 10 years and then we'll issue it at five years. And then, oh no, we'll issue it for three-month paper, right? Because that's the only thing people are willing to buy because they don't even really care about the, I mean, they care about the coupon for sure. I find it fascinating that the coupon's at 5%, which is yielding higher than like the 30-year, which just tells you how jacked everything is. um so then moving a shorter and shorter duration uh issuance is just telling you how how catastrophic this the fixed income and debt markets have become and this is the u.s we're talking about

like this isn't like some third world country this is the u.s that these issues are are at and every other bond market in the world is a total train wreck too so yeah yeah and the recent issuance of or the recent dependence on issuing these bills over the longer duration bonds i mean many people have surmised that it's because they don't want to roll over and issue 20 30 year bonds with interest rates as high as they are but the ramifications of over indexing for shorter durations these bills has had somewhat of a stimulating effect to the economy it's actually injected some liquidity into the economy as well. And I think for the audience to get a feel for just how much they're over-indexing, I think typically the auctions, the short-term bills

are like 10 to 15%, but they've been trending towards 40 to 50% of overall issuance at auction over the last 18 months to two years, I believe. Marty, this was the moment that, uh, cause I had that conversation with Luke before this conversation I had with Paulo from tether. Okay. So in the, in this conversation I had with Paulo, I was like, so what would it take for you to start buying long duration bonds? Like, let's just, cause think about it. He's there buying like three month paper. Um, he's, he's making 5% on all this annualized. He's making 5% on the principle of all this paper that he's buying to just issue more coins, which are in high demand all over the planet because of the saleability and, and people that are unbanked.

Okay. So he's providing that service. He gets to keep the coupon of 5%. And I asked him, I said, and what he's doing with the coupon, which is just pure profit for him, you know, he's making billions. His last quarter, he made $1.3 billion just on the coupons from all these treasuries that he, these short duration treasuries that he's holding. And he's plowing most of all of that into Bitcoin or some type of like R&D tech that's going to further along Bitcoin development in some areas. But for the most part, he's like plowing it all into Bitcoin, the profits. And so, you know, if you're him, it really comes down to, well, if I would go to the US government and say, hey, if you start issuing like 10 year bonds, 20 year, 30 year bonds, but you back it

with call it 10, 20%, whatever the number is of Bitcoin, he's going to sweep the cash flows into Bitcoin anyway. So that becomes this incentive for him to actually be a buyer of the longer end of the curve. So I bring this idea up to him and I'm just like, so what would that percentage look like for you to start buying longer duration bonds if the US government came to you and said, hey we'll back the 10-year with this 10-year issuance with 10 bitcoin in it would you be a buyer at that and marty his response was the funniest thing i've ever seen in my life he basically looked at me and was like yeah no no way in hell he didn't say that he didn't say that but like the look on his face was like give me a break like no i'm gonna i'm gonna keep buying

these three-month paper and i'll plow it into bitcoin like don't i'm not i'm not going to deal with that risk of of like how much needs to be backed right and this guy is is number 18 in the world of buying u.s treasuries like he has more u.s treasuries than like most nation like developed nations that are buying u.s treasuries and and and the pace of his buying is only picking up like next year will probably be number 10 for all i know right in the world of buying u.s treasuries so that tell that for me was such a like landmark moment to like watch his facial expression like literally laugh me out of the room of like there's pretty much nothing they could do to like get me to start buying the long end of this curve well it's it's an insane predicament they find themselves

in because like i said you just tweeted out logan we have the tweet if you can pull it up but for first time in 48 years 10-year u.s treasury yields rose in response to a year-on-year decline in world usd liquidity which in our view was a warning that u.s debt to gdp deficit to gdp and n-double-ip to gdp are so high that u.s policy makers cannot overtighten usd liquidity without triggering a u.s debt spiral so with that context yeah in mind and paulo's response that like there's literally nothing they could do like it is all that says for a person who hears all that like all it's saying is the world has finally figured out the math is basically what that's all saying is like all the buyers of this garbage are do are running the numbers and they don't

believe the numbers and they don't want to own this garbage that's that's what that says so um Um, you know, the thing that I find so interesting, Marty, that's playing out right now is, um, dollar domination is, is for people that are watching this, they're saying, okay, well, like, this is weird. What's really weird is the demand for dollars is only going to accelerate from here. Okay. Despite all of this stuff that we're saying and the, and what you're finding is that the demand for stable coins is going to accelerate from here. I think that the number of, just for Tether alone, is like 120 billion that they're backing with these three month paper issuance that's kicking off 5% coupons. I have no idea what that trajectory is,

but if you told me next year at this time that it was 180 billion that they had backed, it wouldn't surprise me in the least bit. The US needs to accelerate their issuance. The desire around the world for dollars in particular is accelerating. Most people can't, they haven't wrapped their head around Bitcoin yet. They will. It's just that they're so accustomed to the dollar being this apex predator of currency relative to their local currencies. I don't see the cognitive dissidence on like that versus Bitcoin changing like in the coming year. So the demand for these dollars and the demand for people to want to hold these stable coins in these developing nation states with these crap currencies is just going to accelerate. Right. And, and, and what's so fast, so people would look at this and they'd say, yeah, Preston,

but Tether is a central bank, digital currency in disguise and blah, blah, blah. And like all these other things. And, and you know what, I'm not going to argue with any of that. Like I'm not, I'm not arguing that point, but this is, this is the point that I, that I, that I really want to emphasize. The fact that you're watching the, the explosion in demand for stable coins and And the U.S. government, basically at this point, they have to have these stable coins because they're the only buyer of this garbage that they're selling. That is not them winning. That is them losing epically against Bitcoin. And that is, I think, one of the most misunderstood things happening right now, is the expansion and the explosion and this flooding of U.S. dollars into the global economy is not the dollar winning.

I promise you, it is literally the polar opposite. it yeah and it's i mean tether we recorded with tom longo like three months ago and we brought up tether and the market cap was 105 billion i wrote a newsletter last week market cap was 114 it's already at 115 billion yeah i'll check the coin market cap and like quickly climbing and so that's going to increase and even though the u.s government is desperate um they they they need somebody like tether to do this and it's actually terrible because tether is most accurately compared to the euro dollar market where people can create dollars and um back them with treasuries but it's more of a black box where tether is more regimented and that's probably where the um

intimations that it is the the cbdc and is preferable but i'm trying to be pragmatic here in thinking and like walking through the thought experiment that we started the conversation with like that and who knows that this ever materializes but this is the way like whether it's putting a strategic bitcoin reserve on the treasury and then figuring out a way to drive demand for long duration bonds by backing them with some amount of bitcoin maybe 10 20 is enough Maybe it needs to be 30, 40, 50. I think this is actually a roundabout way to solve the debt problem in the long term if you can drive demand for that. And not only that, like this is the way in which you can actually manifest smaller government because the government is getting so centralized and so much bigger because they have this debt spiral problem.

And the only way out is to issue more debt and expand the monetary base. And if you had a mechanism to actually pay back that debt, which Alexander Hamilton envisioned when he created the first central bank, he's like, if we're going to issue debt, we have to figure out the ways to extinguish it while we're issuing it as well. And it seems like modern day government has gotten completely away from that concept and sprinkling some Bitcoin into it seems like the only way forward to make that possible in my mind. i agree i agree but let me let me talk through why paulo basically laughed at me like if i had to sit in his seat and like and explain the math behind why he probably laughed at me this is what the math would sound like so what this what this comes down to is what do you think the terminal rate of bitcoin's buying power is going to be on the other side of hyper bitcoinization okay because until you actually know what that like have a really sound understanding of what

that number is it's so much risk to because you you either don't have enough or you have uh an over capitalized uh i don't know if that's the right word um you basically become a massive beneficiary because you underestimated like how valuable it became so here's here's what i mean by that. For me, when I think about the value of Bitcoin when it takes over, the way we understand five to $10 million today is basically one Bitcoin. In my humble opinion, we're somewhere in that ballpark. It could be 20. It could be one. I don't know. I don't think it's one, but let's just say it's somewhere in that range. And let's just say the number is $10 million of buying power per Bitcoin. So here we are at, and I'm going to use really round numbers. We're

above 50,000, but we're just going to say, here we are at Bitcoin at 50,000. And if we think that the terminal value is 10 million, right? We have to go 20, we have to go 200X from where we're at right now in buying power terms. And that's important because in nominal fiat terms, it's just going to keep running like a German, you know, 1920s German chart. But in buying power terms we got to go 200x from where we're at so based on those based on that math you need a half a percent of backing to of whatever garbage debt you're buying you need a half a percent of it backed by bitcoin just to break even in buying power terms of the bonds value so if you have you know you got a million dollars worth of 30 30 year uh debt um you need uh five thousand is this

math right you need five thousand dollars worth of bitcoin inside of that uh to to basically uh protect the buying power of the million dollars inside of the inside of the bond so if you're saying that uh so where i'm going with this so if you're paulo and you're saying oh yeah the government's coming to me, they want me to start buying long duration bonds, 30 year bonds. And, and it needs to have a half a percent of backing in there. What you're really, the risk that you're, that you're taking on if you're him is that terminal value of, of where you think it's going to end up. Because let's say they don't put a half a percent in there. They put a quarter of a percent in there and they want you to buy it. Well, now you just got the, you lost half of your

buying power by buying that long duration bond. Now let's say they put 1% in there. Well, you just doubled the value of your bond, the buying power of that bond after 30 years. But this is his opportunity cost. His opportunity cost is he can go out and buy three month paper. He can make 5% on the three month paper and immediately just convert it into Bitcoin and not have to worry about any of the risk assumptions of the terminal value. Okay. So that's why when I asked him this question, he looked at me and just laughed because he's like, well, why would I, why would I risk anything in all of this math when I can just, you know, uh, it's, it's almost like, uh, what's a good example of just simplifying things, right? Like just keep it simple, stupid. And, um, I'm

just going to keep buying the three month paper. And you know what? If this really starts to get away from them, it's not going to be a 5% yield. It'll turn into a 7% yield. And guess what? I'm rolling it every three months. I'm not rolling this every 10 years. So I don't have to think about it. I don't have to try too hard. And I'll just keep rolling the coupons into Bitcoin after I receive my payment after three months. So that's why it's so laughable. It's so laughable. And so like, I'm coming up with this recommendation with Luke of like, how could the, if I'm sitting in the US Treasury's chair, how can I get people to start buying long duration issuance? Well, that's how I would try to do it. But I think the players on the other side of the table are so

astute and understand the math so well that even if they did back it and they came, oh yeah, here, we'll back it with 10% Bitcoin or something like that, which would be, based on the math I just described, would actually be pretty entertaining. But I think they're just looking at it so simply be like well i just don't have to think about it too much and just i i'm gonna roll it every three months anyway so who who flipping cares yeah the the chad bill buyer over the uh yeah well these are the guys that are these are the guys that are dominating the trend of of buying the issuance right so good luck convincing the smart guys to like start buying your long duration garbage well the only thing that would change that right is

the curve uninverted right so yeah yeah yeah that's a good point that's a good point so like let's say that the that the short duration started but but for the yield to really kind of uninvert itself in a way that it starts to become uh you know a desirable opportunity cost you actually have to have a real market out there and you also have to have people to change their underlying assumption of what inflation is and they have to think that it's less than five percent annualized and i don't see that happening anytime soon now the only i mean the only way that would happen is if the fed and the treasury let um the economic crisis go without bailouts this time around right and even if they did that marty so what we're talking about is let's let the

cascading impairment happen let's let it really run like let's take our hands off the controls let's let all this fractional reserve fiat hocus pocus literally impair itself 50 like literally have all this liquidity get sucked out of the global economy and like take our hands off the controls and it's death and destruction everywhere let's let it run for months right first of all you're gonna have banks just blowing up everywhere you're gonna have so much like chaos and destruction that like but let's just play the scenario right because that's that's what would have to happen to try to allow some of this to slow down. I just don't know that the response that then has to come out of that

isn't twice as much printing. It's like 10 times as much printing to offset all the impairment and death and destruction in the economy. And so I would suspect that they're actually going to accelerate all of this by taking their hands off the controls for an extended period of time as opposed to slowing it down. Yeah.

No, and even if there is a temporary period where they do take their hands off the wheels and the yield curve does uninvert, prices come down. Even if you're one of these buyers like Tether, you're thinking, all right, maybe there's like a temporary lull, but in the long run,

like even buying a 10-year treasury is still risky because within that 10 years, things can completely change this is something else that's changed just like very recently in my opinion you used to have a complete global cooperation between central banks because it benefited all of them collectively to continue to hey you know what you debase your currency for the next like year we'll allow ours to tighten and then after that like uh jim rickards would use this uh analogy with like you're passing the canteen around the campfire kind of thing like you can hit take a hit and then pass it and then the next person's going to take it now you're in

a situation where the bank of japan and the u.s fad uh both of them are saying we need to drink from the canteen at the same time like we can't even afford for you to take a sip like we need to be sipping out of this somehow at the same exact time and because if we don't like we're both gonna die it's basically what we're seeing right now so that's a new dynamic where where for all of these years they've been able to like kind of pass it around the campfire and now all of a sudden like we're on the cusp of like one of them dying and like they can't even afford to take turns so uh whatever that means this episode was presented by river river is the best most secure place to buy bitcoin in the united states go to river.com slash tftc set up an account today

you'll be able to dca into bitcoin without paying any fees you'll be able to give people bitcoin via river links you'll be able to send and receive bitcoin over the lightning network and you'll be able to set limit orders. If you want to buy Bitcoin at a particular price below or above where it is now, you can set orders to buy Bitcoin when it hits that price. Go to river.com slash TFTC and set up your account today. This trip was also brought to you by our good friends at Unchained. Unchained is building a financial services platform for a Bitcoin standard. They have over 7,000 clients that are securing over 90,000 Bitcoin with 12,000 keys on their platform. Their platform leverages Bitcoin's native multi-sig properties.

Their cornerstone product is their Volt product, a two or three multi-sig Volt, which allows you to hold two of three keys in a multi-sig quorum. That gives you full control over your Bitcoin. They also have an IRA product, a lending desk, and they're rolling out a bunch of other products, including inheritance protocol and sound advisory. So go to unchained.com, set up a call with their concierge onboarding team today, tell them that TFTC sent you and use the promo code TFTC at checkout. unchained.com yeah no i mean obviously that's a big topic in the macroeconomic landscape this

week is the n carry trade blowing out everybody's the n carry trade expert now but i know that you've been covering it on your show and people have been talking about it for some time and it seems like last weekend was the first manifestation of the market realizing that the bank of japan can't even raise rates by 15 bps without blowing up global markets and this is the key point on the on the japanese trying to raise their their rates is inflation got up to four percent it was pretty sticky it's down at about three percent right now but they tried to raise their rates a quarter 25 bps right and they couldn't and it literally wrecked havoc and so think of it like how in the world is that possibly even remotely a free and open market when you're basically

telling the buyer of that to sign up for a guaranteed loss of close to 3%. And that's being generous. And I think the buyer of that is looking everywhere else in the world and they're saying, this inflation isn't going away. And yet they can't even raise 25 bps. As you know, the bank came out and said, when things aren't stable, we're never going to raise rates. well they raised rates when things were were quote-unquote stable so like like what kind of statement is that it doesn't even make sense yeah so are we in the acceleration phase right now yeah yeah we are yeah i think so i think this uh i think this coming year is going to get pretty exciting yeah what uh what do you see playing out

from here because it seems like this week was a critical sort of checkpoint of people realizing like oh shit like we are backed into a corner and there's probably nothing we can do to fix this at this point uh i think so much of it comes down to the u.s election and some of this opinion is because i think markets are so manipulated so manipulated right so i think that when you look at the the current administration and i think that uh going into november the last thing they cannot have havoc in the markets that's why this hole got plugged so quickly i mean it was like the impairment and the sell-off that was happening was like literally setting records and stuff there on monday but then lo and behold the next day the japanese market bid 10 like right back to where it

was like uh so these markets are are if you think you're playing a fair game here in the traditional system. You are not. Congratulations, you're not. And I think that going into the election, they've got to do everything they can to just kind of keep it as stable as possible. When we look at these unemployment numbers, you can see that the system is trying to, the impairment is really catching up and all this tightening that they did for the last two years to try to get the inflation under control is peaked out. You see credit cards maxed out to levels you haven't seen since 2008, 2009. Everybody is hurting for the most part as far as their ability to kind of deal with all of these issues that are systemically global. And so I

think that they're going to do every little trick that they can to try to keep things as stable as possible. If you see the market kind of throw a fit, they're going to step in. They're going to try to plug that hole up until November. I think if you see, and this is as unpolitical as I can possibly be, I think if the Democrats lose after November, I think they're going to let the impairment cascade through the markets. I think if they win, they're going to start pumping it with you know as much liquidity as they possibly can we'll we'll see uh but get ready because like this thing is this thing is wanting to throw a fit almost like a child that's been locked in its room for like the whole day because they did something bad they're like banging on the door

that's kind of like where we're at with these markets right now like it it's throwing a fit it needs liquidity um they're feeding it the best they can to like keep things as stable as they can But yeah, it's about to get spicy, man. the safehouse.com slash gradually. Use the promo code TFTC for $5 off at checkout. Buy it now, freaks. The price of Bitcoin is going up. You need to understand it.

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is fragile invest in the infrastructure that de-risks the future invest in yourself bitcoin payments with zap right go to zap right.com slash tftc to get 40 off their annual subscription zap right.com slash tftc 40 off one of the levers that the fed and the treasury have had to sort of introduce liquidity without doing overt qe is the reverse repo market that seems to be draining rather quickly as well and so when that gets to zero that's another clock that goes off it's like we need to do something here and i believe it's below 500 billion dollars right now in terms of how much security is in there i like to watch uh and lynn watches this too uh the just the global m2 and um it's it has broken out uh just recently uh in the past month uh that has

been going sideways for the last two years the global m2 which i think is probably one of the best indicators of just like global liquidity so they're already feeding the monster uh they're already you know dropping more liquidity into the market from a global perspective um then you just have to like look at all the all the all the m2 from around the world and kind of consolidate it and you'd see that it was going sideways for a good two years um but just like this past month it's starting to break out. Um, when you look at the trend of global M2, uh, it's grinding on this bottom rail that it never goes through. And this is in a, in a Y axis is in a log terms. I don't have the chart to pull up for you, but, um, I find this to be a very important, uh, thing to look at

from a, the money in the system is expanding where the money in the system is contracting. so i like to use this example of monopoly to help people kind of to illustrate and for people to understand uh why prices go down and why prices go up let me uh there you go this is from last year so yeah that's an old chart so but you can see it going sideways and so that top that top blue line has broken out like it is now at new all-time highs um but this is this is the part i want people to really kind of take away when we talk about money okay we're talking about fiat currency we're not talking about like real money which is bitcoin which is backed by energy and is scarce and like all those things but the currency when the currency expands and the

currency contracts the prices of everything inside of that pond think of it like a pond of water that's expanding and contracting, right? Most people think money or currency is that thing in their wallet that they paid for a Starbucks with, okay? It is not. At least the majority of it is not. A very small portion of it are like those monetary baseline units. Most of it are promises and these promises get broken. And when they do, they contract enormously. So like going to this monopoly, everybody's familiar with monopoly and everybody's familiar with when you pass go, you collect $200 and the money supply is expanding and it's getting larger. Okay. The currency is expanding and getting larger. Imagine we were playing this game, but instead

of collecting 200, that every time you go around, you have to pay the banker like 500. Okay. And what's happening is the currency units are being extracted out of the game. And as those currency units are being extracted out of the game, what happens to the property values, the equity, the scarce equity on the board? What happens to that scarce equity on the board? Well, as the next person comes around and they land on Park Place and they don't have enough money, what do they have to do? And well, they become a forced seller of the property that they hold, okay, to come up with

the payment for the obligation and the counterparty that they just incurred through landing on that spot on the board. And so what happens is, is in negotiation. So they go, oh, I have this railroad, I'm going to sell it. I paid 400 for it, but I'm desperate right now. Everybody on the board knows they're, and everybody else on the board is dealing with the same dynamic where they have to pay an additional 500 every time they could pass go. And so they're a little bit worried and they're concerned that they're not going to have enough cash flow because every time they roll the dice, they have to pay out more and more money, more and more currency.

So everybody starts low-balling the offer. Maybe you paid $400 for the railroad, but now you're forced to sell it for $300 because you have to come up with the cash to fill your counterparty and your obligation, your debt obligation. so then we keep playing this in the in the more and more cash is being sucked out of the board the more and more it's being played and so what's happening to the prices of all the properties on that board they're all going down of course they're going down there's less monetary units

in the game and and as all these people are paying out more than they're receiving they're having to recap everything at the table so when we see bitcoin which has no counterparty risk versus all this fiat that's in the system and the fiat is drying up because of this thing called impairment and counterparty risk. This is why in these moments where you have cascading impairment over in Japan and there's literally trillions of dollars wiped out because it's fractional reserve-based credit. This is why Bitcoin goes down in those moments because guess what? Guess what market was open Sunday night. Bitcoin was open Sunday night, right? And you could convert it into dollars so that Monday morning at the open, you could actually fulfill all of your

counterparty risk, you know, derivatives and all the other garbage that people own. They could actually fulfill that in the denomination that was required to fulfill it, which was dollars or euros or whatever. This is why it goes down in these moments of tight liquidity. And this is why it also goes up. Like if we go back to the monopoly example, let's say the banker is adding a thousand dollars every time somebody goes past go. Okay. What do you think is going to happen to the prices? Well, you want to own the scarce equity because it's the thing that actually cash flows you. Okay. Helps you make more money. So you start getting into bidding wars of owning park place or whatever the desirable properties are. You almost can't pay enough for it,

especially if they're adding a lot of fiat into the system. So this is the game. This is the global game. This is how it works. This is how things get recapitalized. And this is why Bitcoin is very sensitive to these liquidity dynamics for people that look at it and say,

oh, I'm looking at Bitcoin. It went down in the moment when I thought it should have gone up. Well, you don't understand how the fractional reserve system works. And if you do, well, then you'd be there buying as much of it as possible because you know what they have to do next.

yeah yeah sunday into monday i was rolling over checking my phone seeing the price and smash buying and that it is counterintuitive right because like bitcoin is this global liquidity alarm system in both directions due to the nature which you described it trades 24 7 365 is extremely liquid and that is a value prop that people really have not internalized yet which is like it's this liquidity alarm bell and when you have these liquidity events where people need to meet margin like yeah they're going to sell their bitcoin first because it's the most liquid they're not going to be able to sell their real estate it's going to take a lot more time to sell their stocks and get the cash into their account or you have companies that allow you to liquidate right

away and move to your bank account within minutes if you need to and that in it of itself is an extreme value prop as a as an asset just generally and broadly and again that's many people pundits particularly on cnbc bloomberg think that bitcoin is this safe haven asset which it is in the long term but in the short term due to its liquidity profile like it's going to be used if people are worried about their portfolios blowing up somewhere else and the beautiful thing is is the people that actually understand look at the accounts that have over a thousand Bitcoin or even a hundred Bitcoin, what were they doing during this, this past week when we had this, you know, swift sell-off, they were accumulating every one

of them, right? Cause they actually understand the game and they understand what the heck's happening here. And so Bitcoin flows into the hands of people that, that don't have overexposure to counterparties. It flows into the hands of net producers, people that actually produce profits in the world um and you know that's that's the game like if you're if you're providing value to society you're able to acquire more bitcoin that's how the game works yeah that's how the new game works that's how the new game works yeah and if you did that monday morning when we when we tipped 49 000 you're already up 20 percent yeah four days less than four days because we're hovering right below 60 000 right now which is hard to believe like bitcoin is

extremely reflexive in both directions and that's right over the long term it i mean more and more people are going to wake up to this and do too the supply demand dynamics is naturally going to go up um and that's just like that's just one demand side thing like that that was another extremely bullish thing not only at the conference but it's becoming more of a wider trend this year which is companies, particularly publicly traded companies, realizing that Bitcoin is this supreme treasury asset and Saylor putting the playbook out there and really diving into the logic behind it, basically looking at the book value of his assets at any given point in time and looking at the premium that shareholders are putting on that via where the stock price

is and just using that delta to say all right we're gonna issue converts or shares and buy bitcoin with that and push that book value up slowly but surely over time and i think that's another incredibly bullish catalyst for bitcoin moving forward i think it's a trend that's going to accelerate as well as these publicly traded companies using a micro strategy strategy to accumulate as much bitcoin as possible and actually have that be accretive to shareholders because if you do it correctly the value of your shares is priced in bitcoin goes up yep if you're a profitable business just like at the individual level if you're a profitable business and uh you don't have to rely on uh you know next quarter we're not going to make any

money. If they're making money every quarter and they're plowing that in that excess into Bitcoin, they can go out and they can do riskier things like, you know, convertible debt. They can go out, they can issue more common stock. Maybe they overpaid and the price was at, you know, 400,000. It came back down to 200,000 for two years and they over, they overpaid for those two years, but eventually it comes back. Like some of those dynamics, you can deal with that. if you have a massive treasury like MicroStrategy and you're profitable, you can do these types of things. And it's almost like you have an additional, like if we were going to look at the balance sheet of a business, we'd say, oh, here's a Microsoft. Okay. So they have this asset, which

is Microsoft Excel. They've got this asset, which is their data centers. And you'd list out all the assets on their balance sheet that produce these specific revenues and profits. You could make the argument that a company that understands Bitcoin and is profitable almost has like this hidden or secret additional asset on their balance sheet because of their ability to tap into public markets at screaming low yields relative to what an individual would pay or just common stock issuance. The fact that they can take some other common stock when Bitcoin's undervalued and issue into the market and buy Bitcoin with it. Because that dynamic is a play on equities being capitalized at stupid traditional risk-free rate yields that PEs of 35 plus or even 25, 35 plus.

They're being capped based off of this old legacy system. And for people that actually understand how broke that system is and how unrealistic the risk profile is for these market premiums and their value in the business and Bitcoin, it makes sense to issue common stock and transmute it into Bitcoin because they know that the cap rates in a Bitcoinized world will most likely be lower than 35 times earnings. So that's that play. That's why it's basically like a hidden mystery asset for a publicly traded company that be able to just go into the open market and issue more stock or do convertible debt deals or whatever. Yeah.

And with that in mind, is this a way you manufacture somewhat of a soft landing? It's just everybody's looking at the treasury market, what's going on there, the yen carry trade, the central banks and governments are in this extremely precarious position, and is it on the free market in terms of individuals, individual companies sort of saving themselves letting the debt situation run its course as quickly or slowly as it needs to and then you look back at some point in the next decade or two it's like oh all the companies that acquired bitcoin as quickly as possible are still standing

and the ones that didn't are in a much worse off position but the net of the net effect of the companies that decide to do it doing it is actually massively beneficial because they're able to still provide valuable services and goods to the market um and if they sort of kept piggybacking on the dependence of governments and central banks to properly maintain their systems that um they get left behind you can see the smirk on my face uh so i think that for this to have a backstop and for it to more gradually transition over to a Bitcoinized world, is it more stable? I don't know. There's arguments for both sides of that. But let's say that you have this, that Bitcoin provides this backstop to the legacy debauchery

and it like slowly transitions over to this new system. For that to happen, I think there's two things that need to play out. First, governments actually have to understand why they need to do this on a collective level, especially the large G7 type countries. They have to deeply understand why they need to back it, why they actually need a market on the long end of the debt curve, like all of those things. They have to understand that. So is that possible? Sure. Are we there right now? I don't think we're even close. Maybe that's me just being pessimistic. I don't know but i don't think they're even close to taking a step in that direction even though uh like kennedy's laid it out like he's laid that out that he thinks that that the yield could the

long end of the curve needs to be backed and all that kind of stuff so you do have people talking about it i'm just very suspect of whether you can do this for a majority of these nation states without their without there being a race almost like a gold rush to bitcoin which then accelerates everything. Okay. So that's the first concern. The second point would be you have to then convince the marginal buyers that they need to assume this risk of buying the long end of the curve and not just buying the short duration strategy that I was describing earlier, where like Paulo was like smirking at me and laughing at me. He was like, why would I do that? I don't have to think that hard. I can just take this really low risk approach and just keep only buying the short

duration stuff. And so the two of those things combined is why I'm a little skeptical as to whether it's going to serve as a backstop for this like slow transition over to this new system. But again, I might be, you know, I'm a hardcore Bitcoiner like everybody else. Maybe I'm biased, whatever. But those are the two things that I think have to happen in order for it to maybe slow roll a little bit and that's not my base case no it's not mine either trying to put white pills out there but another white pill is like that doesn't happen and you have this massive reset of asset valuations particularly hard assets that people need to produce goods and services in the economy and i think ter demeester has articulated this the best is that as the price

of bitcoin goes up like in terms of where bitcoiners stand on the economic rungs just they get higher and higher in terms of where they fall in the top 10 top 5 top 1 0.1 eventually as bitcoin gets into six figures and um you have to imagine bitcoiners were smart enough to get into bitcoin um at any point between 2009 and now and that was a wise decision from an economic perspective and if you do have a calamity in markets and people are for sellers of assets bitcoiners can swoop in get them at good valuations and hopefully run good businesses and come in and the warren buffets of the late 2020s early 2030s in terms of coming and buying cheap assets and making sure that they actually run profitably because bitcoiners have that mindset like

bitcoin is the opportunity cost i'm going to go buy something it better be producing cash flows of profits that i can shovel back into bitcoin one thing's for sure the just by the sheer way that the fractional reserve legacy system works there are so many zombies out there business-wise that uh i mean they're going to be just decapitated in this transition like massively decapitated and um when i look at this especially from an infrastructure standpoint when you look at the US or you look at Europe and you look at a lot of like developed nation states, they're going to have to retool all of that infrastructure through this transition where a lot of these businesses would have just gone belly up if there wasn't this fiat printing press just keeping everybody

alive and basically like a mother bird just feeding all the babies all day long. So that transition of all that capex all that physical stuff is going to be uh quite a burden for developed nation states for uh for uh the global south where you don't have as much infrastructure and you are almost starting from like a clean slate i think that that's going to be a tremendous benefit as more and more capital flows into these markets. And I think that it's going to be a benefit because they don't have to retool and re-engineer something. It almost be like I have a complex machine behind me. And through this transition, I have to figure out a way to still make it useful when I have to re-gear it and redo all these types of things. And that's a lot of

work. That's a lot of effort to do that. But if I could just literally start from nothing, it's actually i can build it way more efficiently and more quickly and more effectively for the value prop to society so i think that's a little bit of the yin the yin and the yang for uh like what it's going to be like to go through this transition from a very developed nation state versus one that's not um and uh it's going to be interesting to see how the world basically retools itself and re-engineers itself from an infrastructure standpoint yeah yeah i have dreams tour and and i have dreams of um starting a brick factory to uh yeah because the uh we had a an event at the commons earlier this year with austin tonnell um who does incredible brick masonry and one of

the things he said is like in this fiat world where look at like where i'm at right now this house was built 20 years ago plastic siding plastic dividers like you the incentives were such you just buy the cheap crap and disincentivize the more expensive but more durable building materials like brick and that's one thing that austin helped us realize is that like it's hard for him to find good brick because there's no brick factories anymore because everybody's been disincentivized and that's one thing where yes the topics that we're talking about can be heavy in the sense that we're talking about a debt spiral and economic collapse and not economic collapse but a repricing of many assets companies and

financial assets that exist in the world but it's a necessary re-architecting of the incentives to go invest and build not only durable companies but companies that produce durable goods that can lead to durable housing and other things in the economy yeah totally what worked before is completely antithetical to what's going to work moving forward. And, and I think if you were looking at, uh, you know, where, where did that pendulum peak and where is it starting to swing back? I think that COVID might be a pretty good, uh, you know, 2020 you had the, you basically had the, the fixed income markets pegged themselves at like 50 bips on the 10 year treasury. I would say that that was literally the peak of the bull market and fixed income of the legacy system.

And I think everything spinning the opposite way from here on out is only going to pick up steam. So, you know, how did you make money in masonry while you came up with the cheapest cost cutting that still looked like it was real brick, even though it wasn't, it was just complete garbage that worked, especially at the very end of that cycle. So like, what's going to work moving forward? Well, that stuff is still going to work as we, as we're coming out of this. But as you get further and further, 10 years from now, like there's going to be demand

for like higher quality building materials because the pendulum's now swinging the other way. And so people that are listening to this that are wanting to create value in society moving forward, I would just tell you like take a close look, examine what worked really well for the last 40 years, invert it and try to make sure that you get your timing right

because a lot of the incentives are just being completely rewired, almost like you microdosed a human's brain and it's like rewiring itself or something. Yeah. And I think we particularly have a front row seat to this being involved with 1031 and EgoDeath and applying this framework to the businesses that we're investing in that are building Bitcoin infrastructure. And that's why I feel very fortunate to have the position that I do at 1031. And I'm sure you feel the same way with EgoDeath is that the founders

that we're backing are hardcore Bitcoiners and internalized this inversion that you just described like bitcoin is the hurdle rate not only for investments that you're making in public equities markets or anywhere else but if you're building a company and you have to allocate capital to hire new people or invest in certain r&d you have to weigh the opportunity cost of does it make sense to spend this on a new hire a new r&d effort or should i just buy bitcoin And that really forces the leaders of these companies and the people working with, excuse me, within these companies to be as efficient as possible from a capital allocation. Yeah, it better be a value prop because if it's not like good luck out pacing 50% or whatever hurdle rate you want to assign to Bitcoin, but I would say it's like 50% annualized. Good luck.

Like that's one hell of a hurdle rate. I, you know, I did traditional investing for all these years before I even came into Bitcoin and it was like, you know, a hurdle rate of like 10% was pretty aggressive. 15% that was like, you were, you were performing really well. And like 50% was like, literally you get laughed out of the room. But like, I know from an investment standpoint, especially in early like startups, like if it's not that, like, I'm sorry, it's just not enough. It's not enough of a return to like, yeah. i mean jack mallers from strike he spoke at the park at our event early he had it even higher he's like our hurdle rate like 65 it's like when we allocate capital it's like do you think that this investment this new hire this new product can create 65 growth on our revenues and it's like holy crap when you put it that way but that just like having that framework alone is again a complete inversion to yeah the way of the vc world for the last three to four decades which was raise as much money as possible don't worry about revenue don't worry about

profitability just acquire new users and pump those active user numbers as much as possible marty this is the crazy part is people who are listening to this would be like well that's because they're in vc right but i can tell you right now if you don't think michael saylor's hurdle rates at like 50% for what he does with his profits, you don't understand Michael Saylor and you don't understand what he's doing. Because even as a large cap company, and I would argue this is for every company in the world right now, their hurdle rate is 50%. Whether they know it or not, that's the hurdle rate, at least in my humble opinion. And I think it's safe to say most people do not understand that that's their hurdle rate. They're probably making otherwise decisions.

no way no way so where do you think that where do you think we go this cycle because it does i mean and i've talked about this uh on a couple shows this week but it really hit me um at the conference we did a live rabbit hole recap and that was a great sort of event to compare to the first bitcoin conference in 2019 in san francisco where we also did a live rabbit hole recap and in nashville this year we sold out a venue 600 plus people incredible show in 2019 the conference was literally in a parking garage in san francisco and we did the live show on a picnic bench uh with really cheap mics and it was just literally there was probably like 50 to 75 people huddled around this picnic bench while we're doing a live show the glory days yeah the

glory days but it's only five years ago and to think that in just five years this conference went from a parking garage uh in san francisco where the keynote speaker was alex mishinsky uh zach prince and now fast forward five years it's in nashville tens of thousands of people uh presidential candidates speaking and talking about how they would acquire bitcoin like this this is what hyper bitcoinization looks like yeah and totally like when you're in the industry and you're uh involved in the day-to-day minutiae of trying to push things forward it can get um i don't want to say disheartening but you can lose perspective of how fast things are actually happening and i think this year's conference for me personally was a huge zoom out moment like holy

crap we've come a long way in a relatively short amount of time which then begs the question like where do we go from here like if it's accelerating like this and you have all these fundamental structural problems in the incumbent financial and government debt arena like the thing is is it's not linear so like when we're looking at the data point from five years ago to this data point people would look at that and be like okay so in five years maybe it's here it's not linear this is exponential so whatever growth we had over those last five years it's going to even be more aggressive in the coming five years like i think it's going to be way more aggressive and uh you know you can you can continue to listen to this stuff and sit around and be like yeah

they're like i can't refute anything they're saying and then not take action or you can take action. And people need to take action, especially right now. I think by the end of 2025, it's going to be gangbusters, man. I don't know what price it is in fiat terms, but I think that the last cycle had a lot of shenanigans. I think the last cycle had a lot of government shenanigans that were disguised as corporate shenanigans. And what evidence I have for that, I have zero evidence for that. It's just a hunch. Um, but if true, and if there were, you know, a bunch of selling that normally wouldn't have happened, uh, without, you know, some real, uh, mysterious and bad actors involved. Um, cause what that, what that created in my humble opinion is, is a whole lot more

selling than what you would have saw. And I think you had a whole lot of, uh, uh, supply suffocation that's happened through that process. Heck, I even think that you have a lot of that still happening, especially with these, these, the size of these ETFs, the fact that they never have an outflow day. They just, you know, they just keep stacking more Bitcoin per, per share of, of ETF that's out there. The fact that you have Germany, you know, basically dumping their bags. And then the next week, the department of justice is dumping their bags and, you know, all the lawyers will tell you, Oh, it was forecast that we should have known this was, I'm looking at, I'm saying this whole freaking thing is so corrupted and so orchestrated so that the people that have

finally figured out what the heck's happening. And let me preface this. I think people that control a lot of buying power in the world have finally figured this out. And I think that they're doing everything that they can to take a position size. Now, whether it's a large position size or what, or just a hedge, I don't know, but they're figuring it out. Just look at the people that came to the conference in nashville like they're figuring it out so hang on because uh you can only mask things for so long uh especially when the entire blockchain of bitcoin is auditable you can see how many coins there are you can see the public addresses and um hang on hang on i think it's i think it's going to be really exciting yeah it has been interesting again the five-year

change has been massive like you just mentioned the people that were at this conference were not at the conference five years ago and that's a bit disconcerting for some people that have been around for a while but i think it's important to help bitcoiners have been around for a while sort of uncomfortable with uh the people that are coming to bitcoin understand like this is like you said an open permissionless system and the value prop of bitcoin is so strong that you have to expect that these people are going to wake up to it and want to get exposure to it as well and it's not a bad thing if anything it's a validation of everything we've been opining about for the last 15 years it's people are finally waking up to it yes you may not agree with how

their businesses have been run and what they've done to the financial system up to this point but like you just mentioned they realize something's wrong and there's only one escape route and it's be a Bitcoin and they're going to use that if they understand that and have access to it. They're finally getting wrecked in fixed income. Like it's been an absolute bludgeoning and that's the trade that's always worked for their entire life. And I think that that reckoning over since 2022, like where they're just getting crushed is one of the main reasons why they're desperately searching because they're looking at equities and they're saying, oh, I don't want to pay 35 times earnings. Those yields are absurd. They're terrible. Is it going to keep going up in nominal

fiat terms? Yeah, it's probably going to go to PEs of 45 on this next two years or three years. It's only going to get crazier. But they're looking at this and they understand the math and they're saying, I got to go somewhere. There has to be something out there. How does this thing resolve itself? I'm getting my face ripped off on all these bonds that I used to make so much money on and that's why some of them are slowly starting to figure out that this is where this is all moving um and and i think that that's only going to get more and more emphasized as as fixed income becomes even more terrible moving forward which it definitely will so yeah yeah and this is again it's disconcerting for a lot of people but

you have to expect it like anybody can use it they're going to use it and this is beneficial Overall, people worry about all of Wall Street getting into Bitcoin being a threat to the decentralized and permissionless nature of the protocol, but just be vigilant and make sure that you're doing your part to support open source wallet projects, help distribute hash rate as much as possible, run your full node. And it's counterintuitive, but all of this money coming in is also massively beneficial for the small individuals who are using Bitcoin, whether that's here in the U.S. or in emergent markets like Bitcoin price going up benefits everybody who holds Bitcoin, the large institutions and the plebs, if you will. Marty, everything you just said is how you actually vote. That's modern voting right there. right if somebody says press the g vote no i run my own full node of course i voted yeah that's how you do it like we have got to suck the monetary energy out of this this disgusting beast which is the legacy fiat fractional reserve credit-based boondoggle

system and uh run your own node you know if if you can mine mine like do everything you can to support this system uh and ensure its decentralization and i i just don't know how else you can go about making a better world than than doing those activities that you described no and i do think there are people not only in on wall street but within the government i think the park the the fireside conversations that happen at the park with cynthia lummis senator haggardy governor bill lee the attorney general of tennessee um mr lyash from the tennessee valley authority like particularly at the state level there are politicians that recognize that things are pretty bad at the federal level and they're doing their best to basically bolster their

local economies and recognize that bitcoin is a way to do that and they want to be be receiving Bitcoin businesses and individuals with open arms and actually working with the industry. A lot of people thought the conference was a lot of pandering, which there definitely was a lot of pandering. And there were many politicians in town that week to raise money for their campaigns heading into an election season. But there was also genuine engagement in terms of an open two-way conversation, at least between the politicians from Tennessee in the community really trying to constructively walk through like what can we do to make business easier for you and how can you guys help us achieve some of our goals particularly around

power generation expansion and things like that huge shout out to rod to uh matt odell uh all the people there at josh at bitcoin park uh these guys are uh wow if you've never been to bitcoin park in nashville i can't talk it up enough it's unbelievable um and if there's a state that has their act together it is tennessee um these people i can't even tell you how many times i've been to bitcoin park and somebody either either the senator themselves are there or somebody from their staff is there trying to truly learn what is this movement all about. It's not fake. I've been up there enough times to be able to tell, do they just want money or are they actually trying to understand this? And I'm telling you, well, it's both. They probably do want money, but they're

really trying to understand it deeply. At least eight times I've been up there and every time, somebody at least somebody from the staff of a u.s senator or a representative is there trying to understand it so that's bullish like hey that's good like uh am i pandering to them of course not like hey if they figure it out they figure it out um but there's there are people especially in the state of tennessee that are really leaning into this uh some other states have a lot to figure out yeah and this is and that's what you want to see too the grassroots it's you don't need a dick tot from the federal level to say all right you guys can play with this thing have fun playing with your bitcoin and your crypto and we're going to give you the

green light like that is a manifestation of a grassroots movement individual state saying all right we're going to do the homework we're not going to be dependent on the federal government to lead the way here we're going to we're going to do our own homework and try to lead ourselves and make sure that we're not dependent on anybody outside of these borders. I'm laughing because you said play with your Bitcoin, which was the Trump quote. God.

Tell me you're all playing with your Bitcoin. It's so stupid. Yeah. It was, but I was there for a speech and it felt like a 30-minute stand-up set with some policy talk at the end. There was, yeah. There was a feel like that, yeah.

But he did acknowledge something that I think was like a good signal, which is that like what you guys have done in 15 years and paraphrasing here, obviously, but like the vitality of the community and the love of freedom and really trying to take action to make sure that freedom reigns in the United States is inspiring. and yeah it is it's not going to be easy i'd say i think again hearkening back to all the structural financial problems that we discussed earlier like it's not going to be easy it's going to take rolling up your sleeves getting your hands dirty and actually going out there and building the new system that we will eventually transition to it's not going to be a smooth ride but it can be you can make it smoother by rolling up your sleeves and getting the work I think the biggest challenge this country in particular has, and really any kind of developed nation at this point, the biggest challenge that they have isn't getting Bitcoin on their balance sheet or incorporating it into the yield curve. Like all those things are solutions.

The real issue is the cognitive conditioning of the free handout. How do you turn that around quickly when everybody, not everybody, I hate using the word everybody, a large portion of the populace has become addicted to the money printer, to the heroin of the money printer. that's going to be the thing that's really difficult because let's say you load up the treasury with bitcoin and you well positioned yourself and all these things which you which you can't just turn on a dime like what i just described which is having a bitcoin strategy is the minds of all these people that are looking for a handout that's the thing that's going to be really challenging because those are the people that are going to drain that treasury faster than you can blink your eye yeah and that's i mean that's the and something i think about often is

like i think it's objectively true you have to find a way to make a convincing argument that all these handouts are making them worse off i mean obviously you have sites like wtf happened in 1971 thomas soul has been beating the shrum for decades but there's um a bunch of cognitive dissonance that exists that for some reason or another doesn't enable people to realize that this is actually not the long-term benefit of their overall quality of life or economic standing and i think they're i don't know if we don't need to like think tank this but they're waiting not waiting but like trying to think through like what is the the killer narrative in terms of helping people realize that this actually is not good for you despite the fact

that you think it may be that's the thing that doesn't turn on a dime that's the thing that's going to take time because you have to you have to recondition them to think in terms of long term as opposed to short-term interest at the expense of the long term and self-responsibility and self-ownership like all of those things are wrapped into that that issue that plagues developed nations right now yeah i mean when you just look over to venezuela what was a very strong developed economy at the beginning of this century did not take long for it to devolve um into a hellscape less than two decades and i think that's what people in the united states have to realize and come to grips with is we're not immune to that like that could happen here and we may be in

the process of that happening here just the earlier stages of like venezuela 2006 2007. yeah totally so you're optimistic uh am i optimistic for myself and my family and like my close friends that are big yes very optimistic am i optimistic on a net basis for society i don't know i am long term for sure in the short term i think there's plenty of pain to to kind of come uh so it's i guess it's a nuanced i'm not trying to avoid the question but it's very nuanced depending on like what scale or like what level i'm kind of viewing it um but you know i think

that it's very optimistic that we're that we're gonna have a way more fair system through all of this way more fair and uh way more constructive um because at the end of the day if you create value like you you get to you know keep it and you can use it on a rainy day however you see fit as opposed to it just constantly being stolen out of your pocket without you being able being able to control it so it's very exciting from that regard i'm very optimistic with respect to that yeah we're gonna win it's gonna take time uh it's gonna be a bumpy road but um we're the generation that has to uh right suffer the consequences of over a century of poor capital allocation and decisions at the monetary system level um

you can't pick it it's not like you're born you can pick to be born at a particular point in time but it's just something we have to deal with and i think yeah like you said the quicker people recognize this and make the mental switch to be productive and try to work on the solutions the better there are definitely multiple paths through which this transition can go longer shorter medium term and i think it's up to individuals taking agency and really internalizing these ideas and taking action to that will dictate what the transition looks like and how quickly or slowly it happens. Yeah. Just take ownership. Like you can, you can make this just an incredible experience for yourself moving forward. You know, you just have to take self-responsibility. You

have to provide value for the world. And then you have to, you know, store that value in something that's desirable and, uh, accretive. And I think we know what that last part is. Maybe some of the other stuff people have to sort out, but, uh, when an ex Marty, I would, if I could pick any point in time to live like this is it baby this is it like why in the world would you not want to be in this moment right now this is insane this is incredible how exciting as uh lord little finger balish once said chaos is a ladder um that's right you can climb that ladder if you know what you're doing at this particular juncture in time which the rest i think um i think you're doing an incredible job to help as many people wake up to this so really appreciate you coming on and

talking through these ideas today, because it was a joy hanging out with you at the park in Nashville and talking about some of these ideas. Likewise. That's the most exciting thing, is like you're, Bitcoiners are very solutions-focused, and that's what gives me optimism. Yes.

The ideas don't stick immediately, but you're thinking of ways to get creative, think out of the box, and help drive solutions to a world with structural problems. Well, thank you for that. And I feel the same way about you, buddy. Truly, truly.

This has been just fun, really fun. And I'm looking forward to playing darts with you and Riga, by the way. Yes, yes. I think Paul Toi's gonna be there too. Maybe we can get him- Yeah, we need to get Paul. We need to get the gang together and play our darts.

Yeah. To let you know, I've been practicing. My cousin has a dart board in his garage down here. We've been playing all summer. Did you play the game? Did you play baseball? Oh, you've been playing baseball. Okay.

Yeah. Not killer. Not killer. My favorite game. Yeah. And that's where you get like preordained numbers and you got to. Yes. Well, you throw it.

Yeah. You throw your number that you threw. Yeah. And then it's trying to kill the other players. Yeah. Yeah. It's a fun game. All right.

darts in two weeks in rego cannot wait can't wait um appreciate your time thank you sir and appreciate uh you bringing me on your platform i really do all right peace and love freaks