TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #563: Holding The Keys To Your Speech with Miljan Braticevic

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

Marty sits down with Miljan Braticevic to discuss Primal 2.0. Miljan on Primal: https://primal.net/miljan 0:00 - Intro 0:36 - Nostr is more than social media 10:04 - Why Nostr is better 20:50 - Bitkey & Coinkite 23:10 - Building Primal with open source ethos 27:52 - Power user functionality 37:08 - Doomscroll algo vs custom feeds 44:53 - Zaprite & SOTE 46:26 - Nostr in the context of Elon’s site 51:23 - Nostr/bitcoin symbiosis and snowball adoption 1:02:00 - Fountain/Primal and how Nostr promotes cooperation 1:07:09 - Why openness will outcompete centralization 1:12:48 - Bitcoiners are the best set of users for Nostr to start on 1:21:10 - What will bring the suddenly moment? 1:26:21 - Get your legend status Shoutout to our sponsors: Unchained https://unchained.com/tftc/ Coinkite https://coinkite.com/ Zaprite https://zaprite.com/tftc Salt of the Earth https://drinksote.com/tftc Join the TFTC Movement: Main YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/c/TFTC21/videos Clips YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUQcW3jxfQfEUS8kqR5pJtQ Website https://tftc.io/ Twitter https://twitter.com/tftc21 Instagram https://www.instagram.com/tftc.io/ Nostr https://primal.net/tftc Follow Marty Bent: Twitter https://twitter.com/martybent Nostr https://primal.net/martybent Newsletter https://tftc.io/martys-bent/ Podcast https://www.tftc.io/tag/podcasts/

you've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free if you talk about a fed just gone nuts all all the central banks going nuts so it's all acting like safe haven i believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency bitcoin wins in the world of fiat currencies bitcoin is the victor i mean And that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin. If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. It's chaos out there. I was just telling you I got fed some doom on the X feed, on the X algo.

I was an Oster previously, so I had no idea about it. Yeah, big, big assassination here in the United States. United Healthcare, CEO, taken out in broad daylight, midtown Manhattan. Chaos. It had Logan and I doing our Bane voices. Perhaps you were wondering why you would shoot a man before you threw him out of a plane. But I was trying to think of where to start this conversation.

I actually think, I was thinking about it last night. I sent out a note on Noster. Because obviously Primal 2.0 is out there. We're going to get to that. But I think it's been about a year, believe it or not. This is on me, hand up, since we've had somebody on the show to talk specifically about Nostra, maybe a little less than a year. And I think it's important, particularly for this audience, many of which are already on Nostra, power users, but there is a subsection of this audience, at least, which is Nostra curious and not full on in the ecosystem.

And I imagine still has this idea in their head that Nostra is simply a social media competitor, a competitor to X, Facebook, whatever it may be. And I think the time that I spent at Nostriga earlier this year at the end of the summer really highlighted to me that there has been this tectonic shift in terms of where the protocol is, where it's going, and the expansive use cases that are coming to market every day. And so I think having you on the show, Miljan, you're immersed in the space, I think, to start for anybody out there who's not a Nostra Power user or isn't on Nostra yet, to sort of quell this idea or squash this idea that Nostra is simply a social media competitor. What is the state of Nostra as it stands today in your point of view? Well, first of all, thanks for having me on the show. i'm delighted to be here um regarding noster kind of what it is how it's perceived out there yeah i think probably the prevalent solution oh sorry the prevalent view that most people who are aware of noster have about it is that it's like a twitter competitor or maybe a blue

sky competitor or something like that and this is probably the way it's been talked about mostly like out there in the media as well as the first breed of applications that was launched were very kind of social media centric so that's kind of understandable that the majority of the people have that view but noster is actually much much bigger than that noster represents our opportunity to fix the internet it's it's it's that big um and maybe when we think about it maybe it makes sense to frame the problem kind of frame frame the the situation we're in um where um the internet kind of started off as this egalitarian network where all the nodes are equal and users have agency. But it has devolved into something much different in the past couple

of decades. So I would probably identify maybe top three problems that the internet has today that Noster has the potential of solving. The first one is user sovereignty. So given that the internet has devolved to this situation where it's essentially controlled by a dozen big companies, companies like Twitter, Slash X, Facebook, Google, etc. A handful of companies basically control the entire internet, which means that all of our identities, all of our kind of online lives and all the content that we post exist in these silos. And all of our user accounts are controlled entirely by the owners of these silos. So that's kind of problem number one that needs to be addressed. This isn't the internet we signed up for. So Nostra gives us

the opportunity to have every user control their own identity and their own content. The second one is one of authenticity. So when you post something on these legacy platforms like Twitter, let's say, I'll pick on Twitter maybe a little bit, but the same idea applies to all of them. When you post something on Twitter and the users who read that content don't know and can't know that it is actually you who posted it uh you know it's kind of wild that we have heads of state announcing very important things or like uh uh prominent uh people out there where there's no assurance whatsoever that they actually posted it you probably remember the funny episode we had

with the SEC, the account either getting hacked or something else going on. We don't know what actually happened. But the fact is that whoever controls Twitter, so a company or maybe one person, has the ability to post from everyone's account. That's just crazy, right? So there is no way to verify the authenticity of any content that's published on these platforms. And this is going to be a bigger problem as we move along because of the proliferation of AI content, the deepfakes and all of that. Like you and Matt talk about it a lot on RHR, where we're just beginning to have this massive problem there.

And again, Nostr has a solution for this because all users, all Nostr users hold their keys and all content posted on Nostr is assigned by those keys. And you can cryptographically verify that it is the, you know, whoever controls this key that posted this particular piece of content. So that's kind of the second category of brokenness, if you will. Excuse me. And then maybe the third one would be just like the perverse incentives that exist in terms of how the business models that have been deployed on these legacy web applications, which are almost exclusively advertising based, which means that the user is not the customer. The user is the product, which is being farmed and sold to the real customers who are the advertisers. And then each of these legacy web companies have the incentive to do crazy things like spy on users, collect as much data as possible on these users so that they can provide a better product to their customers in terms of like better targeted advertising and so forth. And as far as the product and the service they provide to end users, they're incentivized not to provide the best quality content and the highest quality signal, but they're incentivized to, quote, increase engagement.

They incentivize to get you addicted to kind of endlessly doom-scrolling, like you mentioned before we started recording. You were just doom-scrolling on Twitter, and you saw this news. So your interests are not aligned with the interests of these companies that are serving these products. So Noster is much more than a social media network kind of competitor. It's the new foundation. It's a protocol that will enable us to rebuild the entire web on this new solid foundation where all users are sovereign on the network. They control their own keys.

They can authentically sign and publish the content to this network. And then we have the opportunity to build a new breed of businesses on top of this open network that have the opportunity to monetize in different ways. And we're starting to, you know, to work in that space with Primal 2.0, releasing our premium tier for our users. So we can talk about that more if you wish. Yeah, I think before jumping into the details, the premium tier and why, I mean, it makes sense to pay for the features offered via Primal 2.0. I think going back to the note I mentioned earlier that I sent out yesterday, and I really do think there are stark parallels to early Bitcoin development and the vast misunderstanding of what Bitcoin was

and had the potential to be at that point in time and Noster where it stands today. I sent out the note, Noster is worse is better. Really hearkening back to Guern's famous 2011 blog post about Bitcoin, Bitcoin is worse is better. And that's another thing I think when you get into the world of competing social media protocols, whatever you want to call them, uh people will point at noster and say like this is this doesn't make sense like the the necessity for relays um and caching and this sort of distributed system that the protocol has uh sort of arisen to isn't isn't um isn't efficient to facilitate uh this type of activity at scale and um you have competitors like blue sky which you mentioned uh the fediverse with massadon has been around for a while and then you have newer competitors like farcaster

on ethereum coming um and they would all look at noster and say i can't scale the way it's designed from a primitives level is really not conducive to getting as many people on the protocol as use twitter or other social media or other internet companies to date and what would your response to to that that line of thinking be well yeah there are so many parallels to the early bitcoin the early days of bitcoin uh one of the uh kind of most striking similarities was that of course Bitcoin was dismissed right out of the gate by the highbrow cryptographers and the elite, let's say the intellectual elite at the time. A similar thing kind of happened to Noster early on. But similarly to Bitcoin, Noster is working. And it's maybe one of those things that

doesn't work in theory, but it does in practice. We are bootstrapping this network. We have probably a couple hundred thousand users so this isn't a big number in terms of kind of in absolute terms when you compare it to the you know the mainstream networks even some of the up-and-coming networks like blue sky but it is the only network that is actually bootstrapping a censorship resistant self-sovereign protocol from kind of from the ground up and let's maybe dissect maybe dive into this a little bit more to compare and answer to all these other networks that you mentioned just to kind of highlight the differences so in my view for a truly decentralized censorship resistant self-sovereign network to be bootstrapped you need multiple

elements. You need, first of all, users who hold their own keys. There's no other way. So right away, Blue Sky falls off. Blue Sky, you know, has one service that holds everyone's keys, right? And in theory, they're saying that people can stand up their own instances and, you know, you can kind of get different trade-offs in these other instances. We're not seeing any of that in practice. We're not seeing that blue sky or the ad protocol, as they call it, is actually being bootstrapped as a protocol. This is actually a company that's, you know, a VC-funded company that acts as a company would. They go ahead and, you know, sign up users and they control everyone's accounts and so forth the second aspect of having a decentralized network like this is

the ability to run any part of the infrastructure of the ability for anyone to run any part of the infrastructure here and in noster we're actually seeing this play out there are thousands of people who are running relays and this is a permissionless network you don't need anyone's permission to stand up a relay and on top of that we have hundreds of development projects being stood up on top of this network where you have hundreds of client applications many different types of services that are being run i think there's the last time i looked there's like almost 40 different development frameworks that are being that are built on uh to make um development on nostre easier so this gives you an idea about the level of uh developer adoption of the nostre network so when you look

at the other competing networks there is um you know mastodon slash fediverse which is uh which been around for many many years uh you know the bitcoin community had an instance uh i think bitcoinhackers.org run and ran by nvk for a few years and um it highlighted all of the um deficiencies of their approach where uh yes anyone can stand up an instance but the person administering that instance is the absolute uh has absolute control over that instance including all of the accounts that are created on that instance and it's a federated model so you can kind of connect between a whole bunch of different instances to the extent that the administrators of those instances allow but if you get banned by one instance you get you disappear

entirely from the whole network and famously you know the the bitcoin hackers.org instance got banned by a bunch of other instances and so forth. So it was quite clear that this kind of federated approach essentially replaced one big dictator, whoever is running Twitter, with a bunch of smaller dictators. And this isn't necessarily an improvement because you don't get as many eyes on these kind of smaller dictators, you don't get as many checks and balances. So these guys can actually do whatever they want. So it's quite clear that this federated approach

is inferior to what Nostra is doing. When it comes to other players, you mentioned Farcaster and what's being stood up in the, let's say, altcoin land. they do have some interesting characteristics for example i think other than noster farcaster is the only network where users indeed are holding their own keys so props there but as far as i can tell there is no evidence that anyone other than people who are running like a handful of big

instances is actually running the infrastructure so people who are familiar with bitcoin will be will kind of draw a very astute comparison between the Bitcoin network and let's say something like Ethereum, where Bitcoiners run nodes. There are tens of thousands of Bitcoiners out there that run nodes. And this is what makes the network resilient. This is what makes it very hard to change the protocol and so forth. Whereas such culture doesn't exist really in Ethereum. There's only a handful of big nodes that everyone kind of connects to. That's why in Ethereum, you can have a roadmap and you can say on such and such a date, we'll do a hard fork and so forth. So a similar kind of philosophy is, I think, present in the Farcaster network.

So, when you kind of assess the entire landscape, it's quite obvious that Noster really stands alone as the only credible network that's being stood up in a truly censorship-resistant kind of self-sovereign way, where, again, users hold their keys and are running a large amount of the infrastructure. And again, there are similarities there with Bitcoin. In Noster, there are a couple thousand relays being stood up by just plebs out there. And this is probably enough at this stage to keep the network decentralized in the same way that it's enough for Bitcoin to have tens of thousands of economically active nodes. If you look at the Bitcoin network, this intolerant minority is really what keeps the network resilient. So this group of Bitcoiners who hold their keys and run nodes. And then you have the next level upward of Bitcoiners who hold their keys but don't necessarily run nodes. Those are probably numbered in millions, I would estimate.

and then you have the next level up where with people who don't run nodes and don't hold their keys they maybe have an account on kobe base or maybe they own some bitcoin etfs or whatnot and that's a much larger group of maybe hundreds of millions of users and when you look at the entire kind of bitcoin ecosystem it actually functions quite well with this kind of order of different user types. A very similar structure is being stood up organically on Nostr. And that's really glorious to observe and to participate in. Sup freaks, this rip was brought to you by our good friends at Unchained. We've got a special event for you, an online event. Bitcoin is hitting its stride with massive

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incredibly fascinating to observe for the last i think two or three years now for me and i think it's a testament uh the fact that it's gotten to this point of approaching solving the inherent scaling problems and usability problems that exist with these emergent protocols by buying into the open source ethos of building in the open making your software available to others to to fork and to build on to iterate on and i think primal is a great example that everything you guys have built has been out in the open and you've given it to the nostrid community look we've built here's why we built it this way so that we can have the usability efficiency speed that is necessary to reach feature parity with with other applications and use cases of products that people

are familiar with and and let's touch on that too like just specifically on primal the tools that you've built whether it's the caching system the client whatever it may be and and why you thought it was important to not only build it in the first place open source it and put it out there because you are running a company that's trying to profit and many people would look at this and think it's a bit counterintuitive because you're giving your company's quote-unquote alpha to the whole world right yeah so one of the early critiques of nostre was this whole kind of discoverability problem The critique went along the lines of, well, it's since the architecture of Nostra is such that clients publish directly to relays and then relays don't talk to each other. It's very hard to find anything on Nostra.

You need to be kind of in theory on the same relay as someone else to find their content. And the Nostra deniers were saying things like, oh, like, who's going to, you know, how are you going to solve the discoverability problem? Where in reality, what happened is people built indexers for Nostra. At Primal, we built an indexer that indexes the entire Bitcoin, sorry, Nostra network. and in Primal 2.0 we shipped a very powerful advanced search capability to our premium users which I can say with a straight face that this is the most powerful search on any social media network anywhere and you can really search by all kinds of different criteria you can create feeds based on those criteria you can save searches etc etc so what we're showing is that

it's quite the opposite of what kind of the initial misconception was. Not only is it that it's not the case that Nostr has a discoverability problem. In fact, Nostr is the discoverability layer for all kinds of different content that's already published on relays and will continue to get published in greater numbers. And as you mentioned, we kind of as a philosophical stance, as a company building on an open protocol like Nostr decided that everything that we build, the entire stack, and we build client applications, as well as kind of backend logic and services, the entire Primal stack is open sourced under the MIT license, which means that anyone can take our code without any restrictions, fork it, run it themselves, make any changes they wish.

They can do it for personal or commercial uses. They can build products on top of it, et cetera, et cetera. We think this is the correct way to build on an open protocol. And we are monetizing by running services for our users. This includes the caching services and creation of custom feeds indexing services media hosting services we have a hosted wallet as well so this kind of integrated package that we deliver as a part of a primal premium we are excuse me hoping that the users will find that valuable enough to pay the monthly fee for the premium service so this is the model we're going with. I think having used Primal 2.0 for the last few weeks, access to the beta, playing around with it the last few days, as a user, the service is such a step function improvement in terms of usability, speed, search is a big thing.

that's one thing um that i would credit with getting on x like it actually made me able to use x as a quote-unquote power user was the ability to search and searching x is not easy you have to know like the the functions to put it and you have to recall from memory certain words that were mentioned in certain tweets that you're looking for and as a power user of an app like primal search is a is a massive function that i need to actually be able to use it and want to come back and being able to find stuff is very important let's let's dig into like search you mentioned you can save searches like how important is indexing for taking nostre to the next level and making it easier for people who may have been a bit afraid to use the protocol a couple years

ago when everything was a bit jankier like what do you think the updates that you've made in primal 2.0 particularly around search and custom feeds does for usability for the layman who is not a protocol engineer willing to roll up their sleeves and do the hard work and of understanding exactly how this distributed network in noster actually works and how to sort of hack the the ways of finding the data and the events that you're looking for? I think that's a good point. I think we need to appreciate the trajectory of improvement of various Nostra apps that exist out there. Primal is one of, you know, just one of many Nostra apps. If you kind of rewind the tape a little bit, a couple years ago, Nostra was basically unusable. There were already, you know,

a couple dozen apps maybe but it was very very hard to use a year prior to that you had to be a developer to to participate on the Nostra network so that at that point maybe there were maybe a couple dozen users on the network but the rate of improvement has been quite rapid you can see that you know they all of the Nostra applications already let's say a year ago we're starting to be quite usable and then fast forward to today i think we're getting to the point where we're starting to reach and in some areas even surpass the legacy kind of counterparts and this is crazy considering that this is only like a very short amount of time we're competing with companies that have seemingly unlimited budgets you know they were they've they have had

maybe a decade of uh development work behind them and billions of dollars of budgets uh to get to where they are today um primal and some other uh noster applications are in some ways have reached and in some a few ways have surpassed the capabilities of these kind of legacy counterparts so there's still a lot of work to do but it's kind of what should be appreciated here is the trajectory the rate of improvement which is undeniable and for those out there who maybe tried Noster a year ago or even six months ago you know it's you should you should try it again And maybe you'll see a marked improvement. Regarding your question about search, in one of my conversations with Jack Dorsey a little while ago,

he pointed out the fact that Twitter really started kind of hitting its stride after they were able to implement powerful search. So he underscored this as one of the kind of core fundamental features that are required for a network like this to grow. So we leaned into this. We put quite a bit of effort into indexing. We re-implemented the entire kind of caching and indexing stack for Primal 2.0. and we offer now we like 10 days ago or so we shipped 2.0 with crazy advanced features search features so you can search by content type so you can search by you know short form media text text journal notes the microblogging notes you can search for long form notes which

is probably one of the most promising parts of Nostra. We can talk about that later. Search videos, images, sound, et cetera. And for each one of these, you can set a number of parameters. You can say, give me horizontal videos that are longer than 10 minutes that have been zapped by Marty, and you'll get your feed. so then you can say search by you can keep expanding your search you can set the last list of users who potentially posted this content you can search set the list of users who replied

to it users who zapped it you can specify the slice of the network that you wish to be searched by default it's global so it's just going to search everything but you can say search only within my follows so only the subset of the network of the that's posted by accounts by that i follow or you can search by my follows interactions which is an interesting slice of the network where you can say um search all content that people i follow have interacted with in any way so just by specifying that slice of the network in the drop down you're kind of expanding your horizons a little bit more so you know you might follow certain people but if you search by content that they interacted with it's it's still high signal

content for you it's likely to be high signal but it's much you're casting a much wider net yeah and i think this is again going back to the fact that i consider myself a power user because I know how to use search on all these different, um, platforms, but on this protocol, particularly what you've done with Primal, like that is one thing, like I actually did not like this when, uh, Elon decided to make likes, um, private. And that was actually one of my ways in which I would try to find good content. And so I would go to accounts that are respected and liked, I would go to their likes and say, Hey, what is this person looking at today?

That's been taken away there. But even so, that experience of getting to that content that I was looking for was very manual. I had to go to the profile, go to the tab where it was like this person's like these tweets, and then you scroll. Being able to do this granularly is a step function improvement, again, on this particular use case within the realm of searching for content on the Internet. I agree. and we put a lot of work into the UI for this so that it's not overburdened. You have all of these options,

but if you don't set any of them, the defaults kind of make sense. So in just a few clicks, you can create quite a sophisticated search, which essentially ends up being a feed. And then if you like this feed, if you find this kind of search to be useful, you can save it

and it saves it to your list of home feeds. And this kind of leads to the whole feed marketplace conversation, which I'm excited to have. Yeah, I mean, now my mind's going crazy because that's what we have a social media guy focused predominantly on X. We're waiting for the ability to share account private keys so I can get him into the TFTC account. But that is part of his job is literally looking for videos, um, either being first to find a video that you clip and then post or searching Twitter for, for videos that are pertinent to the themes that we're following and trying to highlight at TFTC and, and posting them and, and just speaking with him, like how, what is your day to day? Like, what is the process? And it's, it's very manual. And so like the fact that on Nostra, you could easily be like, all right, I want, um, I want to follow these people. If they post a video longer than 30 seconds, put it in this feed. And instead of going to search, you just have it in the feed. It's much easier to surface that content.

like you said each of those could be an individual feed that you could follow but this gets into the broader conversation around the algorithms and the feeds that exist in incumbent social media platforms and how that is now changing with Nostra you mentioned doom scrolling earlier I mentioned it I was doom scrolling that is one of the biggest points of contention with the incumbent social media platforms is the fact that they own the algorithm they're the ones feeding you the information and the content that you consume um especially if you're on the for you tab but even if you're not they've they've found ways to to surface content to you and as you mentioned whether like the the model is such as to get eyes engagement attention and they know how

to hack that i mean chamath polypapatia was worked at facebook he said this very openly in the past that they literally have data scientists and psychologists who study what gets the most engagement and literally craft algorithms to trigger you to engage and a lot of the time they're they're using what many would deem to be negative psychological triggers to to drive that engagement, now Nostra provides the opportunity to create a different type of algorithmic experience in terms of how you're interacting with content that's being populated for you. Right. So there are two kind of big problems here with the legacy social media. The first one is that they're not working for you. Their interests are not aligned with yours. And, you know, that's

why they're incentivized in order to maximize their own profits they're incentivized to do crazy things that make you upset that make you addicted and so forth and they build their feed this way i say feed singular not plural because the second problem is you don't have any choice you typically in these platforms you get the feed for you and then maybe on twitter you get like your follows like you said and the single kind of alternative to that which is for you but essentially there's no user agency here that's what's missing here the user is being farmed as a product on nostre we are fixing that it's not so much that we don't want to use algorithms on nostre we do we just want to use algorithms that work for us we want to use algorithms that work

for users. And since Nostr is an open network, anyone can build an algorithm. So this whole kind of story of how the Nostr feed marketplace came to be is quite fascinating and very illustrative of how things like this emerge on an open network. So maybe a year and a half ago, one of the most prolific Nostr devs, Pablo, came up with this spec for DVMs or data vending machines on Nostr, where you can use the Nostr public relay infrastructure to request some jobs, any generic kind of computational job to be executed, and then you get the results and there could be an optional payment associated with that. So the spec itself is quite versatile. it's quite powerful it could be used for all kinds of things so one of the types of things

that can be used for is just to create a custom feed and when you create a custom feed based on this dvm spec you publish a noster event stating i've created this feed this is how you can access it so this was this was invented let's say a year and a half ago and a few of us kind of understood it and really you know saw the potential early on but on an open network you know people have different priorities these types of things are not centrally planned they evolve organically so a few DVMs were created and then you know not a lot happened in the next few months but then it kind of picked up from there where a few developers created a few DVM based feeds and then some client developers noticed those feeds and decided to integrate the ability

to access these feeds into their clients i think most notable examples of that are the coracle web client or no strudel web client also amethyst on android and back a few months ago we noticed that at Primal. And we were delighted. We were like, okay, this is actually happening. This kind of feed marketplace is emerging naturally on Nostr. This is exactly what we want to participate in. Let's lean in all the way. And for Primal, leaning in all the way meant basically three things. Number one, we re-architected the user interface of all of our applications. So iOS, Android, web. to be able to manage an infinite number of feeds. So when you're in the Home tab,

this is where we list kind of your social media feeds. You can swipe left, right, and kind of swipe through any number of feeds. And you can tap at the top kind of where the feed title is to get the feed picker. And from there, you can access the feed marketplace. So we let you browse all of the feeds that have been published on Oster.

you can preview the content of the feed and if you like what you see you can add it to your list of feeds and then you can reorder the feeds that you wish to use on the on the home tab in the way that suits you and you can put some sort of custom feed to be your main feed when you open primal that's what you want to see so there's this capability that in primal by default you could be viewing non-primal feeds right right there in the ui so we've done this throughout the entire app so the same kind of concept applies to long form reads feeds and so forth so um integrating this kind of feed marketplace into the ui of the product was also part of it and then the third thing that we did was since at primal we build client applications but we also build and run

services for Nostr, we decided that every feed that we create for Primo will also publish in the Nostr feed marketplace so that other Nostr clients who support this DVM-based feed marketplace are able to access those feeds. So we've done that already. And with the 2.0 release, we've published all of our feeds to the feed marketplace. So now we have some users who are not even using the primal client, who might be using Amethyst or Nostrudal or Coracle or some other clients that I have them not even aware of, who are actually using primal backend kind of functionality through their clients. So it's pretty wild to see how things like this evolve on a dramatically open network

like Nostr. This rip was also brought to you by good friends at ZapRite. If you're a Bitcoiner and run a business or an independent contractor, you should be accepting Bitcoin as payment. If not you, then who? If we believe that fiat is systemically fragile and is a risk, the rails that that currency runs on are risk as well. You need to begin accepting Bitcoin as soon as possible. Invest in the future of your business. Create a redundant rail by accepting Bitcoin as payment using ZapRate and reduce risk for your business. I've done this for my business here at tftc we use zap right it allows you to easily create invoices payment links or connect

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incredible. My favorite is the orange and the pink lemonade. Go to drinksote.com. That's drinksote.com. Use the code TFTC when you make your purchase and you'll get 15% off. I'm telling you, get on it, freaks. You're going to love this stuff. We were talking about this the other week because one of the big topics, particularly here in the US, it's been talked about. Many people have mentioned it on the Joe Rogan podcast, specifically in the last couple of weeks, mark andreessen like ben's was on and they've they've highlighted this acquisition of twitter and transition to x by elon musk as this sort of savior to free speech particularly in the united states but many would argue um even even further than the borders of this country

and we were talking about there's there's credit to be given there obviously i think it's obvious that what's happening on X over the last year has been a net positive, I believe, for discourse, but there are still landmines that Elon and company could run into not only from a censorship perspective but from user experience, and that's the one thing that excites me about this feed marketplace

is that it is truly creating a more granular, the ability for individual users to create a more granular experience to filter things for their exact use case like i am an autist when it comes to filtering the information on on these social media feeds like i have my bitcoin feed my economics feed oil gas barstool sports whatever it may be like i need that delineation between different subjects and themes that i'm following and it's it's a bit limited on x but it's like two-part like is this like is what is happening on x and all this focus on x actually good for an officer in the long run because it gives it some breathing room like

it actually sort of reminds me of uh bitcoin's experience with wiki leaks when satoshi was still around and people were saying when wiki leaks got uh cut off from paypal and other payment providers uh many on the bitcoin talk forum were like hey we should go to julian assange wikileaks and satoshi famous he said let's not kick the hornet's nest we're not ready for it yet like do you not that there's a hornet's nest that's getting kicked by the noster protocol and the development community around it right now but like is this sort of focus on access this new bastion of free speech this platform of free speech actually beneficial for noster in the long run because you're able put your head down and focus and have the confidence that um years from now the protocol

will be extremely robust anti-fragile efficient and the features will be so rich that you'll be able to pop your head up and be like oh it's just simply a better product i think that's a fair comparison and i think the moment that that you outlined there with the wikileaks do you remember the year was it 2012 or something like that satoshi was still around so it's 2011 2012. yes uh so yeah so we might be at a similar stage in nostrid's development as bitcoin was in 2011 2012. that's a fair comparison and i think the protocol itself is robust but the infrastructure that's been stood up on top of this protocol is still in its early days so it's like a fair comparison and um i would say of course given the trajectory of development of this whole ecosystem

there's a lot to be kind of optimistic about uh but just like going back and uh you know for for anyone out there who thinks oh problem solved elon is going to give everyone free speech of course like uh if if you really think this through that nothing is really solved right The world needs a global open town square. And the question is, who should be in control of it? And the correct answer is no one should have that power. And currently, we have one company or a handful of companies that can be leaned on by many powerful actors. And we've seen that what happened, let's say, in Brazil recently, where if you have the power to decide who can speak, you will be made to use that power, even if it's against your will.

And even someone as sort of pro-free speech and a powerful actor like Elon had to kind of bend the knee in the end. So the correct answer here is that we need an open protocol that's not in control by anyone. that gives every user of the protocol the sovereignty and the agency to use the protocol in the way they wish. When it comes to money, that protocol is Bitcoin. When it comes to speech and internet content and publishing, in my view, that protocol is Nostra. Well, perfect segue into what I wanted to talk about next

is the intersection of Nostra and Bitcoin, this open source monetary protocol, open source communications protocol and there's layers to it too because you have um the intersection obviously zaps exist it's creating it was arguably one of the only true bitcoin circular economies that exist in the world i posted a video a note right before we we went live i'm not sure you probably didn't see yet it happened right before you hopped on here but Jerome Powell was getting interviewed by Andrew Ross Sorkin at some event, I believe in New York earlier today, and he was asked about Bitcoin.

And it seems like he's in the bargaining stage of grief where he's like, yeah, Bitcoin, it's like gold. People are going to use it as a speculative asset, but that's all it is right now. My note was essentially like Jerome Powell, people like him who are trotting out this trope that Bitcoin is simply this speculative asset can say that, but the corpus of data that points in the other direction is overwhelming and it's only getting larger each day. Millions of people are using Bitcoin as their savings technology

and millions more, well not millions more, like millions of people are also using it as a payments network and noster is proof putting of this it's it is a bitcoin circular economy and it's funny right before we hit record i saw somebody replied to that a bit of a troll like it's not a circular economy i'm sorry it's still a speculative asset and i haven't been able to reply to him but using primal my primal wallet like i i believe i bought five dollars worth of bitcoin just to test out the apple pay use case when i first when we guys first launched that feature but since then i have not added a single satoshi to my primal wallet it's all been via zaps and then i have

the ability to zap people from that wallet and for me i'm just n of one there's n of thousands hundreds of thousands at this point that are proof that it is a circular economy like i I literally, with my Primal wallet, have amassed a balance and distributed a lot of that balance within the Nostra protocol solely. And sometimes I actually, and outside the Nostra protocol, I've been at Bitcoin Park having to pay for coffee or a drink at the BTC pay terminal and use my Nostra wallet to pay. So that is truly circular.

I didn't buy that Bitcoin. I didn't send it from another wallet. it was all from the accumulation of zaps that that i've that i've gotten over the years yeah it's wild and what a great uh combination these two protocols you know they each of them stands on its own uh obviously bitcoin doesn't need noster to succeed or survive noster functions without bitcoin as well but they are very symbiotic in the sense that each makes the other one better so obviously noster gets a lot of benefits from having the monetary network kind of a global permissionless monetary network built right into the protocol as an extension of

the protocol so uh we get get this ability to monetize content to to signal on the nos network regarding what content we find valuable or interesting so it's very very valuable um and then bitcoin actually uh what's what's less understood maybe by bitcoiners out there is how nostre helps bitcoin so as you mentioned this is the first time that we've seen uh some sort of like a global circular economy kind of get bootstrapped at scale and it's happening on the nostre network there are so many thousands of zaps are are flying around every day um you have people who like you said who post something interesting on oster or simply shitpost on oster get a bunch of zaps and they're able to get a coffee or a meal

with that it completely blows people's minds when they do this especially new users actually those who aren't bitcoiners those who didn't get into an oster through bitcoin there's like a subset of nostridges that uh were not at all exposed to bitcoin previously so when they post something and they get money and and they're able to buy something with it their minds explode um i don't know if you heard the story that jack mahler's told on stage he was on stage with me yes yes so his best friend's girlfriend get got basically orange pilled through roster even though he was trying to orange pill her for years so you can imagine how resilient that person is withstanding those kind of orange pilling attempts by jack mallers but anyway she wasn't interested in you

know fighting like defending from inflation or you know self-sovereignty or any of those things that we bitcoiners care about but when she downloaded primal and posted something personal online she got a bunch of zaps from people and it just clicked for her her brain exploded everything clicked for her she was like okay i get it all and then from that point on she actually went down the bitcoin rabbit hole and read the bitcoin standard and kind of became a full-on bitcoiner so i think um noster will end up onboarding this is kind of my bold prediction Noster will end up onboarding more people into Bitcoin than all other methods combined, because people will get onboarded to Bitcoin by using their kind of everyday applications like social media applications, video streaming applications. I think every application will be Bitcoin enabled because we'll make sure that those that are not Bitcoin enabled are essentially inferior to the ones that are.

And again, you can see the Bitcoin game theory playing out there through Noster. And I think it's going to be glorious to see. And this is how we onboard billions of people, I think, onto Bitcoin. yeah and it even though the the uis of some of these clients are a bit clunky and don't have feature parity with the the incumbent applications i'm thinking of zap.stream like zap.stream we've been live streaming to youtube and the whole process we've been live to youtube for for years now since covid so for four years more than four years almost five and the we've never enabled super chats because like the clunkiness of enabling it hooking up a

bank account and then like asking the live chat to send us fiat from their accounts that are connected to youtube like the the friction involved with that use case um was was simply too much and it just felt a little too weird but with zap.stream we live stream to the noster network now as well and the rabbit hole recap account has an ln address associated with it and people can hop in the live stream on zap.stream and zap us and the amount of we've been doing podcasting 2.0 for years and i think the average amount that we're getting zapped on the live stream is beginning to surpass the the boost that we get from people listening to um the podcast on apps like fountain which is now a nostril client as well which is even crazier to think um and it

is a superior way to do this and what do you think of matt and i we own rabbit hole recap 50 50 the ease of use of having the rabbit hole recap ellen address it's very transparent i can see how many zaps have come in per stream and my ellen address is in my primal account and when the episode's over and all the zaps are accounted for matt simply just does the split and it's there there's nothing i don't have to give him a bank account i don't have to give him a cash tag there's no interaction on my part he just gets my address from my primal feed and boom sends it it's that is a far superior user experience particularly on the content creation side for something like a super chat or anything else particularly for a show with with multiple

hosts that share the revenue. It's automatic. How about that? And you no longer need to squint to see where all of this is going. So in just your little recap there, you mentioned ZapStream, which is, let's say, a YouTube competitor. When it comes to live streaming, it is in any case. you mentioned fountain which is a podcasting app you mentioned primal so imagine like you no longer need to squint to see what it would look like when let's say twitter facebook spotify uh you know youtube etc etc where all of these were on the same network interoperable kind of uh working with the same set of identities you kind of log in using your nostril identity and any of those you see all your connections there and you um you kind of monetize your your content and you

participate in the local economy using bitcoin in all of these apps so we're already there where we see some of this is functional and given the trajectory of improvement this all becomes awesome over the next one or two years, which again, attracts more content creators, which again, attracts more users. And then this kind of the amount of gravity to the network increases with every passing day. It's hard not to be bullish about this. And I'm totally convinced that Nostra takes over everything. Yeah. And I think to lean into that example, particularly fountain and primal and how they interact for years primal or fountain announced at nostriga that they officially transitioned to a noster client and it's been fascinating to see

since then for years we've been using fountain um to read the boost from the episodes of rabbit hole recap which is involved in podcasting 2.0 we have a lightning pub key in our rss feed and people can boost there and they can still do that even over in oster but historically up until the beginning of this year or excuse me the beginning of this fall um until earlier like three or four months ago uh people had to boost um from the podcasting 2.0 apps and that's how we would we would see the top four boosts that we would read each week but now most people are like i see the boost for the rabbit hole recap particularly if i get tagged in it in my primal notifications and then i go to fountain to read the top four boosts and it's there as well so

like that in two clients showing the same content produced by the individual boosting us like the interoperability i don't think is appreciated by by outsiders yet it's all the same network and it's all the lines are blurring and again we can have many examples we already today have many examples of this and this only gets better over time so substack versus twitter is another example of this where it's like it's appropriate to say substack versus twitter because they are kind of competitors uh elon famously blocked linking to substack from twitter right um and that was disastrous for Substack because Twitter feeds were their top of funnel that's how that was the discovery layer for their content so contrast that with

Noster where you have these social media micro blogging feeds that exist on the same network as the long form textual content and when you interact with the content, you kind of, you can see it in any client that supports that content type. So Primal with 2.0, we've added this ability to browse and interact with long form textual content using the top level reads tab. So when you browse articles on Primal and you go ahead and let's say highlight something within an article, that highlight, that user action, the artifact that gets created by that highlight doesn't exist within Primal only. It gets published to the Nostra network,

and it becomes available to everyone. So contrast that with what happens on, let's say, Medium. Medium, probably decades ago, they've been around for a long time, introduced the highlight feature. But when you highlight something on Medium, that artifact stays within their silo. It's not available anywhere else.

And even though they have the capability to kind of deliver some sort of collaboration around that artifact, you can comment on a highlight and so forth, there isn't a lot of traffic there. You don't see kind of lively comments around highlights that much in Medium, as far as I can tell. Whereas this is extremely lively on Nostr, where you highlight something and then you can select that highlight, do some comments. And then when you browse this later on, you can see that many users are interacting with this and probably from a bunch of different clients. And then client developers get to decide how they want to put all of this diverse set of kind of artifact types that exist on Nostr. You can put them together in completely new ways and offer new experiences that were not possible before, just because you have access to all of this on an open network. And there's nowhere there to stop you. It's sort of the level of experimentation, even though we're just like our budgets as

Nostra devs are like orders of magnitude smaller than these big companies. Paradoxically, we can experiment way more. We can try a bunch of different things, way more than any big company can afford to experiment. And we play with this type of stuff out in the public. We launch it. We see what sticks. We lean into the stuff that works. We throw away the stuff that doesn't.

Every good idea gets replicated, et cetera, et cetera. So this is why Nostra is becoming so much better on a relatively short timeline. What is the one or couple or few of the things on the horizon that you are particularly excited for, whether that's for Primal specifically or Nostra more generally? So, kind of just as a theme, I would say that everything needs to be implemented on top of Nostr. So, everything that you see on open web currently, every web application out there, every web service, everything will get implemented over Nostr.

rather than kind of zeroing in on a specific use case i think this kind of uh the uh openness of the network and every the proliferation of use cases and artifact types as a whole is what's exciting to me this is why i think noster wins more more so than let's say the the fundamental features like censorship resistance and user sovereignty and all of those i think um most people out there don't really care that much about those aspects we do we nostril developers we care about it bitcoiners care about this but we're in a minority the majority of the people out there care about high quality apps and good quality content and i think we will get both of those things due to the openness of the network and will be vastly superior in both of these categories

the apps will be much richer and more sophisticated and the content will be more diverse and and probably of higher quality because of the different feed algorithms and curation methods and so forth so basically in a nutshell i would say openness of the protocol is the killer feature and the sum of all of these parts is going to be insane i had a oh shit moment last night um scrolling through my primal feed and i think this is the culmination of what alex gleason and rob rabble have been working on particularly i think alex specifically has been working to bridge content from the fediverse of mastodon to noster and last night i was scrolling down the feed and i saw matt blaze on the feed and i was like he hasn't been on twitter

in a while i don't think i didn't know he was on noster and rabble retweeted him and i had i was like oh this is coming from the fediverse it was like the first note from matt blaze i've seen in years i don't think he's been on twitter and it was about um and then uh encryption and the fact that governments were like oh you should probably use this and he was joking about it but that was like oh that that was i believe if i'm if i was reading the the source of the content correctly that he was posting that on the fediverse but due to the bridge that alex gleason has built it was it was showing up on nostre as well and i was like oh wow you don't even need people to adopt nostre to get that content now that's true alex is doing great work there he's bringing in a bunch

content from these kind of adjacent networks uh for me i find that less exciting than noster native content because of all of these types of things that we talked about you know you can you you participate in the zapping economy you if you truly build a noster application that application is creating noster events natively that other developers can use and so forth And I think the game theory of Nostra is such that this will happen over time. But in the meantime, for sure, it's fun to see other kind of content being brought in because that's doable and people are doing that work. So might as well bring that content in. Well, maybe it's a catalyst too, because that's the other thing that many people in Nostra have talked about.

and I don't think most people realize is that all these incumbent platforms could adopt Nostra backend infrastructure, keep the same UI or a similar UI and simply just port their backend with the Nostra protocol. And I could see that, particularly for the Fediverse,

being like, oh, like all the people on Nostra are liking this content, like weighing the decision, do we just keep it siloed to the Fediverse or do we adopt the Nostra protocol? Is it better? I can see it happening in the Fediverse because it's a more diverse kind of set of players there.

Some of them will realize that this is in their best interest and this will happen. When it comes to the big legacy players, I think they will be the last ones to adopt Nostra. It's just they are jealously guarding their walled gardens and they're doing it in a way where kind of uh the walls are getting taller it's harder to get in without being logged in and so forth they see that as their competitive advantage and i think they are correct in the short run

but they are wrong in the long run and an open network like noster is ultimately going to eat their lunch but it's going to be too late i think we've seen this happen time and again you know the kodak moment with digital cameras etc etc i think the same thing will happen with the legacy social media networks yeah it's fascinating it is exciting to be around actually maybe this is probably something we should touch on because it feels like uh for it certainly up until this point in time uh there's been waves of hype around not only hype but adoption it's sort of like bitcoin adoption where like you have like something

like nostriga everybody was excited the activity on the network and the growth of the network during that conference was massive and then you have these troughs i don't want to say of disillusionment but of lack of hype for for lack of a better term um and then i'm sure we'll have another wave in the future as somebody building on the protocol building a company on the protocol mentally how do you how do you stomach those waves or how do you how do you think through them what's the psychology that goes into weathering the storm and continuously building um and basically i think the mindset of a lot of nostrils if you build it they will come it's having that confidence and that belief that that's going to be true in the long run

yeah i think it's similar to bitcoin waves of adoption uh we've had like prior to riga this earlier this year uh we had like a mini nostril bear market it was adorable Some people were thinking, oh, Nostra is over, you know. And then we had this, like, massive kind of wave of growth of new users. And then I think it's reasonable to expect that Nostra will continue to grow in waves like this. And I think, you know, there will be different catalysts that initiate different waves. so as an Oster developer I think our job is just to make sure that to keep improving to keep making sure that the product we ship is more sophisticated every time so that users you know

with every subsequent touch point you get surprised by how how much more versatile the whole platform is and the network itself. I think it's fair to say that the current cohort of users on Noster are very kind of Bitcoin centric. And if you were to bootstrap kind of a censorship resistant self-sovereign content network like this, this is exactly what it would look like, I think. Bitcoiners are exactly the right type of people to a bootstrap network like this, because we understand the value of true decentralization. We have the culture of, for example, running nodes, of holding our keys, et cetera, et cetera. And there are direct parallels to Nostra relays and kind of Nostra key pair identities and so forth. So you would expect

that a network like this would be seeded by Bitcoiners. And for the network to truly be resilient, it needs to be kind of seeded by this intolerant minority of the guys who are not ride or dies, who are not going away, regardless of what happens, and who are willing to kind of respond to any attacks to the network. So I think we're kind of past this initial stage. We have something here already. And I think since Noster is not centrally controlled, there's no central planning, there's no roadmap of how this is going to evolve or how the network is going to be grown.

actually all of all the participants on the network that kind of play their role so you have of course the user base you have a number of projects that are building on oster every project can decide how to grow their own user base and in doing so they grow the network itself for me personally it makes sense to lean into the bitcoiner group even more and to get to ensure that we have even more high-quality and high-signal Bitcoin content there. I think long-form content like essays and blogs and so forth are quite important there.

I think we've seen, I don't know if you would agree, Marty, since we launched Primal 2.0, I think there's quite a bit more traffic in that long-form kind of area of Nostra. Would you agree? There is. i was i was on it earlier today and i noticed um i don't know if it was officially from the bitcoin policy institute but like a really good article by the bitcoin policy institute

it was like the top article for me yeah yeah and articles that do get published get a lot more traction they get a lot more zaps comments highlights things like that so things are kind of expanding there i really like i'm bullish on this long form textual long form content because unlike the social media content where really the network is the feature, the network is useless unless everyone's there. When it comes to long-form content, that's not the case because the moment that one interesting author shows up there and starts publishing content there, there's reason to go there.

So your question regarding how the network will grow, And I think it makes sense to kind of cater features and content to BitCoders and then Bitcoin adjacent communities like financial Twitter, let's say, or, you know, health and fitness or philosophy, economics, et cetera, et cetera, where we have people who are kind of active both in Bitcoin and these other fields who can bring their audiences over, for example. yeah i guess i'm looking at my most recent bent um that i posted to nasser and it's like going through the highlights it's like really cool to see what people are getting value out of in each individual article like the recent one i wrote on bitcoin is the apex predator of treasury assets there's like one section that was highlighted by by two people so it's like oh maybe i should lean into this topic maybe write about that in the future and uh it from a ux perspective too like i told you this when you first gave me access to the long reads um beta on primal

it's just like the way the content pops open how fast it is and like the ability to highlight and notes and um see the comments and the zaps it's far superior to twitter articles which i don't even bother using because it's just such a clunky experience and that's another perfect a perfect example of interoperability like i go to obla.news i post along i use their publisher to post the long form content i post it and then i open a primal it's there already in long reads it's pretty crazy yeah i mean it's one of those examples where kind of putting these different content types together in a meaningful way enables us to build experiences that are surpassing the ux level of the incumbents like that's a great example i think if we look at twitter substack medium

if we compare let's say the ux you get on primal when it comes to both browsing and reading through the long form content as well as discovery of capabilities within your kind of social media feeds where you can highlight something and post a comment to your regular feed and then the feed renders the comment the highlight and the link to the article um i'm i'm obviously super biased here but i think we've surpassed the level of ux that any of these big companies have when it when it comes to that particular segment yeah and again it's been built they will come do you view primal particularly primal 2.0 as a major catalyst for the they will come moment is that because i i know I'm not going to ask a leading question because we've talked about this many times.

Your intention has been to make it so that anybody can go into their app store, download Primal, be on Nostr, and have a user experience that blows them away. Yes, actually, I do view Primal 2.0 as that catalyst, especially when it comes to long-form textual content. because we wanted to get to the point where content creators, many of whom are actual fans of Nostr and all of the ideals that Nostr stands for, we want to make sure that content creators can invite their audience over to Nostr with a straight face and say, download this app and you'll be able to access my content

and it will be a great experience. so a year ago that wasn't the case many of many clients were not or probably no client was quite there yet on Oster but now with Primal and others we are getting there so yeah I think this is like an important milestone yeah I'm pumped for you that's the And it's so close Like you said You can squint It's there

From the publisher side The content creator side Zap.stream Completely easy You just put The RMTP token Into restream Hit push

Boom We're publishing there On the long form written side This is Not to primal This is anybody out there Building the publishers Somebody did this for themes

On Ghost Somebody just fork Ghost publisher And make it so I can Easily embed videos links tweets whatever maybe notes notes are already easily embeddable but like other content that i put in the newsletter that that like when a problem in highlighter it's like yeah it's back to you're going back to myspace days where you have to do all the html and css to actually embed

a lot of the stuff um i think people are going to be very pleasantly surprised by highlighter I'm kind of very bullish on Highlighter as a content creator tool that's being built by Pablo. Let's go, Pablo. So, yeah, let's go. Let's go. And again, you know, all you need to do is just like take a snapshot. Look at where all of Nonstar was a year ago.

Look at where we're at today. And now we're kind of approaching the end of 2024. And project that out, even one year out. um and i would say now we have the momentum as well so we just continue cracking this stuff out um i think this gets wild yeah how how fast are you approaching the suddenly moment like what uh prediction i think prediction for 2025 prediction for 2025 what is your nascar prediction okay yes i am um and then you got to give a bitcoin price prediction i'm kidding um interestingly on oster actually um there isn't that much uh banter about price

it people discuss different topics lots of bitcoiners but uh you it's no nowhere near as pumpy as bitcoin twitter is uh am i am i wrong like is that your impression too the the content seems more authentic and more uh there's more signal to it than just like oh we're gonna pump or whatnot would you say i would agree with that yeah yeah i would agree with that it's mainly focused um from my observation on um how to push adoption forward without a focus on price and like the integration of technology i mean the the biggest bitcoin chatter on oster these days is like the intersection of e-cash and oster at least that i'm following which i think is massive as well exactly so that's like high signal it's extremely

highly relevant type of topics for long-term bitcoin adoption as opposed to is price going to pump today or not but to not completely evade your question uh you you wanted a prediction for 2025 okay I'll make one I think we do get a suddenly moment at one point in 2025 for Nostra that's my only prediction

any inclination on what the catalyst will be I think it will be one or more big content creators deciding to kind of lean into Nostra or just deciding to show up on Nostra that's enough

and kind of encourage their audience to follow along. William, this has been great. If you're listening, disclaimer, 1031 is an investor in Primal, but we invested for a reason. It's because it's the best client on Nostr. It's my go-to.

It's getting better. If you're out there, you're Nostr-curious, and you haven't set up a Nostr private-public key pair yet, go to your app store, search Primal, download it, test it out. get in the game it's time you want to get in before it would be cool to be in before the suddenly moment after the suddenly moment it's oh yeah no duh you're on noster you want to be able to say i was in in using noster and on primal before the suddenly moment that's what

absolutely you want to be a primal legend you do on primal we on every profile page we kind of list the date when that account joined Nostr and we know that by a single publish action so let's say if you create your Nostr account all you need to do is just like a trigger one like you don't even need to post anything but the the moment you create you create a Nostr event a Nostr action that's your kind of that's the date that's marked as your kind of joined Nostr at such such date and time so yeah if you haven't done that yet go for it definitely when it comes to primal premium actually you mentioned primal legends when it comes to primal premium we also mark different kind of groups of users who subscribe to primal premium and those who subscribe in 2024

are marked as Primal OGs because they will, you know, they'll be among the first kind of one month of users that signed up for our service. So we want to recognize them. We've got 25 days for you. So I'm trying to see,

where can I see when I joined Noster on Primal? Let me look it up for you. So I don't know if we list it on the mobile apps, but we do it on the web app. So let me look it up for you. I can pull that up now.

July 26, 22. Wow. You're five months ahead of me, Marty. I was on Nostra before you? Oh yeah, totally. I hadn't even discovered Nostra when you already had your account. Look at this. That's great. I joined on Christmas day, 2022. What a great Christmas present. I know. Yeah. I looked at it later. It was like, oh, interesting. I guess, you know what I was up to on Christmas day. uh i'm excited this is very optimistic and i think it's important um especially juxtaposed

to the fervor around x which i think is warranted to a certain degree free speech back like great however you don't want central planners or central points of failure i think more accurately describes um the the problems that exist in incumbent platforms you want an uncontrollable protocol that is what everybody's building over at noster and whether you realize it now or later that is most likely what's going to win out in the day because as we know things may seem rosy now but uh power does change hands and who knows maybe even at some point the Trump administration wants to censor people for some reason. I don't think that's going to happen, but it's certainly possible.

And if that ever does arise, you want to be making sure that you're posting content and leveraging a protocol that's uncensorable and distributed and doesn't have the central point of failure that can be leaned on to, to censor you. Well, also Bitcoiners shouldn't let someone else hold the keys to their speech. Quite simply. Yeah. We'll end it there. Peace and love freaks.

Thanks for watching!