TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #588: Solving The Birthrate Crisis with Kevin Dolan

Episode Date: February 21, 2025

Marty sits down with Kevin Dolan to discuss Natalism. Natalism Conf: https://www.natalism.org/ The conference on Twitter: https://x.com/natalismorg Exit Group: https://exitgroup.us/ 0:00 - Intro 0:36 - Kevin's orange pilling 4:28 - Natalism & strong families 12:55 - Fold & Bitkey 14:38 - Factors that have weakened families 22:23 - East Asia 29:39 - Immigrating human labor units 35:56 - Unchained Announcement 36:35 - The strength of marriages 56:03 - White pills - Bitcoin fixes this 1:12:35 - Exiting is the only victory condition 1:15:22 - Soft landing 1:18:24 - Natalism can unite tribes 1:22:58 - USAID & Kevin’s doxxing 1:31:18 - Family businesses Shoutout to our sponsors: Fold https://tftc.io/fold Bitkey https://bitkey.world/ Unchained https://unchained.com/tftc/ Join the TFTC Movement: Main YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/c/TFTC21/videos Clips YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUQcW3jxfQfEUS8kqR5pJtQ Website https://tftc.io/ Twitter https://twitter.com/tftc21 Instagram https://www.instagram.com/tftc.io/ Nostr https://primal.net/tftc Follow Marty Bent: Twitter https://twitter.com/martybent Nostr https://primal.net/martybent Newsletter https://tftc.io/martys-bent/ Podcast https://www.tftc.io/tag/podcasts/

You've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free. When you talk about a Fed just gone nuts, all the central banks going nuts. So it's all acting like safe haven. I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor. I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin. If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. See, it was a long journey.

Meandering bouts of shitty tech sales jobs and unemployment in my early to mid-20s, and then decided to start writing about Bitcoin in 2017. That ultimately turned into this, and here we are, eight years later on this, in Austin, Texas. That's great, man. You had a crazy uncle? Yeah, so, well, I don't know if I want to call him a crazy uncle on the air, but my introduction to Bitcoin was someone I knew who was introducing me first to like, you know, Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams and Heart Project and like eventually Flat Earth. but he was also like hey bitcoin man and so i was sort of like it was sort of a had like a reverse halo effect was i was like i'm not sure about this but then you know having looked back i'm like yeah

he's trying to write about some of that other stuff and i don't know man i don't know um i had a similar experience with um i i spent a summer in in jordan um in college and uh arabs love conspiracy theories they're crazy they just eat them up um and i remember being like oh no uh you know these poor people they don't have an independent media to to help them know what's true so they're just they're lost in the sauce of all these conspiracy theories and and uh you know come come 2016 2017 i was like i need to go back and apologize to these guys wait a second you're onto something there i mean and as we're finding out in the last two weeks particularly yeah we've been propagandized and our debt and our taxpayer dollars been weaponized against us to make us

believe that uh that we're wrong that america is terrible the white man is terrible yeah man it's been a crazy ride i remember um thanksgiving with my uncles uh doing the usual you know talking politics and um one of them was like saying well you know conspiracy is too hard to maintain it's you know somebody would somebody would spill their guts it's just too strong of an incentive to to sort of defect and it was like it was like a month after uh epstein died in prison and i was like i don't it kind of seems like it can be maintained it kind of seems like that thing is that kind of thing is possible so like i don't know what's true anymore and uh yeah a lot of things have cracked open in the last couple of couple years yeah i i've i've had many

my nickname on the show is marty jones so i've gone down all the rabbit holes and uh i've got i mean i think i've gone back and forth is it uh malicious intentful action on behalf of a nefarious cabal of individuals around the world i think to a certain extent it is but you mentioned the important word i think the incentives are set up in a way where people like the game is set up from an incentive structure in a way that makes it easy for people to sort of game and garner power and rule over the rest of us and i think a lot of that incentive structure that was built up over the last five decades is being laid bare with what's going on now with absolutely the trump administration and i think that's why i'm

so passionate about bitcoin have been for many years is my idea or my belief is that the core corruption of the broader incentive systems that humans play within is the money um and once you fuck that up it has rippling negative negative externalities across the board one thing which i mentioned to you in dms which i truly believe is family formation and totally the subject that i really want to dive in deep with you today is this whole concept of natalism you're throwing uh a conference here in austin next month uh on the subject i remember last year uh it was first time you did it was last year yeah it was 2023 but it was december 23 okay yeah so like a year and a month ago uh a number of individuals who attended the conference actually

stopped by here um either between the two days or after some of the talks and they were talking about how great it was and so joe rogers shout out to joe rogers for tagging me um in one of the tweets he sent out late last week and saying he should get involved i was like oh i remember people talking about this natalism uh conference i'd love to yeah chat about it because it's a big topic in the news totally uh we just found out that like we've been talking like pro-natalism natalism all this stuff the thing that's really launching is birth rates and i think it's interesting because it's like uh because birth rates is the number one it's like this it's like this kpi it's this like indicator and what's really interesting about that is like there's a

there's a cohort of people who are like because they love kpis they're like look at this dangerous kpi the big line is going in the wrong direction and then you've got this other kind of person who's like psychologically averse to that who's like screw your kpis like screw your spreadsheet brain whatever and uh so i think that's why birth rates is what has launched because it creates this ready-made thing to fight about um and i sort of i sort of come down on like the the the spiritual side of it and like the psychological side of it and like meaning the side of it is what matters to me and it's what matters to my family and the people i care about um spreadsheets is why like uh people with money people with power people why they

should care about it uh because it's kind of coming for them and it's like if you don't if you don't create a situation in which ordinary people can solve their ordinary problems uh those problems are going to compound and aggregate into something that's a big problem for you and so uh so yeah i kind of i see both sides of it but but uh but yeah it's it's definitely been in the zeitgeist uh with uh with uh the baby mama drama of late um what are your thoughts on that this whole is bringing back a gang as kong like conquer and spread your seed it's definitely not my approach neither is it mine no no i mean i think um i think people like that are always gonna be weird and that's not even me saying like it's okay

or i approve of it or i disapprove of it it's it's me saying like they're always going to be super strange people doing super strange things and so like if there's if there's a problem with it it's it's it's maybe the the the fact that ordinary people may perhaps like look at that look to that as an example and be like this is workable for me and it's like i'm not sure it's workable for him definitely not workable for you like this is not uh this is definitely not something you should build a template around no and i i am a strong believer in the sanctity and the apartments of the nuclear family and yeah uh i think more about the kids yes which is and who knows maybe he's some enigmatic character that like he is the

richest man in the world and maybe um many outside observers will be like oh it's okay for him to do it and yeah he's we need his genetic spread and i guess what i would say is that was always going make him a really weird dad yeah like regardless of whatever else regardless of how he structured it he he was going to be a weird dad and and that's you know uh so so like it's it's like trying to pass judgment on like a space alien like i i you know you know what i mean like it's it's it has nothing to do with me um but yeah like like for me and for my kids and the life that i want for them i definitely want to be present with my kids um i did so so for me the reason i got into this all was was uh basically um i started i started a group called exit which

is built around it's a fraternity basically built around how do we have grandkids how do we make sure that we and and the reason it's grandkids and not kids is because if you have like lots people can have kids anybody can have kids um there's like sperm donors who are like gengus con reproductively successful right but that's not exactly the point and so so to have grandkids is to say that your thing iterated like it completed a loop and you passed it down you you raised your kids such that they wanted to reinstantiate what you built which i think that's sort of the real the real bottleneck that we're passing through because there's lots of conservatives who have kids who are not having grandkids and there's lots of uh you know there's

lots of sort of accidental kids and that's not that's not what we're aiming for we're aiming for something that iterates something that works through time and uh yeah i think i think what works is families and so so yeah that's definitely my perspective yeah that opened up a little bit more about mine i don't know if i've talked about this too much on the show but i was mentioning before i come from like a big irish catholic family my mom was one of eight i have 25 first cousins and we're all essentially brothers and sisters and we congregate every summer at the vacation spot that we grew up going to and we're very fortunate that our parents set a good example particularly around the nuclear and extended family where we're still to this day pretty

tight-knit like we're my kids and their kids we we just tell them to call them cousins and yeah they act like we did when we were kids and it's great um that's something that until i moved away from home and spent a considerable amount of time away from home it's been 16 years now i didn't realize um for many people it's not the dorm and it's something that's very special very americana in a sense that needs to be protected yeah absolutely um i feel very fortunate to have had that experience and now as i have children and grow my family and talk to my wife about what we want to do it's like yeah we want to make sure that we pass that down and yeah i i often wonder like i took it for granted for most of my life i think particularly up until i

had kids and then looked around i was like holy shit like what we have a special one like and from what i understand the way my parents talk grandparents aunts uncles talk about like it wasn't always that way like that was the norm at least where i grew up in the northeast section of philadelphia yeah that was so my my my dad's side is irish catholic and my mom's side is latter-day saints so it's two very big families uh with with very different uh dynamics but but sharing that's that uh that vibe we used to go to texoma as a kid and all the cousins and uh yeah part of part of what's changed is not only um not only the just collapse of cousins you just don't have as many cousins but also the geolocation being actually together is is a challenge and

And I think that's sort of what a lot of people are trying to figure out with remote work and with the sort of political sorting that's happening. People are trying to figure out where they want to plant their feet. And yeah, how do you build? You probably can't go back, right? You probably can't just revert to an earlier save. But how do you reclaim some of that, those good experiences that we grew up with? I think we might have been the last generation to have that be relatively normal.

Damn, that's sad. Yeah, yeah, I think. I mean, I think we can get it back. I guess I just mean, like, what's happening now is not that. What's up, freaks? Do you have a credit card? Are you getting cash back or airline points or points for some other service? Guess what?

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Because people invest in things that they, this is Bitcoin, right? They invest in things they can really own and hold and be responsible for. and increasingly uh we are it's kind of you'll own nothing and you'll be happy world and like under those circumstances it's it's very difficult for people to feel that it's worth the investment to have kids um and that's not like sometimes that gets characterized as like oh yeah your your great great grandpa needed farm labor or he needed someone to take care of him in his old age and that's why he had kids uh and it's a fact that like you know families did depend on each other economically like that was true but that wasn't

it wasn't why you did it like it's it's it's bigger than that and it has to do with are we building something together are like do we belong to each other are we a meaningfully uh are we meaningfully a thing in our cell in ourselves or are we just sort of of fading into the background radiation of of the of the monoculture like are we just sort of economic units or you know isolated individuals yeah and that's a millennial early 30s many cousins older and younger so like i've got a good spectrum of data points just in that group and then obviously broadly outside my broader social structure and that's one thing i've been really trying to figure out and is it more social these apps the ability to have mobility to move wherever

the normalization of going off to college in mass um is it really driving that or is it economic or is it a combination of the two um because one thing i've i've talked a lot about on this show and written about i think the dating apps have been terrible absolutely in the sense that they create this market for optionality where if in the back of your mind it's like oh i can always swipe right for now there's always another option out there creates this um mental uh inability to actually make a commitment from a decision perspective and it also just even if you are prepared to do that uh it makes it difficult to find someone else who's prepared to do that there's a game theory element to it that's that's really really challenging for men and women

um men men get uh weeded out at the beginning of the funnel the top of the funnel where it's swipe left you just don't you don't get a hearing and women get uh uh opted out or or or swept uh basically in the uh what are we phase like you know have these have these romantic relationships or just sort of romantic encounters, involvements with other people. And especially when that person is, like, what is happening essentially is that, like, 80% of women are competing for, like, the top 15% or 20% of men. And when someone like that is willing to spend time with you and have sex with you and, you know, do all those things,

it's very tempting to believe like well you know maybe there's a version of the world in which this leads to marriage and it's like in most cases probably not and so that that sort of interferes with the process of people connecting uh in ways that actually will lead to marriage and family and all these things are like uh it all it all goes in the pot like it's all a piece of it like So certainly the fact that we can just very easily take a pill to avoid pregnancy, certainly that matters. Certainly the fact that we have the dual income families are the norm in America and like all the houses are priced with that expectation. All the jobs, the wages are calculated with that expectation. Everything is predicated on a dual income family, which basically like Elizabeth Warren wrote The Two Income Trap, which is like a crazy based book for like Elizabeth Warren.

But it's basically like, you know, women, when they went into the workforce, first of all, the wages were depressed. and then uh because the kids are staying at home or they're in daycare like number one you got to pay for the daycare and you got to get a second car but the biggest piece is you have to get a house that's in a good school district and in a good neighborhood because you're like you know we're going to sort of abdicate our ownership over the the acculturation and the and the education of the kids, we're going to hand that off. And so it'd be really good. And so there's this intense competition for like the nicest neighborhoods with

the best schools, which are, those are positional goods. They're inherently you can't just have all the schools be good schools. There's a best school. And that's where the competition is the fiercest. And so all of these things conspire to create a situation where really like the the the economic cap for like a normal two income median income family is two kids because after that the daycare math stops making sense and so you know in order to have sort of replacement fertility 2.1 tfr you have to have half the population having more than two kids that's

we're nowhere near that so that's that's sort of what's causing this uh this decline which then sort of inverts you mentioned i don't know if we were on the air for this but you mentioned um the money uh once you corrupt the money you corrupt all sorts of downstream things um when when fertility is when the expectation of like secular decline secular stagnation is baked in because of population because there's only two ways an economy can grow right it can grow through uh productivity per worker or more workers right so if you if you are saying we're going to have massive declines and accelerating declines in the number of workers well then in order to keep up you have to have this massive increase in productivity which isn't happening

doesn't happen and so you so you lose that expectation expectation of growth which means all of these economic structures that are predicated on leverage and predicated on the expectation of future returns uh they don't just stall or weaken or or or they actually like invert they actually like collapse um you mentioned kind of getting red pilled by 2008 it's kind of a similar situation it's not a it's not a decline it's a crash it's a collapse and uh and places like so so the 2008 housing bubble is a good example because like you could just if you as long as you could just keep paying your mortgage uh if you waited till what i think 2012 in most markets you were you were back at least back to whole you weren't

underwater and uh but what's happened in china is they've built i want it's it's like it's like twice as much housing as they need basically and the fact is it's there's no catching up to that supply there's never going to be enough chinese people to live in those houses so the value of those investments is it's not decline it's not going to recover it's zero yeah uh those those houses are going to like fill with mold and rats and fall apart before they're ever inhabited they're literally just knocking them down or building them and knocking them down as a yeah yeah it's it's the same it's the same kind of shenanigans as like the collateralized debt obligation it's it's the same it's it's just fraud it's but it's because it's happening in

the real world like i guess you could say it's packaged a different way yeah at least there's the machines and the labor and that's maybe they're learning something by building all these houses and knocking them down but like that's kind of it and so when you have something like that which which like that's that's like most chinese people's retirement expectations is they have these investments and they you know sort of hoping the government bails that out but like it's a it's a huge problem and it's 100 defined by their inability to to to start families with the one child policy obviously playing a big huge huge i mean although they've reverted on that they have reversed it and like every other every other east asian country's going through the same thing it's

like it's like the one child certainly made it worse it accelerated it but like it was kind of coming for them anyway and it uh so i and what's interesting about china and japan is like their play is perfect like they're making all the other moves right like they're making all these investments in automation all these investments in stem like their people are very well educated they're very conscientious and high iq and like you would expect that like if anybody was gonna like win the game it would be them but because they get this one thing wrong which is like this fundamental deep spiritual profound thing like you can't convince your people to to raise families fulfill this basic human need um it actually doesn't matter what else they accomplish like

the 2030s are going to be a disaster for china unless like basically you would need like the ai eschaton you would need the uh the the armies of humanoid robots just just doing the work for you in which case maybe you can nose up but that's like that's like a whole different existential problem for the chinese so like this is a massively important is it it it ramifies to you know the fate of civilizations and uh and i actually uh somebody pointed out the other day i bought the domain for 12 bucks a year natalism.org so it's like it's not when we got in it was like nobody was talking about it but it's like this incredibly important issue and that's why we're that's why we're having a conference yeah and you mentioned the kpi obviously top of mind for a lot

of people 2.1 replacement rate needed china and japan bad but just like in your mind like to quantify the severity yeah of the situation globally like what like how would you put in the context the danger that lies ahead if things don't change drastically yeah so so well there's danger and there's opportunities and i want i don't want to be be clear about that because like a lot of what we're going to be talking about at the conference is like um anytime that anytime that you're trying to um out like trade faster than like the investment banker who's got his like computer hooked up right next to the exchange to the exchange so the electrons can get there faster like that's kind of a sucker's game we had that book right next to flash boys

but if you can be be taking bets that these big institutions not only don't see but can't see then there's all kinds of opportunities that open up and so uh i mean i can talk about the the gloom and doom and the catastrophizing uh that that's that's certainly real um essentially what you're what you're going to see is rich countries getting old and like either they have to do something like japan where they go through i mean it's been 30 years and there's been essentially no economic growth in japan yeah completely flat the central bank owns essentially half their bond market they're buying stocks now it's all being propped up financially at least by the printing money right and and and many people point to japan and they say like well you know japan's a pretty

nice place and of course it is wonderful place to live uh not dismissing that and it took it took an immense amount of hard work and like and like preparedness and thought and dedication just to keep them stable as they've managed this demographic transition but a yeah like they're working harder they've put in all this investment and it's still flat that's for one thing and for two they're not done like their population's still getting older and their population's still declining like they've sort of passed the crest but now they're on the it doesn't decline it doesn't recover because the more have you seen that there's that there's that political cartoon of um the kid and he's holding the uh student loan debt and the boomer's like i'm not paying

for that and the next page is he's got social security on his back and it's like it's like he's he's getting hit from both ends he's got to cover both sides of it and that's what's happening is essentially it's it's getting harder for people to raise families as this problem of raising families gets worse and so yeah it's it's this accelerating trend unless you find a way to uh to nose out of it and and you know so we talk about japan that's like that's like best case um no immigration full automation like that's how they're handling it um maybe other countries can pull that off maybe they can't uh korea is very similar but they're they're actually deeper in the fertility oh that's like 0.7 tfr per woman which is very very low basically it means for

every 100 koreans there will be four great-grandchildren which that's i mean that's essentially that's game over that's like that that culture will no longer be coherent it will no longer exist because there's just not enough people to maintain it um holy shit yeah it's crazy it's crazy and you know people can say well you're extrapolating too far into the future maybe it'll recover and it's like well but it keeps going further down like there's no reason to assume it'll even stabilize here so um anyway those are those are some options there's also the uh american and european model which is we'll just pump it with immigration right which hasn't been working too well no it's i mean there's there's several things wrong with it like you know even

if you just like as a matter of spirituality and aesthetics and meaning you say like well one one economic widget is as good as another one labor unit right uh which i don't agree with that practically or morally but even if you stipulate that uh these these uh immigrants number one they don't uh have even replacement fertility in their home countries like that tfr in latin america is at replacement and falling so like they're gonna we're gonna run about other people's kids we're not going to be able to maintain uh just sucking up all the young blood from from the whole rest of the world and like you know these countries are going to reach a point where they have to think about like where are young people how are they you know who's going

to take care of grandma yeah and like in japan that that you can maybe answer that question with robots but like not in guatemala or butan you know what i mean like these these countries are getting old before they get rich and china is actually you know for all the you know you can what like glittering drone shows over shenzhen and like there's lots of uh sort of cyberpunk imagery coming out of china these days but like i looked it up their gdp per capita is still like in line with moldova and montenegro like it's still a developing country it's still they've got a lot of rural poor people and they're not food independent and so for them the task of taking care of this massive population of the agent is going to be enormous and you know uh

they i mean they they take actions that are uh things that you couldn't get away with politically in america you know maybe they solve that in a really gruesome way i don't know but it's going to be it's going to be tough it's going to be a difficult situation and that i mean that ramifies to how they fight wars too i mean it's the biggest army of only children that's ever existed so like how uh you know how does the population deal with with everybody's only son and they have a gender imbalance too right because one child policy favored males over females so you have like 40 million more men than women yeah and maybe 10 years ago they were talking about like oh you China's going to be dangerous because they've got this young, hot-blooded cadre of disposable men who have nothing to lose.

They kind of aged out of that. I don't know what's going to happen there. That's one option. With the immigration and what's happening in Europe, what's happening in America, you're obviously getting this like, are we you know who are we as as English people as Germans as Americans what's our identity and then like you know just sort of the expectation especially when it's couched in in any sort of crass economic terms of like we need someone to pay for social security it's like why would you expect that you could import these people away from their own grandparents and just expect them

to like pay into your system and respect the arrangement that you made with your ancestors and descendants like this sort of social compact that existed across generations why would you expect them to honor that why would they have any obligation to honor that so yeah that that's that's really not workable and uh it's going to collapse in a different way yeah and you can see that play out in the data in the form of remittance data right it's not going into social security it's going back to where they came from right in a lot of places right and i think we were describing here too because obviously the immigration debate whether it's here in america uk germany all over the world very heated right now very vitriolic and um i do think the the core

focus on immigration is important but i think what you're getting at is really the crux is like you have this collapsing replacement rate around the world and what is the solution not importing people but i think el salvador has been a great example of like reverse diaspora where we need to work on creating conditions economic conditions social conditions where people actually want to live where they're from and develop a family and do it the right way but the conversation that's it's i mean immigration obviously a great replacement theory which uh many people were like oh that's a conspiracy theory it was like the un wrote a paper on it and yeah um what was it the cliven howard what was it the uh cliven howard sort of theory i mean it's it is an

economic policy that people have put out there publicly for decades sure right it's pretty obvious if you have more than two brain cells and you're paying attention that it's tried to be implemented right globally right and it's obviously not working and the the sort of the strong the strongest case i can make for the like you know it's not really happening take is like they could say you know well we just don't you know we don't really enforce immigration law and like it happens to be this useful thing and like it happens to like it's a good thing um but it's not a conspiracy it's just sort of like people want to come here and that like but even that it's it's very mealy-mouthed like they clearly

like it it clearly benefits their their political team uh to have a dependent class that's sort of their only tie to i mean that's from makia valley right like like obviously a tyrant prefers foreigners because they're sort of attached to him and dependent on him. And they, you know, they're more inclined to serve his interests than like the native population. So, yeah, I mean, that's that's that's pretty obvious. Sufferings. The rules of the game have changed. The first 30 days of the Trump administration have ushered in a massive shift in Bitcoin policy. Regulatory clarity is emerging. Institutions are stepping in and America could be on the cusp of a national strategic Bitcoin reserve. Join Unchained for an exclusive online

event with Connor Brown, counsel to US Senator Cynthia Lummis, Preston Pish, and Matt Pines from the Bitcoin Policy Institute on February 25th at noon Eastern. The event will cover what's changed, how it impacts your generational wealth, and what might be coming next. Don't get left behind. Secure your spot now. Sign up at unchained.com slash TFTC. Again, that's unchained.com slash TFTC. But yeah, so we're getting together to bring all these different factors. I mean, it's it's definitely about the dating apps and it's definitely about immigration and it's definitely about um secularism and it's about all these things it's all it's all part of it um and so the purpose of the conference is to get basically dice it up into categories and say like let's talk

about the the health cons we haven't even talked about health consequences which is like uh or the health causes of it which is like so many more people are obese so many people more people have metabolic disorders and hormonal disorders and it's like obviously you know if if a huge portion of the population is is overweight and has metabolic health issues like it's going to be harder to date it's going to be harder to to connect it to be a not only to be attractive to each other but to be attracted to each other like because you know it interferes with libido And it messes with things like things like, you know, hormonal birth control, messing with the types of people that we pair with. Yeah. I mean, the the observations of women who come off birth control and they don't like their partner anymore because their endocrine system was so messed up from it.

Terrifying. Right. Yeah. Terrifying. And that's real. And it's like, you know, we've just sort of sort of polluted that system in a really serious way. And so, so we've got, so we've got people coming to talk. So we've got like raw egg nationalist. He's a, he's a guy who is concerned about those things. And he's going to come talk about, you know, the issue of, of declining sperm counts and reproductive health. And so that's one piece of it.

Then there's the dating issue. And we've got like, uh, we've got a guy who, who built essentially a matchmaking app to come talk about what he's doing. And, uh, you know, what is like, is, is, is dating apps are, are dating apps just like sort of a flawed form factor like do they just sort of fail intrinsically to to accomplish this goal or is there some way to make like a good dating app you know jury's still out on that but then uh you know why is it also difficult for people to get married and that's a really that's a really deep one because so we've got we've got brit benjamin who's going to come talk

about um marriage law she's a divorce attorney and she did this great presentation last year about basically it's like it's it's the most important agreement that that most people are ever going to enter into is their marriage but it's like completely unenforceable as a contract like it obviously divorce has extreme financial consequences and social consequences but the terms of the contract themselves are like at the same those are like toothless there's very little you can do except just snap the line get divorced and so uh people men and women are like terrified to get married and sort of reasonably and so uh it's about how do you how do you make that contract do what contracts are supposed to do which is not to you know

not to coerce people into arrangements they don't want but to set the terms and make sure that everybody's on the same page when they come together so that they don't they're not surprised later on and they're not like you know there's no there's no sort of uh obscure expectations right i didn't realize this was a big hold up for people huge hold up getting married in the first place oh yeah, no. Uh, in fact, like if you, if you look at, so, um, one of the, uh, speakers last year, Steven Shaw was talking about how basically it's, it's, you know, if, if the fertility rate is like 1.6, 1.5 in the U S right now or something like that, it's not actually, um, all the households having 1.5 kids it's more like families who have kids having two three four or five

that's a very you know sharp declining tail right but there's this huge portion having zero and it's like i think it's like 40 of millennials it's something like that it's some huge number that uh that are basically never gonna have kids and we're sort of never gonna have yeah we're sort of coming on yeah because what the lower band of millennials is what turning 30 yeah yeah so you we're sort of finding the the last bit of uh who's going to have kids and you know lots of millennials are going to have kids in their 30s but so many of them haven't even started and um and jordan peterson has an interesting bit on this he's like you know if if if it's past 40 yeah what's that right logan's looking up the stat oh nice what's it

that logan okay well it's all over the place right like you're gonna you're gonna find a bunch of things but it's it's a ton of millennials who are not having kids and uh number one like that's gonna change the political makeup of the country all by itself just because of who's having like who shows up in the next generation um in addition to all the economic and political ramifications of just not having as many people. So, yeah, that's a big piece of it. And so when people are being asked to enter into this relationship, this contract that is, you know, even if it's not a marriage,

like having kids is this binding mutual obligation where you're just stuck with each other for a long time. uh you know ideally forever but a long time um and people don't want uh to to enter into that if there's no clear expectation it's like everybody's sort of expected to sort of synthesize their own values from from the from the ether and just make up what they believe in there's no common expectations so are you getting getting out that maybe the the stray away from faith has led to this yeah i mean yeah i think i think certainly that although even societies where there was religious pluralism or there was you know a more sort of secular way even societies like that have

had children and and expectations about what a family is like we're dealing with something that's yes it's secularism but it's like even more fundamental than that it's like the total rejection of objective meaning and so like what is a marriage for what is a wedding for what are you know why would you why would you have that expensive party like what is the point of that party i saw you quote tweeting somebody today yeah complaining about somebody brought a kid to a wedding yeah yeah it's that kind of thing it's like you know and yeah like not all not all uh couples who get married have kids that's fine but the purpose of the institution is to create an environment for raising children like that's sort of the primal purpose of marriage

and so uh with that understanding lost it's like you know trying to find somebody that you want to marry it's like what does that even mean to you what does it mean to them and so when that's all nebulous, people feel this incredible pressure to, like, number one, they have to find somebody who's, like, deeply compatible so that they can work all this stuff out. But it also, because it's such a risky move, they sort of want to, they want to find somebody who is, like, really extraordinary. Like, it had better be somebody amazing for me to take on this huge risk. and so you know of course there's all kinds of heartbreak and disappointment and difficulty in

dating because of that and jordan peterson was talking about like you know if you're going to take two years to assess a particular a particular partner each time it's like you get to you get to look at like five people as as a woman like in terms of your reproductive window if you want to have kids you get to look at like five people and so uh that that like fundamental math is like really hard for a lot of people to confront uh just the fact that life is short yeah especially just thinking about like when women enter the years which they're most fertile and able to have late teens early 20s mid-20s and the culture particularly here in u.s is like go to college have fun graduate maybe get a job in a big city continue to have fun and then i'm pretty sure like

the way most millennials think is like all right by the time i'm 30 i should have my partner and we should have a plan to get married by like 30 then yeah observationally i think that's at least a lot of the people individuals in my cohort that's the way they thought i was like all right college fun get a job find a partner i want to have kids by 32 it was like yeah how they thought And, you know, if I get there and I don't have enough, I'm not rich enough at that point, and I haven't met the right person, like, the money thing is huge because it's like, well, I want them to go to the right school because it's competitive and it's hard. That's a huge problem in Korea. The Koreans, it's hyper-competitive. And so people are dumping all their resources into one kid.

Like, that's actually very common, like, for Koreans to, like, actually get married, have a family, but just one kid. in the u.s it's kind of like if you're going to have kids you might as well have kids yeah um and the problem is zero uh tfr so uh so yeah we're going to be we're going to be talking about the health side the dating side the marriage side and then the economics of raising a family like the the two income trap and all that and we've got sort of speakers set aside for each of those categories um and then we're going to have like an unconference portion where basically it'll be like two talks and then an unconference where like the attendees get to come and discuss what they heard and what they what they come to bring to the table and it's uh

it's the at this price point the quality of the attendees extraordinarily high they're very committed to this issue they're very smart and they are uh as interesting as the speakers in a of cases and just tons of really like that was the biggest feedback from the original conference was like more on conference let us talk to each other let us let us build together spilled over here like i was saying i had a few people stop by here after and they were like the conversation that was happening nice at the conference like continued and we're like oh where are you guys out there we're like oh we're at this natalism concert ben braddock we actually recorded nice the week he was here and like me him and michael goldstein had a conversation about the content and uh at the

conference awesome yeah i love right here and uh yeah it is it's very important and again going back to my story i don't think i recognized how how bad the problem was until i physically got away from my nuclear and extended family and was like oh shit this is really bad i think me and my wife like um again feel very fortunate like she was best friends with my cousin growing up her mom and dad my parents knew each other she her parents are very good friends of my aunts and uncles they all she grew up with my cousins in a different county in pennsylvania and so like when we i started courting her when i was 17 it was like a very natural fit and as we've gotten married there is some not that my wife and i are deeply in love but like they're going back to like the

family dynamic like there is some like social yeah sort of structure set in place where even if we wanted to get divorced it would just be so socially ostracized within our family group that it wouldn't be worth it yeah people treat those things as if they're adversarial that the that the idea of that there's a social context that that sort of keeps you channeled that that's at odds with sort of the serendipity and the magic and the, and the beauty of, of, of love.

I don't think so at all. I don't think it is at all. I think, I think it actually helps you to find each other, helps you to focus, like it, it, it maintains the ability to,

to build that. Like what's happening now is, is total diffusion and total, like nobody's making, it's not like, it's not like we, we, we tore down all those rules and everybody suddenly became,

you know, deeply, passionately, you know vibrantly in love it's completely the opposite it's just completely sexless not sexless but but uh unerotic culture and uh yeah so you mentioned having this big extended family i think that's how you solve the well there's so many information problems now it's not just um it's not just finding a spouse there are so many problems now where the information environment is so overwhelming there's so much optionality there's so much possibility that

one person can't possibly assess it all and you're finding that people sort of spontaneously are gravitating toward these affinity groups where uh some of that search can be sort of crowdsourced and there's more nodes in the network and richer connections are possible. And I think it's sort of a rebirth of community within the new technological environment. We sort of had this de-territorialization where we were sort of broken loose from these categories defined by geography, and now we're trying to rebuild on these grounds of affinity. and uh so like a lot of a lot of what i see is like what i want to get out of the conference personally is i want to connect with the kind of people that i want to introduce my wife and kids

to because i want my kids to have really solid playmates and mentors and peers and rivals people who challenge them and then eventually you know so the way the way i put is like um you may have heard the saying like you know uh if if you want to know what your kids will be like they're going to be like your your spouse you like you pick your spouse on the basis of like this is someone i want my kids to be like i think the way you pick your grandkids is you pick your tribe because your tribe is who your kids are going to marry people that you work with and socialize with and interact with and go to church with like that's who your kids are going to marry um if you do it right and and so what i want to do is i want to make sure that i have

great admirable excellent kids and that they meet other admirable excellent kids and they have excellent grandbabies and uh because fundamentally i think that's sort of like um uh this bottleneck that we're passing through is extreme yeah we need to be on our game yeah and my wife and i joke about it quite often it's like we're pretty hey because we're not an arranged marriage but like you could squint and look at our situation yeah was that arranged it wasn't it was natural but we joke like we're pro arranged marriage because just thinking about how easy our life um through the courting and marriage process and having children has been made because of the integration of our families is i don't think you should discount that like

it is something that is very undervalued and that you should search for if you're out there looking for it may like depend on these these networks these filtering systems yeah i think even more or less normal people like they don't have to be like weird political people like me i think most people if you describe like what would be your ideal dating situation how would you like to meet your spouse what they will describe is something that is is like a uh essentially the modern version of arranged marriage, which is like your, your mom and all your aunts get together and they sort of put together some

dossiers. Right. And then you, you choose from the dossiers. Right. Like, I think, I think the search part and the,

and the soul searching of like, you know, is this person really a fit? If you have lots of people who know you from the outside and understand you and love you and have your best interest at heart, like, at minimum, if you have that group of people telling you, like, go ahead, green flag, you know, that, I think, would make it so much more easy to relax for a lot of people. And, and, um, this is something that I've talked about. It's a little bit strange, but like, uh, part of the reason why I didn't want to do too much doom and gloom on the issue is that a huge part of, uh, the, the, the dance of, of mating for, for, for lack of a better term that is being disrupted right now is the,

the looseness the fun the casualness the openness um i've talked about this in a couple other places but like the fact that you could the fact that you could like be sending some amorous tweets uh to a girl and those might be broadcast on instagram uh the next day uh that's a huge disruptor of the dance and um because you kind of need to get into is she gonna put me on blast yeah yeah well and you could because the whole point is that you need to be in this like relaxed kind of irrational emotional headspace to flirt and connect i mean that's why bars exist right like i'm so i'm a latter-day saint i don't drink but like it's clear the reason that bars exist is because people need to be in a relaxed low key state for things like that to happen

and so that's a that's a it's not a facilitator i would use but it's a facilitator and so uh the fact that we are under constant observation the fact that we are in in constantly in artificial highly legible like panopticon environments where our our moves can always be judged that's like death to libido and eroticism and, and, and connection between people. Yeah. And,

and we're not going to do them. We're not going to do them. I think another white pill, I think people, I do truly, maybe it's the X bubble that we're in the Twitter bubble that we're in, or the, the political bubble that we're in,

whatever it may be. But I think millennials particularly are waking up to it. there's plenty of women particularly that i know my extended network that have woken up to like holy shit i started this process too late and you're beginning to see people glad i'm sure you saw the tiktok that went semi-viral of those people sitting in the circle you know the girl there saying like i was i was taught to go to college be a girl boss get a job but all i want now that i've done that like i hate it and all i want is a husband and some children and take care them yeah i think there is some sort of natural reversion to the mean at least socially where

people wait a second maybe we this up yeah need to begin rethinking about that and i know that's happening in the millennial generation i'm just curious if that's been i don't know if you have the answer to this but if the gen z is looking ahead to us being like maybe we shouldn't repeat the mistakes that they did i think it's taking an interesting shape which is i think that they are uh they're much less careerist than any living generation right they're like clearly the answers aren't there and that uh in some cases has led to a kind of like nihilism um it's like you know it's it's not the career thing and it's not anything else um but i think in a lot of cases it's like it's leading to this like searching spiritual searching and uh yeah i mean you know

the fact that, uh, I don't, I don't think, I don't think that we're going to get back to, well, I don't think we ever get back to anything. Like I, I think, I think time only goes in one direction. Um, but we are, we are experiencing a kind of spiritual revival among a subset of the population. and so like there's there's a conversation about like you know can we nose up it's like number one who's we right like uh can can the world nose up the world's gonna have demographic problems like that like there's nobody who has a megaphone big enough to make it so that the world doesn't

have some kind of demographic problem in the 2030s that's baked in um and even if they did like like the the kids that will define that labor shortage are already 10 so like you can't make more 10 year olds you can only make more babies right so that's happening clearly but can uh can america figure this out i think maybe they can can uh your tribe your community your family figure this out unambiguously absolutely they can and in fact the the fact that we are uh the fact that there are certain phenomena that the institutions that sort of run the world as it is right now can't see like like this should be an existential uh uh project for the chinese for the koreans for the japanese for for the u.s for europe all of them it's not because these

institutions are not built to perceive threats that are you know you have to do something about them now in 18 years you get the payoff right as a high velocity trash economy focuses on exactly monthly statements quarterly growth all that exactly exactly and so in the absence of that It's like there's, there's money lying on the table, uh, both literally and figuratively, uh, because the big institutions can't handle, uh, problems like this, but we can, we, you know, humans exercising human judgment totally can. And so, yeah, I think, I think, uh, I think the people who are aware enough to be concerned about this and to take action on it and to connect with other people who care about it, they're going to figure it out. Totally going to figure it out. Yeah. This is actually reminding me of a conversation at lunch last Friday with somebody and somebody in the investment world.

we were talking about like the problems with investing pretty venture capital investing pe investing like even look at the stock markets look at price to earnings ratios and it's just all been everything has been reoriented around the high velocity trash economy of what are your quarterly financials what's that looking at and what are the flows of capital from the money printer into these assets and tying it back to the bitcoiners obviously like to focus on lowering time preference thinking longer term building families as part of that but then like reintroducing patient capital into the market via bitcoin because you you have the ability to accumulate wealth in a hard asset and the trend continues adoption continues the purchasing power of your

bitcoin is going to go up and so therefore you can begin making long-term capital allocation decisions right and i do think it's a core part of the problem is the money people talk about the economic situation more broadly and effectively two people two parents in the workforce sending kids to daycare inflation's running it's harder to keep up like if if you had good money you have the ability to actually be productive save and watch that purchasing power increase it's like all right mom come back to the home take care of the kids and and then it comes to like rebuilding maybe not even rebuilding to your point like you don't go back like reorienting the world around institutions that are developed by people with this long-term mindset like the money good money

is going to need to be part of that solution even just the fact that i mean one of the things that we talked about in the beginning uh the the fact that the fact that the most influential and powerful people are uh like psychologically really strange um i think is a consequence of like the fake software economy it's like there's a certain type of person who's excellent at solving that type of problem and they have a bias toward converting all of reality into that type of problems so that they can solve it the way they solve everything and bitcoin has put so much wealth and so much new power in the hands of uh cranks and i use that affectionately like like like we need more cranks we need more we need more people with wild ideas and uh and and and uh like

like um the the tech the tech boom led to uh an inversion of like the jock nerd dichotomy but it was like the nerds had to like pile into the paradigm of making money it was like the nerds who were useful to that system who who could who could sort of tend the managerial machines And that's why, I mean, that's, that's, in my view, that's why, uh, small tech is like, tends to be right wing and big tech tends to be like big blue blob, you know, fake and gay. It's like, uh, the people who can, who can snap into these capital systems and who can sort of, uh, be like, who can, who can excel within that frame, who can stay within that frame. that's who has money but with bitcoin you know the the it's anybody who holds bitcoin right like it's just anybody and so like diogenes could not be a tech billionaire but he could totally be a bitcoin billionaire right like guy sitting in a urn right like that's that's uh that opens up all

kinds of possibilities yeah and i and i don't want to harp too much on my personal story but i do truly believe like without bitcoin like i said i got into bitcoin relatively early was smart enough maybe fortunate enough lucky enough to squirrel away a little bit per paycheck in my early 20s like i was telling you before we hit record like at a bout of unemployment um right before i started this media company i was unemployed for like 18 months um bitcoin at that point so this was like late 2015 into 2017 uh at that point like bitcoin in 2015 went all the way down to 180 but then for the end of 2016 um started going back up and i took some odd jobs made some money on the side and made it a point not to sell the bitcoin um and then i got to the point where

with my wife for many years at that point i was like we need to get married and bitcoin gave me the confidence to get married having that savings yeah that i built up over the course of four or five years at that point um i said fuck it it's time to get married let's get married let's start a family and i don't know if i'd been able to make that same decision if i didn't have that like safety net of the savings that i'd built up in my early 20s and individual situations are individual but like in the aggregate it's obvious like people don't breed in a cage they don't like they don't start families if they don't they're not in control of their lives and so few people feel like they're in control of their lives and i think you're right that it's absolutely

it's connected to the the economic system that we live under and and who's and who's in power because of that and uh yeah i think i think bitcoin is a profoundly disruptive technology The architecture of just blockchains in general creates the possibility, again, the possibility of privacy. The fact that you can do things and be things that are nobody's business. Yep. Like, that's immensely powerful and it's an immense return to a more natural way of life. because like even the most tyrannical even the most powerful autocrats of the pre-modern era had nowhere near the surveillance and enforcement tools that our state has yeah not even close

and it's not just the state it's like again it like the the fact that your your your date can like put you on blast on on instagram like that's part of the whole panopticon like that's that's It's not just the state. It's this whole thing. Yeah, it's like the girl blasting you on Twitter. She's like a, I don't want to say SS agent, but like an external operative for the surveillance state. Right, for who, right?

And that's what you were talking about with incentives. It's not necessarily that it's a cabal. It's just that the incentives flow a certain way. Yeah, and that was actually, I'm sure you saw it, Sam Hyde's monologue towards his letter to Elon Musk particularly and that was the one section that really stood out to me was like what are we competing against China on like do we want this digital panopticon do we want these just inputs cogs in the machine in the economy and I think it is time and honestly there's never been a better time with this current administration

i mean jd vance going explicitly saying humans are not economic inputs in some machine that you just put him in was incredibly was incredibly uh it's just incredible to see and i think the way sam phrased that as a monologue i do think we do need to have the conversation as americans particularly with this a minute and i think trump administration should think deeply about this too like what are we competing against china on like what kpis is it birth rate is it energy output i think yeah we need to get more focus on the social side of things like what is what is in america what is a strong america and i think falling back to being able to form these strong nuclear and extended families and these tribes beyond that is something that we

should really begin to shift the narrative toward totally that's why i'm happy you're starting this conference well thanks man it it it connects to the the elon thing it connects to china it connects to bitcoin like the fact that if you are not if your answer if your if your framework if your structure no matter what else it gets right if it's not convincing young people to fall in love and have kids it's failing it's going to fail um because the it it's just people it's just it's it's you the the purpose of of a society or a community or a state should be the people of that society and like if if they're opting out of existence something's gone wrong you're messing it up and so so yeah it's that's that's what we want that's what we're going to talk

about and it's going to be an incredible group of people i'm i'm really excited to hear like the the the bitcoin angle like in depth uh uh at the conference because i think and i hope we get a lot of bitcoin people to come because i think so last last round we had we had sort of uh a lot of tech people and a lot of people who are sort of right-leaning tech people so a lot of them were into bitcoin and then we had like a big kind of trad uh contingent it almost it almost kind of presaged the the trump coalition in some ways it was like people who clearly were like oh we need to we need to find a way to work together here right right right um but we didn't have any explicit like let's talk about the money um which i think is is uh it's it's a tremendous addition

yeah it's uh it's extremely important and i and again i'm beating a dead horse here now but like i think that's going like the on the bitcoin side of things like we've been talking about this for years like we've been noticing like this growing trend and this fervor around um sort of this new political movement saying this is not working and what ultimately led to trump the first time and now the second time and it's funny because i'm an investor uh we invest in bitcoin businesses yeah and nobody is seeing the opportunity in the broader venture landscape yeah uh for investing in bitcoin companies which we're sort of perplexed by but we also sort of love because there's less competition to getting to great companies that we think are going to build infrastructure that

leads people to this superior technology um but there's so many otherwise sensible really sharp people out there that have not realized that a part of the puzzle uh to ultimately getting to the end state that they talk about getting to is Bitcoin and yeah, it's blown our minds for like, and that's part of the reason we started this here in Austin as this energy from the tech sector, um, Bitcoin,

you got the comedy scene. Like it feels like a lot as close as an incredible town, particularly, particularly around this corner that we're on right now is like, he's like, and like you said, we're cranks to a certain extent. So people think we're crazy,

but it's like, no, like if you guys just add a sprinkle, a little Bitcoin to what you're trying to do, Can I drop a theory on you, why that's happening? Why? So I worked at Lockheed in strategy, and we would talk about, I was cubicle-drawn, I didn't do anything important,

but I was on the strategy team. And we would talk about the radars and the missiles and the airstrips and everything about the South China Sea, but we would never talk about nuclear weapons. And that was really puzzling to me. until i met malcolm collins who was a vc in korea and he would go talk to investment uh banks and and people who were involved in vc and nobody would ever talk about the birth rate in korea which is equally existential for the korean people

and i started putting it together and i was like you know if uh if you make a if you're if you're a PM at Lockheed or a VP or something, a director, and you decide internally that I'm going to place a bet on nuclear war, global thermonuclear war, how do you cash in your chips when you win? Like, how do you make an internal bet that's right and then you get something? You get a promotion. You get to raise something. Well, you kind of can't because if you're right, that thing's going to zero, the whole

thing. Congrats, you won. You're dead. Right. But similarly, how do you make a bet on, to be clear, individuals can make a bet on nuclear war, right? They can build the bunker, they can whatever. But like the institution will not survive. So if you're climbing that ladder and you want to stay on that ladder, you just kind of have to say, well, probably nuclear war won't happen.

And in Korea, it's similar. It's like no one, no internal constituency within that institution can place a winning bet on the collapse of Korean fertility and what that's going to mean. The way to place that winning bet is to get out of that institution. And I think similarly with Bitcoin, if you're catching people who are climbing a ladder that is sort of predicated on the dollar not collapsing, there's no way for them internally to win if they're right. The only way for them to win if they're right is to get out and get into Bitcoin. So it doesn't surprise me that they're not wanting to sort of cross the streams. You kind of have to jump off. Yeah.

Well, yeah, that's a very good point. And it makes a lot of sense. And just like you say, it creates opportunities for you to make investments. Yeah. And that's the kind of thing we want to talk about at the conference. How can people who are aware of this

set themselves up to succeed? And I think there's, and that's, I get crank, crank, but crank. It's a fun word. Maybe too optimistic. no particularly or anybody following you to the show is like not aware but i'm gonna sound crazy i'm looking right now i'm gonna sound crazy but we've heard the meme of a manufactured soft landing in the news whether that's from the treasury biden administration trump administration

the federal reserve the conversation of soft landing like how do we thread the economic needle via perfect policy decisions on interest rates and monetary base expansion and contraction and treasury issuance i truly think bitcoin is the way you manufacture a soft landing because to your point um a lot of people may be thinking i can't cross pollinate with bitcoin because it completely negates what i've what i've worked my whole life to get up to and the system i i built up within and i agree like i'm like i'll give you that like it could collapse uh i do think bitcoin is superior and ultimately the system that you built your career in and uh the way it wired your brain is completely wrong view of the world uh a decade two decades from

now i think it's going to look completely different but you're going to have this transitionary period and bringing it back the system that we've built up particularly financially within the banking system is just filled with a bunch of shit that um that needs to be recapitalized refinanced essentially and we're beginning to see the the beginnings of it and you can see it in microstrategy with their convertible debt we've got a portfolio company that's underwriting commercial real estate loans where it's dual collateralized with the property and bitcoin like they're saying all right we're going to give you cash to refi pay off your existing mortgage here's a little cash to make some changes to the property upgrade it and here's

some cash to buy bitcoin to hold within the loan structure and it's a 10-year loan the longer you hold the loan the more bitcoin you get at the end so you sort of incentivize people to stay in pay it off create income make sure they're running a good business and so while i get the feeling and understand the feeling of people in that world saying i can't get into bitcoin because will collapse everything i do it's like it could if you don't do it the right way but there is this sort of like you can just inject bitcoin little by little and transition into this harder money by recapitalizing the shit debt with better collateral in the form of bitcoin right i think that would be how you'd have to think about it you'd have to give them a get give them an escape

patch yeah yeah that's fascinating yeah i guess the right approach yeah sorry i don't talk a lot i don't know how deep down the bitcoin rabbit hole you are uh i'm not terribly i mean i hold it but i don't i don't uh i'm not i'm not in that world and that's why i'm excited is again going back to whether it's like the vc world finance world but i think um i've talked to like ben about this and others uh talk to the guys at the blaze about this like i think and i hate to make it political but like it is very obvious like the conservative movement that has these goals that they want to get to and i think a lot of people on the conservative side of the the aisle are missing like bitcoin is a tool to help bring about um that ultimate goal that you're striving toward

absolutely absolutely i think i i think a lot of uh republicans and republican money are sort of uh getting shook loose uh by the by the sort of the new paradigm uh and it's it's a really exciting time i've been reaching out to politicians and basically saying like look this is uh i am i am interested to hear from anybody on any political of any political persuasion i all i care about is like survival and and and flourishing and thriving and i want everybody to do it like by the way like a lot of people have this like triumphalism about like you know we're gonna outbreed the libs or whatever because they're not having kids that's true but i think it's bad like i i like the the temperaments the types of people who are

currently uh chasing experiences and chasing careers and not having kids many of these people are incredibly productive incredibly creative and like they create beauty and and and and utility and all kinds of good things that I think we should have and that we want. And so I don't actually want to see them wiped out. I want them to figure this out and get on side. Having said that, this issue of natalism lays bare the total inadequacy of liberalism

to like deal with the problems of our time it it totally exposes like even by their own standards like it won't be good for poverty it won't be good for the developing world it won't be good for the planet it it's not like none of the stuff that they would are it's not going to be good for uh uh racial comedy or equality or any of that stuff's gonna be terrible for all those things so like even by its own by their own sort of framework their own value system it's falling apart and it's falling apart because they can't persuade people to have kids and so like i've been i've been reaching out to politicians and i've been i've been saying like look this this issue number one it it unites the clans it brings together so many different tribes of of

people who otherwise would have very little in common um i think it's like bitcoin in that respect uh but it also it it provides a fundamental like a like a like a manichaean binary between the light and the dark like do you want life and flourishing do you want extermination like that those are the choices that are being sort of set before you and uh and it's an incredibly powerful framing and so we're sort of trying to to to get this get people more involved with that yeah i think one of the most potent memes like the last five to seven years has probably just been labeling the davos globalist blob class as malthusians yeah like their policies their stated policy goals and not even their goals but the uh what they identify as

the core of the problem is the human right biomass yeah they need to i mean climate change is the perfect example if we need less humans because we're destroying the planet so stop breeding stop using energy um you're a bad you're a bad human and collectively humans are being a human yeah and i think people went along with that for a certain period of time but i think it's all i think we're finally at a point i don't want to say i made the mistake of uh calling p clown world like three years ago and i'll never i'll never try to time the top of clown world but it does i get i get ragged on a lot for that uh p clown world call so i'm not going to call p clown world but i will say uh it does seem like many people are coming to their senses like this

is the malthusian frame is wrong and we need to reorient and with the usaid thing it's it's it's shocking how much work has gone into pushing that do you know how many i heard this recently do you How many times Paul or, you know, Paul Ehrlich, Population Bomb, wrote the book about, you know, everything's going to, you know, that's where Soylent Green comes from. We're going to live in a trash world because there's going to be too many people. And how many times he went on Johnny Carson? 18 times. Holy shit. Right.

It's a pure mockingbird. They just had him over and over and over and over to pump that. i didn't tell you this and it didn't hit me until last week but we were um i guess indirectly targeted by usaid we can really the center for countering digital hate put us on a list oh boy we're on a list uh particularly about climate change we are we are new deniers according to them but they got funded by usa id so u.s taxpayers have contributed to oh yeah getting this channel on a on a list that's great i mean that was my doxing my my doxing was paid for by not i don't know if it was usa id but it was it was it was state involvement for sure yeah i don't

know if you want to dive into the doxing story but um i have like a surface layer understanding what happened like you were working and somebody at work found your twitter account no no no no um basically i i was already on so so uh a reporter at the guardian was actually this is this is how this is the state involvement a reporter at the guardian was funded by the german intelligence services to create a uh hate speech web of twitter basically and it's funny because so i'm a latter-day saint and uh there were all these like camps and it was like the the tech bros and the right-wing bodybuilders and the neo-pagans and the and then because they were like circling uh clusters on the map and one of the clusters was like random guys with followers

like we don't know who these guys are it was because it was us it was this it was this latter-day saint uh twitter so we would joke about like random guys with followers extremism random guys with followers nationalism um but uh but yeah so basically um i knew that they were on to me for about a year and i had this decision to make like you know do i uh you know do i do i shut her down and basically i concluded that like apart from my family it was like the only meaningful thing i was doing with my day was this communication it's talking and uh and and so i was like no i'm just gonna i'm gonna keep going and and so when they finally doxed me there was a there was an antifa doxing ring out of uvu there's like this trans professor of socios something i don't remember

anyway um they got into a group chat that we were a part of uh and and basically rolled up like half a dozen of us or a dozen of us or something and uh we you know every week we would watch as some other guy got the oxen so i was like right in the middle of this uh this event this infiltration yeah yeah yeah i i think i was like the fourth out of like a dozen and uh basically on monday uh you know because i worked for um a secure a defense contractor intelligence contractor and so like you know at other companies i i would you know if somebody accused me of having an on twitter account i would kind of be like you know fuck you prove it right but this was like i had clearance so i had to go report it to security and be like this happened um so monday i was told

you know go home while we figure this out and uh wednesday i was fired and uh that friday i started exit and basically what happened was i had a bunch of people reach out to me and be like hey you know uh we we want to help like some of them you know they were concerned for me personally which i really appreciated but like more than that it was august of 2021 it was right as the vax mandates were coming out it was it was kind of uh not peak woke but it was it was kind of a really dark period a low point and a lot of people were just like they can't keep getting away with this they can't keep just having these uncontested and just knocking our people out with no recourse and um so people were trying to help me out and i and i love that and i was trying to

help my friends out who were being fired and i thought you know instead of me just taking one of these jobs what if we just all got together and we started to like work on this problem which not the problem of doxing per se but just the problem that we were totally at the mercy of these people who hated us how could we be more sovereign how could we build something that that we were really in control of um and you know toward that end one of what so we we got together we had i had 70 guys sign up in the first two weeks which is incredible so i was like all right them onto something and uh we've we've built it from there but uh we we quickly realized like what are we what are we actually doing here why do we feel the need to like run our mouths on the

internet like what what are we uh what are we fighting for why are we opposed to this system and you know i would talk to people of various faiths and like some of these guys aren't aren't religious they're like nichian vitalists or whatever you know and uh whom i respect uh love those guys but uh but uh we we were like what are we about together and it's like well if we don't speak up if we don't fight back they're going to sterilize our kids they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna make it so that we can't continue what we're because what we are doing what we have is a threat to that power and our ability to speak and so uh so it was like yeah it's it's about it's about do we get to have grandkids or not and then we watched um i was

at an exit meetup and we were watching tucker carlson's documentary the end of men which is uh roig nationalist and a couple other friends talking to like tucker and rfk about like what is the you know what's the cause of the sperm sperm count decline uh the obesity epidemic the microplastics the xenoestrogens all that stuff and i said you know this is the fundamental problem is are we going to have grandkids this is what it's all about why don't we get people together to talk about that as a as a big picture issue not just uh not just the medical side of it but the whole the sociological the ideological and uh yeah so that was that was the genesis of exit and then the conference and so exit's still going we've got 230 guys and uh we we have i just just

had a meet up in dallas uh last night they've got a co-work up there with the new founding guys i don't know if you're familiar with them i am actually um uh we should they've recorded in this before awesome awesome yeah so they're they're good friends we collaborate a lot and um we've got a pretty solid crew in houston austin and dallas which is sort of why i made the choice to move down here and then a big cluster in in salt lake and uh and like new york dc hell yeah so no it's awesome to see and that's it's something uh it's funny independently like that's what i a lot of bitcoiners have thought about this as well again lowering time preference building family hopefully yeah many bitcoiners talk in like the context like how do you build

generational wealth and then pass it down right so that's something i'm fascinated about as a topic just in general it's just um the transfer of wealth over generations and how do you actually set up things so that your kids don't blow it and your grandkids don't blow it and then one of our guys is actually an estate planning attorney who that's his whole game is how do i set how do i help you structure your business so that uh your kids can inherit it and pass and it becomes a patrimony a meaningful patrimony yeah and more importantly like how do you instill the values where yeah it's all part of kids aren't brats and they want to contribute to the family business or feel pride in the wealth and responsibility to preserve hopefully grow it

and pass it on to their kids he would say that he did a whole presentation to this on this to the guys was tremendous but uh he would say that the families that are the most successful in instilling that are families that take responsibility for some component of their community that's like in line with their in line with their business arrangements but also sort of in line with their values like i think he was talking about i can't remember the nature of their business but it had something to do with water uh treatment or processing or something and like uh apparently there's a family that like their whole thing is like we're responsible for the trinity river in dallas and we it's it's our job to take care of that river and um so so like having a generational

vocation almost yeah yeah generational vocation is a good word for it like like uh something to be about that isn't just like filling dad's shoes because that's obviously time bound and a pretty like imperfect target yeah that's actually really interesting yeah i'll put you in touch with him um this has been great i know you're gonna get out of here uh i can't wait for the conference yeah man it's gonna be a great time natalism.org natalism.org where else can people go uh natalism.org on twitter is probably the best place to find uh and then i'm extra dead jcb i've been doing a lot of the, the sort of natalism posting. Uh, so yeah, those places and then exit group.us is for the group. Um, if anybody's interested in that, but yeah, it's, it's March

28th and 29th here in Austin, Texas, downtown. And it's, uh, it's, uh, we're going to do like offer code Marty for, uh, for 10% off. So, uh, so yeah, come on down, check it out, Kevin. Thank you. You're crushing it, dude. Thanks man. Peace and love. Thank you.