TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #598: What UAPs Suggest About Reality with Jesse Michels

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

Marty sits down with Jesse Michels to discuss UAP disclosure, bitcoin's potential role in Fermi's Paradox, time travel, and more. Jesse on Twitter: https://x.com/AlchemyAmerican American Alchemy: https://www.youtube.com/Jessemichels 0:00 - Intro 0:36 - Jesse's show and Matt Pines 8:22 - UAP rabbit hole 15:10 - The pyramid has no top 21:15 - Fold & Coinkite 22:52 - What to focus on 30:07 - Is Bitcoin the Great Filter? 37:12 - Using alien tech 44:55 - Unchained Event 45:26 - Bitcoin mining and difficulty adjustment 1:00:42 - Fixing the Fed with bitcoin 1:12:22 - Swamp draining 1:29:48 - Centralization of disclosure 1:36:28 - Prophecy and telepathy 1:40:34 - What happens upon widespread understanding 1:52:09 - Libertarians - Sovereign Individual 1:55:26 - Time travel 2:13:13 - Cosmic community and manifestation 2:21:10 - Taking the third path Shoutout to our sponsors: Fold https://tftc.io/fold Coinkite https://coinkite.com Unchained https://unchained.com/tftc/ Join the TFTC Movement: Main YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/c/TFTC21/videos Clips YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUQcW3jxfQfEUS8kqR5pJtQ Website https://tftc.io/ Twitter https://twitter.com/tftc21 Instagram https://www.instagram.com/tftc.io/ Nostr https://primal.net/tftc Follow Marty Bent: Twitter https://twitter.com/martybent Nostr https://primal.net/martybent Newsletter https://tftc.io/martys-bent/ Podcast https://www.tftc.io/tag/podcasts/

You've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free. When you talk about a Fed just gone nuts, all the central banks going nuts. So it's all acting like safe haven. I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor. i mean that's part of the bull case for bitcoin if you're not paying attention you probably should be probably should be no i know how it is traveling i mean i i respect the hell out of what you do because we stay stationary in this studio we'll do it in person and then we'll do

remote but you're a road warrior road warrior and yeah just don't have a handle on my life or schedule it's impressive and it's actually something i was just telling you i've got kids so it's like i am a road warrior in some regards for 1031 i'm on the road at this point like every other week at least um that's for the fund and i just haven't developed the muscle to coordinate episodes for the show and the cities that i travel to but yeah i think that having watched your youtube channel over the last six months it's one thing i think really adds value to your shows like showing up and meeting with these people where they are and yeah it's definitely it's yeah it's like uh also like you know we're not at like rogan level like we don't have like

the full leverage at times to like get like big hit or guess and so if you're like i'll just go out there i'll make you like a free documentary like nobody's gonna is that how you frame it to them sometimes yeah like especially if i am gonna do like a lot more like b-roll and editing in the post-production and that's like a real you know thing i can deliver on yeah i think and i think that's kind of hard to turn down too it's like we'll illustrate your work in like a pretty deep you know way we'll like really expound upon it and it's not just going to be like one of these run-of-the-mill circuit podcasts yeah um but yeah i think it's good like to have i don't know like a setup in new york maybe one in la like some of the big hubs at least but or like find people out

there with like turnkey situations but i definitely don't have it like fully dialed i don't know if what i'm doing is sustainable or makes any sense i mean i i'm sustainable i don't know it's up to you to determine your energy levels but i think the show so for my audience is probably not too well acquainted with your door bitcoin show and cover macro but i've had two people independently message me on signal and say you need to get this guy on the show one jonathan kirkwood who's uh co-founder of the fund i work for and the other is matthew pines who funnily enough recorded with you love the last time he was in austin we met up for drinks that night we actually wound up staying in the studio it was a friday night till like 2 a.m talking

about the conversation that you guys had oh wow awesome and the topics that um that you cover on your show he's brilliant he's like he's like if you were to like handcraft a podcast guest i think it would be matt pines well that and like we were extremely lucky to have him in the bitcoin space particularly with the bitcoin policy institute because he can speak that language articulately and really put bitcoin in the framework of of policy like very few people can i don't understand how he has the intellectual pliability to do that and then do like deep research into the uap stuff and like you know right you know help write legislation there i don't know if he's helping legislation but do like think tanky stuff in that world too like it's it's and then ai is what like

he's he's truly a kind of a renaissance man polymath yeah um and he's also just like very low ego too which is uh you know very low ego yeah that's funny i remember the first time he brought up the uap stuff to me in the bitcoin space he's been around for many years now at this point but i think it was in nashville two or three years ago we were at uh a space similar to this it's actually bitcoin park austin um same company runs this place here more than nashville um and we were there and he was a bit coy about opening up about his uh fascination with the uap stuff shows you how far we've come because now he's like doing podcasts on ufos yeah and that's funny and like you guys are buddies and he was like i don't know i don't want to talk about

now he's like called it well i was with us actually so for those who are unaware jesse runs an incredible youtube channel you put on rss too right yeah yeah podcast american alchemy american alchemy yeah and i was with matt in dc on tuesday and i was telling him that we're gonna sit down for a conversation how to frame and i think he he helped the setup for this and the uap stuff individually definitely nowhere near i don't even i wouldn't even consider myself having officially like jumped in the rabbit hole to explore i've had conversations with you pines stay out yeah but you've gone full boring well i think it's like bitcoin where and people are always gonna i don't know they i had matt on and we spoke about bitcoin for 30 minutes and they like

they i think and this isn't something we should talk about i feel like they equate bitcoin with like solana meme coins right now and it's like they're you're a grifter and it's like what are you talking about those two things are entirely different and one is like you know i think extremely pure at least in its intent and like ideal form and like in a very interesting kind of cs update and then um yeah the other it represents like kind of you know financial and personal sovereignty and then you know the other is like a grift and like they're just entirely different things but um yeah i think it's similar to bitcoin ufos and bitcoin in that like once you dive in it's really hard it's this rabbit hole you know they call it the same thing with with

bitcoin just like once you get like you're like who is satoshi like what's going on you like read the white paper and then you get into like the mystery of who he is and then you figure you know the double spending thing and you're like oh my god this is insane and this is like the coolest thing ever and and then you kind of become this like evangelist and and i'm sure you i don't know i like that that word is cringeworthy and like evangelist maybe isn't the right thing but you you do you're like this is really cool and you want other people to know that it's cool i think it's similar with ufo stuff yeah i mean this is why this studio exists i became maniacally obsessed with bitcoin 12 years ago it's a great time to become unfortunately for me i was a poor college

student but uh i don't think it matters yeah the uh yeah so i was like i was just putting some of my paycheck into bitcoin and studying it for four years then in 2017 started writing about it to educate friends and family and put the link on twitter and the list grew and then funnily enough i met somebody from barstool sports i was in new york at the time and he'd read the newsletter and he was pumping uh to the barstool fans in july of 2017 everybody go buy ethereum and i dm'd him i was like this is literally the worst time to tell people to buy ethereum in retrospect it literally was was the pico top of the eth ptc pair and so i met with him i was like yeah with barstool like somebody write about bitcoin he's like no and you probably shouldn't just write

about it you should start a podcast and so that's how this started super cool back in 2017 but no just maniacally obsessed and evangelizing at this point 12 years in just embrace we want to call me bitcoin maxi an evangelist a cult member well i think it's like your your your conviction is contagious and like when there's you can't fake like authentic conviction anything and like even like when we got lunch you know i don't know like a month ago i came out of that being like i'm god i'm so bullish on bitcoin like on a long time horizon not like some short-term macro trade thing but like this is epic you know like this is going to change everything and uh i think when you come away you know interacting with certain people who are that you know high they've clearly like

gone down these rabbit holes and they've come out like this is this incredibly important thing that's just that spreads naturally and that's i think a really cool thing yeah and i'm beginning to catch it uh with our conversation and the conversations i've had with matthew and so yeah I mean, I guess, how did you fall down this rabbit hole? Yeah. So I, I think I always was open to reality being like weirder than meets the eye growing up. Um, and I, like, I don't know, I was, I was, I was interested in kind of philosophy and

like, uh, you know, somewhat out there ideas. Like there's this thinker named Rupert Sheldrake who is like, he's known as like this parapsychologist and he studies these things called morphic fields. and it's like if you get like a thousand people to do your crossword puzzle you know uh today then tomorrow you get you know new people to do that crossword puzzle and then a new crossword puzzle and they'll do the one that's like already been done by a thousand people like incrementally a little bit faster or whatever so like weird empirical science stuff like that that i think represent anomalies can't be turned into to math or made repeatable on like a you know uh uh uh

you know extremely repeatable like technology or whatever but like to me represent like a harbinger or like a tell on like what the next scientific paradigm you know might be but outside of that like wasn't into ufos per se even when the 2017 so in 2017 there's this article that came out uh with the new york times leslie kane who's a you know staff writer there who uh had been interested in other things you know she had written about like um near-death experiences and she'd written a book about ufos in the 90s so she had expressed kind of you know an interest in like kind of out there out there subjects and in 2017 she publishes this article uh you know saying that they're you know these these three videos and uh you know the

gimbal the go fast and and nimitz um now i think you know it's probably two out of those three are actually legit um uh but uh uh you know she she did and she talks about like these programs where you know they've been studying ufos this program called osap from 2007 to 2012 and i actually wasn't even into ufos then in like 2018 2019 i've been working for peter teal at his family office and part of the role was investing so like venture stuff and then uh the other part of the role was just bringing in interesting thinkers and like you know i ran our speaker series and that sort of thing and you know he's like this extremely heterodox you know kind of intellectually voracious guy who's like he's not looking to do your typical circuit of speakers like i you know

i couldn't just redo like summit series you know at teal capital and like have that work you know he wouldn't have been happy and i don't think you know anybody would have been there he really fostered kind of an you know an intellectually kind of rebellious environment in a very cool way and um naturally when you're getting into the fringes of knowledge you bump into ufos and so i've you know thought i'd bring in like you know one or two ufo people who are were of the highest sort of pedigreed background um so like one was gary nolan who's this nobel nominee every year and he's you know stanford you know tenured professor microbiologist and he claimed to have parts from a ufo crash in his possession that he can that he claimed contained isotope ratios

that you know don't naturally occur on earth and he also you know said that there's a part of the brain where if it's more neuronally dense you're more likely to see ufos and so i'm like what that like you just combine like the background and the claims and i'm like this is really worthy of investigating this is crazy and i speak to him for like a little bit and you know we bring him in and i'm like this guy's not nuts like maybe this is out there but it's not it's not like beyond the pale it's not mushy brain thinking it's not like this everything is everything thinking and like you know matt pines like you know i didn't even know him at the time but now that it's popular you know it becomes this kind of lighthouse thing where like you know uh like-minded thinkers kind

of congeal and like matt's an extremely lucid thinker on like all these other things and like so is it like is is the uap thing like the one place where it's like that's just a total aberration like his brain had fallen out in this one area and you so you meet more and no is the answer you know in my opinion at least um and so you meet more and more of these people i've met jacques valet as well as for the french godfather of ufos and but he you know is a kind of came from like a traditional astronomy background um and worked on the earliest version of the internet arpanet with doug engelbart at xerox park um and it was like you know you speak to him and he's like very reasonable and so like once you get to like you know uh i think richard dawkins who

i'm honestly not the biggest fan of in all contexts but like he's a great quote that i'll paraphrase and probably botch a little bit but it's like uh you have to multiply um you know the percentage that something is true by the implications of it being true and that's like the worthiness of studying it so if it's like five percent aliens ten percent aliens that's like really important you know because the the basically knock-on consequences of it being true and people finding out are orders of magnitude yeah above any anything that would happen somewhat naturally in markets totally it's a it's a single update that changes everything like if i were to say like you know i don't know something about you know putin's orientation

towards ukraine or or g or you know whatever like these are extremely consequential things with like ripple effect you know as far as like these are like important geopolitical actors and that's what like these macro funds like are always thinking you know they're trying to like get inside the heads of these like state act whatever but um the aliens thing it's like oh so like then at that point is like are all politics sort of you know some like you know um you know are we just like pawns and some higher thing it's like our like a lot of our like technological you know you know and so there are some ways in which like it could be true but not like functionally matter in certain contexts and it could be like weakly tangled with our reality for a reason and you

know it's like star trek there might be like a prime directive going out you know like there are all these way like counter arguments to kind of what i'm saying but if you're if you're a truth seeker which i i like to think i am um you know you just want ontological truth then like you know the second you're like oh it's like you know somewhat decently high probability that this stuff is real like i couldn't look away and so like i moved from conventional venture job to like you know it's this like sort of sliding scale there's opportunity cost obviously looking into this stuff and so it was like you know 90 10 venture this and then it would just it's just slide up slide up slide up and i think as i've been watching your show and observing from i would

say far for for a couple of years now and i think that's for me personally and i imagine this is true for most people who are on the outside looking in that's why i'm happy to be sitting down with you specifically because you've talked to so many of the individuals in the space it seems like there's no continuity in the exact narrative whether it's on the metaphysical side of the potential technologies that we've discovered that change how we understand physics and the technologies that we can build um and then on the other side the implications of that and the added um sort of disclosure of all this and the the what seems to be a debate about how to actually go about disclosure if it's happening yeah it's like i think it's completely wild wild

west territory and two things i think can be true one is you can have kind of incontrovertible evidence that there's a there there and i always start with like you have to force rank like your kind of you know evidence stack if you will and first on the list for me would be like you know this great book called the ufos and nukes by a guy named robert hastings journalist he was actually the son of a radar operator at malmstrom base in montana and he's just documented almost 170 guys icbm security personnel radar operators who see uh saucers tic tacs orbs like the same sort of things flying around our most sensitive sites across the u.s and often tampering with the nukes themselves and shutting them down for periods of time and stuff and so i think like

there's that and there's i mean there's so much other stuff but like so there's like clearly like this nuclear connection and then you you know like there are all these like you know reasons to believe like the government has interacted with this and that you know it's actually like ufo secrecy sort of bound up a nuclear secrecy and the atomic energy commit uh act of 54 and the atomic energy commission later um really sort of governed the secrecy around this and there are all these sort of cia ties as well and so you can go deep down those rabbit holes and then the really weird thing that you're kind of pointing at is like when like the deeper you get the more you're like oh i think i'm gonna meet some like ufo godfather architect person

it's like in the matrix like you're gonna meet the oracle and they're gonna like tell you how it works or that scene in contact where jodie foster gets taken like onto this plane and you have this like billionaire guy and like he had been like kind of tracking her and like you expect that moment to come and it never comes and like you meet certain people with the reputation for being you know like the top of the pyramid guy or whatever and they don't clearly have the full picture you know and we're talking about like ontological truth so like why would somebody in the government necessarily you know like their orientation towards it would be like how can this like confer any sort of tactical advantage and that's like the frame through which they're studying this thing it's

not this you know leisurely contemplation of the universe of you know like i actually think maybe something like the institute for advanced study at princeton in like the 40s maybe somebody somebody there might like have like you know more of a top of the pyramid view like einstein or something you know then you know the current contemporary people on the on the topic um so that can be extremely frustrating and then you you get in all these questions of like at what level is this stuff being coordinated because i've heard of extremely high up people in government who like if i were to say their positions it would freak you out like as far as you know their their you know their positions and then like they're they're being aware of this

topic and they're like pissed because they're not read in but they're like deputies are like it's this weird thing where like the chain of command doesn't make any sense it's almost like the three body problem or some of these other sci-fi novels where you have like this science program going on that's kind of off the books and in the black but it's so black it's not just like some like special access pro it's not like one special access but there are probably many special access programs that deal with this so you can locate them and i do think you know it's worthy to like think think about where you can locate them like you had this thing immaculate constellation come out this you know special access program that michael schallenberger dropped and he testified

before congress about this whistleblower that spoke to him about this thing so that's like one example but then you get into like how is it coordinated because it's like you had you hear about like lockheed and northrop and you know cia and doe and like it's you almost get into these things where it's like it's like cutouts of each of these organizations but they're being coordinated on a level that like don't it almost doesn't even seem human or something or it like seems like loosely coordinated via like synchronicities or serendipity or it's very very strange um and so yeah it's just very i mean like another good example you have this whitney webb book here like you read these like books and you're like almost more confused like you're like how the

what the fuck like what's going on you know yeah like it's like you know it's like so many details of like these you know this like loose constellation of like an amorphous power structure that like you said is in the black yes it's but it's like a blob it's like it's like this octopus blob and it's and you know whenever you think like oh that's like the you know the like evil architect or whatever like it's like i don't like klaus schwab or something again like i've had like a friend one friend meet him and he's like that guy's like kind of a joke like he's like i thought i was expecting some evil villain or whatever and he's like that's just like you know and you hear that like time and time again and so it's like so it's like

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if you're just a bitcoin or wants to secure your bitcoin get the most secure hardware wallet on the market go get the cold card queue it's a beautiful thing that's why i think it makes it so i mean you would know this much better than i ever from my vantage point like just uh i'm it's almost frustrating and you use the word frustrating it's frustrating for me because it's like all right what is the signal here what should we be focusing on is it like you mentioned lockheed all these uh defense contractors these weapons manufacturers and one of the theories is they have access to this technology and they're keeping it close-knit because they want to leverage it and they don't want the tech to get out there so that they can have uh an advantage

yeah corporate standard uh standpoint um just to get things out to market faster and profit from them but then you also have the side which is like this information simply cannot get out to the public because it would be so mind-bending um and it would create an existential crisis globally almost right yeah and then you have the other side where we should probably begin to disclose this because the technology is so powerful that we could probably leverage it to advance humanity significantly yep and then then you have the whole like spiritual side and yeah the metaphysical of like are we actually in control of our reality yeah yeah yeah and so like having gone down this rabbit hole interviewed all these people like what how

would you frame it of like where's the signal out what to focus on and how to create like a mental framework to approach this yeah well i think that the mental framework is like yeah you have like you can't not be led by intuition so i think that's a it's like in any sort of super frontier territory if you are mostly in the dark and it's kind of unprecedented you actually have to like listen to your gut listen to your intuition if you don't you're going to get like sort of managed by like you know people who are trying to engage in sort of narrative control or like you know mess with you or whatever so i think listening to your gut is actually extremely important as far as the purveyors of the information you know itself and then as far

as gathering evidence i think it has to be like any other scientific process so for me i do force rank you know i think i think people should you know take their own experiences extremely seriously like i don't believe we live in sort of this like age of disenchantment like don't trust your eyes rationalist you know so your eyes can be fallible you know it's like but what else do you have your your eyes are the thing that are intaking like what you measure you know in some you know quantum measurement device you know then like how can you say like an electron is real or whatever you know like what is the basis of belief for anything so i think trusting yourself and your eyes and your own experiences and i think if people were to audit their own experiences they'd

actually be far more of what they would consider paranormal than they you know like they're way more synchronicities and interesting stuff going on with themselves than they than they realize and then i'd look to like you know you know the public sort of database and to me it is that that book ufos and nukes is like you want to look for science has to be repeatable like it's like the francis bacon you know so so if if ufos are inherently some ephemeral like weakly entangled thing that just show up you know by definition randomly it's they're very hard to study so i would start with two things as far as what why they show up uh nuclear and then sort of consciousness and the consciousness thing is a little more wishy-washy it's a mixed bag so

if we just throw that out for a second the nuclear thing it's like okay so you have 170 whistleblowers who you know say that they see the same things they're tampering with comms links you know and like shutting down nukes and we actually have like records of the nukes actually being shut shut down like there's you know an fe warren base in wyoming was shut down for you know 59 minutes according to this is reported on by the atlantic and the president obama was briefed on this this was you know 2010 article and this guy robert hastings who wrote this book he had published it in 2008 and brought actually a lot of these whistleblowers forward they've been on larry king with him um and i've interviewed many of them and they're totally above board they're like they

they were not only q cleared at the time and they were on what's called the prp program where they were uh screened for inherently being the you know of the most sound mind why would you ever let somebody who's nuts near you know nuclear uh uh missiles i mean it's crazy um so uh uh yeah he he back channeled with the guys at fe warren and this through this retired uh missile technician named john mills and they attribute the outage to this tic-tac shaped object flying around the airspace um and so like you have something that's being corroborated and reported on like in like normal mainstream inside the beltway like washington media or whatever and then you get these like eyewitness accounts and that happens time and time again like again 170 times and so

it's hard to i mean you quickly the null hypothesis once especially you meet some of these people and they're like you know very sound mind beyond reproach they're like angry at what happened to them in certain cases they've they've experienced a lot of blowback one of them you know they attempted to delete him from the government this guy bob jacobs who saw a ufo wraparound in atlas dummy warhead in 1964 at vandenberg and then they had to like admit that he actually was a part of the government this entire time you know and he had managed 130 people as a photo instrumentation specialist at vandenberg and so you you go through enough of these things you go through say like five or ten of these things and you're like there there there has to be a there there and then if

there are 170 of these guys think about the preference falsification think about like the culture of shame and humility and secrecy involved in like our nuclear programs so then you have to say it's probably thousands you know thousands of these nuclear employees have probably experienced this stuff and then you could say oh well maybe it's this like american mk ultra co-located program like you just quickly you see it it's like the null hypothesis starts to get weird right where it's like what do you what what can you even propose to explain this stuff away do you say oh it's like this mk ultra thing and they're doing it around the nuclear sites and they're co-locating there and then you go okay well they're actually ufos showing up all around the world at nuclear

sites and there's there's a town in japan called leno which is next to the fukushima prefecture there um vice did a documentary on it in 2022 because the whole town is obsessed with ufos and they built a museum dedicated to ufos in the 90s and it's you know famously fukushima is famous for their you know their spill for their nuclear spill in 2011 um and then one of the guys this like um this this this monk who has this like shinto temple there uh claimed that the ufo came down and helped like you know defend the temple from like nuclear radiation there's similar accounts at chernobyl um there there's uh their commercial pilot sightings above bariloche argentina where they have their civilian nuclear grid so then you get into oh is it like some like global cabal like

quickly you get into like such ontologically weird territory trying to explain it away by just following the evidence that you you have to just admit there's something there there's some sort of non-human intelligent thing going on and then i think the snap to grid easy answer is aliens extraterrestrials but i don't think i don't think it's easy at all i don't think we know what's going on you know i don't think we know you know what like the soup of reality that we are swimming in there's so many i mean it's easy to say we're at the end of history there and that we know how everything works but we never our physical models of the universe at any given time in history are wrong yeah and so why aren't the taxes you know you then you have to say at that point so neil

digressed tyson is is dead wrong like that it would be a historical to say he's we've we've we've dotted the i's and crossed the t's and he's got he has it all right yeah yeah and if you just look at the the course of human history and advances that have been made i think it'd be extremely hubristic to think that totally have all the answers totally and it's the same cycle every time it's like the heretics looking at the anomalies the anomalies are kind of ephemeral and you can't like you know turn them into math immediately but they are this thing and then that like all of a sudden you just this shift happens and like this new paradigm occurs and it's like oh my god yeah yeah you said like everybody goes aliens first like somebody

from outside uh our planet outside the solar system and then i've read some like 4chan green post a couple months ago that was like they're actually coming from the center of the earth and like there's been reports of these orbs coming from the oceans and yes then you think like shit is there something like at the center of the earth and i think the theory and i'm not saying i'm putting a lot of credence into it was just uh it was just an interesting thought experiment by this person on 4chan was this this 4chan whistleblower yeah i think so i don't know if it had something to do with that egg they were talking about in antarctica or uh-huh well those are two different there's and then there was a guy who said that he worked in program and he was

like you know what i'm saying now like will get proven out just like yeah look back at this and he was saying like the the number of events we're seeing in the oceans is rising exponentially and sort of like losing control of what's going on and i think his theory was that there's some non-human intelligence in the bottom of the ocean or the center of the earth that um is worried about our access to nuclear weapons right and they they have a whole society down there that they want to persist and they're worried about us messing it up with with the nukes yeah and i think i think this if it's the same four-chain whistleblower i'm thinking of he says that they're mobile construction units and they build uh the ufos to spec so like it's almost

like they 3d print them it's almost like you know like you had like a von neumann replicator envoy kit that you send out to like manage life on earth and we're like a zoo or something and you just nip at the herd where like you know nuclear or like i've heard of cases of them flying around ai data centers as well like archimedes lever points of like timeline possible timeline changes for humanity or the frontier of science a la the three body problem um would be where they would show up and they would sort of um you know restrain restrain things and like you know cause things to not get get too out of hand but then you get into this a really weird territory where you know we're talking about stuff underwater transmedium you know there are five observables

you know around you know modern ufos or whatever and one of them is that they you know engage in transmedium travel and so you know the the the water thing is is very common the you know and the idea that their bases you know at the bottom of of the ocean is is also something that pops up a bunch um but you get into very weird ontological territory where if the fermi paradox if you can somehow solve it and it's like it's not a paradox and they have visited us you know which i believe then it's highly unlikely that it's just one thing you know like once you it's zero or it's not zero or infinity but it's like it's not zero or one you know so and that's and we were discussing this when we got lunch last month i think the most optimistic outcome of all this

and this increase in interaction with this non-human intelligence is like i was mentioning there's a theory within bitcoin that once you solve the double spending problem uh as a species you sort of get invited to the broader community uh in the cosmos and when it's a combination of bitcoin it's like all right these this intelligent species has figured out how to solve the money problem in the correct way like they've advanced to a point ai like you're mentioning maybe that's another checkbox that that a species needs to hit um to get to that advanced state to where it's like all right maybe they're smart enough to interact with us um again this is in my view what would be the most optimistic outcome is that we've advanced to a point where other non-human

intelligence is looking at us like all right they're advancing and maybe we should make them aware that they're not alone yeah well if you think about science as like uh progressive you know there's this term like like an umwelt like uh you know a lens through which you see the world and there's the the fineman thing is like there's room at the bottom so like you know you go to you know what's like subcork or whatever as far as you know our understanding of like the physical universe you get to like these super micro particles and so i do think uh technology is inherently a lens through which we communicate through which like the the human somehow gets ported into the technology in certain cases like we're just seeing beyond what we can you know with

our with our own like apparatus our own measurement apparatus of like our body and i think a lot of these things whether it's bitcoin or ai are taking us along like really unpredictable interesting tracks where yeah like i don't know i don't know what what do you find that's surprising at the end of that road i mean there's the kind of eliezer yudikowsky thing with like ai where it's like they think of us as like vestigial meat space and they just like you know turn on us it's like it's i think the only thing guaranteed about the future is that it's a it's a surprise it's probably not the thing we're predicting you know maybe it maybe it mess you know kills us with a whimper and not a bang and you get you get you get in a very interesting ontological question so maybe it is

that we um have a better vantage point through which to communicate with the aliens or whatever via ai maybe some comm system that involves ai or maybe some sort of you know like you know something like you know in a different range of like you know uh uh that you know uh something like like microwave signals or something that allow us to communicate you know and like so it's like pushing at the boundaries of of tech you know itself or maybe the tech itself is being seeded by so it's like you look at the history of science there's a great book called bedeviled um by this uh woman named jimena canalas and it's like why do all the why does like descartes say that he like saw a demon in the prussian army you know 17th century and that like showed him the

cartesian plane and then it's kind of like a lot of our science is based on the cartesian plane and was a demon an alien you know or angels and demons aliens which like jacques valet you know french ufologists would say you know probably and then they're you know laplace had a demon and maxwell had a demon and and uh you know it's this sort of like constant trope and in certain cases they're like more like you know thought experiments and they're not like actual entities but a surprising number of scientists have had either experiences with entities or like downloads themselves you know like sort of like science looks more like revelation if you look at the epiphenomena of science um and so that that asks you know that begs some interesting questions

as to like what is driving the ai progress you know like somebody jailbroke you know a chat gpt you know dan or whatever the jailbreak thing it was like uh what is what is chat what is open ai not want us to know and the like whitewashed question you know the non-jailbroken answer was like you know that we're doing everything above board we're committed to ai safety blah blah blah like you know pcbs and then the the uh jailbroken answer was we have been you know open ai has been in touch with advanced extraterrestrial civilization for like the last 10 years and who know you know that's probably a hallucination based on like the average of you know the internet or whatever which is so conspiratorial and weird in and of itself

but it is this interesting thought experiment and the second you so this i would put lower on the probability stack than the nuclear connection with the ufo thing but if you take the accounts of like philip j corso seriously so this is this guy who was an army counter intel and he was um and that part of the psychological strategy board but he was also uh chief of the foreign technology desk uh for the pentagon and he claimed that roscoe hill encoder who was kind of in charge of the roswell cleanup where you know the roswell crash made its way to uh right patterson air force base and there's a lot of evidence that it it did is a ton and there's even a contract between los alamos and um uh right pat uh around uh this this this thing called

nitinol which is this like memory metal that like you know you can put it under high duress or stress and it sort of goes back to its original shape which is exactly what uh jesse marcel who was you know an air force intelligence officer who said that he was forced to like take a photo with this fake you know weather balloon thing or whatever um uh when in fact he was hand handling like real ufo material um you know that's exactly how do he describe the material and then later it comes out that like you know uh you know battelle had been studying this material and you know it sort of became like declassified in the 60s or whatever and so there's like a lot of evidence around that and so he claims there's a sort of um uh golden age of materials uh where you know a lot

of these crashes are taking place and he's responsible for like doling some of this tech out civil side so that you know and then he says you know kevlar and lasers and fiber optics like a lot of these things are actually a result of you know this alien tech there's certain things so there's a co-author of that of the day after roswell the book he was you know uh he wrote that um i guess he only had 24 hours to edit it before it really got released uh corso did and corso has like a you know kind of an unredacted unedited version of that that you know he had written before and i think that that version is more uh legit um and i've heard from some pretty interesting sources that there are elements of that story that that's true but if it is true

to your point yeah maybe it's like uh tech is like a measurement apparatus through which we make contact but maybe a lot of tech innovation itself is being driven by this stuff i mean that's one of the satoshi theories right and satoshi's an alien like popped up pseudonymously out of nowhere yeah gifted us this this protocol that we're using is becoming more popular and more used by the day and it seems pretty robust and it is very unique in the way it melds the physical in the digital world yeah via the mining apparatus particularly oh it's genius yeah it's like creating a it's it's you know they say it's like digital gold but i feel like it's like a better version of gold like it's more more predictable supply you don't have like these

like weird supply shocks and then i mean you're pulling us back to ai as well if you think like bitcoin solves a problem an unsolved problem that the internet had since its launch which is the payment required error 402 like now we're beginning to see and then just like diving down to the theory that maybe like aliens are like planning the technology here now we're beginning to see as bitcoin scaling in layers lightning labs which is working on the the lightning network the layer two technology they've created the l402 protocol so now you can like there are websites and services that are leveraging the 402 layer of https to enable payments on the internet and i think with a lot of people in the space a lot of companies are being built about this concept of

injecting the lightning wallets into ai agents so that they can go and conduct commerce on the web using l402 and so then going down this like maybe again like whoever it was non-human intelligence aliens beings that have been on this planet for a while whatever it may be just sort of sprinkling that uh and if you think of the timing of bitcoin and the rise of ai it's almost too perfect that they're happening in parallel yeah well if it's so it's we i feel like we're reaching some sort of weird tech apotheosis i mean all this stuff seems i don't know how much weight to put in like the the willow you know quantum chip stuff you know it's like this it always feels sometimes like kind of window dressing for these big companies but i don't know you speak to some

people you know on the inside of these companies and they're like actually we think it's kind of a big deal so i don't know there's probably something going on there in the like you know programmable biology space like we're understanding like like how cells function you know on a more granular level and then you have yeah ai the bitcoin stuff and aliens and they're all speeding up and it's really interesting yeah that's the way matt explains it too because he's in bitcoin and in the uap stuff and he's the last few times i've talked to him it's like literal astonishment at how almost exact like perfectly they're tracking in parallel and almost converging yeah at a certain point like the speed at which like you like you were describing

like in the beginning of the conversation how like independently you found i fell down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, you dumb. This rabbit hole and this sort of distributed knowledge sharing that has emerged in both communities over the last 15 years specifically is really fascinating just sociologically to watch play out. Yeah, it's really cool. What's up, freaks? Bitcoin is the ultimate scarce asset.

Join Bitcoin macro expert Nick Batia at a live online event on March 17th for death, taxes, and $21 million. learn how to shield your wealth leverage tax advantaged accounts and secure your bitcoin for future generations your financial advisor accountant or attorney might not be up to speed on bitcoin so invite them join to register now at unchained.com slash tftc that's unchained.com slash tftc march 17th be there do you see like any risks to uh like there's something about a lot of people in both spaces the ufo and bitcoin thing where it's like this is inevitable you know which i think makes it somewhat inevitable or whatever because that's the that's the vibe

or whatever but do you see anything possibly like derailing bitcoin at this point or is it just you know kind of a matter of time long term and you're not sure about the short-term path or i mean just very low probability on some zero day that exists in the code but there's been so many eyes on it and yeah so much testing fuzz testing bug discovery what about the quantum error correction stuff people say you break se you know shaw shaw 256 i mean that's certainly possible but like if quantum comes uh bitcoin's not going to be the first thing to be attacked it's not going be the only thing to be attacked we have bigger finance but like we have like like like the traditional financial system is then https runs on shot 256 is but with that being said i actually

think bitcoin is um the incentive system of bitcoin is such that it actually has the highest likelihood of surviving a quantum attack because the developers working on it themselves hold a lot of bitcoin and they don't want that that value to vanish overnight and so this has been a big discussion in the space particularly after the announcement of willow um and this has been talked about like willow wasn't the impetus for these conversations have been happening for satoshi was in health finney i believe we're writing about it back in 2010 2011 they're writing about quantum yeah and how to and how to basically secure bitcoin public addresses specifically against the threat of quantum and so there are um cryptographic libraries out there that could

be implemented in bitcoin to make sure the addresses are are quantum proof i think where the conversation is now is that that comes with trade-offs like if you adopt these address structures that are quantum resistant it takes a significant amount of data and so you have scaling trade-offs that exist and so i think people are just talking through uh i i don't think anybody is out there saying we're never going to have to implement it i think people acknowledge that if quantum risk is real and is developing in real time that there is going to have to be some some transition to the address structure of bitcoin that is quantum resistant and i think the conversations that are happening right now amongst people that are focused on this

specific problem is like all right what is the optimal way to do this considering the trade-offs for scaling specifically so that we can ensure that bitcoin is sufficiently distributed once we make this move and i'm highly confident that if push comes to shove and the network is forced to adapt it will be able to does it not matter that um mining has become sorry i'm flipping this on you but does it not matter that mining has become uh way more concentrated like i did i don't think satoshi like anticipated you know uh anything beyond like gpus right like did he think about asics and stuff or this is an asic chip right here so this this machine right here has an order of magnitude more hashing power than that that s1 right there really that big that big

shoebox up there yeah i mean that yeah i think this produces like 10x the amount of hash rate that that did and so wow bringing this up because what we're seeing is these chips becoming extremely energy efficient and we're reaching a point of so that's an old bit main yeah it's from like 2013 i believe wow um we're reaching a point where like you can't get much i believe bit main is going to launch a two nanometer chip at some point in the next couple years and you can't go lower than zero who knows maybe some of this uh some of this um physics exchanging information that may come out of the uap discussion changes that but as it stands our understanding now asics are becoming extremely efficient and reaching the limits the physical

limits of how small you can make um the connections on the silicon and so i think we're getting to a point of asic commodification and then you couple that with just the pure supply demand dynamics that exist in the on-grid energy system with AI becoming a massive buyer of power on the grid specifically. And that almost, if that becomes like a massive problem where Bitcoin miners are competing

for energy on the grid with AI compute and the AI companies are able to outbid the miners for on-grid electricity, it is happening, they're going to be pushed off-grid, which naturally distributes hash rate. and we're already seeing this um there's plenty of off-grid operations and so long-winded answer of saying i actually think the natural you end up with like nuclear the natural yeah nuclear

modular reactor i don't know if i was describing this to you at lunch but like if we were about to rip the red tape off of nuclear particularly smrs all these smr companies want to go to remote areas and replace like diesel generation with nuclear and but they had the problem of at the time cost of capital problem where you can build an smr you can get it to this place physically but it takes 18 to 24 months to build out transmission and so you can actually bootstrap and solve that time cost of capital problem by putting an smr down and then co-locating a bitcoin mine right next to it behind the meter and then as you build out that transmission over the course of a year two years whatever it takes um you can actually monetize the the energy before you

connect it to the grid and so that has been one of the big problems for smrs as i understand it to date as they have this time cost of capital problem for transmission and interconnect that bitcoin can solve and so you can see bitcoin being a mechanism to begin to bootstrap that distributed smr energy grid and that's the beauty of bitcoin it's location agnostic the shares that this miner is sending to a pool or kilobytes of data so you can put it like i started a bitcoin mining company where we did flare gas mitigation in the balkans we're in the middle of nowhere north dakota and the amount of data you need to send to a pool is so small you could use cellular cell euler data um so you don't need a ton of bandwidth um and so bitcoin through a combination

of that low level bandwidth that's necessary to have a viable mining operation and the fact that it is uniquely suited to monetize energy resources um with location location agnostic perspective is is powerful um so you can monetize any energy and that's the race in bitcoin mining as hash rate goes up difficulty goes up miners are incentivized to go find the cheapest energy which objectively is stranded wasted energy that is typically not on grid yeah so i remember reading that kathy wood article about like bitcoin mining bootstrapping renewable energy plants into like self-sufficiency and i thought that was very cool it's happening here in texas um so you have wind and solar generation particularly in west texas these massive farms had the problem

wind farms specifically where it would produce so much energy in off-peak demand times typically overnight um that pricing would go negative because they literally have to pay um to to send it to the grid um and so bitcoin miners what we're seeing is they're co-locating in these farms and when overnight when there's no demand for the electricity and they typically have to pay to get it paid for offtake. They just direct it to a mining operation and make money with it. This is all good pushback for the anti-proof of work.

Yeah. That's horrible for the environment sort of people. No, it's incredible. I have my personal views on what an optimal energy mix is for stable baseload on grids. I don't think wind and solar provide that, but objectively and inarguably, bitcoin mining has made those those energy sources more efficient and more profitable yeah

yeah do you what about like i don't know there are conspiracies that like bitmain for example like owns just like a ridiculous amount of of the chain or i don't know like remember what happened with like huawei like is there like a possibility of like backdoor into the hardware architecture itself yeah i mean i think that is the biggest risk is basics themselves okay the chips so you know obviously bitmain dominates they use tsmc um the other dominant player but it's their like the ethereum to to bitmain's bitcoin is micro bt they make what's miners leveraging a samsung fob out of south korea and i think they're gaining market share which is good to see and obviously you have block jack dorsey and the team there has their proto mining team

and they're releasing their own asic and there's other companies coming but yeah bit main problem is a big problem they have backdoored their machines before back in uh 2015 or 2016 it was discovered that they had a backdoor called amp lead where they could remote shut down machines whenever oh and that was discovered by greg maxwell i believe and quickly patched and crazy uh tiff was through that bitmain's uh very controversial isn't very necessary i mean this is a bitmain chip right here it's been taken off the s19 i believe or s21 and put here but that's cool design that's what i think in the industry the miners particularly has become more ingrained in demand response and on-grid operations historically bitmain has kept their

firmware like uh closed and there is aftermarket firmware but you have to jailbreak it uh and it's not ideal so i think a push for open source firmware which is what block is focused on specifically with their their mining chips is that they're going to release open source firmware as well will help mitigate some of those risks because you can audit the code and make sure that none of these remote brick yeah abilities exist super interesting yeah yeah it is a problem i think it can be solved um yep it's uh yeah this the chips i think are bitcoin's weakest link right now but like i said they're getting the problems i believe were worse in the past and they're getting better over time yeah it seems like that on all on all fronts it's like this unkillable

cockroach that just it's like a mutant zombie and every time it like survives some new thing it's just stronger yeah yeah and if you play it out like if god forbid bitmain did have some sort of backdoor where they bricked every bitmain on the market globally the ccp came in and said you know it's time to pull the plug we've got all of our gold the u.s is accumulating all this bitcoin yeah um time to pull the plug that's the beauty of what satoshi designed with the difficulty adjustment specifically is that after a period when you reach the next difficulty retarget which happens every 2016 blocks the network would see like oh shit 70 percent of the hash rate came off the network and we need to adjust down and we've actually had an example of

this not um not in this exact fashion where i don't even know that so there's like a difficulty adjustment once so it's like kind of like like a like almost like surge pricing or or the opposite it like uh yes the network has a a target of block production which is every 10 minutes the network says we want to ensure the blocks are coming in at 10 minutes on average and if they're coming in faster um let's say they're coming in at nine minutes over the course of 2016 block period that signals to the network that a ton of hash rate has come on and we need to it's a bit counterintuitive we need to lower the difficulty target so we need to make make it so the miner that wins a block needs to find a smaller hash which makes it harder to mine to to get that

to get that block production target back to 10 minutes and then conversely if blocks are coming at 11 minutes 12 minutes it's like uh seems like hash rate has fallen off the network so we need to increase the difficulty target to make it a larger hash compared to the last epoch to make it easier to find a block and going back we had an example of this in 2021 when china banned mining and that's right overnight you had 60 of the hash rate come off the network yeah and it performed the difficulty adjustment performed its job difficulty fell i believe 25 the first adjustment and i think maybe 40 after that and then just leveled out got back to 10 minute target cool there was a period there i think after trying to mine or ban bitcoin mining blocks were coming in like 15 to 20 minutes on

average and until we got to the next difficulty adjustment um yeah i just had slower block production that's really interesting i guess a lot of mining still goes on what with like a hydroelectric power in south china yeah yeah it's um a very poorly kept secret in the industry that china probably has like 20 to 30 percent of hash rate still okay wow yeah interesting yeah super cool yeah there's so many little like i don't know details and rabbit holes with bitcoin as far as like figuring out what the hell is going on and i mean that's uh i think bitcoin is extremely anti-fragile i mean it's a shame that nassim taleb uh hates bitcoin but like the way does he hate bitcoin yeah he does he's butthurt about it that's so crazy why i don't know

that was like his thing i mean it's like this tale like event that he originally wrote the forward to the bitcoin standard um he wrote the original forward but why is he butthurt about did he like not not have enough skin in the game i think maybe that's it or he wasn't the one to identify bitcoin as this incredible opportunity first and as a interesting bit of a complex around that yeah well he's very mercurial yeah yeah he blocked me on twitter like six years ago now at this point so i haven't seen anything he said oh damn yeah he's a he's a boss it was a benign like hey like i think he may misunderstand bitcoin um yeah yeah yeah but yeah it's uh yeah he should just i don't know that's kind of whack given i mean he's such an amazing thinker

yeah it's like just it's all good dude just have a socratic debate yeah don't take everything personal but like pulling on the string of bitcoin being this alien technology and like we were discussing at lunch like i think that's another you're saying all these uaps are coming and congregating around these nuclear facilities and yeah the signal that sends me is like there's something out there saying this is very powerful stuff do not yes you can eat you can kill yourself with this like please be careful yes um similarly with money it's like money is very powerful and once you rip opportunity cost out of economic decisions by just printing money and allocating it at whatever you want that that is significantly detrimental to the quality of life of individuals

living in that economy and so like bitcoin is sort of entered the world and it's like we need to solve this problem we need to make sure you can't just print money into base the savings and the purchasing power of everybody using this money um and so like if we're going to go down like bitcoin is alien technology that was introduced to us by some external species like that is that is what would be most likely to me is they notice like you're messing up the money money is a very important tool yes it could be very dangerous if you mishandle it so here is a solution yeah yeah that that basically reorients the economy gets it back to a level playing field totally well it does feel like uh we're seeing a broader hierarchy breakdown

in society like ugly things are coming to light right now and that just feels like across the board kind of true you know whether it's you know stuff whitney webb's talking about or like it's like all these disclosures that are promised and i don't know what the hell is going on why they're taken so long but it's like you know jfk and epstein and uh you know the 9-11 stuff like all these things were supposed to come out i think at some point soon they have to come out and so i i do think there's a way in which bitcoin is more uh just fair and transparent and like it's you know it's like if you read about the federal reserve i mean you would know way more about this stuff than i do but it's like you read like you know the creature of jekyll island or whatever

and like you look into the history of this stuff it's like it's not conspiratorial to say that these were formed by like elite oligopolists and unless you believe that they were completely disinterested in their own you know uh power or something like they i think held a lot of i'm not saying that they like you know control the you know um the federal reserve fully now or whatever like i don't believe that i do think tacitly the federal reserve is like you know kind of in bed with equity holders like you know it's like this like de facto mandate yeah like you know keep the power structure alive or whatever um and the creature from jackal islands turn into this frankenstein that is i would imagine for them becoming more of a problem than something that

um that is beneficial to them in the long run because oh that's interesting because the negative externalities they've introduced into the market are driving the social incohesion that is really turning people against the elite uh it's so funny that's like the same judo move people use in the uap world where it's like it's in their best interest to let it out or whatever that's really that's funny yeah and i think it is actually and i think you see a lot of people who were involved in the ufo stuff like coming out and like you know trying to talk about it now or whatever they've had like peripheral involvement with this stuff because it's like you want a front run you know the critiques you're gonna get or whatever um and so that

that's interesting do you think that's actually translating with bitcoin as far as people um who are like involved in and you know past power structures now jumping on board and saying like you know i'm just going to kind of cross cross the rubicon because it still feels like institutional adoption is ridiculously low for like what it should be agreed there but no i think this particular administration again going back to the frankenstein that's been created a combination of the federal reserve and u.s treasury on the treasury side of things i think the trump admin i think picking scott percent as treasury secretary was a very a move that was made very strategically understanding secretary of a sense history with um the he was with george

soros when they did the the british pound trade he he didn't know that he did a massive trade with the yen back in the late 90s i believe as well during the asian crisis and so he understands these currency markets and government debt markets very well and i think he was tapped because the trump admin people surrounding donald trump understand that the debt situation is untenable like last year we reached a point where the interest expense on the debt surpassed uh our defense spending which it's getting to runaway territory and to answer your question of are they getting out in front of bitcoin to sort of signal like we understand this is a frankenstein i think so and at this event i was at in dc that matt pines david zell and grant mccarthy from bitcoin

policy institute through that was one of the the conversations were just the i think the sole intent purpose of that event was to blow the overton window up of of how the government should be thinking about implementing bitcoin into what it's doing one of the conversations was about bit bonds so basically introducing bitcoin as collateral to long duration treasury bonds so you can issue uh two trillion the example that was used let's issue two trillion dollars of 10-year bonds and you'd be rolled over uh the next 12 months and take 10 of that two trillion take 200 billion buy bitcoin hold it within the bond you issue the bond and it's one percent coupon you get to one percent yield um but at the end of when the bond rolls over 10 years from now

uh the owner of the bond uh gets 50 of the bitcoin upside and the government gets the other 50 and so if bitcoin continues to do what it has done historically in terms of its compound annual growth rates and uh the increase of purchasing power like that is a way to actually solve your long-term debt problem because you can take um the the bitcoin upside that the government holds begin defeasing the debt over time at the same time if you include bitcoin in something like a 10-year treasury bond with a very low interest rate you're rolling over your debt at lower interest rates so you're helping to bring down that that interest expense which is running away from us so i think are they going to do any of these all seem like great ideas

i would hope so yeah i've heard to the grapevine that scott percent is open to getting creative like this okay and you think that like the strategic reserve i i don't understand you know i'm super on the outside is it uh gonna be just like what the doj already held as far as bitcoin reserve are they gonna buy more or the executive order has created avenues through which the government can acquire more and they just want it to be in a budget neutral fashion so it's exciting not taxing americans to buy bitcoin but figuring out how they can move assets that they have on their balance sheet around to maybe sell them for bitcoin or the bitcoin treasury bond would be a budget neutral way to do that as well um so yeah i think

the one thing that many in the industry know and i don't think the broader public knows is sign the EO for the strategic Bitcoin reserve said any Bitcoin that we've seized already we're holding for the long term. I think more than half of that needs to be returned to Bitfinex. So the U.S. government sitting on, I believe, one hundred and ninety three thousand Bitcoin somewhere around there. And two or three years ago, the DOJ found the individuals who hacked bitfenix in 2016 at the time of the hack i think they took 119 000 bitcoin from this exchange and they ran rampant for the better part of a decade they got found and they still had anywhere from like 94 000 to 110 000 of the bitcoin left and the government confiscated that

and that bitcoin rightly belongs to bitfenix so we signed the uh and i think most the public believes we have close to 200 000 bitcoin but half of that more than half of that is going to go back to oh wow should go back to bitfinex i think it will um but it's interesting that they signed the eo knowing that and created the avenues to to purchase more bitcoin so i wouldn't be surprised if right now they're they're going out there and buying more bitcoin in budget neutral ways so that when they come out and say hey we have to give half this back to bitfinex they can also say but don't worry we've been accumulating right to make sure that that we have the amount that you at least we thought we had yeah when we signed the executive order interesting cool

yeah that's exciting yeah and so i i think and i we were discussing this yesterday we did um a panel we had an event here um and people get very apprehensive about the government acquiring bitcoin i think that it's going to begin um it's going to begin exerting influence on the protocol and what changes get made to it and i don't think that's going to happen i don't think the developers would ever take direction from the u.s government others um think like why are we why do we want the government to accumulate bitcoin like it's a great asset like it's just going to make them more powerful and i said this on stage yesterday like if i'm a strong believer that the government is way too big and needs to be significantly smaller and if you're being practical and thinking about

ways in which you can manifest a smaller government like the government is getting bigger and bigger in part because of this runaway debt situation that that we were talking about they have to issue more debt as they they roll over their treasuries and at higher rates and it just forces the expansion of the treasury's debt and therefore the government some regard and so if you really care about smaller government i made the argument yesterday like actually you want them to acquire bitcoin strategically over time so that they can pay off the debts and you're not in that cycle where the government's forced to get larger and expand the debt yeah it depends on what you want if you want some you know complete anarchy or like you're like super

extremely libertarian then like you know maybe maybe it's just like not good if they adopted or whatever but if you you know you want more edmund burke style you know evolution or whatever i think uh what you're saying makes a lot of sense and i agree i mean i think that that is it's just totally untenable like the math doesn't add up and i don't understand all these super anti-doge people or whatever i understand maybe it's being done in this sort of somewhat manic you know unhinged way but like i don't really know how it could how else it could be done like it's like you can't fire people in washington yeah it's just like impossible and you can't simultaneously say that you know the debt's untenable and then not have any ideas as

to where to cut costs and i think the difference there's like this baby boomer thing of like always uh punting the bill you know and like always finding ways to like shortcut or to shore up uh wealth based on these like cheap magic tricks almost like since growth slowed in the 70s it was like you had like deregulation in the 80s in the 90s it was like you know nafta and globalization you know then it was like all the subprime bullshit in the early 2000s and so it's like we got we gotta stop guys yeah you can't the math needs to add up at a certain point but i think when you've grown up in this like post-world war ii pax americana uh you know an inexorable rising tide world you don't think you need to make hard decisions and i think anybody

like who's run a business or like is maybe a little younger um or maybe silent generation or something uh you know they sort of like you know can can see the writing on the wall they're we got to turn this ship around somehow like no if you look at the numbers and we keep doing what we do without getting creative with something like a bitcoin backed treasury it's a literal ponzi scheme right it's quite literally a ponzi scheme that's right i i like the way that's framed because it's true it's a generation intergenerational theft in a ponzi scheme and it's uh yeah it's not it's not cool and the amount of like yeah wealth transfer money we've young people have paid so that when we live in this gerontocracy i'm convinced that the lot the

lockdowns over covid which i think were you know abjectly like total failed like horrible policy like if you can do total containment fine if you're doing like partial containment and it's like you know you're not letting people outside and vitamin d is actually like one of the big determinants of people's reaction to you know covid and like a bunch of people already have covid and then you're forcing them into closed quarters with other people who haven't so you're like increasing transmission and then a month later you don't lock down or whatever so like they all go out and spread it it's like absurd it's insane policy but that that was just one you know example of you know the the um this this this like you know emphasizing the old over over

over the young and i think that you know like like there's no way we could have gone like the sweden route right where it's just like let people out let it let it happen um and it was what was it like uh medicare d like the you know the bush thing and like like all these policies have just been to like enrich the baby boomers and you know my parents are baby boomers like i love a lot of baby boomers but it's we love our boomers here we do yeah but it's crazy it's time it's time to let us let us uh yeah help make our make it so that we have a future that's actually worth that's what i think this is all about is like what's happening in government is like gen x uh tech technology people against like baby boomer baby boomers who have like ridden this wave up and a lot of the

businesses that they've gotten they've accrued wealth from have come from like regulatory capture bullshit and rent seeking and then you have guys like you know elon and his whole like cadre of like tech people which you know for all their faults which they have faults um they like know how to like make things work in the free market and they like understand the math of things and they're like pretty reasonable on a bunch of things you know and so like they they get in there and they're like this is insane yeah and it's i mean you want going back to elon what he did when he took over twitter and lx went and just cut 80 of the staff and it products still works it's fine again to think that that doesn't exist elsewhere that that strategy of cutting

waste cannot be applied elsewhere is insane yeah to think and it's really it isn't it's really perplexing particularly for people who are pushing back against elon and throwing a massive fit going multiple cocktailing uh cyber trucks yeah is uh they'll screech and complain about this out of one side of their mouth but then they'll go have an experience with the government whether it's tsa the dmv paying their taxes they'll complain about that right we're trying to make the government more efficient and provide better services yeah how do you suggest you make it better yeah it's crazy it's the um the antibodies that come out i mean i think bureaucracies are inherently sort of self-preserving and i think it's also this thing of like if you often it's easy to be sort

of empathetic on the larger scales you get it's easier to be like like like kind of like a global empath or like a national empath like we can have totally open borders or like spend as much money as possible because you don't feel it but if i were to say you know hey like you let anybody in your business you hire whoever you know you have to hire whoever like walks into your business like because that's essentially what we're saying with like open borders where it's like you have to pay for as a taxpayer like anybody coming at least zero like you know it's just it's absurd logic it's absurd logic and it almost points towards this like what we were talking about at the beginning where it's like who's in charge of me like and who's some of the like i grew up pretty

liberal like i didn't like trump in 2016 and i've come around to really appreciating aspects of him while still i don't know he has you know issues in certain areas but it's like the kind of like obama kamala like that like platform like is it insane i mean like what's coming what's coming to light with the the signatures and some of the executive orders and people doing the the uh cross analysis of when these orders were signed and where joe biden actually was one came out last week that he signed an executive order about something very important but he was actually in the bahamas on vacation so it wasn't him there was literally somebody forging his signature on an executive order i mean he has like some form of dementia and he has

for a large portion of this administration and and yeah so that's like it's jake sullivan running the government is who's behind jake sullivan like is it like some you know is it obama and like trying to pull strings like yeah yeah no it's we it's we i mean they think about how kamala got you know um the nomination like it was like hakeem jeffries and like obama and like nancy pelosi like it's like what yeah and then their whole thing is like that the other side is anti-democratic it's like that that trump is is is you know the biggest threat to our democracy it's like you're the one appointing you know undemocratic undemocratically your you know nominee you're the one interfering with the free and fair election by saying that you know your opponent

is a russian asset and standing by this like fake dossier of bs for like years well like rachel maddow and cnn and like i fell for some of this stuff in 2016 well there's a lot of smoke there's got to be fire there's like nothing there like it's pure fabrication so as far as you know misinformation or like being anti-democratic like they have no no room to stand on yeah no you go back to the hillary clinton emails don in brazil like in that i think it was the 2016 election like they boxed bernie out like he should have been the nomination and and he's got i wish he understood i wouldn't have voted for him but like if we're if you truly want a democratic process yeah it seemed like he should have been the guy but they the dnc coordinated against him

to make sure that hillary was the nominee he's unacceptable to them he's like too he's not bought off he's pure i mean he did go after rfk in this weird way that made me think i mean i think whatever whatever aspects of bernie are sort of you know leveraged by special interests i think he's not aware of it like you can tell he's like pure when he's another like whether it's him uh nancy pelosi schumer like they're all too old it's like yeah yeah yeah especially this time around like bernie it's like all right dude you're and bernie you know it's like i think i see the purity like i see i think he is analogous in some ways to like the the uh ron and rand paul you know like you have bernie on the left on the left and then you have you know the pauls on the on the right

and those are the guys there's just so ideological and they're not i don't think they are bought off uh i think in both cases the math doesn't maybe fully add up i think it you know it adds up more on the libertarian side but then you have you know all these questions of human nature and how you can even get there without you know actual political action or whatever but the yeah the bernie thing just doesn't doesn't work but it's funny because i think directionally they see the same uh diagnostically they're actually very similar as far as we know what the u.s is facing you know vis-a-vis like income inequality and you know losing our manufacturing base and all those things and then they just have very different prescriptions and like yeah i'd be more on the

paul side you know as far as what the prescription should be but yeah um yeah no and it with all this being said i am extremely optimist i think people are waking up to this and despite what is being focused on the mainstream media and these attacks on tesla's globally if you look at the number like the polling numbers like people like people are very happy with the first couple of months and i think despite the kvetching in the media about doge like most people are like no this makes sense let's cut cut the waste yeah that's the that's the hard i think you're right but then i don't know you have i don't know like there's you you'd be surprised how like i don't know like i feel like we're in probably this echo chamber of like reasonable people

and like that you know famous famous last words like it's this tautological loop to say that like we're in an echo chamber of reasonable people of course we're gonna think it's reasonable but like there are a lot of people who like i don't know like ezra klein's like his he just started a new podcast that's becoming more popular like i used to intern for charlie rose you could think of as like the you know epitome of like the establishment like neoliberal you know and he had thomas friedman on and it's kind of this slightly sad pathetic thing where like he he was canceled for you know me too stuff or whatever and like he uh now has a youtube channel he's really old and he has his youtube like diy youtube channel and i i thought i was like the only person that would

check in on this youtube channel occasionally and he just had thomas friedman on and it was like the most low produced production value like it wasn't like super well done but it got like you know 200k views like very quickly or something and i do i think there is this latent like the counterculture moved to the right wing and you know you have like tim dillon and andrew shell you have all these guys who are like you know they're like the comedies move to the right and i could see it moving back and i do see how like how much anti-tesla and anti-elon and you know anti-trump sentiment there is out there so i'd like to think you're right and that people just give them a chance to do the you know these like you know reasonable important measures to reform things

but i also i don't know i wouldn't underestimate the the borg yeah the borg is real well that's The other thing that we have going for us, I don't want that comment to come off as me being complacent, but I could, especially because I think at least in the Bitcoin industry, we realized during the Biden administration, Bitcoin crypto anarchist, it seeded in crypto anarchy. And I very much aligned with that political ethos for most of my journey through Bitcoin. but i think the biden last biden admin specifically woke us up to the fact that you may not care about political power and engaging in politics but it cares about you and unless you actually want to

be able to build your business use bitcoin in the way that you see fit you have to engage politically and that's over the last two three years bitcoiners have really recognized this and leaned into all Right. Like if they're going to try and kill us, like we're going to fight back and engage. I think that is exactly what we're seeing with the Silicon Valley standing up and really backing Trump this time around as well. Totally. I mean, they would just do such a rational things vis-a-vis like Gensler, vis-a-vis crypto, you know, where like they have like an EV summit and then you don't invite Elon to the EV summit. and he has like the number one ev company like by far like you can't argue with like how cool the company tesla is and how much good and he was the dar like the darling child of you know liberals for for so long so at that point you're asking for him to like you know get in there and throw

his hat in the ring like it's like what are you what are you doing like why are you like continuously like negging this guy and like kind of gaslighting him and then you expect him to not fight back and like kind of exercise his right to like you know uh influence politics yeah you know so it's like no it feels like for decades a lot of people were just on cruise control because things were good enough where it didn't really make sense to engage and put your neck out there but i feel like as we hit the quarter mark of the 21st century it's like okay end of the first quarter and things are we cannot be on cruise control anymore no we need to engage i think that's actually the biggest difference between uh liberals and conservatives in today's age which

like those are probably like poor maybe even frames for you know maybe there's like a new conservative coalition but i think maybe the the better way to put it is like the dividing line between like the trump voter and then the not trump voter is the the person voting against trump is cool with the status quo and thinks that like we're we're things are fine and so you don't want rock the boat too much you know the the um the neocon neoliberal center so to speak is like this reasonable you know institutional thing that like we need to uphold and like keep going and i think on on the you know pro-trump side it's like if you don't introduce some volatility in the system we are screwed and in certain cases at least like i was speaking for myself like i think i realized

there's risk like maybe it's like a higher ceiling and a higher floor or a lower floor and like maybe you know things could go you know worse i think a lot of that is treating you know is is people on the left treating trump way too literally and not understanding his kind of art of the deal tactics but you know like i would accept that like maybe maybe you know things are more likely to like tailspin out with him but like it's the only fighting chance we have is trump you know and so i think it's this like you know where where were things headed pre-trump calculation and there are still all these people who are in the you know it's like the stephen pinker bill gates you know like if we're just rational and like keep going on the track we were on things are

going great and it's ridiculous it's insane well that's why i think framing is important and i i think that is one of the uh sad states of this broad discussion in the united states specifically is that framing is always left right and i think uh i engaged in this beginning in 2019 through 2023 being in the bitcoin mining industry as we were getting attacked particularly by climate hysterics i think shifting the frame from uh and to from left right to malthusians and people that think humans are good things that should flourish yeah that's a better because that that sort of takes away the the political divide and um basically expands the scope of the frame to humanity at all like are you a malthusian yes who thinks that humans are bad and need to be

centrally planned and yes using energy is bad or are you pro-human think we're actually good creative innovative yeah beings that that can actually do good and progress totally or there's like a i would frame it maybe slightly different which is like we're depraved but because we're depraved no one person can rule over like there's actually so much hubris in thinking the world is your sandbox and that you can technocratically create some like global order and so like we are we are like inherently somewhat depraved and sinful and we need to acknowledge that about ourselves but also there's something extremely aspirational and amazing about humans and we shouldn't limit our you know growth potential or flog ourselves into submission via this you know

like create the greta greta narrative or whatever you know yeah it's not only like climate it's like dei it's like you don't have the ability to make decisions about who you should hire so we're gonna put this framework in front of you to make sure that you're hiring the right people and yeah i think um just framing humans as good innovative creative beings that can that can actually do good and getting back to just systems theory in general that's getting in bitcoin and being forced to learn about distributed systems then naturally you you go and study other other types of systems emergent systems where it's mycelium or telecom networks flight paths whatever it may be these things are emergent throughout time and the thought of central planning technocratic

central planning decision making for individuals the world over is just a complete a complete rejection of systems theory and how yes nature evolves and how economies have evolved throughout times this emergent process yes not only that but like you could think of every ideological or utopian movement in the 20th century you think of the 20th century as the age of ideal ideology and it always ends in a lot of death like it's always very bad and catastrophic anytime somebody comes up with some at scale quick fix solution for society you should be extremely skeptical of that like you'd say the 20th century is sort of a refutation of that from like the practical implementation of you know state marxism uh to like you know

national socialism not not you know the nazis um so yeah i think i think that stuff seems super charismatic and then it just never works in practice and like a way more innocuous version of that is like i don't know you hear things thrown around like if we just had ubi we'd be fine like these technocratic like flip on the switch and it's all we're all good once you flip on the switch and i just i agree i don't think that's the way you know um things work yeah a china's one child policy exactly it's like oh you're you just demographically killed yourself exactly generations from now talk about like i'm i actually think a lot of the like peter zaihan like um you know china is like in a nuke itself off the map i think some of that is kind of

over kit like they do have this extremely you know important demographic problem and it's going to cause them to like make all sorts of maybe weird geopolitical decisions they wouldn't have um but like maybe maybe it's just like the military you know science frontier you know that that like matters actually when it comes to them they can play musical chairs with the debt and you know the kind of agrarian you know economy can like have like a lot a lot of trouble and like you know as long as like the cities are thriving or whatever so like maybe there's some like more nuanced cuts on that uh but like yeah that's a perfect example of like this idea that you can centrally planned something and in the u.s as it too like foreign policy wise we've bred so much

ill will abroad and you see it happening with the ukraine situation right now but i don't know i love the i love the you know the idea that i don't know i love the idea but it's like this is like very illuminating of like our foreign policy over the last hundred years it's like we like trained osama bin laden you know and then like he came back to you know to do you know 9-11 it's like that that's you know it's a thing where like you don't iran contra like we were iran contra great example involved with that it's triple bank shots where like it's like you're you're this machiavellian mastermind they they always just blows up in your face yeah well and this is actually a good way to tie it back to like disclosure like is that do you see this being

a problem with disclosure or is this an area where some sort of central coordination is actually necessary because of the gravity of the information that could be released to the public i think uh it's super analogous in that i think the more establishment powers are likely trying to co-opt narratives they're likely trying to dole things out in some like you know super uh you know clear way you know and like kind of you know make sure that people don't freak out or whatever and simultaneous to that my guess is that the emergence just you know kind of eats their lunch and it's like that where you expect quote-unquote disclosure to come from it's not going to come from those official channels it's going to come from something weird is that something outside

that would be my prediction that's your prediction is that your preference too yeah it is yeah because i don't think it's it's we're talking about like ultimately like ontological truth and like the sacred and like i don't think that should be mediated by anybody like i don't think i don't believe it in the context of the catholic church i don't think like religion should be mediated you know i'm sort of more of like you know just experience this stuff for yourself you don't need anybody to tell you that this is real like go and you know use discernment and you know run the numbers read the code exactly yeah yeah and uh yeah so i do i yeah i think it's very analogous in that way

sure yeah and that's what matt has been telling me it's it's getting to like a boiling point where there are enough people who are frustrated with the the pace of they are and they don't want like some modern council of nicaea being like this is the canon that you can you know this this is acceptable ufo stuff this is not acceptable no it's all you can do whatever you want you know know just learn about you know and use your own judgment and if you you think something's bs then you know don't don't look at it what do you what do you think we're gonna if if we're gonna learn something like what is it is it the physics side of things is it the where these beings are coming from what they are um it's such a good question i mean if geo

things heat up geopolitically maybe we have some more explicit intervention event say you have like another cuban missile crisis and then one of these like you know like we have this like nuclear countdown or something and then that gets shut down like and then it's just like the whole world like understands that after the fact or something like something like that i think is possible given just i mean we're in a new cold war and it's a multipolar cold war and i think maybe it's less of a threat vis-a-vis china russia state actors but they have you have these asymmetric risks and this plausible deniability vis-a-vis other kind of um you know other actors like look at what's happening in israel it's sort of like you're around israel and it's kind of this

like proxy war right of like the you know bigger powers or whatever so like maybe something happens where things get very dire and you get some like weird intervention i'm just spitballing maybe you get like a smoking gun material where it's like the material isn't just like a piece of a thing but it looks like more it's more like a like an intact craft or something and you like test it and like that you know it's like isotope ratios off you know it's just like tested by some clearly like you know um third party you know uh uh you know not bought in you know credentialed material scientist or something i don't know maybe that um maybe i don't know there are all sorts of ways i mean they're they're people who like claim to get like prophecies and stuff maybe

one of those comes true or something like i'm skeptical of all of them i think you have to be a priori if somebody says this thing is going to happen on this date i mean it's just you should you should be really i think there's even a quote in the book of matthew in the new testament that's like you know no one knows the apocalypse except for god or whatever and so this is like you should probably like blanket that like all prophecies or dates or whatever but like something big happens that like accords with like a message somebody got and like they made it public so i don't know there are all these interesting ways the propulsion, the derivative technology.

So like our technology converging with UAP propulsion where, you know, it's easy now for like Elon to rest on, you know, Oh, it's all like mass ejection kind of, you know, Newton's,

you know, three laws or whatever, as far as like how these things, you know, move, but you know, maybe we do get some workable exotic electromagnetic, you know,

based propulsion. And, you know the second you get that then it's like oh the things we're seeing aren't actually breaking physics as we know it maybe they're more possible which is stupid that we are overlaying something that we are unequivocally observing and detecting with our physical models of the universe which again are like wrong at all times but like then if the physical models like catch up then the observation becomes more acceptable um so yeah there's so many and then and then if you can like repeat the electromagnetic propulsion thing you can like implement it and rocketry and

like you know exotic you know craft or whatever um all of a sudden like things become more more realistic um i don't know i mean you just had like one of the most popular podcasts in the u.s right now is this thing called the telepathy tapes yeah yeah i've been listening to them it's fucking nuts it's nuts matt pines was like months early on this thing and it's like you have these autistic non-verbal children and some of them talk about alien beings and non-human intelligence and they uh are seem to be repeatably telepathic particularly with their parents right with their parents it's usually more of a mind meld than it is sort of viewing something in abstract objective reality so it's like it's less of like a remote viewing like tell me you know

based on these coordinates i mean i'm sure they'd be great actually at that but like yeah it's more like uh what's in you know your parents looking at an ipad in another room or like the kids blindfolded or whatever and the parent you know is looking at some random number that gets generated and you know almost without fail like not not only statistically significant like that's sort of you know doing it uh that's that's understating how you know serious the you know i think it's like 90 to 95 percent hit rates on a lot of these things and i think the experiments actually need to be done in more rigorous ways they need to be more like double blind but if you if you just listen to that you know whole series i think it's it would be extremely dogmatic to come away

being like there isn't something there yeah so i don't know more things like that but my guess is it's a stepwise process it's not like this it's this jagged thing like bitcoin adoption where it's like it's not you know it's just like capitulation process of the consensus reality um and it's not it's not like one a one fell swoop thing but yeah i would guess that it will continue to surprise us and it's not going to be like you know some like government spokesman yeah well i think that's another thing that makes people highly skeptical of this um this topic more broadly is because it's like these non-human intelligence comes and for some reason only government and big corporations have access to this like why yeah go to them and then obviously

like people you've interviewed you have one-off examples of people that have had experiences with this intelligence and like is there a possibility in your mind that disclosure goes the other way and said like our government telling us about it these non-human this non-human intelligence is like all right you had plenty of time to tell them you haven't done it yet like now we're somehow going to yeah make people aware that we're here well there's a a great uh book called childhood's end by arthur c clark you know famous you know wrote um you know 2001 space odyssey and you know with stanley kubrick rewrote the i think it was based on his book the sentinel but he also wrote the script and you know amazing kind of futuristic sci-fi genius and in childhood's end

the you know there's this like cosmic host like you know um alien race and uh the bridge between that race and human beings are actually these these autistic you know uh children and you know you think about like the phrase like you know the meek shall inherit the earth you know from the new testament and i do wonder i think the truth is everybody's sort of interacting with things like this like all the time i think that would be my like heretical really out there weird view and the government or corporations are probably again like you know interacting it with it vis-a-vis this like very narrow frame of like how can this confer some tactical advantage vis-a-vis you know geopolitical game theory or whatever and then or you know corporate game theory you know and then

you have these like autistic non-verbal kids that are just like super often pure of heart and like you know they just they exist in this like other paradigm it's like the um minority to report the what were they yeah the precogs yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah totally and so it's like i don't know what form of disclosure do you want do you want like this form that's being given by this inherently skewed relationship with the phenomena where you are trying to purely derive instrumental tactical advantage from the phenomena or like you know and maybe the you know the the autistic nonverbal kids that's too narrow of like you know it's like some broader swath of humanity that are that are connecting to this but you know what what do you want what feels more

healthy on like a social level it's like it's probably like this thing it's not the it's not the you know let's weaponize this immediately then yeah do you do you buy into the idea that broader society becoming aware of this could lead to an existential crisis oh yeah somewhat i do i think um like the truth is like this forcing function and i do think it uh can be very painful for people it's like i think why are certain people so dogmatic like why are people super dogmatic anti-bitcoin often it's psychology pre-leveraging uh kind of a lack of openness to this thing this i know how money works totally i've been using my whole life who you to tell me that it's broken and it's not a good like bitcoin is a needed solution 100 sunk

cost identity you know it's like warren buffett's like what are you talking about like i studied under benjamin graham and like you know we're you know it's the intelligent investor and like i have this you know method that's based on cash flows and like you know all this stuff he's like this is this is fake you know and he's you know in his whole life he's been told that you know You're the Oracle of Omaha. You're the guy that like, you're the, you know, and he is like synonymous with like reasonable investing in the S&P 500 or whatever. And so like, you know, this, this anonymous like guy, like, you know, Satoshi comes up

with this thing and it creates a movement. Of course, he's going to be like, this is ridiculous, you know, but it's really, it's not a rational analysis. It's pre-leveraged by like his life's work, which is like understandable. and you know it's there's this great um quote i forget who said it's like you know science progresses one funeral at a time it might be max plonk or something i don't know but i so i think um what was your original question it was like uh uh yeah what i think are we going all the way back to like it which way is the disclosure going to go like from government to

us or like yeah yeah yeah non-human intelligence to us so i think i don't know i think it's um there are going to be a lot of well you were asking oh no existential crisis yeah yeah existential so i think i do think there's a lot of like just just um dig your heels and like anti like like what do you you know and it and initially i think it messes with people who believe in the religion thing but then i would say actually you're kind of an atheist materialist and you don't actually believe the underlying thing of the religion thing because like if you did and you read the old testament or new testament there's so much weirder than meets the eye and like it it would corroborate there being some sort of phenomenon outside of the scope of like us being happy

accidents of consciousness and like you know random atoms bouncing around that like emerged into you know whatever the you know again steven pinker daniel dennett like bullshit rationalist view of our world is so but i think initially if you're you know into the like you know uh monotheistic god you know um that knows all and like you're kind of doctrinaire religious you know i think i could see you just having an allergic reaction to this you know or if you're just an atheist materialist i think they actually have more of an allergic reaction to this because they're like you know i just they almost want like this narrow scope you know kind of eat drink and be merry you know yeah they like the the tracks along which they're you know becoming you

know yuppies or whatever and they don't they don't want i mean this this stuff is kind of you know very gnarly yeah and and and thinking about it can be very uncomfortable so i do think it could cause some you know existential angst but i don't know i also think people are starting to wake up on all sorts of levels like and and and we were talking about that you know it's like disclosures are are coming across the board right now in society and i don't believe in astrology at all But it is interesting that this is like this talk of like the age of Aquarius or whatever, where it's like it does feel like hierarchies are being flattened. Ugly truths are coming to light. And like we're just having to like reconcile with that.

There's something about the pandemic, honestly, that felt like this forcing function where it's like, what? Like the NIH was funding this stuff. Which is a fact that we were funding a bioweapon in China, which is like our biggest geopolitical adversary. It's like if we were to fund, you know, the Manhattan Project, you know, in Nazi Germany or whatever, I'm not equating the CCP with Nazis at all. But like, you know, it's like that was the biggest adversary that, you know, it's a crazy like, right. Doesn't doesn't make any sense. And so like these things are coming to light progressively, like more and more and more. And yeah, I think I think the UFO thing is just an example of that.

It's the example that, you know, I think like the money bubble is breaking and Bitcoin is like an arb against the money bubble breaking. and then ufos are like an arb against the reality bubble breaking and i think that's like if anything the ufo thing is just a foray you're just seeing the tip of the iceberg and there's a lot you know a lot below it um and so that's why it's so subject to co-opting and like narrative control and all sorts of bullshit but um yeah i do i do think it's going to come to light and i think it i think it'll it'll scramble people's brains in a in a good way i think ultimately it'll be this like kind of hard thing that we have to sort of reconcile with and uh i think you know it'll accelerate people's growth and you know evolution yeah that's what's always perplexed me about why

we wouldn't want this information out there again going back to like wanting to know the truth seeking the truth and not only that but leveraging truth that was previously unknown and is valuable to make life better like why wouldn't we want to understand that this reality as it's been explained to us up to this point is not what we think it is and let's get the information out there let people recalibrate their frame and their understanding of life the universe reality itself and go from there i agree yeah why yeah why wouldn't you want to know we've had plenty of examples of this throughout his like the heliocentric yes um view of of the solar system the the like life before fire life before the wheel life before agrarian societies like we've had

these life before the printing press life before the internet totally yeah exactly and uh and then you think about it too and it's like a rewriting of the copernicus thing is like i was just with the guy who um he has this like binary star companion theory and i don't know if i need to like dive into it more to like you know see he has a lot of interesting evidence and he's talked to a bunch of jpl people and he thinks that like there's this like pericoidal sort of you know this like big gravitational mass that like enters our solar system you know every 25 000 years or so and it you know disrupts things and you know um has to do with some of the you know magnetosphere you know issues that the earth is facing and solar activity or whatever and again

i i i would hold that loosely i don't know you know how how true it is but he's gone very deep on it and so uh but anyways he brought up the fact that um copernicus was hearkening back to this guy this greek thinker aristarchus who thought all along that the sun was the center of the universe and so it's interesting how you know with the ufo thing too it's like if you were to tell people either in indigenous tribes or a pre-enlightenment you know which is the majority of humanity for the majority of time that we aren't alone in the universe like they would they wouldn't bat an eye they'd be like you're crazy if you think we are and so you know i think it's crazy i think it's it's also interesting that like this is this last you know 500 years

or whatever like that that's kind of the the the detour you know like we're we're more of an aberration and i think there's like a re-enchantment coming yeah i mean yeah like going back to the parallels a bit like bitcoin is just like a reversion to yeah a monetary system that that you meant the sound monetary system the humanity leveraged not the exact same but similar yes for millennia with gold and the post 1971 nixon ripping us off the gold standard is an aberration of of human history yes yeah totally so yeah it's a great way to put it it's almost like if you were to insert gold into the information theory paradigm or whatever like the information technology paradigm like that's what bitcoin would be and so it's like maybe it's

like yeah the the good aliens are like you need to you need to like uh you know there's all this bad that could come from you know it because it's interesting like the internet itself i think we were talking about this like you had the tim berners-lee you know and that it was it was it timothy may yeah like david all these guys and you know yeah jacob rees-mogg and or is it is it william rees-mogg who wrote the sovereign individual it should be up here somewhere we should be able to confirm it's actually not but i think it's david rees-mogg david rees-mogg okay yeah he's the father and the son is jacob reese yeah so like you had this like version of the internet that could have been extremely libertarian and like you know we could have

been like meeting in some like private chat and like bartering for stuff you know and instead you end up with this like kind of dystopian like it's all centralized and you know and then and then even more centralized and so far is like the nsa just has backdoors into all the you know the five big tech companies that own all of the apps that you use you know and so yeah i do see bitcoin is like this possible like injection of like a you know a little gadfly like a little little bulwark yeah it's like oh maybe things could swing back in the other direction i mean the sovereign individual may be the most prescient book i've ever written because they predicted bitcoin yeah you told me like page 26 they predicted bitcoin in the context of um the russian ruble

crisis in the asian the uh the asian currency crisis and there's basically there's going to come a point where we figure out how to make cryptographic based digital money that is separate from governments and central banks and that was 96 they made that prediction so 12 years later bitcoin white paper drops predicted trump they said immigration and the debt situation is going to get to some point where some enigmatic character um that is outside the establishment comes to power and really shakes things up and then even things like andrew and this this drone um theme that's been been building over the last 10 years like you're gonna have war is going to evolve from uh what we have today with the large um naval ships and these

helicopters and we're gonna get drone warfare or hopefully not drone warfare but the ability to use drones as a defensive tech to disincentivize um kinetic warfare at the scale that we've seen over the last hundred years and it's funny humans are it's it it's funny having been in bitcoin for so long and watch the naysayers and the people go build things in crypto they're extremely impatient like these phase shift um these tectonic shifts in society and the technologies we leverage it's naive to think it's not going to take time like we're 16 years in the bitcoin um and people want it to be fully adopted market cap at hundreds of trillions of dollars and a day-to-day currency like out of the box and if it isn't that it's like bitcoin failed it's like well

no this is an emergent distributed system it's going to take time for people to adopt and integrate it and use it and advance the technologies via layers and stuff like that and so i think there's progressing naturally yeah that's so fascinating with the reese mogg predictions like a lot of this is is like i don't know like did you hear about this like like project elon this um this book written by you know uh warner von braun who's you know the the uh head of german rocketry father of german rocketry but also went on to run the nasa saturn you know took us brought on a paper clip right yeah operation paper clip exactly and he wrote um or maybe stars project mars and elon was this charismatic guy that would like bring us to mars or whatever and like you

have these examples of things in history you know there's a book called wreck of the titan that was written 12 years before the titanic and it was like you know the biggest cruise liner you know most luxurious in the world it was the exact same dimensions as the titanic uh there were these blue blooded elites on board like the asters were on board the titanic it was like april and it hits iceberg or whatever you have all these examples of things that there's one about like the trumps too when they're like a book written a century ago that it was the time the adventure that the time travel adventures of baron trump or the adventures of baron trump and like he dawned and he like you know yeah and there's there's also a a movie uh where trump you know there's

a charismatic you know guy who then gets accused of fraud by his political opponents but he comes to town and he says i'm gonna build a wall and he says and there's this video on youtube where he goes i go trump you're a liar or whatever and he's like i'm gonna build the wall and it does it makes you ask all these like interesting ontological questions about like reality and like how like it seems like an idea gets converged on slowly in the zeitgeist and then there's some sort of like wave function collapse but there's like a build-up like over a long period of time And that feels like what's happening with it, with the UFO stuff for sure,

where it's just been this like long standing sort of, sort of thing that, you know, and I think there's a way in which, I don't know, maybe consensus, maybe reality itself is like sort of a consensus collapsing function. And like,

as far as our epistemology and how it gets shaped. Well, that like, if I can't stop thinking of interstellar, like going back and think about all these books that predicted things that have come to fruition, like, like is that what they were trying to i don't know what your thoughts on interstellar if it's

like an accurate depiction of what we i think there are a lot of accurate things in it yeah but like the last scene where he's like in the fifth dimension and like hitting the book there's almost like a prime directive and it comes to yes exactly like so he's literally communicating with his daughter who's living in the past and he's behind this like glass yeah and he basically affects he changes reality on that timeline yes but it's in a weakly entangled way yeah which there's a whole subplot to the i don't know how deep you want to go but it's like the ufo thing being time travel and in the case of time travel you probably would well a lot of the abduction cases like they have to undergo chemical rinses and often the beings say they're from the future

and they uh uh collect gametes and genetic material and often they say there's been this you know big calamity in the future or whatever and like you know we need we need to like repopulate so we need your your you know gametes or we need your uh you know genetic material um and that's what the grays seem to like consistently sort of do so it's almost like it's this like collection process and you get into these weird ontologies where it's like do they exist in some sort of trans-temporal dimension and then they have this like, there's always time

warping effects, there's always missing time there's often a time warping local effect, like it seems like the, you know, plants or trees are growing faster where the craft lands, they try to, yeah I'll go for it Was it you that tweeted out about the mountain somewhere in Asia, where like

the people that climb it, like the time moves faster, like their fingernails grow faster yes yeah and a lot of these well so then you get into these weird so it's like the nuclear thing maybe it could be so that we don't destroy ourselves but also like if you if you get into this like time agnostic ontology and maybe there's a great book called biocentrism by a guy named robert lanza and it's actually like biological life presupposes are like epistemology so it's like you know biology might even become come before physics it's not like we're this like

happy accident or whatever there's some sort of like maybe it's consciousness or maybe it's biology you know who knows exactly but if you think about a low level of radiation as fostering life like the magnetosphere of the earth we are literally in a goldilocks environment on earth and that that's not even controversial to say because you have this guy michael levin who's at tufts and he works with like a bioelectric field of the body and you can grow you know a frog embryo in a faraday cage and it won't grow properly and then you grow it next to a wi-fi router and it'll get you know mutated and you have like stuff you know around like wildlife at chernobyl being like the the evolution literally gets accelerated so i think you get

into this interesting ontology where and then literally like the sun creates enough it's it's like enough uv radiation where we get you know genetic mutations where differential selection can like allow for evolution um but like literally like like the magnetosphere of the earth dictates human and animal morphology you know because of what i just said it's a little cellular like you know voltage gated ion channels are what dictate like you could you could change you could cut off the you know the arm of a tadpole and then change the local like voltage you know gradient to that of the um you know the the neck of the tadpole and then grow like a chimeric two-headed tadpole and so um all that's to say i think they're really interesting ontologies where

like uh time is less of a factor it's more time agnostic and actually this like electromagnetic radiation thing is like extremely important for the evolution or lack thereof of life you know like that's more fundamental in some ways so space is more more of a factor than time or like where does space get like is the concept of space as we understand it change too especially if you get into we're getting into crazy territory but like i think the way you i mean so in general relativity time and uh gravity are related and so the the way you mess with gravity or it's two two ways you have a ton of mass you know so that that could you know mess with time somehow but that's you know you can't really like artificially create a ton of

mass or you um you have a ton of energy and so like you know it's like high voltage experiments or like nuclear stuff you know where you're sort of like breaking the boundaries of like energy output and reality itself and so then you get into these interesting ontological questions where if that's the case in general relativity do you somehow mess with time and even so there's quantum indeterminacy on the level of position and momentum and schrodinger's equation where like if i measure position momentum gets fuzzier if i measure momentum position gets fuzzier but there's also quantum indeterminacy between time and level of energy and i've always found that fascinating and then i've also always felt like and this is we're getting into like philosophy of science

stuff like this is somewhat unfalsifiable or maybe if it is like i'd love for somebody like try figure out a way to turn this into an experiment but like the idea that the position and momentum of electrons can get you know like fuzzier or more indeterminate based on your measurement of them never made ontological sense to me what does make more ontological sense is that your brain somehow creates the perception of time and so like maybe in schrodinger's equation is an effective equation that like allows us to be do useful things in the material world and like predict positions of subatomic particles or whatever but actually there's some like more abstracted out version of the equation that we just don't know yet just like general relativity

is that for newton you know newton exists you can recover newton inside of general relativity but for schrodinger's equation one that's time agnostic where time super positionality creates position and momentum super positionality um and so you know who knows if that's what what ends up happening there but you get deep enough into like spooky science circles with the ufo thing and whatever these crafts are doing see they seem to act like quantum macroscopic objects in that they don't they seem to defy time and like you you know it's like travis walton this famous you know um abduction experience in arizona you know this is a great movie called fire in the sky was made made off of it like he grows like a full beard you know but it's you know

it's only in a few days or whatever and it's that's a constant trope it's like you're in this sort of time warped you know reality yeah and so uh right now that you know that that might just apply you know i think a lot of people would even argue with what i just said and they'd say like time is taken for granted in my opinion in schrodinger's equation where it's this classical axiom ported into this like quantum thing but some people might say time works weird on kind of a mac a microscopic scale and then like yeah can it work in more strange ways in a way that we could harness on a on a macroscopic scale yeah and i don't know and then they yeah it points to kind of the interstellar thing and there are a lot of you know there's this guy i'm thinking of

like goku training um i'm not sure if you ever felt on dragon ball z rabbit hole but he goes and trains like in a special room that interesting higher gravity and time slows down so he can like train harder oh that's so cool yeah oh that's awesome yeah you feel like insulate yourself from like yeah that's an interesting then he gets more super saiyan or whatever from yeah well there i don't know there's a lot of the um mid-century there's this mid-century inventor that i love named thomas townsend brown he like was very interested in gravity and like anti-gravity but the subplot of like all of his conversations was like he was obsessed with time and time travel and he would even say things that fully comport with interstellar where he would say like

to his close confidants i believe time travel will occur in in our lifetime but i think there'll be rules applied to the time travel and you know it would make sense like if you you'd have probably some prime directives or whatever like all uh the grandfather paradox you know where it's like you go back in time you can't kill your own grandfather because then you wouldn't exist you know so like there are ways in which you need to sort of weakly entangle yourself with the reality and that might explain the ephemerality of a lot of these these they don't want to affect their timeline yeah exactly and you know even steven spielberg who i think has been fed a lot of information a lot around this stuff like by probably some you know decent sources over the

years he's coming out with a movie called disclosure i think in a year or two and see blunt in it yeah and even in close encounters of the third kind you see on the crates trw and skunk works which are you know that's northrop and lockheed like their most like advanced r&d divisions that are like associated with the ufo topic and there are all sorts of other clues and that wasn't public back when that movie that was not public back when that movie came out so there's a lot like that and he's on record talking to robert lee field who is the creator of deadpool and lee fields even tweeted this and he's like you know one time i was speaking to steven spielberg And he was like, what do you think is more likely that these are beings from, you know, distant solar system or, you know, Zeta Reticuli or whatever, or us in the future coming back in time, trying to maintain, you know, the right timeline or whatever.

And again, I think it's, it might be a zoo of things. If you, if you get off first base of like there being a there, there, it's could be like, you know, a whole host of things could be ultra terrestrials that survived a calamity that are coexisting with earth, you know, on earth, underwater. that don't want us to destroy. So it could be a whole host of things. But the time travel one, I think is a very underrated one. That's just very ontologically hard to, for us to like grasp,

but is, is, is very possible. And if we ever figured it out, it's a single code update where if time travels at all possible in the future, it's inherently always been possible in the past. Yeah.

If you think about that. And then if you think about what a gray alien looks like, if you were to ask any evolutionary biologist what will humans evolve into in you know a thousand plus years they might say something that looks like a gray alien they'd say we're becoming domesticated you know uh uh we're like testosterone and sperm count are falling off a cliff right we're also losing the melanin in our skin or whatever which is literally this is like an it's it's how species become domesticated like a dog is to a wolf what we are to like our you know future descendants there's even a theory in it's not a theory it's an empirically you know

proven thing it's called neoteny or pedomorphosis where your current the the the the kids of your species look like your descendants which is all these gray aliens look like you know kind of childlike um you know their their eyes are slits we have more screen time their ears and noses are have become you know vestigial because we're not hunter gatherings they're smaller brains are much larger obviously it's all white collar work like you know the the naval ravikon we live in the age of infinite leverage as far as our decision making you know you have the telepathy tapes coming out now we're at the frontier of that all of their communication seems to be telepathic if we have anything latent around that that existed pre-language where language was like an opportunity

cost trade-off against that does that just come back especially if we need to commune with these like you know higher ontological beings so like all of the observables comport with what it seems like we are headed towards and then you have the sort of prime directive weak entanglement like you know um missing time like you have like all this stuff and you have jacques valet who's like you know one of the deepest i think the deepest ufo researcher like you know alive today and you know he was working with you know the official air force project on this topic project blue book with jaylen hynek back you know who's like the sort of the godfather astronomer on this stuff from northwestern and he's come to the conclusion that it's you know it might be more time related

than space related and then you do get into these questions of like you know once you mess with time do you mess with space like you mix with you mess with the you know x coordinate you mess with yz as well you know but yeah and are the gray aliens coming back and being like we don't like being gray like make sure you go outside yeah yeah could it be a warning system totally or could their weirder question you know like darpa right now is you know and like advanced you know research is is looking into like programmable biology and like how does a cell work yeah you just had somebody on talking about the potential i had a uh actually yeah former darpa program manager on who was he was talking about and he's like robotics guy and like you know um he's he's

very interested in and yeah this idea program i've invested in a company that um they are training rat neurons to do like you know uh like stabilize a pendulum or play pong or whatever but you put these rat neurons on micro electrode uh plates and you using carl fristian's free energy principle carl fristian's renowned neuroscientist that like you know neurons don't like randomized signals And so you randomize the signals when like the vertical displacement between the ball and the paddle like increases and you use Pavlovian conditioning to get the neurons to like do these basic tasks via software. So like if that's where we're at now, could we have some like anatomical compiler 3D printer of human? and then all of a sudden it's like you'd send this like von neumann replicator thing back in time and like you'd have this ai kit that would nip at the herd and like every time like a nuke goes out it

would be like it would sniff that out you know and like or like if somebody reached a certain state of consciousness it would like you know appear to appear to them or whatever you know like sway uh humanity in these like uh larger teleologies vis-a-vis these like little nodes these like connector nodes and then they would spread out in ways that we don't understand because we might be like cellular automata in the system but in a way that like if you were in a higher dimensional space you would entirely understand you know it's like in the three body problem where you're like on 2d a 2d you know plate or whatever and you're getting shot at and the bullets are creating these holes to you the holes are like craters or mountains or like

you know they're just features of the topology that you're like existing on you have no idea that like bullets are being shot at you or whatever and i i love that like if if anything is going on in higher dimensional space we are we are like an an ant on a human arm trying to cognize you know uh understand the human it's just so hard and you end up in these sort of you know ultimately unanswerable questions but i think the gymnastics involved in like attempting to solve them are uh virtue unto themselves and like allow you to maybe get incrementally closer in a way that's very productive and not totally sisyphean yeah holy shit this is uh it's mine it's literally mind-blowing and i i get obviously this um you may be able to hear it in

the background we've got a movie showing here in a little bit but so the commons is getting uh getting filled up but what uh what movie are you playing dirty coin about bitcoin mining oh it's actually good for the environment cool love it good for the energy grid but yeah on that on that note like that's i think what scares many people myself included to a degree which is like are we just these zoo animals or these inconsequential things in the grand scheme of saying a relatively um a relatively uh boring and inconsequential species um or is it like i was saying earlier is it a process where we're evolving and that would be my bias joining um getting to the point where we can join this broader community in the cosmos i obviously

don't know but i like the second frame better yeah um and then is that just some noble mythology i don't know yeah but that's the one that i don't know it also if you take seriously like near-death experiences or ancient religions it's like you know we're in this these sort of karmic whirlpool cycles and yeah you can ascend through you know slowly over like many incarnations or whatever and who knows you know who knows if any of this stuff is true but i like to think that that's more true than the uh you know we're just a z we're just a farm yeah you know we're just you know we're being farmed and you know gonna be slaughtered at some point or whatever i don't like to believe that and i don't think that's right but that simulation theory are like the

ones that scared me the most in terms of theory like ah that would suck um well i think there's a uh play-doh's version of simulation theory vis-a-vis the cave or something like they're i think extremely meaningful versions of simulation theory and then there's like the nihilistic post-modern version where it's like oh you could go play grand theft auto or like you know like there's nothing matters you know uh if god doesn't exist you know if you're in a video game yeah you go fuck around as much as you want which i don't believe you know but i think if you are you're in some sort of low-level compressed reality and you're trying to ascend to the next level i think that's extremely meaningful yeah like you manifest like manifestation as a concept like i believe in

that um and it's been proven scientifically like life has this motivation to manifest itself and to perpetuate life i'm sure you've seen the study but the study where they put plants in a box and then they had like a light in the box it was a dark box but they have a light that um was supposed to randomly spin in four quadrants so the box they literally wrote a program like make sure the light hits the quadrant like at a random at a random rate um but despite that that random algorithm that the light was supposed to be touching these quadrants on they found through observation over time that the quadrant that the plant was in um had an overwhelming majority the light would hit in that quadrant yeah i just heard this yeah it's so amazing and

so that's like an example of like life manifesting despite the fact that it's supposed to be a random probabilistic pinging of each quadrant the quadrant that life is in attracts the light and life we already know like heliotropy like like plants grow towards the sun but life affecting its local environment like literally affecting an unconscious machine that's a that breaks our reality right there and i think it even more like fundamental less abstract version of that is these random event generators where you take something that's provably random and we think of as conventionally random in quantum mechanics and then you tie it to these like binary computers and then you try to skew the output towards you know it's a perfect digital coin flip because

it's like you know over a long enough time scale you should get the same amount of ones and zeros within some standard deviation that you expect and you try to skew it towards ones or zeros and i think in a statistically provable way you have uh institutes like the the princeton engineering and anomalies you know research lab who have a close friend that like worked at for for a decade um you know they have tons of data that you can actually do this and then and then of course manifestation is real because i think it's where physics went wrong it's like it we cut it off at consciousness and john wheeler and certain people you've gotten like observer dependent you know universe or whatever but he never went as far as like the parapsychology people where it's like no

you're actually collapsing the wave function with your you know your intention or your mind in some way and the crazy thing is if you actually go back to the early quantum field theorists who we should listen to more than like you know i'm again i'm a fan of like sean carroll and like a lot of these pop quantum mechanics people but like i think we should listen to you know von neumann over him and like schrodinger over him they were all super into consciousness and at times in all of their careers they flirted with the mind being the collapser of the wave function not it just being this quantum measurement device so for us to like dogmatically that's that's incredibly empowering it is man it is totally and i don't think it's totally this

complete you know goosebumps pick your path pick your reality or maybe it is like goosebumps where it's like maybe pick among a set amount of scripts like i don't know maybe it's not like complete infinite superposition but um there's something about manifesting that i think it can it can devolve into escapism and if it's not done in like the right kind of you know you're not heart centered or like you're doing a thing for the wrong reasons or it's not it's kind of an arbitrary thing that's not actually meant for you it can kind of backfire yeah you know but i also believe it's like fully real like i don't know you probably experienced it in your life right like you know yeah i definitely i mean i think uh when i started this media company i was at

2017 when i started writing about bitcoin for friends and family at that point i was 25 i just turned 26 actually um for like 18 months leading up to that i was unemployed like i i started at a hedge fund and hated the v lookup lifestyle and decided to like learn more about tech and moved to new york and was with my my wife was my girlfriend at the time but actually we got married right before i started writing but it was like back against the wall like yeah not able to sort of and it was almost intent like i always hated having a boss i really never liked conventional jobs um that i had but at that point back against the wall like i need to get a job and sort of the serendipity of where bitcoin price was and people looking

to learn about it and then um i think for the longest time in bitcoin i had imposter syndrome where it's like who am i to educate people about this but i was like you know what i can do it and i'm gonna go start doing it with this newsletter and then got confident there was like i think i can do more and led to this and that ultimately led to starting that mining business led to 1031 and um the the concept of like just doing things like i think i applied that to my life at least over the last eight years and have sort of manifested this reality that i'm extremely happy with so cool man and within that journey was there anything like a sync like a synchronicity where like you had a premonition that you'd like encounter a person or like do a thing

and then that thing just happened i yeah i think jack door the big break for this show is jack dorsey came on in like 2019 and i think i'd always when he first announced like cash app getting into bitcoin like in 2017 i was like i'm gonna get him on the show one day yeah it happened two years later yeah yeah but you kind of just knew it yeah yeah i love that you kind of like feel something you're like yeah that i think that's gonna happen yeah and there was something like this would not exist without twitter twitter is yeah for me where i absorbed all the information and created all the connections through dms and um yeah it was sort of like in my mind that sort of collision of jack and i being on the show and we've become friends um was sort of manifest and like i

gotta make that happen at some point it's pretty amazing man i'm cool i'm excited to you know see where it uh where it goes you know i think uh i think there's a lot of interesting momentum in bitcoin world right now i mean and likewise conversely with what you're doing it's infinitely fascinating um let's see it's uh yeah it's crazy time i think it's just uh accelerating so yeah we'll see we'll see where it where it lands but optimistic though ultimately yeah i think there's gonna be a lot of bullshit yeah maybe near term but i think uh long term yeah i'm super optimistic i think it's it's something you can't you know fully you can't keep the cat in the bag no whatever no what about you are you optimistic long term yeah

yeah yeah very yeah again manifest like you can you can do them and you can manifest bad outcomes and bad realities in the future you can say no we can actually we have the tools and the facilities and the ability to actually fix this so like why not just manifest the optimistic future well you're yeah i mean you told me what percentage of your net worth is in bitcoin i won't out you but it was the epitome of skin in the game i really respected that yeah like that's pretty cool it's um i've said it probably it's like 110 now at this point yeah but yeah it's it's worked too yeah yeah yeah um i was telling you too like this company we accumulate bitcoins or treasury asset and it's honestly allowed us to succeed in ways in which we couldn't otherwise if

we weren't exposed to Bitcoin. Like I've never had to raise money for this and I've been able to reinvest over the years as Bitcoin is appreciated. So, so epic. It's awesome. There's something about going high beta and this is putting it in annoyingly financial terms,

but it's like high beta, some longterm trend. That's just really good. And it's like coming out and you see it before other people. That's the best. Yeah. And like, you can't replace that.

And it's funny. I'm, i wouldn't say at a crossroads but it's like my my a lot of my investing so i'm just like you know not as active as i used to be and i've often thought about like how do i reconcile the uap thing with you know the tech thing that i was doing which is like totally disparate you know uh and and had nothing to do with this despite what internet conspiracy theorists think you know building a ufo for peter teal or whatever but um but uh you know i think there's a there's actually like a lot of nobility and uh going completely you know all in on something that you know people

think you're you're nuts for for doing and that was the process of you know already you know when i started got got this deal where i went independent there are all sorts of you know people who knew me in my former context who were like you're what are you doing you're starting a youtube channel on alien you know i the alien thing really took off like a little farther into the youtube channel so maybe it was even more cringeworthy. It was just like this general YouTube channel. I didn't really know what I was doing, but it was,

that's the best thing I think to do. It's like the weird, the weird third path thing. It's not this, like, you know, the linear stuff always ends. And if it's good,

it's predictably good in a lame way. Yeah. And then you, you know, and then if it's bad, like then you didn't have fun and it, the outcome sucked. Um,

so no, that's just part of my, that's like part of my nature. Like when I was working at the man, his future spun out college, like physically could not stand it it was intellectually stimulating i love the people i work with but the just the monotony of the process and being forced to yeah work within the frame set forth by the fun just like always i think there's a thing where sometimes you

there's something inside of you where you you have like an allergic reaction you're like i can't like there's some like program inside of you or it's like i can't i can't work here anymore like and i remember that at google like my last you know six months or a year i was like i'm just not i'm not this isn't for me or whatever and uh you know you yeah it's like it's like it was like that um you know one of the first scenes in fight club where it's like this dreary like window pane through which you're seeing the world like you walk i'm like what the fuck am i doing here and they like these the corporate sycophanty people make you feel crazy like you know they're like well i wrote a one pager and i did this thing and then blah blah blah and they're like can

can you you know go to this all hands to do this blah blah and i'm like you're what are you fucking talking what is it none of this means anything it's the second friday of the month we got pizza yeah yeah yeah they're pumped about that they are fired up to go to like the you know the salesforce conference with the briefcase and talk to the one person and like and their stock option they're always talking about their stock options and credit card points and shit and like and then i'm like what's wrong am i defective like what's wrong with me and then you leave and you're like oh like you know and i don't know it was amazing it was i was honestly um even getting into like you know the uh uh peter's orbit and and working with him was like this wow like you

know open-minded thinking like outside the box thinking is is valued somewhere and uh yeah no i think um no yeah anybody listening in your early 20s pull the ripcord if you have those feelings like even when i was unemployed for they say like i left finance learn about tech because that's when the app explosion was happening social media was happening um really coming into its own and took some shitty software sales jobs one of which i quit on a whim because i couldn't take it anymore i was like i'll get a job in two weeks turned out to be 18 months but even during that 18 months like it was stressful times luckily i'd saved up some bitcoin so it wasn't wasn't like uh wasn't out of um it wasn't poor um but i spent that 18 months like skateboarding and just like

thinking about what i wanted to do learning more about bitcoin and um yeah i think that's the best develop that confidence to begin writing about it yes well i think i think it's like sometimes when you extract yourself from everything the entire rat race what's meant for you always comes back and i actually i get tired of the ufo stuff all the time and i like quit it for like the show for like nine months and then this opportunity to do a kind of a little mini doc on david grush this whistleblower testified before congress you know and put it gave a ton of documentation to the you know um intelligence community inspector general to the effect of like warehouses like you know at area aerospace corporations across the united states housing

ufo technology and like the existence of you know non-human biologic you know all these things and programs you know being illegally funded and it felt like it came back in the super serendipitous like sometimes if you if you leave you know the tracks what's meant for you will come to you and i feel the same way about how i met you know peter teal super organic and and serendipitous and you know sort of cold reached out to him um and i i think things like that those little inflections happen when you give yourself the space and uh yeah i love i love that you were just skateboarding sometimes just taking off and just doing you know uh just actually removing yourself from society or whatever yeah you know it's the best thing yeah and i was also i should give props to my

wife we were living together she had a job and so um she supported me during that time and was very um very forgiving and uh she wasn't like go get a job you you dirtbag she understood what i was going through that's amazing i think she's in that she's at the point where we have two kids third on the way she doesn't have to work and yeah um i think she i think we're developing a really cool life which is sweet that's amazing man well i'm pumped and i'd love to come to whatever bitcoin things you do here yeah we got we got things going on here every month so cool you gotta come by more often i'd love to yeah man everybody go check out american alchemy this has been fucking it's a great way to start the saturday i love it man sorry i was late that's

all this was this is epic man i appreciate it marty thank you for having me man and uh this is a blast thank you jesse peace and love freaks Thank you.