TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #614: Why Bitcoiners Should Have The Nicest Chairs with Brian Harrington

Episode Date: May 2, 2025

Marty sits down with Brian Harrington to discuss challenging the "never sell" mindset. Brian Harrington on Twitter: https://x.com/BrainHarrington Brian Harrington Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@brainharrington 0:00 - Intro 0:36 - Bitcoiners should have better chairs 8:52 - Fold & Coinkite 10:23 - Reject FOMO paralysis 17:59 - You can live on bitcoin today 22:44 - Unchained 23:13 - How to live on a bitcoin standard 31:38 - TFTC on a bitcoin standard 34:18 - Fold and other tools 36:50 - Hesitancy and what to tell your wife 47:36 - The framework is already here 55:53 - Confidence in the million dollar bitcoin 1:04:12 - Level up for your kids Shoutout to our sponsors: Fold https://tftc.io/fold Coinkite https://coinkite.com Unchained https://unchained.com/tftc/ Join the TFTC Movement: Main YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/c/TFTC21/videos Clips YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUQcW3jxfQfEUS8kqR5pJtQ Website https://tftc.io/ Newsletter tftc.io/bitcoin-brief/ Twitter https://twitter.com/tftc21 Instagram https://www.instagram.com/tftc.io/ Nostr https://primal.net/tftc Follow Marty Bent: Twitter https://twitter.com/martybent Nostr https://primal.net/martybent Newsletter https://tftc.io/martys-bent/ Podcast https://www.tftc.io/tag/podcasts/

You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free. When you talk about a Fed just gone nuts. All the central banks going nuts. So it's all acting like safe haven. I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor. i mean that's part of the bull case for bitcoin if you're not paying attention you probably should be sup freak sitting down with brian harrington it's been a few years since you've been on

this show it's great to have you back yes thank you man thank you it was yeah i i think you saw a video of me yelling at a like a frustrated coveted rally actually and so way different times, way different times. My first time on the show. Way different times, way different times, way better times. I think right now, I think, I think momentum is strong right now. A hundred percent. And that's what, and I wanted to pivot to the optimism quickly. Like, because I'm a way different person than I was back then. Like I'm a, I'm a way different person. My life is in a way different position than it was back when I first talked to you, like multiple kids since then, multiple houses since

then i still own my houses since then uh i'm i'm calling you today from the the second walk-in closet in my third house like dude bitcoin is good like life is good it's awesome it really is and i think that's why i'm excited to talk to you now because you're i think militant is the correct word to describe you in terms of trying to shift people's mindsets around bitcoin and how they're interacting with it from a personal finance perspective yeah i think with that in mind like what is the number one lesson or the list of lessons that have really become crystal clear to you since we last spoke in this regards of using bitcoin as your financial cornerstone in your life so i want to talk about tactics i want to talk about

about tactics one talk about strategy but like we have to talk about the mindset first we have to talk about the mindset or none of that stuff will land and not not to get too cheesy about it but we have to because this is what really led me to trying to find new tactics and seeing bitcoin differently was just really trying to understand you know like why why do bitcoiners why do we go through these pendulum swings of like wanting to tell everyone about bitcoin and then like this sucks no one's listening like screw them all like why does that happen to us and how and how are other influencers doing it different i guess and that's what like when you go out on the internet and you talk to someone who's like a real estate maximalist dude they're gonna they're

gonna look you at facebook real estate is the path to financial freedom marty thank you so much for having me on today here's the 10 point plan like real estate is the path to financial freedom and they're like they'll just hit it like straight off the bat like none not ashamed nothing from the top and i just realized like to bit like we aren't bitcoin influencers i don't really do that um you know crypto influencers crypto influencers will do that for you they'll be like dude like here's the 10-step trading program like here's how you get rich like all this stuff and And I think it has, like, you have to start with the mindset of like, it's okay to want to be wealthy.

And it's okay to be like, Bitcoin has fully changed my life. Bitcoin has fully changed my life. And I'm sitting here today with more optionality, more financial freedom than had I used fiat instead of Bitcoin. And so I think having some like optimism around it, but then really like believing that optimism is like a big part of it. The other mindset thing, the other mindset thing that I think gets gets deep, and this is hard, like because Bitcoin is scarce, right? Like that's the whole thing is like fixed supply, fixed supply, fixed supply. So we realize the urgency and the necessity

of like like owning 0.21 owning one bitcoin owning 2.1 bitcoin that's a big deal like those are big deals in a fixed like monetary like protocol that is expanding around the world right and so we get super focused on that but that also can weirdly create a scarcity mindset inside of us to where oh if we think about accomplishing a different goal in a different niche of our life that does like take resources from stacking right and i'm not even getting to spending bitcoin yet i'm just saying stacking like fresh income like fresh fresh energy we're so used to kind of having this like frantic energy around like, I don't have enough,

I don't have enough, I don't have enough. You really have to analyze like that inside of you and almost like really wrestle with that to I think then, I think that's why there's a lot of, I think that's why there's a lot of pushback sometimes to like the Bitcoin personal finance stuff I say is because I am kind of challenging some underlying, kind of things that have just been routinely said yeah i agree on both points because we

we had a call what two weeks ago but that was the last thing you say we need to be more sort of i don't want to say bombastic but be more sort of own like bitcoin is the path to financial freedom and just like be explicit like bitstein taught us years ago simple phrases like Bitcoin is the path to financial freedom. And look, that's right in the face of one of these simple phrases like Bitstein and Richard, the whole sell your chairs, right? Sell your chairs, sell your chairs is like this simple, this extreme frugality, simple sentence is still when I go around like internally, externally, YouTube, wherever, and I talk about Bitcoin personal finance, Bitcoin personal finance, Bitcoin personal finance. One of these things,

like one of these sayings that popped to mind is this like sell your chairs, this extreme frugality. and that's why yeah the other day i was just like dude i think we should have nicer chairs like i think bitcoiners should have nicer chairs than fiat investors like it should be so obvious they should know that we are bitcoiners by our chairs it should be so obvious i agree that's why we have nice chairs here in the studio pre 1971 chairs spent a pretty spent a good amount of stats on these back in 2021 when uh when i set up the studio 100 no and i'm glad like the the pre-1971 and the everything like fiat fiat has gotten into the quality of everything i was thinking about that this morning like before calling you like

how you know we have bitcoiners have dove into other niches whether it is the like fiat food and i talked about the food supply i talked about these things talking about the quality of things it's there like it's it's definitely there and and i've gone through my pendulum of like oh that's that's annoying to where it's not annoying like but i do i do think that is like directionally correct of realizing that like fiat has made the quality of things bad and it's not bad to want to return quality to your life but then still have but and then i think just bringing the optimism though more like bringing more of the optimism and not so much like oh the world was so good before fiat we have to return to like that way or whatever i went through

that like i dude i had my whole i had my whole like homesteading phase like all this stuff i went through my last house i was building a homestead in the backyard it's all the way on youtube net now now i'm gonna tackle a brand new thing we're we're not doing any rainwater capture we're just like i'm classically backyard like turfing and tiling and pool like the entire thing there's no permaculture none of it i'm doing the exact opposite so anything can be fine any niche can be fine um but i don't think yeah like i kind of about my time i don't think it's bad to like be motivated by having nice things and i don't think it's bad to just be very a little bit more in your face than we have in traditional Bitcoin personal finance sense of like, no, like Bitcoin, if you

want to afford nice things, I can afford nice things because I use Bitcoin instead of dollars. Listen, Freaks, I know you're tired of me talking about Fold, but I'm going to beat the drum. I'm going to beat the dead horse. If you're a Bitcoiner living in the United States and you're not using Fold, I'm just going to ask one question. What are you doing? You're leaving sats on the table. They've got gift cards. They've got their debit card. You can use your credit card. Just connect your credit card to the fold app use the fold out to pay off your credit card and you're going to stack your credit card points and bitcoin as well they even teamed up with crowd health to give their members fold plus membership at no cost don't leave sats on the table

go sign up for fold today go to tftc.io slash fold there's nothing to lose except sats that you could have stacked sup freaks this rip of tftc was brought to you by our good friends at coin kite they make the cold card queue my favorite hardware wallet the most secure hardware wallet on the market as you can see it's got the blackberry form factor full keyboard it's got two secure enclaves you create your private public keys offline the device never has to go online never does go online so you keep your bitcoin secure if you have your bitcoin on exchanges and you're looking to get it off secure it in the best way possible pick up a cold card queue go to

coin kite.com find the cold card queue use the code tftc for five percent off if you're a power user of bitcoin like i am if you're running a business on a bitcoin standard if you're just a bitcoiner wants to secure your bitcoin get the most secure hardware wallet on the market go get the cold card queue it's a beautiful thing yeah i i think it's inarguable if you've been in it long enough like the studio funded by bitcoin my personal life funded by the company and bitcoin over time but i do agree with you there is that sort of uh internal conflict that exists when you have like i need to increase my stack by as much as possible as frugally as possible with the bitcoin is supposed to make our lives incredibly

way better because we're going to have increased purchasing power that allows us to buy nicer stuff so i think it's important to recognize that you have that sort of internal conflict and once you recognize that plan to benefit from both to increase your stack but also increase the quality of your life while while you're doing that and this is why one of these again simple repeated phrases that it might be time to kind of sunset or just again really analyzes this whole the simple phrase of like never selling simple phrase of never selling it it i think it creates more confusion creates more headwinds to that than it like then it helps actually and because and i'll come at this even from a very

like you did a great job of highlighting how your bitcoin is increasing your purchasing power it's increasing your purchasing power and that's why if you're measuring if you're measuring your net worth in Bitcoin, to continue your net worth in Bitcoin, like climbing, takes a lot of sacrifice, like it takes a lot of blinders on sacrifice. And so and that's the mode that a lot of people have been in for a lot of years. It takes a retraining to realize that, dude, having the bitcoin balance stay flat while the purchasing power of it is increasing you're almost like but then you're almost like taking profits with your lifestyle or with your kind of you're taking on bigger risks because i don't want to just talk about accumulating stuff either like i you know

i received like a i'm receiving more and more dms the more i'm like trying to talk about this and it's like people want to buy businesses like people want to earn things that are like cash flowing or like income replacing like there's there is kind of a groundswell of that happening so it's not just about like again trying to boil it down to simple sentences about shares like it is that thing of like how owning nicer things but it also is this thing of like what if instead of never selling what if it was like the the long-winded way is if you can keep your Bitcoin net worth flat while taking more and more shots on goal of owning a business or stepping up your salary or investing in your marriage, like doing like those things,

your capacity as a person is actually growing to where you honestly could probably end up with more bitcoin in the future than just your linear dca path that you're on i completely agree i think that's a great sort of explanation of how my mindset shifted over the last five years specifically which is don't let the FOMO become all encompassing to the point where you get this state of paralysis, where it's just like, Oh my God, I need to get as much Bitcoin. And you're, you're not thinking about how to improve yourself so that you can go be more productive to make more money that will

enable you to buy more Bitcoin. I think this is something that is beginning to really take a hold of many people within bitcoin is this mindset of oh if i just be more productive and bring more value to the economy and increase my cash flow that's how i stack more bitcoin i think that is certainly what i'm focused on whether it's here tftc what we're doing at 1031 it's really the the path to higher stacking for me personally is making this a better business making 1031 the best business that it can be and increasing that cash flow dude and i'll take it i don't think this is i don't think bitcoin can go to a million dollars until like marty bent becomes that person that is doing that like i don't think bitcoin can go to a million dollars

until i'm like five years different from who we just talked about we're way different than it was last time i called you like i i don't think it can do that until i'm a person not it's not about me it's not about you but like i don't think it can do that until we as people are bigger containers like with bigger opportunity than than we are right now um and and i'll give a reason for that kind of like the reason for that because another thing i want to push back on is how i think sometimes in our language around personal finance sometimes we say like other assets or other investments must lose or like in other investments measured in bitcoin are going to zero is like another like big concept and so there's this thing of like oh like bitcoin will be the only winner

is the only winner the the people like the people in power and i'm saying power in a neutral way not in like a government not in like a oh stopping things from happening way just like influential like in that the people that have built their influence through the wealth building of other assets are not going to lose like i don't think they're going to lose like i've experienced this in my own life where it's like i've at the meetup we ran in orange county for for years grew in influence grew in influence the number went up we grew in influence and i i was never like physically patted on the head but i was like metaphorically patted on the head by just like newport beach and orange county people that are just like good job brian like you have money now

like we have money too and it's like it's it's that that's what i think about it like we as people like the other like you you've grown a ton and been able to network with like very big real large audience like a different level of of influence and it's like until bitcoin can be credibly shared in those kind of influential environments it's it as a thing is not going to grow large enough to do everything we think it's going to be and so like that that's what i think about a lot that it's not just it's not just like oh this is nice like i've been able i was in being able to like be in this thing for so long now i have optionality in my life it's like no actually like i don't think the other half of the equation

of like fix the money fix the world can happen until like we as people are like more influential and bigger containers for influence than we are right now and i think i think you've picked up on part of our strategy in recent years which is i love everybody in bitcoin i love you brian i love anybody working on bitcoin whether it's at the protocol level building businesses thinking about it from a macro economic perspective i love all of you but i think eight years into this show i don't want to say those conversations get boring but they get a little bit repetitive and i think the intent at least the one of the intents of the show in recent years has been to extend that olive branch to these other spheres of influence that exist outside of bitcoin and

just have open conversations about what they're focused on and when the opportunity presents itself just sprinkle in a little bitcoin okay you think this way i think bitcoin could help attain a goal that you have that that may be an unlock for you that you don't recognize yet and just slowly but surely seeping bitcoin into the conversation of these other influential spheres i think is a at least part of the strategy here at tftc is trying to do more of that absolutely i think absolutely and that's part of why i and and that's part of those people someone who's already influential someone who's already influential is not motivated by hey you can get more rich like they already are rich like they already are influential they're

not motivated by the government sucks and is printing fiat money and is like hurting like all of us maybe they are like maybe they are but but the the the leap from like they're just that we have to we have to be credible in our message of bitcoin fixes this um um and i just don't and people it takes time like it just takes so much time i don't think i think we underestimate like i i i think i i think i underestimated how like influential the current landscape is and i think even back in the day when i was just yelling and excited and i'm still yelling and excited but i i think i was like i was just very i i didn't that felt very like complacent to say

that and so even today even today when i'm saying like oh like we need to become more influential and more wealthy and make it more obvious i'm listen to what i'm saying i'm not saying like oh because this is going to take another 10, 15, 20 years. Like I'm not, I'm not saying that part. And I think that's part of why this message comes across as boring sometimes, but I'm actually not saying that. Like, I'm actually saying that

you actually need way less Bitcoin than you think you do to become influential. Like, and that's what I'm trying to tell people is like right now today, dude, if you've been listening to Marty Bent for six, seven, eight years, your your meat your savings is well above the median savings for your age in this country like that's the other thing i was going to say i was going to actually not to like cut anyone out

but i just want to continue to niche down on this like i really hyper think about like 25 to 55 year old like guys like living in the united states that's who i think about like people and those people that have w-2 jobs 25 to 55 in the united states like philosophically orange-pilled and now really dealing with the reality of like dude like i have a lot of options here like i have a lot of options here compared to my demographic and i i really want like though that those people who identify with being one of those people that like your family like has to become stronger like for one million Bitcoin to happen. Like you have to become a better business person for a million dollar Bitcoin to happen. Like you have to understand the way that local politics like

works in your town for a million dollar Bitcoin to happen. Like, like actually, because that's what all of the influential people all having, like all have in common. And if you have that all dialed in more than them, it is like a chess match. We used to pride ourselves on having the best game theory a lot. But I think we kind of like softened on that a little bit and just kind of like, it'll work out. Our good friends, Parker Lewis and Dhruv Bansal are two of the deepest thinkers in Bitcoin. While they come from very different backgrounds, they've landed on the exact same conclusion. It's Bitcoin that matters, not crypto. This masterclass lays out why 21 million is the key breakthrough how bitcoin not blockchain creates decentralization why everything

else will be built on bitcoin understand why bitcoin works and why nothing else does watch the premiere at unchained.com tftc that's unchained.com tftc so let's dive into some specifics here at the micro level individual in that demographic 25 to 55 year old male with a savings that if they've been listening and stacking for eight years should be well above the national median or the national average as well i would imagine what should they be doing like what are some steps and let's let's let's get some different archetypes out there let's say we have a finance bro we have a tech bro we have a blue collar worker yeah let's do it so here's the first thing I think you should do. And I love this exercise. Think about your finances in terms

of like, long term, medium term, short term, long term is like the classic retirement, like whatever that means for you, the way future, okay? Medium term is like, right now it's April, say Christmas, like my property taxes are due in December. And all the Christmas gifts are due in December. Okay, So that's medium term. Short term is like this month's bills, this month's bills. Okay. If you're that person, you've crushed long-term savings. Okay. You crushed it. You listened to all the podcasts. You did all the advice. You did it. Long-term savings is done, done. Like stick a fork in it. You did it. You already accomplished that. The next two buckets I would really challenge you to think about are medium term and short term. Okay. Short term is like you go on

Twitter, you go on X or go on Marty's other episode, like you go listen to the like, get on zero guys. Okay, sure. If you want to take short term all the way to the extreme and really step up your ability to incorporate Bitcoin into your personal finances and really understand the why behind the math and all that stuff, there's that. But purposely, let's just set that over there for second, because there's people that are passionate about that is what it is. If this is your first time, like hearing a lot of this, and you've been like feeling this of like trying to find the next thing, trying to find the next Bitcoin personal finance thing, I really want to talk about this medium term. Because the number one way to kind of challenge in your own life, the extreme

frugality, and the extreme, like never selling is I believe in this medium term bucket. So up to this point get like get paid in bitcoin was kind of just a more convenient way to dca but because of like because of fold and we're gonna get in the tactics of like tools because of fold and the incorporation of the account and routing number and this concept of bitcoin personal finance and really blurring the line between bitcoin and dollars using them both together challenging the extreme frugality challenging the never selling i really think there's this medium term savings bucket for this december's christmas gifts for this december's property taxes for the you know partial emergency fund of the whatever really recognizing that like

different buckets of bitcoin and this is what's funny this goes all the way back to the first episode we we recorded but it's it's very more much more real now like different different buckets for different things different buckets for different things and stop continuing stop thinking about bitcoin as only this long term i'll use it when i'm rich someday i'll be rich someday pass down to my kids like all this stuff right because all and like all of that is fine and good but just having like having this medium-term bucket so that's what i would do i would have this thing of what percent of your personal finances long term are in bitcoin most likely 100%, very, very close to 100%. What percent of your personal finances for the short

term this month are in Bitcoin? For the classic person out there, probably not a lot, probably zero. Okay. So in the medium term bucket, what percent are in there? Are you saving for a house down payment? Are you saving for that in Bitcoin or in dollars? That's when it starts to get like really interesting and really realizing that you can have a medium term savings bucket with the purpose of getting paid in Bitcoin pushing it into that bucket with the intent purpose to pull it back out to accomplish that like life goal is what I would say for that uh medium bucket and I have and I have one thing about this short-term bucket too but what do you think I like that for me personally too I think that's one thing I struggle with my wife says it's because I'm a

gemini she believes in that stuff but i'm like very uh very sort of spur of the moment type of guy long-term thinking like i do have my long-term bitcoin savings obviously but when it comes to planning in the short to medium term that's something at hand up i struggle with and so like having a framework from which to operate within and think about that and apply some actionable steps towards that is important for me i want to talk about family we'll talk i want to talk about family and doing finances like together um on the short-term bucket okay so that's an exercise people can use in the medium-term bucket an exercise you can do in the short-term bucket that will i think expand your brain and i've done this is just take one bill

like just take one bill because at the heart at the heart of get on zero is just this concept that the same math the same math that statistically like bitcoin is like increasing in purchasing power you can dial that math all the way back to actually like a daily holding rate of bitcoin and like the daily holding rate of bitcoin like that like the ev like holding bitcoin on any day is positive ev even a cut even accounting for short-term capital gains holding bitcoin on any single day is EV, expected value, positive expected value. So do that for one bill. Do that for one bill. Just take your phone bill or your water bill. Push that amount into the account and shoot over a little bit. Shoot over a little bit of it, put it in the account, and then pay the bill with

it. Get paid in Bitcoin, push it back to dollars, pay the bill with it. Get paid in Bitcoin, push it to dollars, pay the bill with it. And what you'll find is that when you're paid on a two week cycle, and when your bill goes out on a 30 day cycle, you're floating up and down on the exchange rate. So even if you catch a bad step, like the steps will even themselves out. And when you're paid every two weeks, but the bills go out on every 30 days, you're like, you're just floating up and down. And this is the other thing of when you add on the whole part of the reason why like credit card, like people like in this bucket, love the whole credit card so much is because that extends the life cycle even more. Like when you, so you get paid in Bitcoin every two weeks,

every two weeks, every two weeks, your cell phone bill comes, you put it on a credit card, and then 30 days later, it's due. So now you're paying your cell phone bill net 60 while you're getting paid in Bitcoin every two weeks. And holding Bitcoin on any day is a good bet, a good bet, a good bet. That's all get on, like, that's all get on zero is. And that's what changed my, like, that math. As soon as it was like, that's why these conversations are so powerful. Like, when those guys were like, hey, like, no, the math, like, makes sense.

That set off a whole new thing in my brain of, like, that's why coming in here today, I'm not the like, oh, it's going to take 10, 15, 20 years for the whole like, million dollar Bitcoin or whatever to happen. Like, no, like the math, the math and the tools as it is today. You can live on Bitcoin. You don't have to live in El Salvador. You don't have to be an influencer. Like you, like 25 to 55 year old guy with the family in the suburbs. Like I'm calling you from the suburbs i like you today can live on bitcoin that like that realization that you can do that is really powerful yeah it's funny for me personally the get on zero sort of journey has been actualized in the business before my personal life which is oh i'm like as close to

zero as you can get personally but still like i like to keep a nice cash balance in the bank account just to make sure my wife's comfortable to make sure it's just but i have i've had i have had more instances where it's like all right there's no cash in the bank now it's time to sell some sell some bitcoin move it over to the bank but with the business specifically just nature bitcoin focused business employees prefer to get paid in bitcoin so i think every employee here gets a portion of their paycheck in bitcoin rent here bitcoin park austin bitcoin park accepts bitcoin for rent so that's a bill i can pay in bitcoin so like at the business like it's been easier just because our external touch points in terms of employees and

contractors i guess or landlord specifically are accepting bitcoin it's like oh it just makes sense like when we get paid in fiat from average and alternatively there's some advertisers that pay bitcoin as well and so it's just been easy for us and it has been positive ev for the business is keeping that working capital in bitcoin over the course of years yeah no dude and i think and why everyone to hear this like really loud and clear like everyone can do it differently everyone can do it differently and this isn't a new i don't we shouldn't reach i don't want to restart the like who's the bigger like bitcoiner thing because like we already did all that like we already did all that and that was those years were good and fine and whatever but like that it's not

like i i i want the the amount of bitcoin business content exactly what you said has to 10x like again in order to be this reality that we want this that conversation has to 10x has to 100x at the personal level it has to 10x it has to 100x people have to like be in real time in real time we're writing the bitcoin personal finance advice because it didn't it didn't exist from the traditional personal finance space it didn't exist from the financial independent retire early crowd and but it also didn't fully exist from the og like bitcoiners either like they're great at talking about bitcoin they weren't the greatest at talking about like personal finance and so no no like i think there's a groundswell that's that's ready for it and that's

what's exciting yeah and i think the tools are way better than they've ever been and make it as easy as possible absolutely so bouncing off of uh let's let's dive into fold and like the tool set you have but me personally on the personal side of my balance sheet not not the business balance sheet personal balance sheet like i like to keep as much bitcoin as possible in liquid working capital for my family balance sheet yeah and tools like fold and strike being able and cash app those three specifically come to mind being able to move bitcoin on the exchange sell it and then wire to my fiat bank account immediately i'm willing to pay the fee but just having that ability is a massive unlock for being able to live on a bitcoin standard

yep no absolutely and that's what so i was going to bounce off bitcoin park austin talk about your other um so cool tool like this is another cool tool and the thing i want to talk about today was that so crowd health crowd health is um an insurance like an insurance option crowdfunding instead of insurance crowdfunding instead of insurance funding instead of insurance yeah andy will yell at us if we call it insurance no perfect perfect crowdfunding instead of insurance and that's like that's really powerful like they're doing a great job speaking about like changing the world like him them as a company is changing bureaucracy changing a lot of entrenched interests entrenched like things that the world has been doing making it more efficient and

what's exciting about that is that the crowd health app they have a fold savings plan so your surplus crowdfund contributions can auto sweep to bitcoin auto sweep to bitcoin into fold app every single month. And that's an example of like, we're kind of in real time building like a one to one almost like health savings account replacement. So the Bitcoin economy has like one by one taken all of the like, types of accounts that the old world had, and just kicked out the fiat and like made a Bitcoin kicked out the fiat made Bitcoin. And so that's just when you're your, your comment about the tools being better than they were is exactly right like the groundswell of people looking for this stuff and feeling internally that they're ready for this stuff and the tools

have all like it's that's why it's really exciting like this year 2025 is exciting and what would your response be to somebody who's like has that feeling but they're still like ah i don't know I don't know I don't know if I could do it it seems like too much of a leap for me yeah I would so well I want to talk about the family thing and how

that like our partners our families is sometimes like a blocker that we have a little bit um I'm trying to think one more second about like at an individual level at an individual level i would

at an individual level i would just really like almost we talk i don't know we talked about before kind of like so i've been journaling like i journal with like chad gbt a lot like i've just really been doing a lot of um inner work of just like why like what can i do to like level up as a person and level up my kind of just emotional processing capacity and really do that and so i would tell like i would say i think ask like sitting with yourself like sitting with yourself and asking yourself deeper questions just has a giant like a giant giant roi it just it just does like like turning off turning off the podcast graying out your phone like this random like did you if you triple click

the side button of your iphone it'll grayscale the iphone the notifications will like hit your face less they'll like hit your face less and it'll let your brain like relax it'll let your brain relax more i've just been nerding out on like so much of that stuff i'm just like so so So if you're feeling like, I'm feeling it a little bit, but just like, I don't know, I don't know, like it feels risky, I would say like, try it with one small bucket. I would say for even, and look, a lot of people, we've already done this, but maybe there's new people, again, there's, buy one thing with Bitcoin, just buy one thing with Bitcoin. Sell 10 bucks of Bitcoin, like just rip the bandaid off, like rip.

bandaid off and figure out like how do you actually feel like how do you actually feel because i was going to give this example i was going to give this example more in terms of like for people that have for people that have partners but like like look you can buy gift cards with lightning like on fold like honestly like buy a doordash gift card and just like get some food and like think about bitcoin i know that kind of just sounds so cheesy but that truly that honestly actually could be like the biggest unlock for your brain is like watching bitcoin flow out and something flow back into your life and what does the data look like in terms of doing that on a consistent basis to your sex so you get paid right to bitcoin yeah a bunch of stuff on your

credit card but also instead of selling that bitcoin move it to your bank account ordering door dash having it come from straight from your account instead take out or just go through another path which is buy a door dash gift card overlay and get some stats back and then upload that gift card and make the purchase that way yeah there's lots of yeah there's lots of different paths you're yeah you talked a little bit about like getting paid in bitcoin part and then paying from your full balance like there's definitely there's definitely that path um i was just specifically talking for someone who has just never if you've just never bought anything with bitcoin like if your town if your town doesn't have the bar that takes bitcoin if you've still

never bought the random sticker from any one place if you've never you know but had like go to btc pins go to tftc and like buy a sticker like if you've never done that yet just do that with lightning is definitely like one way to like watch the watch the bitcoin flow out and and receive it back and that will begin to get the wheels turning for you of just like how can i incorporate bitcoin deeper into your personal finances um let's talk about so that's for the individual let's talk about the i want to talk about the partner and for like guys that are married and just like how how to think about the different tools and what are maybe like other blockers in that regard that can that like ways to tackle bitcoin personal finance as a couple i'll start

perfect bank account on zero happens a lot in our family it's scary having conversations i think for me personally like sitting out my wife and saying bitcoin is not only our saving long-term savings vehicle but i'd like to keep our family working capital in that as well because i think it's help us stack more bitcoin and keep more bitcoin over time i think for us at least between the two of us it's getting a getting my wife comfortable with the bank account's going to be on zero sometimes but don't worry i'll show you i can move bitcoin cell and have money in the bank account in less than two minutes if we ever need it i think it's like having that conversation for me personally yeah no dude i think that's so i would put that as that's really awesome i the fact that you guys

have that relationship is like is awesome and i think that's really cool i think let's tackle let's tackle a couple up let's tackle a couple up from that and it's like i think all right or yeah okay so say you're listening to that say you're listening to that you're like, man, like, that's so awesome. I wish, Marty, I wish that I had that relationship. I wish that I had that relationship. Okay. So say someone's, say someone's listening to that. What, the fact that like, what did you just do right there? What do you just did was you're like, Hey, I'm okay selling. You're like, that's literally what you're saying. You're saying like, I'm okay selling again, putting it in simple language, like just for that part, like you're

like i'm okay selling so you're putting you're punching extreme frugality in the face you're punching never selling in the face you're just like i'm okay selling i think the baby baby step for that is honestly like you're having your partner know that like you are okay selling like having your partner know that there are household financial goals and like our relationship together is above selling. It's like a really powerful thing to have and to demonstrate. Again, peeling it back to even easier and easier baby steps. How about just simply our relationship and our financial goals together are even like above DCA-ing. Like maybe you are still building your stack and you are still building it. And all of us in some capacity, again, are still

keeping the bitcoin balance flat trying to slightly increase it or again just only trying to slightly decrease like we're all it's all still in that like it's not selling the farm and all of it to to like massively do something but say you're in the thing of 500 bucks a month is the dca budget but it's constantly kind of like a maybe like a better dca budget is more in the 250 range and the other 250 is for like more date nights or like for marriage counseling or for like taking a vacation like whatever that version of that ordering more takeout like whatever that version of that is for you there that that tension is going to be there at some point where it's like we're trying to accomplish xyz in the relationship we're also trying to like grow the bitcoin balance

grow the bitcoin balance and you yeah like so it's it's either just having them know that it's okay like you have input and it's okay for us to edit the dca in this way you have input and it's okay for us to hold zero dollars because we can move bitcoin over there um is big and i think that's then kind of just because on a roll like that's then where a lot of people give me some people give me a hard time about about the merchant offers at fold where it's like hey like like i don't want to do all that like just sounds like a lot of hoops sounds like whatever and look i totally get that i get that and that's where i would just reframe this entire thing this is why i wanted to talk to you about the mindset of like bitcoin personal finance first like if if that's

your mentality of like oh i have this great dca every month i don't want to do the like i don't need the merchant offer like it is what it is if that's you like just mentally reframe the entire thing is your dca at a good level like for your guys relationship or can you edit it a little bit and then what would your partner think about the merchant offers that fold is it like a sick friday night would be let's spend a hundred dollars on a total wine gift card and just go to total wine and buy a hundred dollars of like random stuff like there's a very real chance that you and your partner like doing that together and like getting the bitcoin rewards through fold what like there's a very real chance that the roi of that is higher than buying a hundred dollars of

bitcoin i'm trying to think through this right now too yeah let's buy the total wine you guys go you have a nice trip to the total wine store they have a nice bottle in from from brudeau this month it's on sale buy it you go enjoy it you got stats back and then use that as like a it's like a future learning experience like hey hey honey remember when we went to total wines look how much bitcoin uh we made from buying that merchant gift card instead of going and just buying buying it with cash right then exactly no exactly and that then literally is a then you're leaking bitcoin into your personal finance experience and then you're talking about oh why are bitcoin rewards better than fiat rewards uh because when we look back

at that four years from now that wine bottle is going to be xyz cheaper like that then sparks an interesting like conversation um and how close or far to the critical mass tipping point of that unlock particularly with bitcoin rewards do you think we are yeah i think the people the people that are really into it are fully into it like the habit takes over the habit takes over your life and it's not it's not a it's not a hassle it's just in your life like my wife and i just we bought like we source things for the house on full like it just our our instacart like all of grocery like all everything comes from instacart like from costco and we're just running it like all through there like creating a monthly habit of it and that's what i would tell people is that

i think the tipping point in your own life can come really fast to where it's it's just a habit like it's a habit thinking in terms of bitcoin rewards for everything your house consumes um instead of fiat rewards and i do think kind of back to the whole thing of like oh the tools these days are all better than they were like the fact that fold yeah like the bicking the bitcoin checking account element and the ability to buy bitcoin and hold hold bitcoin in dollars side by side use it all in personal finance way that made me fall back in love with rewards because all because all we used to have back then it was only rewards and full like that's why fold is so well known like as like the leading bitcoin rewards

like app now it's like the leading like personal finance like the companies you mentioned are great and all the companies are great and it's all it's all positive the total package of again trying to be like the platform for bitcoin personal finance where you and your partner like you can add your partner as a joint user like on the card you can direct deposit paychecks like having it be this like place the home base for your bitcoin and dollars is all yeah it's all right there like the tipping point is today like it's already here it's already here today that gets a good point like developing that habit how long does it take and i think let's use the amazon example instead of yeah total wines or instacart i think amazon is a low-hanging fruit that you know you have

recurring purchases on amazon every month like set a set a reminder internally maybe set like a a running calendar invite or calendar event first of every month like go into fold buy a couple buy a 500 amazon gift card load it up if it's available exactly and the habit becomes even easier for everyone everyone has different purchasing habits right some people like loading dollars from their paycheck on default some people just prefer using their credit card you can buy the merchant offers. You can buy the gift cards on your credit card, any card, any card. So that, and I like telling people that I'm like, it's not, it's not this hard pitch to your partner. It's simply, Hey, your credit card is already in

Amazon. All we're saying is put the credit card inside fold, get the car, get the gift card, load the gift card over there, and then shop on Amazon how you normally would. So it's just one change. Even from your personal finances, all the purchasing is still going on that same daily driver credit card your family already uses. And that's one time more that like they're thinking about Bitcoin that month. And I think that's a big thing of like, talking about mindset, like, everyone listening to the show thinks about Bitcoin all day, every single day. I think there's still, I think there is still a little bit of tension out there between Bitcoin is kind of just this, it can, in some relationships, just be this kind of like side hobby. Like, it's a personal financing, it's a side hobby thing. It's a like community thing of that. But the rest of the family isn't the rest of the people involved in your personal finances aren't like dialed in on a day-to-day level as much as you are and so that touch point talk

about habit forming like that touch point is huge getting them one more organic touch point with bitcoin per month i i just think i think the roi of that is i i don't think there's anything higher i don't i literally don't think there's anything higher i think the fact that like my wife sharon and i have been doing bitcoin together i'm very thankful we've been doing bitcoin together like the entire time i don't think i would be i don't think it would be half of where we are if we if it wasn't a joint thing was she apprehensive at first was there a moment in time in the last five six years where it clicked for her and she's like oh we don't have to yeah we don't have to have the conversation anymore i get it yeah um this is like this is not me just like making this

up like it really was actually like a full like full thing back then like being able to be like oh it's a like showing showing that we could bring things back into the house like with bitcoin was like oh our savings rate can go up because i demonstrated that if we needed to we could bring goods and services back into the home like with it helps and that's that's what i mean like i'm not even saying i'm not saying this from like a like this happened this happened in my life like showing you can bring things back into the house with bitcoin can increase your overall savings rate and it's like the whole merchant adoption meme is like you can't buy coffee with bitcoin i think this is a great example like well actually you can and not only i mean not your amazon's not

accepting bitcoin but the tools exist to effectively buy what you need with bitcoin dude i want to hit off that so i think a lot of us back in the day didn't accept that answer because we were really hung up on capital gains taxes and we're really under the impression i'm speaking for myself here but like i was really under the impression that like oh like the government funds itself with taxes i don't want to like participate with that or like help them because because like fix money fix the world like bitcoin is like better than fiat money like bitcoin is better than central banking we have to like hodl and outlast all of that so that we become big enough in order to do that when you sell back to dollars even if you're using it for

your own life you're like hurting the price like i really believe these things like i believe these things i believe these sentences and it that affected the way i thought about bitcoin uh personal finance and that's that's just like i'm here to say like that's not true like that's not true and that's not as it's actually the logic is actually the other way around like believing that cost me bitcoin like believing that continued to have it caused me to like have a foot in both worlds um and if i had got like without that mentality like i think it would have arrived at closer to a hundred percent faster, which means that I would have net more Bitcoin than I do today. My Bitcoin net worth would be higher than I do like do today. And so like, and this is back

to then kind of back to the influence thing. Like the, the number one, like if you want to help Bitcoin, like if you want to help Bitcoin and that's part of why you're like hot only never sell or whatever, that's part of your motivation. The number one way you could help Bitcoin is to become a more influential person like it's not dude we're past that like bitcoin bitcoin is being talked about the highest level of the world man like the number one thing you can do to help bitcoin is like level up and become a bigger container that your five hundred dollars a month thousand dollars a month hundred thousand dollars a month is huge for your own life but it's not huge for like bitcoin macro like trajectory the the most giant thing you can do is like change

as a person to level up your influence well that like i can hear any outsider listening to this like these people are crazy get on zero they're living on bitcoin but to your point like the more that are doing this showing the world hey i'm doing this it's working i'm increasing my quality of life increasing my stack at the same time become motivated to be more productive and increase my cash flow like this mindset has reoriented my my financial life in in extremely positive way and you just go out there with that confidence like i don't think it's going to zero and if i don't think it's going to zero i'm going to get on zero to correct to reap the the most benefit that i potentially can because i recognize this yes and and i would say like

like i operate my life as if bitcoin is going to a million dollars like i operate my life as if bitcoin's going to a million dollars and sometimes i catch myself thinking too small if bitcoin's going to a million dollars my capacity to take risks right now is bigger than I think it is. It's bigger than my brain tells me that it is. And that gap is what I mean by like leveling up. So whether it is, yes, holding more Bitcoin. And for a lot of people, for a lot of, yes,

for a lot of people, the number one way to take on more risk would be to hold more Bitcoin, which is the reason why I talk about, yeah, the medium savings bucket, the short-term savings bucket. For other people, for other people, the way to take on more risks would be to, like, would be to pause your DCA for six months and DCA into, like, building your marriage, buying a business, buying a house, taking six months off of work to, like, learn AI and, like, get a different job that pays more. Like, dude, we're at that point now, man, we're at the point of like, this, this is where we're at that point of needing some of the more rounded out people stuff than just simply a buy more Bitcoin, buy more Bitcoin, buy more Bitcoin. Because there are other things that the ROI will be higher. That's controversial. it is it is man it is no i mean i think your point what you're really saying is like the roi

of investing in yourself and taking the time to develop the necessary skills mindset probably first mindset then skills to get yourself on better financial footing is going to have an increased roi on the back end which will manifest likely manifest in more bitcoin as well yes uh i just like they said manifest i could go i could go go go like go i just think dude i just think that yeah like i think there's a world i think there's a world in the future where you telling you like the audience member has the ability to have more bitcoin than they do right now and then their linear dca trajectory has them on i i just do i don't think i don't think that linear dca is

the path for everyone and so whether it's in the short and there's a very real chance that then again yeah in the short term there's a very real chance that in the short term your fiat reserves are too this is brian harrington like you're there's a very real chance that in the short term your fiat reserves are too high relative to the amount of bitcoin savings you have so your ability to lump some more into bitcoin is higher i just want people to hear that so i'm not always about and then there's also a very real chance that your bitcoin savings are so high that your income that you're earning right now if you i'm just gonna i'm gonna go complete like uh heresy okay if there's a very real chance that your bitcoin savings are so high that if you took

your salary for one year and bought cash flowing real estate instead and replaced your salary that then you would be like fat fired on Bitcoin and real estate combined and you would be off to the races on like being the mayor of your town like

there's no but like if you just sit around twiddling your thumbs DCA on your like salary like for what like you dude you did it you already won like you won the game like it's time to take the victory lap it's a mindset it really is

and once you change the mindset like I've seen in my own life even when I started this podcast it was actually no when I did start I can go back to like I've said this story many times on the show but I was unemployed for like 18 months

between 2016 and the middle of 2017 I took a couple of like three month contract gigs in between them but for the Most part, I was unemployed and had to, and it was almost subconscious, like recognition that the cube life's not for me doing V lookups and Excel is not for me. I was trying to get jobs throughout it, but deep down inside, I was like, Bitcoin is what

I wanted to do. And in between half-ass attempts to get jobs at quote unquote, like tech firms or finance firms that i knew deep down i didn't want to do i was studying bitcoin and eventually got the confidence to write about bitcoin and throughout that period terrible time to be selling bitcoin but i did have bitcoin savings that was allowing me at least giving me some peace of mind some stability to not go completely crazy because i didn't have any money i had that savings i was able to tap into it and i think the long-term ramifications of having that sort of savings to to dip into and to to use to sustain myself while i was figuring this out in my mid-20s like has led

to me it was extremely high roi for me personally yes dude and my favorite part about that story is the like the amount the amount needed to feel secure at that time is is low relatively like relatively and the timing the timing again was relatively bad to be selling bad to be thinking about it and that's like what i i just do like i just i watch a lot of youtube like i watch a lot youtube and it's like that that's what the real estate people always say they're like oh every single time it's like oh it was a bad time it's a bad time it's a bad time and then eight years later six years later eight five years later like it all it works out it works out um and i just i want to hear that optimism yeah more more from bitcoiners and i want people to understand that

like it never, it, it's always going to feel, here's another thing actually we haven't talked about yet. Like you're never going to like feel ready to have kids. You're not going to feel ready to buy a house. You're not going to feel ready to quit your job and start a business. That's not real. That's not real. Feeling ready is not real. So there's no like tackle that, tackle that right now or move that you're gonna have to tackle that move that forward as fast as you can because million dollar bitcoin isn't gonna you isn't gonna make it easier to tackle that it's gonna be the same if not harder honestly if not harder like so you have to pull that forward and tackle it all right the kid the uh the children especially there's a big psyop out there

like i can't have kids because i'm not financially secure enough which may be true it may not be as financially secure as you want to be but i promise you at least this was my personal reaction maybe everybody doesn't have the same one but i was i've never been more motivated to be productive and increase my cash flow than I was after my first son was born like night and day difference from literally the day before to the day of his birth I was like oh my god I need to make sure this kid can eat and survive yeah personally I feel like everybody has that motivation whether or not they have the capacity and the agency and the willingness to go act on that that inherent urgency that that you feel yeah no definitely and i i think no i i feel that a lot too and i feel it

from a place of like i think and also then for the like the number one thing i want to i tweeted this talk about controversy like i'm way more motivated i'm way more motivated by proving to my sons that i know how to spend a bitcoin and put a dent in the world then i am on handing them like a stack with with no social proof that like i was effective at like changing the world and i think and i and i just think that's like like it's really hard for me to identify with the like, oh, like their generation is the most important thing to me, like passing that on. Like, no, like, you're like, right now is the most important thing to me. Like proving, proving that like I did something, like showing them that you, that you did something

I think is way more powerful than handing them the actual Bitcoins. yeah and you need to do the things if the bitcoin is going to be worth anything when you hand it to i think um i agree with that dude i agree with that like i think we have to do something i think because there's it's a competition like our bucket the bitcoin economy has to be more dynamic than the fiat economy like we talked about the financialization and the macroeconomic and all the stuff the zombie company is like all this we talk about we talk about a lot of stuff like our economy our productivity our what we have going on has to be more like more dynamic and it is a competition it's like the world dude the world is like a game of monopoly like and

bitcoiners have to own like things and own companies and own property like in order to secure the influence like the money the money matters the money matters and we have we have we're playing with pocket aces we're absolutely playing with pocket aces and now we have to like win the game yeah bitcoin is your path of financial freedom own it it is yeah improve it to everyone and tell everyone yeah that was really powerful because we had that call what on a friday afternoon two weeks ago and it's never like i've been in this content bitcoin content creator podcaster shout out to the bugle shout out to podconf for eight years now but like the just the way you put it on that call and you like ended the call with it it's like we need bitcoiners to

be like bitcoin is your path to financial freedom but many myself included have said that even that explicitly but i think the approach that the like personal finance gurus have the real estate gurus have with this is how you're going to get rich and just like own it and really send that memetic signaling to people to really trigger that action to like okay maybe i should take this more seriously is important and more powerful more powerful than having a large stack of bitcoin is knowing knowing that you could stack it all again if you had to like if you believe that about yourself like do you believe that about yourself that you could stack it all again if you had to or are your dumb friends actually right that you just got lucky like right you know

it's like that like we can't be like oh they're dumb i wasn't lucky and be like scared of leveling up our lives at the same time. I think that's why that hurts so much. I think that's why that, when they say that, that hurts so much because it actually, like, we actually kind of believe that about ourselves a little bit also. It's a tacit recognition. Like maybe I did get lucky. Dude. Yeah. Maybe I did get lucky. Wow. Maybe I did get lucky. Damn. I hope Bitcoin hits a million dollars so that I can like feel good about myself someday. Dude, it gets deep. It gets deep and if you have a large bitcoin savings you have to tackle that deepness like you have to tackle that deepness and you have to become the guy that can look people in the other face and

be like no like i'm telling you dude like bitcoin is better than fiat money it's like changed my life and it's like and i'm gonna go change the world like i'm gonna change the world off of like having this much money be the change you want to see in the world freaks you can do it again i think i don't think we're trying to beat our chest here but i think we're just trying to articulate from personal experience i mean it really does like that that i've told people that before like if i've lost it all i think i could stack it again and they think you're crazy and it's like no like i have that confidence that i can go out there absolutely and do it because i know how

important is to do it like god forbid something were to happen need to sell all my bitcoin don't think that's going to be the case but like i think having that that belief that you could go stack again and operating your life in a way that makes the potential to stack again uh the probability that you could hire is very important dude yeah 100 bitcoin like on a bitcoin standard in a world where there's a bitcoin standard the rising tide left all boats like the world is so good there's gonna be so much opportunity for everyone all the time because we're not gonna be siphoned off this is where all like all the doomsday stuff like is all like yeah it does suck that there's so much inefficiency in the world and all this stuff and they're like stealing from us and fiat money and

blah blah blah all that's true so when we kill all of that the world is going to be so much better and so much bigger that marty bet would be able to stack it all again because the business environment in that world the net richness of society like we will be living on mars we will have autonomous robots doing everything for us so all we have to do all day is enjoy our lives and like make money and make the world a better place like that's bringing okay okay so that's future right future and we love talking about the future love talking about the future pull all of that forward okay pull all of that forward maybe the number one thing you can do for your partner is hire a cleaner to come to your house twice a week once a week once every other week maybe

that's the number one thing you could do maybe there and that's where there's a higher roi on having a house cleaner than on continuing on your linear dca and that's going to create a household where your partner trusts you so much they are going to go out and start a business and end up with more bitcoin than you would have just dca and being scared of spending money on a house cleaner small steps freaks take them the uh and the opportunity with ai like i'm looking at this convergence of ai and bitcoin and just ai generally what it's done for our business at tftc and i've just been playing with the models and having similar conversations that you are and just different projects and diving down rabbit holes there's so much that is unlocked

in terms of like the ability to go out and build things had never been easier yeah absolutely brian we need to we can't have like four years between this recording and the next one no we'll be a million dollar by then correct no dude let's hold ourselves accountable let's hold ourselves accountable and keep meeting up and yeah fix the money fix the world yeah the uh you know i don't say you get a lot of hate a lot of people push back like oh he's talking crazy but i would urge anybody who's listening to this um seriously consider it like i think changing the mindset is very important and very powerful once you do it effectively yeah yeah come to my come to my youtube comment comment on today's video on like how you're doing it like because it's not tell

tell me like people's strategies and stuff how are you using fold how are you incorporating bitcoin into personal finances how are you thinking about leveling up like in other areas i i want to know because there are there are uh a lot of people the the streams of messages are beginning to increase yeah let us know and gender like seriously if you do that you comment respond on x whatever like people see that it gives them confidence and you start start the uh the momentum in the right direction i think the momentum's headed in the right direction it's never been easier to live on a bitcoin standard to incorporate bitcoin into your life to take a step back and think about this strategically leverage the tools that exist and operate during this

transitionary period um smartly i can't think of a meticulously smartly with intention if you will i think that's the best way to put it 100 all right anything else we should leave the freaks with here i'd say guys yeah just like like and comment and share the video um yeah hit us up message me we're gonna win peace and love freaks freaks thank you for listening to the show i hope you liked it if you did like it please make sure you subscribe rate review the show it helps us out a lot and also if you like these conversations i've come to realize that many people listen to the podcast they don't know we have another sort of layer of this media company we have the newsletter the bitcoin brief go to tftc.io make sure you subscribe there a lot of the topics that

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