TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #633: Stack Sats, Build Products, Ignore the Noise with NVK

Episode Date: June 25, 2025

Marty sits down with NVK, CEO of Coinkite, to discuss Bitcoin's role as digital gold for the wealthy, the reality that base layer Bitcoin isn't for everyone, the current state of Bitcoin development including covenant proposals, AI's transformative impact on society and education, and why people need to build businesses instead of complaining online. NVK on Twitter: https://x.com/nvk NVK on Nostr: https://primal.net/nvk STACK SATS hat: https://tftcmerch.io/ Our newsletter: https://www.tftc.io/bitcoin-brief/ TFTC Elite (Ad-free & Discord): https://www.tftc.io/#/portal/signup/ Discord: https://discord.gg/VJ2dABShBz Opportunity Cost Extension: https://www.opportunitycost.app/ Shoutout to our sponsors: Coinkite https://coinkite.com Unchained https://unchained.com/tftc/ Join the TFTC Movement: Main YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/c/TFTC21/videos Clips YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUQcW3jxfQfEUS8kqR5pJtQ Website https://tftc.io/ Newsletter tftc.io/bitcoin-brief/ Twitter https://twitter.com/tftc21 Instagram https://www.instagram.com/tftc.io/ Nostr https://primal.net/tftc Follow Marty Bent: Twitter https://twitter.com/martybent Nostr https://primal.net/martybent Newsletter https://tftc.io/martys-bent/ Podcast https://www.tftc.io/tag/podcasts/

you've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free if you talk about a fed just gone nuts all all the central banks going nuts so it's all acting like safe haven i believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency bitcoin wins in the world of fiat currencies bitcoin is the victor i mean And that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin. If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. Thank you, from me. Which device would you want to be the placeholder for your video?

The Q. The Q. The Q with the smiley face. It is a... The moon guy. It is an incredible product. It's my favorite. My favorite of your products that you've launched.

My daily driver. Playing around with it. And you guys just launched some awesome features, too. Yeah, I do enjoy it. The queue is my preferred. It's nice to have the keyboard. Well, now with, like, Cove Wallet, we're live, by the way. Now with, like, Cove Wallet, making it easy to have, like, a watch-only version

where you can spend from it, too, if you have the queue. Yeah, I mean, Cove is super cool. I mean, why don't we, why don't we, uh, it's like, uh, it's a, it's a first project is based on BDK, uh, works with any hardware wallet that supports PSPT, uh, not, not just cold card in top center. It's like, you know, it's, it's a, it's open standards. Um, and it's, and it's super ultra noob friendly, uh, on that one iPhone. And I think Praveen is doing well and right soon, too.

It was much needed. We need a free open source, vendor agnostic, good, easy to use phone wallet. Yeah, especially now. I mean, what are your thoughts on this trend, this cycle of treasury companies, ETFs, people that are coming into Bitcoin for the first time? and even some people that have been in it for a long time either getting direct exposure proxy exposure to bitcoin via these paper products these ious or in some cases even selling a part of their bitcoin stack to buy the etf are we are we losing sovereign bitcoin in front of our eyes so i think the uncomfortable truth is that like base layer bitcoin is not for everyone like there is not

enough sats like the math is just doesn't add up there is just was it 2.1 quadrillion sats and but the reality is like you know the world's wealth is owned by you know a basis point of the population and if we do 10x improvement in the world's wealth distribution which i believe bitcoin does you know it's still one percent you know so you know and then when you when you divide the 2.1 quadrillion sats you know and you and you make them be you know owned by just one percent of the world's population um then you're still like there's just not enough stats for everybody to have on chain so i think i think the ephemeral grandma or or you want to call the proverbial grandmother the coiner it's just like you know it's just bullshit um the the reality is like

bitcoin on chain uh cypherpunk bitcoin is is uh is for very few uh it's a niche you know it's still a gigantic market but it's still a niche um and uh the the walmart sort of part of the market the 80 of the market uh they're not going to use harder wallets they're they're going to just you know have some shared sats lightning sats cashew sats on on great apps uh that may be custodial or semi-custodial or you know they're they're going to have different trade-offs So, you know, I think it's very misguided for us to sort of like only drive self-custody product development based on grammar, right? um it's you know when i you know i've been doing this for over a decade and whenever i onboard people it's like less and less people have enough bitcoin for me to advise buying my product like

you know it's just like hey you know amazing you bought a thousand bucks worth of btc like here's a great phone wallet you know stamp your your seat on on metal but you don't even need a heart of all it just just put that somewhere else and and move on in your life right uh if you're planning to put another you know like a few more thousand dollars and maybe look into a heart of all it but realistically speaking you know that's not happening and and retail uh like like first first uh touch retail when they come to because they come to crypto right they don't come to bitcoin like the the real true new retail out there uh they they buy you know they're gonna buy some uh micro strategy they're gonna buy some uh etf whatever crap you know like uh uh equity

based bitcoin based equity on on their you know carl schwab account um that that is the majority of the the big part of the funnel and unlike how it used to be where they came from coinbase they could just take self-custody you know you can't take self-custody of carl schwab micro strategy shares so for now there's some products coming for that but um you know it's it's a different path i think i think the people who are going to self-custody they they are much committed much more committed uh cohort um and uh you know great business but it's not the walmart 80 cohort of the market well that in mind like focusing on the hardcore users who do want to self-custody as it stands today with the proliferation of upgrades to your products

upgrades at the sort of wallet software level with things like miniscript what is the optimal setup in your mind for somebody looking to secure material amount of bitcoin for the long term i i think i think it's like a you know it's kind of like how i put in that bitcoin security.org it's it's a progressive thing i think people first should download something like cove you know set up a seed on cove learn how to to store that you know play around you know like spend a few thousand bucks in bitcoin trying to send and receive just get comfortable right um and then from there you go like okay now i'm comfortable with this this concept you know maybe maybe you set up a cold card with uh with a passphrase right or just

even single sig if that's where you're at and and then you know as you stack more coin and as you get more comfortable with the technology you're playing with then then maybe you go to multi-sig you know maybe maybe you find collaborative multi-sig like uh there's a lot of products for that like nunchuck or unchained or casa or um uh keeper and uh and then there is rob's uh anchor watch coming to with some self custody stuff right it's there is a lot of options in the market but i think nothing in this in this space can replace the the responsibility of learning what what the fuck you're doing because otherwise you're gonna get racked it doesn't matter right like you know you either outsource your agency to a third trusted third party right

that be you know pubco thing or um or or you do it yourself and you understand what are you doing like i i don't think it's prudent and honest to have to just tell people yeah bitcoin is like it's like ultra easy and you don't have to learn anything just go here buy this thing and go right like no like you have to learn and if you're not willing to learn you're gonna lose it Yeah. And so, do you think these proxy exposure products like the ETFs and these equities now are actually good for the 80%? No. No. Like, I mean, you know, I run bitcointreasuries.net and, you know, it is in my interest to pump the equities, but definitely no. um the the equities are amazing for all the entities that cannot buy bitcoin right so you know if you're a pension fund right like you can't just go and you know like market buy

you know a billion dollars worth of bitcoin and stick it in your code card right like you have all kinds of like governance rules and and treasury rules and you know all kinds of bullshit So that's what those products are for. Or you have treasury strategies in some companies that they require that the asset produces some yield. The yield is you, sure, but it doesn't matter. So that's why Saylor goes and creates all those extra products that make absolutely no sense to beckwiner you know people always like make fun give him shit for it but you know reality is um sorry they decided to blow the leaves around the house today we're not picking it up so you're good okay uh so he's just running around closing some windows

indoors um so yeah so like you know sailor is producing what the market is is creating what the market is sort of demanding right uh and i can't can't fault like you know you're being smart and creating those products but those products are are for a very specific buyer right they're not for the dude buying you know 100 bucks worth of bitcoin um and and i think right now the biggest issue is the the folks that are coming in in this last year or two you know they're they're they're looking at bitcoiners who made you know a thousand x on their investment and they want their thousand x too so so they're gonna like because they don't understand bitcoin right so so they're gonna like either go shitcoin which is a lot less these days and what they do is they go equities right so they

go like okay hey you know like the sailor thing you might do 100x bitcoin right um and that's That's what we're looking for. I mean, like, look at MetaPlanet. They did a thousand X or something, right? And that's what people are trying to do, the usual full-on meaning of the word speculation, you know, versus, you know, trying to just find sovereignty, right? I mean, I talk a lot to, like, family offices

and people who have serious money, But they're not like they're trying to not lose their money. Right. They already made the family already made all their money. It's just like I just don't want to lose it. So in the last the next 100 years. So, you know, entities like that, they do understand the value of like, you know, stuffing gold in a vault in Switzerland. Right. And so they are like buying serious amounts of Bitcoin, putting in code cards in collaborative multi-sig or multi-sig between multiple signers of the family or whatever, and then stuffing those in vaults. And, you know, so there is that part of the market. It's a very broad market. Like there's a lot of different people trying to achieve different things. and you know i think just shitting on people trying to do different things on twitter is kind of counterproductive what do you mean like coming at the treasury strategies because i'll admit like

looking at the treasury strategies a lot of people that i respect and i like and i'm friends with are getting into that game and just the pattern recognition of having been in this market for 12 years now is beginning to the alarm bells are beginning to go off you're like this sounds too good to be true off the bat and i just name names marty name names i'm just kidding i'm just pulling odell it just seemed it seems too good to be true for me and who knows maybe there i mean i think pierre has done a good job to help me sort of check my priors and there is some speculative attack fiat arbitrage perspective in nature to all this that i could see working in the long run

governments this is absolutely valuable i mean like so for example i had you know like like any person who started their life before bitcoin existed right like i had a trading account with like equities in it and other all kinds of crap in it um and you know there is that for companies there is that for personal there is that for tax savings free account whatever right I already have like most exposure in my portfolio anyways so like you know did I buy a bunch of MSDR

make a bunch of money on it absolutely like you know there was no tax advantage it was actually going to be very disadvantageous to be disadvantageous oh my god I'm disadvantageous

to to not do that right So, you should maximize your income while minimizing risk and trying to have the most amount of exposure to Bitcoin as you can. Like, you know, it's a balance. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. And I'm not trying to knock any of the treasury strategies. I'm just worried.

The copycats are what I worry about. I mean, it does feel bubbly, right? Like, it feels a little bubbly. um but you know that's that's the nature of these things you know it's so yeah it's it's especially uh interesting that this is going on right now because i think the last week has proven that the value prop for bitcoin like especially if you're holding a good amount of it has never been stronger and you should secure it probably like what what happened yesterday in Iran with that bank getting cyberattacked and they

literally just erased all the account records of anybody using that bank. So those people woke up and literally don't have their money, their money, money gone. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, exactly. Like I think we, you know, it's, it's the, just gotta be smart about it. You gotta, you know, it doesn't. So, see, this is the thing. Even people who are like, you know, full APE equities, they still like to have some gold bars, right, in the bank. Like, you know, it's very rare that you have somebody that doesn't have a bit of money, that doesn't have some physical gold in a vault and some physical cash, right?

So you could dematerialize those things, to use the fiat people words, and make those into Bitcoin. And now you have access to liquid asset that is available to you in any part of the planet in case you need it, even if you rather be on equities. um you know bitcoin is the best thing that you have in order to be uh operational in any world event because you know realistically speaking aside from the doomers they you know world war three is always about to happen but it then it doesn't the the thing is like you know you could have like even in even in like developed countries like you could have a year or two of of like being very liquid right on whatever you have so having that btc might might be the difference between you having like a very comfortable existence during the year or two or not so uh you know

buy bitcoin put in a cold card and move on with your life so freaks this rip of tftc was brought to you by our good friends at coin kite they make the cold card queue my favorite hardware wallet the most secure hardware wallet on the market as you can see it's got the blackberry form factor full keyboard it's got two secure enclaves you create your private public keys offline the device never has to go online never does go online so you keep your bitcoin secure if you have your bitcoin on exchanges and you're looking to get it off secure it in the best way possible pick up a cold card queue go to coin kite.com find the cold card queue use the code tftc for five percent off if you're a power user of bitcoin like i am if you're running a business on a bitcoin standard

if you're just a bitcoin or wants to secure your bitcoin get the most secure hardware wallet on the market go get the cold card queue it's a beautiful thing so freaks guess what we launched a browser extension it's called opportunity cost and it helps you see the true cost of everything in bitcoin convert prices to bitcoin as you browse the web opportunity cost automatically displays fiat prices in bitcoin or sats helping you think in a bitcoin standard it works on amazon zillow x your bank account quickbooks you can convert everything to bitcoin it's really cool it's also 100 open source mit license we don't collect any data all of the conversions happen in your browser on your local device it's a great way to recalibrate your life and begin thinking in

sats go check it out at opportunitycost.app that's opportunitycost.app despite everything going on with World War III fears, which I agree with you. I don't think they're going to materialize. Nothing ever happens. I'm extremely optimistic. I know you've been playing around with this, and we've talked about it on the side, but I could see a massive productivity jump.

I mean, we're already seeing it with AI, but I think the time to build stuff has never been more exciting. I've been talking about it on the show. I vibe-coded a little app, got somebody to finish it. We launched it. It's working. It's cool. we've got over 2 000 users already it's like oh i think i was able to do that in an afternoon and

then pass it off a developer who spent probably like less than 10 hours on it and boom app app created and when you think of how fast the ai stuff is progressing specifically um i'm just incredibly optimistic about just people building cool things over the next few years yeah it is it is remarkable what you can achieve now right um with with very little sort of like knowledge or input um you know the bots do a lot for you but again it's like the bots are amazing they you know say the next five years they're gonna replace you know maybe 30 40 percent of of the, you know, of the, of the, the middle of the curve is a middle out of the bell curve here that gets replaced. You know, like I, at least that's my framework for it. It's like, you know,

you have the, the, the people who are just sort of like, uh, you know, Excel jockeys and, you know, and, uh, the middle management, you know, all the people who are in the middle of the curve, um, you know, because the, the people who are on the, on the, on the right of the curve, you know it's it's a wait is the rate yeah the right to the curve is the high iq right so the right to the curve you know like you know like those things are very hard to replace it's very hard to do the last 10 of the knowledge of of the specialty whatever you're doing right um that's gonna take like forever you know and then the left of the curve they're cheap it's like super cheap labor super cheap specialized super super labor based things

mechanical things right like things that that are still cheaper to do by people than to do by machine like the way i like to think about it it's like when you have strikes like you know in large companies and then what the company does is they raise employee salaries to to meet the demands of the union temporarily and then they just you know because the market demands it that they make it cheaper don't pass the cost the cost of the customer like they will slowly automate whatever makes economical sense right like look at mcdonald's you know there is one person serving 100 people yeah you know it's just screens now so do you think it's gonna be obviously it's gonna be massively disruptive but do you think it makes economies better off absolutely you know everything

gets better like this whole thing is is like extremely amazing for humanity right um you like why wouldn't it get better like it's just just look at uh you know like isn't it better to be able to like ask chat to PT what what's this weird sort of lesion on your kid's leg instead of having to wait for a doctor consultation right like if you're a parent you know right like I mean it doesn't mean you still don't use the doctor but like you know you go you ask the AI like you know it's it's a you already maybe didn't make a mistake and rubbing the wrong cream and like giving your kid like you know like a worst outcome um it's uh and and that sort of like you know like uh projects over like everything uh you know like lawyers like

you know i i used to just like think of things go to the lawyers and ask them stuff right like immediately lots of emails and little questions that costed me a lot of money and now i just sort of like ask chat to beat you a bunch of shit and then like when i'm ready i just go and ask the lawyers like you know like to sort of validate or or like show me where it's wrong and i don't hide it it's like look this is what chat gbt says is it right no i've done this with employment contracts and i have a lawyer who gets it so that's what i exactly what i did i hired somebody in the last six months to create an employment contract on chat gbt and then hand it to the lawyer he made a couple of red lines and changed some some words but it took like a half an hour

to be like yeah this is good you can send it it is amazing like i mean the amount of like just just contract review it is insane right um yeah no it's a it's a brave new world it's like hard to not be excited about it yeah how do you think ai progresses in terms of like the monoliths like open ai google meta anthropic sort of controlling everything versus open source models and self hosted models winning it's it's it's a mix right like there's we're so early it's impossible to know what's the winning strategy like you know like look like netscape still not it's not around anymore right that was the first usable browser um you know internet explorer only exists in corporate you know chrome sort of took over you know google used to be the hottest thing on earth

Like, they can barely sell ads now because people are not on Google anymore. They ask chat to PT. So Bing now sells, is one of the biggest suppliers of search API, right? So a lot of this AI chat companies are using Bing as the backend for search. It's going to be very disruptive, impossible to tell what's winning, what's not winning, and what's going to look like, you know, even in a year from now. Do you recommend vibe coding for Bitcoin, Bitcoin apps? Absolutely not.

Like, it's amazing, you know, like you want to make a cool little website that displays something interesting, right? That sort of give you, like, more informational kind of functionality than, yeah, sure, and have fun with it. but like really like it's the same it's very similar like to ask if you trust chat to pt to do open heart surgery on you already using a robot dog we're not there yet we'll get there we'll absolutely get there we're just not there yet yeah i mean that was a meme a few weeks ago or probably like a month ago at this point with the op return battle there are many people out there saying somebody has to vibe code a new bitcoin implementation so we can transition away from core yeah that's retarded um yeah i mean i completely agree well i mean what i mean on that

subject like obviously a lot of a lot of contention in the bitcoin development world over the last few months whether it's op return um obviously james o'byrne and i believe you were signatory on the letter for op ctv and uh check sig from stack what are your views on the state of bitcoin protocol development and the conversation around it and the social i'm gonna i'm gonna avoid getting in trouble by minimizing my opinions on this but um no we need to hear them all you get in trouble no like okay so we i i think we're gonna need some form of covenants uh i think we're gonna be way better served by having vaults that are on chain spending policies uh just just very grug brain thinking and sort of like just

you know thinking of a thousand years from now family still chipping away from the pile So it's like you, you know, like right now we have to depend on hardware, right? So like the cold card has, say, for example, spending policies, right? With the cosine feature. But, you know, you're still sort of like limited to the limits of the hardware itself, right? So, you know, is it extremely secure? Yes. But is it as secure as being enforced by Bitcoin itself?

No, right? So say, for example, we get covenants in. I would be able to create, like, I can create the keys on the code card, right? Because that's what you want. And then I can have the script policy of the vault, something that is enforced by Bitcoin itself. So, you know, that specific vault doesn't allow you to spend more than, you know, say, like, you know, a million sets a day, right? So if you find yourself in a conundrum, like, there is nothing that can be done. That's the policy, right?

Maybe you do have a nuclear code feed somewhere else that is buried under a mountain that allows you to withdraw from the vault, like the whole amount. And you could also make it so that the withdrawal is to another halt. So there's many ways to skin this cat. It's just like it gives us a much bigger design space with on-chain enforcement of rules. That's the key. That also helps people share UTXOs better for Lightning, for all kinds of other weird shit out there that will help bank the world. it's uh you know is it a need to have though yeah not quite so you know maybe that's the task to see if it gets you know like uh developed further and merged eventually

but um it is a very very nice to have and if more people start getting robbed maybe it becomes a need to have yeah that's that's what was going to be my question what is something that would make it a need to have and to your point more people getting robbed or i like the way james position op vault which i think a lot of the functionality that op vault um designed would be capable with ctv as well which is like we need to get to a point where exchanges cannot be hacked essentially exchanges become unhackable if you have the correct devops team creating structured vaults that that make it impossible to actually steal bitcoin um from an exchange yeah then the other argument is like something like arc if that gets product market fit

and hits a certain scaling threshold that could be increased with something like covenants that could be interesting on the payment side um and the scriptability side off-chain scripting but i i i think it's something that i would like to see as a bitcoiner if somebody runs a company with a bitcoin treasury um and would like those spending conditions baked into the protocol level and i worry that yeah i think the op return discussion and just how people are are viewing bitcoin core as it stands today prevents any meaningful discussion around covenants and check sig from stack moving forward like matt's convinced we'll never have another soft fork again i'm like i don't know about that i think i think

we should have one um and then you have the other misconceptions well we're gonna need one there is one we have to fix the win the unix time code so that one is not optional that's a hard fork though yeah that's a hard fork yeah i mean personally hard fork everything i hate this whole soft fork business and this whole speedy trial business it's like you know as mr hodo is a proponent of that it's like bring back hard forks as the correct way of of uh of handling the network uh people need to grow a pair and just accept that the hard forks are the way to go but um yeah it's it's important yeah it's uh and i think another sort of misunderstanding people look at segwit and taproot and see the unforeseen consequences or second order effects of implementing

both of those with the emergence of inscriptions and ordinals and think we can't do another soft fork that changes bitcoin because who knows exactly what it will enable and if somebody's non-technical i i can see that point i've made that point in the past but how do you get the non-technical person like over that hump of understanding that something like op ctv or check sake they won't it's a much different sort of upgrade to bitcoin no it's just you won't you won't carry the average person along with any of this stuff it's it's gonna be you know some marketing thing like no different than top route everybody just went along with it it's like look everybody has some green dot on there or was orange dot whatever it was i can't remember anymore

but you know like uh they they see the trend forming and then they follow right the majority we just are just followers which is very reasonable position people have better shit to do their lives than be arguing about Bitcoin opcodes. But yeah, what really matters is you have to get the miners along, you have to get the big economic actors along, especially the people who validate a lot of transactions, right? Like exchanges and things like that. And that's it. That's enough.

yeah that's another sort of uncomfortable part of the conversation everybody's spinning up knots nodes moving away from core the whole concept of like economic nodes which i think towards the end of the segway battles became clear to people but i think since 2017 people have forgotten about that like unless you're actually validating transactions and moving transactions through nodes? What is the impact of your influence on protocol? I mean, the block increase in the SegWit discount was a terrible thing,

but it was the thing that didn't split the network, right? That was the compromise. And I think a lot of people didn't realize that the block was being raised, the block size. The weight. Block weight. No, the block size, too. we you know we made it a lot bigger um the so so you know it's again it's you know as as a network

grows uh the more watered down and the more sort of like uh compromise things you have to do right because you have more people to please so that that's maybe maybe that's why it doesn't change anymore except for the time code the unix issue um except for that like maybe it doesn't change anymore and and then you're gonna see a lot more of this sort of like the contentions going to these marginal things like you know like the the limit of the up return all the soft things that don't require consensus right um you know and these things happen on github which has thermal moderation tools and i think it was extremely mismanaged how it was handled and and i just caused more grief and you know who knows maybe we get more more core versions out there that

just have different sets of of defaults uh i don't know man it's uh i think i think it sucks but like i think people really sort of wasting too much of their energy and stuff i agree there do you think there's any credence to the thought that decisions one way or the other particularly around op return are existential to the protocol in the long run so you can look at this in different ways um and so people already can do all those things right like i mean that that needs to be said like you know good luck you know mara will take your money and mine whatever garbage you want to stick on chain you know they'll figure out a way to stick it in and they'll do it so it's already been true that people do non-standard transactions and get

them mine right um so so there is that um and then you know the all the jpeggers and all that shit like i mean you know that stuff always gets economically priced out so i'm not too concerned about that uh the op return is a better place to put it versus on say bear to ptsh or something like that because you can't prune out however and i'll like i i highly like recommend people just try to run a bitcoin node okay with index on so that means truly a full node right not pruned uh on a laptop like that's that's almost a terabyte worth of data right like that's that's a huge fucking problem uh you know you cannot get a macbook air from apple with more than two terabytes like you just can't um so you know but then you go into the conversation of like hey you

know how many people really need to run a node for their self-validation because they're not really fucking like holding real bitcoin anyways like this conversation is very sort of broad there's a lot of different people out there um but uh you know we should really be having this core working on things that the market needs versus what the engineers want that's my personal and what do you think the market needs right now you know we need we need to be able to index transactions properly on core like we do with electrum server instead of you know wasting time on op return discussions like i shouldn't need an electrum server to do like appropriately performant block search for transactions as a business right you should be on core core should

should have like you know better ways for you to to time uh broadcast of transactions um you know there's a bunch of stuff you know like i mean like the wallet on core is practically like just like experimental for the engineers to to keep on working on core but like nobody uses core as the actual gui wallet like it's absolutely unusable um and you know there's a lot of stuff like that but there is a lot of progress too i mean there's a of good people doing good work it's a massive piece of software you know satoshi left practically a dump worth of code uh you know the core the cold quality was like atrocious um you know so there's a lot to fix and clean um you know there was like unfinished like poker

inside the original Satoshi client. Like, you know, there was like a lot of weird shit in there. And, you know, it's a lot of work to make it work. And it's voluntary work. It's, you know, thankless work. There's a lot of

money now for core development, which is a good thing and bad thing. But yeah, it's just no good answers, right? Like, no perfect answer. It's just It's just a massive project that holds a lot of money for a lot of different people who have different needs. Yeah. Have you read Arbedout's book that he just released, Something More Profound? I haven't yet, no.

It's really interesting. I'm a big fan of Arbedout. Yeah. Go find Something More Profound, Arbedout, A-R-B-E-D-O-U-T, on Twitter. You'll find him. I'm sure you can find a link to the book. But he basically goes through the history of the protocol development of the Internet and the different protocols that make up the Internet. And it's really interesting some of the parallels that exist between the build out of the Internet stack and the Bitcoin stack. I'm only about halfway through now. But I think if you're trying to approach a better understanding of Bitcoin protocol development and layer development, this is a great read.

Yeah, it's hard, man. And the internet's not even decentralized anymore, right? And email, you can't even run email anymore yourself. The tendency towards centralization is just natural for any network, right? Because it's a lot more efficient. So Bitcoin working the way it does, it's already remarkable as it is. Is Bitcoin's next parabolic move already starting? Two of the strongest historical indicators, global M2 liquidity and the copper to gold ratio, are flashing green again.

Unchained and tech dev break it all down in the new report, Bitcoin's next parabolic move. Could liquidity lead the way? If you care about the macro forces shaping Bitcoin's trajectory, now's the time to pay attention. Visit unchained.com slash tftc to read the full report. That's unchained.com slash tftc. What's your focus at CoinCite right now? What are you excited about in the coming months? We are trying to create more features for the people who actually use Bitcoin.

It's like the key teleport stuff, the cosign, the spending policies features. doing like a lot of work in that environment uh because you know it's it's that's what people really need right and it's people love to talk about you know some random shit that people need like buy from an app and you know like uh put it straight into the wallet and things like that but then when people actually have bitcoin in their heart of wallets like how can we help them protect themselves and you know be digital nomads or you know like so much is not really fought through in a lot of the interactions with their hardware so we're sort of like putting a lot of effort into that well let's dissect key teleport because i think it's one of the coolest features

any hardware wallet has ever ever released so essentially like the the goal was let's say you have a counterparty or somebody trying to help and they're not near you right um they you need to help them set up a cold card with a seed or you have a work private it doesn't have to be a seed could be a private key as well um or ssh key or something you need to send it to them across, you know, the ocean, the other country where they are in. And you can't trust the computer with secrets anymore,

like at all. You can barely have SSH keys on them. You shouldn't. You can't trust your phone with secrets either, right? Those two devices are essentially assumed owned. And how do you send them a secret, right? Like if the stack is compromised, the clients are compromised, like how do you do it, right? So starting with the premise that the cold card is not compromised, right,

that you have your device and you know it's not compromised because your money is still there. So, you know, you want to send the secret to somebody else. So we created a little protocol that works over either video call or NFC tab. and essentially you scan a QR from the receiver and then we create a tunnel and we can send the person any secrets from your cold card.

And it could be a password from a password manager inside a cold card. It could be a secure note. It could be a seed. It could be a BP85 seed that you're trying to set up somebody else,

like anything really. And it's very, very easy to do. Yeah. no just the thought of being able to hop on a video call with somebody on an insecure device and know that you can make this sort of this transport this teleport via the hardware wallet is extremely cypherpunk and extremely cool the other the other cool feature um that i really like is the uh it's like the dummy the dummy pen to completely wipe the wallet if you're ever in a Yeah, and it's so funny to me that it took so long for this market to see it.

I mean, I think we're still the only company that does it. But it's like in the vault, like physical, like safe boxes, right? Safe industry and bank branch sort of safe door business. There's always been this idea of duress, right? And so, like, how do you de-risk it, right? Well, first, you know, you do, like, time of the day that you can open it, right? Like, we can't do that because we don't have a clock on the cold card. But this idea that's like, okay, you can't open the bank vault at night.

Like, it doesn't matter if you have the PIN, right? So, they do that. So, what we do is try to copy some of that stuff in the limitations that we have, right? So you can create an amount of pins, and the pins can do different things. So you can have a pin that wipes the device. You can have a pin that bricks the device. You can have a pin that sets a timer to the device. So, you know, you can show that, like, the device needs –

it won't let you log in for another four hours, right? You can have a delta pin that hides your passwords. so maybe you have a multi-sig and you don't care if they take the seed but you want to hide your passwords that you had hidden in there right um we try to create like a very large design space for the trick pins so that it's not obvious what's going on with that specific target yeah i mean this is massive like a use case like going through a security at an airport have your cold card on you you're trying to get out out of a country or you're just simply moving between cities here in the united states or anywhere else and tsa pulls you aside

like what is this you can just open it put in a dummy dummy pin yes completely wipe the device and as long as you have your backups you're fine exactly um it's like the device is not the final a rast place for the seed, right? Like the seed should be in metal somewhere, you know, very difficult to get to, you know, and if that has an extra passphrase in metal somewhere else, if it's geographically distributed multi-sig, whatever.

But like, you have to look at a hardware wallet. It's sort of like the operational side of the seed, right? It's like, it's what do you use to sign and to store it while you need access to it, right? But it's not the backup, you know, and the backup needs to be physical because you just never know, right? You shouldn't use servers as co-signers if you don't have access to signing the money out to the other server, right? Because servers go away. The internet goes away.

You know, there's a multitude of risk scenarios there where, you know, your ultimate place is really that metal because that metal doesn't burn at the house, right? The metal doesn't go away when a company goes out of business. And you can just load that seed into a new vendor, HarderWallet. You know, if cold card didn't exist anymore, you can just do that, right? You can just load that seed into some other HarderWallet. It's a super important thing. Completely agree. My camera just changed, so excuse me.

No, it is really important. And then not only that, it's I think optionality is just very important, particularly for the hardcore Bitcoiner. And that's what I'm curious, too, because you mentioned like servers and that's been a big topic of discussion, like proof of reserves, a micro strategy. Everybody custodying their their treasury allocation, either with a combination of Coinbase and Fidelity or somebody else. And I really would love to see like companies not rolling their own stack, but using products like cold card to do multisig or to actually custody their own Bitcoin. And obviously, there's some regulatory hurdles and compliance things that people can bet you about. But I think in the long run, it's not good to be sending millions of Bitcoin to Coinbase to solve these problems. Yeah, funny enough, I mean, there is already quite a few qualified custodians that do support and use cold card, right?

Like, you know, as part of the signing quorum. i think another part of this is that like there is very little advantage in being public about your custody strategy right because you're just incurring more risk so i completely understand companies not wanting to do things like that there is an interesting standard i forget the name now uh to do some version of proof of reserves where it doesn't really dock the utxos which is kind of nice. I mean, is it as good as doxing the UTXOs? Absolutely not, but, you know, it has trade-offs.

But still, like, it is an inch forward, right? But the thing is, I mean, like, you saw what happened to MicroStrategy, right? Like, the coins got all doxed. So, it's, I mean, assuming, yeah, assuming that they're correct, I mean, you know, it's there. Remember, right, like, you know, even though Enron did happen,

And, you know, the chances of a public-traded company to be, like, you know, selling the asset that they claim to have, like, everybody goes to jail, right? Like, if they get caught. I mean, they might not get caught for a while. They might be able to, you know, maybe it's a gap, like it's a small tranche of whatever they have. But, you know, it is serious crime, you know? And if the accountants are in it, which happens with Enron, it's even more jailed, right? I don't think, you know, like it's in everybody's interest to do shit like that. But, you know, it does happen.

So, like, you know, there is risk. Again, it's like you're holding an equity. There is operational risk, management risk, you know, and a bunch of other risk. So holding Bitcoin is better yourself. but you know what are your thoughts on like products that like er let me phrase this another way like bitcoin is boring i think uh we already talked about like covenants and checksake from stack and other potential hard forks or soft forks that we would want but is there a possibility in your mind that like we don't need that much more from a product

standpoint outside of maybe better payments wallets and things like that the point i'm trying to make is like are we there yet yeah like do we just need to integrate bitcoin into more sort of financial products and it's not really on the technical side it's just creating structures to stuff bitcoin into and you know it's funny right like aside from twitter where you know everybody has something new to sell and they're claiming that that solves all the problems uh like we we you know we're kind of we're obsessed with our customers and and like the thing that we do is you know we often go in dms and ask so like we're working on the firmware or working on new heart or whatever like what else can we change on a cold card right like how can we make

your life better right like and people normally just answer like that it's pretty fine i mean like you know i wish it was prettier i wish it was this like you know like basic stuff but like i i think that we we are in a pretty good place when it comes to like harder wallet self-custody like you know people love to shit on seeds so they can sell their new shiny new thing but like it fucking works right i mean like you put that metal somewhere where you normally put your gold And, you know, for most people, that's going to be incredibly life-changing good. And then, you know, with, like, Lightning was shit. Like, and it's a lot better now.

And, you know, it's improving a lot. And it's starting to become, like, actually fully usable. I mean, like, I've been to countries where everybody takes certain kinds of payments that you can just do via Lightning. And then you can just use it everywhere. So it's working, right? And now we have like payment terminals accepting Lightning without the merchant even caring. So it's a time thing. Like Bitcoin is just so good that like it's so boring that like we don't need much more.

We just need to be patient and, you know, like let Fiat go out the door. Where, I mean, having been in this for quite a while now. Are you pleasantly surprised with where Bitcoin is? Are you disappointed? Is it just exactly where you thought it would be at this point in time? I've never been this optimistic in my life. I mean, like, it's insane. Like for people that maybe haven't been around, like Moon, the meme going to the moon with Bitcoin price was $1,000. okay like the the idea that bitcoin was even going to cross a thousand dollars without everybody going to jail was like absurd like it was completely absurd that we were going to even cross a thousand dollars okay uh except for a few insane people good on them for thinking that bitcoin was going to get over a thousand dollars for sure it's like it's insane and that we're a

hundred thousand dollars per coin like it is a hundred thousand times more than a dollar in 15 years like it is mind-boggling insane right so that everything is working according to plan the network works the the number is going up you know like and and the more people that are clever come in they're going to create bubbles and they're going to crash the price and that's normal and that's how it happens right i mean when you look at weimar you know versus gold the weimar mark versus gold you know it was extremely volatile uh it's not like just like this beautiful straight line up right like it's gonna be very choppy um and but but things are going man like it's it's insane that he can you can transfer a billion dollars without permission

in any country on earth like you know like in just 15 years like it's insane yeah i completely agree and there's like all the people out there complaining about price suppression it's like we literally just hit a new all-time high two weeks ago or last month whenever that was it's like and people and to your point earlier people want the thousand x they expect it to go up to a million dollars very quickly but that's another thing people really don't understand like at a two trillion dollar market cap like it's way you need a ton of money to come into the market to yeah i mean the price comes from the margins right like and and you know you're you're gonna need a lot of people playing on that margin like on the buy side um you know

to to shore up that that trillion dollars you know it's gonna be 10 trillion dollars when it's million dollars. Retail is practically relevant now on the Bitcoin price. We're getting there. Remember, retail doesn't move even equities that much. What really moves equities is all the retail that has a pension, and then the pension funds move that equity. Or the people try to do bullshit with you know the the the derivatives right but but realistically speaking it's like that just the amount of money you need doesn't come from you know joe who owns a cafe and decided to like dump his a hundred thousand dollars in savings into bitcoin into bitcoin right that's not gonna do it no that's certainly not yeah and that's what i mean i brought it up because

people x people need to get out of the twitter bubble it's it's not uh twitter is not real life people like seriously not healthy no just like go there shit post and leave don't even read the replies no it's like i do feel like there's a part of the market or part of the people paying attention to bitcoin that just like want to be online all day every day talking about it but i'm becoming more convinced it's like it's just going to become boring go build a business and stack bitcoin quietly like there is there is no dollar conferences except for you know like jackson hall uh where you know like uh where we're like the the the the the print masters go to sort of chat with each other there like you know like nobody goes to like you know usd conferences

or go to, you know, like there's no dollar community. It's just like a pipe. It's a system for you to then go do other things. It's like, you know, like there is only so much market for Bitcoin products and it's going to be actually smaller amount of products with just bigger market share. Like that's how it works in any industry. And, you know, go build something actually useful.

I don't know, go make a robot dog that has lasers on it, right? So that it can do home security, you know, and hold your Bitcoin, hold your money in Bitcoin. Like that's a much more productive thing to do. Go make money doing productive things and then like care about the price in terms of like, you're not going to affect it. You're not going to trade it. You're not going to pump it, right? So go be productive. I mean, on the topic of robot dogs with lasers.

it does seem like we're moving into the sovereign individual cypherpunk future i mean you look at what happened in russia a few weeks ago with that drone attack um it does feel like the cypherpunk future is quickly quickly approaching the sovereign individual think about it this way like have you ever lived in a place that's a bit more remote with a little bit less sort of like niceties some amenities and less sort of like availability of product like you know you can be living in the middle of nowhere in a jungle right uh in a country that has no amazon uh has like no like barely like any sort of like resources to what you're accustomed downtown austin right like which is like next same day amazon for some shit you know um but the thing is though like

with starlink and you know like there's like decent like solar panels now for you to be off grid um you can be in this place and and exist already in the future right so like it's like if you're in africa like in some in some very poor places it's like living a thousand years ago right but you can now live you can cross the time and space you can go live in that place okay with starlink with your computer so like you can have a 2050 life right in in 19 in like in in 1950 right and and like we've already crossed space time in that sense right and so like you know if you're into some of those remote places there's always a way to get stuff like you know if you can just wait a week or two like you can get like you know organic italian flour delivered from

whole foods miami into the jungle in central america like in two weeks for like 20 bucks like it is insane right so you can get the niceties if you have a little bit of patience uh just because of the actual physical moving of that product right but but you do you do live on time right you can if you're a trader you're trading from that place you're doing whatever you're doing you can still exist there um now imagine when we have this these things that seem like sci-fi for us we're like i don't know like you're a humanoid personal security person right like you know you you can just order that on amazon the same way you order starlink on amazon and two weeks later you have a humanoid in the middle of a place that everybody around you live

like a thousand years ago or a hundred years ago sorry not a thousand hundred years ago right it's like but if you actually like pay attention being a little bit more outside of the daily grind of a western big city like we already have though like we really are in the future it's just that it doesn't feel to you like we are because you're just sort of like it's kind of like the the the the uh slow boiling frog thing you're just sitting there in the warm water you haven't noticed that everything around you is already like like developed an extra 20 years in the last one year right uh but if you if you're in a place where there is a stark difference like you do notice yeah i mean even in austin this is a bit counter to what you're just saying but like the

explosion of waymo over the last year i think i remember a couple of years ago they started like testing and it was like cool to see a waymo and it was like oh my god who's in that and they had like a very strict sort of boundary through which they could do rides and rather quickly like every in austin today i'd imagine like every 15th car is a waymo that you see on the road and to think of how quickly that autonomous fleet of cars sort of went mainstream in austin is is pretty insane it is not like i mean even just uber right like you don't even have to get to the like so uber verticalized the whole tax experience right like eons ago i one of my side businesses was like some high-end taxi dispatch software right and and like we were doing like one of

the largest North American company is doing the dispatching back end for them. And, you know, like Uber came in and completely killed them. Because why? Because, like, you can't compete with a tech company hiring somebody else's tech, right? Like, you have to become a tech company yourself and have that experience all sort of verticalized and combined, right? um and and you know like in in the last 10 years like you press a button and a car fucking shows up and it takes any kind of payment method like you don't have to talk to the literally one check box is don't talk to me driver right like it's like it's practically a robot placeholder this

is this is what like maybe people are missing in this development of the last 10 years they're like that's happening to everything we're just like so many parts of our economy and products and services like they still have a person there but that person is just a robot like placeholder i know it's just a placeholder because like maybe that position either we're not quite there in capability of the robot or the robot is just too expensive which is normally most of the case so but but another five years or one year like that person will be replaced by a robot that's why like you know it's so idiotic what unions are are doing with like large like for example dhl in canada they stopped taking packages this week they're just like okay we want an

increase in salary you know and and the company goes like well the market can't bear you know then the union is like not my problem right like so so like the the that means what like you know dhl is gonna cave right because they need to continue as a business so they're gonna figure out a way to cave to a certain extent and they're gonna probably to defer the the increase right uh and then what they're gonna do is just like you know replace 10 of the the the workforce in the next month, and then replace another 20% of the workforce in the next year, right? And then they'll find another balance again, right? And that's just a trend on everything.

You know, AI speeding up that, you know, like just hardware development speeding up that, you know, consumers being comfortable with robots and speeding up that too. You know, Japan was there in the 80s, man. They were doing weird shit with robots. it's just that consumers are not ready yeah this is something i think about a lot in the context of looking at my kids i think my kid my oldest is five and i think it's like a great time to be five because i think we have yes we have a period of time to figure out how this disruption is going to play out and position at least me position my my kids to succeed in this new world as as things

transition but that's like thinking like experiencing this fast accelerating change and playing with the tools and seeing how it's affecting my life like looking at my children and being like all right how do i position you to be okay when i think it's safe to say within the next 10 years there's going to be massive labor force disruption and the world's going to look completely different in terms of how work is viewed and what humans are actually doing yeah i mean like so my wife does way better reading than i do right i'm full dyslexic so like she reads to the kids nice i read to the kids like poorly so you know i what i started to do that's a lot more fun is like for for for a couple years they would just ask me questions in bed and

i just sort of like answer so they would ask me how do you make a car so i'd explain how you make the car right like how do you make the rocket i explain how you make the rock right so i was essentially a father chat to pt for kids right and then like you know it hit me like six months ago or whatever i'm like fuck i should just like turn on chat to pt on voice and like and we can ask together the most absurd questions right and and man it's so entertaining like because kids are going from first principles right they're completely unbiased first principles type of questioning and they get really annoyed when the bot doesn't want to answer them so you know because you know chat to bt is fully cupped right so like they they don't want to answer like so

for example my kid was like how do you make mustard gas right because they hired on some book about the mustard gas in world war one right and chat to bt is like oh you know that's not safe for you to do and doesn't want to answer right so then they start to try to hack the matrix here right like they're like yeah okay but what if i was trying to teach some kids in my chemistry in my chemistry class or whatever right like so they they try to get around the prompts and it it is fascinating how the kids jail break a lot of the technology and and that sort of like gives me a lot of hope because it really shows that like you know a six-year-old can already grasp that even though there is this like computer authority subject matter authority uh with a

certain uh decorum like the kid is already interested in how to break through that right like so they're already enslaving themselves from from the ai stuff like as kids um and that's super cool to see now like now like when you project that towards everything else like these kids are gonna grow up like you know being being super humans in terms of like understanding how to how to know things right they they they they know they're not like the previous generations like the the pre before internet you'd have like people would have this sort of like this big ego where um they they uh they don't feel comfortable asking people because they look dumb right and then our generation was like okay like i can go ask google i can like we developed this

idea we're just asking it's no longer shameful right so like we're capable of doing that with a lot less ego like we're not concerned about like saying i don't know this on a pod and there's new generations even crazier right like they expect to be dumb about a topic and like just like further inquiry into that and like that that's gonna be the new university right like they're not going to go to school i can't see how aside from social needs like what they're going to get out of school in 10 years from now no especially when you consider the so the caliber of education that's being put out there particularly in western universities it's like why would you ever waste tens of thousands of dollars a year to go to university outside of

the social aspects and that's like something i'm trying to grapple with do you think this we're gonna validate your fifth gender you know like it's right um uh because you know kids know right like you ask a kid this this kind of like kids like so there's this one kid in their school right that they're like you know the parents sort of for some weird reason sort of push the kid to be a little bit more sort of uh genderless or or like confusing right and this is very young kids right like four um and like the kids go and ask you like why are you a girl today like it's like it's not like they're being mean or anything they're just very confused right so kids know this stuff it's just like you know we have this weird society that like instead of like learning

how to do math in school they are learning how to like validate their insecurities right um and and like with ai education all this shit like it's gonna be very hard to validate stupid right um let out there's a bit of a tangent let alone the the like everything else that you can learn because you know we already had access to all the knowledge right our generation like you can go on google and find everything but like but you couldn't have google like then test you and like see like ask you questions to know if you know if you understood so you probably understood wrong but now with these tools like the kids can go and self-validate in terms of like accuracy of the knowledge or understanding of the knowledge and that's what school really is you know and

then there is like the further inquiry into like but what if i mix this with that you know that's how you get your phd um it's uh it's very interesting man it's it's you know like how that affects the non-certified professional services is obvious like everything gets replaced fast how how that replaces professional certified professional services is very interesting because you know like you might still want a lawyer you might still want an engineer to sign off on the building but they are not going to be as smart and as good as the ais but they are the person that goes to jail so it's an interesting you know like where does the buck stop yeah i mean i've i've been sort of partial towards the idea that we get back

to focusing on the physical world building beautiful things like i could i would be i wouldn't be surprised if like sports culture actually explodes and like that's what humans turn to is just like perfecting their physical bodies and competing like that's what becomes a lot of the focus um obviously like with spacex and everything they're going to explore space but because when you understand like the pace of progression that's happening with ai and all the jobs it's going to displace and everything it can do it's like why would why would a human spend time doing this at the robot king because that's the other sort of paradox or conundrum is that people are screaming like it's going to take our jobs but they hate their jobs it's like

you don't want to be doing that job anyway like so how do you create yeah like every time there's a every time there's a new technology um the you get like this idea that's like oh we're gonna the promise is you're gonna be able to free your time to do what you want right but this this new technology just causes more work right it's just it causes new work of different kinds and like the market just keeps on growing. So it needs more things to be produced, right? Like remember like when they said, you know, spreadsheets are going to free up your time.

So you can go like, I don't know, play golf in your, you know, spreadsheet junkie, jockey job. You can, you know, you don't longer have to work in the afternoon. That's not true. It's just that that company now acquired a lot more customers because he was doing a lot better job with the spreadsheets. So now they need you to work there until 10 p.m., you know. Um, so it's like, we're, we're just creating more value and that means we're going to have

more market. There's going to be more stuff to do, right? Like we're not bound by earth soon enough. Right. So we're going to have to be like, you know, creating other things and doing other things. It's, but, but the, but the thing is that the people who are smart and managed to figure out how to, to game the system now also have much better tools. I mean, they, they could be at a beach walking, you know, like while other people are working

in a factory, right? Like, you know, some of that is a product of where they're born or, you know, their current reality. But, like, people have way more mobility to break free of, like, social mobility today is, it's like, you know, a million X more than it was a year ago. Like, and, you know, like, just look at all these people on Twitter, literally, like, publicizing their book of all the stupid vibe coded websites they do that make five grand a month. right um you know they just and a lot of them are not devs a lot of them like they're very honest about how they're not the smartest person in the world they're just like they're just hustling and being clever and testing shit so like the the people who are creative like now like they they can ship you know that's that's it go be creative you know you no longer need

be an artisan the artisan thing was very limited by your capacity right um imagination is kind of like becoming your limit it really is and that's why i think it's imperative that bitcoin continues to succeed because that's a lot of the doomers among twitter which is understandable as economic like a bunch of people in the front seats of their car complaining about the inability to survive because prices are rising too high like i think we need to pair this productivity explosion with with hard money in the form of bitcoin and so people can shake off the doomerism um i think people just have no agency marty like it really is that simple it's like you know like if you go to a bank job right like where like you don't control your time you literally have a person

that tells you what to do with your time from, like, 9 to 5, right? Like, you know, you don't control your finances. The bank tells you, like, how much you can spend based on your mortgage amount, right? Like, your spouse also has the same fucking daily treatment, right? Like, people have, like, literally, like, zero agency. It's like, so, you know, like, how are you going to be optimistic? Or how are you going to, like, see the upside of all this if all all they hear all day isn't your job the job they already hate is gonna get replaced

it's tough um you know like we we need to like i mean we know like i mean they themselves they have to like figure out how they break free right uh like nobody's gonna hold your hand um yeah and is there just some natural distribution within the population of people who have agency and don't or like could like i think about this a lot again going back to the children like i want my kids to have agency and really go out there and do something with their lives by themselves and not be beholden to the uh the time trap of of jobs that they don't control in a life that they don't control ultimately like how can i still those values and then building on this like ai topic and particularly the example you used just using the the ai's

a quasi roman tutor that you can just question from first principles and get answers to like will there be an increase in individual agency moving forward or is it just embedded into population distribution that you're gonna have x amount of npcs and very few amount of people yeah i mean like you know western education is just like you know mass production of slaves right like it's like the kid goes to school they have their time controlled they have the approved books you know they have the approved topics they approve the answers they have to ask to go to the wash them like how dehumanizing is that like may i go pee like seriously like like you're really instilling a slave mentality right it doesn't mean you have to be impolite and just sort of say like

you know like turn your flip your table and go pee like you can just sort of like you know walk like you find a period of silence in the class and just walk right like so like just like having kids not have not be bound by this sort of like a de-agent kind of environment i think is huge right uh you know you produce more like you know responsible loving children by just like letting them be bored you know like they they can go poke some dead animals instead of like you know like uh having to do a bunch of like homework that doesn't really advance them um i don't know like it's a it's a tough thing as a parent like kids crave like organization and crave um discipline and those things so like how how do you find a balance there and it's

it's a different world now than we grew up with right like it's like how do we how do you take advantage of this and try to do our best yeah it's fun though be involved yeah no go back to your point about like your son already jailbreaking prompts i think people really and i think again going back to like it's the best time to be a five-year-old ever because i've noticed this with our oldest like the the amount that he's able to actually take in understand and into it is fascinating to me like like a bitcoin specifically like we let him watch tuttle twins his favorite episodes are the two bitcoin episodes obviously because daddy works in bitcoin but he knows what bitcoin is by himself independently

came to my wife and i and said hey i want to do some chores i want to earn some bitcoin we're like nice started like cleaning his room we set him up with uh with an e-cash wallet and he actively comes to us like all right i'm gonna go clean clean the playroom clean my room can you pay me in bitcoin yeah that that's remarkable i mean like my kids i i uh i always give them the the pencil how to make a pencil or whatever was the pencil uh title twin book that's like one of my favorite things i mean i wish most people opining on finance and economics on twitter read that so they can understand why a pencil is so complicated and how does it get made for that price right but like it's uh yeah like you just you just gotta feed them what you

can right uh they are really a product of their environment like you know the genetics like help or not help depending on what part of your genetics got to your kids right but uh but ultimately like they really are a product of their environment yeah luckily for my kids they get a their mother's side of the hairline which is good for them yeah it's starting to show there yeah i'm feeling good there's too much doomerism out there i'm happy that we're uh then we're going down this path because i'm tired i've been a doomer hand up i've been on there spreading doom before but it's becoming harder and harder to be a doomer obviously bitcoin over 100k uh makes me personally feel good looks like things

are going in the right direction but once you're able to tune out the mainstream media and i do think these technologies whether it's bitcoin or ai and certainly these two technologies combined will disrupt sort of the the old guard political structures that exist we're seeing it happen in real time yeah it's like you know it's a outrage society sort of consumer society like doomerism is just like it's it's like lazy it's the laziest kind of thinking is the laziest kind of consumption it's just like you know it's where like the brains go to die it's the same with protests it's like where the brains go to die you know like if if you if you truly care about something like go go build go build like there is no limitation to what you can make you can just

make things you know it's that mean um you know and and just just build it like you know and maybe you can even monetize it and you know and have a better life like it's it's not that complicated like just just sitting and crying about the state of the world is like it's super gay it's super gay and there's no excuse and that's a g-h-e-y before the outrage comes in no g-a-y okay um do you think uh do you think bitcoin is going to be disrupted to silicon valley thinking about i've been since we launched opportunity costs i'm just asking because uh It seems like they still haven't caught on.

There's this whole fascination with stable coins. They're leaning into it. Coinbase says JP Morgan's launching a stable coin on base. It seems like a lot of that Silicon Valley sort of archetype and crew is missing out on Bitcoin specifically. Marty, people are poor. People don't have money. People don't have savings. Seriously.

Like, so like, you know, the proposition of buying an asset that takes a dive, you know, every two years and then pumps a bit more. Like, people cannot wrap their heads around savings, right? Because they don't have money to save. And that's why, like, you know, the whole, like, you know, harder wallets for grandmas is kind of retarded. Like, it's like people just don't have money. so you know like having to survive volatility is very difficult when you're when you're living at minus 20 percent of burn right like that's most people like they're literally like living at minus 10 minus 20 percent of their burn so you know like that's why every checkout that exists

has like bio affinity in 12 months or whatever. Right. Like, um, and, and like, I think Silicon Valley is just tuned in on how to make money out of the people who don't have money, you know, like, it's like, how can I sell you, you know, a newer and newer version of whatever you have now so that it can feel a little bit good about yourself and your life by having, you know, 50 t-shirts in your closet as opposed to two uh and having some savings right yeah i see you uh don't have enough money to buy that burrito don't worry we've got a short-term loan for you right like uh but it's also amazing right the mismatch of like how the market is uh um not uh perfect like you know like just the arbitrage on that

the fact that there is the arbitrage on a burrito on uber eats that you can buy on credit like it's insane it really is it really is it's insane times we're living in um yes what else is on your mind anything else uh we should touch on as it pertains to coin kite or things going on in bitcoin or i think we covered a lot of bases here yeah we did uh you know just it's the usual just like we have our heads down just like building more shit that's that's the the best advice i can give anybody right now tune it out whether it's world war three jerome pal not lowering rates trump doge it's all noise nothing ever happens unless you put your head down put the blinders on and make something happen yeah like you know find the profit incentive you know like artistic

projects are cool but very few people can wake up and like like leave bed for an artistic project right for a hobby project it's a very special kind of people who can do that uh like most people need a need incentive right like it's like you know like it's like start a business on the side so you don't have to quit your job and go straight to noodles especially if you have kids but like try to build something that is for profit you know because like that really sort of helps you focus and that really helps you like you know like improve your life um yeah it really does it really does well thank you for doing what you do i i was counting how many um how many of your products i have within arm's length right now four i've got a block clock

micro right here to my left i've got i put them got some open dimes nice in here you know that also fits a shotgun shell there it is perfect for a shotgun so now you mention it i've got a tap signer in here in a queue nice right my bag down here so yeah appreciate you being a customer oh big a fan big fan yeah you make incredible products so thank you thank you the uh yeah if you freaks have not tried the q go try the q it's an incredible hardware device and it's just incredibly safe for punk and get on it get on it freaks my favorite device out there mvk

i'm bummed i couldn't see your face but we're gonna we're gonna create like an ai character of you that will oh i'd love that you can be you can make it funny i don't care we'll make it's great cartoon mvk we'll be talking in uh in the lakes of canada maybe that's the thing is canada dead is it screwed yeah man it's like i think canada has has reached terminal velocity for escape velocity for brains and capital. Because they completely trample the Laffer curve, right? So it's like more taxes than you get in terms of perceived services

or perceived quality of life in general. Canada was always very good at that. It was high tax, but it was still competitive with America. But the quality of life was 10x American. The quality of life went to shit. Canada became essentially India. um and uh you know like the taxes are too high you know you can't it's very difficult

to come back from this uh and and you know canadians the canadians that remain are less capitalized or they take advantage of the state subsidies or whatever shenanigans um and uh you know like it's you see it on everything it's uh the health care shit the quality of life is shit it's like you know it's now more dangerous than you know a lot of places um it's a late stage sort of empire vibes there even though canada is not an empire um you know i don't know how they come back from this is alberta gonna succeed successfully oh dude that would be amazing i i'd move every single left cent that i have left in that part of the world into alberta uh and uh hopefully alberta to those yeah it'll be the best i mean canada is just too

big like we need smaller countries with more autonomy right uh so like canada was supposed to be way more federalist than america is uh like in its construction uh but but you know it got captured right so um you you can't always like quebec should have gone uh it would have been the best for for them and for canada the same with alberta it needs to break up you would be a lot better for everybody um you know can you imagine being the third largest reserve of water on the planet yeah and being like the 20th producer or something like it's just not utilizing it at all it's disgusting well i mean like to like the problem is like it's very difficult to be a big producer of of like energy resources because america doesn't like it right so like you know

do you know who makes most of the money out of the railways to carry oil in canada Soros, you know, the same guy who funds Greenpeace Canada. You know, like it's like the like everything in Canada is designed so that Canada does not produce more energy because, you know, like America did the math and it's not good to have it. Right. It's a big part of the problem because, you know, like what Canada is going to end up selling oil to China. Right. And nobody wants oil to go to China. so it's tricky. What they should really do is just take over, you know, 51st state, be great.

Canadians get a second amendment, get some state rights, you know, like you can just move your corpse to Texas and Wyoming, you know, like tax-free. It would be great. It would be great for everybody. America is going to get so much natural resources. We don't even know what to do with it. You get a third sea, the North Sea.

um that's a shipping route now um it will be remarkable so it's like either break up all the shit into a bunch of little countries or just become america i think would be the best two outcomes do you think there's any chance of that you know like honestly like right now canada is just like a great place for us to pillage so it's it's i doubt that would go change And Canadians are proud people who just – at least the Canadians, they're a laugh there. They're very gullible, very – this is the Covidians and the elbows up. I don't know if you saw that political campaign that got – it's just pathetic. It's actually pathetic.

People are still doing Covid shots. like there's people still shooting their children with coveted shots there um you know because that's that's the opposite of america it's criminal yeah it totally is it's child abuse the you know the if trump had lost canada would have gone way more right it's just like canada had to be the opposite of america that's why they went left that's often how it goes and that was the whole elbows up campaign right it was like yeah yeah yeah and you know like and i'm pretty sure that carney and trump went to the same parties at epstein uh island you know like they're all the same crew yeah that the carney the fact that people don't make a bigger fuss

about him considering all the shit he's been involved in over the years whether it's in the uk canada um hsbc like go read watch all the plenaries it's insane it's insane the guy literally ruined england by being the central uh the the president of the the central bank there like the guy was the guy behind of the trudeau retarded economic policy like and then they go and they like elect the guy and the guy is like it has like pictures and sofas with like epstein and crew but the problem is in canada like the media you know how in america you get the perception of two sides right because even though it's all the same uniparty shit but like at least you get a perception on the soft issues yeah in canada there is no two sides there's just

one side yeah that's it like it's like it's the the state-owned media and then all the other media is partially funded by government too with subsidies right so you get one narrative only and the people follow the narrative uh it's it's it's like there's no agency there is carney better or worse than Trudeau in your mind? I mean, if Trudeau was running, Pierre would have won, which was very unfortunate. Carney is way worse. Well, on the plus side, though, I mean, he might open more tax loopholes,

which would be great, like legal ways of doing tax deferrence. One can only hope for that because at least he's a bit more of a businessman, not just like a haircut. uh i mean trudeau is like complete Jesus Christ just it's amazing um but you know the guy put on the same cabinet few of them already quit so who knows it's it's hard to tell it's you know like the country is not going towards a good place so you know how fast it goes south we don't know but it's going south you know it's uh it's it's gonna be a little devastating there uh it's a shame yeah it is right i mean like the amount of resources you know the just the sheer value

of the country you know you have educated people like with degrees and things that are useful you know like you have power you have everything like it's it's the classic problem of countries that have everything right like countries that have war all the time they have to be a little scrappier right um but uh yeah it's it is what it is it is i love canadians canadians i've met my life playing lacrosse incredible salt of the earth people most of them i believe most canadians i've met become friends with probably align with the uh the albertan view of where canada should go but solve the earth that's the minority marty that is the minority that's unfortunate and especially a minority that's still in the country

yeah all right maybe it just needs to collapse we can come pick up the scraps yeah exactly just accelerate right that's what the so the boys say yeah what it what i mean like if trump is listening to this episode, which he probably is, what I would suggest is a very easy plan to fully terminate Canada peacefully. Very easy.

So you offer Canadians a one-to-one wealth transfer to America. So they already make 30% of the dollar spread. And let them not pay taxes on their

first whatever 20 years of capital gains or something right that's it every single business in canada would move to america like like a hundred percent every doctor would move every engineer would move like it's over oh so you're saying like trying to drain talent like yeah and then you just and then you just go and you take over like peacefully right just say okay now you're america all right donald i like this clip it make sure we clip this and we uh we tag the president let him know this is how we get canada yeah it's very simple and it's cheap because it's only like what like canada has what like uh 20 million adults that are working adults like that's they imported like 2 million last year alone so that number keeps going up

yeah but those people yeah i mean so yeah that's a great like the the immigration charts i gotta double check make sure they were right it's insanity no no they had i think was 800 000 people just this year or something like in a country that's 30 million it was so when i arrived in canada in the early 2000s canada was 33 million people canada is now like 40 something and like canadians don't make babies yeah it's like it's actually like all downtown big cities is essentially like protests of people who are marginalized in other countries like that's it it's like it's like the the palestinians screaming the like the indians screaming the calistanis screaming like that's it like that's

all that it is downtown now like there is no canadians left it's just like it's just people who have problems abroad yeah it's not great not great hopefully i mean come up for nationalistic but yeah you're seeing it happen in america too like the front runner for mayor right now i believe in new york city he's the guy like pushing rent control oh he's like jagmeet singh he's like the guy who runs for the the labor party in canada same same concept and these things do take hold man because they tap into like you know like a lot of like a lot of people who come like as an immigrant that was an immigrant like poor right like no english no money right um like you know you want a better life right and and that's what people are seeking right and most immigrants are

harder workers than the people who are native like that's very common the problem is like when you When you have numbers that don't economically function, right, because it's just too many people for the services because, you know, these countries have full-on communism, right? Like, I mean, it's like communist healthcare, all this shit. So, like, you just can't make it work. So, then the people who are coming have shitty lives and can't progress and they're hardworking, which you want them to win, right? uh and it just creates this very uh pervasive uh um perverse incentives uh and uh you know and then you lose rule of law and you lose rule of order and and i was just absolute shit but again you know it's a big world out there young people are moving with their wealth they take their

bitcoin they go right uh it's very optimistic it's pessimistic for for people who are trapped but for everybody else it's a great new world to be in you just go where the capital is treated better uh it's happening everywhere develop agency freaks so you can travel to where you're being treated better mbk it's always a pleasure sir i think we've waited like i think the last one we did was like a year ago maybe a little bit longer than that we can't wait another might have been to catch up i mean if we're going to talk about ai it's going to have to be every two weeks i'm just kidding but yes things are moving fast thanks for having me sir always a pleasure no we should do like a deep dive on ai at some point because i it's something i'm fascinated in is

like how we implement it in our business how people are implementing it in their businesses not necessarily like user user facing end product but like on the back end of of a business like making your processes more efficient and becoming extremely productive on the backend. That's something I am knee deep in right now in terms of studying and trying to wrap my head around. Well, I'll get the AI to teach you.

I should, I should start asking. All right. I'm going to go do that. Take care. Peace. Thanks for having me. Greeks.

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