TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #684: Bringing Bitcoin to Every Square Seller in America with Miles Suter

Episode Date: November 17, 2025

Marty sits down with Miles Suter to discuss Block's eight-year journey building Bitcoin infrastructure across Cash App, Square, and BitKey, culminating in the launch of Bitcoin payments for all Square sellers nationwide. Miles on Twitter: https://x.com/milessuter STACK SATS hat: https://tftcmerch.io/ Our newsletter: https://www.tftc.io/bitcoin-brief/ TFTC Elite (Ad-free & Discord): https://www.tftc.io/#/portal/signup/ Discord: https://discord.gg/VJ2dABShBz Opportunity Cost Extension: https://www.opportunitycost.app/ Shoutout to our sponsors: Bitkey https://bit.ly/TFTCBitkey20 Unchained https://unchained.com/tftc/ Obscura https://obscura.net/ SLNT https://slnt.com/tftc CrowdHealth https://www.joincrowdhealth.com/tftc Salt of the Earth: [https://drinksote.com/tftc](https://drinksote.com/) Join the TFTC Movement: Main YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/c/TFTC21/videos Clips YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUQcW3jxfQfEUS8kqR5pJtQ Website https://tftc.io/ Newsletter [tftc.io/bitcoin-brief/](http://tftc.io/bitcoin-brief/) Twitter https://twitter.com/tftc21 Instagram https://www.instagram.com/tftc.io/ Nostr https://primal.net/tftc Follow Marty Bent: Twitter https://twitter.com/martybent Nostr https://primal.net/martybent Newsletter https://tftc.io/martys-bent/ Podcast https://www.tftc.io/tag/podcasts/

you've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free if you talk about a fed just gone nuts all all the central banks going nuts so it's all acting like safe haven i believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency bitcoin wins in the world of fiat currencies bitcoin is the victor i mean And that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin. If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. Like I just said, eight years in the making. It's a pleasure to be here, Marty.

And yeah, it's a real long time coming. Well, the pleasure is mine. It's hard to treat like you're a guest because you're such a good friend. I've often referred to you, and I truly mean this, and I think it stays true to this day, that you are the most underrated man in Bitcoin because of all the work that you've been doing behind the scenes, first at Cash App, and now at Block more broadly. And we're here today at Cash App Releases,

the event announcing everything that the Cash App team is working on and releasing. And I don't want any spoilers, this will come out after it, but it's pretty sick what you guys are launching. But not only at Cash App, I was at the Proto release party in Georgia in August. That was incredible, I think. The Bitcoin mining community and industry

is very excited for you guys getting into the hardware business there. And obviously over the last week, Square point of sale terminals have released Bitcoin functionalities to all Square sellers across the country. So you guys have been shipping like crazy this year. It's been a wild couple of weeks,

couple of days, couple of weeks, and even months, but it's a core principle of Block Inc., the parent company of all these Bitcoin initiatives, but it's a core principle to show, not tell. And so, yeah, it kind of blows my mind as well that this is kind of my first real podcast that I've done, but I couldn't, I wouldn't have done it with anybody else just because of our long history together

and just like our deep, deep friendship in since the early days of Bitcoin, trying to will this thing into existence. Well, we were just talking about it. I think we need to tell some more stories because I think many people got into Bitcoin, particularly post 2020, don't understand how hard it was being a Bitcoiner

and from the 2013 to 2019 era, I would say. I think when Saylor came in, when stimulus checks started hitting post COVID, people really began to realize the profundity of Bitcoin and why they should hold it as an asset and use it as money. But before then, it was like we were wandering in the desert trying to convince people that this is something worth paying attention to.

It was a very lonely endeavor, totally. And Twitter was often the place, Twitter is where I met you. And for many years, it felt like kind of screaming out into the void. None of my friends really cared to listen to me or were convinced enough. I was the crazy Bitcoin friend for many, many years. I think there's something about Bitcoiners, especially early Bitcoiners, where they have the tenacity within them to stick with their beliefs. I feel like we've always known in the back of our heads, are we a little crazy?

But no, no, no, this really makes sense. But it was a lonely process for a long time, and I remember a lot of those early days on Twitter feeling so relieved where there's people like you that understand the intellectual journey that I've similarly been on, can understand the social isolation in many cases of not being able to talk to your family or your friends, your college professors, or people that you think are smart that should have rocked this thing, but is a very solitary but I think it's made us all really strong in the long run. But yeah, I look back fondly of the days of Twitter,

of feeling it's like, oh, Marty Bent, my first real Bitcoin friend, or Matt O'Dell, or Jack Mallers, Mr. Hoddle. These are the first people that I relate to and feel deep, deep connection intellectually, but also sort of spiritually as we hopped on this mission together. Yeah, and as you're describing that journey, it's very, I don't know if ironic is the correct word, but the fact that we all met on Twitter, which was founded by Jack Dorsey, and that we're here discussing with you guys or building a block, which was also founded by Jack Dorsey, is incredibly poetic in a way. because similarly, I was in this city. I lived in New York at the time.

I'd been into Bitcoin since college. I was in Chicago, but I came here and I was just by myself on the internet, obsessed with looking for others. And obviously there was public Twitter conversations, but sometimes the best conversations happen in DMs where it's like, okay, what do we need to do? And I think you're an incredible example

of someone who saw the big vision and is using your knowledge and your expertise and your ability to build things to join a large company like Block and basically imbue it with Bitcoin. And obviously Jack is all on board, and this is part of the DNA of the Block family of businesses. And I think for people who haven't or aren't familiar with the sort of timeline of the integration of Bitcoin across Block's companies,

Maybe it's a good time to just describe what the early days of Cash App are like and why you guys decided to lean into Bitcoin. Sure. And I just want to start with saying I don't think there's any company in the world doing more for Bitcoin than Block.Inc. And I appreciate you recognizing the way we've approached this. And we've always tried to do it with a ton of principle and with the long run in mind. And for us, for me, for Jack, for everybody working on Bitcoin at the company, the mission is so much more important than the money. And we try to keep that core to what we're doing at all times.

And I mean like the gains when I say the money, because we believe that Bitcoin's ultimate destiny is to become what Satoshi wanted, peer-to-peer electronic cash. And so one of our overarching company missions is to make Bitcoin everyday money, and we've taken really intentional steps over the eight years that I've been at the company to really push forward that evolution sequentially. And it started in 2017 when I joined Cash App. Jack and Donji, our current CTO, were doing a Hack Week project. Jack had asked him, can you integrate Bitcoin into Cash App?

And Cash App was really small. At this time, it was an email-to-email-based system that was just kind of piloted internally for moving money around and was kind of at the very early stages, maybe a bit beyond that, but that's how it started. a couple years before and I knew someone on the Cash App side and for years I'd wanted to work in Bitcoin and as I said to many of my friends from college, I was the crazy Bitcoin friend that they wanted to shut up talking about it as the night got later on the weekends

or at the bar as like eventually I think you and many listeners can relate is that once Once you get the mind virus, it's like everything ultimately comes back to Bitcoin and you want to share it with everybody. So I annoyed all of my friends for a long time, but at least that reputation stuck in because when they wanted to productionize bringing Bitcoin to Cash App to actual customers, there wasn't a ton of DNA on the team. And so my friend introduced me to Jack, introduced me to the leadership team at Cash App, and I joined in June and helped productionize that and bring it to market as the first public

company to support Bitcoin, period. Why do you think it was important for a company like Cash App at the time to do that, having been in Bitcoin for many years at that point? For me, it was just an amazing opportunity. I'd wanted to work in Bitcoin for years, but there weren't a lot of jobs available. I had applied to Coinbase in 2013, but it was mostly engineering and they were small and the future was super uncertain. I just started another job as well.

It's hard to look back, or for people that are newer, it's hard to understand how uncertain things felt way back in the day. I think we owe a lot of that certainty and conviction and stability now to a lot of the early moves of companies like Cash App and the many, many other contributors that helped get us to this point, but there were unbelievable hurdles to jump through as the first public company, not only regulatory-wise, not just with the government, but even internally within Square, it was just Square at the time, Square SQ was what had IPO'd, what everybody knew was the big brand and Cash App was the little brother within the company and was actually

losing a ton of money. It was actually like potentially disastrous for the entire company if they didn't find a sustainable business model. But right around that same time on Cash App things started to click and I wouldn't credit it all to Bitcoin, or even most of it to Bitcoin, Bitcoin certainly provided a nice boost there and brought a lot of attention to it, to the broader market and audience. But right around that time we clicked and found a sustainable growth model as well. And it really coincided that we took on exponential growth at that point.

So almost from the day I started, it was kind of strap your seatbelt in and get going. And ultimately, we scaled like crazy over the last six, eight, I mean four, throughout my entire time we've been scaling like crazy. I remember talking with Owen, who's now head of business across all of Block Inc. but we looked at each other in 2017 or 2018 and Apple had just come out with their wallet, Venmo was so far ahead of us in terms of like people knowing where they were in actual user counts and volume and all of them.

We looked at each other and it's like if we do this, if we actually catch these guys, this is going to be crazy. This is going to be some sort of movie looking back on it. And at this point we're at 58 million monthly users. one of the biggest debit card programs in all of the US. And so it's been an incredible journey integrating Bitcoin into this ecosystem, but also growing that broader ecosystem as well. Yeah. The stat I just saw downstairs, you've helped 24 million customers get on board to Bitcoin as well. Some of it may be small, but some of it's certainly large.

Well, that's actually one of the things I'm most proud about in terms of of who does Cash App serve and who are its customers, it's not people on Wall Street for the most part. It's not people that have a lot of financial privilege. It's Americans from a hugely diverse set of backgrounds, whether geographically, socioeconomically. And for me, that's what Bitcoin has always been about, getting better money into the hands of the people,

Not the corporations, not the government or the hedge funds. It's like Bitcoin is for the people. And that's kind of always been core to my ethos in this space. So freaks, this rip of TFTC was brought to you by our good friends at BitKey. BitKey makes Bitcoin easy to use and hard to lose. It is a hardware wallet that natively embeds into a two or three multi-sig. You have one key on the hardware wallet, one key on your mobile device, and Block stores a key in the cloud for you.

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special operations approved it has free shipping as well so go check it out thinking back like back to 2017 when you joined and launched bitcoin and cash app at the time bitcoin was eight years old which is crazy to think it's like incredibly young nascent distributed protocol to really lean into so like the fact that you guys had that forward-looking view and took the risk to lean in at that time again i will say like as a bitcoiner when you guys started leaning into it i was like this is exactly what we need some legitimacy from a brand that is perceived by most people in the united states to be completely legitimate where at the time every exchange was sort of a startup that nobody could really trust but with that being said launched eight years into the protocol it's

been eight years since almost exactly to the date and bitcoins evolved a lot the protocols evolved the layers on top of the protocol have evolved, which has enabled you guys to enable a lot more features, particularly around Bitcoin, Lightning payments, send-receive being one of the biggest that I can think of. But we were talking about this downstairs, like this year, across the block, sub-companies or family of companies, it's been incredibly impressive to watch the speed at which you've in shipping, not only the Bitcoin related products just in general, but as it pertains to the Bitcoin related products, is that a function of just organizational efficiency

that's been gained over the years? Or do you guys think the timing is right for these products to be released and there's an opportunity to take advantage of? So the point I left a little unfinished before when talking about cash being a small part the square at that time was that we faced a lot of internal opposition even. Bitcoin's boiling in the ocean, Bitcoin is X, Bitcoin is Y, and getting alignment at a big company can be difficult, but over those eight years we've done a lot of internal education, we've brought in new people that are really excited about

Bitcoin, and so I think there's a lot more unity and commitment to the cause and I think that starts with Jack at the top. And I think it, we recently had a We flew all 10,000 people from the company out for a company birthday party, essentially. It was our 16th birthday, it's a square number. Everybody was in Oakland and we did essentially a very high production two-day conference inside the Oakland arena. The talk of the town leaving that was Bitcoin, about how Bitcoin showed up the biggest at that conference and how so many people left with the impression like, oh my God, I finally

understand Bitcoin now. Because I think one of the most impactful panels that we had there was Jack interviewed a number of human rights activists from around the world that are using Bitcoin in amazing circumstances, circumstances of extreme difficulty and resilience. And I think that really resonated with so much of the company that maybe is further away from the work and helped us understand as Americans or people in first world countries, just how much financial privilege we have and that Bitcoin is for everyone. And then there were other sessions on Bitcoin as well, but just a little sidetrack that like, it's been a long process, just like orange pilling the world

or your family is a process, I think the same process has happened internally. So I think that's really good and that's really important. About a year ago, we also shifted to a functional model within the company that has allowed us to be a lot more intentional and deliberate with our Bitcoin products, what we're shipping, and what is the overall vision. How do these different things come together? And like you mentioned, there's been so many announcements and launches in the last few months in particular.

And I think this week was so exciting for me because the Square Payments thing was something of really great importance for our company, but for Bitcoin as a whole, I think. Even when I started in 2017, people were asking me, like, when Square? When Lightning? And to finally be able to do it is a huge, huge milestone. And I think a number of the features that you saw previewed today at cash releases, I think, pair into that really well for what the evolution of Bitcoin can continue to look like and what it can mean for a major financial firm to be increasingly leaning into these

primitives and the capabilities behind them. Yeah. Since we're releasing this on Monday and we're not going to break any embargo, we can talk about it. I mean, the pay a Bitcoin invoice with a cash balance from Cash App was something you were just telling me before. We hit record. There's some lore behind that particular application.

So this feature is something that was the core primitive for how Strike was actually started. And it's a brilliant model because it allows Lightning invoices to be paid with dollars, which avoids any sort of taxable event for the sender, which has been one of the limiting factors that people talk about when why Bitcoin payments won't exist or won't take off, especially before some de minimis exception comes out. But the deep, deep lore is I pulled out an email from, as I mentioned earlier, Jack and I go way back.

We're great friends. And that's the beauty of Bitcoin is he has an app that is essentially, I would call it like a Bitcoin native version of Cash App. And they've been doing tremendously well and successful, and it's been awesome to see their success because as one part of the network grows, the other benefits as well. And that's something we share in Conviction is how the open network wins. And it's really unique about our industry where we can cheer for our competition. Oh, I had this experience downstairs where I paid an invoice from the Square POS terminal

and I pulled up Primal App, which is using Strike on the back end, Paid and Boom, Strike to Cash App, interoperable. Yep. And so just the more people using Bitcoin, the stronger the overall network is, and the more successful my company is going to be, and the more successful every Bitcoin company is going to be. And so, yeah, side quest there.

But the funny part is the foundational idea for Strike was actually emailed to me from Jack on November 1st, 2019, because we were talking about doing it for a Cash App internal hack week. And so it was like, what a, that brought like a swell to my heart looking at that, like, oh man, simple days back then and made me super proud to see the growth of the industry,

the growth of my friends in the industry and how far things have come from that day since. Yeah, and it's been very obvious the last six months, particularly that Bitcoin is everyday money. is a core focus it seems like over the last few years many in the bitcoin space if you're not paying attention to what's happening on the ground in terms of payments innovation whether it's cashew mints arc protocol the maturation of lightning many people become convinced that bitcoin is simply digital gold that you're supposed to buy hold never sell never spend

and try to speculative attack the credit system to get more Bitcoin. But like you mentioned earlier, the goal at Block is to make sure that Bitcoin is everyday money. And what would you say to people that say it's not wise to go after that medium of exchange use case right now? Yeah. So we have a three part sort of approach for how we've served the Bitcoin community and ecosystem to get to that end goal that I'll circle back to at some point. But we believe with

conviction that in order for Bitcoin to maintain the attributes that make it so unique, namely censorship resistance, it requires velocity. Storing it in ETFs or on corporate treasuries and just having it sit idle there it's it loses the very thing that attracted people like you and me to it originally and so we believe that it for in order for Bitcoin to truly succeed for it to become the native currency of the Internet we want it to be used every day and we think that we are uniquely positioned to help push this and so just like I mentioned earlier that you know when we lost launched cash up a lot on cash up a lot of people like you guys

are a little crazy for and you're a little early and not many people know is even before that in 2013 I'm the kind of like that admit that bull run square actually debuted on-chain acceptance through a third party before rolling it back after not a lot of people accepted I remember walking to the coffee shop around the corner from me in San Francisco in Nob Hill and it was clunky and the barista didn't know how to use it and you'd see this at all the kind of attempts at introducing payments to the mainstream to date is that there was always a sidecar or the training was difficult or the Bitcoin person isn't in right now, you can't pay in Bitcoin.

And so I think the seamlessness of what we've launched on Square recently is going to be a huge part of why the odds of this clicking and growing and progressing to where we hope it to get to be is different this time. And you asked me earlier, what's changed or why is now the right time? Today is the right time to do it. Tomorrow would be the right time to do it. If not us, then who? It feels like it's reaching a point where we need to, it's almost like, which way, Western man?

And we feel strongly that this is the direction Bitcoin should go and people should vote with their feet, vote with their sats. And to see the response from the community the last few days on Twitter has been truly unbelievable. I just, I've always loved, occasionally they make me crazy, but seeing the community engagement and how inspired people have been to deputize themselves, to go sign up their local Square merchants to tell them to turn on Bitcoin because they want to pay them in Bitcoin because they want this virtuous cycle to flow.

It's like there's so many beautiful people in this space and so many people that are so mission-driven that it's an honor to be a part of it so frequently. And there's massive benefits to the sellers for incorporating it, both if you do cash and you put a portion of that in the Bitcoin right away, but on the payment side,

from a fee perspective, it makes a lot of sense to enable Bitcoin payments. The merchants understand it right away, even normie merchants. And I think what's really unique about what we've launched, Jack had a great tweet, but our merchants can now accept payments in four different ways. Bitcoin to Bitcoin, so customers sending Bitcoin, merchant receiving Bitcoin, holding it as Bitcoin. You can go BTC to fiat, so that means automatically converting it into dollars for these normie sellers that I was talking about. They want to save 3%, but they don't want to hold Bitcoin. They'll do that any day. It's like, I don't

even have to think about the Bitcoin? Yeah, sure. Sign me up. Turn it on. If people want to pay me that way, great. The flip side of what we've also built is what we called our conversions product. That is where daily card sales come through. People are tapping as they buy their coffees. You set a percentage that you want converted and DCA'd into Bitcoin on a daily basis. I actually think that's the product that's going to take off more immediately than payments. That's kind of the equivalent of what I, like the parallel to Cash App that really we saw buy-sell and increasing accessibility as the first step of people's journey into Bitcoin.

I think that's where people can start really small, get a little bit of exposure, see how it affects their cash flows, and then observe it over time that, yes, this thing is volatile, but it trends only in one direction on a long enough time frame. I really love that daily conversions feature. Then you can still take fiat to fiat payments as well. We built a fully native Bitcoin banking stack for the 4 million merchants across the US and it's really a first in the world integration that it's not just bolted on, it's truly deeply integrated into the tools that you already know and love within Square.

That means your loyalty still works and your gift cards still work. Just being part of the ecosystem, I think Bitcoin is an incredible new part of the Square experience and we're seeing great excitement out the gates. I think we're still, just like cash flow, I think we're early on the payment stuff. We very well may be early, but we have a history of taking principled early bets and from this foundation, I think the genie's out of the bottle and it'll just grow and grow as more merchants come to appreciate that there's no fees for accepting Bitcoin, there's no chargebacks, and you don't have to wait at all to get access to your funds. And in an increasingly digital world,

those are three very important attributes for people trying to make, for hardworking Americans trying to make a living running their business. Sup freaks, have you noticed that governments have become more despotic they want to surveil more they want to take more of your data they want to follow you around the internet as much as possible so they can control your speech control what you do it's imperative in times like this to make sure that you're running a vpn as you're surfing the web as we used to say back in the 90s and it's more imperative that you use the right vpn a vpn that cannot log because of the way that it's designed and that's why we have partnered with obscura that is our official vpn here at tftc built by a bitcoiner carl dung for bitcoiners

focused on privacy you can pay in bitcoin over the lightning so not only are you private while you're perusing the web with obscura but when you actually set up an account you can acquire that account privately by paying in bitcoin over the lightning network do not be complacent when it comes to protecting your privacy on the internet go to obscura.net set up an obscura account use the code TFTC for 25% off. And when I say account, you just get a token. It's a string of token. It's not connected to your identity at all. Token sign up, pay with Bitcoin, completely private, turn on Obscura, surf the web privately. Obscura.net, use the code TFTC for 25% off. Secure your Bitcoin's future and your family's peace of mind. Too many heirs lose access to

Bitcoin because there's no clear inheritance plan. We'll show you how to change that. On Wednesday, November 19th at 11 a.m. Central, join Dhruv Bansal, the chief security officer at Unchained, Jeff Vandrew, CFO and Chief Legal Officer at Unchained, and Joshua Preston, the CEO of Gannett Trust, for a live fireside chat on how to make your Bitcoin legacy secure, simple, and built to last. We'll cover transfer on death beneficiaries, which is a new Unchained feature for designating who inherits your Bitcoin and removes uncertainty for your family. Connections. Unchained vaults are uniquely built to let you share custody to help your heirs or trusted partners securely recover your Bitcoin when it matters most. And last but not least, estate planning. They'll go

over how Gannett Wealth Advisors expert financial guidance integrates with Unchained to protect your keys and your legacy. Bring your questions. This conversation is designed to give you clarity on how to make inheritance seamless with real Bitcoin, not IOUs. Go to unchained.com slash TFTC to sign up. Yeah, well, and to that last point, hardworking Americans trying to make a living. I know this is something that we've talked about over the years, known each other. I think we both very much view Bitcoin as a tool to get us closer to a future which more humans are free. That is your Twitter bio. I deeply care about human freedom. I think that's where we really connect. We got into Bitcoin with anti-military industrial complex

sort of ethos, and we're both children of the great financial crisis. And I'll just speak for myself when I saw that and everything that happened in the early 2010s as it relates to WikiLeaks, Snowden, it became clear to me there needs to be an alternative. It feels like Bitcoin is that and that's why I've dedicated my life to it. But as times progressed and you look at the political discourse in the country right now and how polarized everything is and in my view, everybody's wiping up branches when they're missing the core of the problem, which is that the money's broken. And I've written about this many times the last few weeks

as you guys have continued to roll out these products. This is massive to me because I think Bitcoin is that sly roundabout way to fix a lot of the social issues which are seeped in economic stress in the United States without having to ask politicians to fix it for us. And so by enabling 4 million square merchants to get onboarded to Bitcoin, whether that's receiving payments letting their users or their customers paying Bitcoin or simply sweeping some of their fiat revenues into Bitcoin to sit on their Treasury to me that is more impactful than trying to fix the

economic issues that exist in America today by going to DC and asking them to fix it for us I think that's extremely well said and I resonate a lot with your journey as we've talked about over the many years but I mean I'm old school like I came to Bitcoin I found Bitcoin in the zero hedge comment section in 2011 which I mean if there was ever a spot that Marty Jones would feel right at home at it's those zero hedge comment sections but I say I'm old school because for me it was always about constraining the power of the state to act in an unethical manner. I was very red-pilled about the foreign adventurism of the US military and the pain we were causing

in the Middle East. Back then there wasn't, it's pretty mainstream to be like, oh yeah, those wars were a disaster these days. in 2011 or 1510 back in 2011 or those days it was not like you're still kind of an outsider if you're doing that um it's been positive to see the way things have changed but there was a lot tighter grip on cultural consensus back then i think and i think that that same thing is true of money where people are asking what is money um and like it's kind of culturally understood like oh yeah they just print as much of it as and there's no constraint on it yada yada yada

but um you ask people but um back then have you ever thought about what money is and be like shut up don't care you know like things are stable that i don't it's not really of concern to me So I think that is a positive that people do feel more conscious about sort of these macro things. I think there's a lot further to go in a number of these areas. But as you mentioned, to me, Bitcoin has always been, I'm blanking on it, Bitcoin is civil disobedience, is a tweet out I put out a number of years ago, and I believe that it is opting out, it is putting your weight behind, like building a better, fairer system, and I think that's been core to my journey.

And so just to tie it back to what you said about at Block, we want to make Bitcoin everyday money. And to get there, we believe we have to make it more accessible. We need to make it more secure. And then we need to make it more usable. And going back to your kind of timeline question, Cash App was all about making it accessible, making it instantly available for millions of people across the U.S. We're doing the same thing now with Square, where people can get their first touches on it, experience it. increase usability and accessibility. So the second sort of like bucket of projects that we look at is making it more secure. Like if Bitcoin is going to

be around for generations and the future of the entire global financial system we need it to be secure, we need it to be decentralized, and so that inspired our investments in both BitKey and Proto. With BitKey we're making it more secure to hold your own keys to have it be recoverable and introduce self-custody to a whole new audience. This is self-custody that my grandma can use. And with Proto we felt it was really important to offer an American company alternative to kind of like the duopoly within that comes from China and has a mixed bag of reviews

from the many people like deep in the mining. You know all about it. deep in the mining industry we i can speak for a lot of us where it's like thank god there's a competitor to bitmain and micro b2 just because they uh i would say bitmain specifically is not as customer forward as somebody like proto well we really have to be we really hope to change that um and then in making uh bitcoin more usable i think it's about showing these opportunities of how you how and why you should use be be using bitcoin every day and ultimately on progress it on its path to everyday money and so we talked about some of the merchant benefits the no fees

no chargebacks instant availability but then what is that um how do we make it even simpler from the cash up side of things and so um we talked a little bit about a product that internally we called it dollars on lightning for a long time basically the strike model So, preserve your stack while still letting the merchant receive Bitcoin and take advantage of Bitcoin, the network, and then perhaps the asset as well, or perhaps fiat. But I think the next sort of step from this product that I think is really, really exciting is... So everybody in Strike is Bitcoin native.

within Cash App using Lightning with the Bitcoin as the foundation is Bitcoin native, or they understand Bitcoin to some extent. But in any given month, it's single digit monthly actives of Bitcoin customers. But we have this top of funnel of 58 million monthly actives. And so that's 50 plus million people active on the app each month that we can introduce the Lightning Network to without even knowing what Bitcoin is or what Lightning is. By letting them use that US dollar balance that they all have, I think it's a step towards onboarding the next tens of millions of people onto Bitcoin without even requiring them to

know what it is. And so I think that's a big part in sort of connecting the ecosystem. And I think it's all going to be driven by economic incentives. I think when merchants are saving money on processing fees they can pass that back to customers who are increasingly conscious of the fading value of their dollar, that their salary is not keeping up with inflation, that their taxes keep rising. It's hard to be an American. I have a lot of empathy for people in America that are struggling.

I think far too often we don't call those people out or they're ignored. But I also want to recognize that I'm super passionate about people in the developing world who have it much, much harder as well, which is why I paused. But at least on the catch-up side of things, things are harder. And so I think meaningful, like getting 1% back in Bitcoin from the merchant because you scan this QR code instead of swiping your card, I think that's meaningful. And that's something that we want to lean a lot into. The other feature that we launched this week at Cash Releases is what we're calling Bitcoin Maps.

And so a lot of what we, we love to do things that are good for our company, but good for the community as well. And we love open sources like core to the block, Inc., DNA. going back to our little timeline before in 2019 we started a wing of the company called spiral that's led by Steve Lee we have ten full-time people where all they do is work on Bitcoin and Jack can't tell Steve or that team what to work on they're just like completely independent just like funded by blocking we've probably given hundred grants to people on every continent around the world and so they're doing really important work growing the open source ecosystem and

And that's just open source Bitcoin. Block has a head of open source within the company. Our AI initiative, Goose, is all about open source as well. And so open source is really core to what we're doing. And we do a lot at the company. Obviously, I'm focusing only on Bitcoin. But there's a lot of cool stuff going on across the company that I encourage everybody to look into.

But back to the map. We used an open source framework, btcmap.org. and this was just like a volunteer-based thing where people are tagging stores that accept Bitcoin and it works across the entire globe and it's actually really fun to zoom out zoom in and kind of like see where where's all the action but with the square integration we made it we made it so every merchant that turns on payments is given a pop-up a quick yes or no Like, do you want to be added to the Bitcoin map to get free advertising to this rabid bunch of people that are part of this movement that want to kick off the flywheel of Bitcoin payment adoption? And so it's really cool to have both sides of the network where these merchants are popping up on the map.

And then our engaged consumers on this side can use the map as a hub to go find these consumer incentives, to go chase these deals and support this protocol. Support this protocol like Johnny Appleseed with Bitcoin at these new places, but also we can point the normies in here too if we're getting meaningful rewards back in some of these places from the savings of processing. and so we're calling those quests we're going to be able to send people on quests to go find merchants that are doing a promotion or want to accept bitcoin and get things back within cash up and the second part of what we're launching in the next version of the map is what we're calling quests and this is what i mentioned earlier and what i've been i put out a a video tweet for the first time in my life uh being like hey guys um but it was actually super fun and had an amazing reaction of engaged Bitcoiners around the country going to their local coffee

shop that uses Square, convincing them to turn on Bitcoin payments and then doing a payment and I said, hey, I'll pay out a bounty to anybody that will do this, we'll automate this process. Yesterday was just a scrappy version, but I was blown away with the response and definitely something we're going to productionize and automate to happen automatically. But I just, I'm pretty caught up in the moment, just wanted to keep all the excitement and energy going yesterday. So I think that was a big success.

I saw our friend Paul Keating was really putting up numbers yesterday. I think he put up six merchants on the island of Kauai. Can't be that many merchants. We'll get them all pretty soon. Well, to any merchants who are new to this podcast and listening in because Miles is on, just go look at Steak and Shake. They came out with some financials. I saw a 15% uplift in revenue when they announced Bitcoin.

Store-over-store sales or what? I'm forgetting what that metric's called. It was material growth in there. And the revenue, like the Bitcoiners are sort of a rabid consumer base that is looking to Johnny Appleseed Bitcoin adoption. And so they will treat you well. And I think this gets to another thing, like moving forward, not only for Block but for Bitcoin.

Like, what do you think is most critical as we move further into sort of this inflection point of human history, fourth earning, whatever you want to call it? So I think we have a lot of pieces in place for Bitcoin. And you know what, through all the cycles, I'm constantly shocked by the surprises that come through and like the brief heart attacks or not so brief heart attacks as things inevitably go wrong but I'm always shocked by the resilience and the people and I think we have a lot of the right things in place and ultimately we're doing everything we can as a company to make sure Bitcoin is resilient, decentralized, secure, accessible, and used by people all

around but it takes more than us and it takes the community but I think what we've seen in the past is even when we're early, we see others follow. And so I hope that, as I mentioned, open network, like the more people, the more point of sales companies accepting Bitcoin, the better. Please go copy the products and turn on, get even more merchants converting their daily sales each and every day. To me, like these blue collar and high end places as well using Square, to me, these These are like the real Bitcoin treasury companies, the ones using proof of work every day to

put the Bitcoin on their balance sheet. And that's sort of like a speculative attack that aligns much more with sort of my ethos and what gets me excited. You know, I saw Parker in Sahil down in Austin spending Bitcoin at what used to be my favorite local grocer, which is Local Pastures. Well, the best. You have Sam Moffitt, who's been on the show before. He runs Sure Tail Creek Farms.

They have the best eggs I've ever had in my life. Incredible ground beef. They were an early beta tester that we got on board. And Sam came on the show, and I think after he was on the show, Parker and I were like, hey, this guy wants to get in. But at the time, this was a year, year and a half ago, he was curious but didn't have the tools to do it. And it seems like you guys have made that really easy.

And I remember what I wanted to ask earlier when we were on this thread of seller adoption. I remember a couple weeks ago when I sent a tweet out when you guys announced something related to the Square POS. Somebody responded. They've been in a beta test for two years, and their comment was, I'm extremely excited for all other Square sellers

to get access to this because it's been incredibly beneficial for me and my business. Is there any sort of data or KPIs from that beta test that you can point to? So I think actually the most interesting way to answer this is to go through the timeline of how this all came to be. As I mentioned, there's a lot more internal alignment within the last year. I have a lot more mandate to make things happen across Cache, Square, and Bickey.

There's just been a lot of things shifting that have put us in a good position to execute really quickly and ship things. The tests that we're talking about, we did a Hack Week project over two years ago, maybe three years ago. We had nobody on the Square side. Square was doing its own thing. We were all on the Cash App side. But on nights and weekends we hacked together a hack week to let a very small percentage

of merchants convert some daily sales into Bitcoin within Cash App. And so nothing was really built natively within Square. We did that for one hack week. The next year in another hack week we kind of took it a step further. But it really wasn't until January of this year that we were like, hey guys, we wanted to launch it for real. But in January was the first time like, all right, you got people, you got a plan, go do this.

And so it started with, I think it was January, I emailed Michael Markle from BTC Inc. who kind of like, he runs all the payments for the Bitcoin conference. And I was like, hey dude, what if we tried to do the payments at the Bitcoin conference? and we'd do it as a big surprise, people would see it, and we would announce it at the conference that this is coming. At that time, and so we did that. But the kind of lore that we didn't really talk about

is the product that we just launched was not built at all in April. It wasn't? No, we had just kind of kicked off that work and we're figuring out how can we even get this done in 2025 at all, period, even though we're gonna announce it finished by the end of the year.

But what we launched and actually used at the Bitcoin conference, we launched it non-custodially. So each square terminal had its own non-custodial wallet in there. We had the LSP that's opening just-in-time channels to them and managing liquidity across this. And it was like doing Bitcoin payments acceptance

on expert mode before we'd even done like, the handholding, the novice mode. And so that felt like so crazy that we decided to do it, but we had been, we'd had a couple of engineers building this on the side just for fun. We're like, well, not for fun. I mean, I think they hoped to get it out at some point, but we had to like tighten this thing up

in about like a month or two going into it. I, the night before, I was kind of like, I don't know, I'm like 80% sure this is going to work, like this is going to go super well, and the team worked so hard, and we were so diligent, like 15 of us behind the merch booth, which we were powering, just grinding as a team really closely together to make sure that this was a success, and then announce this vision of what we were going to build, and then to have the team follow through in such a short timeline was the best engineering effort that I've seen in my career and so this week has been kind of a culmination of that. I was pretty like emotional on Monday sending a video to

the entire team because it's something we've been building towards for many years and it all came together with the Bitcoin payments launch on Monday. I think it's now Wednesday and we're launching a few of these features on the cash app side to really connect the ecosystem and make it even more powerful. I think this overall narrative and ability to actually will this thing into existence is a lot more real. After we announced it at the Bitcoin conference,

I remember thinking like, oh, this is so good. Jack's gonna be super happy to me. And one of the press releases said like, coming out in 2026, like with da, da, da, da, da, with all these kind of caveats and Jack was, he was like, no, it's like, this needs to come out this year and we need to figure out how to do it. And I basically thought it was impossible,

but November 10th was the date and we're really proud to hit that. That was with like 100% of our focus pointed on Square for the last nine months. And then there's like, and by the way, we're doing this cash releases event too. And so we've had to figure out how to get these three other compelling products to market this same week as well.

So I'm really looking forward to the team being able breathe a little bit but deadlines create urgency and deadline i think that's been a big change that's been really positive for this year we're doing these twice annual square releases twice annual cash releases and um i i think it drives a lot of urgency that's led to a lot of like really amazing shipping recently i did not know that lore we uh we started a guinness book of world record yeah we did we did as the official witness of the of the record i can say we we set the record yep it's getting a little hairy there at the end but we got it we got it over the over the mark at the end thanks to rockstar dev yeah it's uh what's that like fast shipping i mean i texted you what

was it a month ago when you guys announced it november 10th it'd be rolled out i was like because during your presentation you did say 2026 in the pr yeah 2026 it's like oh you get it two months early and that's and this is another thing maybe not directly related to the bitcoin products maybe it is but we've been talking about this i mean i think we've both gotten into vibe coding ai and obviously with what owen just announced downstairs looks like cash app has an ai agent in the app money bot yeah and you're mentioning goose earlier open source sort of agentic framework or mcp framework and how has that helped you guys build especially like in a large organization jack loves the phrase um give time back like that's ultimately like what we can do

for our customers what we can do for our merchants is is automate a lot of the mindless bullshit that comes with a day-to-day job or running a business or running your financial life and the more we can create wonderful experiences that give time back to customers the more time they have for real creative endeavors or meaningful endeavors and so that's kind of a core vision for what we want to serve to our customers but also how we operate internally and so the number one company priority for the last 12 months has been to automate block and we're increasingly moving like our entire operating system and the tools we use into um goose and um a few other sort of versions uh of that for internal tools but i think what's um i think what's been really

interesting to see over the last year especially is how it feels like a golden age for very high agency people to bust through walls and accomplish things that they previously couldn't do or they had to wait for permission or alignment from this team and that team like a big company stuff it really gives people the autonomy to do things on their own and again show not tell I think especially from like the product perspective. I think the new PRD, the product requirements doc, it's like, this is not like a slide deck anymore, bro. This is like, it's like, show me a working prototype.

Like put your vision into Pixels and so that the rest of the team can experience it. I think what's gotten, what's worked really well for our team this year is rather than getting alignment across like the four big areas of the company you're waiting for some sort of review to check this off and like get the designs pixel perfect

or the comprehensive narrative on how this is gonna fit into the other things we're doing. It's like, no, go spike it. Like, let's make this work in production. Let's turn it on for what we call inner core, like the 10 most senior people at the company. If they like it, it's like, yeah, then we'll have mandate to see it all the way to production

and to like the broader audiences versus, I've just found that's been a great way to interface with engineers. I think they love spiking these things. I personally love feeling it in production versus seeing it in designs or in hypotheticals. I think to see your actual Bitcoin flowing in and out or to see your hitting the traditional financial system

in some other way, based on all the sort of primitives that we have within the company, to me that's like super fun and exciting. And I think we're also seeing kind of like the blurring of different roles as a result. It's like designers can now code and product people can now like spin up Figma super easily and imagine things. And I've found that our team in particular has been operating super, super well by being super fungible, caring less about like job title and like which department are you in. It's like, dude, we're all Bitcoiners. We're all on this mission.

We have these deadlines. and it's like I pull in my data scientist to do some product work that's unaccounted for at the moment. I'm leaning in on my finance and strategy guy to do the groundwork to understand this new product that we want to do. So it's taken a village to do all this stuff at once, but I think my team's never been so tired,

but I think they've never been so fulfilled as well, and that's what it's all about. That's proof of work. Yeah, I saw, I noticed you laughed a bit when Owen was introduced with his title because you're just like, ah, titles, that's... I think there's a certain irreverence within Bitcoin and within Bitcoiners, period, and throughout the industry,

but I think especially within our team, within Block as well, it's kind of like, oh, those guys never fully play by the rules or they just do what they got to do to get it done. Yeah, no, it's important. And I think taking a step back and really coming back to Block's involvement with Bitcoin and making a bold stance. We want to make Bitcoin everyday money. There's a lot of people in the traditional financial system in Washington, D.C. that may see that as somewhat aggressive.

But it's incredibly refreshing to me because, as I said, radicalized by the great financial crisis, WikiLeaks. Edward Snowden leaks, whatever it may be, made it clear to me there's a lot of corruption and we need to fix the system. And the fact that Block is willing to take a bold stance like, hey, we're going to lean into Bitcoin. We want to make it everyday money. It's something that the United States and corporate culture is desperately missing and has been missing for some time.

People plant the flag down and say, we're going to be bold. We're going to go after this. We think there needs to be change. We're going to be the change we want to see in the world, and hopefully it inspires other people. And you're saying other companies incorporating, and like SoFi just announced, they'll have buy-sell capabilities. They're also using Spark in the back end to do some international remittance. I think it's certainly gotten to the point where in corporate boardrooms across the country, particularly with fintech and banking, the executives are bending the knee and saying okay this isn't going away we need to figure out

a way to incorporate it um into that sense like not that you need to give away any trade secrets to potential competitors but like what are some of the learnings the hard learnings that your teams have had building on bitcoin that you think a lot of others may run into and bitcoin is not easy to build on at all period um and i think if we weren't so principled if we didn't think that the immaculate conception and the lack of like foundation and and venture capitalists and um coercion that like bitcoin's just free of all that it's the most neutral like it shipping a lot of these features that i think we'd want to get to customers would be a lot easier if we just like used x y or z chain or or if we just wanted to make a lot of money it we could turn on meme

coins and all that you know and so like it's been it's painful sometimes to be uh principled it's been there's definitely been like times where people are like some people are pulling this way some people are pulling that way and I think it requires a really strong principled visionary leader like Jack and I cannot tell you the amount of times that I've seen Jack had to have to like do say the hard thing and take the principled stand even when it's like I'm like really you're But he's just so the man and I'm like eternally grateful for the way that he sets the tone for the company that it makes it very easy to try my best in every situation to try to do the same. And so if there's one takeaway for people from this podcast is that Block Inc. is here for the right reasons. We're always trying to do the right thing for Bitcoin and we're taking that bigger picture vision into it.

Well, it may seem counterintuitive or it may seem like Block or any other company that's not incorporating anything outside of Bitcoin is leaving money on the table. But, I mean, at 1031, we are venture capitalists. We do venture investing and we invest in companies focused on Bitcoin. And our thesis, our strategy is like, hey, this is a low time preference play by focusing and dedicating our energy and time on Bitcoin. It may not be obvious to many people right now, but in the long run, that's going to be the right strategic move. If you're able to focus, be hyper-focused and not get distracted by the bells, whistles and alarms of other distractions, as I would define them in the industry. you're going to have a better product a better business and be positioned better in the future you know one one thing i was reminded of by um pavlonex this week um as we launched rolled out

payments was that um in 2019 we were the at spiral we were the first donation ever to the btc pay server team that um like there's obviously good history behind that than most of your listeners No, but it's like a free and open source version of BitPay, and we decided to sponsor them even though they're a direct competitor to our payments business, but because we believe in the long-term mission of Bitcoin, because we believe that a rising tide lifts all boats, and that by being close to this project, by this project existing, by being able to learn from this project, I think the thesis back then was we'll be in so much better of a position to learn alongside them and then act when the time is right.

And I think we're seeing that play out to some extent this week. Yeah. I mean, another example from Spiral is LDK, the lightning development kit built in Rust. I think that's another incredible example of, hey, we're going to fund these open source developers to work on this development kit for this Lightning implementation, and we're going to be able to leverage that. Not only is anybody going to be able to leverage that, but we'll also be able to leverage it to make our product better, to your point.

That's something that I think most people, particularly in TradFi, fintech, when they're looking at Bitcoin, don't understand your point of a rising tide lifts all boats. the interoperability of Bitcoin, like one company's innovation, like Square, you guys open sourced your cold storage, your sort of security model. Sub-zero. Sub-zero. In the early days, like anybody could use that, including your competitors, but at the end of the day, if it's truly secure and robust, that's better for Bitcoin at the end of the

day, because you don't have exchanges getting hacked or whatever it may be. Yep. And we ultimately think we need to bring the entire company in this direction, this more decentralized as more open direction that's epitomized by Bitcoin. But I think within the company, our Bitcoin team just last week, we actually open sourced some of our withdrawal, like the code that processes our withdrawals from cold storage. We open sourced that so that people could view that. I think as far as I know, that's some of the first stuff we've done on Cash App, but we

want our customers to have even more visibility into our internal systems so that they can know they can trust us. As a company, we want to get to a place where our entire roadmap is open and viewable and commentable, perhaps, to the broader world, the broader Bitcoin world. And so I think building in public is something we've really embraced at Block Inc. I think we can do an even better job it's something that in the last few weeks in particular we've been trying to do across the Bitcoin projects for cash square bit key etc but my main focus now that we're obviously gonna stay focused and deliver new things and enhancements on the square work as well we're gonna be really

focused on powering this flywheel of consumer awareness adoption and compensation and incentives but for me going into next year revitalizing cash app Bitcoin in particular is gonna be my top priority I think our features have atrophied over the last couple years and we've to be honest we've on the cash up side after years of like tremendous tremendous growth where we're just holding on for dear life we've had to take things slower and patch some things up. And I think it's reflected in some of the care that we've given to our Bitcoin customers, and I deeply regret some of that. And so looking to next year, it's going to be a total priority

to bring back our best customers, to offer the best fees, the best experience, and bring in some new features that aren't available anywhere else. So for anybody watching here that's been maybe used to use Cache App, used to love Cache App and has maybe moved to somewhere else. This is my promise to you right now that this is top of mind and bringing everybody back into the block ecosystem via Cache App is a huge, huge priority for me. That's my baby and it was really fun to see people engaging and seeing a lot of excitement again from the map feature.

So I think there's a ton of opportunity there and a ton of opportunity to show the benefits of the entire ecosystem. I also want to make sure I plug BitKey's security upgrade last week. Oh, yeah. Chain code delegation. Yep. This is a big, I'll let you, I mean, your company released it. I'm very excited about the product, so I'll let you explain it.

Well, without getting too deep in the details, basically, in most collaborative custody setups, you're trusting the company you're contracting with to be able to view your transactions. And with this, we introduce privacy from ourselves to give our customers more confidence that they can use their Bitcoin without a private company. And then maybe as proxy, like the government or anybody else as well, it introduces real privacy without without compromising the recovery guarantees that are so important to the whole BitKey ethos and mission, and there's a BIP that was put out, but we built this for ourselves, and then again, we want to give it back out to the community so that other setups can

similarly benefit from it. That's massive. I talked to Michael Flaxman, who's had this idea of sort of a blinded key path in a collaborative custody set up for years. And the fact that you guys launch it is massive. So two or three set up, as long as I have two of the three keys and I can move the Bitcoin by myself. If I'm using BitKey, Block cannot see that I'm receiving or sending Bitcoin. Fallback option, losing one of the keys. Need you guys to sign a transaction.

Yes, you'll know what's included in that transaction. But the ability to maintain and preserve privacy up until that fail-safe moment is a massive boon. And thank you guys for that. For sure. And I know we're pressed for time in this office, but just what would you say, not only to the Bitcoiners out there, but anybody who's within the block ecosystem, whether that's a Cash App user, a Square seller, or those two particularly who are unfamiliar with Bitcoin, like what would your pitch to them be

to get more involved in the products around Bitcoin that you guys are launching? I mean, my favorite thing when talking to sellers, even if they're like normies, they don't love Bitcoin, but you try to talk to them about their current financial and treasury strategy and you go like, wait, you're a hundred percent dollars right now, like in this political climate.

And you're like, kind of like, like things click for people so much more than they did many years ago. People are feeling that instability in our economy, in our political system, in our institutions. And that was always kind of like the Bitcoin thesis, eight, 10, 12 years ago. And it, for so many people, it's like,

ah, we're the world's greatest superpower. or where these institutions are forever. But I think a lot more people are feeling the fourth turning, like you said, or the changing of the guard, or the whispers of a new era kind of appearing. And I think starting small, get. It's like, okay, yeah, maybe 1% Bitcoin on my treasury.

Maybe it is good to hedge in this way. Maybe I should be diversified. Maybe I should be looking more deeply into this thing I keep hearing about. And without the recent news clearly is becoming foundational infrastructure of the entire economy. So I'd put it at that.

Yeah, and maybe we won't wait eight years to record the next podcast. But what I'm really interested to see is like the curiosity gap that's crossed just because you have this Bitcoin brand touch in the Square Seller Terminal, just as a seller. It's like, oh, there's this Bitcoin thing here. I don't really care about it now.

I'll be coming back to it. It's like, oh, that Bitcoin thing is still there. Like how many nagging sort of seed reminders do you need before they're like, all right, I'll turn that on just a little bit, just mess around with it. There's so much opportunity to tap into from this foundation. And I'm really, really, really pleased and honored to get to share this moment with you, Marty, after all these years. Because to me, this has been one of the best weeks of my life, finally achieving this thing that we set out to do eight years ago of connecting the ecosystem with both the consumer and the merchant side.

The most underrated man in Bitcoin, ladies and gentlemen. Miles, thank you for your time. Thank you for all that you're doing. It is an honor and a privilege to call you a friend, sir. Thank you so much, Marty. Peace and love, freaks. Love you, bro. Love you, too.

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