TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #753: The Economy Is AI Now with Jordi Visser

Episode Date: June 3, 2026

Marty sits down with Jordi Visser to discuss why AI’s parabolic growth reflects real exponential demand rather than a bubble, how physical infrastructure bottlenecks are the only real brake on progress, and what the rise of agentic computing means for the death of the 60/40 portfolio, corporate hierarchies, and the fusion of Bitcoin with tokenized finance. Jordi on X: https://x.com/jvisserlabs Jordi’s Substack: https://substack.com/@visserlabs Jordi on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@JordiVisserlabs STACK SATS hat: https://tftcmerch.io/ Our newsletter: https://www.tftc.io/bitcoin-brief/ TFTC Elite (Ad-free & Discord): https://www.tftc.io/#/portal/signup/ Discord: https://discord.gg/yHGkvYxdqT Opportunity Cost Extension: https://www.opportunitycost.app/ Shoutout to our sponsors: Bitkey https://bitkey.world/ Aven https://www.aven.com/bitcoin CrowdHealth https://www.joincrowdhealth.com/tftc Unchained https://unchained.com/tftc/ Salt of the Earth: https://drinksote.com/tftc Join the TFTC Movement: Main YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/c/TFTC21/videos Clips YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUQcW3jxfQfEUS8kqR5pJtQ Website https://tftc.io/ Newsletter tftc.io/bitcoin-brief/ Twitter https://twitter.com/tftc21 Instagram https://www.instagram.com/tftc.io/ Nostr https://primal.net/tftc Follow Marty Bent: Twitter https://twitter.com/martybent Nostr https://primal.net/martybent Newsletter https://tftc.io/martys-bent/ Podcast https://www.tftc.io/tag/podcasts/

You've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free. When you talk about a Fed just gone nuts, all the central banks going nuts. So it's all acting like safe haven. I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor. I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin. If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. Jordy, that's when you know it's going to be good is when Logan has to interject because we're essentially recording a podcast before we hit record.

There's so much going on. It's too much fun, Marty. I know. We were just talking about Colossus specifically. maybe jumping off point like the physical infrastructure and how it's probably undervalued when you consider how valuable these tokens are going to be and how uh how much demand for tokens is growing and this is before robotics even arrive and i think uh i'm excited to have you back on because as you know i i catch your weekly updates religiously on sundays and i just think you've been on top of the development of this ai theme um better than the most um maybe anybody that i've that i've observed from the investment standpoint and like we were just saying i think people are

completely missing the forest for the trees because they're trying to uh sort of comport incumbent frameworks for how the world world works onto this completely new world and they have to shatter their egos and their um their construction of how the world actually works in their mind and start to rebuild it yeah first of all marty it was good to finally get a chance to meet and hang for a little bit um a couple months ago um i like meeting the people that i get to know through these uh through these podcasts because um it's easier to build relationships and kind of do these things one-off so it was good good to finally catch up um on your point and i think this is a great starting point just because you can double click on this a variety of ways. Number one,

I think people are underestimating this hardware situation and converting tokens and compute into a commodity shortage because it is a shortage. And there's two ways to view it. And what you and I were talking about before we jumped on, I think is important just to kind of expand on, which is, number one, when Anthropic did the deal, let's say with Amazon, with Google, where they're trying to get enough compute to deal with demand that has gone parabolic. And this is only six months after people didn't think we'd ever see revenues or ROIC. And since that time, you've had a massive increase in the receivables for Amazon, Microsoft, and Google on the cloud side. You've had the parabolic move in ARR for Anthropic. I fully expect OpenAI now

that they've made the pivot towards coding and the fact that Anthropic is charging higher prices and the fact that I've now shifted from Claude for most of my daily work to Codex. Maybe I'll switch back to Claude eventually. But I think all of those things together, if you were one of these people, and I'm going to say one of these people because this is something that gets into the ego. If you spent all of last year saying AI was a bubble and saying we'd never see the revenues, I'm sorry, but for people that have already been successful, that have already made, you know, they're already in the top 1%, they're in the same industry that I've been in for the last 30 years, I think it's very hard for people to admit they were wrong. And I think that's the

first thing is it's very difficult with what's going on for people to admit they're wrong. Then when you add in the stubbornness that comes with, I said this publicly in X, I have a sub stack. I wrote a book, all of these different things, which put your credibility on the line. It's very hard to admit you were wrong because then what did all that, how can anyone take seriously? So I think psychologically it's difficult, but the second part probably equally important when you see charts that are parabolic, when you see Intel go from 25 to 125, when you see Dell go from 80 to 450, well, historically, that is something that your gut tells you. I've seen this before. When charts like that happen in six months,

nothing can change that fast in life. But the problem is that is what it takes to adjust to an exponential world. And if you go back and read the writings of Ray Kurzweil, if you go listen to Peter Diamandis and all of these people that have been talking about abundance and the exponential for over 20 years, and in Ray Kurzweil's point, over 50 years or 45 years, you recognize that they say at some point things are compounding so fast that the linear brain cannot handle it. And I think when you add the psychology in and you add the inability for people to see these parabolic charts and think they're real, it just allows people that maybe are a little more open minded that are willing to be flexible. I thought Bitcoin would probably be five hundred thousand

right now, as if you would have asked me this a year ago. And here we are sitting in a bear market at seventy thousand. So I can admit that I was wrong and move on to the next thing and just sit there. Investing is about distributions of return. It's about distributions of probabilities. And I think stubbornness in a world of exponential, they never give you the pause to catch up. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think one thing that you've been being the drum on the last couple of weeks, I think this week specifically, it was like the whole concept of, I understand investing and most importantly, portfolio construction is changing. 60-40 portfolio is not what it used be i think you were referencing uh our friend joe weisenthal and tracy alloway um from from

oddlots and they're sort of pointing out of this fact right now yeah and i you know for those who didn't see it um i mean torsten schlock basically is making the argument which i agree with and most economists do not agree with this the entire economy right now and i'll say in the us because because it is dominated by the US, is AI right now. And yes, I understand that consumption is almost two-thirds of GDP. But for consumption to grow at a time when we're not seeing any job creation whatsoever, historically, if you had no job creation, you would assume that if there's no job creation, there's no GDP. That's historically the relationship that normally would occur. What is happening is we're obviously having a massive build-out, which is contributing to

nominal GDP. But the AI side is allowing profit margins to grow. And whether it's purely AI, the accounting benefits that come to CapEx versus taking the revenue up front, it doesn't really matter to me. It's driving stocks higher. And stocks are such a big portion of the economy that you can't not say that a 10% move in stocks, which is equivalent to over $6 trillion of net worth created in the stock market, of which let's assume 70 percent of the stocks are owned by Americans, including pension funds. I keep hearing this myth that most Americans do not own stocks. So you guys know that is a complete lie. Two thirds of Americans own stocks either directly or through pension funds. And then a third of Americans receive transfer payments from the

government. So you can see how this is kind of like UBI. If stock market's going higher, A lot of people are benefiting. And at the same time, the transfer payments are still there and growing every year, filling in probably another 25 to 30 percent, even though it's 33. Some of those are also getting pension funds. So regardless, the majority of Americans benefit from the stock market going higher no matter what. yeah and that's um that's been one of the wildest things to observe is again people like to talk about hated rallies but this might be the most hated rally from from many angles i mean you have the people i believe wrongly looking at the dot-com bubble and saying look we're doing the exact same thing i think yourself many others i think um his name's escaped me right now i'm from artemis uh baker gavin baker i mean i think he's done a really good job of explaining like the

broadband build out the demand wasn't there the demand is not only here but it surpasses what the infrastructure can can actually supply right now uh and so you have it from like the investment sort of perma perma bears saying this is this is going to blow up and then you have it from the social side of the people uh uh acting like luddite saying we don't want data centers it's taking off our waters driving our electricity prices up and that's actually a conversation i had earlier today on the on the infrastructure side i think the narrative battle is definitely a place where dario and sam altman need to do better i think jensen actually does the best out of all of them but really on the electrical infrastructure build outside that that really

needs to be cleaned up in the sense of like hey energy production and utilization of that energy production if that's increasing going up to the right typically human flourishing is going up to there's no such thing as a very rich um country that produces very little energy the more energy the better you're going to be and so like positioning the energy build out as a story abundance itself uh i think is something that uh the the ai industry needs to get better at and i think they can actually learn from the bitcoin mining industry there um but then yeah this crossing the chasm of uh the reality that people lived in for for most of our lives and the new reality that i'm becoming more convinced is here every day as i use these tools is i mean this

week's episode you talked about like what could um perturb the this growth in this particular sector and i think it's literally on the supply side if we have a commodities um price uh if we have energy price inflation because of this war and we can't get the parts to actually build the infrastructure to the market but i think the narrative side as well if you get politicians beginning to step in slow things down it's something that needs to be worked on too Yeah. So getting back to what you said at the beginning and then the second question and combining them all into this one, because I think the end result is to at least give people an opportunity to hear a negative side of this, meaning what could happen in both the short run

and the long run to change this whole trade, because there will be things that create doubt in the narrative. And I think right now, because the numbers are growing so rapidly on the earnings side that people are kind of, they've lost attention to the fact that there are bottlenecks that are going to happen. So let's go back to the Colossus side. Elon Musk was able to get something done that the hyperscalers are just having a hard time to get done. Part of it is what you're talking about, which is the regulations. Part of it is the bottlenecks. It's all part of how do we get a one gigawatt data center built? How do we get a three gigawatt data center? How do we get a seven gigawatt, like they're, they're trying to get these and none of them are built yet.

And I keep a spreadsheet of the probability of these things getting done in the near term, the medium term. And there's so many risks associated with getting it done that the delay is going to take years, not, not weeks, not months, but it's going to take years to get them done. Now you'll have a few, I mean, even with Elon Musk, what Anthropic is doing is securing a certain amount of compute, but they're still building out the other pieces. Elon has just been ahead of the game of realizing that we needed this much compute. And anyone who's used GPT 5.5 or even Opus 4.8, which just came out, you're seeing big step leaps by having more compute and how much better it gets. Okay, that's all well and good. Then the second part is what

Horson-Slock said, which the entire economy is AI now, whether it's the debt side, which was part of his point, like all IG issuance is going to be AI for the build-out, and then the stocks leading the market, the ones driving margins, the ones driving everything, well, those are related to the build-out as well. The problem with build-outs is there are cycles. So in a traditional labor and capital world, the debt market freezes up either because monetary policy goes up or because someone got over their skis and all of a sudden the credit market, you start playing this game of deleveraging and we get the dot-com bubble. So that's not the way this one's going to go, in my opinion. In the AI side, I don't think it's labor and capital. And once the capital,

meaning the debt starts to be an issue like in the dot-com bubble, then we start firing people eventually to make up for the fact that GDP is slowing and we need to get our margins back higher or at least get our debt back down. In the case of now, I believe it's about bottlenecks. And I believe it's about the five-layer cake that Jensen Yuan talked about, which is at the bottom of that stack are energy and chips. We have shortages of CPUs. We don't have any problem with GPUs right now. Vera Rubin is now being put out now. We had Cerebros come with an IPO.

This is an innovative solution, which I'll get into as another part of the risk trade that people have to think about down the line for things like memory and things like that, which is really the innovation and the algorithmic innovation which is going to happen. But what you're left with is an economy which is very AI-centric, which means it's very correlated, which means it doesn't take much to change the narrative. And if the narrative changes, as we know in the crypto world, you can make a bear case for Bitcoin. I got to just say quantum's coming. The OGs are done. This isn't what we thought it would be.

The ideology, you can always come up with a narrative. Human beings are really good at it. But the reality is, is AI going to stop in its tracks? No. It's a foregone conclusion because of people like you and I that use it every day and just are blown away by the potential of how I'm growing a business, how I don't have to hire people, how I can do this stuff myself. And it's getting easier and easier to create stuff simultaneously while doing what we're doing here, where Codex can keep running a job for me to build another turbulence model, which is going on as we speak across the room. So I think for everyone, the negative side is going to come from if we can't get the power built in the time needed, if all of a sudden we see a flat line or a slow in growth in anthropics parabolic curve, if we see DRAM prices peak and actually start to go down, if we see CPU demand for a quarter just slow down, everyone will take that one data point and it'll be confirmed that it was a bubble and this is going to roll over and then we'll start worrying about the debt. And at some point, I do believe that the bottlenecks will create the image that there's an issue.

And on the second part with Sarah Brosnan and algorithmic improvements, I don't think people realize that algorithms and recursive self-improvement for algorithms are going to solve the algorithmic problems. There's no doubt in my mind that they will come up with a way to make everything more memory efficient. And so maybe on the one side, we already have enough power. I believe there's a chance if we had battery technology that exploded, and today we have a news story going around with a company that is part of my basket, Fluence, which just had an announcement with NVIDIA on a deal. Batteries are one of the solutions that could make the current power situation on the grid all of a sudden have enough gigawatts for the next few years. And I'm not saying that is anywhere close to what we are right now. But let's assume there was an advancement in batteries where you could make that argument. Well, then we wouldn't need all the data centers.

And then we'd have ghost data centers that are being built that were never used. And the space will come up in three years and we won't build the ones that are on the ground. So you can make a negative argument. And I do believe it's part of the distribution of outcomes that this is a bubble. But on the flip side, for the people that are bearish, the most likely scenario in ignoring all of the trends and charts that are going on and saying, I'm right, you guys are wrong. This is a bubble. You don't know what you're saying. This is going to crash.

it's part of the distribution it's just not as high a probability as the amount of voice being shed on x about it yeah yeah i think like the circular financing uh theories that are going around there i mean they're very pepe silvia to me where it seems like uh it's it's hard i mean michael berry i think many people have been picking up what he's saying and reading it as gospel despite that his record has not been as great as it was post uh i mean he had a really good call in 2008 but his record since then has not been incredible and the circular financing theory is very scary because it's like oh these guys are just and running uh ai up to where it is now but then i think you have to take a step back and if you're a user and say like okay does

this provide me value is this working is this getting better and every time i do that the answer is yes yes yes um and i want more and on the bottleneck side too it happens in many ways like when anthropic started charging people using open claw like they blocked off the 200 or the 20x pro max 200 a month account from from using open claw and we had a transition to api cost our first month of api cost was like seven thousand dollars and that was a bottleneck of okay like i don't know if i want to pay that much per month for this but it forced me to get more efficient so i i see your point about memory like i built a memory system for my open claw that uses qmd cogni and a bunch of other wiki llm stuff that work in conjunction with each other and that cut my

token costs in half month on month and so you had this bottleneck of of uh sort of uh cost pressures internally at our business here that forced me to like okay how do i be more efficient with us to spend a week doing research and it cut our our bill in half from april to may um and so the point being is like these bottlenecks can actually create even more efficiencies than than we thought uh in the long run as well yeah and honestly 4.8 was released and part of the change that needed to happen was in response to that. Um, I remember when I used chat GPT 5.5 for the first time and I went, thank God I can finally get off of, of Opus. And the reason was I hated, and I didn't realize this until chat GPT came out, uh, 5.5 came out, which was,

I don't like verboseness. So I don't like like long winded responses. I don't like long winded responses, which is funny. When you ask me a question, I can go on for three minutes with an answer. But I don't like listening to Claude go through this long-winded explanation. And then I got to go scroll up and get the whole details of what was just typed, where 5.5 immediately was just boom. It was quick, but it was also succinct. And succinct over verboseness is important for token usage because every word is more cost to you. And so if it's doing that in not just the output you're getting in a chat, but it's doing that in co-work and it's doing that in Claude, then you're really using a lot more tokens.

So I think the improvements come also from the fact that people will shut it down or they'll complain about it, and that's the beauty of everything that happens. And for anyone who remembers just what it was like to have an iPhone from 2011 on, just think about how much faster it is today. And even in the last three years, the models have gotten significantly better and the processing speed has gone up. And I think we're going to see all these improvements. So I do think the algorithmic side is not going to take you or I

going on to AI and asking how to make this more efficient. I think it'll just do it itself. And you just literally say, hey, can you just make my open claw cost me one third without going to an open source model? Or let's make it one tenth by going to an open source model. Pretty soon, you'll just be able to verbally say that. So Freaks, this work was brought to you by good friends at BitKey. As things happen, things get lost. You need to replace your phone. Life happens. And BitKey has been designed with this in mind. So if you're looking for the easiest way to secure your bitcoin off the exchange go get a bit key doesn't come with any seed phrases there's no single point of failure it's a two or three multi-sig you have your device

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think you've referenced it but goldman came out with that report that uh token demand i think 80x year on year from 2025 to 2026 and projecting from there will 27x in the next two years and this is before robotics this is before you have agents running in every home and every business and it's just trying to calculate or even fathom what the ultimate token demand will look like is and how does that outgrow the efficiency gains and if so by how much and how much more expansion of of this data center infrastructure is necessary to, to the point you were making earlier. Yeah. And one of the things I try to show in the videos, and if, if people watch this and they leave with one thing for them to realize, cause there isn't this marker where this sign

post goes up and goes, Hey, remember the world changed in October of 2025. But the reality is October 31st was the last month of kind of the pre-trained, the official ending of the pre-training era. And so when people look at stocks and they think about this AI trade and they go, well, this is a four-year bubble. This started with chat GPT. We're three and a half years in. I don't think people realize when they look at these parabolic charts that the reason they've gone up so fast is because in November of last year, when Opus 4.5 came out, the agentic world happened. And there's no official date of saying the agentic world started. But until then, And honestly, everyone thought it would be this very slow moving, you'll get eight agents this

year, then you'll have 200 the next year, then you'll have 2 billion by the time we get to 2035. And what actually ended up happening was out of nowhere, it just started. And Andre Carpathy was the one who probably set off the runner's start saying, okay, in October, I said, it's not happening until 2035. And now something changed. And when he said that, and a lot of other people in Silicon Valley did, if you were a perma bear at that point, you needed to make an adjustment. And I wrote a paper, which I highlighted this weekend about the physical hardware and the physical upgrade is beginning now. And the reason in that paper was, and this was in, I wrote it in December. Um, and it came out the first week of January as my outlook paper saying

the physical constraints of the world are now going to be tested because we're going to be entering, and let's just take it for what it is, seven and a half billion people on the planet today. We're entering, for argument's sake, seven and a half billion people this year. What would happen to all commodities that human beings consume if we doubled the population in one year? Well, think about what the traffic would look like in every city. Think about what the food situation would look like. Think about what the oil situation would. That's not the way it happens. But for the digital world, that is exactly what happened in November of 2025, is the expectations of there being 7.5 billion people added to the consumption side of the

economy through the concept of them consuming tokens. That's why they're issuing token futures, because this is a commodity. It is chips plus energy. So for everyone watching this, if you just leave with one thing, the reason these charts look like this is because overnight we added demand by seven and a half billion consumers who are the future consumers using the crypto guardrails to consume payments down the line. Everything changed at the beginning of this year and we will never go backwards. It will only increase from here. And that's why the Goldman chart shows that we're basically in the second inning of the CapEx needs because the token needs are going to be that high six years from now. Yeah, I think the one anecdote that proved

that was like github server infrastructure was under stress because they had so many pull requests and commits because people were just letting their agents run wild to to build stuff yeah and most of the enterprises that are going to drive a lot of the token consumption because remember enterprise adoption has been very very slow well there's two things driving it now one is it's just gotten easier because of the agents so the agents are replacing humans so you and i both build i mean I couldn't build the stuff I'm building today back in October. It wasn't until November that I could speak into Claude, chat even, not even code, and say, hey, I want to build this. And it would build it. Now, I can do this all day long. I mean, I'm literally running something

now. And I had not been using Cursor for the last seven months because I didn't need to. Well, I'm building something that is probably more important. It is literally a turbulence model specifically built on my own beliefs of what the world will look like. This kind of takes the torsion slot thing in. So it's different than the things that I've been showing on the video. And it said to me, Kodak said, I think you should build this in cursor. And I went, okay, fine, let's go through it. So I had to update my cursor. And again, I haven't used it in a long time. I cannot code like I'm not a coder, but I can code really, really well. And it's this thing. I put a video out on YouTube last week.

How do I start with AI to show people how they can, in a weekend, go from nothing to incredibly powerful superpowers that will put you in the top 1% in one weekend? And it's because it's my journey just compressed, but that's because AI has got that good. So I do think that what has happened and all of the things involving GitHub, the ARR for Anthropic, people should just admit that the world change, enterprise adoption is now happening faster because employees don't need to use it. the company can say it's going to be used and the companies are in FOMO now. They're worried that if they don't secure the compute from Claude now and believe that Claude is going into these meetings going, we're not going to have room for you soon. I mean, this is the way things go parabolic is there's a supply shortage and that's what's happening right now. Yeah. And it's, it's interesting to observe in the headlines like Uber from a couple of weeks ago where they ran through

their their token budget for the year in april and that had people saying oh well it's not as useful as as many are making it out to be it's way too expensive it's not as efficient as it needs to be i took that and i said well i mean uber incredible company and i used their service quite a bit but it seems clear to me that they weren't implementing it correctly uh internally and just letting like the whole idea of the ceo mandate of token maxing um and you just have employees just using tokens to prove that they're experimenting with this i think that headline i was reading through that saying it seems like an implementation error on uber's part um you can certainly get incredible productivity out of this if applied the same way and yes you shouldn't just

be burning tokens to hit a kpi to appease the ceo which i think a lot of these companies are doing though but at the enterprise level actually i'm not sure if i've heard you um i can't recall if i've heard you reference this but i thought one of the most impactful interviews i've watched this year so far was jack dorsey's interview with um the sequoia partners and just thinking about how companies just need to completely rethink how what a company is these days and basically compressing hierarchy from 10 layers to two to three and using ai to create a company intelligence layer or a brain and employees simply work around the edges paying that brain and that is an incredibly powerful thought experiment and i think highlights like again how early we are

it's like you literally need to re-architect how information flows within the economy using excuse me within the company using these ai tools and that's a whole re-architecture of of what a company is number one but then sort of how employees interact within that company yeah and um so let's let's use the jack dorsey um interview as a springboard and i referenced two podcasts that i listened to last week uh one with a guy dan shipper i can't remember which podcast that it was on. But if you go to my YouTube, it's referenced in there. And then the second one was the Moonshots podcast. Now, the Moonshots podcast was Salim and Peter Diamandis talking about the enterprise. I mean, he's out there presenting on what an enterprise needs to

do in the AI world, what it'll look like. Now, he's doing it from the perspective of an established company and what they have to do to transform to survive. On the flip side, Dan Shipper is an AI native company who's a power user. And so if you listen to both those, you're kind of coming, and this is the way that I like to attack problems. Let's hear someone talk about who's presenting to companies about the way that they have to transform their company to be able to survive. And then let's go from a power user who's saying how he's adapting and how he's going through it. Two interesting stories to get to that point. And so it matches up with what Jack Dorsey was saying with Sequoia. And it says it from the perspective, it's very difficult for

incumbents to actually change. Most tech companies, you know, like his and other ones are firing people very quickly, but that's because I think they understand very quickly two questions that I believe, and I'll take a different take on the Uber situation because I thought about it when I listened to it and when I heard the person who made that comment speak, I think Uber was trying to accomplish two things. Number one, who should we replace? And I think there's no better way to get the information than to have them all have unlimited tokens and go see the productivity gains that come per token usage. And the second question is, how many people can we replace? and that you find out by the entire productivity that's coming through this. So rather than just

one at a time, how many can we get away with and whether or not they ever going to admit it? I've run businesses for a long time and I managed people in my twenties. I care about that stuff. You care about who's surfing on the net, who's going through it. I never cared about whether someone spent four hours doing nothing all day. I didn't, if they spent four hours doing internet time, and then the other four hours are the most productive of any person in the employee that I have, I'm fine with that. It's a question of output per hour. And some people are just really good at the efficiency side. Some people are not. And so I think there's probably an element that gets broken down by what Uber did. And I think for all companies that are not

AI native, they're having to figure this out because it's really hard to train people. And since the agents are going to be doing a lot of the work, the question then becomes, who's actually good enough to be able to get more output per hour. And that takes more curiosity, more creativity, and more understanding of what's actually happening. And I think that's what a lot of these companies are trying to figure out now. What's up, freaks? This rip is brought to you by good friends at CrowdHealth.

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secure and grow your bitcoin without giving up control go to unchained.com and use the code tftc10 at checkout to get 10 off your new bitcoin multisig vault that's tftc10 at unchained.com it's a great time to be a small company i think and because i mean just to highlight for like implementing like anybody listening to this isn't particularly if you're running a company that the whole company brain architecture and i was i mean i don't want to toot my own horn here but i listened to that and i was like okay this is uh an incredible validation of what we've been building at tftc we have a team of there's five of us six of us and we've set up open call in january and we've been building this memory system which has been upgraded in the last six weeks

and anybody has access to anything that's in that memory so it's like financials and every transcript of every podcast we've ever recorded every tweet we've ever sent every newsletter we've ever written every ad partner we've ever interacted with all that information sits and is organized in this sort of vector database with it's sort of like an obsidian vault but for agents specifically and so it has uh interrelational context between different files and folders and you don't have to tell people what to do they can just ping the agent like hey uh where what are the ads that we need to run this week what uh we're writing a newsletter on this topic what have we said about it in the past and how has that narrative changed moving forward and we're

We're a media company, and I think we have an advantage because a lot of what we do is purely text-based, so these models are actually perfect for our business specifically. But it's just once you see that you don't need the hierarchy that has existed in corporate governance structures since the industrial age or maybe even the digital age, It's, I think a lot of people need to do some soul searching on, again, going back to like getting over their egos and just adapting to this because those that adapt, adapt immediately or quicker than others are going to have an incredible advantage. they're not only gonna have an advantage this is the reason why um so when i when i did and again it was a short youtube but i did it um i did it because the most frequently asked question to me is how do i start and i realize that when people say how do i

start it kind of gets into um using ai is like trying to lose 30 pounds when you're when you when you weigh 200 you know you can't lose 30 pounds in a month without doing significant damage to your organs so you take a long time and you're like you know what a safe number to lose is one and a half pounds a week so if i do the math that's you know four weeks a month that's six pounds so if i want to lose 30 it's going to take me five months to do it in a um in a controlled safe manner. Okay. Not everyone has the patience to go five months. So what ends up happening is even if they do it, it probably takes them seven months for the less disciplined, meaning they stay on it. They have, you know, I'll have a cheat day. It starts adding up. And by the end, it's there

for the people who are type A and they're like, no, I'm going to get there. I'm in a weight loss contest and I'm going to lose it. They do it in, you know, in two months. No one knows how to start with AI because it's, it's a demoralizing thing. Everyone knows how to lose weight. You just exercise more, you eat less, and you're going to lose weight. With AI, it's just not that easy. And every day you're falling behind because the models are moving that fast. So pretty much whenever I do podcasts now, and I think there's an audience that hasn't seen me speak, or there's someone I haven't talked to, your point on this, it is the most powerful, empowering time you'll ever have as an employee that works at a company. And as someone who has had to hand out, you know,

end of year compensation for hundreds of people. And very seldom, maybe I'm going to say maybe 1% of the time, that's probably being generous. People leave the room happy. They all think they should get paid more. They all think they shouldn't have to work as hard to make what they're making. And what AI allows you to do is have that situation be your own. If you want to go start your own business and not to, not to, let's see, Logan's on. All right. Logan's a producer. So let's assume Logan is so good at his job and he's getting paid by you guys. And I go, hey, Logan, here's a great thing for you to do. Logan, close your ears right now so you don't hear this because I don't want to get in trouble. But let's assume that you decide that you actually

want to do this job, but you end up being able to do it for 10 places. And you say to Marty, here's a deal. You only have to pay me one third of what I get paid now, but I'm not going to work for you. I'm going to be a consultant and I'm going to do this for you for one third. And then you go off and you do this for six other places for the same amount. And now you're making more money. You have control over your life. You have control over the amount of hours you work. If you want to make less, you want to go. That is the place that people need to get to with AI is that formula for how you get paid. Everyone has some number when they work for someone, they're always underpaid. But if you're now your own boss, you have to make a decision. How many hours do I want

to work to get money that I need? And you'll have a different perspective on money. You'll have a different perspective on work. And I just think that that's going to happen over time with more and more entrepreneurs. They're either going to be forced to do this, or they can go watch my YouTube video for 20 minutes and at least start somewhere and get empowerment. And once they get empowerment, I do think they'll have more control over their own destiny and actually be doing what they want to do and getting paid what they want to get paid. Logan, you can take that advice if you want to. I'm here for your overall well-being and quality of life. He's the only one I could use as an example. You're saying that, and I think I told you this last time you were on, but

like my, my boys, they go to a Catholic school and I was actually happy to hear that they sent out an email earlier this year, like, Hey, we're aware of AI. We actually want to reach out to the parents who actually know this stuff so that you can be part of the conversation of how we implement it in school. And it's just thinking like how, like thinking of the university system, how that's going to be completely disrupted. Like I can easily envision a world where my oldest just grad or didn't graduate can he just finish kindergarten um and by the time he's of college age like does the university system even exist in its current form like what does it do to learning systems and i think um i would put a lot of money on it's not going to look the way it does

now and then what does that do for the economy or again this re-architecting of of the economy in the age of abundance. I think it's going to be hard for fathom, uh, for people to fathom. It is hard for people to fathom what it looks like on the other end, 15 years from now. So let me, let me tell you a funny, um, not a funny, let me give, um, you, and you can ask questions on this. Um, cause I don't, I don't think we've talked about it, but I've publicly said how much I hated school growing up. Um, and my father didn't graduate high school, brilliant man, invented all his own equipment. He was a core driller. So he was a construction worker, but he was an entrepreneur who had nobody work for him unless he needed help on a job.

And usually the job site provided that help. But he invented all his own equipment to do it faster than anyone else could do that particular job. And it would just break down more, but he knew how to fix it. So that was his whole edge. And what he taught me was, number one, school was a waste of time. Books were a waste of time. Don't believe anything you hear from people. And as a young kid, that set you up for a bad expectation of what school is and how important it is, how important grades are. Luckily, I have a good brain from my mother and father, and I was able to get through high school with relatively good grades. But I went to five colleges before I graduated. When I finally did graduate, it was 1992. I was born in 67. So I

was turning 25 years old. That is not the normal time that someone graduating college is supposed to graduate. So when I moved up the ranks at Morgan Stanley, there were two reasons. Number one is I got a job directly out of the school I graduated, eventually graduated from Manhattan College. I started at the bottom of the firm and immediately hated my job day one and was very vocal about it to the people I'd made friends with. It was in the controllers area of Morgan Stanley. And I just remember saying on day two, this job sucks. I don't want to be here. And I decided I wanted to be an options trader because I was in the derivatives area. I was doing their P&L analysis. So to get to the point of AI, what I ended up doing was using what was

AI back then. There was no internet when I started at Morgan Stanley. That came a year and a half after. What there was were books. And so I say I hate books. I wanted to be an options trader. I did not graduate out of college and did not take options theory. So I had to learn options on my own. So every day when I commuted into work for one year, I committed myself to learning every single options theory book and building a spreadsheet in Lotus and eventually in Excel to decompose the Black-Scholes model until the point where I could do option pricing pretty good in my head with no option background, all with the hope that eventually either I would move to another firm or someone at Morgan Stanley would move me up to work on the trading desk.

That was how my career began. And five years later, I was opening an office for the firm in Brazil because I moved up quickly. And what I did have in training, which some of the other traders did not have, was I had a background in handicapping. I could do really quick things in my head with odds and probabilities, which was perfect for options. So the reason I bring that up is to learn all that stuff, I had to commit a lot of time. I did not learn it in school. So I learned kind of outside of the school system. With AI, you can learn anything you want to learn in any way. This weekend, I talked about people that are helping their kids with diseases and figuring them out and using LLMs to figure out what's going on, because the only data that

matters is the data they're seeing every day with their child, the data that the child's talking about. People don't realize that health issues, the best data is the personal data of the person that's actually going through it. And so a parent of a child is going to see the behavioral shifts. They're going to see the moodiness. They're going to see the sleeping stuff. It's really hard to remember all of that when you enter a doctor's office. So by adding all this stuff into LLMs, doing the research, these people are getting to the point where they're actually triangulating the result of what's happening. And whether it's mold poisoning, which is something that I referenced, whether it's a rare disease like Gavin Baker talked about on the All In podcast,

it doesn't really matter. If people are not using artificial intelligence because it's a bubble or because they've got some person saying this is bad for kids in school, you're making a huge mistake. It is empowerment. It is the ability to learn anything you want to learn and develop a skill and be able to do it in record amounts of time in the way that you like to learn, whether it's visual, whether it's audio or whether it's written, it doesn't really matter. So I have a really big point of this to just make sure that people should be spending the time on it, because I do believe it will change your life. yeah and while you're explaining that i brought up like particularly in the world of um medicine and new breakthroughs and discoveries again i mean obviously uh eli willie they're coming out with these glp stuffs and and i'll put my hand up like a bit skeptical of the glp one stuff at least in its current form because i know it's a bit of fast and loose sort of self-experimentation

with gym bros particularly but i know people have taken some i've had good good uh good results i know some people have taken i've had bad side effects particularly with the wagovi and uh ozempic but uh i don't know yeah it's part of me doesn't want to be a doomer in that regard and try to be an optimist about this and just overall thinking of the transition we can have in the economy to think about these like higher level for lack of a better term more virtuous goals and endeavors where for the last 30 years a lot of the economy has become like a high velocity trash economy hyper financialized revolving around sort of ad networks and data collection to figure out how to hack people's minds and extract money through them that way

But just observing what's happening on many different fronts with AI, particularly with new discoveries and medicine and mathematics, it's like, oh, well, maybe we can get to a future where we're focusing on these more important, bigger problems and not having people graduate college to be a quant for Goldman Sachs to figure out how to get an additional 50 basis points a year in trading revenue or trading profits. um and can we actually position and focus the human capital on on things that are much more important at the end of the day yeah i think my take on this um on everything you said i'll i don't think i've said this publicly but i know i've said it in private to people when um either the topic of glp-1s or something else shows up um and people get caught in this word maybe it's also with the vaccine and people go, what's your view on the vaccine? What's your view of politics? And I say, well, I grew up in a house where my father told me not to believe anything people tell me. But there's another thing. Instead of saying side effects, the true

word to be using is trade-offs. Everything is a trade-off. If you're going to die of obesity and diabetes, you can take diarrhea for a few months. There's a trade-off. If you get a job at Goldman Sachs and you're making lots of money, the trade-off is you're working lots of hours and you have a hierarchical structure, which you could be fired at any point because you're in competition and they get rid of 10% of the people. Like there's trade-offs in everything in life. If you decide to playing football, the coach decides to hand the ball off to Marshawn Lynch, there's trade-offs. Um, if he throws the ball to an interception for the Patriots, you're a Patriots family eagles we hey we beat the patriots in 2017 yeah uh you're left with a scenario of trade-offs

everything in life is trade-offs you make decisions there's a trade-off so side effects become this word that people use in medicine um and again it gets back to the vaccine do i want do i want to take the vaccine no do i want my mother to take it hell yes she has precondition and i don't want her to die so again there's trade-offs in everything in life and i think with the stuff we're discussing, I think that's the thing that AI allows you to go is what are the trade-offs? If I make decision A, what should I be thinking about on the other side? And the reason this gets important and the reason I tell people that they should, you know, spend time using AI on the investment world is because everything has a trade-off. When you make an investment in

something, it's not just that it went down. By putting money into Bitcoin over the last six months, it's not only been a bad investment, but when you do it relative to Dell or Micron, it's been a horrible investment. If you diversify and you have a bunch of money in Micron and a bunch of money in Bitcoin, then you don't care as much about Bitcoin going down. So in life, portfolio diversification, trade-offs, they all become part of this big puzzle. And that honestly is what life is. And the line that I always gave my kids that stuck with me when my oldest needed a quote from me to put in there. I used a Ralph Waldo Emerson quote, which I say all the time, which is, life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood, which is

really what these trade-offs are about. Nothing is a smooth path. And that's why saying the word bubble or saying the word, I won't do GLP-1s because of this, you're just not thinking of the trade-offs. There's benefits. There's a downside. And yes, I can talk about GLP-1s and what Dave Rex, the CEO of Eli Lilly, talked about with Jensen Yuan in his hour conversation. I highly recommend everyone go listen to that. Understand why the Gila monster is a critical part of GLP-1s and why the big question they're trying to solve now is they don't know why when you take GLP-1s, it actually gets rid of addiction. And I don't just mean alcohol and drug addiction. It impacts consumerism addiction, shopping, everything. It has huge, powerful impacts on

the brain. And so when you, when kids start taking Prozac or they start taking something because anxiety is going through the roof, there's trade-offs on that as well. And every parent has a child that battles anxiety in some form. I do as well. And what you're left with is the scenario of trade-off. So this, this trade-off thing with AI is one of my favorite things to spend time with. So I'm going to get rid of side effects and start trade-off becoming the big word. I like that. I like that. I mean, on the note of Eli Lilly and NVIDIA, I think they announced that they actually have like a cluster that they're running specifically with the partnership with NVIDIA. Yeah, they have two. So they launched something in Silicon Valley together. So Eli Lilly is an unbelievable company for people to spend time on. I love these American companies that are from the 1800s, like Corning and Eli Lilly, that are getting a rebirth because of AI. Um, and if you go listen to that interview, you will hear two things.

One is they have a campus now in Silicon Valley. This will, and this is really for NVIDIA is trying to make a huge push into helping people live forever. Um, solving diseases, uh, Demis Asabas at, at DeepMind is very focused on this as well. Gemini science was just released. Um, and then you've got LilyPod. LilyPod is on the campus of Eli Lilly in the, I think it's in Indianapolis. I know it's in Indiana. I think it's in Indianapolis. But you're left with a scenario that they have on their campus a place where they have all their data. That's their AI factory. And if you think about how valuable that is, the data that a pharmaceutical company has is not just about the winners. It's about the losers.

And all of a sudden, all of the things that they've ever tried that didn't work out, well, now with AI, they can go through all the permutations of all those data, and they're going to be able to find things that maybe they made it to the – they didn't make it to the red zone. They got to the 21-yard line, but they didn't actually get in the scoring zone, and they had to get rid of it for some reason. They came up with a different solution. But with one tweak, they would have gotten into the end zone. You're going to have cures for things that have already gone. It's going to lead to them buying biotech companies that have also made it pretty far down. They may have run out of funding. But every idea or IP by a pharmaceutical company or biotech company was a great scientific thought.

It may not have finished and it may not have been by itself something that could finish. But when you combine it with something else they tried in a similar disease, it might actually regulate. That's what we're getting to. And that's why the Eli Lilly in the pharma side is so important. And what I've said is I don't believe SAS, enterprise SAS, seat based SAS companies are in any way shape worth spending time on. But pharma companies are human software, and I think that's worth spending time on. Yeah. I mean, I guess going back to the Dorsey thing, it looks like they're creating the human or the company brain that they can begin to use to push out new products and do better research. And I mean, you mentioned SaaS, but that's one thing.

Are you bearer SaaS or because going back to this company brain, I was thinking about it. I actually talked about it last week. I think Figma surprised people with their earnings report, their Q1 earnings report, because people were assuming like, oh, AI is here. Figma, which is like a UI designer tool, is going to get completely blown out because people are just going to be able to build it themselves. But it seems like because of the AI tools and the APIs that they've implemented, people have been using it more. And that's one thing I've been thinking a lot about, too, is maybe these SaaS businesses aren't doomed if they can actually build API infrastructure. Because if you think of what they know about all their customers and all their customers' pain points, which are individual to each different customer, that company brain itself has a ton of information that can actually provide a better end product at the end of the day. And I think what you said is really important for, um, so Dan Shipper, who I referenced in

the podcast this week said in his experience as a power user, uh, is now using software more than ever. So let let's, let's, um, break it down humans that are seat-based, meaning if your business is dependent on selling, you know, a certain amount to company a, and you're hoping to get five seats to turn to 10 seats over the next two years, I don't think that business is going anywhere. So think of that as you're using the software, you're a human, you're pressing buttons, you're doing whatever. Now let's go the other direction. And let's assume that instead of the human making the decision, it's directly through the API. And through the API, just so people know, well, an agent's doing that. So I think an agent consumer software is very different.

So for that to work, the companies have to make sure that they transition from a seat based human world to making sure they're part of the agentic flow. And so you and I have built things. I put things that I build on my subscriber paywall so that they can use them. And then I show them how they can take this Excel file, how they can take this thing that I've downloaded. If I want this to be an app, though, I might have to use a Figma like to complete what I'm doing. it might be better to actually have it completed so it's stable and it goes up somewhere as opposed to me creating a file that I have to run every Friday and then upload it. So if I was running a business where I wanted one of these, and maybe I will go into production, I think that's where the agents, if I say, hey, I want this to go into production and not be an Excel file, I want you to

attack this API, attack this API, attack this API, give me the result, but I want it to be in something stable. And then if it breaks down, I just have the agent go fix it. I think we're going to get to that point, but that means the software providers that are able to do that will be there. I don't think all of the SaaS companies are going to be able to transition their business. And so, in fact, I'm going to say that differently. I know all of the SaaS companies are not going to be able to transition their business, but some of them will, and some of them probably have already started that process. But I do think from an investment standpoint, if you're going to do that, there is an upfront cost that you have to do to change your business that's racing against

whether your seats are being upended. And so your margins and your multiple are probably going to compress while you're going through that stage. And if you can find those companies that are going to survive, I think you can invest in those. I think for the most part, I've said it's a waste of money relative to the hardware side where I know that build out is going to happen.

No, I'm thinking just as an example internally here, Dropbox, like the amount of API pings we've done in Dropbox in the last six weeks, probably far exceeds what we did in the first five years of using the product just because i started building apps specific to our agent with the with the api it's pinging it multiple times a day where there's a manual before that where logan would go and upload or pull files and now the agent can do it yeah and let me let me give you an example

a real-time example so like bloomberg is something that i paid for my business it's expensive but it's also impossible to use the data unless I need to. I can't just connect to the API very easily. They make it incredibly difficult. They're policing it. They're going through it. So I went out and paid for data on top of my Bloomberg. Now, the data I'm paying for is less than half a month of Bloomberg for a year. So this is a way for me to get my subscribers something. And it's really more about trying to build something and going through the repetitions, pinging it a bunch of times. Because with Bloomberg, if it all of a sudden says, no, you got to call Bloomberg, you got to go do it. Like, it's just not that easy. And so

I do use Bloomberg data, but via download for me to get things that I've created in there, which I can't do in this other place. But again, it shows you the difference between two companies, one that is purely just I'm accessing the API because they don't have other services on top. And then there's Bloomberg, which is incredibly expensive, but I'll probably work off of it very, very soon. Last topic I wanted to cover, I think looking at the emerging, but I think many people are convinced is going to be massive intersection of Bitcoin, stable coins, and the agentic economy and where we are now.

uh in your opinion where are we on that that trajectory everything is um progressing in a very very good manner um and let me let me define that for people so from the network effect part which i believe was going to be important the agentic side is showing up in stable coin volumes transactions it's showing up in tokenization so both of those charts are parabolic um i'm I'm spending time with a lot more places on tokenization. I'll be working, you know, and showing up and speaking at the New York Stock Exchange. I will have by the time this this airs. Tokenization is progressing at a very, very, let's say, fast pace.

And everyone is trying to outrun each other. So in the same FOMO that I'm seeing in the anthropic side, we are seeing this with inside the crypto when it goes to volumes. And it goes and kind of the dollar is moving into it. The banks are trying to compete with the crypto companies. Crypto companies are trying to race ahead. That's good. That means competition is happening. Capitalism is going.

That's a positive thing. I'm getting more interest from hedge funds and traditional investors. I've done large presentations through Investors Intelligence, which is one of the preeminent publications covering asset allocators. So I've done one for public pension plans. I've done one for endowments and foundations. I did one for family offices. All of them are interested in having crypto as their digital assets as a percentage of their portfolio.

And I think what people have to recognize is when you get back into the trade off side again, hey, I want to invest in digital assets. Okay, what's the trade off? Okay. Well, it's very binary for people. They either believe in it or they don't. Well, I think that's no longer binary. I think people are viewing it as an investment, which is, well, I'm only going to put like one to three percent in.

Well, that's from zero. And I see more people talking about it. And remember, they have a good chunk of their money in what I call illiquid assets, private equity, private credit, VC, real estate. And I think what tokenization is going to do to those buckets is bring price discovery. It's going to bring liquidity. I don't think that's a good thing for that bucket. That has been the place that traditional investors have put their money because there was no price discovery. They didn't have to deal with volatility. Remember, the people managing money at the endowment, the pension plan, and the family offices all have one common thread. They are judged based on their performance, and they love having an asset that produces

6% to 10% a year with no volatility. They love it. It's gone. Tokenization will end that whole feature. So what you're seeing in private credit right now, for everyone watching who's like, when is this going to collapse? It will never collapse. This is not going to be a credit crisis. Again, that is like bubble talk in AI. Neither one is going to happen. What will happen is we're in a credit cycle. And because software, a lot of the companies and a lot of the money invested in there is not there. But it's not just that. AI will destroy lots of businesses over the next five years. And people that borrowed money for the long term, by definition, they're either a in trouble secondly they need to borrow money it's not hardware stuff and they're at risk and

so all of those investments to me are going to be in trouble because once you see the marks on a lot of these there's a reason why bdcs are trading at such a discount which is an active vehicle kind of like the tokenized version of private credit which is already there and it's trading at a severe discount so i believe that crypto also benefits from the other buckets bonds are uninvestable. Real estate, I don't think is investable. I can go through the whole list of them. I don't think they're investable anymore the way they were in the past once you bring the volatility into their equation. If they're only going to produce 6% to 8% return, but now their vol is going to be 10%, well, all of a sudden, Bitcoin and all the crypto world, once it has a

positive Sharpe ratio with momentum going. So I have continued to say and will continue to say the network effects are in place. It becoming an asset for the investors of the fiat world is going forward every single day. It started with the ETF. It's happening. We have the administration still in charge. I don't think Clarity Act is going to be a positive or negative in the bigger sense of the world. I think the Genius Act was a major, major accomplishment to get it through. I do think Clarity will likely get through. But at 50-50 in the prediction markets, we just have to assume it may not. So I'm in a belief that we're going to continue to be. The only thing that needs to happen, and I said this this weekend, I do not like trying to

pick the bottom of bear markets, just like picking the top of bull markets is a very, very fruitless task. I use moving averages. I always have. I talked about it over the weekend. I think moving averages are an admission that the market knows more than you do. And right now, if I say the market's going to go higher when Bitcoin has not been able to break out and neither has the entire crypto ecosystem. I think you're trying to be smarter than the market, which is saying no. And whether it's the OGs, whether it's everything, is there a possibility that Bitcoin goes back to 15,000 for three years and strategy blows up and all this happens? Of course, it's part of the distribution. I don't think that's going to happen. But I want to wait to break some moving

averages. It worked well for me with Micron. And I do believe if you've learned one thing over the last 12 months, we are in the age of parabolics. It used to be a negative for Bitcoin to trade with a 70, 80 volatility. Well, guess what, guys? Everything working on the AI trade is trading at a 70 or 80 volatility, which means the stuff that's working is trading the way crypto used to. And there's one big benefit. That means all investors are getting used to these parabolic charts. So once Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, Sui, I don't want to leave any of them out, all of them, Bettenzer, once they have those hockey stick type looks that turn into polls, I think at that point, you're going to have all of the crowd that's looking for something that can diversify their portfolio is coming in.

And I think that's going to happen over the next 12 months. On the concept of or the theme of tokenization, how do you see that playing out? You mentioned you're speaking at NYSE tomorrow. What products do you see come to market first and how do they get incorporated into the TradFi system and begin to really enable price discovery, particularly in these traditionally illiquid markets? It'll be similar to what we've seen with ETFs, meaning the easiest ones. So we've already got money market funds. We've already got treasuries. Those are already happening. I do think, you know, Apollo doing a credit fund, going through the whole crypto side and

tokenization, getting it on chain. I think more and more of that is going to happen. I mentioned on the video that I'm going to start doing a YouTube converting the crypto ecosystem into what effectively would be like sectors inside the traditional finance world. And the reason for that is I want people to start looking at crypto not as one thing, but as a group of organisms that are always moving differently. I've always said and I believe Bitcoin is the S&P 500 of the digital asset world. It is amorphous. It changes over time. if you have a great idea as a token and it's working and all of a sudden it's gone because there's a better innovation that comes and replaces it, when that money of that failed

token is looking for a stable place, it'll go into Bitcoin. Well, that's what happens with the S&P 500. When people want to take a basis trade, they invest in single name stocks. When they want to invest in the index, they just put it into it. I showed in the weekend video that the correlation and the overlay between me creating a 40 name tokenized basket, which includes six public equities, including things like Circle, along with 34 tokens broken up by sectors for eight different sectors, it looks just like Bitcoin. It's almost a direct overlay. And I equal weighted it. So those are the proof positives to me that the ecosystem of crypto effectively represents what Bitcoin is. And the reason that's important for people is Bitcoin is the place that most

traditional investors are going to have the comfort to go into first. So what I invention happening with tokenization is we gradually just keep adding things in there that are trading 24 7 stocks will happen the reason the new york stock exchange cares well they're in competition with robin hood they're in competition with uh the nasdaq they're in competition with everyone ice cares about this they probably are a little late to the game but they recognize that if they don't offer these things 24 hours and they look at what hyper liquid is doing and they look at what all these things are doing, they all recognize that if they want to survive five years from now, they have to get involved in it. So I think it'll be a slow process. It'll probably happen

faster than people want. But from a big picture perspective, I view tokenization as basically what ETFs were. For those people who haven't seen me speak, I ended up when I came back from Brazil at Morgan Stanley and had success over there, I took over the S&P options book. But then they also gave me the ETF business. And this is before the ETF business started going through its hockey stick. ETFs were a product that the majority of people did not think were going to do well. And there was someone at Morgan Stanley named Shell Johnson who basically said to me, there will be two things. There will be ETFs and hedge funds. And he was basically saying mutual funds will be disrupted, which is effectively what's happened. They're not gone.

But if you look at the ability for them to outperform the market, if you look at the fees that have gone on, it has pressured the entire industry. And obviously, we've seen this massive growth and passive investing. Tokenization is going to have the same impact on our world. And you will end up having, as Bill Bartheiden and I spoke and talked about this, you're going to have a situation where you've got TradFi assets combined with tokens as one package. That's why I wanted to create an index of crypto tokens and crypto public companies, because eventually Apple will be in the same thing as BitTensor, which will be in the same thing as a treasury and this is the way you start getting let's say the the new version of risk

parity or the new version of this digital assets will be added to the mix so i think all of that's coming marty very very soon yeah it seems to be the big theme um i remember i was in abu dhabi i think december of 24 and everybody there was talking about tokenization and that's uh that's one thing i'm interested to see um is like we're seeing with ethereum now you have a bunch of people jumping ships there saying all the value is going to accrue these second layers and there's no reason to hold the eth token and with the regression of second layers on bitcoin uh whether it's arc liquid uh spark e-cashments i could see a world where a lot of this consolidates on top the bitcoin stack and that's what to be honest the the tokenization um sort of the tokenization

theme itself is something that i've been observing but i haven't dove at first into um and that's as a somebody who is more aligned with the vision that that if it can be done on east and it makes sense or any of these other uh blockchains it will ultimately come to bitcoin i think bitcoin's infrastructure moves way slower obviously than than the other cryptocurrencies but i think that's that's one thing i would uh i would put out there to many who are skeptical of that that theory of of bitcoin and things consolidating on its stack is i would pay attention to what's happening on bitcoin second layers now and uh i think you can imagine a world where if tokenization is a thing people deem it necessary and valuable it could happen on

on Bitcoin as well. Yeah. And OK, let me just take what you said and combine it with recent news and something for people to think about. So let's assume that you've got GPUs from NVIDIA and then you have Cerebros, which just came out with its IPO. And if you go listen to the difference in the approach and you think about what you just talked about with Ethereum and Bitcoin and what's there. I think the world is not about there'll be no NVIDIA, there'll only be Cerebras or there'll only be NVIDIA, there won't be Cerebras. I think it's a very similar argument from my perspective, meaning you just don't know when the volumes are so massive and the velocity is so big. And that's what I believe in. The reason I'm optimistic

with very little doubt on crypto is that I know that the financial guardrails cannot handle the volume that's going on. I mean, it's not even a question. So we know crypto is going to be used. We know crypto has to be used because the agentic side is just too explosive and too fast. People just need to go read the Dell earnings commentary from last week and think about what it means for crypto with the amount of traffic that Dell talked about and how explosive their numbers were. This is going to happen inside the crypto world. And so whether it's built on the Bitcoin network or I think it's going to be built on all of them. I think once something hits a constraint, there'll be a move to another one. Once something isn't, maybe you don't need all

the speed, but it's cheaper over here. That's what will end up happening. That's what happens with an ecosystem is it depends on the cost. So in the case of GPUs, they are significantly slower than Cerebras, like not even close. And GPUs need memory. Cerebras needs SRAM. So instead of high bandwidth memory, which is in shortage. There's no shortage of SRAM. I am not a semiconductor expert, but what I do know in listening to, I guess it's Andrew Feldman speak about it three times now in the last week, they spent a long time to create something. So when you're looking and debating either or, it's never either or. In the same way there's trade-offs, there's plenty of room for Amazon, Google, and Microsoft to be cloud providers. One of them doesn't win. There's

plenty of them that have different strengths bedrock now gives amazon a very big lift according to semi-analysis relative to google google is making a mistake they're using all of their deep mind stuff on there amazon's not doing any model stuff on theirs it's all these again trade-offs so i think both networks will be fine and i think people should not get into the this won't be that or this won't be this when you have tremendous amounts of volume i don't think you know what's going to happen it's the same way when you look around the arteries at philly or new york When the traffic gets built, you're taking roads off thing that you didn't think you'd ever take because the goal is to get home as fast as possible. Same thing is going to happen in crypto.

It's going to be too much volume. Yeah, sometimes you get diverted through Frankfurt and it's a quicker drive, but it's not. It doesn't feel as safe. But I was smirking there as you were describing the congestion. Things will pop. We saw that with stable coins. stablecoin started tether started on bitcoin via the master uh via the omni protocol excuse me and then east and then with slana and then tron now it's back on lightning so you see um that

infrastructure sort of adapt based off of what's cheapest and fastest for stablecoin specifically and think about stripe i mean when stripe purchased bridge and i and i remember i just started my YouTube, it had been like three months into it. And I don't remember if I, I think I did a YouTube specifically on the purchase or I wrote a paper. I can't know. I think I did. I did a video on it. It's on my YouTube. It's back from whatever it was, October of 24. But what was most interesting to me is that Stripe had kind of left the crypto game. And then all of a sudden they made this purchase because in the sessions they said, okay. And yes, Donald Trump kind of being in front and them realizing what was happening but again i think they started to see oh my god that's how

quickly things have changed since 2024 and i i just i think it's important for people to realize we're talking about 2024 i mean we're not even two years from them purchasing bridge and now stablecoin transactions across the globe are now a major story so i think a lot can change in a short amount of time when you get into this volume thing yeah and you can tell internally at stripe they had a oh my gosh we need to be on this because the multiple they paid on i think bridge was doing like 10 million dollars exactly it's insane yeah um this has been awesome as always i want to be respectful of your time uh is there anything we didn't touch on you think we should leave the audience with um go next go next yeah sorry you're a sixers fan i'm sorry i'm just

happy i'm just happy okc is not in it uh i can be i can be happy with that thing i don't care who is in it i've waited a long time i've been through so many painful years and i spent so much money going to games when i was uh older and when i was younger sneaking into the garden when i didn't have a dollar to my name so i'm i'm i'm hoping that this is the year uh at a minimum i've had an enjoyable time that's my that's my last spiel on um well my my brother-in-law is a new yorker and a Knicks fan, so in support of him and now you, I will cheer on the Knicks. I appreciate it. Jordy, it's always a pleasure, sir.

Thank you. Same here, Marty. Always happy to do it. Peace and love, freaks. Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC. If you've made it this far, I imagine you got some value out of the episode. If so, please share it far and wide with your friends and family. We're looking to get the word out there.

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