TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #771: Why AI Demand Won’t Collapse with Mel Mattison

Starting point is 00:00:00 you've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free if you talk about a fed just gone nuts all all the central banks going nuts so it's all acting like safe haven i believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency bitcoin wins in the world of fiat currencies bitcoin is the victor i mean And that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin. If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. Bill Madison, welcome back to the show, sir. Well, thank you for having me, Marty. I appreciate it.

Starting point is 00:00:43 Yeah, well, we're going to talk about a lot of things today. AI, is it real? Is it hype? Is it a mixture of the two? We've got the Fed, obviously. Warsh has taken the helm since we last spoke. We've got some micro stuff to talk about in terms of individual memory stocks that you're following. And then we can get into the fiscal side of things, how much debt the U.S. federal government is

Starting point is 00:01:08 and how they can sustain that debt and all the entitlement programs that they've built up. And then probably ending it with Scott Besant's call for a new economic regime at the New York Economic Club a couple of weeks ago, which has been a hot topic in my circles. We covered it this morning on the weekly show I do with my partner, John Arnold at 1031. And I'd love to get your thoughts on that. But I think just starting with the hottest chick in the room right now, which is AI, how are you reading this? Well, AI is definitely one of two main forces that I see driving markets

Starting point is 00:01:47 right now. I think it's AI. And then what I want to just kind of encapsulate, because a lot, there's a lot of interplay, it's just kind of geo macro stuff. And, you know, that's Iran, that's Ukraine, that's the Fed, that's fiscal deficits. And those are things that the reason I categorize those together is because they're not related to like earnings, right? So another simple way to say it is what's going on in the broad market, like broad macro and what's going on with earnings and company specific and earnings are all about AI. And I, I just cannot see a way that AI is going away. Like, I think there's a lot of people out there that are talking about, you know, who's going to be the winners, who's going to be the losers. And I do agree. That's

Starting point is 00:02:40 not the easiest game to play but i do think there are certain segments that it's it's very hard to argue like for example why sk hynix at four times pe should be trading cheaper than it is like like if you say mel what's what's the base case where micron at like seven times forward earnings is just the earnings are going to fall off the cliff cliff between now and the end of the decade And I just can't picture that case because it's like, OK, is it going to be open source or closed source? Who knows? But at the end of the day, if compute demand is going to just go up exponentially, it's going to need memory unless you're stipulating that there's going to be some newfound memory like breakthrough. And I think if you're kind of hurdle rate for investing in something is that there's it's impossible for some black swan new technology to take it out, then there's literally nothing to invest in. Like, you know, I mean, I mean, are you going to invest in Bitcoin?

Starting point is 00:03:48 Well, quantum could come in. Are you going to invest in U.S. treasuries? Well, the government could collapse and all of a sudden Congress could say we're not going to raise the debt ceiling. Are you going like if you literally want to say there's no black swan impossible downside, then you can't invest in anything. So I will grant you there could be some big memory breakthrough. But absent that, you have companies like Micron signing multi-year agreements, trading at six, seven times earnings. You have capacity growing at two, 300 percent a year, not capacity, demand of what people want growing at two, 300 percent a year. While capacity is only growing at 20, 30 percent a year.

Starting point is 00:04:37 And you have companies like Apple saying we've got to raise prices. You've got I mean, if if if there's not truly a memory shortage, if there's an Ed Zitron, you know, false narrative out there that this is all B.S., then why is Apple raising prices? Like because then there's no demand, like there's no problem. Why? Why would Apple want to raise prices if if this is all just going to collapse in the next three months? And I just can't see it. And I think Ken Griffin put out a post the other day about like the days of like hedge funds monitoring pocket or parking lots and saying I'm betting on this quarterly earnings like that's the old alpha. The new alpha is like looking at this stuff and taking longer term views. And I don't know if Micron is going to be eight hundred dollars or twelve hundred dollars a month from now, but I'll bet it hits three thousand in the next 12 months. I'll just bet it does because it's just too cheap. It's just too cheap not to double or triple from here. And I think people that think, oh, it can't do it. You know, what has Bitcoin

Starting point is 00:05:44 done? What did gold do between 1980 and 19, excuse me, 1979, 1971, when we were taking off gold standard in 1980 it went up 25x and so i think people that think like these things have run their course um they have to look at the fundamentals and micron at seven times sk hynix at four times uh the korean stock market which is collapsing in the last 24 hours and nine percent down is now trading at the cheapest b multiple it has in like the last 48 months like everything's just keeps getting cheaper and people just want to say you got to sell because it's all a big bubble and i just don't see it yeah i mean the the ed zitron call out it's funny because i've seen his commentary and do the sort of the the cycle of going through cnbc bloomberg and getting clipped

Starting point is 00:06:44 out on x and he's saying there's nothing there nobody wants these things and then i'm juxtaposing that to my usage of it which has gone up i think personally exponentially if you're just looking at all the agents and subagents were running here and then you project that forward of more people adopting this particularly agents and we're definitely not even at the one percent adoption threshold of everyday people and then you think of like robotics and self-driving cars and all the computes and the memory demand there is like exponentially more like it's it's ridiculous and and ed i i've listened to i'll be honest with you i've probably listened 30 to 40 hours of him on podcasts, because I do not want to listen to a bunch of bulls

Starting point is 00:07:28 telling me how great AI is and just buy Micron. I want to listen to the people that are saying, here's the problem with the story. And he has certain points. But the thing about him is one thing I'll say about him, he's one of the cleverest speakers I've ever heard. Like he is so quick and fast with the remark but he's so quick and fast with the remark that often you'll listen to him and you're not really processing what he's logically saying because if you really break down logically what he's saying it really doesn't make any sense like he basically says stuff like well anthropic and a open ai can never be profitable that's one of his key arguments that it it's all a subsidized good they'll never be the demand for it it's never going to be

Starting point is 00:08:16 profitable. They're the only buyers of compute. But then at the same time, he'll talk about how like open source models are much cheaper. People want to use them. Well, if AI actually has a use case, even if it is open source models, it still requires compute. It still requires the hardware. It still requires memory. Does that mean that OpenAI is going to be a $4 trillion company? I honestly don't know. He might be right. OpenAI might not be the best buy right now, right? I mean, like if I was a private investor and that's what I did for a number of years was basically secondary market investments in large private companies, would I be telling people go into open ai and anthropic right now no i wouldn't but does that mean that ai is not going to happen

Starting point is 00:09:12 and i think if you go back and people love to compare it to the dot-com boom so let's compare it to dot-com did pets.com you know blow up no but did the internet i mean blow up meaning become a huge success but did the internet become a huge success yes and and look at the top companies in the quote-unquote mag 7 you had apple that went public in like the 80s microsoft same thing these things went through that they had huge market caps they came out of it you also had companies like google that weren't even public until after the dot-com boom um tesla same thing and so like the internet and everything that happened there was real and it was a huge thing And it became a big deal. Did we have a huge blow up top and then a collapse and then an even a slow but steady rise to even greater market?

Starting point is 00:10:09 I mean, what was the Nasdaq when it collapsed? I think it was like. Four thousand to like thirty thousand today. OK, so like you're you're telling me like, oh, my God, look at the dot com. You could have bought the Nasdaq at the very top of the dot com boom and left it in your IRA. If you're a 30 year old guy and you're coming back and you're 50 right now, you've still got 10 years before you can access it. And it's like, you know what? Almost 10x. So I think if you zoom out and you look at what's going on, AI is not going away. crypto is not going away bitcoin's not going away the fiscal mess we're in is not going away it's getting worse every day that debasement trade that was so hot last year that let gold get over

Starting point is 00:10:55 five thousand dollars an ounce bitcoin over 120 silver over 100 that's not going away it's just we're going through all these micro rotations and every time something happens like meta says oh are cutting back on compute and then, you know, skyrockets, you know, 20 percent in the next two trading days, which is what Meta did. You know, it's it's it's the money's rotating. And the thing is, is the money's got to go somewhere and the money just keeps building. It's the 401ks. It's now the Trump accounts. It's the fiscal deficits. It's the this whole merry-go-round that has led the S&P to go from 666 in 2009 at the GFC lows to over 7600 today, it's going to keep happening. And if you let yourself get shaken out every time there's a 20, 20 or 15 percent pullback,

Starting point is 00:11:59 I think you're just missing the big picture. Yeah. I mean, before we get in the Trump accounts, which I know you want to cover with those passive flows that many people aren't talking about. And said this multiple times over the last six months like this seems like uh there's like an equities market not like a bailout but like a mechanism to produce passive flows before we get to that the ponzi needs more sources yeah and that's a good one yeah and that's a great we're going to keep doing it so you want to fight it go ahead like bring it back to like zitron some of his criticisms like one of which being a lot of these companies particularly the hyperscalers have gone from buying back stock to hitting the atm to issuing stock raising equity um and even going

Starting point is 00:12:39 into more debt so they're highlighting that as like oh this is the end i've been thinking about this a lot too because you do want to check your priors and be like okay where where am i maybe having a blind spot here but like when i see that it's like you could take that signal that way which is like these companies are desperate they're diluting equity holders to raise cash to keep piling money into a loser is what zitron would say but the other one is like well maybe there was just a period of time post 2008 where the allocation of capital warranted and the sort of risk matrix that these companies have warranted like hey we just buy back stock try to use eps and now there's finally an opportunity to to deploy capital into not only deploy capital

Starting point is 00:13:23 but deploy capital at scales that we haven't seen that makes sense to do this so like just trying to get in the mind of like the boardrooms of the hyperscalers specifically and that decision around buying stock back or hitting the atm raising debts and does the opportunity of the ai infrastructure build out is it is it so large that it warrants these types of actions yeah i mean everybody used to complain when they were doing all these buybacks like they have nothing to invest in and it's a bad sign because they're buying back stock and now it's like oh no well they're not buying back stock anymore and so look i mean apple to me just hitting new highs today and it's up over 50 in the last year i mean like that's something i want to stay away from

Starting point is 00:14:09 like we we just keep going through these micro rotations and it's like okay apple's gonna have to raise prices it's up over 50 in the last 12 months it's at an all-time high like maybe i want to go into other things. About a month ago, I basically said, I think this sell the suppliers narrative is overdone and look to buy Amazon, Meta, Google and Microsoft. And they're breaking out. I mean, you know, the these stocks have not made a new high since October. They're still not at new highs. So I do a little tweet once in a while that's essentially just a basic basket of the four hyperscalers and look at where they're at. And they are up well over 10% from the lows just like 10 days ago. They are not yet breaking out. And I think that there's two things that I

Starting point is 00:15:10 think Zitron has wrong. And I think the market is concerned about that they shouldn't. One is debt. I did a post a few weeks ago where I basically said, how long would it take for each of the hyperscalers to pay off all of their debt off of cash flows if they stopped AI spend. And every single one of them could pay off every dollar of debt they've raised within two quarters with free cash flow. Meaning if all of a sudden AI is a bubble, AI is stupid, it all sucks, and we're going to essentially, we're Google, we're Amazon, Meta, we've raised some debt. How long would it take from free cash flow, essentially our paycheck if we were employees, to pay off our credit card bill? The average is like 3.2 months, and they could all pay them off within less than six months.

Starting point is 00:16:03 Now, what happens after six months when they're now debt-free? Now they're going to trade at price-to-earnings, and then you look at a meta, and you say, oh, it's trading at 18 times or 20 times. And now they have no more AI spend to do. They have no more debt to pay. They have no interest expense. And that's if AI fails. So if Zitron's right and AI is this big nothing burger and the big everybody's going to he's he said things like we're going to look back in a few years and say, what the hell are we doing building all this compute? Well, then, number one, you've got to take away the threat. Right. You got to say, well, there's no threat to Google because people might say, well, Google's no, if AI is a nothing burger and it's going away, then Google's going to still have its

Starting point is 00:16:50 moat. Amazon's going to have its moat. Microsoft's going to have its enterprise software moat. So if AI is truly a nothing burger, as Zitron says, then there's no threat to the business model of the hyperscalers. If AI is truly a nothing burger and they can literally pay off all of their debt and go back to these free cash flow monsters buying back their stock with both hands within six months then what is the risk buying meta below a market multiple like there is no risk then if that's the

Starting point is 00:17:23 narrative he paints now he doesn't really talk about another narrative which i actually think could be the actual narrative that plays out which is that ai is going to become this ubiquitous huge force greater than the internet greater than you know the typewriter the word processor a lot of the recent big inventions maybe even greater than radio or tv um going back to the railroads i think is what a lot of people think is the best analogy if it really is the greatest technology since the 1800s and the railroads and the railroads became huge and they became huge money makers, but there were boom towns, huge boom towns. Um, I was in Colorado hiking, uh, last month and there are these ghost towns and they spring up and they existed for like 10 years

Starting point is 00:18:14 because, you know, the railroad went through, they, they mined out all the silver or lead or copper that was there. Um, and then they disappeared because it was mined out or, the population just gave up of being there. But during that 10-year period, I mean, people made fortunes. And so do I think like you can just buy Micron and hold it for the next 40 years and retire? No. But do I think Micron's got a longer window of stellar returns than six months to a year? Yes. I think it's got a multi-year time horizon for outperformance. And I think a lot of these AI names do. I think a lot of these chip stocks do. I think if you look at the Korean market, which has been selling off, it does. But you look at the Korean market, it's 50% of the

Starting point is 00:19:06 Korean market is two stocks. It's SK, Heineken, and Samsung. The average stock in the S&P 500 trades within a 50% band every year. Well, if two stocks make up half of your index, and they're actually a little more volatile than your average stock, They're going to trade in a 60, 70, 80% band over the course of the year. That's going to drive 30, 40% fluctuations in the index. That should be expected. But what do investors get in return for increased volatility and risk? They get return.

Starting point is 00:19:40 And I think people that are looking at Micron hitting the 50-day and buying it at 910, they might not be happy they did that a week from now. I think they're going to be very happy they did that six months from now, a year from now. And so I'm not here to say, look, this is what's going to happen. But if I had to do a short term bet, I think what these stocks are waiting for is mega cap earnings coming in the next two weeks. And they want to hear Sundype Pichai. They want to hear Jassy.

Starting point is 00:20:14 They want to hear these people say we're still going to be spending. And they are because they'd be shooting themselves in the foot if they came out and said, you know what, this whole AI thing was a waste. But they might say things like, look, we're experiencing some supply constraints on power or, you know, there's some pushback on data center build out. And so our capex might actually not increase that much, might even decrease a little bit. Initial market reaction might be, oh, my gosh, it's all over. But I think what people are going to realize is this. This is just not going away like it's the spending's not going away. They've been worried about it since 2022 when this whole thing started. It goes through these micro rotations and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, my gosh, there's open claw. Oh, my gosh, there's, you know, Anthropic is cash flow or heading into profitability. But, oh, no, they're not because actually, you know, Colossus, they gave me.

Starting point is 00:21:15 I mean, all this stuff keeps going on. And it's just meanwhile, the valuations keep going up, the profits keep going up. and I think waiting and trying to call the top has just been the dumbest thing you could possibly do because it it's it it is going to top and and I've had some thoughts that that's probably not too far away I don't think it's necessarily five years away could be two three years away I think it's going to have to do more with fiscal concerns um than than the AI thing but look the market's not going to be going up 25, 35 percent a year forever. And there's probably going to be a 30, 40 percent pullback, I think, by the end of the decade. But I just don't see

Starting point is 00:22:01 it happening this year. And I think the earliest it could possibly happen is going to be next year because the spending is just in place. I mean, the gears are going and you can't stop the train to kind of borrow Lynn Alden phrase, you can't stop the AI train on a dime. It could stop eventually, but you can't stop it next quarter. It would be a multi-year phase out of it. And I think in the meantime, earnings are just, they're at unbelievable record paces. We're going to do over $400 in earnings in the S&P 500. The PE is cheaper now on the S&P than it was at the beginning of the year. You've got companies like Samsung, which I know isn't in the S&P, but it's going to do over 200 billion dollars in profit this year. And people are saying, why is this a trillion

Starting point is 00:23:00 dollar company? Well, I mean, if I told you, look, I can make one hundred thousand dollars a year the next five years in a row, I will give every single dollar to you. And then at the end of it, You're also going to own every single dollar I make after that for the rest of my life. I think a million dollars is $500,000 is a pretty cheap price to pay. And that's what people are paying. I mean, I think some of the cheapest stocks I've ever seen in my life are these Korean memory names. I mean, it's just I just don't understand how like three times earnings growing at 65, 70 percent.

Starting point is 00:23:49 And that's what I mean, they've been growing well over that. But this is what's forecast for fiscal year 27. These peg ratios are ridiculous and people are selling it and saying it's a bubble because they believe what? that somebody is going to come out and there's going to be a memory fairy that figures out or look, anthropic and open AI can blow up. That's not going to hurt Micron or SK Hynix or Samsung in the medium to long term. In the short term, yes, open AI blew up. It's going to hurt it. But AI is not going away. It requires memory. That's like saying, you know, when I was a kid, a big computer was the Commodore 64. If the Commodore 64 blows up and nobody wants to buy

Starting point is 00:24:38 another Commodore 64 or another Atari 2600, then the whole video game industry is dead. Like, I mean, no, that's not the case. These were the biggest two companies when I was a kid. They dominated it. Commodore 64, Jungle Hunt, you know, Atari 2600, Pac-Man. I mean, these were the games the cartridges dominated video games if you said those companies are going to be jack s you know within a matter of years therefore get out of all the video game suppliers how i mean how did that go for you and that's what people are saying as zitron saying open ai and anthropic are shit companies those are the word he he likes to use he basically says they're scams he says they're never going to be able to make a profit and they're going to go away

Starting point is 00:25:24 And because of that, the entire basically financial system is going to blow up and all of this debt of the hyperscalers is going to go away. Even referenced in a recent podcast, the possibility of NVIDIA going bankrupt, like literally like he's talking about NVIDIA possibly. He said it was unlikely, but he said it's possible NVIDIA is going to go bankrupt. I mean, Marty, this amount of fear mongering and then it's played into you. listen to the kids booing at college like there's this ai a lot of people have talked about sam aldman and dario modi being like the you know it's like mussolini and hitler like they're they're very bad spokesmen like nobody likes these guys they they come across as arrogant they come across as condescending they they just they're not relatable and the stuff that they say a lot of

Starting point is 00:26:22 the times, it just puts people off the wrong way. And I think there's this whole thing where this is not going to necessarily end in OpenAI being a $10 trillion company. I don't know if it does. But even if OpenAI eventually becomes a Lucent Technologies, that doesn't mean that there's not going to be a Microsoft and an Amazon emerging from the internet slash now AI ecosystem. And I just think trying to pick the exact time that this is going to happen, like, okay, next week, you know, they're going to say CapEx is over and it's going to crash. I think you just want to, you want to stay invested stay for the long term but i think you also want to really stay diversified and not have everything in chips and ai you want to have emerging markets you like not just korea

Starting point is 00:27:26 but things like brazil you want to have bitcoin you want to have gold you want to have a material sector you want to you don't want to put all your money in chips it's number one it's too volatile you'll get blown out and number two the rotation is going to continue and i think we're just you know probably on the verge of getting started uh back into the whole gold bitcoin to basement trade what's up freaks this episode is brought to you by blocks bitcoin ecosystem you probably know cash app you probably know square you definitely know bitkey if you've been listening to the show for the last couple of years what matters most is that these are not disconnected random products they are part of a broader push to make bitcoin easier to buy easier to hold and

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Starting point is 00:28:49 a crowd health member my family and i have been crowd health members for five years now literally this month five years ago we joined crowd health we've had two babies we've had multiple health events and we're never going back to health insurance crowd health is crowdfunded healthcare So you sign up for CrowdHealth, you pay a monthly fee, you help out with other people's bills, and it's significantly cheaper than health insurance. We were on COBRA as a family of three when I left my last job before I went full-time to CFTC. Went on the CrowdHealth, now as a family of five, we pay, I believe, $700 a month. It's significantly cheaper. They're going to negotiate prices lower for you. They've consistently negotiated healthcare prices as much as 50%,

Starting point is 00:29:30 60, 80% in many cases. They help out with babies. If you have a pregnancy, you pay the first $3,000 and the crowd covers the rest. If you have a regular health event, you pay $500 and the crowd pays the rest. Go to joincrowdhealth.com. Sign up today. Use the code TFTC. Opt out of health insurance. I'm uninsured, baby, and I love it. Use the code TFTC at joincrowdhealth.com. You'll get $99 a month for the first three months that you're on the crowd health platform in the community. Bitcoiners, you found sovereign money. Now find sovereign health and sovereign health care. That's a good segue into the next topic, which is the Fed and macro, which we were discussing before we hit record. A lot of people are beginning to price in rate hikes later this

Starting point is 00:30:12 month. I think it's at 50-50 right now. If you look at the probability of there being a rate hike or them holding it steady, what's your take on this wash again? Coming in between now and our last interview and uh how are you viewing all this marsh at the helm i i do not think there's going to be any rate hikes i think there's going to be rate cuts this year um somebody who you know i respect i've referenced him many times is jordy visser he's talked about a potential for warsh to hike actually in july and do a surprise hike this would essentially like assert fenn independence but then talk it down and say that's it um so like a 25 basis point hike possibly but nobody is even talking about like a major hiking cycle and if you listen to warsh

Starting point is 00:31:06 i think he comes off a little conceited sometimes too i think he probably needs a better haircut but he just does not um strike me as someone who's oblivious to the broader macro concerns um as an example in his first uh press conference he was asked kind of a leading question about our financial conditions loose and it was kind of a left-leaning journalist that that you know wanted him to somehow argue they're not. And he basically came back right away. He said, look, in housing, no, financial conditions are not loose. If you're a hyperscaler looking to borrow debt and spreads are at all time heights, then yeah, financial conditions are, excuse me, financial conditions are not very tight. You know, it's pretty easy to borrow right

Starting point is 00:32:02 now. And so we have this tale of two economies. We have a housing market, which has been the primary driver of the economy about half of the time, right? If you look at, okay, what happened when the dot-com boom bust? Housing took over. And then we had like a five, six-year housing bubble. If you look at net worth of Americans, it's still mostly in real estate. So the biggest market in this country for your average American is real estate. It's the house. um and that has just done nothing in recent years really um there have been certain markets um that are extremely supply constrained um with kind of uh blue uh political leanings where they they like in new york where like you know they're just not building anything and you know rents are

Starting point is 00:32:57 i think rents are over five thousand dollars a month right now for an average one bedroom in Manhattan um you know yeah prices have gone up in places like that but if you live like where I do in North Carolina I mean you know the house has not moved up or down more or less in the last four years you know you got to go back to the last world cup you know to see uh you know house prices cheaper or more expensive than they are right now I mean like housing just has not moved And at the same time during that period, earnings, nominal earnings, and I'm using nominal because housing prices have moved, are up like over 20%. So for your average American, if you want to buy a house in Durham, it's 20% cheaper now than it was four years ago. People say, well, what are you talking about, 20% cheaper?

Starting point is 00:33:50 Because houses have not moved, nominal earnings are up that much, compounded over the last four years. and i can i can go down my street and look at zillow and look at like what did a house sell for in like september 2022 and you put a house on the market right now it's going to sell for the same thing and then if you look at what is the average you know hourly earnings increase nominal terms not real um it's up over 20 percent compounded over the last four years i mean that's a 20 percent reduction in housing. And that's basically the biggest segment of wealth in the entire U.S. economy. And the most directly interest rate sensitive segment of the economy. So if you're Warsh and you're saying, OK, if I raise rates, what am I going to do? I'm going to hurt housing.

Starting point is 00:34:46 That's going to hurt construction spending. That's going to hurt Joe Schmo American, where most of their wealth is in housing. Is it going to stop OpenAI from spending? Is it going to stop Meta from borrowing because their interest rate on their debt just went up 25 basis points? No, it's not. And so I think Warsh recognizes

Starting point is 00:35:12 that the Fed's interest rate tool is a very blunt tool and that by raising rates, he's not going to stop you know electricity inflation because of ai like that's on a course that's absolutely separate from whatever you know the two-year yield is at and so all he's gonna do is hurt the average person um and also uh stymie bank lending which i think he wants to stimulate um and that and that goes into Besson and Besson's speech about, you know, tokenization, about deregulation. And so there's

Starting point is 00:35:52 this big strategic narrative that I think the Trump administration has right. And then at the same time, we're fighting this big tactical narrative that I think the Trump administration has wrong. So they keep making these tactical mistakes, these fumbles, but their long-term strategic vision of embracing digital assets, embracing deregulation, letting AI, letting America compete, bringing back manufacturing, all these broad strategic goals, one big beautiful build, appreciation, tax cuts, all of these are huge strategic tailwinds. But then at the same time, we keep getting these huge tactical headwinds, whether it's tariffs, the Rand War, whatever. And this is the wall of worry. The market keeps fighting and we keep getting the

Starting point is 00:36:44 ups and downs. We keep getting the rotations. And then at the end of the day, you look back and you say, oh, my gosh, Apple's up 50 percent in the last 12 months. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the big strategy from the Senate and Trump administration, what they're getting right long term, and then follow that up with what they're getting wrong and how they can maybe right course there? Yeah, I think, like I said, what they're getting right is deregulation. I think one thing that has not been understood enough is the relationship of the balance sheet, the interest rates, and what Warsh is saying. So I think this is where the market has been getting it wrong. The market looked at Warsh. They see him as a hawk. They think he's going to decrease the

Starting point is 00:37:37 balance sheet. That's going to decrease money supply. The inflation and inflationary aspects are primarily driven by money supply. Money supply does not necessarily need to be increased by the Fed balance sheet. It can be increased by bank lending. It can be increased by the velocity of money. And those are the things that Walsh really wants to increase. He wants to start, and this is already starting, move back more lending from banks and less from private credit. Why is that important? If I'm a millionaire and I've got $100,000 I want to put into a bond issue and I do it through private credit, I take that $100,000. It essentially gets withdrawn from the economy and it goes, lends it to the company. Net-net, it's zero. I had $100,000 spending power.

Starting point is 00:38:33 I now lose that $100,000 spending power. I loaned it to a company. They got $100,000 of spending power. If a bank says, I want to loan you $100,000, they credit your account $100,000 and then they debit their liabilities, a hundred thousand, there's no decrease. It's money printing. There've been so many people fed, I'm a big central bank guy. The biggest printers of money are not central banks. It's commercial banks. Commercial banks, the reason they're regulated the way they are, the reason there's the OCC, the reason there's the FDIC, the reason there is the Fed is they can literally make credits on their balance sheet, excuse me, debits on their balance sheet for their own liabilities and credit you with an asset.

Starting point is 00:39:27 That's money printing. That's money creation. We had so much money being created through private credit. That's essentially, you know, putting a ceiling on M2, right? And so we don't need the Fed's balance sheet to expand if commercial banks start lending more. This is what wars the deregulation. This is all part of the investment plan. This is, you know, we don't need to raise interest rates every time growth comes up. We don't need to have a huge Fed balance sheet. You know, we can absorb treasury supply through stable coins or tokenization. We can. So there is this big, broad strategic plan that I believe is out there that I think is going to be necessary, because if you do not address. And we're already at over eight hundred billion dollars in net

Starting point is 00:40:29 interest expense this fiscal year, and we've still got the rest of July, August and September fiscal year ends at the end of Q3. People are worried about $80 billion in Google equity raise. I mean, look, just net interest expense is over 10 times that already this year. And it's just growing. And this is the thing that is a nasty little secret. This is what my big concern is longer term, is that almost all of the expense of health care for an individual comes in the last 24 to 36 months of life. And we are just now getting into what I would call an accelerated death range for baby boomers, where if you look at, you know, when was World War II over 1945 okay so the first boomers let's say born in 46 we're now exactly 80 years right

Starting point is 00:41:32 so the oldest baby boomers are now 80 i don't know about you but most of the people i know they do pretty good in their 70s i mean there's always exceptions look at lindsey graham but really where the health problems start cropping up for most of the older adults that I know is in their 80s. And boomers, this is the first year, the oldest boomers are just hitting 80. And if you look at fiscal projections for Medicare and health spending, it's going to blow up. And so we're getting interest expense blowing up. At the same time, we're going to have health care spending blow up because boomers are hitting what I would call peak medical care years. And that's not going to end anytime soon. And it's just going to get

Starting point is 00:42:24 worse. And so, like, if you look at the, we're going to hit $40 trillion in U.S. debt in the coming months. We're going to hit over a trillion dollars in interest expense year to date in a couple months um how you can look at the u.s dollar and not say i want to own gold i want to own bitcoin i want to own silver in the same way that people thought was so smart 12 months ago and the debasements you know guys from morgan stanley coming on bloomberg debasement trade and now it's like oh look ai stole a little bit of thunder from this i mean look there's no question about it. Stuff's going up four or five times. But people are starting to see the easy money days are over. Micron, I think, like I said, it could be $3,000 a share in the next 12

Starting point is 00:43:23 to 24 months, but that's not what it did in the last 12 to 24 months. And I think once people start to recognize this, and once people see the plan, the OCC, the Office of the Control of the which is the largest bank regulator was on cnbc today talking about how he just approved circle to be a bank you know like this this stuff is starting to happen where crypto um bitcoin they're they were fighting like up a river for four years under by like he basically said like carl quinceanera asked like aren't you worried about giving circle a bank license he's like Look, all I'm doing is following the statutes and the laws as they're written. And I can speak from firsthand experience that until recently, if you mentioned crypto

Starting point is 00:44:22 to a regulator, you were like, you know, it was, you just didn't do it. I started three different broker dealers, SecFi Securities, Equity Securities, Vested securities. They're all broker check. People want to start them as a CEO. I went through the whole FINRA application process with all three of them. Two is new broker-dealers. One is a continuing application, which is where you buy a broker-dealer and then you apply for another broker-dealer license. Every single time, and we had the best Manhattan attorneys that advised us. We were VC funded and we had these fancy guys from a firm called Lowenstein Sandler. Every single time, And they would tell us, look, just don't mention crypto.

Starting point is 00:45:05 Like once you mention that, you're going to be a persona non grata. You're going to go to the back of the list if you have to mention it. But otherwise, allude to you might go into other aspects of business. Like it and there was no legislative statute law in the books that said if you're involved with cryptocurrencies, you can't have a broker dealer or you can't have a bank. there's no law prohibiting it it was just a stance that the regulators took because they were essentially in the back pockets of the big banks and and it was a threat to the big banks and it is a threat to the big bank this is the whole reason why the clarity act hasn't been passed yet because you know the banks do not want you know stable coin issuer like circle

Starting point is 00:45:52 uh basically paying out interest um and not being regulated like a bank well guess what now circles a bank. So we're going to get through these hurdles and we're going to get over this. We had Securitize, SECZ is the ticker, go public via SPAC a week or so ago. You know, it traded down quite a bit and I actually bought some late last week and some today. I'm not making an investment recommendation, but, you know, it went public with SPAC, traded up to like 14 and got down to $6.66 last week. And, you know, this is a tokenization company, you know, blockchain. Again, to reference Jordy Visser, he likes to talk about agents, the agentic economy. It's going to be, you know, they're not going to be using dollars. Once people start to realize this,

Starting point is 00:46:50 they're going to say oh my gosh i need to be there just like a year ago people were like oh my gosh the basement trade i need to be there in gold and silver then it ramps up you know 150 percent sells off everybody hates it for six months and then and and then it starts again and so i think the same thing is happening right now with some of these chip stocks and what was hated some of the hyperscalers um like i said i mean they're having amazing returns i mean i don't know i mean just look at something really quick like a meta i mean this thing was literally 540 bucks a share like five six days ago and today it hits 675 but yet if you hear people talk about oh meta hyposcalers what a dog well look these things are in ranges they're trading around the money is

Starting point is 00:47:52 moving um and i think at the end of the day if if you're gonna argue and maybe this could be our last quick topic would be like the trump accounts like what's going to keep this party going it's just an endless stream of passive bid. There's a Michael Green argument. It's, you know, PEs can blow up. They don't need to stay at 25. They could go to 30, 35, like because the passive bid is not going away and it's only getting augmented by the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars a year in perpetuity, just from one law going into effect on July 4th, which is the Trump accounts. what's up freaks when you take bitcoin seriously you start with custody you want to control your keys avoid single points of failure and make sure your savings cannot disappear because you or

Starting point is 00:48:45 someone else screwed up that is what unchained has been focused on since 2016 unchained is the leader in collaborative multi-sig custody and bitcoin financial services that keep you in control they secure over 12 billion dollars in bitcoin for more than 12 000 clients that means about one out of every 200 bitcoin sits inside an unchained vault their model is simple you hold two keys they hold one key it always takes two keys to move bitcoin meaning their single key can't access your bitcoin on its own just resilient shared custody that gives you institutional grade security while keeping you sovereign unchained also lets you trade straight from your vault access bitcoin back commercial loans open a bitcoin ira where you hold your own keys and set

Starting point is 00:49:18 up personal business trust or retirement vaults they even offer inheritance solutions built for long-term hodlers or opt for the highest level private client service with unchained signature and get a dedicated account manager discounted trading fees exclusive access to events and features and much much more if you want a partner that helps you secure and grow your bitcoin without giving up control. Go to Unchained.com and use the code TFTC10 at checkout to get 10% off your new Bitcoin multi-sig vault. That's TFTC10 at Unchained.com. All right, freaks. You know me. You know I don't take sponsor money from products I wouldn't use myself. So listen up. The Avon Bitcoin Visa card is one of the most interesting things I've seen

Starting point is 00:49:54 in the Bitcoin lending space in a long time. Here's the deal. You can get a line of credit up to a million dollars backed by your Bitcoin without selling a single sat. No games, no annual fees, no minimum draws, and your Bitcoin is custodied by BitGo, which is one of the most trusted names in digital asset security. AVEN never lends it out. There's no rehypothecation. You stay in control. And guess what? You can lock in a fixed rate for up to 10 years. That's 10 times longer than most lenders out there, or go interest only for up to five years. Rates start at 7.99% APR. For a product that lets you keep your stack and still access liquidity, it's hard to beat i mean the duration in the rates is the best i've seen in the market to date you

Starting point is 00:50:35 also get two percent unlimited cash back every time you use the card spend fiat keep your bitcoin the whole game if you've been stacking for years and you need liquidity without triggering the taxable event this is worth a serious look go to aven.com slash bitcoin that's aven.com slash bitcoin check it out what should we follow there in terms of adoption to then try to port to the flows that you just described like what because everybody has access to a trump account you have to physically go out and get them for your kids um how's this going to play out your mind uh i think it's being way underestimated by the markets because i don't think people fully understand the tax advantage of these accounts and it's not just a thousand

Starting point is 00:51:30 dollars that the government's going to give it's the ability for anybody to give to a kid that and it's a five thousand dollars a year and it's available to every single person under 18 years of age so every american under 18 can go create or their parents can go create a trump account not if you're 16 you're not going to get a thousand dollars so it's like you have to be born i think since trump took office or something like 20 25 20 what do you fix there there's a there's a there's a lower age range where you get the thousand dollars and then there's other people making big gifts like michael dell brad gerstner um different people um that are you know like gerstner's just doing the state of indiana but the big thing is the tax advantage savings of it

Starting point is 00:52:25 which is that okay i talked about boomers turning 80 we all know boomers have 70 plus trillion dollars in wealth they can put five thousand dollars a year for each of their grandkids into this account and it's going to grow for their grandkids tax-free when they're 18. If the kid wants, they can roll this over into a Roth IRA. And then when they're 59, they can take it out tax-free. There have been some studies showing that if a kid that's born now and for the next 18 years five thousand dollars is contributed which granted that's a lot of decent amount of money it's less than a hundred thousand dollars though that should the markets perform as they have um by the time that kid is 59 and a half and could withdraw it it should be

Starting point is 00:53:27 between 13 and 15 million dollars because you're starting that early this is the power of compounding It's the same thing that AI guys talk about how humans think linearly. We don't speak exponentially or Einstein talking about compounding the most powerful force in the universe. And you're like, you know, is that really right? Like you put ninety thousand dollars into some kid's account and he's going to have thirteen million. Well, yeah, because of compounding, because it's that many years. It's 60 years. We're starting from year zero when the kids born to fifty nine and a half. so it's called 60 years. Nominally, S&P is up 10, 11% a year. You're putting that money in.

Starting point is 00:54:11 And so whether that's going to happen or not, that can be up for debate. What I don't think is going to be up for debate is that there's going to be a lot of well-off grandparents putting money into their grandkids' accounts. Now, what has to happen with that? It goes in the S&P 500 and it can't be sold, right? I mean, the kid can't, oh, I put it into my six-year-old grandchild. I just put 5,000 in, you know, next month I'm going to sell it. No, this is a passive bid. It's an unstoppable passive bid because every year there's new kids born. So you, I think it's three and a half kids, million kids born. Some of these numbers were gone through on a recent all-in podcast with Brad Gerstner, which I think really spells all this out well.

Starting point is 00:55:00 And, you know, they don't tie it necessarily to S&P returns. They just talk about the great tax savings. But I think if you combine what they're talking about, the tax savings, combine that with Michael Green's, you know, passive bid thesis, combine that with the fiscal deficits and that we literally can't clamp down on inflation. Like we can't just start raising interest rates when the government is primarily funding itself through U.S. Treasury bills and start hiking up those rates when we're running over a trillion dollars a year. Like Lou Grohman, you know, what are you going to do, sacrifice the currency or bonds, right? I mean, are we either going to let the bond market blow up or are we going to sacrifice

Starting point is 00:55:41 the currency, in other words, inflation? We're going to have that. Now, there's going to be counterproductive or counter forces with productivity. But at the end of the day, this whole market fear, oh, my gosh, we've got the second coming of Paul Volkner in the Fed chair seat, and he's just going to start hiking rates because inflation is at 3.2 percent, which I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow, and it's always risky making a call less than 24 hours before a number comes out. I would be surprised if we're well below expectations tomorrow on CPI and even more low next month. And I think we could have some deflationary prints, like literally negative numbers, especially if the Trump administration would get out of its way a little bit with this Iran stuff, because those are the tactical headwinds I talked about. But when you had oil go from $120 a barrel down to six handle in a matter of weeks, I mean, that's going to be good for reducing inflation. So I think, you know, all of these signs, like there's so much noise out there, there's a lot of volatility, but like if you just can block that out and say, look, I think I want to have a 4% allocation to memory stocks, 12% allocation to gold, 8% allocation to Bitcoin, whatever those allocations are right for you and hold on to them.

Starting point is 00:57:18 you're going to be very happy with where you're at in six months, 12 months from now. And I just mentioned that because there are a lot of doomer voices out there. There are a lot of people saying this AI thing is going to blow up. Private credit is going to blow up. You know, the Ram war is going to send oil to 200. There are a lot of people that I think could be scaring people into saying, oh, my gosh, I need to take my money out of all risk assets and put it into a CD. um i i think that's going to be the wrong decision i could always be wrong but i mean i i'm i'm about

Starting point is 00:57:53 as bullish as i've i've ever been i think i think 15 000 by the end of the decade on s&p for example is probably conservative yeah you've always been very bullish on the show and uh it seems like let's see i mean the ai stuff like when he when i hear ed zitron i have to wonder like is there some sort of nefarious incentive driving it because or is he not using it or is he not using it the right because you can he just sells his research he makes money on that yeah but it's a research kit like because i'm using the stuff we've like basically automated a ton of the back-end stuff with tftc and like i said my token usage is going up exponentially it feels particularly with the new frontier models launching we're hopping on them right away

Starting point is 00:58:43 and it's undeniable like objectively just looking at my micro situation looking at my business like it is helping us be crazy productive like it is a multiple and productivity the cost are manageable for us as a small team maybe that's different for enterprises and um it does seem like enterprises are trying to figure out how to manage token spend and what the right mix of frontier models and open source models is but i think to flatly say that this is a bubble built on idiotic technology that that nothing yeah he claims it's nothing he doesn't even make the claim that like open ai and anthropic are you know insecure business models like he literally makes the claim that we're going to look back on this period and say this was the biggest waste ever

Starting point is 00:59:34 and we're going to be like massively oversupplied with compute and i would i like will grant him that there's no guarantee like i said that open ai becomes a 10 trillion dollar company one day in fact i kind of doubt it ever does but that does not mean that ai that data center builds outs are worthless that that um you know meta like i i made this argument months ago where i was basically like, look, everybody's talking about shortages of compute. The hyperscalers own compute. Microsoft owns compute with Azure. You know, Amazon with AWS. Meta with what they built out for themselves, which are now selling. Google with Google Cloud and what they built out for Gemini. They own compute. If there's a need for compute, it doesn't matter if it comes through

Starting point is 01:00:25 open ai anthropic grok uh gom you know kimmy minimax like it doesn't matter quinn the baba model like if it needs to be computed it needs the hardware and the hardware is going to be valuable because that demand is going up crazy and like you talked about and mentioned earlier we're not even getting into robotics i mean we're not even getting into all this stuff and like is a lot of that stuff going to be on the edge yes but guess who's going to make the memory for the robots right is that so it's like you know mind the miners you know this is this is the railroads man i mean it was like the the same thing picks and shovels mind the miners um you know like i said honestly i would not invest in anthropic or open ai right now i just wouldn't i mean not

Starting point is 01:01:19 anything significant um and i think we've seen spacex you know not have that great of a reaction in the market um so i think there's a valid criticism that when people are willing to draw out like where spacex is going to be in 15 years like who the heck knows where spacex is going to be in 15 years and so that deserves a pretty heavy discount even if you grant that it's going to access this 24 trillion dollar tam and it's like granted at all but you got to discount the hell out of that um but was it a big leap once the automobile was invented to say automate uh autos are going to be a big thing didn't know if ford was going to be great studebaker a lot of companies went bankrupt a lot of railroad roads went bankrupt a lot of dot coms went bankrupt

Starting point is 01:02:14 but at the end of the day this was a transformational technology i just don't see how and zitron argues this a lot of the times he basically says ai is not a transformational technology like it's it's not good it doesn't do anything it hallucinates it's like look it's getting better every month it does a lot of stuff i mean i'll tell you what you could make the same argument about a word processor. You can be like, oh, what's a computer? It's a keyboard. I already have a typewriter. It's not transformational. I mean, sometimes the differences don't even have to be that huge. Just the fact that you can now talk to computers is huge, right? I mean, before the big LLMs, the best talking, you know, back and forth was like Alexa and Siri,

Starting point is 01:03:07 and they all sucked. And now like, I'm like, you know, you start talking to these models and they're picking up on slang. You're picking up on like, that is just a huge, huge leap. I mean, it's so easy to, you know, imagine like glasses and, you know, automatically, you know, translating and all the stuff that these things have already proven they can do are huge. They just haven't been fully implemented in society yet because people don't change as fast as the technology does, but they will get implemented. Just like, like I'm old enough that when I was a kid, we had a radio, we had a rotary phone, and we had a dial black and white TV with an antenna. Okay. That was the like epitome of electronics in like a 1981 household. There were people that first got

Starting point is 01:03:59 VHSs, then they got betas. My dad didn't like that stuff. There were people that got cable. My dad didn't like that stuff. There were kids that got video games. I mentioned the Commodore 64, the Atari 2600. My dad didn't like that stuff. He bought a new video game console called the Atari 400, which even though it was less than the Atari 2600, it was actually more expensive. But it was supposed to be a better computer. But nobody liked it.

Starting point is 01:04:26 Everybody liked the 2600. So all this stuff happened. All this stuff happened, and these companies came and went. But they have literally just transformed the world over what is a relatively short period of time. I mean, it's not like the iPhone's been around for even a decade. Right. I mean, it came out in 2007. I mean, excuse me, for 20 years. You know, it hasn't been around for 20 years. I mean, that's that is not a long time. that that's i mean i i got pairs of socks older you know been around longer than iphones like

Starting point is 01:05:06 this stuff changes the world and ai is going to change the world that's not going to end does that mean um you know spacex can't trade down to 30 a share in the next 24 months sure it can i actually don't think it will but yeah i mean that thing's got barely any revenue it's not profitable uh you know i i'm just saying like would i want to put a bunch of money into spacex no i own some shares i got a little allocation on the ipo and i bought some the very first day small amount and i just put it away uh because i do believe in the potential of it but like i'm not gonna like be a uh spacex maxi like let me put it all into that you know and i i think like a diversified portfolio, crypto, Bitcoin, gold, silver, equities, emerging market equities, like everything except

Starting point is 01:06:06 for bonds. I just don't like bonds because I just don't see a way for the fixed income return to keep up with the inflation that's going to be necessary to handle the fiscal issues that every major developed country from japan uh the uk to france to the united states is even china just swamped in it and the basement trade's not hot right now that doesn't mean it won't be you know three to six months yeah it's not hot it's the best time to allocate typically it is it's it every single time people hate the hyperscalers it's ridiculous how many times when everybody thinks it's the smartest thing to do that's when everybody's invested in it and it's got nowhere to go but down like about four weeks ago everybody's like you gotta bet on the um the the

Starting point is 01:07:08 builders you know you don't bet on the spenders get out of the hyperscalers everybody was saying at. Hyperscalers knocking the socks off of the, you know, quote unquote, you know, the picks and shovel plays in the last three or four weeks because it just gets overdone and the narrative gets old. And now you've got Micron down a few hundred bucks from the high and you've got Meta up 80 bucks in the last couple of trading days. And people are saying, what the hell happened? Like, I thought a month ago you were supposed to buy Micron and sell Meta. No, actually, a month ago, you were supposed to sell Micron and buy Meta. And it's like longer term, I think you just be diversified because it's hard to pick the

Starting point is 01:07:56 perfect dates. I mean, when am I going to pick that perfect day that Meta stopped or Micron stopped? And I think you just want to be involved in these long term themes. And this is why even when like Bitcoin and gold were ripping last year, and i did once in a while go on a podcast and someone would say no you believe so much in gold and bitcoin in the debasement trade why do you own equity i'm like this it doesn't mean that the debasement trade is always going to be you know doing what i think it's going to do do i think gold and bitcoin will outperform the s&p 500 over the next 10 years yes i do and i still do

Starting point is 01:08:35 but it's not happening this year and you know what um it's good to have that diversity there's old saying in investing you know the only free lunch in investing is diversity because it you know increases your sharp ratio it reduces the volatility and increases your expected returns and and that's why i've never been a fan of like just put every dollar you own into bitcoin or put it all into ether put it all into gold or put it all into the nasdaq or put it all into monster nvidia or strategy i i do believe in diversification and you want to take short-term bets take short-term bets but um i do but i do it with a small percentage of the portfolio most of it is a long-term diversified i think that's sage advice any uh predictions between

Starting point is 01:09:25 now and the next time we meet after q3 um what what's it let me see if i can come up with a shocker for you, Marty. You know, you're my favorite person to talk to. I don't know if I have anything that's actually too out of consensus or crazy. I do think that with gold right around $4,000, Bitcoin not too far away from $60,000, that the next time we meet, I would wager that gold and Bitcoin are going to be outperformers relative to equities and even some high-flying equities. I would much rather invest in Bitcoin or gold right now than I would Micron or SpaceX. doesn't mean i don't think they're they're not they're they're not good

Starting point is 01:10:26 i just think that especially by the end of the year um we could be looking at some really really nice returns like i think this was before we came on but we're like three months away from the four-year anniversary of the ftx low in bitcoin and it was october 2022 16 000 four-year cycle i wasn't a believer in four-year cycles but you know what we seem to be following one pretty damn well and if we're going to bond four years four years after the last bottom and that's october we're in the middle of july i mean like if if people have said okay bitcoin winner like well winter's getting ready to end because you know if we're bottoming in the next couple of months um you know i think you need to be start adding now and you know i they to me

Starting point is 01:11:23 bitcoin 57 000 whatever it hit last week um i mean that's a gift gold at 4 000 silver 60 um now is the time to be buying those things um not you know i don't know what's the hottest thing out there and on the books these days not spacex in my opinion that's yeah that is funny the four-year cycle does seem to be repeating and uh it's always good to zoom out with you mel i think this was like the most dense high signal sort of we ran through all this in an hour and eight minutes here now so thank you for coming on let's catch up in the fall when q3 is uh is over and uh i'm always looking forward to our end of year retrospective and predictions for the following year so

Starting point is 01:12:24 it's gonna be fun i'm too i and i've got a few that i'm i'm actually thinking could still come to fruition that nobody thought one of them was uh mag 7 outperforms s&p 500 um I had, uh, Bitcoin outperforming gold. You know, I, I had some things that didn't seem to make sense back in January, um, that I, that I predicted at the end of the year and they still don't make sense to be honest with you, but I think there's still plenty of time left in the year for some of those things to come full circle. And I think a lot of people that kind of gave up on the mag seven early in the year gave up on Bitcoin and thought gold was

Starting point is 01:13:05 the bee's knees as it hit $5,600 and there's no way Bitcoin's going to outperform it. I still think Bitcoin's going to outperform gold for 2026 and I still think MAC7's going to outperform S&P. Clip it and send it to Peter Schiff,

Starting point is 01:13:21 freaks. Mel, we'll catch up in the fall, brother. Enjoy the rest of your summer. Thanks, Marty. Peace and love, freaks. Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC. If you've made it this far, I imagine you got some value out of the episode. If so, please share it far and wide with your friends and family. We're looking to get the word out there. Also, wherever you're listening, whether that's YouTube, Apple, Spotify, make sure you like and subscribe to the show. And if you can leave a rating on the podcasting platforms, that goes a long way. Last but not least, if you want to get these episodes a day early and ad-free, make sure you download the Fountain podcasting app and go to fountain.fm to find that.

Starting point is 01:14:08 $5 a month gets you every episode a day early, ad-free, helps the show, gives you incredible value. So please consider subscribing via Fountain as well. Thank you for your time. And until next time. Okay. Thank you.

TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - #771: Why AI Demand Won’t Collapse with Mel Mattison

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