TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - Bitcoin For Business: Fanatics

Episode Date: December 6, 2023

Lou turns the questions on Marty to find out how businesses can embrace Bitcoin. 0:00 - Intro 7:20 - Why are we here? 13:29 - What is Fanatics? 19:54 - FanCash should be Bitcoin 29:58 - Introducing Bitcoin through rewards 33:04 - Chargebacks and international onboarding 37:29 - Bitcoin is can enable better UX flow 41:39 - NFTs don’t work 48:30 - New media monetization models 53:26 - Protection from censorship 58:36 - Trust still required 1:02:17 - Saving your business in a recession 1:05:21 - Debrief, comment your suggestions! Shoutout to our sponsors: River https://river.com/tftc Unchained https://unchained.com/concierge/ CrowdHealth https://www.joincrowdhealth.com/tftc Bitcoin Talent Co https://www.bitcointalent.co/ TFTC Merch is Available Shop Now: https://merch.tftc.io Join the TFTC Movement: Main YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/c/TFTC21/videos Clips YT Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUQcW3jxfQfEUS8kqR5pJtQ Website https://tftc.io/ Twitter https://twitter.com/tftc21 Instagram https://www.instagram.com/tftc.io/ Follow Marty Bent: Twitter https://twitter.com/martybent Newsletter https://tftc.io/martys-bent/ Podcast https://tftc.io/podcasts/

and really make me start a new show on my my own feed and he's hard at work right now creating a thumbnail it's gonna be a good thumbnail you think so new format here on tftc bitcoin for businesses uncle lou's brainchild since this podcast was the original brainchild of uncle lou i said hey worked out the first time maybe it'll work out this time too we'll see where it goes we dove into how fanatics can implement bitcoin that's the broader topic of this mini series within tftc is how can businesses practically implement bitcoin into their operations started with a philly company city near and dear to our hearts our home city see if big mike likes this one lou i think he's gonna like it this rip was

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and enjoy the first episode of bitcoin what are we calling this bitcoin for business bitcoin for business fanatics enjoy You've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free. When you talk about a Fed just gone nuts, all the central banks going nuts. So it's all acting like safe haven. I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.

I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin. If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. You ready? Yeah, I'm ready. Why didn't you get cream in your coffee? Because you gave me a look like you're the busiest fucking man on the planet, even though you just sit here and stare at the block thing all day. Oh, this is happening at all.

Sit here and stare at the block thing all day. You just come on the show and just shit on me and my work ethic. I feel like I'm the only one who can since I kind of created the show. All right. So real question. Why are we here? Why are we doing this? What is this? This is, this is, this is going to be a new series for, for, for, for the Marty dent from Marty bent world or Marty, whatever your fucking name is world. I realized I've been here for like two months. It's probably people are way too smart. Everyone here is too smart, but I'm the dumbest person in this office without a doubt. Like I'm dumb. I don't think you're dumb. I know you don't

think i'm dumb but like the things that are happening here are like next level shit next level shit like all this bitcoin shit mash i don't even know what i'm doing i just know it's gonna work like who knows like i don't know what i'm doing so i've realized one time a month we gotta take an hour and i gotta ask you questions okay for the normal people for the normies for the normies yeah and we've gone back and forth about how to do this well this is how the show started yeah like the bitcoin history episodes it was basically you being like what is this yeah teach me about it and then you got very busy and you stopped coming on the show well you you also big time me a lot but that's i did not big time you i'm kidding you didn't big time me once i just

i needed to come back on it you didn't big time me once i'm thinking now that like i need we need to learn again we got to learn again like the like the the the i want to say idiots, morons, whatever, whatever I am, we got to learn again. Cause it's pretty obvious. Bitcoin's going to win. It's going to win. Are you more confident now than you were in 2017 when we started the show? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's going to win. So we've gone back and forth, like what we should do, what we should do to teach people. And the idea that we've I've come up with it's Bitcoin for business. I like this where I can ask you questions about, I'm going to take a business, and I'm going to ask you questions about how Bitcoin would work into their business.

Now, there was a little scuttlebutt about what we should start with. We decided we're going to start a Philadelphia company. I wanted Wawa. You told me not Wawa right now. Not Wawa. It's too hard. Wawa's too hard. It's not too hard, but it's just like, eh. Yeah, you're right. It's a gas station. Like, what am I going to do? It's a great gas station. One of the best gas stations in the world. You think it's better than Buc-ee's? Have you been to a Buc-ee's yet?

I have not been to a Buc-ee's, but I kind of need to go, but I don't think anything can be better than Wawa. Wawa has like a nostalgia thing where it's like, like what states outside of Pennsylvania and Texas have a gas station that matters? Think about that. Yeah, I don't know. Zero. I mean, Buc-ee's and Wawa are now in Florida, Tennessee.

Wawa's in Florida? Yeah. In Tennessee? Buc-ee's is in Tennessee. I don't know if Wawa is I kind of get why There is no Wawa down here though

Because like Buc-ee's Would just be like no Yeah Buc-ee's would Not have it Muscle them out of the market Like I've always thought Why was there no Wawa Everywhere

But now I get it Because they have There's Buc-ee's and stuff Anyway So we didn't We're not doing Wawa We're going to do another Another

Philadelphia company We're going to do Fanatics Why are we going to do Fanatics Because fucking Big Dick Mike Rubin Has been he's owned the sports space forever and I feel like that's the space I know

I don't know another Philadelphia company I could do that would like that I could ask you questions about that would make any sense to me I don't want to do Comcast either I don't even know what Comcast does like seriously like I asked you a question yesterday remember yesterday when I was like what is a what

what's an IRA I really don't know I don't know that's what I'm saying like I don't know I don't know I know I know sports because sports stuff because of Barstool I know YouTube stuff because of the McAfee stuff and I know like consumer products I don't know anything else so what we're gonna do and we're gonna do now is I'm gonna ask you questions I like this I think this is this is how we can get people that are

not that are like your audience is too smart we got to get we expand now the world's gonna know about Bitcoin okay all right so we're starting with Fanatics that's gonna be our first company what's gonna be a second I have no idea because literally we are me and Marty do not plan I'm not planner i fly i just fly and this is where we butt heads a lot true because i'm a bad planner too and we need better planners in our life i'm not the planner i'm a dude we don't compliment each other that way we we need a planner we're winging it the most planning we ever did was when we did the the history of bitcoin in that office at hq2 that was the most so we probably want to pull up we probably pull up that picture one more time i'll find it for you we won't pull that up

cause that was a lot of planning that was like months of planning maybe maybe two weeks but like you can say it was months but we we

it was two weeks we probably did it for two weeks we probably left it up we probably went we probably started it and left it up there and then we came back to it yeah

there's no way I was sitting there for a month months planning anything I'm planning I just rip it even this thing I'm ripping it I was just listening to the podcast

oh another reason why we're starting it I was listening cause how I learned me and Michael Rubin learned the same way because it's these philly guys he said he doesn't read i don't read either it's not all philly people some of us read you read yes he doesn't read i don't read he said he only listens to podcasts you're both very successful so i'm nothing compared to this

guy but let's be honest he he's he's one he's he's one of the one of the big dicks in the world so the questions that i have for you is if we're thinking of fanatics as a whole wait back up let's take it back up okay let's back up before thinking about fanatics as a whole let's describe that whole what is fanatics what do they do what are their different business lines fanatics is the number one company in the world when it comes to sports apparel sports merchandise if you buy anything from any sports company any team whatever you are about you are using fanatics the number one thing i think michael rubin has done that i still do not know how he's done for this long and that's why he's the goat he may be with the greatest philadelphia business band since

ben franklin like i don't know but ben franklin from boston but i think he's philadelphia whatever he has held on to the sports to the sports rights for teams for i don't know how long 20 30 years he's the greatest in the world at that like i don't know how he's been for fanatics products kind of shitty like it's kind of shitty he's been able to hold on to those sports rights for minimum 20 years. Minimum. Honestly, do you want to know what would be great? If I knew exactly when Fnatic started?

But I didn't look that up. Because I know it's been a long time. Logan, look that up. Fnatic. Logan, when did Fnatic start? F-A-N-A-T-I-C-S. We can spell in Philadelphia, too. I can't spell.

All right, now it's going to get hard. Let me throw my... 2011. 2011. So it started in 2011. So we're only 12 years in. Feels like forever. So, no, no, but let's ask a question, though.

Let's ask another question. He owned another thing called GSI Commerce or something before that, right? We're definitely going to have to cut some of this. We're not cutting anything. We're not cutting anything. We're not cutting anything? No. Just rip.

Okay. It's fine with me. I don't give a shit. I don't care that I don't know when he started his company. I think when he started the company is external from the conversation we want to have, which is how can this company implement Bitcoin? Yes, that is true. But I feel like I should have done a little bit more DD,

or I did have a page with DD on it, but I don't know how to read. That's the problem. I don't know how to read. I have a page sitting right in front of me. I don't know how to read. all right so thing is 95 got turned into gsi commerce in 02 yeah so gsi commerce this is like this is when so i actually have a good story about this and it goes back to 95 then this is you want to hear a really good story about this you want to hear like this is why also why we

started with this guy big mike did you did you know that at one point they they were calling they were calling king of prussia the around the king of prussia area the silicon valley of the east i did not know that i swear to god kop i swear to god i swear to god when i was like starting in barstool i went to this company when i was like oh like i was like trying to learn about ad tech and with this company called technicos and this dude jason hartman told me that they once called it the silicon valley of the east what happened how did king of prussia have such a fall from grace i don't know i know like gsi commerce and all them started there i was like oh this seemed uh young lou is like oh that's actually cool that's actually makes like makes

sense like fanatics was started here started around this area like maybe it could have been the silicon valley of the east that's why we need to go back we are re-erect that that's also been there's also been a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot of grumblings that we have to go back and save the city sooner than we thought yeah we may not be texans for for a long time we may have to go back sooner and save it i've got my natural born texan and the youngest he's our anchor baby in case we ever need to come back for some unforeseen reasons yeah i think in the next couple years we're going to go back and save it sooner yeah didn't realize didn't realize how quick we're going to save the save the city me you and big mike all right all right big mike's

a big business leader big business leader part owner of the sixers was a part owner of the sixers gave it up learn that why he gave that last night so he can be more in business so he can serve the customers of fanatics more learn that too when i was listening to my podcast since i don't read now they're besides the sport besides being uh then the the leader in sports apparel they also have a gambling business now because they bought points back they have a live streaming platform fanatics live they have their own uh like airline miles type points called fan cash which they give back to uh users for buying stuff and i think we may want to start there with fan cash fan cash is basically just like airline miles points so i kept thinking in my brain i was like

why would it not be bitcoin why would ever why would something like fanatics that has this mike rubin's greatest thing is he's the greatest relationships person on the planet that's also why i want to start with him started with him it's like the guy philadelphia guys we're all philadelphia guys we all we've all probably been good people people good people kind of we're you can read we're good people people we know how to talk to people build relationships yeah yeah i guess we're good philadelphia people are good good people people i don't know how outside of philadelphia i think people just like us outside of philadelphia i have that whole theory too do they when you get to a different like part of the world that's not

philadelphia i feel like if you they're like oh that motherfucker made it out of philadelphia we like them anyway like for that reason alone that's why i moved to boston that's how i felt i was like oh they just like me because i like i'm out of there because i got out that makes sense of the mean streets but we always want to go back we're gonna have to go back at some point but that's that's that's that's me and you big mike is big mike is throwing white parties that's his name now may's big mike big mike i feel like i know him i've listened to so many podcasts about him he's throwing the white party he's got the big part he has the best relationships in the world with these people he has fan cat fan cash is kind of like air mile airline miles points

i get the point of being like let's keep everyone in the ecosystem but why would you not tie that to bitcoin why would you not tie why is everyone not saying let's do cash back in bitcoin or tying that to bitcoin that's a great question i think it's like a very smart move like to replace fan cash with bitcoin rewards sats rewards so they can leverage something like fold in their enterprise api and so fold is a rewards-based company and that's really what they're going after is the whole total addressable market of rewards airline miles starbucks miles or starbucks cash fan cash all that they want to replace that with bitcoin and i think it's a very smart idea for these companies to adopt it but like you said there's this preconceived notion that we need to keep

everybody in our ecosystem and the best way to do that is have these uh points this point system that can only be spent at our company and that makes sense when you're looking at it at first glance like yeah of course you want to keep people sort of involved with your company and they get points that they can only spend there however history has shown whether it's airline miles or starbucks cash that uh people get debased as they were essentially starbucks did last year they said all right your starbucks starbucks cash is cut in half like it's it's worth half of what it was yesterday airline miles they uh expire after a certain amount of time not privy to the exact dynamics of fan cash but i imagine uh there could be similar dynamics at

play and why you would replace that fan cash with Bitcoin, I think it's a bit counterintuitive where you're trying to solve the problem of people spending at your company. I think incorporating Bitcoin can actually accelerate that, especially if you're a first mover in the space, because if you're spending money at Fanatics and you're getting Bitcoin back and you're one of the few places that's doing that early, I think you're actually going to accelerate that problem that you're trying to solve which is like we want more people spending more money at fanatics that they know they're going to get a bitcoin reward in return and cash back like they'll go buy more fanatic stuff because they're getting something that's actually valuable and the problem that

arises and i think that's something companies like fanatics need to get comfortable with is since it's bitcoin it could be spent other places they get the bitcoin cash back and go spend it other places however i do think if you're a first mover that problem solved by people wanting to spend money because they know they're going to get big way back yeah so what that also brings me to what you're saying when i was thinking about with the fan cash too is the idea of like of like let's finax wants to be the everything app of sports let's assume there is there is there are many super apps there's amazon there amazon's a super app kind of where you can do a million different things on there if fanatics like i want to be a super app of sports wouldn't that help users to

be like okay they want to get in ticketing one day let's say i'm getting ticketing one day how else would some like you're never going to be able to get enough fan cash points to get ticket to the super bowl but with bitcoin you could like that's if for for big big mike's a big guy on like oh like what's the best experience for uh for for for fans and how else would someone save for a Super Bowl ticket if you're buying all that you're buying stuff like if you're a super fan a super sports fan how else would they do it like it seems like that would be impossible right like because there is no savings technology within a within any type of like yeah you have I swipe my credit card I get points from Chase but like they're not I'm never gonna get enough

points to get like you see people that have like billions of airline points yeah they could buy but a normal person could never save enough to get that game ticket without something like this. Unless I'm crazy wrong, because the price of Super Bowl tickets go up every year. Big game tickets go up every year. I mean, it would come up with the timing. You'd have to accumulate enough Bitcoin back rewards

when the price is low and have that go up, and then, yeah, you could potentially buy a ticket. But long-term value of it, that's what I'm saying. The long-term value seems like the only way you could do it. Yeah. Like, you're never going to get enough airline miles to, like, or chase points or whatever we're calling them, fan cash points, to get, like, the items that, like, if you are thinking, and if Big Mike is thinking, and I don't know if he likes me calling him Big Mike, I'm going to come up with a few different names for him, just so you know that. um if he's like okay i want to get into all these different businesses within the within the sports ecosystem whether it's ticketing whether they're big in the collectibles now they just bought tops

people that want to buy like a jill and b rookie card those are very expensive someone's not going to be able to save up enough money for those things so it's kind of like you're hurting your consumer by not doing it because the people that you can never get enough You'll never going to be able to get enough on fan cash or, or X, Y, Z to get to the level to be like, oh, this one prize item that I possess, the amount of points you need, it's just impossible. That is an important part too. And like, not only is maybe there's a reality where somebody can get enough points, but

they can never have confidence that even if they do get enough points, it'll be worth what it, they originally thought it was again, going back to airlines, basically having their miles expire after a certain amount of time or starbucks cutting the value of their cash back in half overnight and so that preconceived notion uh that knowledge that this happened in other areas would probably disincentivize people from engaging in it in the first place because like hey why is it even worth it because my airline miles expire my starbucks cash got cut in half like it could happen here too so that could be like a mental blocker that prevents people from from engaging in something like fan cash and then but if it's bitcoin like and you're

giving bitcoin back rewards using something like folds api like the end user knows that fan cash starbucks american airlines has no control over the the supply of bitcoin at any given point in time so they know that they get sats back and send their wallet like it's not getting debased And so that may incentivize them to interact more with this cashback scheme. And then on top of that, talking about the different business verticals, whether it's sports memorabilia, jerseys, all that stuff, and then ticketing. Those are two different verticals with two very different sort of business economics, I would expect. And so the economics of fan cash for points back while you're buying memorabilia may be completely different than something like ticketing. It is. You're correct there.

And so the economics, fan cash may not have the incentive to make those points fungible across those different business lines because the economics don't make sense. Whereas with Bitcoin, it does make sense because at the end of the day, if you're paying for a ticket in Bitcoin, that's good money that you can actually hold on your balance sheet. Yes. So there is a world. You can use fan cash for different things right now, but the assumption, I think it would be much,

I think what you're saying, and I think what you're saying is correct, it would be much harder to be like, okay, I bought, I want to just, And essentially you go out and you buy the new Kelly Green jerseys coming out for the Eagles. Just going to use Philadelphia stuff because this is what I know. They come out, you buy it, you get some points back on there. What you're saying is if there was like a lightning Bitcoin implementation, it could just go into one wallet, sits there,

and you could easily send it to like, oh, I want to hold this here for when I want to go buy tickets like two years from now. I know that I buy my Kelly Green jersey in week one, week one, And, God, we could even pull up, like, what was the price of Bitcoin in week one? What was the price of Bitcoin in week one of the NFL season? Because then it's like, oh, I buy the Kelly Green jersey in week one. Eagles are looking good. I want to maybe have that cash back to go to, like, a playoff game or whatever.

When was that? September. Let's say September 7th-ish. That would be week one. Yeah. That actually makes sense because it's like, okay. If you're thinking about it, if I'm Mike Rubin and I'm sitting here, I'm thinking about it from the perspective of like, okay, the people that are using this thing, maybe I want them to go buy another $20 item or whatever, another jersey or hat. but in reality if that savings if there's a savings technology behind my cash back

then i can move i'm moving them to higher ticketed items yes like over and logan's going to pull up what the what bitcoin was it at at on september 7th and we're going to see like okay like this is what it could this is a real world example of where you could have really have done it where it's like i bought my kelly green jersey uh i got back well the authentic kelly green jersey you get You get back the, I don't know. Let's say you get back, I'm making this up. You get back 5% on it. It's 300 bucks for the authentic one.

26K. What? 26K. So if you got back 5% on 300, I can't do public math. I'm the worst. It's 15 bucks. 15 bucks. 15 bucks is around 28 bucks right now, I would say.

So exactly. There's no other way. There's no other thing on the planet where you could sit there and say, this reward system within it within the ecosystem would be would be doubled within 16 weeks and under 16 weeks it's probably around 25 but that's certainly a case i think the more important case here too when we're thinking about companies like fanatics trying to implement a bitcoin strategy i think the rewards aspect and the rewards avenue is the lowest friction way to introduce it because a lot of people when they're like incorporate bitcoin into your company like accept bitcoin

for payment and the reality of the situation is most people don't have bitcoin and so they're not going to interact with that that invoice to pay in bitcoin most of the time unless they're a hardcore bitcoiners like you and me the rewards aspect though is a sly roundabout way to introduce bitcoin to your customers where they may not be bitcoiners but they may be willing to take bitcoin as rewards because it's basically no skin in the game for them they're it's cash back it's money they wouldn't have anyway and so mentally they're probably like yeah i'll accept bitcoin uh as a cash back reward instead of going out and buying it and then they get introduced to bitcoin that way they hold it in their account they wake up one day see the 15 in cash back they got

they got september is now 25 bucks like oh this is interesting and they want to get more bitcoin because they saw that and so they start spending more and then eventually they understand bitcoin what it means as money in the digital age and then they become more willing to spend it on goods and services down the road yes but the the idea of just being able to sit there and say the cost of something that i can get something else that i didn't want is massive in terms of like the if i'm running a business where like it's all customer focused like like my entire if i'm running fanatics the entire like if you are if you service your customers better than x than the next person you're going to win like like kind of what like amazon did with uh with

two-day shipping okay like like second they introduced two-day shipping it's like okay i get the product as quickly as i can possibly get it it's like that's a that's where i think there's a huge advantage for consumer companies to do this because and to that point like i think rewards this is a great way to actually serve your end client you're not giving them some buku i'm not trying to be derogatory here but this is just the history of point systems historically like buku fan cash bucks like they're centrally controlled who knows what they'll be worth one day uh to the next uh this is serving the end client by giving them cash back rewards and bitcoin um because you know they know you know that in the long term

value is going to accrue to bitcoin those quote unquote points in the form of bitcoin are going to be worth something which is serving your end client at the end of the day yeah because if you're especially if you're a global business and you're like i want to go like i think about the nfl a lot because obviously it's where i watch the most that in the nba it's like okay i want to go to the you want to go to the i'm going to the a game in in germany or or england like you have fan if it was if it if you could automatically change it like that's the other thing about that's my next question honestly is like in a global business a globe things change all the time wouldn't you want to run something like this on lightning off of just a payments processing thing because like

we were talking about it last week chargebacks yeah like chargeback yeah like it solves that problem immediately chargebacks huge problem in the world just a huge problem for everyone in every business it solves chargeback problems it also solves the idea it doesn't also solve the idea of of um like onboarding new custom like let's say okay case in point you see what the you see what like uh the middle east or saudi arabia is doing like they're buying all the sports leagues they're buying sports leagues they're buying stars or whatever okay they're going out and being like you got to go set up operation in a different country can't you just do that instantly because you have the payment system set up instantly well yeah and it'd be more specific

set up an operation in that country set up bank accounts that's yeah set up a foreign exchange between dollars and real i believe is what they use in saudi arabia uh yeah that takes a lot of money upfront capital with bitcoin it's software free and open source like you can if you want it to be bold and just go bitcoin only in that international aspect of your business would make it much easier because that's what i think about a lot too it's like my group an nba guy it's like okay let's assume they wanted to the nba one to have like games in africa one day or somewhere else it's like how would you even how would you set that up quick enough like that would take years where and but with bitcoin if bitcoin was the payment layer you could set that up

instantly you could show up and be like we have an arena we're selling the jerk everyone buys it in bitcoin yeah i mean zap right you could easily implement what they're doing just get your own exchange account you don't have to do your own wallet you set up an account business account with river unchained um and their back end handles the invoicing and you get paid immediately and then beyond that like again going back to the problem most people don't have bitcoin they're not going to spend maybe in countries like uh excuse me not countries on continents like but i'm thinking continents like we're thinking about a global shifting world where if you told someone 10 years ago that the pg that best people in the pga would go like be playing and would be like oh

they're playing in in the middle east it's like they like huh like like how quickly like things like that change and it's like if you don't have a universal payment layer how do you move like how do you do that like is that even possible that's you go domicile a business entity in that country which takes time money and you set up a bank account connected to that business entity takes time money i mean you probably have to do um a small amount of this even if you are accepting bitcoin but i find it hard to imagine there'd be anywhere near as burdensome as setting up banking infrastructure across these countries so you're saying so meaning like meaning like it would be a hundred times easier to just show up and be like i could i have this the software

on my phone i want to start selling like you never know like i think about like you know what i i always think about like like european basketball players like middle of nowhere and nicola nicola joke is the best player in the world now like let's say you want to show up and start selling jersey like you could do that right like because it's just instant yeah so anywhere on the planet you could show up and just be like okay instead of I have to set up all this infrastructure like because you just don't know when things like that take off like you don't know like like oh like I mean like people knew Luka Doncic was going to be the best but it's like you you uh you see these things that are just like okay like I want to this guy's going to go to the NBA people are showing up

to like maybe they want to get his jersey or they want to like show up or like build Michael Broome can do this like he's good at this as we know like I'm thinking also on this line like every athlete now is their own personal brand yeah we're seeing it we saw it with McAfee we're seeing it with Paul George you see it with all these people they're all doing it they're all being their own personal brand if you could basically go to all over the globe though like obviously people like oh it's easy because it's better in America what I'm saying is like when your sports now is so global and these sports are global and they're going to keep going that way like like if these people are trying to set up personal brands as they're on their way up before

they get to the nba and like that could happen instantly if you were set up on if you had a payment layer like lightning bitcoin whatever correct yes yes and before even like we don't even have to get that grandiose i mean i think there's lower hanging fruit use cases that really go ahead but that's not grandiose though this where we're at in the world no because like the way youtube works in the sense that like like crazy big vision going international like there's again lower hanging fruit that like you could implement for the business you have today that could improve the user experience so like checkout get albie i have that wild extension uh on my browser and there's bitcoin in it when you compare the checkout flow using get albie to

pay um at a checkout like the tftc store tftc.io slash shop want to buy yard sign when you go there and you pay in bitcoin like i literally i don't have to fumble and pull out my debit card uh i literally get the lightning invoice and pay it immediately from get all they just click a button it's paid and so like i would really be interested to see what the fallout rate at checkout is when people have to go to put in their credit card like how many people don't have it on them how many people like and don't wind up buying something at checkout because they simply don't have their wallet on them like this from like a retention standpoint like fixes that problem because the wallet's in your browser and you pay right away you don't have to give up all this personal

information that's another thing you don't hold all this credit card information as a company which adds a bunch of security data risk to your to your operation but would that that makes sense what you're saying makes complete sense but wouldn't that hurt them from the perspective of the they want to collect the data so they can customer map i assume there's a way maybe you could do it or i don't know i don't know yet like we're like you like okay i do need the data so i can build out demographics and segments for people yeah that's why that's why like profiles on these sites exist right okay set up like a customer profile and then i mean the data you do get like you need to ship the goods somewhere at the end of the day and that is a physical location which

true so yeah right you got to ship the day that's why that's why you're telling me because i'm i wouldn't even think about that i'm the i'm the moron where like you're right you have a customer profile of them even though they're not using their credit card information yeah and then that because that's what i think about what i was thinking about was like why we're doing fanatics too it's like they're so they're globe it's global it's globe things change in that world instantly things pop up you want to like i think to be honest like i think like fucking what's the the fake tennis sport that people are playing pickleball pickleball i think it's the dumbest for in the world but like that takes off and you want to start selling pickleball merch you want

some people are playing it all over the world it's like okay how do you do that instantly instantly like instantly you need the payment layer right like that's where i think that there's a huge huge opportunity for someone like yeah fanatics and again distress is early days still um so you may not get you may not get the attraction you expect off the bat and this is simply driven by the fact that most people don't have bitcoin that's okay that's why i think rewards is a great place to start you solve a problem of basically crappy points currency with hard currency and bitcoin then you get bitcoin into people's hands and then they're more likely to spend bitcoin on your platform in the future but i do think there is a case to begin building out this

functionality early just the ability to accept bitcoin along fiat particularly for this international case as well where i think eventually the market is going to come to this and it's going to be very obvious that this was the solution at the end of the day and most people worry about timing and i don't think you can be too early here no not at all so then that brings me another question that i had for you and and just to wrap that up like the industry within bitcoin has gotten to a point of maturity where the accounting systems and the invoicing systems are mature enough to incorporate into your business line so it's somewhat seamless it's not as clunky as it was when we started this podcast six years

ago. Okay. So it is possible. That's what you're saying from, for the, for the, for the layman over here, it's possible. Yes. Okay. So another question I have, but I was thinking about listening to him talk about the tops card business about like the collectible business. Don't want to bring up the word, but I'm going to bring up the word, the worst word in the world, the NFTs with Gary V who he probably, it's probably why I'm, it's probably why that's probably why big Mike won't really want to get into Bitcoin because I think he got, I think he, I think he got in with some bad actors and one of them one of them is uh he uh i don't even you know i don't care i ain't friends with the dude i don't if big mike's friends with the guy that's up that's that's

his decision nfts are dumb they're one of the dumbest things in the world okay we all know that it's it's completely it's dumb but there probably is a way where because they're running they run in the issues at tops where it's like they're called redemptions okay redemption is like you get a pack of cards a box of cards and you open it and it's supposed to have a assigned uh assigned um bryce harper card in it and it doesn't but you but you can go and chase down the people you can go back that he said that people like chase them down like like you you can go back and be like i want this card signed and they have to get the card signed and send it back to them there's probably a way where you can authenticate all this stuff no or is that

all bogus it's all bogus um okay so the problem the problem comes like bitcoin the only part of the bitcoin stack that really connects the digital and the physical world is mining turning energy into hashes that produce bitcoin when you try to like real estate is a probably one of the most common examples of this like let's do real estate deeds on the blockchain it's anchored into bitcoin You can certainly do that. You're going to have a record of a real estate title in the Bitcoin blockchain. But at the end of the day, there's nothing Bitcoin can do to enforce that contract. Like if somebody, just a simple example of a Pepsi bottle.

You try to track the supply chain of Pepsi bottles and you connect the physical bottle to a hash in the blockchain. and then when you buy it from the vending machine you own it you own that that hash on the blockchain too technically that's the contractor like i bought this pepsi it's associated with this hash it's mine but if i come and fucking take the pepsi out of your hand and drink it like wasn't really yours at the end of the day the blockchain says it was but i drank it i drank your milkshake that was mine and so that that is where this idea of like tying physical things to the blockchain really falls flat like if you're going tops cards like assigned bryce harper card like yes you could own assigned bryce carper harper uh card on the blockchain but if i come and steal from you

you don't own it i do yes that's true you're right like so there's no there's nothing bitcoin can do to enforce that contract that's something that happens at the social layer of the physical world that's you're 100 correct that you could steal the thing but couldn't you at least know that like that card was real or no this is no no because somebody could just write a hash and be like before they put it in the box and it could not be signed but they could write a hash to say it's signed and it's not signed like there's nothing okay so there's nothing that bitcoin can do to enforce somebody to actually sign it like okay so what you're so we're just gonna we're gonna go through that that the entire the entire business of the nft and all that like all that

that jazz of being like tying things to if it doesn't work i think it's just noise i mean where the nft guys will come is like non-fungible tokens digital goods and you can since it's a digital good doesn't operate in the physical world yes like you can prove ownership of the hash but like the same day like i don't think i think it's very cloud chase i don't i don't see any value in the digital collectibles the digital but let's assume there was digital collectibles people cared about that stuff and there there's been many of these and what we found like open seas perfect example of bored apes like they'll basically launch it's the same problem with fucking airline points and starbuck cash like they'll say like oh these are scarce but then

they can print as many as they want there's nothing stopping them from that okay so that actually makes more sense that ties back to the original point of like they'll say they won't but they say that you're right everyone will say they won't they won't print it so it ties back to the real thing it's like you fanatics works in the actual physical world their own they're selling physical products yeah so what the real thing is is always going to be like and this we're getting to a good point here so what i think businesses like fanatics and your local plumber uh barstool whatever should do just focus on your good business and incorporate bitcoin revenues and treasury balances into your strategy don't try to digitize what you're doing on the blockchain

it doesn't make any sense it hasn't worked i don't think it will ever work it will never work because you can't tie the physical in the digital world outside of hashing um and so yeah when we talk about implementing bitcoin or quote-unquote crypto strategy in a business it should just be about accumulating bitcoin how do you accumulate bitcoin how do you get bitcoin into your customer's hands like rewards um taking a percentage of your free cash flow dumping it into bitcoin holding on balance sheet accepting bitcoin as payment like that's you should be your quote-unquote crypto strategy okay that makes sense so it's so really the the idea of like the whole like it can be digitized is kind of just all noise and it's kind of okay that makes sense because i i was

more curious because like i know i know big mike went down that road with the and i and he sold it he had to sell his company it's like candy digital or something for like a third but like that's why i was like he may be scared of this stuff because i was like let me let me let me uh let me ask this question again because i'm kind of like i don't even understand the nft or all that ever i think it's all kind of bogus so it's like i don't really know and understand why it even has value but the only thing i was thinking though kind of thinking was like the idea of like but if you can't you're right because you could steal it you can steal the cool you could steal the card from me so it doesn't really have you

can't really be like oh i can say this was on this that i this digital mark makes it real when you could just steal the card from me yeah okay so that's it i can drink your milkshake yes so it's kind of like what's the point of what's just complicating something what's the point of complicating it what's the point of complicating something like that there's no point of complicating it and your opportunity cost of following the nft fad or the tokenization of a physical goods fad like that's time not spent figuring out you're right you're running uh you're running you're running a multi-billion dollar business one of the biggest in the world why are you going to waste your time on something like that's kind of a fad yeah so things that are not

a fad that i that i have another question on and that could maybe get tied to like mash and what we're working on is like you someone like fanatics like you're if you're like i want to be the brand I want to be the number one sports brand in the world. You're always going to be taught, like, all the attention is on platforms, okay? All the attention comes from platforms. In a new attention world that would be ran off, like, Fountain and all those guys, in a new attention world that's, like, ran off of Lightning and Bitcoin or whatever,

how does that work? Like, explain that in a new attention world, meaning, like, all these new monetization models for media. because that also is a big going it it's a like they have fanatics live or they're like doing car breaks or whatever but like to me if you're going to be the the everything app like the everything like the everything for sports app like you're eventually going to either can't really buy barstool they should buy barstool but you can't now but like what i'm saying is like you're going to have to create content there's going to be have to be a content world and you

don't really want to be beholden to youtube facebook any fan company because they control everything they control all the data they're not never going to give you the correct data um how does that now work too in the new world of like okay like here's here's one case scenario i was thinking of i was thinking of mash and thinking of fanatics like we're building stuff to like to uh essentially we can remonetize like we're going to remonetize publishers we're going fix their engagement, turn any publisher into a platform. Couldn't Fanatics, Fanatics has a relationship with every website, with every sports team.

Thought of Eagles.com, Thought of Sixers, Patriots, whatever. Couldn't they essentially be able to collect data or something like that around customers with something like Mesh that they couldn't get any other way? Because you're not going to be able to get it from YouTube. Like, imagine if the NFL was like, we're going to stop putting our stuff on YouTube. We want it back on our platforms.

We want it back on Philadelphia Eagles. We want all our highlights to go there. We want all that to go there. Couldn't you monetize or collect data in a way that would be different using Lightning that you currently couldn't do? Because you're never going to build a platform. You're not going to build the next YouTube.

Fanatics is not going to build the next YouTube. Yeah, well, we've talked about this before. We can cut it if you're not comfortable talking about it. MASH just talked about implementing the ads, right? Yeah, no, we can talk about anything. You said we don't cut anything. We don't cut anything. Yeah.

Let's talk about anything. Why does YouTube have all that data and hold it tightly? Because they make all the revenue from the ads that they get the leverage with the data. So similarly, it would be a completely new model, but this idea, it's all about incentives, so bringing it back to your platform then trying to monetize on your platform it's creating an incentive model that incentivizes

people to interact with your monetization tools um as a company and this like what you guys are working on a mash with this advertising placement where you can put an advertisement on your site via mash on the back end and then the advertisements engage engage base so it's like a survey or something like that so that's a great way to collect data and the user is incentivized to do they're getting sats to engage with that they're getting paid to do that and that helps you hone in on survey responses and then cost of acquisition all that stuff yeah because there has been there's been those models before there's definitely been engagement based ads before but i think the thing that you always come back to i think this is the right way to look at it and i just can't

sometimes conceptualize it my brain is like when you're getting back hard hard assets you're much more willing to do something than you are what is what were the ads before the survey-based ads were just the time suck you didn't get anything in return no you did but it would be like oh you earn you earn airline miles to get like i've seen a million of those companies like trust me like when i worked at barcelona i've seen a million of those companies like oh you earn you're earning these points and then you can you can get a hundred dollar gift card one day yeah but the points aren't worth your time whereas the bitcoin will be worth your time yes that is it's matching that um time capital with an actual like monetary capital and airline miles do not equate to time

capital bitcoin does so then in terms of worth another question that i have and i kind of hit on earlier but now it's like if the future of all this is personal brand it's all personal brand okay future of media media sorry not all this i meant media the future of media is personal brand what is what is the incentivization of the stack of like let's take draw and beat again draw and beat again i'm gonna i'm gonna play in the nba i'm gonna make all this money this way but then i'm gonna go create a media company or whatever something for my personal brand wouldn't isn't it better to start to accept bitcoin and use these type of like engagement tools because you can't be censored and you can't really be stopped correct like that's what i always

think about too it's like we're at a point in the point in the world where it's like we're like and i know like everyone like i'm not talking about like like like the censorship idea of like like think about twitter like twitter like they're like disney pulls off the platform they pull off the platform they pull you can pull anyone off a platform wouldn't you as like a a sports star or whatever wouldn't you want to start to build something on this layer from the idea of like no matter what happens in the world or what happens in my career like things can go wrong in your career like i'm not gonna be like censored like isn't that like the noster thing i don't know i don't i'm just thinking of like the idea of like fanatics has all the relationships with

all these sports stars it's may not be espn that is like the the leader to give you the information anymore it may just be the person you're going one the one you're getting rid of the the middlemen of the espn brand fanatics could be like the back end that powers all their merch and does all that stuff and all and and and all like their collectibles or whatever but from the front end how they get information out into the world why does everyone not decide to go build on like why is everyone not building on like or like at least looking into that yet is it just because youtube's too big and like all these things are too big yeah i mean network effects are massive okay on these platforms where it's just easy i

mean the friction to attain the network effect the audience network effects um that you could on youtube or twitter or facebook whatever it may be twitch tiktok like it's it's a much bigger hurdle to go it alone but i do think we're too early right now to realize that that dream of independent content creators really running everything we're making incredible progress incredible we made incredible things like podcasting 2.0 and oster um i do think eventually they'll get there but yeah it's like if you build it they will come somebody's got to build it i do think if you were to create uh the conditions to enable this type of thing it could be massively beneficial for you in the long run um and then like other things too like before you even get to

the the extreme end of the spectrum of adversarial thinking of like athletes getting censored like again going back to like low-hanging fruits uh operating in a world where that isn't happening there's still benefits to me like podcasting 2.0 people are listening to the show they're streaming us bitcoin as they stream me bitcoin i'm getting 80 of it logan's getting a percentage of it we're donating five percent to open sats that's happening immediately so when you port that model over to something like sports memorabilia where fanatics is has the rights to sell jerseys or merch on behalf of individual athletes like they could create a business structure similar podcasting 2.0 is like once the invoice is paid fanatics gets their cut which is their royalties plus the

opex and then the athlete gets paid immediately and maybe their management team gets paid immediately or something like that that's the other so that's the other thing too but that's i think you're saying it better than the way i was trying to think of it is like with like a a way that you can see it basically every dollar where everything goes instantly yes like your management team like i guess that's what i was kind of getting at is like the new model of the world is like kind of what McAfee did where it's like okay you have we have there's we're on YouTube but we have we have eight employees nine employees it's like being able to sit there and be like okay like like we we all knew each other you know what I mean like we all knew each other so it was like

okay like there's no that's the most generous person in the world we don't gotta worry about that what I'm thinking of is like the new world model though it's like people that are really good at YouTube. Like you go to youtubejobs.com, like the really good people, like they don't know those people. Like, like, like let's take like, and when I say censorship is, is the wrong word because you can get sent for anything, anything, use the wrong clip. You're censored. Like the wrong clip of like, I use the wrong music. I'm talking off YouTube. I didn't even know it. Okay. I just got a strike on YouTube. But the idea of being able to be like, okay, I can then build out my own pr messaging media arm instantly and i know where all the money goes like that's the

another huge part of like bitcoin lightning correct where it's like yeah being able to know where all the money's going like where like okay like you hire this team of people i want to build the next i want to go be a i want to build like what paul george built with the thing or whatever you know where all the money's going almost instantly and like where everyone's getting paid too it's certainly much better however there are like social engineering attacks to this model that could happen like so for example i'm a basketball player fanatics is selling my merch on behalf of me um i'm not saying they would do this but like just to level set make it clear that there will still be a level of trust necessary in this business

engagement it's like fanatics could hypothetically like sell a piece of my merch and give them an invoice from a node that my split isn't involved in and they could sell that merch i would be none the wiser to it unless i'm auditing their back-end like inventory so like they would have to provide that back-end inventory data like with the invoices paid which takes a level of trust and transparency for both parties involved but ideally yes well that's pretty if you're if you're engaged in a honest business transaction you can make that flow as simple as possible and the accounting is immediate so okay so that is possible okay so you could do it you got to like the bitcoin or adversarial thinker coming out now like there's ways you don't got a bitcoin adversarial thing

you don't gotta do that you do that enough dude i'm gonna do that enough we're talking to big mike right now we're talking about our first bitcoin for business podcast and i'll know it's gonna be number two so we we we want we want big mike to get every we want big mike to get the right information okay i just gave him the right information think adversarial big mike you gotta think through these stuff so these questions will come up a lot of smart athlete Aaron Rodgers is like yo like how do I know that you're not sending invoices and selling my merch uh true it's like a split that I'm not a part of so then the so then now I mean we're getting to I don't think I have many more questions because it really comes down to if you ask me it's the the answer the answer

is what you said in the beginning it's just the idea of like okay first mover advantage and and leveraging the relationships you have to actually make a better customer experience for people that consume Fanatics products. Because it seems like it can work across almost any product line, but the real thing is just using Bitcoin in the correct way.

And it's not just like trying to make up all these like jazz, like the NFT bullshit. It's like just using it in a way that's like, okay this is what it really can do for for finance yeah and it's being practical practical and pragmatic about where you are as a business where bitcoin is as a technology and it's maturation and so like again going back to rewards i think rewards is the lowest hanging no-brainer way to integrate it because you're not dumping a bunch of your cash flow into bitcoin holding on your balance sheet stomaching the volatility like you're leveraging something that you're just

replacing something that you're already leveraging with a better product and it's sort of the lowest risk way to get into get bitcoin into your business model for fanatics specifically um and then you get bitcoin in the hands of your customers they become more familiar with it then maybe down the line you implement something like uh accepting bitcoin as payment and then further down the line you implement something like automatic revenue splits with the athletes that you're representing and then further down the line you just completely transition to a company run on Bitcoin

and you can run all this on Bitcoin you can yeah I mean there's probably it's still very early it is early but the problem is it's a zero to one problem not everybody has Bitcoin so it's like thinking of creative unique ways but if I'm Big Mike

if you're talking Big Mike and I'm Big Mike right now I'm thinking about the idea of like when if we're going down the road of recession inflation we all know that's happening let's just get that out of the way let's not act like it's not happening maybe recession i don't know i don't know that i don't i cannot i don't know what ira is i don't know what recession means but i know inflation's real you know that two quarters in a row of negative gdp okay so

that's probably going to happen the first thing you're going to take off is like anything that's like an extra spend obviously i think sports are the biggest in the world like people will go to sports events no matter bread and circuses that's yeah yeah during the fall of empires people are really into sports to get distracted from the the real yes the real world but you could essentially save your motherfucking business by being like give people rewards back in bitcoins like it's saving money yeah i mean imagine imagine like and that's getting back to the zero one problem people not having bitcoin i think this is that's why i'm extremely thankful that companies like fold exists because i think this is one of the best sly roundabout ways to get bitcoin into the

hands of people um and they may be like i got this bitcoin cash back like whatever i'll just let it sit there and then over time they see the value the purchasing power that bitcoin accrue and they're like oh man maybe i should look into this they see what bitcoin is like holy crap this is massive and then you could easily see a scenario which fanatics users feel indebted to fanatics for introducing them to bitcoin become even more emboldened to go back and do business with fanatics to buy more merch to interact with the live streams the betting platform whatever it may be yeah like you would definitely you would be like okay because they are helping me save money this is what i'll use to buy my tickets i won't use to go to ticket master like they end up being a

ticketing platform i think fanatics is trying to be everything yeah they care about me so i do want to support them yeah like they're coming because the way the way big mike's thinking about it is they're thinking about like 10 20 30 years from now yeah so at least he's thinking about it in a way where it's like if you start doing this now first mover advantage you could and again there's low hanging fruit rewards i think is a massively low hanging fruit and it's lowest friction the enterprise apis exist you probably don't have to put up a shit ton of capital you don't have to take on a bunch of bitcoin exposure risk yourself as a company it's all operated on the back end by Fold and other companies like them.

And then you just begin to see how your customers are interacting with it. You get feedback from them. I think eventually, like, holding Bitcoin as a company will be validated, and then you go from rewards to accepting Bitcoin to all the other exotic and innovative solutions that we described, whether, like, payment splits and international commerce

and all that stuff. That makes... It's an order of operations, I think. Yeah, that's the way Big Mike's going to think about it. I'm thinking about it from like this. I think about just all the cool shit in the future. Yeah, I mean, big goal, eventually going to Bitcoin Standard. We're doing all these cool things as a company.

But to get to that end goal, you got to take small steps for small step rewards. All right. Big Mike, you heard it here first. You're going to become the Amazon of sports if you listen to Marty. And there we go. I like the structure. I like the show. I like you peppering me with questions.

How did I do? I think you did pretty well. I think I don't really still understand everything Bitcoin can do. So when we do more of these, I'll be able to understand more about how companies can use it. Because everyone's always like, well, we've got to build these new things. We've got to build these new, like, they're not going to, companies aren't going to go away. They're not actually going away. So there has to be more information from the Bitcoin world of how a company itself can use it.

Yeah. Because that's the thing. Practically. Practically. And that's the big problem that Bitcoiners, myself included, have had. It's just like you need to start accepting Bitcoin. It's not really practical for multi-billion dollar businesses. What is the first step they can take?

Again, beat the dead horse. Rewards, I think, makes perfect sense here. Rewards. And then the other thing, like you said earlier, it's probably rewards and chargebacks. because those are the two things there's a lot of chargebacks in that industry yeah

well then that's that's where it gets interesting where the company can actually dictate user behavior because they're like we're taking on so much chargeback risk

that we need you to pay this way so that we eliminate that risk for our business but that again too I think it may still be a bit too early

for that but down the line eventually okay I like this I like the new Bitcoin for business people tell us

in the comments what do you want to see us do next yeah which business should we do next I don't know dude We got to do another. We can do another.

Maybe it should be user-generated topics, you know? Yeah, let the users pick. Drop it in the comment. Drop it. Tell us. Tweet it, Marty. Tell us. What business do you want us to discuss how Bitcoin could implement it?

Because I think this is how we got to be thinking of this now. The super smart people do the super smart things. You do the super smart things. We got to be thinking about it in a way where it's like. What's practical. What's practical and why a business would do this now and why they should do it to keep market share for the next 30 years or whatever. Because every company should be able to implement it. I don't think there's many people that are even like telling companies like this is what

you should be doing or why. If you're listening to this and you want to see a list of companies that can help you do this, go to 1031.vc or portfolio companies. You see it. You're pumping your bags right now. We came in here to do this for Philadelphia, and you're pumping your bags. I think the companies in our portfolio can help you do this if you're looking to do it. Fold is one of them.

Fine, fine. You're pumping your bags. Now I get the format of this show, which is going to be you pumping your bags and me asking the questions. All right, I'm good. I got enough. Thank you.

Thank you, Marty. Big Mike's done for the day. Peace and love for you. Sticky. Thank you.