TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - Rabbit Hole Recap #176: Party rip

Episode Date: December 10, 2021

This week Marty and Matt discuss: - Swan adds taproot support and api, no longer supporting ny - Major swiss tech company ceo runs surveillance operation - Malicious actor appears to be attacking Tor - Sparrow Wallet v1.5.3 - Mercury Wallet v0.4.62 - btc-rpc-explorer v3.3.0 - Zap android v0.5.4-beta - Lightning Terminal v0.6.1-alpha - Lightning Pool v0.5.3-alpha - Elements v0.21.0.1 - Private home mining using a VPN guide Shoutout to our sponsors: Cash App Unchained Capital Braiins - Daniel's thread Compass Mining HodlHodl

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you've had a dynamic where money's become freer than free if you talk about a fed just gone nuts all all the central banks going nuts so it's all acting like safe haven i believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency bitcoin wins in the world of fiat currencies bitcoin is the victor i mean And that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin. If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. Matthew, we meet in person. It's been a while.

Let's fucking go. Actually, we were together last night, but. I'm excited I finally got to meet Carr for the first time. Yeah. Carr's over here. He doesn't have a mic today, so he's not going to be able to talk, but we're set up. Well, he could take one of these if he needed to. Yeah.

He's doing his job right now. We're in an undisclosed location, freaks. We're together. uh oh they don't even know that we're together because they like we have split cameras we can't we have to meet in the middle and hug on one side of the table let's just leave them guessing like maybe it's just uh it's a like a magic trick okay all right all right this is rabbit hole recap rip 176 we're counting the rabbit hole recaps now we've got a crew here 176 weeks in a row yes as you can see we have our good friend yassin in the background he's working diligently kathy's working

hard he's been working the whole time don't worry uh we've got other bitcoiners here some of which don't want to be immediately regret sitting there i i believe i've peaked being in a cameo on a rabbit hole recap this is this is what life's about i can i can die peacefully now so thank you for that okay well cheers to that we're gonna have you like on the interview series again soon we got to catch up he was he was right in the beginning yeah that's uh that's that's a a cornerstone episode of this podcast people go back and actually uh who did that orange pill orange but one of my family members are like i listened that episode i think it might have been my mom so i really like that yassin fellow um matt what'd you think of the nashville

bitcoiner meetup last night sorry i have to hold my mic and i put it down so i could get the bottle pop uh it was fucking it was fucking awesome it was we had such a good crowd i you know i think it's really special because it brings like a new coiner crowd and then also like an experienced weathered bitcoin crowd and it's intermixed together which is like very rare for meetups i feel yeah it was shout out to the people in this room who organized the meetup it is a high quality very high energy i was happy to have been asked to participate for you freaks who weren't there and don't know what went on very heavy mining talk uh it was completely mining focused yeah so that's also something that's unique with the nashville bitcoin meetup is that every month

it's a monthly bitcoin meetup every month it's a different topic um so this this month uh was mining and it was really cool how it was you know there was home mining for no kyc mining and then there's also um you know the largest mining pool in the world was there as well uh you have remote miners you have on-grid miners all mixed together really fucking awesome yeah the content curation for last night was on point uh it's public it was there so we can talk about like a uh uh econo alchemist and diverter first time i ever met them in person yeah they put on some incredible uh met eco's entire family yeah um who was the gentleman who did the uh like his dr fomo dr fomo that was a great presentation uh if we can get that presentation online i think it

will be important for freaks to see uh particularly uh if you're doing home mining he had some experiences with uh burning up his his uh his electric panel and like eco one-upped him like he burned up the cables all the way to the power pole yeah uh it's not easy but like diverter was saying last night the resources to mine at home uh uh the resources to learn how to mine from home are greater and more abundant than they ever have been in bitcoin's history so there's plenty of resources out there plenty of people doing it there is a home mining movement obviously there's trade-offs uh econo and diverter talked about those trade-offs last night and then like you said yeah we had the largest mining pool in the world there we had colin um from luxor was there

as well with kevin zhang from foundry i think we do have to give a shout out to kevin somebody at the meetup last night gave him props where props are due he was pivotal in that uh that greenwich facility in upstate new york and really getting a utility company to implement bitcoin mining every time it's pronounced i immediately think greenwich connecticut yeah but it's spelled green ridge yeah green ridge uh power um yeah they were the first utility company they took what was a coal plant transformed it to a natural gas plant uh and started mining bitcoin with their excess capacity like foundry made that happen kevin i don't know if he was at foundry at the time but he was instrumental foundry's like pretty new right yeah i think i mean i think

they were in stealth mode for a while and then they popped up like hey we have this massive pool it has to be one of the quickest i didn't i thought we were kind of past the point where a mining pool can just like come out of nowhere and be the largest mining pool in the world when you have a barry's war chest and people like kevin zhang running the show uh anything is possible uh except for segway 2x but but uh yeah literally everything is not possible yeah the uh Yeah, no, Greenwich has actually moved south. I believe they're doing a nuclear facility in South Carolina now. And they're mining Bitcoin with it as well, which is bullish to see.

Bitcoin mining incentivizing nuclear generation. We're supporting nuclear generation as it's getting developed around the country and around the world. Stop shutting down nuclear power plants. Freaks, politicians, anybody out there is thinking about it. It's very dumb. Yeah, freaks. Marty's blaming you for it. Stop doing that.

we're having a powwow here but before we get too deep into our powwow Carl let's pull up Clark's dashboard we will give you still consolidating price I guess people are saying did the price crash happen to 42 between we are so fucking poor did the price

happen before last week or between the last two episodes it happened between the two recent episodes because I I bought we bought new servers for bitcoin tv and we had a pay in bitcoin and we literally sent it at the top and like immediately collapsed afterwards that's uh that is a good uh spend right there the vendor like four hours

later sent me a private message just with a crying face well since you brought it up let's talk about it i think you've i mean obviously we know that you've been working on bitcoin tv wiz and others uh what's the plan there are we building a new youtube are bitcoiners going to fix well i mean i think it'd be offensive to say that to big you know that bitcoin tv is a new youtube uh because youtube could go fuck themselves yeah i mean like 2006 youtube yeah i i think that um as someone who comes you know goes on air with you once a week for the last 176 weeks um when we talk about bitcoin when we talk about uh low time preference when we talk about trying to you know build something for the future with a long time horizon

you can't do that building on quicksand and building on youtube is quicksand we are literally months overdue from getting banned on youtube i don't i don't know how we have not gotten banned from youtube yet i expect most bitcoiners to get banned from youtube eventually so it's partially that it's partially this idea of having kind of open access to bitcoin content without that that centralized uh censorship possibility that you can have but to be completely fair right now the way bitcoin tv is being built out uh there is some censorship possibility uh it's it's you know it's it's me whiz and bitkite um are deciding which content's on there we don't even have open ability to load it but it's all built on peer tube you can host your own peer tube instance

the dream is that anyone can run like a bitcoin tv instance on their own node at home and we can all peer up together it's not cumbersome it is uh there's a lot of data that that's why we you know spend so much money on servers it gets very expensive but you can choose which content you want to have on it and any content that's shared will be able to um be uploaded to your peer tube instance then the second thing is when someone goes to rabbit hole recap on youtube as soon as they finish rabbit hole recap they're suggested a million horrible shit coin content to go to next right and we don't have that content on bitcoin tv and then the third reason is podcasting 2.0 absolutely empowering it is super fucking cool that we just see sats come from the listeners

directly into our lightning node nodes we've got the split going now so you yeah we we split it up what was it three or four weeks ago me and you have a split car gets a split and dj or developer gets a split too so that's big fuck yes yeah that's based on rss putting a pub key in rss bitcoin tv already supports subscribing to the video channels via rss so all we have to do is add a lightning pub key in there and you can do the same exact thing and breeze and other apps can easily integrate with it because it'll be an open standard so do for video what podcasting 2.0 is doing for audio yeah and exactly what's the trinity just said like you'll be able to do that and this i mean i tweeted out earlier today and we've been talking about it behind the scenes

for a bit now and as we always do we talk business on air but like that's what we want to do at tftc I teased it last week too we want to Bitcoinize the whole stack not only that but use more distributed content distribution platforms like ilikeghost.org because you can self host it's open source

and just creating a new way to do media and content distribution and monetization that people will look back in like a decade and be like holy shit this changed the game we're going to turn it up here freaks we're going to turn it up that's all i'm going to say right now fuck yes 100 and um yeah i i think

i think bitcoin tv is is kind of just providing that platform um for both us and for any other bitcoin content creators uh and i think ultimately long term like you can see it go outside of just bitcoin things yeah pretty much everything becomes a bitcoin thing in a post bitcoin world But the key there is let's move away from the ad model. Let's move to free open source software. Let's move to the audience funded model. And that goes for not only the content, it also goes for Bitcoin TV itself. i mean google makes money on youtube through ad sales when they put those algorithmic ads in um bitcoin tv presumably we'd have like a nice little slider or something so if you're streaming stats to the show you know one percent two percent of those stats goes to bitcoin tv because the servers are extremely expensive yeah yeah we will still have ads for time but we would like we've

talked about this in the past we would like to transition to a value for value model yeah we you have to pay rent yeah um i've got a family to feed uh the but no we're at the very beginning stages of this though too i think it is going to become more popular uh we're going to build a bit and we'll have more news in the months to come yeah we're not going to do like announcement of an announcement no um so even though we kind of just did you'll know it when you see it all right now we can finally get to clark's dashboard we were going to go to clark's dashboard and then you pulled away right oh we started talking about price and then i started talking about bitcoin tv servers yeah yeah okay continue speaking of price the current price of bitcoin according to clark's

dashboard is 48 205 are we in a bear market marty uh no i don't think so it's an it's an it's a an eternal bull market is it a super cycle are you do you prescribe to the super cycle theory the super cycle started on january 3rd 2009 it's been continuing uh ever since then do you think we're gonna have an 85% drawdown ever again I wouldn't be surprised yes or no I so 85% from here what is 15% it's really that's really low that's like six seven grand like I don't think that's gonna happen no no so I think yes we're gonna have many 85% drawdowns I just I think we're gonna pump and then we're gonna have the 85% like you need to have you blow off top then the 85% drawdown so you go to like 200k freaks that are better than me at math but if you go to like 200k 400k then

go down by 85 percent whatever that price is that's like the kind of 85 drawdown you would see yeah um i don't know i don't know that's another thing too like i think they're i think right now Now, Bitcoin adoption up to this point has been a lot of obviously enthusiasts and early adopters and people who really get it. And I mean, I think what I've seen, I think there's people that are tangential to Bitcoin, not even directly associated with it or started adopted as a Bitcoin. I mean, MicroStrategy was obviously the first last year, but I'm seeing personally more and more companies incorporate Bitcoin on the balance sheet. And MicroStrategy doesn't own any Bitcoin. That's true. well they don't they own it they don't do they own it they hold it they don't hold it do they

own it though they own the rights to some bitcoin i guess we could say that they have the ability to sue someone over bitcoin's value yeah are we just gonna are we just gonna bully michael say it's a collaborative custody no i mean they can do whatever the fuck they want i yeah they can do it michael michael i'm not a shareholder i don't give a shit michael we have our differences we we go back and forth on on esg and all that stuff but it's all out of love collaborative custody hold your keys you're such a good advocate you're such a good marketer for bitcoin like follow it up with some confidence in your ability to actually harness the asset the way it's supposed to be but i mean i would go further than that once again they could do whatever the fuck they want

but i think a company like microstrategy is like uniquely positioned to set up their own custody model they don't even have to do collaborative custody yeah they are a tech company right i mean coinbase coinbase doesn't rely on someone else to hold their coins kraken doesn't ftx doesn't yeah they figured it out cash app creator their own internal fucking wang chun deciding to to donate you don't have that on the list donate to uh luke dasher like they took a 9 000 bitcoin utxo what a chad and then split out one bitcoin to donate to core dev luke and then they paid no fee but they did a zero fee transaction because they mined it with the own pool they own yeah like they figured out how to do custody yeah they're not keeping it with

you know a regulated custodian and not holding their own keys a 9 000 bitcoins utxo bitcoin utxo yeah that's uh that's some powerful consolidation there talk about dust consolidation you think wang chung's dust is like 50 bitcoin we still haven't get all this together we still haven't We still haven't done the Clark Moody dashboard, but it really makes you think when we talk about whirlpool capacity. And he just fucking does that. That was

great of him. I'm happy for Luke Dasher that he got a Bitcoin from Wang Chong, and I think other people donated as well. It's good to see him getting supported. I know he's controversial to a lot of people, but he is integral to Bitcoin's development up to this point. I think if you understand

how the first soft fork in Bitcoin worked, i mean peter rizzo wrote an incredible piece on in bitcoin magazine um i did like cringe a little bit uh i support it i'm happy that uh that wang chun uh supported luke um obviously i've dedicated a lot of my time to trying to help open source developers get funding there's so many good open source projects and contributors that need funding which is fantastic to see but the fact that it happened all publicly on twitter yeah and it was a reused address um that was a 9 000 bitcoin utxo and now everyone knows that's luke's address so then we can watch him going forward i also

thought it was kind of ironic because luke um was one of the main people that got a segwit and it's a legacy address that he got donated to he had a one in the front of it um but yeah On the privacy side, it was a little bit. It was bad OPSEC, if we will. It was like as bad as it could be. That is true. That is true. Hey, putting his balls on the table.

But it wasn't, it was a known F2Pool address. So on Wang Chun's side. Oh, he donated from F2Pool? Wasn't his own stash? Yeah, that was F2Pool's address. Oh. I mean, that's his own stash. He is F2Pool.

And people that were around during the block size wars will remember that wang chun uh played a lot of bits he played a lot of fucking games uh and probably traded the markets to fuck around he messed with the version bits like f2 pool would mine a block and say they were segment ready then they would mine another and say they weren't and they were probably trading it because it was going the price is going up and down with it yeah was it though i don't yeah was it i don't remember that i remember being like very consolidated until like it finally got activated and it was like take off it was moving a decent amount i I mean, back then it was like $5,000, $4,000 Bitcoin,

but like a $500 move is 12% or something. Yeah, it's material. Yeah, and if anybody who is here in the live audience wants to fact check any of us at any given point in time, please. Yeah, we have a pretty massive live audience here, not necessarily in terms of numbers, but in terms of influence.

Yeah, yeah. We got Ty in the background. I fucking love Ty. Ty, when are you moving to Austin? There he is. austin bitcoiners nashville nashville's putting uh nashville's putting a very big recruiting effort in for ty we're keeping ty he's coming to austin he's not coming to nashville yeah i'm still moving to austin oh shit what are you doing here get in here you're good you're on the mic

you're not on the camera but you're on the mic okay you can just what you're coming to austin yeah no two ways about it i'll be in what am i oh yeah sorry Put your mic underneath the technical issues. Yeah, I'll be moving to Austin. Don't worry about it. Nashville is not getting me, but this is a cool city and I'm bought into everything this is all about. Yeah. See a scene.

This is you just got taken out the camera. This is a really cool neighborhood where we're recording right now. It reminds me. I don't know what it reminds me of. Just really cool businesses. Very cool vibe. It's definitely booming. I like Nashville.

Part of this area reminds me of East End Austin. Doesn't it? Yeah. Is that where Rainy is? No, Rainy is like downtown. East side is... I really like Rainy Street. I thought Rainy was fucking dope.

Rainy is like the Bachelorette Mecca in Austin. Really? Oh yeah. yeah well like nashville's kind of that as a city yeah wow yeah at least for bachelorettes yeah what are your thoughts on nashville how do you feel about this it's a cool city yeah it reminds me a lot of austin yeah yeah um it does me as well we got a very strong bitcoin

community here now very strong that's what like i'm saying like austin crew like they're putting in a big recruiting effort up here in nashville we need to we need to watch our six it's not a We need to watch our six in Austin. It's a very subtle shill, though. It's not as overt. You guys in Austin are relentless. Absolutely relentless. Here, it's a little bit more like, hey, take a look.

You like it? Come here. Well, our recruiting strategy worked on you. I know. Austin, watch your six. Nashville's coming for us, okay? We've got to be careful. Should we get to Clark Moody's Nashville?

One cuck puck's going to get you 2,076 sets. i gotta eat crow i said we'd never go below a trillion dollar market cap and here we are 910 that was quick billion dollar market cap uh this is going to be a nice segue into uh the conversation i want to get to which is the fact that we are 229 blocks away from the next difficulty adjustment was estimated to be on december 11th and it's estimated to be a upwards adjustment at eight percent that's because blocks are coming in at nine minutes and 15 seconds on average uh we'll get back to that after we get through the the dashboard there's 6192 sats and clark's mempool right now uh one sat per byte fees are going through and samurai whirlpool

uh we're gonna have to make the disclaimer 1031's investor in samurai uh is um whirlpool unspent capacity is 4,324.88 bitcoins or 2.2 billion. We have Ty here. There's no such thing as bitcoins.

No, it's bitcoin. There's no such thing as bitcoin. There's UTXOs. There's no coins. The coins don't exist. You have UTXOs and every time a UTXO gets transacted, it gets basically smelted and new UTXOs are created. There's no such thing as a coin. A coin doesn't exist duh then a bitcoin doesn't exist too like your your argument your semantic argument right

now is going to fail flat on its face because if i'm wrong you're wrong too in this case no no because bitcoin the network right and then you have bitcoin the currency yes but there's no coins you have the u.s dollar reserve system the network and then you have u.s dollar but there are literally dollars like i have dollars in my pocket right now like they're dollar fucking bills you know but there's no bitcoins matt is short bitcoin matt is short bitcoin is as evidenced by that cash on the table he's not all in he's not on zero you piece of shit cash app is i have cash app cash is great for privacy it is i mean i have my wallet somewhere here i've got cash too uh austin texas everything's bigger in texas they give you hundred dollar bills at the atm

that's what happened in new york i don't know if that was odell carries shit coins it's bitcoins freaks uh the point makes no sense though there's no coins i'm glad ty agrees with me i agree we're not going to spend too much time debating this i'm right you started it the in-persons rhr hit different they do i miss this yeah why didn't you move to austin why aren't you moving to austin ask them is it a competition though that we were debating is it a competition between nashville and austin wow i don't think the scene's asking if it's a competition between nashville and austin it's not it's not a competition there is no competition it's a sister party doesn't look

yeah you got something to say no we need we need i agree we need parallel citadels monasteries if you will we're gonna trade with yeah who are we gonna trade with that's what car is asking yeah yeah we'll give you we got cows they have cows too it's a very like there's not much to trade between yo car grab this other mic over here they have here i'll get they uh but tennessee has cows up north big gun states as well what are we going to trade i love this this is just like a party episode this is fucking great we've never had an episode like this before no yeah we're talking about what do you guys have look i look i i intend to i intend to visit you and car and all the other bitcoiners in austin all the time well we have

bitcoin developers developers we can trade you some bitcoin developers now developers stay in austin you guys you guys can build the the culture up here the developers are staying in austin okay maybe we'll make one-off trades every once in a while but we need the intellectual capital you want them in texas too like yes tennessee is very free state but it's not a competition marty uh why why so threatened yeah i'm not threatened am i threatened am i projecting right now you're blushing now i gotta do he is blushing a little bit but it's the whiskey it's the right it's the whiskey and i'm wearing this ll bean marty gets the whiskey cheeks ll bean if you want to sponsor the pod i love your i love your merch but you have to accept bitcoin first

and hold it on your balance you should probably make that happen we could probably make that happened um the uh the point i wanted to make back to clark's dashboard uh again we're 229 blocks away from the next difficulty adjustment estimated to be uh eight percent upward adjustment car if you can go to like the tftc i read about this this week uh we're about to hit ashrate all-time highs i think before the end of 2022 that's pretty bullish and difficulty potential familia yeah yeah right miners are print so keep going down like we're so when i wrote this this is uh peter woola's estimation according to if you go down brains uh insights at brains.com we'll go to that next but uh the all-time high in may was 183 exahash a second so on whenever i

wrote this did you make that screenshot yeah and you didn't take a picture of your screen with your phone have you read the bag it's all so according to according to brains according to insights i just like boomer marty according to fan of boomer marty according to insights we're very close to all-time high earlier this week and if you keep going down i did the calculations i did some math on my cell phone keep going keep going uh yeah so the estimate earlier this week was 6.2 so now we're at 8% at 6.2. If it stays static, the next difficulty adjustment

would hit 23, surely, and the all-time high is like 25-something. And if we had another... Keep going down. What did I do? Yeah, it would be 5.2% away at 6.2%. Sundays with family and friends are great days. They are great days. So this was written on Monday.

The point I'm trying to make, so we're going to have an 8% difficulty adjustment upwards which is going to get it so we'll be less than 5.2 percent away from the difficulty all-time high so when do we hit it i think before the new year it should be bullish i think do we hit a new all-time price in the newest dollar high yeah let's see what before the new year i mean brains is so you got you oh yeah you freaks can see this i think we definitely hit a difficulty oh no it's not hash rate all-time high yet um i mean isn't that just isn't isn't

difficulty essentially one-to-one with hash rate uh i mean it trails it but it's not one-to-one because of the two weeks like uh i mean like on a long enough like if you if you spread it out if you uh smooth it out i mean they're obviously tied together but um if you do like a two-week moving average of hash rate it should be one-to-one with difficulty uh i don't want to do that math i think actually yes seen can answer there's no math it's directly proportional yeah yeah it's it's like the one it is a one-to-one correlation yes okay there we go thank you this is awesome we should have you seen on every episode car go back to uh they cover over the all-time high difficulty i believe it was 25 trillion

um oh like in may in may like where the light blue bar yeah there yeah 25 trillion four and six 46 billion um and so that's uh basically the amount of hash is yet to produce uh on average or actually i'm not even going to try to describe that right now but the point is we're getting close to difficulty and hash rate all-time highs before the end of the year what were we saying in may june july as hash rate i think i think i said q2 2022 of recover we were way off i mean we thought it was gonna take a lot longer yeah i also thought china was attacking us yeah he did um i think it's like i'm astonished like i thought you know who called it out gotta get props for props are due a lot of people like you're crazy it's not gonna happen uh fryer

uh was yeah fryer haas was on on twitter like it's gonna happen by the end of the year and he he seems to be right you're just gonna stare at me i mean i you know okay what do you mean okay what do you think about it hitting hash rate all-time highs after the china uh forced i mean i think a lot of people said the hash was going to come back i mean i think it's very easy to just say bullish things over and over again and then people only remember the bullish things that were correct well which is like what the main critique of 200k by conference day started as and then i started to believe it well but that's different the main critique that i'm trying to bring up is that we were wrong we thought it was going to take a year we were 100 wrong but i think

it's important for people to realize uh it's important for people to think in a contrarian way or think in an adversarial way and not assume that you know the most bullish scenario is the scenario that will happen but it it did turn out to be the most bullish scenario to happen and i and i will agree that one of the single most bullish things that have happened over the last eight years that i've been in bitcoin is china banning mining a lot of that mining leaving china bitcoin still you know taking out blocks every every 10 minutes uh and coming back up on it wasn't every 10 minutes it was like longer on average or whatever and then like that is like it's extremely bullish and it's super not priced in because most of the people in this

industry still think proof of work is the problem that needs to be solved so they're just like on a whole different level they're just you know focused on proof of stake they're not even paying attention to what's happening in the mining world um and that i mean i've been tweeting about this a lot somewhat critically and more overtly earlier like i think it is poetically incredible poetically beautiful that all the coiners like oh pow is like bad for the environment like you don't want bitcoin because it has all this energy usage and they're literally throwing out the opportunity to chase what is going to be one of the largest energy revolutions that we've ever experienced as humanity as bitcoin uh via the proof of work mechanism and in the incentives of the mining

industry being able to monetize stranded and wasted energy sources uh like they're completely neglecting that i don't even think they're neglecting it i don't think they understand it uh trying to go the other way of proof of stake as energy efficient and environmentally friendly and they're going to miss out on the ability to actually take part of the energy revolution that that proof of work provides i love you bake bake fake stop buying nfts you gotta stack more sats bro what are you doing man what how do we feel about like nfts on bitcoin i think they're fine i mean if rare pepe's pump i'm a happy guy because i was gifted rare pepe's a few years ago on the podcast you still have those keys all right they're on an open dime car shaking his head

where can we buy open dime or open dime merch oh speaking of which i came i came to the the nashville bitcoin meetup and all i got was this fucking open dime like is it loaded no oh actually i'm gonna load it right now i do owe somebody a wedding gift so as we're doing this i'm gonna i'm gonna load up an open dime um oh hey matt real quick bitcoin mags bitcoin magazine yeah Oh, the actual print magazine is fucking dope as fuck, right? Dude. It was sick. I have yours, Ty.

Thank you. Yeah, you want to? Oh, wait. Dude, it's so clean. The amount of detail that they put into it. Yeah. I was really impressed, man. Really impressed.

And it's a Barnes & Noble. Show the back ad. Show the back ad. Like, you could. I don't know who did it, Matt. That's fucking awesome. designed it whoever like

there's a whole team over there they fucking killed it they absolutely fucking killed it you can tell they put a lot of effort into it

there were a lot of sleepless nights over there you can definitely tell it's all in the details man and a lot of love went into it and the second issue

the typography is just like it's yeah it's beautiful so the plan is for it to come out quarterly so there's gonna be four a year so the next one

should be coming out in a few months yeah so i'm assuming like all the content in it is going to be like evergreen content right for the for the most part i mean in this case i mean a lot of it was el salvador focused it is called the el salvador issue uh well you know i that that it's not to break it's not for breaking news right right so ever great lower time preference type of content um long more long forum stuff uh but it's all over the place i mean one of the coolest things here is they have um they have like a a full meme factory section oh that's cool which is awesome memetics

uh labra holdo hodl say hodl labral hodl uh put my tweet in here uh can we hold this up to the camera hold it up like a children's book yeah matt whoever is the photographer whoever's choosing the images um there it is it's very yeah it's very like they're doing a really good job we like the coin we stack the sets yeah and a magazine all right while we were talking about bitcoin magazine i uh i loaded an open dime like yeah a good friend's gonna get a good a good wedding present rodolfo when's coin cut you got a sponsor we got the block clock here we got this is the other section i really liked look at this i can't believe i flipped through that hey you have to be cognizant of the people listening at home on spotify so if you're listening on spotify

the magazine has a full meetup section that lists every single bitcoin meetup in america fuck every single city and it has a qr code so you can scan the qr code and you can just easily access all of those meetups and it also previously as i was saying has the has a whole meme factory section just focused on memes i just i just feel like it's just really well done it's it's nice there you go we got time for yeah that's because uh that's because the real organization organization uh what do we have for bit devs there uh we have ties listed under new york city bitcoiners we have will we have will it's such a great job dude whoever i think it was annabelle they said in the chat um yeah it's so good dude yeah whoever did are they gonna do it on barnes and noble at

every location yes every every barnes and noble in america has uh bitcoin magazine which gets to an interesting point bitcoin is part of the culture now somebody's gonna go to the barnes and noble checkout they're gonna see that they're not gonna be like what the hell is bitcoin you're like oh here's bitcoin and it's it's like specifically in the front by the checkout right yeah yeah very good product placement there btc media bitcoin magazine team one last thing matt the articles like it's like high-end like front front line 60 minutes like that type of like uh quality yeah dude so that's what i think they're just like elevating it it's it's crazy good dude hell yeah yeah let's go let's go bitcoin magazine and i'm i'm pretty sure uh copies of the

magazine are being sent up sent out to meetups across the across the world so bitcoin meetups across the world like if you're an organizer of one of those meetups and you're interested in that um bitcoin magazine would love to send you some some copies and while we're here we had them at the national bitcoin meetup yeah just giving they were just being given out and while we're here talking about bitcoin magazine we're going to get our our weekly uh bitcoin 2022 shill in and why i'm happy this week is because now we have a promo code it's tftc i don't know how much you're going to get off right now okay go on that's it like if you want to the promo code is tftc yeah um and like we get a cut of that promo code yes disclaimer okay in typical matt fashion if you

use promo code open source you'll get a bigger discount and we won't get a cut of it so you can decide if you want to fund us or if you want to take our cut hey we're big fan of options here you have the choice you have options and uh yeah and don't tweet don't tweet out the open source code you can tweet out the tftc code tftc may not be live yet we haven't signed anything but it's like um and we had joe rogers in the comments joe is a major part of bringing this magazine together so joe's to joe keep keep your moonshine drenched cherries in uh wherever you come from to the Miami conference. Don't bring them to Miami. I don't want any of them.

No, bring them. And your bucket of fireballs. Yeah. You can bring that. The cherries are deceptive, though. Joe Rogers at some Bitcoin events in the past has showed up with cherries that have been soaked in moonshine

and they get you pretty fucked up. Moving along, we're finally getting to the list here. It's been a good rip so far. We're finally getting to the list. uh swan swana which is the exchange allows you dca into bitcoin very easily uh they added taproot support and an api uh and on top of that we'll focus on the good news first yeah is someone knocking uh taproot taproot support uh is great to see i mean obviously

that's so you can withdraw to taproot addresses um if your wallet supports that and the api is pretty cool i mean we talked about we teased it a little bit last week because hexa wallet um disclosure i'm an advisor um they uh joe wants us to know that he passed out a thousand plus how many a hundred plus a hundred plus a hundred plus cherries with no corona no no confirmed corona transmissions even though you use the same spoon um the hexa wallet is the first one to integrate swan's api but the idea is that you'll be able to stack directly into a bunch of different wallets um and they may or may not be about to announce a bunch of other wallets that you can just immediately stack from from your swan account into self-custody solution so it's

really automating best practices i really like this model dude yeah i mean it's it's it's pushing forward this idea of self-custody first right like get get a wallet before you sign up with an exchange like that like changing that user experience flow i think it could actually like if we start making that a trend like get a bitcoin wallet before you get bitcoin for pre-coiners i think that may actually go well no i mean i think when you onboard someone like when you first onboard someone you should send them their first bitcoin so they don't have to go to a kyc exchange they don't have to go through all that friction they don't have to give up their whole life uh you know to obtain some bitcoin um i mean in another world swan releases their own app right

that does self-custody i think it's kind of cool this idea of of these apis so you kind of it adds to that trust profile right there's all these different trade-off balances you can have and it's kind of nice that the supplier of your kyc sats is different than this than you know the maintainer developers of of your uh self-custody wallet right like they shouldn't be too separate and like we see that with like casa right now on the opposite side like casa offers a dca stacking service but they also provide the wallet right it's kind of nice having it split up um because there needs to be collusion there for them to yeah distribute fucking with you distributed third-party risk there right yeah now should we go to the bad news yeah the bad news uh

seems like uh swan's bank has had to pull out of supporting them in new york due to the bit license yeah i mean fuck the bit license i mean we've said that many times so bad it's so bad it's so bad dude. Do you think Eric Adams is going to do anything about this? The new mayor? Yeah. You want to ask the question again? You think Eric Adams, the new mayor is going to do anything about this? I think he, I don't know. I don't know. He's got to run it up the chain to Albany. Yeah. It's a state. It's a state. Um, I hope he would like make a fuss. I don't think so. It's, it's a state rule. And, uh, I mean, although New York city, we're starting to see just how much it's holding new york back yeah yeah it's it's insane i mean that no no crypto native company

can do anything yeah what and it's like are you seeing it are you seeing an arc you're like oh 100 yeah there's there's i haven't spoken to a single bitcoin entrepreneur that's bullish new york no i mean our arc recently left new york and they're in tampa now we left new york oh yeah i forgot about that you guys are in florida we're in florida now uh i think the realization that people can work from wherever and we're all digital nomads has given us less of a reason to be in new york and i mean the sovereign individual thesis is playing out in real time playing out in real time and even even optimizing for you know tax efficient jurisdictions is a is top of mind for so many people yeah you know what i recently realized uh as part of the escape from

new york if if you know fuck the bit license for for starters uh if you're working for a new york based company uh you're subject to new york income taxes because they're based in new york even if you're a remote employee so you could be a remote employee and you're subject to that and like who wants to put their employees through that we're dealing through that now less competitive against your to other people that other companies are based in other places tftc historically has been a new york-based company i'm in the process of moving at the texas and mainly for that reason like it's a pain in the ass new york wants they're squeezing people of as much tax revenue as they can and they're driving people away it's a beautiful thing to see even traditional finance is dead like

the whole idea of you need to be on wall street to be a successful asset manager has has completely that that that mental model is obsolete because now you can work from anywhere yeah so and it's very interesting shift i mean again sovereign individual called it's happening and i mean you're seeing dcg too like barry's up there cutting ribbons at connecticut because he doesn't want to be in new york well fuck connecticut i know but like it's yeah it's a lesser of two evils new yorkers new yorkers can dunk on like three states right now and it's like california connecticut and just like a question mark there's got to be another one that we could probably but like Connecticut

doesn't have any sports teams they're like New York's little dicks we're talking particularly it's tax no it doesn't matter Connecticut go fuck itself like Connecticut is never like you're never gonna get me New York can go fuck itself but Connecticut more so yeah

New Yorkers say New York can go fuck itself Matt is officially a no Yorker now you heard it here first yeah I mean we're seeing it And by the way, I emailed James Davidson, the author, the co-author of Sovereign Individual. James, if you're listening, I'd love to have you on the podcast. Oh, that'd be awesome. Yeah.

I would say that if I was running a Bitcoin company, just don't serve New York customers. Like you shouldn't have, you just shouldn't even have like a BitLicense strategy, right? I totally agree. it's way too much money like the the the legal cost and the permitting cost to get the license alone it's like why would you ever spend it's hundreds of thousands of dollars especially if you're a startup is it just a matter of spending money or is there are other considerations too to be able to get the bit license i think it's just i mean it's literally like a regulatory paperwork red tape that you have to get through and not everybody's going to get their bit license and

So that's another risk. If you pay all these legal fees and shit, at the end of the day, they may not issue it to you. We're seeing that approach globally as well, like on a global scale. If the US isn't going to be friendly to Bitcoin native companies, they are going to flee. And so you're going to see that at the state level.

There's no incentive for anyone to set up shop in New York. And I think by extension, if you're not going to provide the right incentives to set up shop in the US, we're going to find another place. What was that? Matt's getting shit on right now. Yeah, people are going to move.

I moved. I moved for many reasons, but one of the reasons was like the taxes on the business that was domiciled in New York were egregious. It's like, why the fuck am I paying this?

Like, I have a family to feed. I don't want to fucking fill the coffers of Albany and New York City. That's the thing too. You had like the city taxes, state tax,

federal taxes. It's all fucked, dude. And Philly's no different. That's another reason like I didn't move back to Philly. It was like Philly's got crazy city taxes as well. now we're getting

bring it back up we're getting Uncle Marty angry we're going to bring it back up where are we bringing it back up to we were talking about Swan yeah so Swan is out of New York now and that's fine

I just it's weird that they're not like telling people really yeah I've only heard this in telegram chats give them the benefit of the doubt they're probably trying to figure out they're probably scrambling like

oh fuck how do we support New York but like that's what it comes down to like it should be a it's a communication thing and like honestly like i've told the strike guys this i've told river this i was like don't even fucking waste your time in new york and those reason i mentioned those two companies is because they don't support new york yet and when i talk to them i'm like well you know as someone who's a new york resident i can't use your service and then they always immediately go we're working on it you know like we're trying to make it happen it's like no don't like you're wasting your time

just letting you know that i've never tried your service ben losky i hope you're happy you fucking disgusting revolving door piece of shit like it's fuck that man a lot of money consulting people navigating the bit license so i'm sure he's pretty happy but he's at nidig now is he happy though is he happy though ty he has to live with the fact that he literally ruined a budding economy in like Bitcoin business potential in New York because of his greed. He has to live with that

for the rest of his life. Like that has to eat away. Yes, you can make a shit ton of money. I like that. At the end of the day, when he's on his deathbed, he's going to look back and be like, fuck, maybe I shouldn't have done that. Well, that's the thing. He didn't fuck up Bitcoin. He fucked up New York.

Like New York's suffering right now. Yeah, BitLicense isn't bad for Bitcoin. It's bad for New York. Yeah. he didn't fuck up bitcoin at all um he fucked up new york new york's beyond and to get back to yassine's uh original question like is new mayor adams going to fix bit license i think he's got the lower fruit uh like the the kids vax mandate i think he's gonna come in and be like all right we're not gonna do that like oh no no he's pro vaccine mandate oh is he yeah wait has he come out and that's why i think it's so funny like politicians you know like people are like oh

like oh this is like we finally got a bitcoin mayor in new york it's like you know the year is 2021 the low bar isn't bitcoin the low bar is you know not mandating vaccines across the whole fucking city right i knew that was gonna happen whiskey transfer i just tried to slide the whiskey to marty actually yeah there we go um yeah it's fucked it's all fucked yeah but have you guys heard of new york city coin it's coming to austin so you know how the city coins work right we get a lot of car got car got uh uh how would i describe this car like you got a should we say that a veiled threat is that what it was oh the stacks people are not happy with us that was like a better slide but it's also like really far away yeah um the stacks people

are not happy with tftc right now i mean why i think i we we explained to the freaks exactly how stacks works and then they can go and make their own judgment call yeah what do you think about maneve's thread this week i did not read it what was it bitcoin maximalists are holding back bitcoin ty you have some thoughts here no i mean that's uh look certain people i don't want to name names but i think you know who we're talking about are like trying to push this narrative of like you know bitcoin maximalism and like big you know like a hardcore bitcoiners are now like holding bitcoin back and like toxic to newbies um i'm not sure where it's coming from but it seems like a coordinated effort it's not coordinated it's not coordinated but it's like

easy low-hanging fruit no no the shit coiners the shit coiners have been like bitcoin maximalism was a term created as an epithet it's a negative term it's it's it's always been a negative term and certain Bitcoiners tried to adopt it and embrace it and use it against the people that created the term to basically basically what the term says is you don't like my project because it's not Bitcoin. And that's not the case. I don't like your project because it's unethical and it's poorly, you know, designed like that. I don't think it will work.

Not because it's not Bitcoin. i don't think it'll work because it seems like a literal ponzi like it's dependent on more bitcoin coming into the stacks ecosystem right as as you described it to me i haven't dove into the way it'd be more more like a pyramid scheme what's the difference ponzi has a guy named like albert ponzi that is like handling it yeah there is a difference but it's like my it's more like distributed yeah like anyone can participate in it if they own stacks they receive the proceeds of the bitcoin that are going into the basically this like forever ico yeah so i guess stacks could sustain itself just not give out dividends if nobody's putting bitcoin into the stacks i don't

really want to talk about stacks okay but i do want to have a conversation about bitcoin maximalism and the term bitcoin maximalism i don't like the term because i i i've never personally called myself a bitcoin maximalist yeah my my i've been referred to as one many times so that's what i go with like people would refer to me as a bitcoin maximalist right that's what i say yeah i'm a bitcoiner yeah i think bitcoin is going to change the world for the better i choose to focus on that rather than the millions of distractions that exist us in every aspect of our life including shit coins and i i just it's just interesting this always happens this happens like almost every bull market this is why like we were talking about before we have recorded like

there's so many like bullish signals going on like uh newsletter open rates going up podcast downloads going up uh shit coiners emailing me to come on the podcast like these are uh historically like pre-bull market like leading indicators for the tftc crowd we literally had we literally had the stellar team in front of congress you know dragging bitcoin through the mud saying it was bad for the environment and that proof of work is bad for the environment and that stellar is is the solution there that proof of stake is this i don't even stellar stellar is not even really proof of stake is it it's got like a weird validator model um just like permission validators anyway but but the point is is like that is toxic

what is toxic is taking your pre-mine and like dumping it on retail um are there big corners that are you know that that will just personally attack people yeah sure but i i think if you take a certain big corner and say that and and then just say that all big corners are like that then you're the toxic one yeah like you're part of that issue it's low effort and you've done a good job of calling this out in the past like the low effort like clout chasers quote-unquote bitcoin maximalists on twitter just like doing it to get aroused and get attention versus like just stay true like we have the moral and logical high ground like you don't need i'll say something from an architect uh so i think that this is like a really interesting question especially

as like someone who is so philosophically and ideologically aligned with bitcoin and as like a sort of investor asset manager i think there's no current or future use case for me that is as exciting as an uninflatable uncensorable sovereign money with that being said it's so interesting to see some of the like interest beyond bitcoin that at least we're getting on a daily basis and i think it's it's almost like a an apples to oranges comparison where bitcoin's conservatism is actually like its primary value proposition in like a hyper progressive world that is focused on extremely you know advanced technology it's like bitcoin survives because it's extremely principled and has ethos and is you know not is anti-vc like we

like to internally at arc say like the reason why a16z is shilling pos and saying bitcoin is bad for the energy for the environment is because they can't make massive returns on bitcoin and that's something that's like extremely compelling as a as a holder and as a retail investor uh and and so it's like it's it it's a non-starter that bitcoin is competing in a league of its own i like and i follow a lot of what you're talking about marty it's it's won the energy game and a lot of people don't realize that uh where where i'm having trouble like reconciling even even my own thoughts and my own investment approach is that there is still a ton of mind share that's being captured by things outside of bitcoin yeah we had a discussion about this one or two months ago yeah

we did. We did. We, we, we had this discussion where, where it's like, it's hard to dismiss a lot of the things that are going on outside of Bitcoin. And it's not to say that it's a replacement to the monetary revolution that Bitcoin is capturing. And it's not to say that there is going to be a legitimate competitor to becoming a global based money. Like Bitcoin is positioned, but there is mindshare and it's like innovative in what it's doing. And in a way that like, whereas Bitcoin needs to be conservative to survive. I think when you're seeing with like this whole ETH and Solana and all these like smart contract platforms.

I love that knife fight that's going on right now. It's the exact opposite where they're like, they have to compromise some of their ethos and censorship resistant properties and decentralization because what they're competing on is like better, faster, cheaper. Bitcoin doesn't want to be better, faster, cheaper, and it shouldn't be. And so it's like, there's kind of stuck in a very, very hard, like, I don't know what the saying is, the rock in a hard place or whatever. that's the same okay but but it's like how do you innovate at the pace of like centralized

centralized status quo well i guess yeah this is what i always fall back on like not how do you innovate but at what pace do you need to innovate like i'm a big believer and there's like an order of operations to this right right you need to sound money you need it to be sufficiently distributed you need layers on top of that and that's always been my thesis and my approach to how we get all that mind share to come to bitcoin it's like it's going to come eventually this is my view yeah uh but we just need the order of operations to play out how does it come if you get so much pushback from what's being defined or labeled as the maximalist yeah when he's like he's a he's a bitcoiner like he's i i actually met him before he launched the stacks

token i think like block stacks at block stack actually existed yeah without stacks and they were able to create like a really interesting stack that didn't rely on like a token uh well i'm just curious on your take of how do you reconcile that we're hyper conservative because we need to be and we're going to welcome experimentation and we're effectively going to assume you know all the properties that these other uh platforms are are trying to take lead on yeah well again it goes back to the order operation i think matt does a good job of like so there is a temperance i believe i'll just speak for myself like the temperance with which i approach this these types of arguments is like hey like i i recognize all this is going on

and i i do think i mean it's like it's just they're not competing they're competing on two different axes it's my point well like then you get then you get back to like the economic argument like like why do these things have like it's the utility token argument it's like i agree I agree, but there's, there's, there's so much more going on. I, here, here's my, my general take. If you're, if you're a shit coiner that's coming to me and shilling your shit coin because you don't like Bitcoin, I can't take you seriously. It's like, you kind of first need to understand like what Bitcoin's value proposition is before you explore things beyond. Uh, but I think it's, you can't have the cake and eat it too, where you pride yourself on how conservative

bitcoin is and then assume it's going to create sort of as much interest in the applications beyond just being a base money i i think you're saying take this mic matt i think you do a good job of wait i just want to jump in here real quick okay i believe i'm to me i'm i'm pro free market i like the idea of free market i like i think the idea of bitcoin is super cool that we have we have a mic for matt's bottle it's the most important mic anyway i i think it's important that that bitcoin ended up this this ecosystem that bitcoin created the birth of bitcoin created is this idea of permissionless innovation anyone can fork bitcoin anyone can launch their own network they can do whatever the fuck they want um it's code it's open source code uh that is really

fucking cool and there's inherently skin in the game so you can trade these networks against each other whatever their tokens are against each other and if you win you win if you get wrecked you get wrecked and i think everyone has the right to get wrecked and when they do get wrecked uh they should take personal responsibility and realize that they got themselves wrecked with all that said um in this in the specific situation of stacks yeah we're going to talk about stacks and we were talking about this earlier and i'm gonna say it again because now we're on fucking air and we were talking about it is is they intentionally conflate the idea of mining with this idea of sending bitcoin to these tokens they they intentionally took the bitcoin meme of stacking

and now like stacking sats is using their pre-mined token to stake their branding they took that from you dude they they put they put well i would like to yeah i mean i think stacking sats was a community thing like i i think the reason it's a powerful meme is because the community adopted it's not because i said it stay humble um the they're co-opting the brand yeah that's probably what and they come it's conflated right and and this idea and the the original distribution of stacks was done in a way uh that was very insider not open not permissionless well right i don't want on stacks alone though like yeah no no but i'm saying that's where this is coming from on behalf of like but there's a lot but stacks is the new one right all of these things tend to be

equivalent with eth it's it's it's the same thing that happened with eth eth just happened in the past generation and stacks is happening in this generation that's how i that's how i see it so you know you should disclose trade-offs you should disclose conflict of interest uh you shouldn't try and intentionally hide it with marketing and messaging and that's where the you know that's where the that that that's where the issue to me lies um and i just want i think people should have all the information in front of them if they want to gamble on things if they want to play around with new tools they want to do whatever uh you know like so be it like that that's what a free market is um i think ultimately the overwhelming majority of people if they stay

humble and stack sats rather than trading these tokens will do better long term like if you're a vc or a hedge fund yeah incentives are skewed i mean you get into the preallocation we're vcs now no no but i mean we're bitcoin only we're bitcoin only venture fund in bitcoin companies bitcoin only you also have an incentive to just talk bitcoin but that's true that's true but i think historically historically if you are retail if you're retail and you are just uh accumulating bitcoin long term putting work in and accumulating bitcoin long term you will probably do better than if you try and gamble on if you try and trade you will definitely do better even mentally you'll also feel a lot but my point is the reason i say probably is because there is a theoretical

situation where you you you sell the top you you like actually trade successfully right 99 of people will not trade successfully but there's a scenario where you know you trade the top and it's fucking fantastic for you and there are people that successfully do that like they do exist but the overwhelming majority don't uh so you know that's and and and we only have so much time well we only have so much time in this world so like where does the focus lie and most people don't have enough bitcoin everyone does not even michael saylor doesn't have enough bitcoin he owns no bitcoin i i you know the focus should be trying to accumulate as many stats as possible that is you know high signal to me and that's you know where my i agree so like a perfect example

of this i went to my cousin's wedding uh two months ago and my second cousin who was telling me why i should buy shiva is probably not going to sell the top of shiva he's probably not going to make it no he's probably not going to make it and then he gets burnt out afterwards he's like it's all a scam and then he like fucking walks away exactly definitely there's stuff there's massive opportunity costs and if you if you just stuck to just bitcoin it is a prudent strategy i i still think that's independent from the fact that things are still happening outside of bitcoin that bitcoin might not right but these things are never gonna stop like we're not like shit will never go away and there's going to be new ones next cycle like more innovation or whatever

at what point do we say do we like completely like detether from shit coins like you know for me i'm coming to the belief that bitcoin is you know bitcoin is one is money nobody's coming after that role as you know that hard money role shit coins are products they're like tech products vc tech products who the fuck cares let them do their thing yeah you know what we're not here to police adults you know who want to gamble like they can you know buy uh you know they could buy gamestop they could buy eth who the fuck cares we're not here to police them so why don't we spend our time instead of fighting shit coins you know just uh doing what we do and promote i have 100 agree with that that's and that is what i've dedicated like the last two years because

again like you've seen you caught on to it like the energy thing is like the biggest thing that's going on in bitcoin right now and that's like where a lot of my efforts gone in the last two is like just get bitcoin integrated into the energy sector stack and it's game over i mean but that reminds me like that adds another aspect to it and i kind of touched on it earlier i mean shit court like even if even if you're saying okay so i'm being a little bit toxic by calling them shit coins well you know what so let's say one second alternative chains okay should not be in the same boat as bitcoin it should not be compared to as bitcoin and so we're focused on bitcoin people other people can be focused on whatever the fuck they want if they want to

collect you know hello kitty dolls or whatever it's fine with me if they want to uh work on on trading ownership of baseball cards that's fine with me if they want to trade stocks in a in a more efficient manner that's fine with me but the problem is those altcoin promoters will then come out and say this is bitcoin 2.0 this is better than bitcoin that bitcoin is slow bitcoin isn't efficient bitcoin is is a dinosaur that i stand and you will make more money if you come and give me your bitcoin which i am gonna hold by the way like justin sun has a shit ton of bitcoin four billion of bitcoin on their balance sheet and that and that's what that's what goes wrong with all of the things outside of bitcoin is that they're also comparing themselves to bitcoin when

they're positioning their own projects but how much are they doing that now like i don't hear we're the next bitcoin that much you know 2021 super or what is it ultrasound money what yeah but those are like that's like five like maximalist memeing but i think fundamentally there is a an acknowledgement that they're competing on two different paths well now they're all like we're the next eth yeah right exactly that's why i love this a lot of youth right fight it's so it's so interesting it's a sponsor attack but yeah i mean that that what we see now is mostly it's the next eath but i will say that this stacks concept is an interesting evolution of that strategy where instead of saying we're the next bitcoin we're built on top of

bitcoin and our consensus mechanism is better than proof of work or our you know yeah see and keep the mic dude we're fucking vibing right now this is i mean i love that we're having this conversation it's important because i i we had this conversation a month ago no we did there's there's just a lot of mindshare i i don't take anyone who doesn't understand bitcoin seriously if they're talking another crypto book like and that's the fundamental if you understand the energy play that bitcoin is in if you understand that it is conservative by design if you understand that it's a monetary and not a software revolution, I'll listen to what you have to say. I think the problem is that the majority of people are looking at this as like, Bitcoin is obsolete. Bitcoin is boring. You know,

it is a failure of imagination to think that we're not going to have anything beyond just sound money. And I push back heavily against that. And it goes back to just where I am philosophically. Well, that's tech product mindset, right? Exactly. It's tech product mindset. Exactly. So that's the point I'm trying, like, I want to make right now is like, this is a monetary revolution over a tech revolution it certainly is a tech revolution with the combination of variables that satoshi put together with proof of work difficulty adjustment distributed systems stuff like that but it is at the end of the day that tech revolution enables a bigger monetary revolution and for me coming from an economics background

and really digging into austrian economics like what really irks me about like the shit coin world is like the token stuff again the utility token like everything's going to be priced in bitcoin like why do you need to tokenize everything and have like well with stacks you need the token exactly why do you need no no but stacks you need the token yeah no but like the way stacks works you need the token the token needs to exist my issue with stacks is more the distribution of the original token you can't do stacks with sats is my point why like but again going back to super critical of stacks. I just want to make clear this point. Like there are some situations where, why do you need the token going back to order of operations? They're like, why can't you

have a token on a second, third layer? Again, like I think we're just like, you're literally trying to incentivize hashing into the Bitcoin blockchain and you need another token besides Bitcoin to incentivize that. And that is the stacks token. The problem with that, to me, the biggest problem to that to me is that it was uh private sales uh to closely held investors and then icos happened they like got very excited that they had like the first regulated ico which is like to me hilarious i like i like look back with nostalgia to the unregulated icos like at least those were like permissionless without kyc remember fair proof of work launches like like fair proof of work launches which like in 2013 we're like oh but no what you could do is if you

you could fork stacks you could fork stacks same exact tech free and open source software fork stacks instead of the stacks token being held by privately held individuals having the founder who wants to argue in bad faith on twitter holding eight percent of all stack supply and getting eight percent of all new Bitcoin that are coming into the Stacks ecosystem. You could do that with a snapshot of the Bitcoin UTXO set. If you own however much Bitcoin at that time, you get that much Stacks 2.0 token. And then you can do the same exact thing they're doing. You can do all the expressive smart contracts that they're doing that are Ethereum style. You can do that with a snapshot of the ledger that dictates the global wealth of the world, which is Bitcoin. You could

do that but they wouldn't make the money exactly that's the point you you're much more eloquent than i am but you need the token is my point exactly do you need the token like you need the token but you can use bitcoin as the snapshot for the token yeah to do a fairer distribution of of the token to be going yeah god we're getting down the rabbit hole here this is rabbit hole recap but like i think no i think i mean i mean obviously we've had uh udy going on his ran like oh you're going again was udion oh you said his name yeah udiverse no it wasn't on but like he's an antagonist potentially uh yeah like who like his like attack to it getting it gets into like a semantics argument where it's like really like like you're seeing like you said like i all

i care right like and like you said too matt like i'm just like focused like holy shit this energy revolution is so big it's opportunity cost like you don't have for every minute that you spend thinking about something else you can't spend on bitcoin for every dollar that you spend on on on you know other coins you can't spend on bitcoin and then it comes to like trade-offs like again like what did we see this week aws went down dydex like went down like all these distributors went down went down no no it was fine well i mean that's part of the point though is that you're, if you're unlocking this additional functionality, you're increasing the attack surface area. And that's not something that Bitcoin wants to do necessarily. Like, I

think, I, I, I mean, I've, I've spent more and more time on just cause it's a function of what I have to do with my job and the interest from investors. But the idea of being able to like take a loan without relying on jp morgan yeah i think it's a very compelling use case i was talking about this with somebody this week too but like doesn't multisig make that easier as well can that drive the cost of capital down if you if you like today told me there's an application on bitcoin where i can send bitcoin to an address and then gain synthetic usd exposure hodl hodl is that no unchained capital oh no unchained capital is like centralized though no but it's not but it's still there's there's multi-sig elements there so you have one both

by the way both of them have been or are currently they both are currently sponsors but hodl hodl is a better example well because hodl hodl doesn't have you you hold a key your counterparty holds a key and then all the estro like no but i would say i would say but you need you you need to have like you need to have someone else taking the other side of the load right does yes all these loans all these loans are over collateralized whether it's a bitcoin loan through a centralized product or if it is a uh dydex loan through a protocol they're all over collateralized i would make the argument that the only reason there's a real market for over collateralized loans is because of our ridiculously burdensome tax system and where where you don't have to pay

capital gains taxes if you take that loan but like why would i ever in a functioning society why would i ever put up a hundred dollars collateral to loan twenty dollars like that makes no sense i have a hundred dollars like why am i loaning twenty dollars that makes no fucking sense matt this is a fucking great point dude i mean i think that it is acknowledged that primary use case is tax arbitrage is to not necessarily need to pay capital gains tax when you trade in your asset for for us but in a post bitcoin world we probably move to like the bitcoin city model where you have you know a flat sales tax type of situation a vat tax consumption tax consumption tax like i think that's much fairer if you compare and i think we do ultimately i

I mean, I think in most places, this is why it's important. We have Ty here. Marty, explain the consumption. Well, consumption, I think instead of getting taxed on your income and your work or how much property you own, it's like, all right, if you're going to consume, if you live within the framework and you accept the framework that like, if you consume from the earth, you should probably give back. Like consumption tax is much fairer than income or I guess a sales tax may be lumped in with

a consumption tax, but like. Well, no, sales tax is a consumption tax. Yeah. sales tax is the consumption tax you go and buy an iphone and you pay 10 on that and you pay that to to build the roads yeah and like so many people are going to be pissed off about that no but like i i i can see that like again meeting in happy mediums like to me personally that's a happy medium like if you're going to choose between like what's nice about the sales tax about the consumption taxes capital gains tax like i don't think should exist like if you're

willing to take the risk and put your capital on the line you should be paying 40 tax because you What about unrealized capital gains? The problem to me with these other taxes is they require, for enforcement, they require an insane amount of surveillance. You have to surveil all of these different transactions in order to make sure people are complying with them, which makes them very expensive to enforce, but also means that you're exposing all your citizens to all this increased risk of data and privacy issues. Um, with sales tax, like you just, you need, you need merchants to comply, uh, which is, is a significantly smaller portion of the population than everybody. Uh, does it still like kind of suck for the merchants? Yes. You know, like they're getting surveilled, uh, they're getting projection revenues placed upon them to see like, are they paying the right amount of taxes

for how much business they're doing? Yes. But it's extreme. It's way cheaper. It requires way less invasive surveillance and then the overhead just on on human beings like just like this idea like like the accounting the accounting industry alone like turbo tax like all that shit like literally by the time we die we're going to spend like 30 of our waking hours like thinking about you know how like what is our tax burden and how do i make sure that i comply with the law with that yeah like it makes it very fucking difficult it's so fucked and then and again like to point to concrete examples like earlier this year before we moved to austin my wife and i were like hey we've never seen the leaves change up north let's drive to new hampshire and like go check this out

like before we officially make our move it is crazy the transition from massachusetts which is a very heavy blue state with a lot of taxes and like a very extractive economy from the government standpoint the transition from massachusetts to new hampshire it was jarring how much better the roads in new hampshire were compared to massachusetts the roads are great up here yeah yeah and that's like always the biggest meme like who's going to pave the roads like well this state that has less taxes has better roads than massachusetts right but you'll notice that massachusetts has like the rest the fancy ass rest stops and like they're building out like all the like you know the visitor centers like that yeah jersey sucks but the jersey rest

stops are fucking fire yeah they'll pump your gas for you you don't have to do it i hate that by the way i only like pumping my own gas i like pumping my own gas too but i don't mind when it's like all right i can show the marty flights like a fake premium no i've spent it fill her up i think i think i've spent a majority of my life in jersey uh even though i grew up in philly it would spend at least three months a year in jersey and then when i go back i actually go back to jersey go to the shore like that's where i prefer to be but like yeah that's i had a roommate who was from north jersey in in college and like he literally didn't know how to pump gas when he got so many people it's so fucking hilarious yeah i mean they have yeah also you know what a big

free state measure for me is and like people don't realize this from free states is in a free state you can uh when you pump your gas you don't have to jam your gas cap in to hold the thing in it just you just press the the little there's a little pedal lever that just holds it like new york new jersey connecticut they don't allow you to do that yeah that is actually a very good observation i always jam my gas cap in to i don't know if that's illegal or not i don't do that but you would have to you would have to if you were if you were filling up your gas and you didn't want to just hold the fucking handle but in free states you can just push the the steel put it down yeah you just post the thing yeah so marty you have to go on you have to go to the

airport in 25 minutes 25 minutes i want to talk about this swiss tech executive um let's pull that up car this this there's a swiss firm that does all the text messaging and phone registration for twitter google alibaba tick tock um there's more keep going down there's more fucking everybody instagram uh whatsapp uh facebook telegram tencent and he also on the side has a surveillance firm that was uncovered and like he literally has all of this cell phone information that he uses and then sells it to governments and corporations and like very very few people are talking about this doesn't matter yes oh another thing you don't have to listen we should probably talk about like tim cook like

actively working with the chinese communist party i didn't know about this oh you didn't that was like a big news thing this week like he there's documents that have come out i don't know if they were leaked or they had to be released like with the capacity like he's like entered in a contract with the chinese communist yeah we know i mean we know we've talked about previously on rhr that he they have control of icloud in china they have full control of icloud in china so they don't have to give a warrant or anything look up apple china wait no i mean this this we cannot we cannot gloss over this though no this is literally like every major every major e-commerce social media platform is using middle age ag out of switzerland to handle all their text messaging

stuff all your two-factor all your text message notifications your your your phone number is already almost always assigned to your your real name and your home address and your office address and everything that's associated with you they have all of that stuff and then he he has all that information and he's selling it as a surveillance company and all these big companies haven't fucking talked about it well agreed oh camera down camera down camera down michael from oceap is crushing the uh the camera reallocation just point out yeah that's not fun there's car it's nice that marty is having uh connection issues right now yeah i mean frozen no but the point i was trying to make was the apple story which car will pull up

uh it's like yes that's happening it's terrible but it doesn't even does it even matter like if apple is just i mean yes you have apple android other it does matter marty i mean it does like from a principal standpoint but like again like is that noise above the signal which is like apple sending this to everybody anyway like it doesn't even matter if the swiss company is collecting it Like it does Apple's below that Swiss company and they're doing it anyway. No, I mean, in a lot of ways, in a lot of ways, the telecom companies, the, the phone companies, uh, the phone providers, the mobile providers have more information on you than Apple does.

I mean, I could go into an Apple store and I can go buy a Mac book with cash that chick when I have in my pocket, I admitted to earlier, I can go and buy that, right? They don't know my home address. They don't know my office address. they don't know every location i've been to like there's there's yes in some situations like if you get an iphone through at&t or something or verizon sprint and you know situations that's most situations bro it's some like but my my point is is yeah my my point is is that i i would not say that apple doing this uh is like okay here's my example you're right where's the signal no my

point is my point is i i talk about on this show apple is spying on you google is spying on you this has been a very constant narrative on this show okay consider using calyx or graphene okay okay now you go out and you buy a sim card and you buy it kyc free wait you're seeking privacy You're trying to seek privacy. Middle AG is using all of these networks. If you use any of these networks, Telegram, Twitter, TikTok, any of these networks, they're fucking tracking you based on your cell phone number, regardless of the operating system you're using. So it's a it's a to me, that's a level above that. Right. Like, should Apple be doing fucking surveillance shit?

Should they be, you know, working with authoritarian regimes? Obviously not. Should Google be doing that? obviously not but like even if you seek out privacy if you have a phone number and you use one of these services this swiss company is also tracking you yeah and is selling that data is also yeah is also so like that's the point i'm trying to make like is this just like a distraction we're like hey focus on the swiss company taking all this information from instagram and all these apps and point your ire at them and meanwhile everybody's like ah like i'm still

using the iphone i'm still using like an android that's not calyx os compatible it's hard pull up that it's not graphing compatible not to downplay this but like what kind of information are they getting from like these text messages i mean obviously like 2fa and stuff like that but what else are they deriving from you know collecting this information i mean the information i mean if they can get in clear text i don't know if like there's just no metadata that people are communicating with each other but i mean they're literally middle ag does like the authentication stuff so like they know your username and then they know your phone number but it's probably the two main things and then they can cross reference to that with other databases yeah

that might have your location might have your name address stuff like that it's like another thing on top of everything else but like think about it like if you have an apple device if i had this iphone like apple's gonna get that information anyway it doesn't matter if i'm using instagram tiktok like they have the ability to pull that data so what's this apple news what what's going on with the apple news tim cook like made like a personal um deal in 2016 yeah like he's promising that apple would help develop china's economy and technological capabilities that's vague he's like what is this deal though it's behind a paywall an extensive paywalled report that's a scam uh an extensive paywalled report based on interviews

and purported internal apple documents the information revealed that tim cook personally forged a five-year agreement with the chinese government during a series of in-person visits to the country in 2016 the need to push for a closer alliance with the chinese government purportedly came from a number number of actual apple executives i'm drunk right now who are concerned about bad publicity in china and the company's poor relationship with chinese officials and it's a story here purported behind a paywall the intercepts or not the intercept the information is reporting that tim cook did a personal deal or a deal via apple with the chinese communist party to say hey we'll try to build products that that live and operate within your specs

yeah they say if you want apple in china you have to do this as a that yeah i mean i mean that's fucked up yeah and like again that's the point i'm trying to get to like this is layer below the swiss company you're describing like does it even matter like is that just trying to like as a non-apple user the swiss company nudes means more to me don't you don't call yourself a non-apple user what am i using that's apple i mean it's been public you have apple devices i don't use any apple devices right now right now yeah i had a macbook air for tftc that i've since switched to linux on that device uh and i've gone linux completely and you name and shame linux you blame linux for my connection issues like for all my things i got

my i got my phone right here which is a fucking pixel 5 running calyx which is being tracked by middle agey because i connected to telegram and twitter yeah i don't use any apple products right now you're good right now i've the only two apple products i've ever had is i had a single iphone and i had a single macbook air and in matt's defense a single iphone was forced upon him he didn't buy it willingly yeah yeah and it lasted like three months but like and i still use it for like banking apps because like i don't want to put them on this phone yeah on wi-fi yeah but like But like, so, so with, with the big news that we had on Apple, uh, with China is that actually what China does, uh, what Apple agreed with China is instead of Apple holding the servers

for iCloud, um, they have a Chinese government subsidiary owns the servers. Lovely. So the subsidiary never actually, actually reach out to Apple for information requests. So Apple, yeah, it just goes to their servers. We've talked about it on Rabbit Hole Recap before. like six months ago eight months ago or something like that wow that's such a fucking sneaky slimy loophole yeah and then we're not collecting your data and then they report like global information requests like oh the u.s government asked for this much information with warrants

this government but they don't have to do it with china because they don't have to ask them they just have the servers they just have it that's so fucked yeah fuck all right martin jones is about to come out martin freaks we're at a pivotal point in human history like we need to fight back against this like it's imperative like that's the point i'm trying to have marty jones.com not anymore if we were trying to get it some freaks matt's gonna go buy url right now but like i said last week that i don't buy urls anymore so are these tech companies and like these uh vc firms are this hyperbole in saying that they're basically the 21st century equivalent of ibm working with the nazis yeah yeah i might own it though i might have bought a trunk the

other day i think uh i think ty i think that's a very accurate and fair assessment of like what these things are like and again it's like the banal banality of evil argument like they may think like oh we're just like extracting revenue for our company like this is the way to do it like the best way to do it is to be able to get access to metadata and use that metadata to put advertisements in front of people and then on the back end we're selling the metadata to the governments that are using that to pinpoint people to like pull them out their home i don't know man i don't i don't know if the banality of evil thing you think you think it's overtly evil yeah yeah you think it's overtly nefarious that's like again we have this discussion all the time on rhr

and tftc and in person like and i keep going back and forth is it incompetence is it naivety or is it nefariousness like i don't know i think different for different people different actors um you know it's a combination of all those yeah it's so fucked but like that is the thing like and it's an incentives problem right like they're incentivized to collect this data so they can sell it to advertisers and then once you get to that point it's like oh what else can i do with this data you know what the chinese government's going to pay me 500 million dollars over five years if i give this to them like we need to be reporting earnings reports at apple and so we like we need this revenue to pump our share price like again incentivize like what we talked about in the

beginning episode trying to rework the way content and media distribution is monetized like can that change the incentive structure we're not instead of models of surveillance model yeah exactly like if we change that incentive structure like what is that and adam curry would go even further into the ad models of censorship model as well it is yeah and i think we've done the i don't like i don't know anybody else's does the ads the way we do and disclaimers the way we do i think we've tried to be as pure as possible as being i almost what other bitcoin podcast has ever said the word disclosure i don't know but i don't want to focus on that i want to focus on the incentives of ads verse that was the honest question i don't know i don't know that's the honest answer definitely

you know never heard peter mccormick said they would have disclosure i don't like i'm curious how many times he said it in the hours of his podcast yeah um but can we change the incentive structure with like so fuck now we're drunk and we're probably gonna leak alpha but like talking business on air like it's impossible to leak alpha in a post-bitcoin world lessons i learned from barstool lessons i learned from barstool barstool huge media production company like fucking dave portnoy is one of the geniuses of our generation he's not the most eloquent is certainly like uh abrasive in certain aspects i fucking love dave portnoy but he proved that you can do media in a different way you can own it and you can like have a voice and be like

steadfast behind that voice and people will rally behind you they've monetized via advertising learned a lot while working at barstool for a very short period of time david say was there for a cup of coffee and what i always wondered now that like lightning network is where it is like what if we could change that like what if dave and barstool didn't have to cater to advertisers what if they could fucking just like depend on the stoolie energy that exists like stoolies come out and they monetize Barstool. It was proven Black Friday. That's how they make a lot of money is their merch sales

because stoolies want to put economic value behind Barstool because they like the content they're putting out and they like the voices they're putting out. What if you were able to cut out advertisers and do... I can't talk about... So what if, via the Lightning Network, what we do with podcasting 2.0 right now, car gets a cut, you get a cut, I get a cut, DJ gets a cut,

written content everything like what if you create a platform where it's like hey if you want to create good content about bitcoin liberty and beauty in the digital age come to tftc we will give you that platform give us your lightning network pub key we're going to put it into this rss feed you're going to get a lion's share of the revenue produced by the content that you produce the company is going to get a little bit of it because we're providing you the platform like how does that change how things get modified it changes everything yeah like yeah but that that solves the incentive problem for media right but what about like apple like apple doesn't operate on an ad model so how do you solve for that like they're just giving away you know

information and working with the ccp and they don't have an ad model what is the information valuable for advertisers like that is why like well so it starts with like that's the point i was trying to make like they start with like hey we get all this metadata we know who's going to what website we know where they are we know where they're shopping and so like here's that data the physical shop like you can feed them advertisements as they're passing like here's 20 off to come into made well right but for the cc reason for like apple is is apple is not an ad model company they are a subscription model company and right now if you accept subscriptions if you accept subscriptions you have to take personally identifiable information

through credit cards and whatnot. And Bitcoin fixes that. So if you integrate Sats instead, then they don't have to have all of that information on their customers in order to accept the subscription payments in the first place. You can subscribe to iCloud and just be streaming them Sats

instead of having three different third parties that are all surveillance companies. Again, going back to order of operations, how did they get to this part where they're like, all right, we're going to sell our souls to the CCP. It's like, all right, we're going to start. We need to collect this data to sell these ads. I mean they'll still even in that model

they'll still probably sell their souls to the CCP because there's you know a billion people there that they want to sell phones to which is a god damn shame like app developers have to appease Apple like Michael can talk about that yeah Michael hop on Michael from the Oshie app like how do you have to appease the Apple

uh we don't you don't like so our customers are paying with Bitcoin we have no like information on uh, on our customers whatsoever. They're paying over lightning. So we have no identifiable information other than an email address, which could just be like a throwaway dummy email. So yeah, other than that, we haven't gotten, uh, that much further.

No, but like it's cash. It's, it's, it's peer to peer digital cash. We've gotten away from the whole handing your you know local business a 20 bill like now you have to hand them all of your personally identifiable information with the swipe of a card and we all fell for like the cash back stuff and we don't do a transaction without that so bitcoin is a return to a cash-based economy in the digital sphere digital cash baby that's right cash it's quite simple right yeah but like still like there is a point where like apple or not even apple the u.s government go to apple like hey we don't like that oh she's enabling this peer-to-peer distributive cash system like cut them off like oscar from balkan he was telling me about yeah but if you're running

if you're running an android phone you can just sideload the yeah the apk yeah you don't even need F-Droid you just go to their website and you just press the download button and then you press the install and then you're good to go just a web app or it can just be a web browser that was Embassy's work around

what's the website? OSHI OSHI there's only single letters in all of those there's no two I's or two use or anything no no no brains double interesting it's an interesting strategy moon to use is the worst branding mune mune um i've got five minutes here i had someone

pronounce it mune yesterday you used the mune wait you already i've got five minutes i i gotta get the airport my wife will murder me if i don't get home okay how can we solve that incentive uh no we can't interesting okay so what do you want to cover the last five minutes boom you were about to go into a thought i wanted to see that thought through uh if you were going to onboard someone which app would you onboard them on they don't own bitcoin they're bitcoin curious uh blue wallet i fucking it's too easy moon wallet man boon blue wallet moon wallet i'm drunk blue wallet's too easy dude and it's too easy okay if you think blue wallets easy moon with two years is easier okay i just got into this argument less

uh bukele does not uh we got a question did matt get an answer for bukele about el salvador custody they hold it with i am 99 certain i know exactly which custodian they're holding it with and it's an american regulated custodian they're not holding their own keys is it coinbase it is not going to be all right full disclosure and i've said this to many people over the last years couple months more particularly like i'm a lazy user once i find something that i like i like where i like blue wallet it's easy for me it's easier for people like i go when you when you load a blue wallet oh no they don't make you take your seed words which is good yeah you can export it so i'm like hey you can use it without backing up i i think it's important that you can

use the mobile wallet with that bank i would say blue wallet is good uh we gotta go we gotta go we gotta go yeah okay no no keep going and finish your like blue wallet's a decent option for the onboarding yes uh if they want to accept lightning though it's custodial yes but like again like ease people in but with moon it's there's a different trade-off balance uh and it's going to cost you more money to use lightning but the funds are held on chain so like yeah what's non-custodially what is an acceptable trade-off balance there particularly like what is the question i would like the cool thing about moon is when you scan moon and blue wallet trade-off difference with lightning is so minuscule that like what okay but but the point of my story was the person i was

next to we were battling to onboard and he tried to onboard them with copay wallet and i was just like what the fuck is going on right now i was like why is anybody using copay yeah well the person i own like my barber who i got on blue wallet he was like i'm using trust wallet i was like i don't even know what that is oh so trust wall is like a major shit coin wallet and they don't even rotate the address they don't give you a new address and is it custodial i couldn't tell no it's not but the name kind of implies that it is but it's not yeah no trust wallet might be owned by finance now all right i've got two minutes we gotta go i've got two things i want to do is shout out first what's up freaks oh we have shout outs i'm up it's only one this week uh i'm a pleb

moving into the self-mining and have listened to all the citadel dispatch mining episodes i have the capital and a decent amount of knowledge and experiment with miners to pursue this i also have plenty of time to learn a lot along the way i want to make sure oh man i'm sorry for my drunk reading face i drank a lot of whiskey today i want to make sure i'm aware of all my options i was looking at hash huts uh and the shipping from canada to america is roughly four grand the product looks like it is a great quality but i wanted to see if you had any advice on other bitcoin mining container companies preferably in america my concern is running into clear net websites that are scams for miners and mining containers and i don't want my funds stolen

additionally for bulk minor purchases to fill my container is kaboom ramps uh kaboom racks a good way to go do you have any additional websites or resources that can help with my journey i already have an electrician lined up thanks for all you two have done for the freaks cheers nick from kaboom racks was there last night he was uh so about his pizza so we'll start out i uh endorse kaboom racks nick's a good dude kaboom racks has been around for quite a while if you're looking at web of trust proof of work kaboom racks has been around for quite a while they've been providing people with asics secondary market uh asics for quite a while people are very happy with them hash shots uh i bought a hash out before it is expensive it's the only game in town

really right yeah so that's like the thing with like the container is like you need to either make it yourself or you buy it from steve barber exactly so the nuance you want to understand with hash shots so like a hash you're gonna put 14 miners in there very heat dense especially if you're using top-of-the-line hardware it's gonna be delayed like you're gonna i'm not delayed but it's gonna be a long it's gonna be a long process of getting your hash on like he is well steve barber is like fucking killing it he's got tons of of of demand for it and it's gonna take you a while to receive that hash hut yes but that's not the point i'm trying to make okay i agree with that there's gonna be a lead time i think that's like the most important aspect well no it is an

important aspect i think the most important aspect if you're going to get a container having uh been around the canadianized mining model for the last three years especially as these asics get more performance and more heat dense like you need to have airflow control in your container down pat does the hash had have built-in airflow control yes and like so that's one thing you need to take into consideration and having been in the business great american mining does not sell their their containers they are top of the line they make them all themselves yes and they're proprietary that's why like you can only get them from barber basically yeah if you're a consumer and honestly like knowing the landscape i would only buy them

from upstream like i want to buy them from anywhere else unless you wanted to buy like a chicken shack like type of and like make it yourself do it yourself but then you have to worry about air flow and stuff yes

these things are very like I mean we talked about it last night at the Nashville Bitcoin meetup like these things are very heat dense there's a lot of variables you have to take into consideration

heat, noise, power I'm not going to talk negatively about anything but I will talk very positively about upstream yeah upstream's the real deal

but it will take a while for you to get your hash out so just keep that in mind and price that accordingly yeah and i would say freak if if you haven't it's not quite i'm not quite sure if you've dipped your toe in yet or not like why don't you just start small like don't do a 14 asic operation with a hash hut and do one or two miners dip your toe in and then scale up yes and i think you'll find via that avenue you'll be able to figure out how to do the airflow stuff

yourself right because there's a lot like okay hash out i trust upstream i trust with all that there's a lot i don't trust i'm not going to name names but like there's like you said you don't want to go to a clear site website buy a hut get it and then it doesn't work i've seen some shit in the field the very like popular and well-known names that are building mining containers that don't work again electrical infrastructure is very specific to the miner very specific to the type of energy you're producing uh and you don't like if you fuck that up if you like like i said last night like with these top of the line miners right now like m30s m31 s19js like if you overrun them and they have a potential life cycle of seven years and you burn it out after three years

because you don't know how to set up your infrastructure like that is an opportunity costs of future revenue that you could have had and what steve is doing it upstream how they're designing their containers uh really uh fine-tunes for that like mentality in mind 100 can i can i jump in and disagree buy a bunch of miners and just figure it out well tie like the opportunity costs like don't listen to me like like so that's what ty did that's what i did all that's the nuance to ty's comment like if you want to buy a bunch of miners and figure it out buy a bunch of s9s which are a shit ton cheaper and then like m30s or s19s just count on half the batch being like doa yeah but dead on arrival right but it's a cheap it's a cheap mistake to make in terms like

you buy 14 s9 and you're paying what like maybe five grand like if that like if you're if you're buying 14 m30s you're paying 150 grand like it's a much cheaper mistake like i would i would i would caution an error on the side of making cheaper mistakes the more expensive i know yeah i just want it to be the contrarian. So Marty, you have to get to the airport, right? Yes. Before we just end, can we just do a final thoughts? Because we have so many people here. Can I just give Yassin the mic for final thoughts? Yes, sir. Yassin, thank you for joining us. Do you have final thoughts? I do have final thoughts, but this will be about Rabbit Hole Recap specifically. Marty, I think I was on your podcast almost three years ago. And that was when I was six

months in the job and you so humbly invited me. You had under 10K followers, by the way, on twitter i remember when you had hit 10k it was like a very big deal uh and i just want to thank you guys for everything that you're doing and i'm not just saying that you're an extremely positive force for bitcoiners i've learned a ton from you uh keep crushing it it's an honor to be here and uh thanks for everything that you do well yes seen the feeling is mutual i fucking love that you are a friend of mine and i've learned an extreme amount from you personally we love brother we appreciate you and you do uh massive work in the space that that most people do not realize uh ty final thoughts uh final thoughts uh super bullish on nashville um i think austin

can learn a thing or two from nashville i'm still moving to austin so you know don't get it you know don't get that mixed up but you know i think easiest thing to do allegedly is bars close at two in austin what is up with that close at four or later the nashville bars don't close they don't close uh the bar i went to last night closed so at what time 2 a.m no no definitely didn't i was there fake news the lights went on i can show you tanguma told me it was 3 a.m might have been 3 a.m well i mean you're just gonna say lies uh michael final thoughts yeah first of all it's an honor to be here i like grew up on tftc and rabbit hole recap so awesome to be here um other than that

in terms of what ty said we'll we'll have to see um tomorrow i'm gonna be walking around nashville and uh trying to figure out how receptive businesses here are to accepting bitcoin and i'll be directly comparing that to how receptive austin business owners are and we'll go from there. Yeah, Three Forks, very nice, very nice steakhouse. They got a charity dinner on the OCE app. They're accepting Bitcoin. Sounds like you're a free agent right now.

It's not a competition. Michael, we appreciate you. But really what I want to say though, is like everybody out there across the country listening to this, like, hey, walk in your local business. Across the world. Look them in the eye.

yeah shake their hand ask them if they would be willing to accept bitcoin and go from there like get out there it works it works just start the conversation you'd be surprised get out there get off your ass proof of work in your city fuck you gotta do it fuck yeah car final thought thank you oshi thank you michael we love oshi oshi's fantastic it's my pleasure uh you got a long drive out of you sir no dude the hospitality here geez matt rod mills everybody dude geez gosh marty if we move to nashville seriously car car car i'm staying in austin all right let's move my family cross country i'm just saying another if we move i'm in bro fuck why did i hire this producer

best decision we made at tftc in a while no car is a real one it's a pleasure you guys i love matt we love you too brother everything yeah it's just amazing yeah it's uh it's beautiful yeah we're uh i'm not making another cross-country move my family but i am very happy with what is going on here in nashville i'm very proud of what like i don't know proud was the wrong word like very happy what's going on here i'm proud of what we're doing i'm proud of what we're doing i'm excited we're gonna tftc in 2022 is gonna we're gonna take it to the next fucking level and uh i'm very excited that car's along for the ride and i think car is going to help uh you know super charge us um and it's super i'm super excited that i finally got to meet him in person for the first

time um my final thought i love you all i love you all too my final thought was actually something i wanted to bring up on the list but like uh russia and india are starting to do international she's gonna add i'm just gonna throw this in the last final international trade deals outside the purview of the us dollars a unit of account this is a trend that has been going on for years uh i think we're gonna see it accelerate in 2022 but final thought with all the love here like uh i love all y'all it's like look what we did here like right here this is fucking awesome we need to do this more often i like the party rip yeah that's why you should just do the party austin dude i am i'm congratulations freaks i'm i'm happy to announce i'm moving to austin let's go

Alright, I literally have to get to the airport Stay humble, Stack Sads, motherfuckers Love all y'all Thank you