TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - Rabbit Hole Recap #194: Live from the open source stage

Episode Date: April 12, 2022

This week Marty and Matt are in Miami for the Bitcoin 2022 Conference. They are joined live on the Open Source stage with Craig Raw, Wiz and Steve Barbour. Follow Craig on Twitter Follow Wiz on Twitter Follow Steve on Twitter Shoutout to our sponsors: Unchained Capital Braiins HodlHodl

freaks it's late I don't know is it Thursday Friday, Saturday, Sunday Monday, today's Tuesday yeah I'm sorry it's almost six days late we recorded this last week live in Miami on the open source stage

Matt and I did we were joined by Wiz Craig Raw, Steve Barber came up, we got heckled by a bunch of Ben's the Ben's are becoming a big problem a big problem freaks

the bends are becoming a big problem that's all I'm going to say they need to be taken care of I was blinded by the stage lights during this recording so I couldn't see how many of them were back there but there were a lot of them holding up signs, heckling disrupting

the bends are a problem big problem enjoy this friend yes sir it was brought to you by our good friends at unchained capital unchained capital is here to help you eliminate single points of failure in your bitcoin security model and to give you financial services so that you can use your bitcoin to do cool things like use it as collateral to get dollar liquidity if you need it you don't have to sell your bitcoin but bitcoin up as collateral good for taxes too that way they have an ira product and of course

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last couple weeks in Houston we had Edward Evenson there BTC Gandalf was there last week in Miami Edward Everson excuse me, Evenson he doesn't like when I mess up his name intentionally he was there following me around Miami as well

he wasn't whipping firmware devs to get the what's miners out I saw Daniel the boy Dan Frumps saw Jan as well the brain share behind brains

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When you talk about a Fed just gone nuts, all the central banks going nuts. So it's all acting like safe haven. I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins. In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor. I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin. If you're not paying attention, you probably should be. The keynote. It makes it easier in a way. You can't see anyone, you don't know what they're doing.

Oh, our mics are on. I guess we're going. What is up, freaks? What is up, Miami? Miami. uh i want to start because i'm a proud co-host let's give it up for matt odell for organizing this room here thank you brother truly special yeah incredible job dude this is the largest in-person rabbit hole recap we've ever done yeah congrats you're all part of history somebody note the block and uh we'll write that down somewhere uh we're joined by craig raw and whiz uh steve

barber's supposed to be up here uh but he's not here so if he wanders in send him to get a mic but this is our hr we have 40 minutes when we do these live shows uh we usually do a different format where we have a few topics that we want to talk about matt and i haven't even talked about topics and then we'll open it up to q a wait raise your hand if you have no idea what rabbit hole recap is awesome oh welcome okay so rabbit hole recap is our weekly news show weekly bitcoin news show we've been doing it for over three years now four years september i believe yeah so if you like bitcoin you should check that if you like this you know go check it out maybe consider it but yeah as marty said we're just kind of gonna we're gonna shoot the shit and

then we're gonna do a q a yeah uh let's give another shout out to whiz for doing a pirate live stream in this room today yeah thanks uh thanks to jack for retweeting my uh pirate live stream at open source stage i think there's an idea i had about two in the morning last night i'm like why is there no live stream let's just go to target and best buy buy camera and plug it in and set it up and so we did it yeah you you could spin up your own isp i think you can figure out a live stream in 12 hours it's very impressive where's those two isps now well technically mempool.space is uh its own isp now yeah okay so we kind of spun that off into its own uh sub isp in a way why don't we talk about that you you recently added a mining page to mempool.space

yeah we went down to nashville uh last week with matt and rod um organizing the nashville meetup down there and we had a really nice crowd about what hundred people maybe more yeah there was a tornado warning we didn't so 100 was a good showing yeah it was pouring outside yeah and um but it was a great show i mean it was just me rod matt on stage we were just trolling each other we actually forgot there was like an audience there and he's having so much fun i don't know how many hours we were talking but it was a great show but yeah he announced the so whiz is the lead maintainer one one of the co-founders of mempool.space and one of the co-maintainers of the open source mempool project um where you can and he has she rented a tv and put it up over

there with a live look at his mempool yeah we don't have a booth in the conference this year so uh we just rented a tv and stuck it in the corner over there and we have we have craig raw here who is um the lead maintainer and the man behind sparrow wallet which is one of the best desktop wallets on the market fully open source this is his first public appearance ever in the bitcoin scene thank you sir it is an absolute fucking honor that you're up here with us thank you well thank you and then craig and i were talking backstage you're comfortable talking about what we were discussing sure go ahead so there's what is a path descriptors and wallets and simplifying that yeah so well we were just

having a quick chat um currently bitcoin core requires if you want to input your output descriptor into a bitcoin core wallet you've got to get a received chain output descriptor and a change chain output descriptor they're different um andrew chow has actually put forward a multi-part version of that which allows you to have one descriptor and that's useful because if you're going to stamp it into a steel plate for example you've got 99 of them the actual data is the same for the receive change chain. So you might as well just have one descriptor which specifies both chains.

So that's a PR that's in Bitcoin Core right now. Sparrow implements it that way. And I'm kind of hoping that Sparrow leads the way on that to try and maybe get things to move in that direction. But it is as yet an unmerged PR. So hopefully it goes that way. So what does that mean to the end user? It means easier backups, essentially?

Yeah. So, I mean, if you have a multi-sig, you need to back up all of the public keys, right? You can't just have the seeds. And output descriptor is really the most standard way to do that. So, you know, just having one which is easier to put into steel plate, for example, which is, I think, an important thing. Awesome. Yeah, that's true. Even if you have all your seed plate backups, if you don't have those public keys, I guess you couldn't recover the funds, right? Correct.

So, I mean, you know, people often think multisig, if I lose one of my seeds, I'm okay. But actually, you do need the other public keys to reconstruct that script. So, for that, you know, the output of the script is kind of our standard way to do it. Awesome. We'll give this PR a thumbs up. I hope so. Let's get some review, too. What do you want to talk about?

Is there any, you want to talk about tokens on Lightning? Yeah, yeah. Matt was making fun of me earlier saying I'm an attention whore. No, I called you a cheerleader. This is what I called you. Why am I a cheerleader? I don't know. You just made it seem extremely bullish, and I just don't.

I think it's very bullish. I think it's cool. So what we're talking about is para. There's a lot of layer two ways to do tokens on top of Bitcoin, right? Like even back in the day, you had like, what was it called? Omni Protocol. Yeah, Omni Protocol. You had something party.

Counterparty. Counterparty. There's colored Bitcoin, then there's like liquid, now there's lightning. You can issue shit coins on top of Bitcoin in lots of different ways now, right? Yeah. I mean, you can also just issue shit coins on top of shit coins and let that be. If people want to use Tether, why does it matter if they use Tron? Does anyone really care?

At the end of the day, you're still trusting the Tether corporation in the back end. It doesn't really matter what chain it's running on. So why do we care if it's just running on a centralized shit chain? Personally, I think it'd be cool if it was on Bitcoin rather than a shit coin. that's why I got excited about it you can create these tokens within a taproot transaction and then push it up to the second layer and transact

via lightning but you brought up something earlier when we were discussing this when it became apparent that Matt was going to shit on me on stage you said we should talk about it does it create this weird MEV like incentive mechanism on the lightning network

where you have these different assets going through lightning nodes and there's that mess with the incentives of the node topology yeah i mean i don't i don't really mean it's just recently launched we had we had the fortune of having lalu on stage here yesterday to present on it um and what it hit the it hit the dev mailing list the day before that i believe um so it's really fresh so i expect people will you know look into it uh but you know as someone who does run a routing node run a lightning routing node um and i see that we have a lot of you know lightning's great i've lightning's one of those things where i just go through like four

month cycles where i'm bullish and bearish on lightning um but i've run a lightning routing node the whole time and i continue to use lightning but there are things that need to be refined on lightning it's an unfinished spec right and i don't know if nfts on lightning are the thing that i get excited about like i think stable coins are interesting i'm interested in hash rate derivatives could they be tokenized that's my stable coin yeah yeah there's a lot of um assets issued on the liquid network too and there's this huge divide internally within the liquid federation should liquid become this thing that like eats ethereum and all these other uh shitcoin blockchains or should liquid be a system for cheap and fast bitcoin payments on a layer two

blockchain right and and it's it's uh really interesting to see how these layer two networks and communities will evolve over time i mean the i guess the rough consensus is like why not both but it can be a distraction and you get lots of scams it's it's it's really got its trade-offs right yeah so i mean marty had a specific uh when he when he was cheerleading taro he had a specific uh framing which is that an obsolete shit coin so it makes every shit coin obsolete yeah does it that could potentially it could potentially that wouldn't have made the tweet as fire right could potentially well craig do you have any thoughts on this or is this like no yeah i mean obviously i haven't

really had a chance to look into it um in any great detail but obviously the one of the bounding qualities of the lightning network is the amount of liquidity that's locked up into it so if this brings additional liquidity that is a good thing um you know are there going to be other second order effects hard to say at this point you know i think it's we're just starting as a community to kind of look at what's being being being done i think you know it's it's it's interesting but it's not it's not super interesting in the long term we obviously have a long-term vision of a bitcoin only future um but it may be sort of an interesting diversion on on that part i definitely help us to get there who knows it's a cool part of the of their vision i'll say that as opposed to

uh like synonyms proposal where synonyms proposal essentially has you have to have dedicated lightning channels for whatever shitcoin you're transferring uh so then that's completely separate liquidity like they it's called the lightning network but it's it's not really interoperable with the greater lightning network in this proposal it is pretty cool that you know you could just be running a routing node that only sees sats and doesn't even know um that that any token is involved and only the edges have to know so essentially like if tether was successful on lightning uh it could create an incentive where there is way more liquidity on the lightning network because Tether is not on Tron or Solana or whatever bullshit, and those routing nodes

in between could end up making way more in fees as a result, right? So I definitely agree that that is definitely a very cool aspect of it. It sounds like you're becoming bullish on Tero live on stage. I mean, you're right. I'm just trying to be fair. I'm just trying to be fair. I don't think it's going to obsolete shitcoins, though. We were also reminiscing earlier of Bitcoin 2019 when we did the first live RHR.

On a picnic table. On a picnic table. Matt had a fresh face. He looked about 15 years younger, wearing the same shoes. It's just crazy to think of how big this conference has gotten over the last three years specifically. Obviously, due to the fact that Bitcoin is a very big theme in the world right now. Bitcoin 2019, we were on a picnic table. There was 2,500 people at the conference, maybe even less, like 2,300 people at the

conference. The main stage for that event was probably around this size, maybe a little bit bigger. Definitely the actual stage was bigger, but seat-wise was probably maybe like 60% larger than this. Yeah, like this used to be the whole Bitcoin conference, just this room. And then Bitcoin 2020 was canceled because it was happening in California as COVID hit. And then Bitcoin 2021, we were outside in the scorching heat. Yeah, they put O'Leary inside.

In front of about 400 people with 13,000 people at the event. And now we're on this nice, beautiful open source stage and air conditioning with probably like 900 to 1,000 people in here. I'll take it. And we've got a live performer after, too. we love you freaks we do love you freaks um yeah it's crazy to think i mean you had odell beckham serena williams and aaron rogers opening the day do you know uh did i tell you that uh cnbc reached out to do an interview with me here and they kept asking for my pr person i was like i'm just a humble big corner like i don't have a pr person you like plan the whole

thing out and they thought they were booking odell beckham jr secondary odell and bitcoin it's amazing how quick that happens that's incredible let's fucking go so with all this attention coming to bitcoin obviously this conference 25 000 people here i'd like to hear your thoughts whiz and craig like in terms at the protocol level and the network level in terms of decentralization and usability? What do you guys think the state of Bitcoin is as a network right now? State of Bitcoin? That's a good question, huh?

I don't know. I mean, the community is very strong. But there's also like this mix. It's like a Venn diagram or something where you've got the Bitcoin, the hardcore Bitcoiners, which are probably in this room. And then you've got the crypto people. And then you've got just the total shitcoin scams, right? and it's it it's like obviously those circles are not the same size right as

you just described by the size of the comparing the different size of the stages or whatever and even around this conference there's like satellite cops like shit coin or something thanks a lot of doing something here yeah it's just yeah it's the community is evolving I guess it's very mainstream but the real Bitcoin community the core hardcore Bitcoin they're all here like in this room i feel right i mean yeah i have to agree with wiz um i wander around uh and i feel that the bitcoin conference is here in this hall um yeah it's kind of not really happening out there i mean that's not maybe fair because i haven't spent that much time time time time up there and

i'm sure they are interesting talks um but certainly what we've had here thanks to max there's been some really great talks it was definitely not just me there's a massive team that helped me couldn't have done it without them um i mean i behoove all of you an hour after this i think it's 4 p.m to go to the main stage because mauler's has got a insane announcement so matt hasn't even told me yet so it must be pretty big uh lip sealed yeah the um yeah i just came came back the the mining stage steve barber uh wit from compass uh bob uh and a gentleman ryan i believe from titan with aj had like a further decentralizing mining talk the mining stage is awesome right i mean i i've been stuck here and i love it uh but i i mean i i've looked all over

that agenda the agenda for the mining stage for today and tomorrow um i mean like historically like industry day is always very suit heavy you know and this year was the exception because we did highly technical open source conversations here so that was the rarity in terms of how they set up this conference usually but the ga days on the mining stage are pretty pretty awesome what was your how many talks did you watch so what was your favorite i must admit this is my second talk so the the last one i saw was my favorite but i think it's an important discussion like centralizing mining. Obviously, in the mining industry, it's always top of mind. You're seeing this massive migration of hash rates to the US and even more specifically to Texas, a lot of

massive on-grid operations that are just inherently centralized. You have people building 500 megawatt facilities that are very out in the open. And I think what Steve is doing with Upstream and black box to get more individuals mining and his framing with the black boxes it may not be as profitable but people really want it because they want privacy there's this there's this push for privacy downstream in the energy sector um from from individual bitcoin miners upstream gets much more efficient obviously because they're closer to the lowest cost power but downstream is being hardened because people want kyc free bitcoin i think that's a really cool move that's an an interesting comparison between like the mining stage and open source stage open source can just

be like a few shadowy super coders you know hacking away on github you don't you have no idea what their real name is but to do mining especially these days it's extremely capital intensive and you know you need to wear a suit to raise that kind of capital right i don't wear suits i know so we have so i guess both me and marty are going to be on the mining stage tomorrow separately Are you going to wear a suit? And so Marty's talk is titled, Is ESG an Attack on Bitcoin? Obviously, Marty doesn't think ESG is an attack on Bitcoin. So it should be a very interesting conversation.

Yeah, we'll talk about that tomorrow. And I'm doing a KYC-free home mining with EconoAlchemist and Diverter. So there's a lot of good conversations this year that I'm excited about. and I mean look at the end of the day there's just so much there's so much content that you have to watch

them after the fact yeah until you like catch them all yeah I did catch a clip of Dave Portnoy talking shit on me that was fun

but Portnoy he was talking shit about you? yeah funny though I actually texted him after trying to convince him to get Barstool's podcast

on Podcasting 2.0 I mean that seems obvious yeah I think that would be massive not only for Podcasting 2.0 but like having somebody like Barstool

what did Portnoy say about you? he's uh was he on he said i was shady when i worked at barstool while he was i was sneaking into the studios late at night while he was on state but the first time i recorded with marty was in barstool's merch closet with the t-shirts all around us yeah we literally and a bottle of mccallan the first what was that that was like episode 29 of the interview series yeah marty was like oh come over to the barstool studio like this is where i record i was like it's gonna be the most baller podcast studio ever i'm just like sitting in a fucking glass box and fucking t-shirts all around me hey humble beginnings man i had a lot of t-shirts yeah

um so we have yeah we'll keep 21 minutes we'll keep 15 minutes for q a um what is uh i got something if you can't think of anything you look like you're digging for something in there well that's what i was looking at my phone earlier like is there anything interesting but if you have something well i wasn't able to dig too far into it but blockstream and breeze announced oh that's cool the green light integration what uh you seem to know more about it than i do what's going on so i was talking to roy about it roy's here from breeze he's absolutely awesome um so first of all it's like a it's just an announcement of their plans to do it um but right now with breeze you essentially are running a lightning note on

your phone directly on your phone and if anyone's used breeze for podcasting 2.0 like your phone gets really hot really because it's like it's legitimately running a lightning node on your phone um and it also means that all of their different apps within breeze uh whether that's the actual wallet or whether that's podcasting or whether that's their point of sale and he wants to add video streaming and he wants to add all these different things they all need to be in the same app because they need a lightning node now green light is cool because it's an on-demand cloud node that blockstream it's a it's a service that blockstream runs and it's trust minimized because the actual keys are on your phone they're not on the server now there's obviously some trust

still in blockstream obviously the main one is that they actually are up but also they provide a watchtower service for you because when your node's offline someone can try and broadcast a bad state and steal your lightning funds right so there's a little bit of trust in blockstream but if they're not like your channel partner they shouldn't be able to take your funds and all these lightning wallets on your phone they're they're not trustless there's always first of all it's very hard for anything to be trustless but they're all like trust minimized taking different trade off balances like even with breeze with breeze your phone goes all offline you know your main channels open with breeze you know they're the only liquidity provider there's some trust there

in breeze now in this setup it's it's really interesting because um you yeah you have the keys on your phone green light is the node and then he can have all these different breeze apps that can all connect back to that node and separate them out so you don't have one big bloated app um that does all the things that's modular yeah and i guess like this is the first major partner with green light that i know of that's pretty cool it also means more sea lightning usage like core lightning usage do you want to talk about that did we talk about that last week we thought it was an april fool's joke yeah i mean we had christian decker up here and he kept he kept calling it sea lightning by accident yeah i mean we talked about it last week yeah we did

we already talked about it yeah and there's a lot of people in the room here the lightning flame wars are interesting the implementation wars what do you have any thought yeah the the green light logo is yellow what's up with that that just that just uh irks me so hard that's confusing right yeah i guess everyone's scared of you know making a green b because of b cash there's one right behind your head over there that's a square that's a square so it's like a little bit different yeah a hundred percent yeah i think bcash who was here when bcash happened when the fork happened yeah see for a lot of people bcash just does not even exist good there's no reason to uh

so you think they should call it yellow light or should they change the color of the logo i'm not a marketing person i don't know Yeah, I was actually reminiscing with Harry Sudeik about that, too. When we first met in 2017, all the topic was about the fork wars. And it's crazy, again, to think how far we've come from that. It was an important part of Bitcoin history, though, right? Kind of like Mt. Gox going bankrupt or the block size wars, whatever you want to call it. It proved that Bitcoin is resilient and it just got stronger afterwards.

it's so yeah it sort of needed to happen at some point right to prove that bitcoin could overcome that that's true yeah like even five six years ago it wasn't um maybe this is something we take for granted now now we kind of accept that bitcoin works extremely reliably but back then it was much more uh maybe experimental or we didn't have as much confidence maybe it was it was more of a something to play around with now you know you've got billionaires just going all in yeah Then you have other billionaires who want to change the code. Hashtag change the code. They're trying to change the code.

Anybody can change the code. Just getting people to run it, that's going to be hard. Well, Greenpeace can go fuck themselves. They love it. Real Bitpointers in here. What else do you want to talk about? uh well i had i lost the thought that just came back to me piggybacking on this fork wars were over how to uh scale bitcoin particularly at the block size level bcash went into arbitrarily just

double the block size other people thought segwit would be a more uh advantageous way to to increase the block weight and make it some more transactions oh there he is i was told to water up okay do you have a handheld sorry i'm dressed like fiat today steve you have a hand on mike steve go get a mic stick your head in there and ask them for a hand i'll tell them um the bends are here and we're not but the bends are here that's uh i got in a bit of a discussion this week we're under attack is there um Benz

Benz always oh no I can't see anything they brought a gaggle there's a gaggle of Benz get out of here get out of here there we go

Steve don't bring that sign up here no my little boy is six months his name is Ben oh okay fair enough I stand with Benz, baby. Did you get mobbed after your mining panel? That's what I assume.

I did, yeah. A lot of noobs came up to me, so I'd explain Bitcoin from scratch. What are your thoughts of this event? How's it going for you? I think it's been great. I came in a bit late, but a few NFT shills came up to me,

but they're nice people. Marty loves NFTs, though, and he just wants them online. I have no opinion on them. I'm sort of neutral, but mining is good. This year, it's nice to see excitement around mining. So I think the conference guys have done an amazing job with that. So I love them when I'm seeing out there in the booth section.

Do you want to tell the freaks about our special offer? Yeah, I'm shilling our black boxes. If you guys haven't seen them, they're mining out in the conference with a couple S9s. So, yeah. You want to tell them what a black box is? Yeah. Black box. It converts your KYC Bitcoin to non-KYC Bitcoin in the comfort of your home. It turns you into your own personal non-KYC exchange. It burns your fiat and makes beautiful Bitcoins. So every single one of you, every single one of you should get one um although i know it's expensive so i put out the plan on how

to build your own so you can just take a single sheet of plywood cut it in the sections that i drew up and build one and run an s9 off 120 volt in your garage or wherever and you'll get the sound kill you'll get all the you get you get to be on the black market uh like a true bitcoiner so go do that that's why it's called the black box oh yeah um oh and oh sorry and and i there is a promo uh if you go to our web store and type in freaks uh as a coupon code you get a further discount off bundles so it's a little bit extra off it's a promo on right now so freaks uh steve was in texas last week big recruiting trip when are you moving it was a bit of a exploratory trip yeah uh there's a lot of action in texas uh i'm stuck up in canada uh i don't know how i got here

i guess it's a different story but uh canada is uh not great for business right now so we were checking out texas for the oil and gas bitcoin mining stuff what about nashville uh so uh i want to go to nashville um i met peter mccormack last night and he invited me there so i might go in august and actually i heard nashville is rocking uh you guys do a good job at your meetups yeah they're all and tom asserio one of my favorite guys at bitcoin good boy fucking awesome he's from tennessee he lives in tennessee now and from what i see it's just a glorious place yeah it's a glorious place yeah well lots of people are moving there right i mean you got already like the bitcoin magazine office is headquartered there and uh not to dox anybody else who's living

there but a lot of cool bitcoiners uh apparently are moving there yeah but all the cooler bitcoiners in austin so i'm kidding people think this conference is bad wait for your wef conference that's coming to town uh is that uh wef plus coindesk consensus yeah talk about being tone deaf wef and coindesk yeah world like world economic forum have you heard of them who is nobody knows he's got he's he's a shady character is he the emperor or is he the is he the sith or the is he the apprentice like we don't know that's the only question we don't have to get into that though we've got 10 minutes and 30 seconds left we usually open it up to q a at the end here there's a lot of people if any of you guys have any questions do we have any mics to

hand out or are we just standing up and screaming that uh no wonder the bends are here we i don't have them on why don't you just read the shout out you put in there yeah ben did actually yeah i had to reach out the two freaks and tell them they dm me after we usually don't do the shout outs of the live show just it's not uh not enough time what's the most underestimated announcement this week what is the most underestimated announcement it hasn't been made yet um are you announcing the announcement now matt just did the uh what is the most underrated announcement i don't know maulers

matt's hinting here uh do you guys talk about the cash app i thought that was pretty cool A lot of easier onboarding, easier user experience. Seems like some good stuff. And lightning deposits, right? Yeah, the dual make it easier to pay. I mean, we've been talking about this a lot, but I actually had a conversation with Danny, who's working on the Cash App Wallet,

and it's really cool just how much they've simplified the UX of pointing your camera at a QR code, doesn't know if it's a fiat QR code, an on-chain, or a lightning code, and it just works. It picks up whatever it is and sends what it needs to. um let's give a shout out to the cash app for really pushing the ux barriers around bitcoin usage yeah i mean miles was great up there he fucking killed it yeah with absolute legend disclaimer they used to be a sponsor they're a sponsor of the stage and the stage yeah um

underestimate yeah i mean i always hope maybe aaron rogers and stacks ads that's boss how's that make you feel it's two years since stacks stacks ads first came out now it's just whatever just everyone stacks that we're gonna move to bits though dude we're moving out right yeah shit coins are obsolete and we're moving to bits i was expecting i was expecting another nation state to announce here so maybe not an underestimate well samson had like an overestimated announcement what was it i mean it was just uh it's like an island like a little island off of honduras prospera right prospera but like everyone thought that was going to be a whole country i think we need more whole countries i think el salvador is out on a proverbial island

we're used to whole countries now you know starts with islands man It starts with islands, grows from there. Fair enough, fair enough. I mean, I would love for the US or Canada to just come out and be like, we're not going to do anything. Run free with Bitcoin. Use it as you please. Which is, who was I talking about this with?

Mark Moss. I was talking about it with Mark Moss yesterday. That's the way it should be. We shouldn't have to wait for permission from the government to use Bitcoin the way we want to. The way America, the ideals it was founded on, think we should just be able to do it freely it doesn't strike me as organic to expect countries to like states like governments to adopt it doesn't seem yeah the incentives and game theory

is not exactly yeah exactly you don't yeah you don't want whole nation states adopting you just want their citizens to feel comfortable adopting and use it as they they want to especially if they have a money printing machine i guess it was kind of a no-brainer for el salvador though right because they were using the U.S. dollar. They didn't even have their own currency. Yeah, and the Federal Reserve is just printing out that trillions of dollars of money, and they're getting inflated and no benefits at all.

So it's like a very easy decision for them, right? But most other countries that are printing their own currency, it's against their interest to adopt it. It's like slaughtering their own golden goose in a way. Right. So I guess for El Salvador, their golden goose already got slaughtered internally before that. So it was a lot easier for them.

Do you have any thoughts on this, Greg? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I think they're certainly early for their time. I don't think we expect any other countries to announce, certainly in the next few days. And there are a lot of downsides when a country does this, right? There's a lot of custodial wallets. There's a lot of, you know, kind of implementation issues of trying to build this in on a wider societal level. So as you were saying, Marty, it's almost better in a way that we have this kind of

organic growth where it takes time yes but by the time that a government eventually says you know we're going to use this thing well a lot of people are already using it but using it in the right way or at least able to tell their friends and family this is how you should do it don't just use the government's wallet but you know use your own own wallet and i think that that's you know so that's going to happen anyway so i'm i'm not too fussed at the rate of country adoption because as you say i think it's happening anyway yeah raise your hands if you've been to the bitcoin bazaar in in the conference okay uh raise your hand if you spent bitcoin in the miami area that's pretty awesome like i love that we have both the circular economy here i love that we

have every everywhere around this conference you can pay with lightning and a bunch of different companies and groups of people have been onboarding businesses in the in the surrounding area i mean were at a bar last night that was on board that accepted bitcoin dude it was crazy uh my flight from austin yesterday i came in there was a few of the unchained guys on the flight as well and tyler who created the intro to our podcast was going to a hotel right down the street so we hopped in the new but we shared an uber and then somebody was coming to the conference like are you guys going to south beach this is probably not what you should do if you're a big winner he's like can i hop in the uber with you like yeah and he like we like split the uh he was like i'll pay you over

strike i was like yeah here's a lightning invoice and like he paid me in the uber it's like as soon as i landed i ran into a bitcoin or i was willing to like pay me in sats to split an uber it was pretty cool i think i have the opposite strategy when the uber driver asks me if i'm the bitcoin i'm like what's that bite coin that's you shill them a shit coin just so for good offset purposes i i don't own any bit tron is the future and he just doesn't do anything to you yeah it's really cool to see prolific shout to like ibex and oshi you've been going oh she's michael from oshi just fucking never stops yeah he never stops ibex is onboarded 40 merchants i mean ibex and oshi also work together um so it's very complimentary i mean one of the most bullish fundamentals of this

year period is i really feel like they're starting to be real momentum on a proper bitcoin circular economy and i'm being cautious about it because there were false starts in the past i mean yeah it's a big meme in like 2013 2014 hey what about bitpay adding lightning do we care no too late nicholas and the btc paid server team obsoleted them so it's funny you have to do kyc before you send them lightning do you do is it is it like a threshold i've never spent to a bitpay merchant well they don't even give you like a qr code do they they make you i mean they don't give you like a bitcoin address to pay do they give you like a lightning i don't know i have no idea yeah who cares is anybody using bitpay i think a lot of people are right

use btc pacer raise your hand if you use bitpay at your business zero somebody's pointing at somebody over there it's like a pretty it's kind of a mean it's kind of a mean question uh raise your hand if you've if you spent at a BitPay merchants in the last year? It's a few hands. Did they just give you an invoice? Bit 90? It's got it.

So he's saying it depends on the merchant. Some just give you a Bitcoin address. Yeah. Still catching up. But there's other merchants that just use a BTC pay server like uh you know to book your your flights or hotel there's so many places you can go now 100 so guys um i mean we have two minutes left i think we should probably end it with final thoughts but before we do before you all like jump out of your seats and stuff

we have a ride or die freak here who's going to perform for us captain youth in two minutes after we do our final thoughts so um i'm very excited about that and uh looking forward to that so craig you want to start with final thoughts sure so i mean uh great to be here and you know i just really um inspired by the number of people that i met and um feedback that i've got it's it's uh it's it's great to see in person the kind of passion um that people have i'm living in you know one corner of continents in the world where bitcoin is not um a general topic let's say and coming out here you can really experience the kind of passion and enthusiasm that people have having the space and that gives me energy to do what i do so yeah it's been great to be here so

far thanks craig where's final thoughts yeah i mean it's been miami's been great so far we started off with the beefsteak and that was amazing beefsteak's always special who went to the beefsteak yeah marty why isn't your hand up that's that's the best that's a very pregnant wife i've had i tweeted i have beefsteak for fomo yeah well you were missed everyone i was asking me about you i had to answer that question like a hundred times thank you for missing me freaks yeah yeah beefsteak was awesome and um you know this open source stage was awesome like every talk is these are this is the signal right these are the people that i want to uh listen to and hang out with i don't know what's going on in the other rooms yeah sure paying attention but

yeah steve well i'm happy to be up here i i listen to you guys i do a lot of driving in canada from calgary to lloyd to oil wells why not listen to you guys all the time so appreciate having me up here me and marty were shooting guns on a texas ranch the other day thank you steve illegal guns that we wouldn't build not u.s illegal but canadian illegal So it was a special experience. Steve had a cathartic experience on the gun range on Sunday. I've got a picture of him. He's got the biggest shit-eating grin on his face.

FN Scar, man. Oh, my God. There's a Guns and Bitcoin conference coming up. I don't know. Are you guys going to that? Guns and Bitcoin? I might want to. Yeah, I'm speaking at that in a few days.

Oh, awesome. It's down here in Miami, right? I mean, they're great dudes over there. Do you have any... Oh, yeah. That's it. That's it for me. Why don't you go first with the final thought?

And what are you holding? I wasn't going to do final thoughts, but we've been working with the Bitcoin company and we've turned that honey badger or they've turned that honey badger that we used to have on our T-shirts before Marty nuked the store because he was scared we were going to be ledger hacked. And proceeds are going to OpenSats, them and us. It's a three-way split. Yeah, shout out to my... It's pretty dope. This is the first time I've ever seen it in person. Shout out to my roommate, Brayden, out of college who made that design.

and shout out to max who made this 3d print it came out great dude i know you just walked up on stage and i had a hot mic but it came out fantastic final thoughts we're gonna win we're gonna win let's fucking go thank you freaks here comes captain youth the parallel paradox call it the doxalil Waking up, I check the price of Bitcoin Scrolling on down through the shit coins Hot damn, I'm up 20 bands Lessons once again, like

My account's at an all-time high When big bull talk, make bearers die Eat Milky Bar, so the price is gon' fly away Today, today, I pray Got my bags packed, who you wish you had that Try to tell the normies they ain't listen, now they sad, sad Big BTC, Lil Bro E, GRT I've been telling y'all to grab that

Bought link, I ain't even do no research Carry round bags so heavy that my knees hurt Please sir, this is for my family I've been buying daily for prosperity Okay, you got your suicide stack All in Bitcoin, I don't need no cash Fuck cock bucks, they suck I don't wanna pay stub

You can keep the cash I'ma stack until that day come Lambo, moonshot, I believe since day one Elon finna pump this shit to Mars No need to say none If you been on the sidelines Homo and it's my time Looping on you fast

Here hold my bags and watch them decline Waking up, I check the price a bit Scrolling on down through the shit coins Hot damn, I'm up 20 bands Lessons once again, like Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh My account's at an all-time high When big bull taught, embarrassed I eat

Milky bars, so the price is gon' fly away Today, today, I pray Shout out all the homies who just stack and stack Marty Bent, Matt Odell, Mr. Swan and Max Every fellow OG, RCT Loom Dart, R&R, Goops and Kobe If you don't know me, this is strong hands Only have fun staying poor if you capitulate

Homie, I could never do that Hardly ever go flat Small team won't do full center for ham cat I'm long with a whole stack I'm Giga Brain Bull Chad Okay, here's what happened before the IRS met I went full bolt hard and the bear has died It sounds tall tales but it's no lie See, I lost all my money in the exchange hack And the boating accident that happened after that

Plus I'm down a couple racks from when I bought Zcash It's okay, I'll write it off, whatever helps the tax, yeah Waking up, I check the price of Bitcoin Scrolling on down through the shit coins Hot damn, another 20 bands The license once again, like ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh My account sat an all-time high Went big, bought hard, make bearers die Eat Milky Bar, so the price went and flew away

But that was yesterday Thank you for watching.