TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - Rabbit Hole Recap: Week of 2019.05.06

Episode Date: May 9, 2019

This week Marty and Matt are joined by Murad Mahmudov from Adaptive Capital to discuss: - Binance hack - onlynet=onion in config file - h/t Evan Kaloudis - TFTC.io launch - Our Lightning node was stolen https://1ml.com/node/02d419c9af624d0e7a7c90a60b9ffa35f4934973a9d7d3b4175cc3cc28b7ffcde1 - bip-taproot https://github.com/sipa/bips/blob/bip-schnorr/bip-taproot.mediawiki - Wasabi guide bitcoin-only.com @6102bitcoin https://github.com/6102bitcoin/FAQ/blob/master/wasabi.md - Honeyminer Mac release - One entity is responsible for 50% of BCH transactions - Whirpool - Andrew Chow on PSBT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6xZSRDXUiU&feature=youtu.be Shoutout to this week's listener contributor, Pedro. Here's the video he shared https://youtu.be/NO1aDZ6L4NQ?t=1118 Thank you to this week's sponsors. Unchained Capital. Head over to www.unchained-capital.com/vaults and checkout their 2-of-3 multisig vaults. You get 3-months free of Saifedean Ammous' The Bitcoin Standard Research Bulletin when you sign up. Cash App. Head over to the App Store or Google Play Store, download cash.app and start #stackingsats today.

What is up, freaks? It's your boy Marty Bent here on a Thursday afternoon for another edition of Rabbit Hole Recap. We have a guest in the studio for this week, but before we introduce our guest, let's introduce our sponsors. This week's edition of Rabbit Hole Recap is brought to you by Unchained Capital.

You freaks know all about them. Their vault problem, vault solution that they just released, the 2-in-3 multi-sig vault. You guys can use Treasure or Ledger with that. You control 2-in-3 keys at all times. If you ever need Unchained to come in and sign that third key or that second key for you, they can come in. They also have their loan platform as well. So if you're established on the vaults, you'll easily be able to get liquidity in the future via loan.

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Gentlemen, the price of Bitcoin is $6,044.72. We're currently at block. Waiting, waiting, waiting. $575,293. Binance got hacked at block 575,013. Before we get to that, we got to introduce Murad Mamadov, founder of Adaptive Capital, is back in the studio with us. Murad, welcome back. Thank you so much for having me, guys, once again. My favorite show. Happy to be here again and talk to the boys.

Yeah, so we are officially 270 blocks away from the Binance hack. I think that was the best fast math I've done on this podcast in a while. So let's talk about it. Binance was hacked of 7,049 Bitcoin, I believe. 7,000 and change Bitcoin a couple of afternoons ago. There's been a lot of hoopla on the internets and on Twitter in particular, because CZ, the CEO of Binance, came out and basically nonchalantly said that they thought about rolling back the chain, the Bitcoin blockchain, coordinating with miners to roll back the chain to solve this issue. obviously they did not go forward with that but it caused quite a stir um other things to think about with this incident particular they had the the safu fund uh which is covering the losses so

there's a lot to talk about which is denominated in bnb i'm pretty sure is it well there's a lot to talk about this subject let's just start uh initial reactions gentlemen uh i'll let you take the floor there was first of all the price is over six thousand dollars right now right yes that's awesome okay um i the the hack was of their hot wallet they intentionally you know segregated their wallets as is like common practice now after so many previous exchange hacks we've had so i think it was 7047 bitcoin were taken yes um and that was basically their entire hot wallet got drained uh but that was only two percent of their holding so intentionally the way everything was designed it worked as designed so even though all their safeguards all their

measures got compromised the ultimate safeguard which was segregating the wallets into hot and cold um protected them in in that regard the second thing is is that the real most ridiculous part of this whole thing is at the point when cz was discussing it it was already too late no way he was going to be able to pull it off like he was discussing it three hours later five hours later like it was way way too late like if you wanted to do something like this and like actually be successful at doing it you would you would need to do it pretty much right away the longer you wait the the less likely it becomes so before we get into like the whole uh rollback slash double spend solution let's talk about the hack in particular a lot

of people hinting not hinting but speculating that it might be an inside job because the way uh that these bitcoins were moved out of the wallet uh they were moved to uh back 32 addresses when Binance's API isn't supporting that yet. So the speculation is it may be somebody in-house that was able to route around that particular sort of hurdle. I don't know if that necessarily points to it being an inside job. But with these hacks, a lot of times they are inside jobs. It's always the most likely thing to be.

What was interesting was that most of... So the funds went to like four non-Segwit addresses and then the rest were Segwit addresses. So some people are speculating that maybe the way that Binance's safeguards were set up to verify their withdrawals, they weren't actually even looking at Segwit addresses, which could be a thing. But I don't know if that necessarily points to inside job or not inside job. And then the other thing is a lot of people think it was basically through a compromise of their API key. So a bunch of users who they're able to automate the connection to the exchange through that API. If all those keys are compromised, you can do like a mass withdrawal at once.

Yes. So it's a speculation around it. All right. So let's jump into the reorg and slash double spend that people have been talking about for the last 24 hours. I think in general, this is a permissionless system, of course. But in general, CZ suggesting something like that is a little bit untoward, in my view. Not in the best taste. But in general, I think it's definitely a conversation to be had. I think it's good that a lot of people had sort of a brief lesson in game theory yesterday. Financially speaking, every 10 minutes, something like that is getting more and more expensive for them to do something like that.

frankly I think it's not something that can be done at this point but I think in the future with the declining block rewards this is definitely going to be a topic that will probably be revisited a couple more times going forward and I think like proportionally speaking with the with the block rewards declining as the percentage of revenue of miners uh revenue um it's likely that something like this sort of is going to return to the table of discussion but um if like i kind of share matt's opinion here if like a reorg of this sort or the quote-unquote bribing miners happens like in the first two or three blocks or like right after something like that happened then it's like a manageable

situation and probably something to be expected like a decade from now but um at the moment i don't think i think this is a little other than concern concern concern trolling yeah you know it it got it all started i think through concern trolling that that caught the eye of cz so we put this idea in cz's head and he hadn't really fleshed it out yet but if he was actually a properly informed actor i would say that he would have realized ahead of time and now he definitely realizes and now all the other exchange operators realize that just mentioning it is a risky move as someone who has a major stake in bitcoin success like in like cz doesn't want the bitcoin price to go down he binance will be would be fucked if if bitcoin got fucked like like they

would just their whole business would go down the shitter so so he even even suggesting that can hurt that and can hurt that value that he has and and actually trying to go through with it would hurt it even more and that's why most actors never would and even if he did at that point he would need an overwhelming majority of miners to do anything about it and the miners have to you know are operating under that same game theory where they don't want to hurt their investment and jeopardize the whole system yeah you're you're alluding to the loose game theory that exists and has been talked about over the course of the last 24 hours and yeah the coordination effort that it would take just to get the miners on board alone is something that seems massive um to reorg it so

let's let's jump into like the rework versus double spend was there two different types of no no so it was going to be basically what you do is you send out yeah since binance has has the keys already obviously because it was their withdrawal transaction they can construct a new transaction that uh instead of paying the hacker pays the miners all the money not they they there's no situation here where binance can get their money back but what they can do is uh you know theoretically is they could burn they could have burned the the hacker's money yeah the hacker wouldn't get it the miners would get it instead yeah so the hypothetical was like set out a transaction for that seven thousand bitcoin with like a thousand bitcoin fee that would be

divvied up between the mining but the thing is if if if the if the thief realized at the same time the thief could then reciprocate and the thief doesn't have to pay block rewards while binance does so the thief so presumably it would turn into like a bidding thing back and forth where ultimately it just only the miners would get the money yes and you would potentially do like a lot of damage to bitcoin's credibility at the same time so it's the um it's no matter how you cut it it doesn't really ever make any kind of logical sense i don't think so no neither do i and um again the loose game theory that exists a lot of people yes while this is technically possible it's sort of the first layer through which you look at this if you dive deeper and think about

the coordination effort the incentives involved the sunk capital and the hardware and energy contracts it becomes less and less likely that that miners would capitulate on this in my opinion um i agree i would add though if something like this becomes a common occurrence probably uh lower the bitcoin ux quality a little bit because the transactors would essentially need to wait for more time before they're confident that their transaction actually went through and i think martin might crucify me for saying this on his podcast but um a little i think if if something like this like actually becomes a frequent part of reality uh without naming any specific names but i will say that this might increase interest in um assets where

such reorgs are impossible this is when you need like the bleep button i uh you could say whatever you want on this podcast i just i just i i think like all of this is uh all this discussion is is it's really good that we've had this discussion on twitter over the last 24 hours or whatnot um i mean it was really frustrating about to go to sleep and everyone freaking the fuck out i was so happy i fell asleep early yeah i just sent out like a quick tweet i was just like minors aren't idiots and then i went to bed but anyway um but i think it's important to realize that most of this discussion is is it's really like a it's a mental circle jerk like we're theoretically thinking of these these more far-off issues because if you look at if you look at the number of orphan blocks

that bitcoin has had over the last year and a half like it's not that many it's like i think it's like 10 or 15 or something like that and they're all one one-offs you know there's never i mean the last i don't know when the last time there was like a two block reorg but it's been a long fucking time so you know if it becomes if there if there is some type of issue there in the in the future where we see like fee sniping and stuff like that because there's not enough you know big enough transaction backlog then it can be addressed at that point as well yes um okay so overall i thought this was a great learning experience uh for any like the concept of coinbase transactions and the releasing of the block reward sort of came up so you freaks out there that don't

don't know how like the the release of bitcoins works the miner that mines a block um the first transaction that block is the coinbase transaction which releases right now the 12 and a half bitcoin um that miners get for mining a block 100 blocks after that block is mine so that game that comes into the game theory as well the opportunity cost of receiving that block reward or um potentially like in a reorg not getting that uh when it's reorganized i i would really recommend um my friend's upcoming piece bitcoin the revolution in accounting and also his piece uh the ledger assurances and cryptocurrencies uh by this guy on medium and twitter known as permeable nino he's worked in accounting like in actual uh like

assurance companies for a couple of years so he brings a very unique perspective to the table and he actually uh shined light on a very interesting sort of mental model where he says that technically fiat currencies gold and cryptocurrencies they're all similar in the sense that their moneyness comes from them being accounting tools and the like the way they are valued over the long term is the trust in these accounting like institutions right and essentially he says that bitcoin is much much more trustworthy than anything we've had in the past without needing all these layers and layers of laws and people etc and he like talks about some of like both like external but also like intra-blog dynamics as well and things like that and it's just very interesting so essentially

the all of these forms of money are essentially excel spreadsheets metaphorically speaking and essentially these different forms of spreadsheets are competing how much people believe in them and like them and have faith in like have faith in their strength yes it's uh i saw an interesting tweet too it's like bitcoin's not perfect but it's the best thing we have in these accounting systems i forget who said it yesterday uh out of all these accounting systems it's the best we have right now um yeah but this financing let's go back to like the saffu fund like is that legitimate like what is it what is what is going on there it's i think he takes a portion of fees which are calculated in bnb and then holds the bnb and like an insurance fund do you are you aware of

this at all mirad uh yeah it's uh i believe it's 10 of the fees but it's all bnb right yeah it's i believe it's denominated in bnb if that's the case then that fund has been growing very substantially but that's like a little bit ridiculous when like your insurance fund is is is held in your centralized exchange token like that's like in any kind of real situation where you need an insurance fund like bmb should be like in the shitter in terms of value yeah i mean i guess it would be more prudent to diversify it into a couple of other assets as well but at the same time bmb has been doing so well in the last four months that really it's like it's the least it's the only crypto asset that's above its all-time high among like the among the long

existing ones right and so um it might not have been prudent but thus far it has been a very wise decision on their part because it's as big as it could have been yeah i just i i i question the the use of the term insurance fund uh when it's you know that's like that's like saying you know like coinbase has insurance because they like have a bunch of equity in their own company or something i mean and bnb is even worse because it's not even equity right and past performance is an indicative of future results one day bnb is just going to go to zero which is just you heard it here you heard it here first and you just never know when it's going to happen it's going to be like yeah well this this instance in particular highlighted i think marat and i were shooting

the shit about it before we started recording like some of the incompetence that exists uh at at the head of some of these crypto companies like a lot of these people are held on pedestals but they're they're okay to to go on twitter and release a video saying that they're okay with rollbacks pretty obviously not understanding the whole gravity of the situation nonchalantly you know and and he like so does he not that's the craziest thing to me like does cz not have like couple bitcoin wizards like working at his company that he could talk to instead of you know doing like a powwow with twitter people apparently he's he's uh hooking up with john mcafee now mcafee is going to push him in the right direction that's good he's a very experienced cyber security

expert yeah he's one of the best i'm not a distributed systems engineer myself but it's quite ironic how a lot of these types of uh events they often reveal that a lot of the times like even some of the biggest miners or some of the biggest exchange operators they're not necessarily bitcoin experts they're just like doing their thing you know and that sort of highlights the fact of how hard it would have been to coordinate too you don't have to be a bitcoin expert to realize that like six hours after your hack of only 7 000 bitcoin like you're not getting it back it's nothing you can do nothing with it yes um another thing that's highlighted too which i want to touch on before we move on to the next topic is this highlights maybe a benefit that

that BetterHash could provide if that mining pool software was adopted in which individual miners are able to construct their own block templates and you would have to coordinate with a lot more miners to make this happen. Though, there are some trade-offs with BetterHash. The individual miners have to run their own full node and like we just mentioned all these people running

these businesses, mining companies included, as technically competent as is assumed sometimes but it's definitely a net positive because we'll get more full nodes more monitors running full nodes i mean better hash would just would absolutely enhance the game theory in this type of situations um otherwise like you're really relying on you know like 10 to 20 people who run these pools to not act honestly but just to act rationally just to act in their own best interest and not act like complete fucking dumbasses like you need the majority of them to to not be dumbasses so if we have like a larger pool of people that that are you know are but then enough will always not be a dumbass yes so let's try to

better hash for a better future better hash for a better future i love that i love that you should put that on a hat we might we may just one day speaking of hats tftc.io launched this week go check it out there's hats for sale uh i'm wearing one right now there you go limited edition limited a dish um let's talk about our noddle node which got stolen overnight yeah someone stole it yesterday what happened there dude i don't know someone broke into our office and they they took our notes so uh so now it's it's running on tor only and we can't track them down but it looks like uh the person is is keeping it up and running they have you know all the channels are still up and running looks like they're still targeting high up time and that

they'll reciprocate channels that are over 2 million sats. Well, good for whoever's running our node now. Yeah, I'm just glad. It seems like it's like a knowledgeable Bitcoiner who's running it, so it's good to see. Good for him. Well, let's actually keep this. Since he's running it on Tor last week,

we touched on this. We weren't certain on... It kills LND, but it doesn't kill... It doesn't kill... Full node routing? The full node. The full node actually broadcasts on... It defaults to broadcast on...

My understanding is it defaults to broadcast on ClearNet and Tor. But if you wanted to do only Tor, Evan Kolodis... But this is... That's for the... That's for like... Like you run it on your computer or something. You just in the config file, you put that. What is it?

You do... You go to the config file, only net equals onion. Yeah, only net equals onion. And then that way, it'll only run on Tor. Yeah, and it won't... If Tor goes down for some reason, it won't spread your messages to ClearNet. Yes. so we'll i think uh evan tweeted out a link to that github of how to do that so we'll put that

out there as well um so our lightning node did we talk about it no we haven't talked about it we don't have a lightning node anymore dude i know but while we did have control of it we didn't talk about this last week because this happened this week uh 0.74 percent of uh funds on lightning were running through it at one point yeah that's probably why the dude stole it from us and running on the noddle too what's that speak to the the powerfulness of of the noddle dude the noddle like like i'm not surprised that the that the thief turned on tour because it's so easy on the noddle like you just you just click start tour you check two boxes and then the whole thing just switches over gives you gives you an onion address and you're good to go all your channels are still

up and everything and now uh the person running our node on tour can only uh accept incoming channels from other tour users correct yeah my understanding is is your node has to be running on tour to connect to to the noddle running on tour and uh but but the reverse isn't true so if you're running a tour node you're like a super user basically you can you can hop between the two you can open channels between the two and i'm pretty sure if you so you open a channel with someone who is in the clear net and so then they become your peer i'm pretty sure they can open a channel back but they can't just like preemptively open a channel with you yeah but we we need as everyone should be running especially everyone running their

personal nodes should be running it through tour and should be running a tour node as well tour relay yeah yes and you know it's like unconfirmed but trying to get one click tor relay on the noddle so fingers crossed there's another shout out to the noddle team it seems like they're pushing out uh updates every week it's static back uh static channel backups now tor shout out to that team yeah so tor relays are basically tor nodes uh for tor not for bitcoin but but but bitcoiners be running tor relay nodes because they're going to need them um for running from running lightning uh over tor so do that do your part be aware um something else you freak should be aware of we

officially have the first bip to be released that proposes a snore signature among a bunch of other upgrades to be included into the bitcoin uh code via soft fork at some point in the future peter Wula dropped the BIP-taproot BIP, which basically proposes that to get snoring with a soft fork, but it would also include Merkle branches, mass, Merkleized abstract syntax trees, new SIG hash modes, new opcodes like check SIG from stack, taproot, graphroot, Groot, and cross-input aggregation. This is a number of upgrades. A lot of Bitcoiners have been talking for a while.

The thing with Bitcoin development is Bitcoin core team in particular likes to make changes as little as possible. So this is a bit which includes a lot of things in one foul sweep, one salt fork. Nothing is a foregone conclusion. Everything that Peter Willa sort of proposed still needs to be tested, reviewed, debated in public about the tradeoffs that are included. But it seems like on paper, I think I said in the bent earlier this week, it would make the 2012 Miami Heat jealous of the incredible package deal this is. Murad, do you have any thoughts on this? Murad's got no thoughts. That was one of my favorite bent lines I've ever read. I quoted that on Twitter.

That was great. I literally chuckled. Yeah, I mean, this is great news. This is – it's just – we're going to have, like, a lot of discussion about this over the next couple of weeks, months, hopefully not years. Yes. And – Yeah, so the – if – again, this is not – this particular package, proposed package is not a foregone conclusion. It still has to be debated.

Again, the tradeoffs, how it would be soft fork, the signaling for that. But if it is ever implemented, it seems that it would provide a bunch of good things, particularly more efficiency, more privacy, more functionality with off-chain smart contracting functionalities and other things. right yeah my understanding is like the key the key thing is is it allows you to construct multi-signature transactions that it's impossible to tell how many signatures are in the transaction and that's where you get like this this this major privacy and efficiency gain because you know we'll be able i i i presume that we'll be able to do like coin joins and no one will be able to tell that it's even a coin join in the first place.

Stuff like that. Coin joins, paid endpoint transactions, a bunch of other things. So like BIP taproot does not, and Blockstream developer tweeted this out earlier too, BIP taproot does not only allow N of N key path spending with Moosig,

but also K of N threshold signatures. So this is, it's just, I think it has something to do with taproot and graphroot, where those two editions in particular create a more robust smart contract scripting language, I'm pretty sure.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's cool. We'll post a link to that BIP in the show notes, and I'm looking for something on Twitter right now that I watched yesterday. I think it would be cool, too. Yeah, so Andrew Chow,

um he recently went to the san francisco bit devs meetup and um presented partially signed bitcoin transactions it's a cool 30 minute video that we'll share in the notes as well that um doesn't particularly deal with this bip at all but i just had it on the top of my mind there um yeah so another thing that i touched on as well in that edition of the bent is like hopefully we only have like a few more if that big upgrades like this where we're replacing parts like ec snore signatures will replace ecdsa and we're able to start tightening screws more get closer towards ossification yeah this is a big step uh this would be a big step towards towards ossification give us some last critical things that we we really need yeah i would argue

the biggest step towards optification up to this point in bitcoin's history um i think it's a if again and this is not a foregone conclusion at all peter willow was was very quick to come out on twitter at people who i love that they thought this would be upgraded right away and say hey we need we need to talk about these trade-offs and again i mean we don't have to go into like how you reach consensus about this that's a conversation i'm sure we're going to be discussing this for week for years yeah for for lots of weeks for a while um it's going to be this is the first of a reoccurring topic it's interesting you mentioned ossification because on a couple of podcasts adam back adam back said that if there's any sort of superior technology or breakthroughs

in these areas then um what what could happen in the far future is that they could simply move the utxo set into a completely different sort of uh underlying sort of ledger so is this uh is this a endorsement of ossification or uh an argument against it well it kind of challenges the idea that ossification is going to be something that stays intact forever no i agree with that no i wait so basically i've i think i've said that to you on previous pods here right You might have. That I was like, even if it was some ridiculous technology that we couldn't fork in or anything, we could just take the UTXO set, start from the most current part of the UTXO set, and start that way, right? Which begs the question, when we value these assets, what's the underlying value?

It's the UTXO set, that's what I said. Is it the UTXO set or is it the actual underlying ledger? Which is the UTXO set? It's the ledger with the UTXOs in it. so the idea is that like the ledger of the future might look something completely different to what bitcoin is today right or any of these technologies the same history but the utx so like the ownership same history the same right yeah now my question is is it the history of transactions that's valuable or the tech the history of transactions and like the tech makes that history possible you

couldn't have the history without the tech in the first place but it's the that's why that's why like bitcoin is worth so much more than bitcoin cash and why bitcoin cash is just going to go to fucking zero long term in terms of bitcoin because because bitcoin is the most fair ledger that we have ever had that we ever will have and that can't be usurped whatever the current uh the current farthest tip is the dominant of the most dominant chain will be it will be what's valuable History is sort of tied to the Lindy effect that drives its value as well, correct? Yes. Yeah.

So, like, I've theorized, like, I was, like, I was wondering, like, about speculative attacks. Like, farther down the line, let's say, like, some theoretical altcoin gets, starts gaining on bitcoin in terms of i guess adoption or all these different metrics because all of them could be gaming individually but let's just say it's gaining on bitcoin the way i see it is market cap is the only thing that matters but that could be gamed in certain ways or whatever um but let's just say it is and so then bitcoin there's a fork of bitcoin with just it's just an exact clone of whatever that alt chain is, but they just, they just put the UTXO set, the Bitcoin UTXO set on. So like, kind of like, like a non-scammy, like Bitcoin private, like what happened with Bitcoin

private, but no pre-mine, like actual, like respected developers, um, like an actual, like real substantial improvement. Um, I think that if the market actually values the tech of that alt chain and it's not just pure speculative bullshit then then the ultimate winner of those three chains will be the will be the you know the fork of the that that that fork of the alt chain with the bitcoin utx07 it's like the ultimate market way of just gobbling up your competitor it's a fun hypothetical sometimes i wonder though whether sort of this line of thinking is simply bitcoiners convincing themselves that like they will not lose money no matter what or is this actual reality no so like so let's run through like let's run through like a scenario

um if if you had if you had like some like ridiculous situation where uh shah 256 was compromised um and we and we needed to uh switch pow and we and we switched we switched to like script or something like that um i think like i i think bitcoin would overtake would overtake litecoin and hash power like almost instantly um if if that situation sort of arose and you and so that situation that people point to and say litecoin is a hedge for bitcoin in some kind a shot to the sixth failure does to make zero sense to me because of course miners are gonna they're gonna be like oh my god my asic is worth so much more money now and then the switching costs seem pretty arduous too at that point what do you mean in this hypothetical future of switching

from bitcoin to the quote-unquote better better chain better tech chain yeah the switching cost just of i guess it also depends on like when that happens because i guess at the moment all cryptocurrencies are quite speculative collectibles to me so we can be moving back and forth but uh i agree with you that if this happens like two way way too down the line then yeah there's certain network effects that are too tightly placed yeah but yeah like i feel like those network effects are like kind of in the utxo set right because that's where everyone's storing their money and that's the other question is like you say you think it's still in the speculative of collectible

phase. I don't know, man. I don't think anybody really uses Bitcoin to transact for actual transacting purposes. And yes, the chain is moving a billion dollars or more per day, but I think a lot of it

has to do with the speculation itself. It has to do with exchange movements, OTC movements, trading, derivatives, options, things like that. It's moving like five billion a day, isn't it? Is that what Coinmetrics said? Something like that. Because I looked it up to post it to a b cashier the other day because he was like oh it's like a ponzi scheme you don't spend it i was like five billion five billion dollars worth of transactions per day

i mean but is that really is is is i mean there's so many different characteristics of money right so like i would say that um like hoarding bitcoin isn't really as as speculative as as maybe like trading bitcoin um and like i'd be hesitant to like bat batch them into the two different categories because even though it is obviously like a speculative investment it is also people saving money that they believe is harder money which is exactly how you should use money if you find yourself with hard money in your hands right yeah and then you couple that with the fact like the infrastructure being built out right now like particularly like things like fidelity coming online and supporting bitcoin only at the moment gives bitcoin a huge advantage and

sort of helps sort of protect it from from long-term uh competitors i would argue helps so again there's like this threshold that will be reached we don't know when it is i believe we're closer to it than i believe you do mirad um that will reach where i'll just be like all right it's it's too much to compete with i agree with you i think one of the biggest uh and under-discussed strengths of Bitcoin is that it's much, much further ahead than any other crypto asset in terms of institutional adoption and financialization, institutionalization, things like that. Like people, frankly, all of these big institutions

aren't working on like Ethereum gateways. A lot of them aren't or Ethereum multisig whatever. Right. And but they are working on Bitcoin. All of them are right. So this is something that's like tough to achieve for sure. and bitcoin has a huge huge sort of advantage there yeah it's like in terms of like robustness like it's like not even close uh like like we were like all this discussion about like reorgs

and all the other chains can get reorgs so much easier 10x more susceptible yeah i was talking about like stellar who you know um so like stellar like all it takes to to freeze a transaction on stellar is a fucking court order like that's all you need didn't it come out this week that like stellar like if you took out two of their nodes it'd be completely unworkable yeah i think it was something like that i mean like this is the thing like people buying something like stellar it's just like it's such a bad decision because like so the way i see it and i guess we've said this on this podcast many many times now keybase is using it bro so like well second of all it's crazy how so many of these like technologists are into some of these relatively centralized

altcoins without even thinking about sort of the monetary underlying effects right but essentially why would you buy stellar because all of these things are competing to be money and something centralized will never be global money like period so it's already massively overpriced agreed hey you're preaching to the choir here bro same with ripple but but yeah i i think that a lot of people it's pretty crazy uh you know with with in the bitcoin space in this industry in general you have the you have two sets of people uh you have like the people who come at it from uh like a money side and people who come at it from like a tech side and you really have to have a little bit of both otherwise you're blind like you're completely fucked otherwise and that's how you

come to those conclusions that being said though i think the in terms of valuation like in terms of like the financial side of it in terms of pricing it the monetary side predominates because at the of the day when we price bitcoin we price it vis-a-vis fiat or vis-a-vis gold in a gold-like fashion and in that sense it's the monetary qualities that shine you know what i mean like people are cool with bitcoin being slower than some other blockchains but it doesn't matter because the it as long as the monetary and the ledger characteristics are strong people don't mind that like it's like less speedy than other things this is the fastest in terms of well Well, sometimes I would even argue that per unit of security, it's actually the fastest.

Yeah. And I would argue that's that's again, Bitcoin is slow, dumb and stupid. Like it's a feature. It's a feature. I value that. Per unit of immutability, it's the fastest. Yes, by far. Like not even fucking close. No. The what was that site? Somebody dropped a site a couple of weeks ago that that sort of visualizes the amount of or confirmations you would need on other POW blockchains to attain the same level of security

that the Bitcoin blockchain has in six confirmations. And Ethereum is the closest, and it's, like, 5x more time. Yeah. And then, like, shit like SV, like, the limit doesn't exist. Like, there's just no amount of confirmations you can, like, ever accept. Yeah. It's, like, ridiculous.

That's it. Great lessons on loose game theory this week. Happy that we've been talking about them. You know what's another thing about the Binance hack? um remember when that japanese exchange coin check got hacked of like 500 million dollars worth of nem like they just froze that shit they called up the nem like president they were like you have to stop that and they just stopped it wow like that was that was that and i think there was like some other super essentialized shit coin in there too like ripple or something something like that yeah

they just froze them all like that that was that no discussion none of that you know bullshit all right since we're back on the binance hack what if this hacker sends it this is actually a good segue to sends it to a wasabi wallet oh you know i kind of i was talking to someone like about this uh yesterday uh i'd prefer if if you're listening humble binance thief uh you know like just like wait a little bit you know it's like the satoshi uh thing to uh wiki leaks this is like just wait a little bit it'd be like it'd be better don't kick the hornet's nest well it's not that like i'm fine with kicking the hornet's nest like we'll probably like eventually like wasabi will have to be forked and uh and and and the coordinator whoever's running the coordinator has to be

anonymous um if they like go after no power on them um but if they don't then that's even better you know they're not based in the u.s um but i just think that people still are like like i could already see like the fun lines we're like i want i like want as many people to use coin join as possible so i prefer if we don't have like like the david schwartz's of the world and like the vinnies and all them like fucking telling people that oh if they coin join if they go if they use wasabi like they're gonna get mixed with the stolen binance coins like that would um that would it was just slow adoption so i would just prefer if he if he she they didn't do it you heard it you heard it here from matt o'dell's mouth don't kick the hornet's nest of wasabi please

but if they do it'll be fine i i think that i think look at the end of the day wasabi can't handle the volume of 7 000 bitcoin um it would literally take at current volumes it would take them years it would take them like probably over two years to make sure they're not mixed with their own coins uh yeah because otherwise like they're basically just mixing with themselves um so it's not really practical if they want to do it on like a slower basis in general with these hacks like the slower the attacker moves um in liquidating the coins the better off they are you don't want to try and like move large amounts but there's so many different ways they can use join market they can go into you know they can go into monero they can come back out they can

go through a bunch of different alt coins they can go into you know sketchy exchanges come out of sketchy exchanges there's all different techniques you can do um and they'll probably do things combined um but i would just appreciate if they didn't just send it straight from the seven addresses they're in right now into wasabi that would be fucking great because everyone would know well if you're not uh if you're not the binance hacker and you do want to use wasabi uh at bitcoin or restart the bitcoin-only.com website at 6102 bitcoin on twitter uh recently released a new guide it's a pretty good one so you guys we'll put that in the show now yeah this guy's great and his website's really good too bitcoin-only.com

it's obviously it's all it's only bitcoin content only um another news item today honey miner another stacking stats partner here at tales from the crypt they released their their mac software so any of you freaks out there with max that want to take advantage of honey miner uh to mine the the most profitable gpu mining uh yeah you mine shit coins and then they auto dump them and they pay you in satoshi's yes marat have you tried honey miner yet i haven't you should you should really try it um my girlfriend like the way she knows the bitcoin price is the amount of like the value of our satoshis that we've mined with honey miner it's just like a badass interface you've used it right i have used it it's very cool it's

really it's just like they gamified it and uh you're really doing you're gonna lose money doing it because it's you use more electricity than you get paid um but so why would i do it well because you know you're getting like kyc-less bitcoin um you're truly stacking sats on like a rolling continual basis so like i believe you added down downside pressure on that yes that's i was just getting there that's the best part you're literally doing like you're You're basically speculative attacking whatever the most profitable altcoin is at a given time. Yeah. And pumping the price of Bitcoin because you're buying little bits of Bitcoin with it.

It's funny you say it's not profitable right now. But yes, you get fresh Satoshis and stuff like that. But that made me think of TryLolly. A lot of people were talking on Twitter this week about using Lolly. And eventually, like a Bitcoin, hyper-Bitcoinization does happen. and people could basically be shopping for free right now. Mr. Hogle really likes them. Yeah, yeah, he loves them.

Did you see, like, Schmeagle or whatever got, like, a $125 reward from Overstock? I did not see that. Yeah, 2.5 million Satoshis. Wow. Talk about stacking sats while shopping. If you guys got any big trips planned, you're buying flights, staying at hotels, just use Lolli.

Lolli is pretty ridiculous. yeah uh that's pretty freaking crazy and just always just use wasabi afterwards when you withdraw from lolly use wasabi when you withdraw from cash app use wasabi when you withdraw from honey miner use wasabi make sure you have enough sats to meet the limit for the the uh the mixing protect your privacy yes um speaking of protecting your privacy samurai you've tested out their whirlpool how was it pretty great it's pretty great what was the experience like uh so you run like an app on your computer and you like pair it with your phone and then it does it does these so so wasabi does like these bigger mixes like uh 100 participants uh bigger amounts 0.1

samurai goes with like five participants with a smaller amount with the idea that you can then keep repeating it how many times you want but you can get like decent amount of privacy like quicker. It's just good to see more options and you know right now they like the plan is they don't have this set up yet but the plan is you know you'll be able to just spend it from your Samurai while on your phone and it'll already be mixed because like you're running the the actual mixing client on your computer or your noddle or something like that so you just you would pull out your samurai wallet you have your spending cash and it would already be ready for you be able to use

privately yeah so that interface I I think I'm most excited about the mobile to node interface and I just in general like I like like I want to see more companies yeah projects working on the mobile too yeah so speaking of that i've had experience a lot of experience with that over the weekend we were setting up the tftc.io um full node and lightning node i was able to use zap zap has their iphone app out and it's fucking incredible like like you said scan a qr code and you're able to control the node from your phone it was honestly like this weekend i was pretty busy but i had to set up channels in preparation for the site going live and i was just able on to go to open channel but you pierre bit refill have you guys reciprocate

and accept on the go it was insane and the ux is um the zap app in particular is is is better than any i've seen in this space and quite frankly like it's the most fun app i've used not even bitcoin related in quite a while with how easy they made it so shout out to jack mallers and team on that yeah i fucking love zap zap is awesome i this is the first time i ever got to see the mobile app because i'm on android it's like that's i haven't in this space usually android gets all the good stuff so well this is a new one for me yeah i'm glad to have this over you but you were experimenting with ab core over the weekend too yeah it takes a while to uh so you know to synchronize all right so let's talk about so for you freaks excited about it

i'm like at like 45 or 50 or something so we've talked about this on tftc before if you freaks don't know ab core is uh basically allows you to run bitcoin full nodes on android devices ud worthmeyer and uh bitcoin larry are working on it and why what put what pushed you to download there was something in particular okay so so so larry works on on green wallet which is block streams wallet green address uh that's like it's by far the best mobile wallet on iphone and it's like it's like up there with samurai on android um it's like this two of two multi-sig uh product where they have one key you have one key and there's a time lack and pays back to you so then they came out with ab core which is a separate android app that is core the most

recent version of core run on any android device that automatically has tor enabled um so so then it has so it displays a qr code for you and then you so you take one android device let's say like a leftover android device you have or like a cheap android tv for like 50 bucks whatever you install ab core on it then you scan it with your phone with green address and then your green address wallet is watch only use can use no it just verifies with your full node but the wallet is the multi-sig green address ah yeah you're using your own full node it's again run on an android phone or like a android tablet or something slowly but surely this stuff's getting built out this has been the best bear market fundamental wise ever i think this last week

in particular is evidence of that we have bitfinex followed by binance one week after the other and the price has gone through six thousand dollars so let's talk about price marad you're the chart were in the room right now what are you saying yeah i mean i totally agree with you um the market the market uh taking the tether fiasco and the binance hack and what in the span of two two and a half weeks in such a stride we went up we kept going extremely bullish as equities are falling too you know what as equities are falling too you know what they're saying in um in bear markets good news don't matter in bull markets bad news don't matter and i think that the fact that we went from 5.5100 to almost 6100 in essentially despite these news or rather in spite these news

makes me very bullish i i'm i'm short-term bullish and i'm long-term bullish it's pretty crazy right that it just keeps egg that are just powered right through both of both of that totally well it would be remiss of us if we didn't bring up our bet Matt and I are winning right now but I do think we should touch on we made our bet and you guys were using indicators that used information from blockchain.info

that threw off those indicators can you explain what was going on there yeah so some of our indicators that made us particularly bearish we've realized that we relied too much on blockchain.info data from what I hear is

Some of the heuristics that blockchain.info has been using for several years now, due to the fact that blockchain.info itself is not very popular anymore and their whole suite of products isn't as popular anymore, some of those heuristics don't give the correct adjusted volume anymore. It essentially overextends. Sometimes it gives higher values than is necessary. Sometimes it gives the lower values than is necessary. Luckily for us, Coinmetrics has come up with an alternative product of the same sort, which we believe is giving much more accurate signals. And we've switched to them since early March, and we've been very happy with the product so far. Let me be clear. Blockchain.info is both malicious and incompetent. Right.

And that is why their data sucks. Right. I wouldn't be surprised if five years from now they would essentially be completely irrelevant. You can't even look up a segwit address on blockchain.info. Disappointing. They don't exist. That's why we're using blockstream.info now. Yeah, or oxt.me. oxt.me as well.

But yeah, I think you guys are winning this third bet. You were pretty confident last time. No, I said I wasn't as confident about the previous one. I can't believe... I said this one is more even. I know, but originally we went to dinner where I bought you guys dinner for the previous bet. Yes.

Right? and very generous dinner right and and we were we were all drinking you weren't drinking with us right i was not and we agreed to uh to like a ridiculous you're like i'm done with dinners i've won too many dinners and we agreed to like this ridiculous bet where we're going to like you loser would have to take the others to fiji or something like that to bali to bali yeah and then the next morning i woke up and i was like that is just like way too you know outrageous extravagant like that'd be absolutely ridiculous like especially if we were to lose that yeah if yeah i would it was just it would have been in poor taste like in either way and then we switched

it to uh the nobu dinner right um but like just from those actions like you were pretty confident about it right you were like really confident about it it was like 3400 like it's so far away now i would like to retrade that if you guys win this one the current score would still be 2-1 in my favor because i did win two of them before that right no marty's winning yeah we'd be tied yeah marty but me against you matt would be two one the whole bear market was marty's fault and marty had just went on my side with the bet then it just would never would have happened that's that was the issue i'm sorry i'm sorry freaks for making the bear market uh drag on a little longer marty manipulates he manipulates the market i need to stack more sats i'm sorry guys he was

a hundred million dollar man the other day the rooters i fucking wish reuters reuters on april 2nd yeah were you uh were you watching the charge around that time i was yes what were you saying was it crazy uh yeah i mean it happened literally in like one and a half hours so yeah it was crazy it's the best that's the best part of bitcoin i like i from what i've read like it was deliberately planned to make it as sharp as possible like they even picked like 430 which is like the least volume during the day uh utc like around the world to just where the order books are the thinnest so you just pierce through them you know what i mean beautiful imagine what you know millions of people can do if that's what a few people can do i think like the people who are

surprised by what's been going on in the last month month and a half are are soon going to be surprised by even bigger moves in the upcoming bull market because i think it's going to get crazy i think like maybe i don't know if it's going to be this next cycle or the one after but maybe even possibly this cycle there's going to be a global scramble for bitcoin and it's just going to get market bought every day no one's going to sell like exactly there's going to be no bitcoin to sell that's gonna be fucking crazy i mean again we we've been cautioning not to hold your breath for the institutional money meme but it seems like we're getting a little closer it seems like so people like the people uh always like fought bitcoin saying that oh there's like

no cash flows behind it or whatever but that's actually a very an amazing thing because there's no cash flows it's not tied to anything like real and like money is valued purely psychologically right so if a big chunk of important people around the world decide that bitcoin is actually a thing it will skyrocket in like in a week yeah well we'll be here uh reporting if any of those big important rich people decide that bitcoin is a thing yeah i i'm just glad to have you back on our side so i mean we can't really make any can we it's impossible to make bets here because we're just all bullish we have to wait for the first bet to finish to make more but we can't compound bets i'd rather not yeah i mean i guess i'll come on the show if you guys want me here after the

next bet is uh over what was that august right yeah august august 1st august 1st yeah if the price is over if the price is over 3400 we win 3421 i'm losing that xbx price i'm losing that with like 99 probability essentially um yeah next topic that we have is a small one but funny one nonetheless uh talking about quote-unquote bitcoin competitors it came out this week that one person is in control or excuse me is uh responsible for 50 of the bitcoin cash transactions um whether this is to it doesn't look like it's to inflate the doesn't it just look yeah it just looks like it's a poor use of the blockchain yeah it's just transaction fees are non-existent so there's no reason to not just spam the blockchain with a bunch of content so they just they just do

it i think nick said like it cost them like 240 dollars in fees or something for the day to just like fill up the chain yeah so be aware but just and also like it's another reminder that if you're looking at low fee networks or no fee networks like they're going to obviously game their transaction counts because they can they can just send millions of transactions back and forth without paying any fees or paying minimal fees and first of all and that definitely comes with the cost because it comes to a cost to the to the node operators that have to to deal with all that additional data it's like that cost is pushed off and it's it's not actually no fee yeah and it highlights the fact that these systems the metrics can be gamed pretty pretty easily yeah and if and

if you yeah low fee networks basically like they make it seem um they value the short term over the long term long term it it'll it'll lead the chain to being absolutely fucked but short term it gives the appearance of of cheaper cheaper transactions and uh one thing to note is even with this one service spamming transactions like bitcoin cash still has like absolutely like even though they can gain bitcoin cash transactions they're not even bothering They're still way, way beneath Bitcoin's number of transactions. So that's pretty interesting. What are you looking up over there?

Looking up our sponsored shout-out for the week. That's it. That's all we have for topics. Let's riff on some stuff. We got the Bitcoin Rabbi's book here. We do have Bitcoin Rabbi's book. Shout-out to the Bitcoin Rabbi for sending us a couple books and signing them. pretty pumped to share these with uh with the youngins of my family i'm gonna keep mine in

condition and huddle the shit out of it yeah yeah maybe i'll buy some other ones to share you got the autographed one you know you can't i can't make it give an autographed one to a kid like that goes against my whole belief system so marad what do you think uh what are you most excited about over the next three months here um i think it's fair to say that we are in the early stages of the next bull cycle so i'm really excited for the price to finally be heading in the upward direction um personally the reason i'm super excited is because i was waiting all um i was waiting all bear market to finally move all of my assets into cryptocurrencies

because I don't like dealing with the fiat banks and the traditional banking system that much. But now being 100, genuinely, this is kind of a cliche, but I'm actually talking about my real life right now. Being 100% in control of my wealth and being able to send it anywhere, wherever I want without waiting for the weekend to be over or waiting for four hours to pass or whatever.

uh is just something that brings me great joy and bliss damn right that's awesome and i just sat down with judica chow from ledger x and she was explaining like just like the access to collateral for options desks like hers is is something that's unparalleled and again like i don't i feel like most people in the world do not fully grasp this most people in the world do not fully grasp bitcoin but this uh revolution in itself is huge totally there's a whole sort of slew of second and third order effects which like make finance more efficient make like industries more efficient etc but so i absolutely agree and like so we've had this discussion before between like censorship resistance and uh immutability uh for that

for those properties to exist like we need we need like privacy tools like wasabi and stuff like if If you can't use Bitcoin privately, then, you know, forget about sending on weekends. You might not even be able to send it anyway, right? For sure. That's all we have for topics this week. Just a little maintenance here. We launched a site this week and we're experimenting with some cool things. One of which is the ability for you freaks to purchase shout outs and sponsored quote unquote sponsorships of the podcast.

It's something we like to move to in the long term, hopefully, if it's possible. a user-supported model. This is the beginning steps. We had one freak buy a contribution this week, Pedro, and he said, value for value model. Nice. Listeners as producers of the show, I like it. And he shared a YouTube video of Adam Carey

sort of explaining what they're doing with the No Agenda podcast and their user-sponsored model. So I will put that in a link and shout-out to Pedro. Awesome. That's pretty badass, our first shout-out. First shout-out. um yeah we've got a few more sup freaks hats available on the site as well so you want to go to tftc.io slash merch we're almost out i think right almost out yes um yeah so it's been

a cool experience it's been fun like i said it's an mvp uh and we're going to build on it and create more reasons for you freaks to visit the site in the future i'm very excited about it it's it's looking pretty good it's a good start it's not perfect it's a good start what i like btc pay server man playing with that has been so much fun like being able to to sort of brand your own invoices has been cool dude the branded invoices is so fucking slick it's fucking badass and like marad was saying it really highlights the power of having control of your own money like i've connected my trezor to our btc pay server and i have full control of the money that's coming through our website which is crazy yeah it's pretty fucking

badass yeah um so again shout out to pedro for the shout out um definitely go check out the website marad do you have a last parting note for the freaks out there nothing specific today but i would say uh don't short this market anymore um i frankly i think the wisest thing to do from an investments or and trading standpoint is to be long biased here by all the dips i think all the dips have been getting bought very very quickly and will continue to do so um like don't short like a lot of people are short right now and it's going to uh be very very bad for them in my opinion did bitcoin tina get to you uh bitcoin tina did not get to me bitcoin tina was telling me to go long since 7 000 right um and like sooner or later of course when you're permabolish sooner

or later you're going to be correct that's my strategy today he's correct and for the next three years as i've told him he will be celebrating and he will be celebrated but um like i like to be a little bit more nimble and adaptable with my personal portfolio but it's time to be long now i have two questions do you think we're gonna fall below 5 000 before 8 000 the two scenarios that i'm looking at right now is we either we come to like 63 64 and stick there before moving even further up. Or we go to 5K and that will be the lowest we'll see.

Like around 5K. Around 5K. And my second thing is altcoins have been getting absolutely slaughtered. What are your feelings about that? I think the altcoins... So essentially, all altcoins underperformed Bitcoin

in the month of April. It's ridiculous. By a lot. Like Ethereum was down like 30% or something. It's actually absolutely. So two things I'll say here. It's crazy that Bitcoin, despite its massive size and being order or orders of magnitude bigger than than any altcoin, has outperformed in the month of April. But it shows two things. It shows I think it's the first evidence of my theory that the median IQ of the space cycle to cycle is increasing. People people are going to Bitcoin first and foremost. And second of all, and this is more on the speculative side for the traders out there. I think check the rank, the performance of all the altcoins versus Bitcoin in the month of April.

I think those that have underperformed Bitcoin the least are the ones being accumulated by, quote unquote, smart money right now. You heard it here. Check it out. Could it be the great finally Bitcoin pulling away from the rest of the pack? Could it be a return to the status quo? So do you think 2017, do you think that will ever have like an altcoin boom like 2017? I think investors and funds and trader strategy has to adapt. The easy life and the dream where you can buy like four shitcoins and just get rich in the span of two years is probably gone. You have to become a little bit more intelligent and a little bit sort of more focused to make money in this market.

um bitcoin will probably start dominating even more um as i've said a couple of times here and elsewhere i think um something like december where 100 shitcoins going 100x in one month is probably a thing of the past um i think there will be maybe like half a dozen altcoins that outperform like bottom cycle to the very very top but there will be fewer and far in between than in the past um i think bitcoin should be like the core part of your portfolio without a doubt and then uh like don't gamble too much on other things yeah no it's and again it's like what we're touching on earlier what what is the threshold at which there what is the point of no return um and like you said it does seem like the market is wising up uh with this this disconnection of

the prices in april in particular and more interestingly is the last five days uh sort disconnection from the equities markets as as they've been trembling and bitcoin has been been rising against them it's a very short term uh period to to benchmark those two markets against each other in particular but it is an observation nonetheless i mean i think i think like the the most important question in cryptocurrency in terms of like trying to make money is figuring out like how winner take all this market is going to be right and that's like something that's discussed almost every day by us it's discussed by all our friends and by all the people right so like it depends on how dominant you think bitcoin is going to be if it's going to take

95 of the market that's like one scenario right you're probably going to just go lever to bitcoin if it's going to be more like uh like parito style three or four juicy blockchains for the foreseeable future which is what i think is going to happen and like you you have like bitcoin at 70, number two at 20, number three at eight, number four at two, et cetera, right? If you have something like that, then you can make money with number two or number three, but it kind of depends on your view. I will say what I'm doing with my portfolio is, and this is not with the fund, but I can't talk about that, but this is with my own personal portfolio. I'm doing essentially bitcoin hold uh various sort of leveraged uh bitcoin future plays

and uh i'm doing a small decred hold and then i'm trading with the with the other sort of 35 to 40 percent thank you for sharing that we appreciate you transparency it's uh highly touted in this in this industry um like i personally i you know i don't think like altcoins are going anywhere um i don't think shit coins are going anywhere uh i think they will probably and be be around in different incarnations forever uh with some coming and most going and new ones coming and just always constantly with bitcoin just sitting on top um like in like a 90 90 a little bit higher than 90 type position the bigger bitcoin gets though the harder it is for a brand new altcoin

to even pretend that they can achieve something significant. Yeah, but they'll never be... The only time anybody has ever attempted to flip in Bitcoin is really Ethereum.

Like, every other time, it was like, my altcoin is the silver to Bitcoin's gold. And that was fueled by the ICO mini. Yeah, and they would, you know, yeah and they got like they got a little bit carried away about it yeah so like uh that probably won't happen that much anymore is what i don't think like three things i'll say like a lot of vcs and investors in the space they think that the best risk reward in is in the coins or or

tokens or crypto assets that haven't like that haven't been released yet i disagree i actually think that the best risk reward is in the assets that already exist because once again they're thinking about it in terms of tech like oh i'm going to find like uh the newest and greatest i'm going to find like the facebook to the myspaces right but this is totally wrong it's it's about like entrenched moneyness and that takes time time isn't something you can fake right and it time isn't something you can catch up to quickly right by definitionally two um i think you see like a lot of uh like uh heavy altcoin investors cling on cling and do their absolute best to try to amplify every single piece of bitcoin fud like oh like every little thing that

comes up you see people like emin ginsir and a couple of hedge fund managers without any other additional names but they always like make any teeny tiny problem or concern with bitcoin seem like a much bigger deal than it is and when you dig deeper you realize it's either an altcoin creator that's uh whose coin is about to be released or it's like a vc fund that's like that's like balls deep in safts that are completely illiquid or it's somebody who is simply um who's because here's the thing right like every hedge fund manager and frankly like i mean even i have to balance this with the strength of bitcoin to be completely frank with you every hedge fund manager vc or whatever their dream and something they dream about before they go to sleep is

catching is like bitcoin failing for some reason and them catching like the 10 000 x or 1000 x with its replacer but like i have to be honest like every day that passes it's less and less likely that's going to happen right because bitcoin is strong right and essentially like you will you will see continuation of this because anybody who manages money either a large sum of money for themselves or for other people or even frankly individual investors like their dream is to be the person who catches like those massive returns but the thing is i think those like those easy gains are probably gone and the last prediction like not prediction but kind of a view i will express is that i think all this all this like tokenomics all this like all the all the

ico all the dab bullshit is essentially gone even sort of the quote unquote normie vcs that i'm talking lately they're coming around to the idea that the narrative for the next market is probably going to be like store of value money store of value store of value centric right and um i think like that's what you should be focused on yeah those token economic never made any sense they all could just use money instead right they don't need a fucking token well ether's money now they just rebranded i think like for for like full transparency sake i think there will be like a couple of um like tokens kind of like numeraire or ogre whatever if they get huge volumes then like that acts as like a proxy for a cash flow kind of similar to an equity you know kind of

like a taxi medallion right work tokens they call them these days but um like just looking at the users right now it's still quite abysmal like theoretically there is a path towards uh making money there but i think like the best risk reward is once again in the sort of the store of value place yeah it's um no like you were saying like the churn is probably going to continue i think believe it was blockchain capital released a gif of basically the churn that's happened uh with bitcoin and all coins under the top 10 coins over the last 10 years and you see bitcoin standing strong as the strongest coin and the bottom nine uh of the top 10 sort of switching pretty pretty rapidly over the last decade so yeah like almost none of the last top 10 are back you know like in

the last cycle the top of the last cycle not even just the last cycle the cycle before that and the one before that as well um no but i agree as well i think this stuff is open source people are again just going to be attracted to the ability to to spin these these networks up and and attempt to to squeeze yield out of them um so i don't think they're going anywhere anytime soon but i do think that uh bitcoin's dominance is becoming more and more cemented per block yeah no pun intended absolutely pun definitely intended all that shit is just it's it's mostly a distraction yeah all right well that's all we have for this rabbit hole recap you get freaks got an extra 15 minutes this week shout out to our sponsors unchained uh and cash app and shout out to

our user sponsor pedro this week stay humble stack sets peace and love freaks