TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - Rabbit Hole Recap: Week of 2019.09.23

Episode Date: September 27, 2019

This week Marty and Matt discuss: - Lightning Vulnerability disclosed https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2019-September/002174.html - Maduro rumored to own bitcoin https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-26/venezuela-has-bitcoin-stash-and-doesn-t-know-what-to-do-with-it - In device address explorer coming to coldcard https://twitter.com/COLDCARDwallet/status/1177393853076320258?s=20 - Erlay BIP draft released https://tftc.io/martys-bent/issue-578/ - Fold joins the sats back party with Amazon support https://twitter.com/fold_app/status/1176843962528567296?s=20 - tThe "hashcrash" https://twitter.com/MartyBent/status/1176850968211668994 - ETH gas limit raised https://www.trustnodes.com/2019/09/14/miners-begin-raising-the-gas-limit-to-10-million Shoutout to our sponsors: Cash App. Head over to the App Store or Google Play Store, download cash.app and start #stackingsats today. Use the promo code: "stackingsats" to receive $5 and contribute $5 to OWLS Lacrosse you download the app. Unchained Capital. Head over to www.unchained-capital.com/vaults and checkout their 2-of-3 multisig vaults. If you need liquidity but don't want to sell your bitcoin, they offer easy access to loans using bitcoin as collateral. Collateral is always stored on-chain in dedicated multisig addresses with the option for you to hold a key, and your bitcoin is never rehypotheticated. Bull Bitcoin. Canadian freaks need to check out Bull Bitcoin (https://bullbitcoin.com/). Canada's only Bitcoin maximalist brokerage. Also, check out BitcoinOutlet.com for some of their dope swag if you're outside of Canada.

Can we just add zeros, though? You could just add zeros. I don't know. I thought we were recording before, anyway. We weren't. That would have been a good start. We're trying to, in our heads, figure out how many Satoshis are. There's 21 million Bitcoin.

How many sats are there? 100 million sats per Bitcoin. I think it's 2.1 billion. I think that's way off. Oh, yeah, that's got to be way off, right? That's way off, dude. We're, like, in the quintillions, I'm pretty sure. Oh, it's trillion.

Is it 2.1 trillion? that's right you're just putting zeros into your calculator right thousands millions billions trillions quintillions 2.1 quintillion it's not 2.1 trillion nope your boy was right this time arty math okay well we'll stick with bitcoin when we talk about total supply 21 million bitcoin what is up freaks welcome back to tales from the crypt you just uh walked into our mic check moment there i hit i hit record because it was funny because I owned Matt in a math problem for the first time ever. You used the calculator.

But I had it right in my head. I said quintillion before I checked on the calculator. You know, it's been a long time since I've messed up SATS conversion, so I had it coming to me. Hey, who knows? There's a good chance I got it wrong on the calculator, and I'm going to get corrected by a freak out there. So let me know.

Don't trust Verify. Right now, it's Friday. We just recorded an episode with Janine from Block Digest. That was an incredible hour and some change there with Janine. That was fun. That was badass. It was very badass. We're sitting at $8,031.35, according to the tftc.io ticker.

We're currently at block 596.866. And, hey, a word to TradeBlock out there. We've seen some of your representatives. We need an open API. We would love to use the TradeBlock XBX index on our ticker. We just need that free price API. Just, hey, just let us know. um you got anything to say to that matt like what do you think i mean they should you know

why wouldn't they they should be careful because we might have to come up with the tftc index the best index of all bitcoin this is true we could just start our own i do have uh experience in indexing financial products so maybe we'd make this happen what's the current sats per dollar uh sats percent it was like 126 when we were at baruch earlier today 12 600 sats per dollar right now yeah if i can steal yeah um 12 000 yeah 12 600 steal for sats we were under 10 000 for a while there so we still are no i'm saying sats sats per dollar yep um yeah we had a great movement hey matt and i've been together all day we were at brew college earlier this morning uh molding the minds of the youths of the world talking about bitcoin that was a little chaotic of a

of a presentation we're getting better though we were all over the place we were at state resistance we were at stacking sats yeah we used the block stream satellite we tested that out yeah we did uh we did a live sat node test uh shout out to the students at brew college this class in particular was very engaged more engaging than last semester yeah you've done it what four times now i've done it twice yeah i think it's my fourth or fifth time yeah it was uh it's always fun always fun shout out to to charles who runs that class great bitcoiner yeah i wish i had a professor are like that yeah yes dope professor um before we hop into topics we got a few topics to talk about this is what we're here for this week this is rabbit hole recapper here not to talk about

our lives but the topics of the bitcoin world but before we do that gonna give a shout out to our sponsors you already know all about them uh first up we have the cash app use the code stacking sats if you have not downloaded the cash cash app yet stacking sats s-t-a-c-k-i-n-g-s-a-t-s download the cash app use that promo code you're going to get five dollars five dollars is going to get out across and guess what you're going to use that five dollars you're going to be able to stack sass with it you're going to be able to buy bitcoin uh via the cash app and then once you have enough and you're comfortable taking your utxs into your own hand you're going to be able to send it off to a personal wallet uh and then you can also send money or excuse me bitcoin from a

personal wallet to the cash app and to sell if you need to and on top of that they have their program you get a personalized debit card you get a merchants uh they had nike uh on last weekend you could save 10 percent nike last weekend i like my coffee boost uh my whole foods boost and i used chipotle yesterday so use the code stacking sats get that five dollars get five dollars owls and start stacking sats today we got some new york helicopter background music flying over right now it's a beautiful day in new york city great fall day the weather is perfect it's a perfect day for a poem from our friends from bull bitcoin a caution yes a cautionary tale from bullbitcoin.com as bitcoin rebounds and things get exciting to newcomers

number go up sounds inviting they sign up to coinbase to investigate the chatter and are served up a hot steamy shit coin platter eos and ripple and be cash oh my the graveyard were stacked sats of noobs go to die a swing and a miss they didn't connect the diversified bundles are now fucking wrecked noobs don't deserve this their gains are on ice at least now they know hodling bitcoin will suffice so buy on bull bitcoin if you're in canada a no alts no noise and it's staying that way visit bullbitcoin.com to buy and spend bitcoin in canada or bitcoinoutlet.com anywhere in the world to grab some awesome swag uh and not look like a pleb matt's actually wearing some of their swag right now it's a pretty dope hat fucking awesome hat the bull

bitcoin guys like they were all over riga they were great hey if uh if this is really the end of bitcoin and bitcoin is going to fail i think you guys have have some uh a career in poetry if you want to get into it's a beautiful poem very very good prose very very catchy good rhymes good rhythm it's fun reading um so shout out to the bull bitcoin guys bullbitcoin.com if you're in canada go check them out if you're looking to stack sets and then finally we have our stall are friends at Unchained Capital. This episode is also brought to you by Unchained Capital. We talk a lot about multi-sig security

and Unchained offers multi-sig vaults for both individuals and businesses. Unchained's collaborative custody model is a great way to improve security, create redundancy, and reduce risk of single points of failure while also retaining control and sovereignty. Unchained also offers an integrated lending platform

with multi-sig vaults if you need liquidity but don't want to sell your Bitcoin. They offer access to loans and the Bitcoin as collateral. so collateral is always stored on chain it is dedicated in a dedicated multi-sig address with the option for you to hold a key so if you are taking a loan out you will have a key and whenever anything is moved you will know and your bitcoin is never re-hypothecated and on top of this the on-chain team is an incredible team of bitcoiners working on supporting multiple open source projects including slip 39 smart custody hermit and caravan go check them out if you don't

know uh what they are yet uh they're they're open sourcing their multi-sig solutions on top of a bunch of other things again slip 39 smart custody hermit and caravan uh we'll put those in the show notes check them out unchained-capital.com that's unchained-capital.com 2.1 quintillion satoshis that's a lot of sats i want i want all the sats i can't believe you thought it was billions i don't know where i was going it's been a long day man at least i didn't tell the kids the the the incorrect i think god you think correct numbers that would have been embarrassing it would have been you've had a long week man you've a long week of travels i mean we talked last week when we were remote you're in san diego i was here um retired i was traveling

the world dude yesterday we had a drink while handling private keys event and then afterwards we just drank heavily so that got me too and the birds won big win yeah no it's a fun event for you great event um shout out to you and evan and uh and josh josh and we had a lot of people helping ty helped a lot ty helped there was a bunch of other helpers it was just a good vibe overall you must not be named yeah he must not be named and uh no it was a good event uh i think a lot of people learned i definitely learned a lot i did my first hand up here uh pre-signed bitcoin transaction last night felt good partially signed partially signed partially signed i don't know i said pre-sign partially signed bitcoin transaction um felt good i feel like i grew a couple uh chest

pubes overnight yeah the cold card's easier than people realize i think you just kind of just like dive in and play around with it um just don't forget your pin we had one guy there who put in a pin and forgot his pin or like mistyped his pin twice in a row on the confirm and yeah and you can't wipe it so yeah don't forget your pin upon setup yeah make sure you remember your pin very important no but it's a great device it was very self-explanatory i think it was a success the event or i look forward to having many more yeah yeah and there's definitely uh a market out there people wanting to to learn how to use these products as well and i think hands-on experience I'm a very hands-on visual learner.

Me too. That's where it's at. Yeah. On that note, the cold card is, Rodolfo teased an upcoming update to it that will allow us to verify addresses directly on device without connecting it to a computer. So it's going to have a built-in address explorer.

Yeah. So yeah, the pull request is already in the repository. It's waiting to review. shout out to Hoddle Wave who's working on this part so yeah you'll be able to check your addresses completely offline yeah just right on the cold card screen you know you just have it connected to power

it's not connected to the computer and then you can yeah so you'll be able to do absolutely everything with just the SD card shuttle and the cold card screen yeah so again shout out to at Hoddle Wave on Twitter putting the team on his

back for this I'm looking at the demo now it looks pretty dope yeah it's badass that was actually another thing about last night that i liked a lot was uh using testnet for some reason testnet has always been foreign to me and i never used testnet i should use it more yeah and it actually makes a lot of sense it was really great with uh wasabi because we were using the coin join testnet is only two people per round and it's less threshold that's 0.01 t uh tbtc so yeah and um and yeah so the test net for your free set i've never used the test that's pretty cool when you use it and wasabi in particular when you uh use it it has to download all the filters so the test net has its own uh smaller faster blockchain um i guess

yeah i mean like it's like non-functioning but it's like barely used so yeah um the nice thing about wasabi is that you can just flip it up flip testnet on right uh right in the settings yeah yeah no then you just create multiple wallets within wasabi and mess around with them yeah it's a good model um i usually whenever i test something i just throw a real bitcoin in and just fuck around yeah that's quite reckless but it's been my go-to way as well but it makes you focus makes you focus um those chain code offices were insane yeah the the chain code view is uh it's probably one of the best in new york city yeah you did not you like i thought you oversold it but you actually undersold it you thought i oversold it yeah i mean you had such high

remarks from and i was like nah i can't be that nice and then i walked in it was insanely nice it's very nice they're uh they're doing well they're creating great software in a great environment yeah it was great to see james as well yeah james um they were great james was there hanging out chain code again shout out to chain code for the hospitality yeah super grateful yeah super grateful um but on to uh something we probably should touch on and we've been uh talking about for weeks now we've been waiting for this news to drop uh the the lightning vulnerability that was in the wild that uh rusty russell made everybody aware of about a month ago or three weeks ago at this point um he went on uh the lightning mailing list today and

officially released the vulnerability so it seems like people were able to create channels without funding them and then take satoshis from other sides of the channel yeah either not funding them fully or not funding them at all depending on the implementation yeah it seems pretty bad yeah it seems like a pretty bad one to be honest um yeah so i guess my understanding is with sea lightning uh it like didn't even check if it was the correct funding transaction um and then for lnd the issue was you could partially fund it not not fully uh not fully fund the channel and then i guess after you create that um fake channel you send money through it and then when you close out you get paid

the attacker gets paid so you can use it to drain a to drain a lightning wallet um the newest updates for all of the the three the three implementations c lightning and claire and lnd all have fixed this issue already so make sure if you haven't updated yet please update asap yeah so if you're on sea lightning you want to be on version 0.7.1 same with lnd version 0.7.1 and eclair version 0.3.1 yeah so the newest the newest version of each um and if you're on lnd there's a checker if you want to check to make sure all your channels are um they posted that on the lightning blog oh you can you can do that there's a checker so you can see if any of the currently open channels are vulnerable yeah okay and then you could abandon those channels

um what does this say about the state of lightning is this uh is this a catastrophic oversight no i think it's just i mean it's another reminder of why you know it's it's reckless right now to use very large amounts of money on it um you know people should still be cautious we're testing out a new technology uh it is is that a cop-out no i think we've said that this whole time like that's why it's on the second layer and not on layer one right um i mean i thought it was we even brought it up with jack when we had jack on the pod recently because i mean he's planning on putting a lot of money on lightning yeah yeah no it is i mean again yeah a stark reminder that this is early days luckily i mean it doesn't seem like it's severely at least i haven't heard any reports

of it severely affecting any individual or company yeah so they said it got exploited but they're not telling us specific examples of it being exploited yet at least maybe we'll find out more um you think maybe it was exploited by accident like somebody thought they funded the channel and then what i thought was interesting is so rusty works for blockstream so he was working on sea lightning he discovered the issue um then he reached out to the heads at lnd and eclair and they confirmed that they also had similar issues then they waited they they released the updates that fixed the issues then they waited four weeks to announce the limited disclosure, right?

Update your nodes, there's a problem. Oh, that was four weeks after they discovered it? Yeah. I didn't realize that. And then eight weeks later, they released... Today. Okay, so today is eight weeks from the initial realization of the bug in the wild.

Oh, no, no, no. So check this out. They knew about it. They released the new versions. Then they waited eight weeks before they said they were waiting for people to naturally upgrade. So they waited eight weeks after that, after they originally found out. Then they give people the limited disclosure. And then four weeks after that is today.

Is this responsible? It kind of makes sense. Because they were just hoping people were going to naturally upgrade. but without alerting potential attackers or something that there was an issue because they said once the limited disclosure went out they thought it was pretty simple for someone to figure out what was wrong at that point so they didn't disclose because it would be too obvious not enough people would be upgraded at that point so that's the rationalization um is that what how do you feel how does that make you feel is it are you okay with the load

from the the release while this long-standing bug had not been independently discovered and thus was unlikely to be discovered by a malicious party before being fixed it did provide an opportunity to test communications and methods of upgrade across the entire lightning ecosystem it's a good spin it's a good spin yeah it's i i it'll be interesting to see where discussion goes around it i'm not i think it you know it seems like it was handled relatively well so i mean it doesn't seem like a lot of people lost money but yeah it is uh it doesn't make you wonder well i mean they were watching to see if it got exploited you know they might have told people earlier than eight weeks if they saw someone exploiting it

right because they mentioned it at eight weeks and then someone exploited it remember and then they re re-alerted everyone they were like now it's actually been exploited so make sure you're upgraded yeah i did yeah so yeah i do remember that uh that second warning yeah the exploit it got exploited seven days after they revealed the existence of the cvs they have a full timeline on the all right so i mean this is something that should be expected right yeah but i think we kind of dodged a bullet on this that's what i was gonna say yeah like we dodged a bullet and that'd be pretty bad if and i get the question the line of questioning i'm trying to get down to is like are you okay with what you would and maybe i perceive as uh

subject experts making this decision on the fly for the rest of the network um i mean can you get down with that what with the the way that was fixed and handled yeah yeah i mean i don't think there's any great way of handling it it's interesting because with bitcoin layer one you're almost incentivized not to upgrade quickly right like everything's supposed to be backwards compatible you know what happens if one of the new updates introduces a bug or something but with lightning you got to make sure you're on top of it and you're constantly updating because it is so new and it's moving fast and it's a hot wallet yeah yeah no it's um i mean you're somebody who's been experimenting with it pretty

pretty aggressively yeah i mean that's an understatement but yeah both of us just in tftc in general yeah no and hopefully it gets to a point where where these catastrophic bugs these bullets that we just dodged are are fewer and way far between i mean jack said it we you know we work with bitcoin as it is you know it's but it's already a high risk thing um and there's plenty of people that have you know way more than they should have like on bitmex and binance and all these exchanges like trading bullshit like you might as well just risk it on lightning instead and experiment and help bootstrap the network that's my view right yeah no that is our view That's our view here at TFTC.

That's why we're experimenting with lightning, spinning up nodes, providing liquidity. I mean, we weren't harmed by this bug, were we? It doesn't look like it. Yeah. Grateful for that. Yeah. Be aware. This bug was out there.

It seems to have been patched. Well, what's awesome is Noddle ships their updates super quick. Yeah, they're really on top of it. it was updated really early yeah um on to uh on to brighter topics it's being rumored that nicholas maduro is uh is hoarding bitcoins did i say brighter topic yeah yeah you did i'm kidding is this bullish or bearish marty i don't know i don't know i'm actually really conflicted if you freaks have not done so already i highly recommend you check out the most recent episode uh 103 with um mauricio de bartolomeo i can't say bartolomeo bartolomeo um and adam reads

mauricio i'm so i just butchered your name i'm actually going to fix that 21 21 30 yeah so if you haven't checked out the episode i recorded with mauricio and adam from leaden.io uh we dove deep into the current situation uh in venezuela particularly how venezuelans are interacting with bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies including stable coins and the u.s dollar and how they're transporting it and whatnot so if you're interested to see how bitcoin is being uh used in venezuela i highly recommend you check out that episode mauricio's had his boots on the ground and his finger on the pulse of what's going on down there and it's pretty crazy to see and i was actually going to wait till next week to post the episode but uh

yesterday bloomberg posted an article uh basically saying that uh there are rumors swirling that that maduro has so much cryptocurrency on his balance sheet that he doesn't know what to do with it i think that's what the headline was and so that uh people started uh speculating about that on twitter and so i felt compelled to post the episode and in the episode mauricio describes how basically some of madora's thugs are forcing people to buy bitcoin via local bitcoins for the madora regime they'll basically find some of that blackmail on and be like hey here's some bolivars that we just printed go to local bitcoins and send them to this address so just a roundabout way to make it look like there's natural p2p exchange happening on local bitcoins in venezuela

but in fact those people are proxies for the medora regime and then due to the sanctions of the u.s government that are currently on venezuela venezuela can't access the traditional financial system to interact with the global economy so they're taking that bitcoin and buying medical supplies and other goods from countries like russia and china i believe um so that's what from from mauricio's mouth to my ears it's he says it's happening in venezuela it seems like bloomberg is starting to corroborate this story and it seems like we have nation states holding bitcoin yeah i mean well first off i've only listened to the first half of that episode i think you released it yesterday so i did not get to that part yet so i'm excited to

listen to that at least uh the first half is very good um i mean it was open secret that maduro and the venezuelans were accumulating bitcoin uh they have very cheap energy prices they are sanctioned uh you should expect most of these especially the sanctioned states the pariah states to start accumulating first uh it's also very ideal currency for dictators in general um for their personal stashes uh it's just inevitable it's neither bullish nor bearish it's inevitable and if for bitcoin bitcoin's value prop is that no one can be blocked you know that no one can be censored and as soon as in order for like refugees to be able to use it in order for disenfranchised people to be able to use it and not get blocked like tyrants get away with using

it i agree but i actually will push back a little bit in regards to whether this is bullish or bearish like it really depends on what the reaction of the i guess the un states is to to this uh affront to the sanctions right like if they see bitcoin as a threat to their ability to sanction and then therefore try to throw the baby out with the bath water that could be short to medium term to steel man that uh i mean i think a lot of people would say that that maduro owning bitcoin was already priced in you know if the halving is priced in then surely surely maduro is priced in surely the uh the clamp down on maduro is oh on that note the freaks may have noticed that the price did fall uh a decent amount uh recently right before

this post so maybe it could have been there could have been some leaks there could have been some leaks there's rumors of sec action coming down towards the end of the month yeah i mean i had a lot of i think to us we're just like there was that ponzi scheme we don't try i don't try and like put a reason on every drop or pump it's it's usually just bitcoin being bitcoin but i forget that a lot of people like the first thing they do when they listen to this week's rhrs they're gonna be like like why did the bitcoin die like i got a bunch of texts from some of my friends you know that were like what's wrong with the bit like is everything okay the bit dude you hear about the hash crash man the hash crash crash dude that sounds like that sounds like a hangover meal

at denny's or something like that the hash crash all right so let's talk about the hash crash first let's not focus on price let's focus on hash rate uh the hash crash in quotation yeah um so yeah block explorers and uh data providers online like blockchain ourselves included tftc.io actually had good timing with this because we talked about how the hash rate was measured last week yeah um yeah yeah so if you go back and listen to last week's episode we explain it but this week was a great example in the variance of block time intervals and how that can affect reported hash rate on some of these websites uh so what happened we had a slew of long blocks i believe there was like a 75 minute a block that took 75 minutes to mine and uh that is sort of a

two sigma event it's not it happens once or twice a year um but because of that block or i don't know if it was a 75 minute block but whatever there was a few slow blocks in a row that that made the hash rate made the hash rate measurements look low yes and then um and then within a day the blocks had adjusted they were coming in normally and hash rate is now being reported back to where it was earlier in this week but yeah it just highlights that there's like you really have to take into consideration how these data providers are measuring hash rate like for example if you went to peter willa's uh site i think nick carter pointed out he uses like a i believe like a seven day window right seven day window yeah so it's like blockchain.info uses 12

to 12 or something yeah like yeah exactly 24 hour window um so some data providers have more smooth out data but don't freak out the the well the proof of stake shills came out of the woodwork and they were like bitcoin is dying it's under attack apparently amen was saying stuff i can't see it yeah i'm blocked as well but but i've heard through the grapevine that that was the case yeah fuck that dude um but yeah not just so just so you freaks know yeah finding a block is probabilistic so it's not going to come in every 10 minutes it's a poison distribution yes um and uh yeah yeah and and and then the hash rate and hash rate measurement isn't an exact science you know it's a estimate and depending on how you do it you can get that's why if you look at like

blockchain.info's hash rate chart and stuff it's it's like looks like wild volatility up and down yeah because it's not smooth it's not averages even just like looking at tftc throughout the day i'll just like look up and see the ticker and it'll just be completely different than where it was like a couple hours ago yeah we got to get that smooth we do dj i know you're listening put it in the notes um speaking of notes we've got uh an update on early early we touched on earlier in the summer recording an episode with one of the co uh creators co-contributors co-creators of early uh gleb nelmenko uh if you want to learn about early in depth go check that episode out uh but basically early is a messaging a new would be a new messaging protocol uh that

nodes would use to send and receive transaction data between each other and this would severely severely reduce uh bandwidth um requirements for nodes i believe we were pointing out earlier in baruch uh right now if you're connected to 24 peers on average you're going to consume about 18 gigabytes of bandwidth over the course of a month in early simulations if it is as good as it is in the in the test that would be reduced from again 18 gigabytes down to below one gigabyte per month connected to 24 peers so severely reduces the the bandwidth requirements to run a node which makes it easier for people in parts of the world with worse off internet connections to to run nodes and um yeah so it's good for decentralization overall and yesterday

or two days ago at this point i believe uh peter willa and gleb uh dropped an official bip for early um it's not completely fleshed out yet they don't know how it's going to get implemented they've only have a beta prototype uh right now but the the ball is moving forward with early it doesn't break consensus so there's no it's p2p yeah so it'll be there'd be no fork no yeah it's uh completely opt-in backward compatible um but yeah again we strive for an ideal and these are the non-flashy uh lunch pail gritty changes to the network that that probably won't get a lot of uh a lot of coverage and in a lot of places you won't see people screaming about it on twitter as a great innovation but it does uh seem like it would be a huge boon

to making the system more robust than it is now and the trade-off was a slight worse latency right yeah but even that that trade-off negligible right it's negligible but that trade-off may even lead to better privacy i believe too interesting but yet obviously the more peers the better lower bandwidth the better um this will help with stuff like eclipse attacks too yes yeah i wonder if it helps it kind of makes sense in my my brain that it would help in that other attack that was like the isp the arabic attack yeah definitely more peers the better yeah no the lebanite uh in the episode mcleb he he's i think he said that uh specifically Yeah, it wouldn't be perfect, but it would help.

Yeah. So, yeah, again, that bips out. If any of you freaks are capable of helping test that, check it out. We'll put the GitHub, excuse me, the link to the GitHub repository in the notes. Check it out. Review it. See what's going on. Speaking of things, dropping this week, we have another stacking sats app that dropped this week.

The waiting list is open at least. and it's going to allow you to basically shop at Amazon and get sets back. The Fold app launched their new app. They have Amazon support. Amazon support. Massive. They've created a quasi-VPN for shopping.

Yeah, they're trying to be more privacy-focused. So you want to jump into that? Well, they buy a gift card, essentially, I guess, like a store credit. So the store only sees that it's Fold who bought whatever you bought and fold i guess fold sees yeah but oh no no you said but your payment net network only sees fold that was it that's the other side yeah right so they on your like credit card bill or whatever they use debit card it would show payment to fold and then at the retailer would show payment from

fold it's my understanding yeah and yeah so it's sats back it's just another addition to sats back it's good to see i they're in early early access right now i think there's like a wait list do they drop it yet i think they drop it today the actual that that support gets added today because before you had to pay through bitcoin to use fold and you got sats back when you paid with bitcoin now you can also pay with fiat yeah they're adding fiat capabilities like amazon uber starbucks big names yeah big names shout out to that team i look i'm big big fan of will over their fold um again like it's uh just getting products out there more products in people's hands more useful products in people's hands turning bitcoin turning sats into the standard

uh loyalty point system would be like absolutely massive like imagine imagine the sats the amount of sats back being paid every day being more than the actual block reward like you would just because most miners sell right away right that's the outstanding philosophies or theory so most miners sell right away to cover their expenses rent labor taxes insurance overhead yeah so if we could negate their sell pressure with just constant sats back that'd be pretty crazy and it's just a good way for people to get kyc for your bitcoin or kyc light in the words of janine kyc light i like that term yeah uh kyc light for you freaks that don't know our services where you can use pseudonyms and bunk data and also get access to bitcoin that reminds me we

should do a free uh bisque show free best show if you haven't tried bisque yet you should consider downloading it and giving it a spin yeah our boy pedro was in our ear last night about uh shilling shilling bisque i mean bisque needs some more love and the bisque so bisque is a decentralized exchange um that you like everyone runs a node on their computer and it is peer-to-peer and you can go from fiat to to bitcoin yeah and it's global because it's peer-to-peer it's global and they also like if you want to contribute to it they have a dow um and with the best token yeah with the best token yeah are you shilling tokens on that no I'm definitely not shilling the token,

but it seems like it's, I guess, kind of kosher. So I haven't really looked into it. Yeah. But the actual software seems legit. The only issue is that there's not that much liquidity, which means people don't have outstanding buy and sell orders. Yeah. We should talk to Manfred.

So the more people that use it, the better it gets. It's like CoinJoin. Is Manfred the guy behind BISC? Right? I know Wiz is involved. yeah um we should get them on the podcast i think you might be right yeah um no yeah check i mean hand up i haven't checked out that's good i need i installed it once and there was like no liquidity and then i just never used it again that's a big knock but i will probably how do you i'm gonna i'm

gonna i'm gonna reinstall it and i can see bisque being one of the situation open order and it's bisque is one of those products though it was like bridge fi like we were talking about this uh baruch today it's like bridge five for the hong kong protesters that they did actually download it when they actually needed it bisque has proven to be that product for local bitcoins and local bitcoins implemented kyc aml you saw bisque's volume go up considerably yeah i mean interestingly enough bisque's big volume is in altcoins like specifically monero to bitcoin um and that was mostly i would say because shapeshift shut down or shapeshift added kyc no one wants to buy monero with kyc yeah um yeah but i'm thinking as uh as the constraints of kyc

aml or maybe if trump gets pissed at maduro and tries to uh tries to blackball bitcoin we'll all be moving to bisque anyway yeah i mean i think that's why things like bisque are super important yeah exactly that's the point and even and things like even hodl hodl which is which is centralized but uh doesn't use kyc and is uh peer-to-peer and uh non-custodial yeah um yeah so go check out bisque if you haven't already i should probably give it a whirl too um that's a big winner just try it out and the huddle huddle guys like open source their whole business so hopefully they'll be like competitors other little centralized p2p shops yeah the huddle huddles dope roman and uh and roman and uh max excuse me max in particular i think he

he actually dropped like a new video series podcast he has a cool little video at yakimo um the checkout was a good discussion i i caught uh i caught that a couple weeks ago oh that's awesome i gotta check that out yeah um the other thing that was interesting is we didn't talk about but Casa released their full like security. They like open sourced all their security decisions. Yeah. And the reasoning for them and what decisions they, why they didn't make certain decisions,

why they made other decisions, which I thought was pretty awesome. Yeah. No, it's a collaborative nature coming out and just, Hey, here's why we did this. It helped drive innovation in the space.

And yeah, the more the merrier, like the more people are uh sort of sharing these ideas and this adversarial thinking the better i mean that's like one thing i learned uh last night like with our conversation like with janine today it's like so many facets of of your opsec and your privacy are go overlooked like you there's so much to take into consideration uh if you want to if you want to do this truly privately and sovereign yeah i mean that address you sent a text you know you sent a text message with the bitcoin address like three years ago it could link your whole stash yeah fucked yeah yeah watch it that's

episode is going to drop on tuesday really great episode um we got a last topic here your favorite the eth gas limit was uh the miners which is their block size right yeah it's the same thing as the block size yeah so the ethereum uh gas limit was uh was raised to believe 10 million or something like that 10 million um what does that mean no idea no i'm kidding um it means that they're bigger blocks basically i believe um 10 million gas is the limit yeah 10 million gas but And that's a decision that's decided by miners. It was at 8 million before. Yes.

So they raised it 25%. 25%. But the reason it's on the list is the governance of how this happened. It was like, no. Yeah, the top three pools just decided fees were high. We're going to raise the limit. Yeah. And they just raised it.

No, it's like a learning moment. Difference between Bitcoin and Ethereum. ethereum the miners decide decide like the community has uh allocated that decision to the miners and they decide to raise the gas limit so that means that there's more potential data in each block correct yeah so like they just made an ethereum note even harder to fucking run yeah it's already super difficult thinking furious bills just went up yeah yeah absolutely Furious and Fura, watch out. Calling the minors, and pull.

And then, I mean, the fees are still pretty high anyway, even with the gas limit increased. What's been going on? There's been like Ponzi's, right? That's been like the fair play or something like that? Fair win. It's just interesting that, like, I'm glad, but it's a little bit ironic, or a lot a bit ironic,

is like now high fees are like unavoidable and good thing is like the under is like they finally that's finally the understanding but it's because ethereum fees are so fucking high right now they're trying to trot out that like yeah because i believe ethereum has collected more fees than bitcoin ethereum miners have collected more fees than bitcoin miners or at least at one point they did like the last week or two yes and pointing to that is is ethereum Yeah, Fairwind is the number one. Being better, but I think you have to take into consideration the economic density that's being pushed through per fee.

Right now, it's $0.03 a transaction. That's not bad. Seven Gui. Gui or way? Gui, G-W-E-I. I'm so lost, to be honest. Okay. Yeah, but Fairwind's the most used.

But whatever. that's just crazy that they can just i don't know arbitrarily raise it it would suck to be running an ethereum node that's all yeah um and like when when did they plan on transitioning like is is it still january is it still early january yeah it's like are the miners just trying to get as much money as possible before that's like the weird dynamic right get closed off why would the miners be fine with going to proof of stake yeah we shall see they might as well just keep mining i don't know it should be interesting i guess we can watch it unfold yeah we'll uh we'll see if i'll be adding to that thread maybe my thread will come to an end

i won't be able to post in that uh you think your thread will finally end it's going on for two years plus now your uh your eth your what your second what do we call it second system eth has second system syndrome yeah i would argue your second system second system thread well it's not even like that that thread was based off of the scene to labs uh it's basically the reverse lindy like so oh right everybody likes to talk about lindy effect and stuff like that but there's also i don't even know if it's called direct or excuse me reverse lindy but uh the the concept is that if you uh you plan a project and you set a due date and you do not hit that due date the first time you can extend that project like 50 of the time into the future

and then at that point if you don't hit your due date you can extend it like something like 70 into the future and once you start pushing it off you're fucked exactly once you start pushing the the due date or the completion date of the project off uh it's gonna it's the longer you wait the longer you will be expected to wait that is the quote from the book um and that's what i believe the transition to proof of stake will look like for ethereum i believe when they originally marketed before they even launched a they wanted to transition within 18 months yeah they were way off yeah they've been off well the whole point was like you get in on the pre-mine and then you never get diluted yeah like didn't vitalik famously say like we'll never go over 100 million

yes yes he's famous he said that i famously also said that uh internet the internet's digital currency is not workable if there are five cent fees yeah there you go um there's actually a good segue into our final topic i thought that was our final topic but we forgot to put this on the list officially but i remember we talked about it before binance launching official staking services yeah yeah that was this was i mean it seems obvious like if you have proof of stake exchanges are going to become the dominant stakers because people don't they exchanges can offer easier staking they can even offer higher rewards um and and the exchanges want it because they they'll subsidize it because they just want you on their platform they want you to

trade and use their other services so why would you want your chain secured by like the most vulnerable organizations like exchanges already have too much influence um this just gives them even more influence they become your dominant validators at the same exact time and binance is just doing exactly what one would expect and you can coinbase is moving that way too now coinbase is offering staking this is actually one of your most famous twitter threads your your thread of exchange staking yeah dude i've been going after proof of stake with you for a long fucking time and they just refused to launch it so it's yeah it's tight so like now we're like like binance obviously doesn't let you stake eth because eth isn't proof of stake yet but they i think they

have like eight chains that you can stake now you all you have to do is just move them into your binance account like cz tweeted out he was like you literally have to do nothing and we just give you free money that's that's the way the world works it's that easy people it's that easy i just don't it seems unavoidable they say they'll use you know trustless pools and trust minimized pools and stuff like that but i think everyone's just gonna use the fucking exchanges we already have problems with people keeping bitcoin on exchanges and they don't even get stake benefits from them yeah it's uh again it's too and again the economy is a scale that come with exchange staking are unavoidable the etfs are gonna stake right like imagine like a staking

etf that would be like a juggernaut they would have so much influence is that the way the world's gonna go well first they have to actually acquire at least approve a state yeah that too yes we'll see we'll see we'll see we shall see we'll be here to talk about it we will they deserved as much fun as as possible this episode after what they did with the with the hash crash so that's true yeah proof of stake it's environmentally friendly and that's about it right it's not environmentally friendly i know go read your truth coin.info people it's just as expensive capital uh destroying as proof of work capital yeah proof of work is amazing proof of the world it's beautiful we got to explain proof of work to uh proof of work is green yeah how'd the end

how'd the end the uh the college visit today with uh with the bitcoin mining isn't bad for the environment spiel yeah that was completely off tangent no one brought it up i had to bring last semester someone brought it up there was like an eth head in the crowd and they they raised their hand they're like why don't you care about the environment and marty just got triggered but this time no one mentioned it at all and just like right before the class ended he was like wait wait wait i need to go on an energy rant just in case like anyone ever hears about anything bad about energy and bitcoin and he just went on around you need to be armed with this with this rhetoric all right not rhetoric this logic um ah is that a 40 and slip there um i'm tired dude it's

been a long week it's been a great week of content great uh two weeks of content yeah dude hustling you're about to record right after this too got travis cling coming through um yeah about to sit down with him thank you freaks for for for joining us for all your support for buying the t-shirts if you guys want some merch merch is still there tftc.io slash merch um subscribe to the youtube channel let us know uh what you're thinking any topics you want to talk touch on let us know how we're doing you got anything matt love you freaks stay humble stack sets peace and love