TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - Tales from the Crypt #106: Aleks Svetski

Episode Date: October 8, 2019

Join Marty and Matt as they sit down with Aleks Svetski, founder of Amber, to discuss: - The latest Amber updates - Building out a product road map and prioritizing - Citadels - Separation of money and state - Hypothetical paths to a post-bitcoinization world - much more Shoutout to this week's sponsors, Cash App. Cash App. Head over to the App Store or Google Play Store, download cash.app and start #stackingsats today. Use the promo code: "stackingsats" to receive $5 and contribute $5 to OWLS Lacrosse you download the app. Casa. Use promo code “TFTC” to get up to $250 off your Casa membership … or hit their team up [e-mail] for a free demo, or to put them to the test with your hardest OpSec questions! Subscribe to our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtdbWsnfA08KhSUO4amVLaQ?view_as=subscriber Contribute to the show: https://tftc.io/contribute/

well hey there freaks it's your boy marty here to introduce this week's episode with alex fetsky alex was in new york city for the first time ever so we swung by williamsburg matt and i joined him to get an update on amber and uh to talk about the separation of money and state was a very interesting conversation this conversation was brought to you by the cash app if you freaks uh have not downloaded the cash app yet you're listening to this podcast what the hell are you waiting for you to do it now use the code stacking sats that's one word s-t-a-c-k-i-n-g-s-a-t-s a little bit of a mouthful but it's worth it you're going to get five dollars five dollars going to go to owls lacrosse charity very near and dear to our hearts based out of chicago helping young

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their boost partners so always check up on that make sure you download the app use the code stacking sats and try out the cash app it's a great product again i use it every day uh this episode is also brought to you by casa casa dropping some hot news today for you freaks who don't know already they dropped the casa node 2 it's a faster smoother bitcoin lightning experience running with a faster processor on the raspberry pi 4 with four gigabytes of ram and a one terabyte ssd all packaged in a gorgeous new case similar in size to the original casa node and this comes with your gold membership i believe they've upped the gold membership with the casa 2 casa 2 to 399 but if you are an existing casa member you'll be able to maintain your 300 price

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drop the new hot node today uh we'll definitely be talking about that more on rabbit hole recap on thursday um shout out to casa and cash app i hope you guys enjoy this episode with alex fetsky i know we always have a great time sitting down with alex and i think we had a great conversation so enjoy what is up freaks welcome back to tales from the crypt it's your boy marty bent here with a belly full of coffee on a monday afternoon uh don't forget shake shack don't forget shake shack that's true belly full of shake shake shack as well um you heard our guest matt odell's with us as well but we're sitting down again with alex vetsby for their second time in like three or four

months now yeah i know right shit i can't get enough of you guys we saw we saw each other in san francisco and now uh alex is rolling through town he asked uh if we could help him break his shake shack uh cherry so we did that it was his it's his first time in new york first time in new york first time in new york first time shake shack first what else is the first i don't know first time in time square which i warned you not to go what are your thoughts on time square i got to see the empire boys i felt really cool just watching them like do burnouts in the middle of the street and shit i've never heard of the empire i've never heard of the empire boys yeah me neither it sounded like a crew we should be worried about though yeah sounds like shit corners

basically did they start singing doo-wop at any point it sounds like a 50s doo-wop crew i i must admit a couple of the cars like were really fucking pretty hot there was like a mad um srt dodge challenger and he just like fucking tore up the street um it's kind of cool but anyway probably a cop all the undercover cops are in dodge challengers be wary of the challengers on on the jersey chargers that's what it is the challenge is such a sexy car fuck i love that think um yeah dude monday monday afternoon rip here we've been we've been monday it's monday right yeah traveling i'll do that to you just throws time all for a loop i've been in six time zones in the last two weeks i don't know where the fuck i am yeah because you were just at crypto

springs right how was that i was in crypto springs crypto springs was um very palm springy um i don't know i i think palm springs is an interesting place it feels like the kind of place you go to like die um it's like really go to die like it's uh i don't it feels really depressing man i was retirement community right yeah basically it was like i made the mistake of like booking an airbnb for an extra night or two actually i ended up booking an extra two nights because i just didn't know like what was going to happen after crypto springs because in riga everyone fucking hung out for a while yeah you don't want to leave right exactly regal was fucking awesome and then like i hung out in palm springs for the extra two nights and i was like why did i do this like

but i mean other than that the the conference was okay like it wasn't a it wasn't as good as rega i think rega was a hell of a lot more fun um but it was it was cool yeah there was there was a good crew of bitcoiners there how's uh how things been going on amber i guess that's why you're on the road right that is why i'm chilling amber you got the amber dot app shirt on right now indeed my um my bitcoin not shitcoin shirt actually i'm gonna get you boys one um but i was um i was actually it says bitcoin not shitcoin on the back of his shirt indeed yeah for our listeners yep i i just flashed the boys my ass so they could see um i was at a i was at a cafe last night and um i went and had some dinner and it was at like this health bar thing where it's

called like be human or whatever it is um anyway one of the guys comes up to me is like um oh cool shirt man like he was just some like some noob guy and he's like oh you know i've heard about this bitcoin thing he's like what's amber and i started explaining to him what it does and he's like oh can i download it and i was like unfortunately you can't and um and as we were talking i got him to buy some fucking bitcoin cash app literally so easy dude it was great and i was like do you have cash app and he's like yeah i got cash very uh very uh high touch there high touch rate one touch one conversion dude it was um fucking closed him on the spot and then i told him i said every day i said now i said it was a sunday but i said every wednesday just come

on here and buy 20 bucks and i said in five years time you'll fucking remember what uh what was the demo this guy was he a younger guy he was a younger guy yeah he was just like working as a server and behind the thing and he just came up to me he's like oh cool shirt man so so it was the bitcoin not shit coin shirt that got his attention and then closed the deal bought him some bitcoin on cash app fucking it's pretty jack dorsey owes me a fucking commission you couldn't even you couldn't even show your own product properly because you were in australia i know but you know what i did it for the cause right fact any uh any bitcoin buy pressure is good buy pressure indeed so anytime you're convincing somebody that to dca at 30 bucks a week is perfect hell yeah

that's the best way to learn too if you're if you are uh like a cashier or server at a restaurant investing can be it was really cool now and i grabbed his phone i opened up like some bitcoin articles i actually sent him to you guys i was like listen to this podcast read this article you're welcome um and it was it felt really good i walked out of there i was like one more that'd be funny if he's listening to this episode right now i know right what's up man i forgot his name now no need to dox him he knows who he is yeah he knows who he is if you're listening we know you're listening um yeah dude so what's been going on in amber what uh what's changed since we last talked in san francisco whoa so since we last talked we've um we've we've

enabled much smoother bitcoin withdrawals thank you matt beautiful yep matt matt's um matt's gonna be our advisors i kept poking him about the withdrawals so that that was the thing right like well we were doing withdrawals manually um so so people would have to request it in the um in the support thing um and then they'd need to give us a bitcoin address and then we would do it so now you can just whitelist a bitcoin address in there and you can process a withdrawal we do it through like a separate pooled fund so that way we're able to keep everything still in 100 percent cold storage and then we just manage our own separate float that's in a multi-sig and then we release the funds from there how was building that uh part of the product it wasn't too bad it

was it was a bit clunky in the beginning um and then we because i i just it's it's really hard getting a good multi-sig um you know product that you can use especially when you're mobile and stuff like that and um anyway we um we figured it out and it works yeah customers happy customers way happier withdrawals were happening way faster but but do you know what it is it's just one of those things where the loudest customers are generally it's it's the it's the downside of the intolerant minority right so like 99 of our customers just leave the bitcoin on there because they're noobs it's the first time they've done it they don't have their own wallet they don't do any of that sort of stuff and that's fine when they're at the early stage and then you know we try and

sort of nurture them and teach them and all this sort of stuff and you know and i hope at some point they will just move that bitcoin you know into a wasabi or something and then push it into their own ledger or cold card or whatever but um the majority of customers just leave it on there you know um it's a small subset of customers who want to withdraw and they're always the loudest ones and um we we did a withdrawal for for a guy the other day and we're always withdrawing on like the lowest sats per byte and it must have just been maybe like a little peak moment of thing on it it took about a day or two for the for his transaction to go through and straight away on um on the support thing you're fucking scammers you stole my money and it was over about like

80 bucks or something i was like the biggest exist i know right he was like you guys should be reported to the australian authorities like well you've stolen my money well something you got to take into consideration as a company is the ux of like the actual blockchain like today we were just talking about earlier of the block that took two hours for mine yeah yeah so like yeah but bitcoin is just scarred right we've had so many bad experiences yeah that uh i mean not your keys not your coins right if i was using if i was using amber i would have been heckling you all the fucking time until the draws got back yeah well i mean the thing is like which i actually did and i wasn't even using indeed indeed that means you're a true bitcoin but um look what we're going

to do down the track is allow people to like set up even like an auto withdrawal so that way yeah because like again like i'm gonna i'm gonna state a pompism here it's all about automation there you go i think it's better for you right it is it is because then we can because my whole game here with amber is to build like a really lean team lean product automate as many of the functions as possible so people can sort of automate their um so initially automate their path into bitcoin um and then as they as they enter their path into become automate their ability to become self-sovereign so it's sort of you know they get in the system and you know how do you how do you prioritize that feature set like well it's um right now so the next big

feature release is going to be um an update to our order execution engine so the ability to place orders instantly so at the moment we batch orders once a day and it pisses some people off Because when you want to do a one-off order, it doesn't go through until about 2 o'clock or 3 o'clock, whatever it is. So all the purchases go through in a batch? Correct, yeah. It's just the way we've built the product because we built it for recurring first. And then one-off top-ups were just like a secondary feature. And obviously, people just want to just buy the dip, right?

Because everyone thinks they know when the dip is. I tell everyone, I'm like, it doesn't actually fucking matter because you don't have a crystal ball. so whether you buy the shit at two o'clock on the day or at 10 a.m like when you think the dip is on you actually don't fucking know so half the time one o'clock will have actually been a better time to buy yeah that delay can work out in your favor correct as well as the amount of times it has it's not even funny like the amount of times i've gone like we've gone to run out our batch and the batch has run like literally at a fucking like one of those wick down candles and then all of a sudden people are cheering because oh you know i'm stacking stats and then sometimes it's it's done

it and the wick's been the opposite way and they're like oh you know you bought it the wrong time it's like fucking just shut up and just stack that's it like it's so you're trying to fix that that small correct so that that'll make yeah that'll make the ability for people to buy instantly um sell instantly should they want to we still don't prioritize the sell feature so um so you know the app is really heavy heavily built around just buying and stacking and withdrawing some bitcoin um selling on amber is actually pretty hot so um good good way to keep that cell pressure behind the scenes uh just let them in the door and then you close it behind yeah exactly basically so it's like by the way but you do have a cell feature or you have to like it's really

fucking manual oh it's really manual how do you um how is the how do you how is the uh how's bitcoin in australia doing right now is it becoming more popular look um because that's it's been the interesting thing in the news this week in particular is and i've written about it twice now two days in a row friday and today is the rogue nations turning to bitcoin like we just found out um well it's funny the rogue nations are turning to bitcoin um whilst the the developed nations are turning to um i saw a tweet today something about now they're passing a law that any police officer can apparently just ask you for any password not just at the fucking airport yeah apparently just on the street they'll walk up to you and ask you for your

password and if you don't it's a fifty thousand dollar fine in australia apparently something like that's fucking getting passed i just saw the tweet this morning i sent it to a friend of mine who works in government i'm like is this fucking shit true because i swear to god i'm gonna pack my bags and get the fuck out of there well you know it's it's i don't i don't know about the password here but like here we have civil asset forfeiture where like a cop can just walk up to you and take your cash without any no warrant no no warrant no nothing no just the suspicion that you're doing something bad with it they can't get the password though the password is protected yeah the apple the apple case when the cia was trying to get apple to to brute force i think it

was one of like uh i think it was the fbi yeah they can't legally get the password that's protected one under one of your amendments right right yeah but first of all i know in britain i know in if like if you're crossing the border and you're going to england you have to if they ask you to decrypt a drive and you don't decrypt it for them like you don't give them the password then that's a crime because they got uh glenn greenwald his partner was traveling with a bunch of drives i remember yeah they held him for like 10 hours something like 16 hours um yeah but he he never gave it up though they just made and they charged him with a crime right i think they just let him not enter the country to turn him around i think it's a crime though you have to basically give

them the pass yeah well the uk is becoming more and more orwellian which is pretty ironic man it is and and they're almost proud of it i was there the other week and they've got these posters in the um in the tube in in in their subway right and it's it's got like it's a poster with with the train and then there's these eyes in the sky and it's you know it's like you know we're watching you for your safety and i'm like fucking hell like that that's like literally v for vendetta i think that's good marketing it exists here on the subway like if you see something say something yeah they've uh that's not as blatant like i get that one if you see something say something yeah i was talking to matt about it um yesterday i was like if you see something say something and

there's like a picture of a cop with a fucking ak-47 or something or some assault rifle yeah it's like jesus christ um but yeah like in in the like this it feels a little more police statey here whereas in in the uk feels more surveillance statey like it's um they're both fucked up but uh oppression uh the obscurity of the digital world and yeah in london yeah well that's an important topic that you want to touch on today too is the separation of money and state it's important uh we're finding that the uh i don't want to say the the partnership of the state and big tech is leading to these surveillance-like states correct well this this was the original argument of the cypherpunks and i can't remember if i was

talking i can't remember who i was talking to about this um could have been on palm's podcast but you know bitcoin wasn't something that just popped up in 2008 right it's it's it's been the the dream for the last 30 years since the cypherpunk manifesto which is the world's digitizing you know we're becoming you know everything's becoming electronic and you know the the right to privacy the right to free speech the right to all of that is like is you know the sanctity of that is linked to the sanctity of our liberty and our freedoms um and if if we don't um find a way to maintain that privacy we effectively give away our freedoms and our liberties in the digital in the digital world and you know so obviously first the first step for them was to come up with strong

encryption to enable private communication you know and we sort of got that um and then the holy grail was always private uncensorable money and the ability to transact electronically without being censored um you know and and like they predicted it so well um because that's exactly the convergence that's happening now like it's literally the convergence and um i was talking with adam meister um a few months ago and sort of saying that like the way the world's probably trending is like to you know four big factions which will be um you know fed coin faction you know run by nsa or the us um and you know the the china coin faction um then you'll have probably libra corporate coin and then there'll be like pockets of citadels that are um you know they

got their own shit coins no no it'll be all bitcoiners because all those guys will be gone man those guys will go back to libra because they'll be like fuck this shit coin it's worth nothing libra's not going to launch though you just mean in general like a corporate coin yeah i think corporate coin yeah exactly so whether it's libra whether it's something else i think you know if if those guys have done anything with the announcement of labor is that um it's that they've actually and this comes back to separation of money and state they've um you know i know one of the longest standing arguments against bitcoin from no coiners has always been oh but how can a non-government entity issue a money but then when libra came

out they're like oh well like it just it almost pierced that veil yeah no it was i mean that's something that we've talked a lot about is like it was pretty crazy to me at least how uh vehemently politicians and in corporate media in particular sort of flashed out of facebook after libra and they've been discounting bitcoin to a point which was very interesting just like an interesting tell from that class but like going back to like that four pillar or those four categories like i think you're right and to some extent at least because the imf came out with a blog a week ago or two weeks ago i believe where they basically capitulated and said like there will have to be central bank issued digital currencies stable coins if you will um we should be the ones

controlling this not facebook yeah and so then your your throwaway trope that bitcoin can't work so we have to do it but they're thinking about it they're starting to posture it's crazy that they're capitulating on it um so quickly but we will see these these verticals uh sort of build themselves out but i don't know i don't the citadel world as we as it's like a huge joke and everybody likes a joke about it. I don't want a Citadel future. It's not a joke. It's a lifestyle, bro.

I don't want to live that lifestyle. We're going to have no choice. That's going to be the life. You're going to see. We're going to be taking airships between our Citadels. But again, economic reality comes into play. What are the alternatives? Here's the thing.

We've never really been able to have a society that's fundamentally free. Me and Matt were talking about this before the call. were just saying um you know the constitution of the united states was like a profound document that um you know with with the amendments and everything that you know helped set the basis for a you know a free society and it's it's why you know traditionally america was you know the greatest you know nation in the world um i don't know what is now but anyway um the the problem um the problem we've had so again that that's just managed to concentrate itself just through politics and through the fact that money and state are both linked right

what we've never had is the ability to build a society around the money that is fundamentally free and owned by the constituents of the society and that's what bitcoin gives us so for the first time in history we actually have an opportunity to to build our own you know society collective group citadel whatever the fuck we're going to call it and have an economic system citadel that that it cool so let's call it citadel that that has an economic system via which it functions so that it can actually sustain itself because and it cannot be sanctioned it cannot be turned off it cannot be censored so so all of those things um actually exist so we could fundamentally be self-sufficient on a bitcoin system but i just don't think it's gonna um i don't think it's gonna

happen cleanly because i mean bitcoin's barely i mean it's eight grand now you know it's barely 10 grand it's barely even scratched the surface as a 12 000 sats per dollar 12 000 sats per dollar it's barely scratched the surface and you've already we're already seeing you know countries like you know saying like what you just said about the imf we're seeing um you know australia like you know pass more draconian measures every single government is passing for more and more draconian measures because they they can they can feel the um the control slipping well then their reaction is to grip tighter well that's from like the top of the the world economy or the top world economies are trying to grip tighter but then again you have like venezuela buying goods from russia and china

of using bitcoin belarus their dictator slash president coming out and i don't i don't know how serious he was like that clip it seemed like it was kind of joke he looked like he was joking yeah yeah it looked like it was a joke but even so like the the notion of experimenting with bitcoin mining is like it's a joke now he's laughing now but maybe he just threw it out there like what do you guys think about this they actually are they are experimenting with it but he was also making fun of the fact that they were yeah like some company or whatever is mining bitcoin with the nuclear power yeah well the president of belarus is talking about bitcoin right exactly and ukraine again this is not anything necessarily bullish from them because

they just want to tax it but they're making it legal it seems so portugal's made it so like all these germany upstart economies germany germany also has a very beneficial tax structure yeah if you hodl for more than like a year then you're yeah there's no capital gains that's huge yeah no capital gains at all for over a year i'm pretty sure or is it just discounted capital gains i think it's none the point i'm trying to make though is like someone like some of the some of the top some of the top countries and economies like try to tighten the grip like maybe and so that's the other thing like what makes me think citadels may not be like uh the thing of the future because what if just like all these upstart economies take advantage of it and like help it

get to a place where that'd be like the belarus citadel yeah correct that's just the biggest citadel yeah well what if what if it gets to a point where economic activity is so so large that it would be again the game theory comes in if you don't participate in the network you're doing your citizens i think if you expect smaller government like the result will be like many smaller yes governments yes right yes so each smaller government is essentially a citadel because they need to defend themselves from everyone else yep i agree and i agree with the breaking up of nations yeah yeah and they're going to turn into citadels correct well so if we're going to use that definition of citadel that's exactly where i think it's going so you're

going to have this homogenous blob called china you're going to have this homogenous blob which is sort of like the imf or fed coin something like that and you'll have these nation states or citadels hanging around that are all operating on bitcoin and guess what they'll be able to trade with each other outside of influence of the other two who the hell is using the corporate coin that well that's i mean all the sheep basically so aren't they using fed coin and china coin potentially but maybe corporate coin is going to just offer some other services that fed coin and china coin don't offer i don't know i think i think the corporate coin future does highly discounts public opinion about the corporations and their ability to uh to safeguard this data

in these systems uh like kanye's coming out with his new album apparently he uh he he calls la he says that la is run by satan and he's like trying to convince everybody to delete facebook and instagram in his new album i don't know how many people mentioned bitcoin at all i don't know i don't know yeah but um i don't know like so for the corporate coins for their long-term viability like i think you have to uh you have to factor in some sort of uh public opinion deterioration over the medium to long term i believe it'd be like you'd it'd be the only way to shop at the company's store right it's like the same thing as like old-time company script where like they would pay their employees and the employees would have to shop it'll be fucking it's very easy for

a um i think it's much easier for a company like facebook to out innovate and out maneuver a fed coin or a china coin because they'll be able to give like okay shop at this store get two percent cash back like all of that sort of stuff like amazon maybe exactly yeah so it'll either i don't know it seems like amazon has an advantage through the shopping but also facebook has an advantage through its reach um and its captive audience so so maybe zuck and bezos will do a deal i don't know but like at the end of the day i just feel like they've got a competitive advantage through um through innovation the others the china coin and the fed coin will have an advantage through complacency and through some you know fucking thread of trust in the state and the force it

and and the forcing exactly yeah exactly so um you know but but i feel like there will be some form of backdoor deal where um you know whether fed coin or something like that you know is one of the basket currencies inside the corporate coin you know that it's backed by or something like that so that they've got their fingers like it'll there will have to be a deal like that in order for corporate coin to proliferate or to be allowed to proliferate well again let's talk about like black swan public opinions like we're talking about like the importance of the separation of money and state like that's one of the founding pillars of america is a separation of church and state i think for modern day republics or democracies

whatever you want to call what we have here in america that that was a big uh that was a big precedent that was set and it's sort of uh expected that going forward like hey that's a human right the separation of church and state and maybe again like we are successful in convincing others uh that separation of money and state is just as advantageous maybe you have people starting to question like oh why does the central bank own this and it should be separated why does facebook run this it should be separated should be apolitical dude so the separation of church and state allowed science to proliferate right and that changed the world completely so the way when i look at the separation of money and state and the reason why i think it'll be

such a profound change as well it's not because we're gonna just you know allow some new things to proliferate but what separation of church sorry of money and state does is um is it resets the baseline incentives of a society so so the incentives in in a society where money and state uh linked um and they're one is i guess if we first start off as the definition if we if we start off as defining money as the ultimate resource in society it's the resource through which we measure goods production value work effort time like we measure everything in this unit called money that unit is supposed to map directly to those things you shouldn't be able to just produce more of the fucking unit just because you feel like it right um or you know

adjust it or or dictate who fucking gets it in your little you know circle of um of you know cronies so what happens in a in a in a model or a system that is where money and state are one or linked as they are now is the incentive moves away from producing adding value creating and all of that the incentive moves to how do you gain hold of this resource through rent seeking through building regulation through having friends in high places like it's it's all of the fucking wrong incentives so when you separate those two and this is sort of what i say to people you know why i think a bitcoin world is so much more powerful it's that the only way in a bitcoin denominated world for you to earn or acquire more of the most important resource which is money

is to produce more to add more value to do more work that is fucking it or to steal but if you've got strong property rights in that environment when you steal you might get away with it once twice and then you get fucking shot or something so it's um like that turned i said that turned real quick um but that so the incentive then moves towards production which is literally produce produce something valuable for that's it that's it and produce first consume later it's um so so for me that like bitcoin's innovation bitcoin's most profound innovation is that is that this idea that it you know we've for the first time in history we've managed to take fixed things which is like time and energy which you know through time and energy we derive work

and all of that sort of stuff we're now able to map uh money also as a fixed constant back to those without trust without fucking trust exactly fair work correct without someone being able to tamper with that shit because there is no money in state as one then we can build functional states because money is its own sovereign thing right no i mean you're preaching to the choir here and actually while you're saying that like i was actually wondering do you think like the u.s government and academics and modern day economists would try to argue that money and state is already separated because the federal reserve is supposed to be a private entity that is not uh not associated with the government so i was gonna say that's a good right like would

they argue that already like yeah they would and that's why that's why i changed my thing before i said they were linked because i mean fundamentally they are but it's not they are they are i know that's just right i mean you have trump tweeting about a yeah lower interest rates it maybe was separate in the beginning right and it just had a guise of yeah yeah but it was still like an inside group well connected inside group treasury issuance is a is a big uh part of money creation today so correct part of part of that loop correct no matter how no matter how many constitutions or amendments or shit we sort of end up building the thing is it'll always concentrate back to a few cronies or a few people like and that's why bitcoin is just so profound

because bitcoin is just owned by everyone at different every layer of the stack and it's just so much harder to concentrate bitcoin like i mean we we can't fucking agree on anything so like it's you know like it's hard to change by design exactly and that's hard to corrupt it exactly that ossification is so important and this is where i think all the meth heads and everyone else sort of get it wrong am i allowed to say meth heads maybe you can say methods it might be the first therians is the uh is the um is the uh politically correct term And I guess ETH heads right in between is a little bit better, right? Yeah, it's a little like, hey, I'm not going to go full.

Full meth heads. Full meth head. But we already have gone full meth heads. So continue. Sorry, it's too late. I forgot what I was going to say now. What was I saying about them? Oh, yeah, that's where they get it wrong,

is they take a technologist's viewpoint of this space, and it's about moving things, changing things, upgrading things, and doing all that, where this is not about that. It's about incorruptibility. once you have the ability for someone to control something yep humans will naturally corrupt it so the best situation to protect people's rights is if just no one has control over the system correct i actually came up with a term a little while ago and i don't know if it was me or if i'd

actually heard it somewhere i don't know but it's called prospering of the commons which is supposed to be the opposite to tragedy of the commons surprise surprise um which is anything that we've had throughout history that's been a commons we've fundamentally created a tragedy out of it and through you know the desire to survive you know the desire to continue on and all that sort of stuff and our own selfish biases which you know people think selfishness is a bad thing i actually think selfishness is a fucking fundamentally good thing but unbounded selfishness is where we get ourselves into trouble i think you have to uh separate selfishness and hedonism right like assume selfishness yeah but i don't know if it's a good thing well it's no it's good

to be selfish it is because you try to better yourself exactly if you don't look good is what i say so again that's why i think it's important to like separate selfishness from hedonism yeah where hedonism is like yes you're selfish but to a gluttonous level almost yeah yeah no that's a really good distinction self-interest is maybe a better word right well it's i mean that's maybe the more politically correct version of selfishness yes but um but but look it's it's fundamentally important like everything down to our genetic like to our biology is selfish it's about self-preservation and and survival and you know continuation and you know i'm going in random tangents here but you know bitcoin takes that element of us and somehow transforms it into

this prospering of the commons where the the thing that we collectively own gets stronger the assurance is provided by the network that everybody has access to correct are made better off by the stronger network effect that you're referencing right now and it's again it's like a self-fulfilling feedback loop that makes everybody prosper at the end of the day and we've never had that before like uh some dude uh tweeted me the other day he's like oh that prospering of the commons thing that you mentioned somebody's like you know have you ever seen that in anything else I don't think I have pretty much everything's tragedy of the commons

I've actually been saying reverse tragedy of the commons that's way better better image there well is it using heuristics here if it sounds too good to be true is it too good to be true is it too good to be true to believe that

it is a prospering and this won't turn out to be a tragedy of the commons well maybe I feel like Prosperism of the Internet is a prospering of the commons like anybody having access to information. It's about incentives, right? So like when you use the internet like we are continuing to bloat it and centralize it more, right? Yeah So so Bitcoin almost had a there was a path there where?

We could have had a lot of different elements that were a tragedy of the commons, right? Like you raise the block size and definitely like that's a tragedy of the commons because people's nodes costs are going up yep um and everyone's incentivized to use as much non-chain data as possible because it costs them nothing um so you need the incentives to be bitcoin's incentives are aligned properly to to make that you know prospering of the account of the commons happen correct but they can as well they could be up but because bitcoin's so hard to change that's becoming more and more unlikely it's not only because it's so hard to change but because the um the mechanism works so well because the um the incentive for self-preservation is first and foremost in bitcoin we all stood up to

changing the fucking block size why because we're fucking greedy inherently i don't want my bags to go down i don't want my bags to be run by roger i don't want my bandwidth cost to go up exactly so literally like what happened with that fork was like bitcoin functioning exactly as it should like its immune system kicked out the shit and and tying this back to the uh other projects not um uh performance tuning for this uh for this trade-off in particular like we just saw last week like the ethereum miners just raised the gas limit out of nowhere oh i didn't see that unanimously so now everybody's node can hold more data so running a node an ethereum node just got more expensive please stacking guay man just got a bit harder all because all because that uh ponzi

scheme dap was using too much gas fairway these are going up yeah fairway man so it's all about that guay it's all about that guay stop trying to meme for them that is the worst meme man i can't believe that guy actually rolled that one out i was like really dude and then some bitcoiner was like what did he say he he gave him a better line it was something like there was some alliteration in it there was a g what's gaining gaining way i don't know that sounds like you're getting fat can we just go back can i like loop us all the way back to corporate coin yep and bring it back to corporate coin i i don't why is anyone using corporate coin exactly that's my whole point like why would you want to what it's again it's a barter it's a whole reason the token economy

doesn't work out the end of the day because you have bitcoin that you go to the bodega and that you spend and you use hypothetically in the future you don't then want to go online at the buy libra and then shop online it's definitely not going to be libra so i don't like we're using libra as an example but like i i think corporate coin will function if it's got enough critical mass but i feel like if corporate coin does exist it'll because it'll be because fed coin and corporate coin are the same coin you know it'll be like that or there'll be a backdoor deal where corporate coin is made up then why do you have fed coin um no they compete with each other the way libra or unless there's a corporate coin that does not do what libra is doing which is try to

make a basket of currencies to create a stable i think some of the citadels will be controlled by major multinational corporations well there won't be nations multi-citadel corporations right so those guys might have their own fed coin yeah and is that a corporate coin or is that a fed coin and i don't know maybe like looking at it the wrong way maybe we'll have like nation states that are corporations like that's where i always fall back back when i see like a free banking system the the like that proliferated in canada happening like the bitcoin banks situation that hal realized you will have maybe it is a is it a corporate coin now or is it like that's not a coin so that's so the way i envision the future of banks has gone off on this tangent now is that

banks are going to become more access points than the providers of the functionality. And what I mean there is banks have traditionally provided the function of store, send, receive. That is literally what they do. And then they build products and services around the ability to store, send, and receive money. Now, what we've done with Bitcoin is we've actually pushed the store, send, receive function down to the protocol layer. so the banks or the future financial institution will just be an access point that sits on top of that protocol which provides value-added services and products on top of that core function of store send receive i really like that uh simplification of store send receive it's literally what it does

like um i wrote that in the bitcoin times um and um so so i think the bitcoin banks or the banks of the future will exist and and it'll and the barrier to open a bank um is going to completely um disappear so right now in order to open a bank i was hanging out with um a friend in um latvia the other week that i told you about um and turns out um her dad was um when the ussr came down he opened one of the first banks in latvia and in order to do that you know you had to do a big deal with the um with the central bank of latvia and all this sort of like all this sort of stuff right to to be able to run a financial institution um in the future like we have and i coined this yesterday the central bank of the internet which is bitcoin and guess what to for you to do a deal

with the central bank of the internet you just need an internet connection and you can literally set up your own bank with your own products and services so what like i mean amber is a fucking bank zap is a bank like all of these apps that are coming out we're all functionally banks but the future definition of what a bank is which is an access point that provides people a way to engage use and work with this protocol that offers the final settlement layer correct and which offers the three features send store receive the future overton window the bitcoin blockchain it closes every 10 minutes but then wouldn't you just use bitcoin correct this is all bitcoin this is the point i've been trying to make yeah so so so my my whole argument about like i've been

trying to make the point too my okay okay let's come back to corporate coin so my whole point about fed coin china coin corporate coin and bitcoin is that these guys aren't gonna give up without a fight that's the thing so they're gonna try and build their own digital fucking u.s dollar coin that the corporate coins are gonna what year are we in i don't know man i'm like like give me a decade you know this is probably going to be over a couple decades but right like if it's still like 2030 or 2040 or something it'll all end up converging to bitcoin anyway because the problem is all of these other systems in vain are going to try and compete with bitcoin whilst people are looking in to these citadels and saying hey all the smart people are over there let's fucking go

there there'll be a brain suck out of these other systems now you know the corporate coin will try and compete with fed coin they might be the same coin they could be but the reason i don't think they'll be exactly the same coin is corporate coin will try and optimize for innovations that fed coin won't be willing to do but if you like the paper that the imf wrote that i or the blog post whatever i think was a blog post i alluded to earlier like that's how the imf was pitching central bank coin was hey who are tech startups to create these baskets of stabilized uh stable life assets like we should be doing that like that's our expertise i mean of course they're going to say that because now you know libra is encroaching on their turf right they're gonna be

like the product is essentially the same i mean i would argue that they're they're both uh equally incompetent and like not able to to i would say perform the task at hand i would say the team at facebook and like all of those tech companies is far more technically proficient and competent than a bunch of bureaucrats they're more design competent but the bureaucrats can just tell them they can't do it well they will what's happening right now correct but what they'll do is they'll do a backdoor deal and they'll say look we'll use your thing we'll bring liquidity to you because we've got between us three billion users across the planet we'll be able to activate this be the same coin that's my point maybe okay fine it'll be like what is it yeah usd coin powered by

facebook and this consortium of 40 tech companies or something possibly i i feel like it'll still be a little bit more of a middle ground because these basically the bargaining chip that corporate coin has on us and fed coin is that hey um we got access to way more jurisdiction than you do so you know we're not going to completely um be you know yours you know maybe we'll hold 20 30 percent 40 or whatever so i think that there's a few more bargaining chips there on both sides so i just feel like that there won't be um it won't be all us and it won't be all um corporate coin i think they've each got their um yeah there will be that awkward period where they try to make it happen and force it on people but yeah yeah yeah um again like i said i think uh i think

discounting future disillusionment of these uh of these um sort i'm looking for not structures corporates but of these you know these entities whether it be a government or or corporation um it could be a black spawn especially if we turn into like another financial crisis like for the second time in 11 years 12 years public sentiment if we have like an occupy wall street like uh i don't know if it's going to be an occupy wall street this time i feel like no well we have bitcoin's the more actionable occupy wall street but if you have sentiment return like that um i don't know i think uh i could be again i am i could be naive like maybe the same shit just keeps happening people don't care i i feel like i mean maybe i'm just more

tainted but you know and i feel like we just keep doing the same shit over and over again but um i might just say one thing for the record here whilst i am advocating for the likelihood of corporate coin i'm not for corporate coin before i get trolled on fucking twitter i i my my whole interpretation of this is that this is going to be the futile attempt of all of these guys along the journey of hyper-Bitcoinization for this to happen because the first things that are going to fall over

are going to be the weak government currencies that are already shit. People are going to run the fuck out of those for a stabler, more trusted, larger,

more liquid government-backed coin or corporate coin. Well, and we're seeing that they may even be forced into Bitcoin like it was the case with Venezuela.

They literally have no other option. They cannot use Swift. They cannot use the banking. So they're being forced one of the weakest currencies in the world forced into bitcoin um at the government level i mean if we like follow if we follow like the citadel logic then there would be to be killed i think it'd be less likely that there'd be like a single corporate coin then there'd be like many shit coins

of the like i could see like certain citadels like they only pay their all their citizens slash like workers in shit coin that's like free floated to the digital world you know potentially but i i feel like um those um those smaller ones that are running off their own shit coin will just fall over in the same way as a zimbabwe would fall over because there'll be weak citadels weak states money so so they won't be able to subsist the only guys will be able to subsist are the ones that are large enough to have some form of critical mass to keep the thing fucking rolling long enough before it decays from within so that's why the reason i think libra has an edge or that consortium has an edge is because they've got access to two and a half billion people i just

see like i think it's the volume that counts here we see like states and corporations getting closer and closer together like our government is like completely bought out right now by like corporations um because they've made they've made buying them completely legal uh and i see that merger are happening more and more and i think if we go to smaller states kind of what's going to happen is we're going to have like corporate nation-state hybrids right like isn't that do you guys know i like to romantically believe in the uh the return to more localized things like local butcher shops and like that's like in more local goods being delivered to you obviously you're connected to for to get uh raw goods from the outside world you can get them shipped in but

you have people within your quote-unquote citadel that's what it turns into technology is allowing no quotes needed and like do you have large corporations in these small nation states like no like i couldn't you see google controlling you know like a large portion of an area and and it's like the it's like the google the state of google google deal and then like they all everyone who lives there like works for google and basically that's what google basically is already i know but i'm saying in that citadel world you could see that like they like different major corporations carving out certain areas yeah i mean well again like maybe google's already trying to do that i mean apple as well with their like spaceship headquarters as well um

but it takes off but yeah but then that begs the question that begs the question is like is that is that too much of a monoculture for a citadel right you have one corporation running it like are the options on the market going to be such where it's like why would i go to the citadel made by google under their education nice housing good food you live you get paid in google shake coin yeah interesting kind of makes sense maybe so like what do you need what are the options to like not live in a corporate city are so good that it's like it's just becomes unpalatable the other one well that and let's see that's why because bitcoin exists that option will now exist right because so like prior to bitcoin if let's say google decided to just roll out this little

citadel of their own the u.s government will come down and just stamp it out right um you none of these guys can come and stamp out a bitcoin denominated um thing now i think you know what you're talking just then about um having you know the little the googleplex with their own you know shit coin and everything like that nation to google yeah the nation of google google nation yeah pump nation there's some scary motherfuckers over there um there's um i i actually think that the benefit in um in these corporate coins actually lies in the ability to to economically link up uh places that are far and wide that are dispersed um because you it fundamentally gives you reach like one of the big difficulties right now for um for people living in you know

jurisdictions that are far and wide like i mean south america is like i i think if i was if i was the libra guys the first place i'd be going is fucking south america because you've got a huge concentration of users across all your platforms on there um and you can literally like you've got currencies across every single nation in south america falling apart pretty tech savvy populations whatsapp's huge especially whatsapp whatsapp this is the big correct so so that would be a way for them to but they should what they should have done really i mean i hope no one from their team is listening to this podcast so they don't do it all the ideas but i think they should have just said it's going to be a u.s dollar stable coin we're just going to however many we have of them

it's going to be worth one dollar we have them in the bank and they're bigger than the u.s no no But the thing is, you could then pivot later. You could just be like, oh, now we've added euros. Now we've added this to the basket. Now we've added that. And at that point, you're already moving. You already have users and stuff. The US government's way less likely to stop you than when you're like nine months out from launch.

Yeah, I agree. And you're like, we're going to be a central bank. Possibly, possibly. so maybe maybe their strategy all along was you know start the negotiation up here agree here and then draw them back up no they i don't think i think they just first impressions uh i think zuck just got like first impression was hey we're coming to take your lunch that's why i liked again it was so crazy to see how viscerally and quickly uh the u.s government like maxine waters called like an emergency house meeting about it didn't she yeah and they actually all showed up which is

someone's gonna take out lunch okay okay i'm getting i think zuck just you know zuck has extraordinary control over that company still and i think he just like got it in his head that he wanted to do this and he didn't he wanted to do it big because he does everything big and and he just went for it senate that creep creeper that's it just so creepy who zuck zuck like just the way he speaks yeah i mean you're just not smoking meats smoking meats we've got to smoke meats that's one of my favorite videos on the internet it's so weird it's so weird i haven't seen it oh you haven't seen it yeah one time i think zuck like live streamed an eight hour uh barbecue where he smoked some meats and he said we're smoking meats i think like two thousand

times throughout the day it was so awkward jesus christ zuck if you're listening you should have thought sought of Libra coin in a better way you should have launched as a stable coin no I really hope they're not listening I hope they

I think it's just gonna crash and burn and then we'll just back off yeah we'll see they already have a payment rail it's just it's a fully regulated traditional

payment rail it's boring yeah but like this is always this is also gonna be fully regulated anyway right so you just put a USD wallet in every whatsapp customer

saying dude how about this Facebook how about this Facebook shock the world uh make whatsapp zap compatible and just let people have uh self-sovereign uh non-custodial wallets within the app that was my my original fear when the facebook news first came out like a year and a half ago was like if i was working at facebook that's what i would do just put a full bitcoin wallet in every whatsapp users uh uh app but the scary part of that is they would

quickly become the number one bitcoin wallet yeah everyone be using their fucking nodes and then we're screwed and they would be able to chain analysis all of us because they have like intimate knowledge about every single person on the platform let's just imagine a world in which we design this uh bitcoin compatible message app product from scratch and it works in a perfect world right like you you basically just allow people to create invoices and send invoices in the app and then on the back end they just hook up their zap wallet which is connected to their own node to their own wallets and facebook doesn't know anything except that an invoice has been created and sent maybe it doesn't even know how much it was created for whatever still

using whatsapp in this situation still using whatsapp and like a plugin yeah but um the payment gets paid in a self-sovereign did you just copy a bitcoin address like into whatsapp send it to someone and then something like that have them well but like i've been doing that forever like one of my favorite uh ways to like show bitcoin to people is when i first saw them as transaction i don't do the qr code even if they're standing next to me i have them text me their address because i feel like once you can grasp that you just have to send text and you can send it through any kind of medium and you can send payment based off that that's like crazy it's absolutely crazy qr code is less crazy yeah and but you think it's it's i mean it's not possible to implement like

it's possible now they're obviously not going that way but facebook again if you're listening i know you are zuck if you want to shock the world just make it a zap compatible you know just make a make it so your whatsapp users can can transact and send and receive uh bitcoin in a non-custodial fashion within the app they'd make a ton of money off of it too because they could just sell all that fucking chain data just all the user information off of that they could sell a ton of it they'd be the number one chain analysis company this is true number one wallet number one chain analysis company that's some scary shit they can monetize the fuck out of it do we want that no not at all hopefully they're not listening we'll see we're we're just three

idiots talking here we have no idea what we're talking about this is uh this is a very uh heady we're all drunk hi i'm not drunk it's a monday the only one drinking it's a monday at 3 p.m i'm taking it easy well we had a listener send in this bottle do you know which listener um yes this is a bottle of uh three angels or excuse me angels envy angels envy angels envy but is there rye with zero knowledge actor zero knowledge actor yeah thank you dude it tastes delicious i'm consuming it right now um yeah no this was a great just like thought experiment episode helped me think out some some thought experiments on the future of because that's actually something that has been a topic of the few of the conversations i've had over the

last couple weeks is what will the transition look like to hyperbitcoinization like will there be stable coins will hyperbitcoinization i mean again will hyperbitcoinization happen at all is that foregone conclusion i have no idea but you know if we're assuming that it does does it happen quicker than we expect and you're sort of using it as a unit of account quicker than many right now expect or is there this transition with these corporate and stable coins can you do a distributed stable coin will those proliferate is tether going to win out yeah i think it's i don't know about speed but i think it's going to be messier than a lot of us think so i think you know bitcoin will probably reach um an ability to be used as a um maybe as a medium exchange

you know inside bitcoin's own economic ecosystem and that ecosystem doesn't have to be you know jurisdictionally bound like for the first time we can be local i.e be inside bitcoin but be on different sides of the planet and still interact and still exchange and still do things um and And then this is why I just don't think the US, China and, you know, corporate coin are going to, you know, give up easily and they'll sort of build, try and build their own infrastructure and call it digital and call it better than Bitcoin and do all this sort of stuff.

But in the process, we'll just keep building mass over here and there'll just be a brain drain to where you are most rewarded for the work, effort and value you put into society. And the place where you're going to be most rewarded for that is the place where you cannot be where where the representation of all of your work cannot be debased cannot be censored cannot be confiscated and all that so so it'll just suck the best people it is it almost reminds me of um the the the ayn rand atlas shrugged and like people just the smartest people going to gulch gulch and just getting the fuck out of dodge really you know

like and watching everything else sort of crumble on itself because like you know bitcoin is like you know that peaceful opt-out and that opportunity now that we have to really reinvent society and state without any of us having control of the money and that right there like you know to tie this episode off then you know about separating money and state is in doing so we're going to build a new version of state that is so much fucking stronger and we're going to call it citadel fuck yes the citadel what citadel what are you going to name your citadel man uh i don't know but we're definitely gonna name the podcast rename the podcast tales from the citadels um that'll be a great day so i was thinking when he was

mentioning that there is like an intermediary period in citadel logic where we'll have smaller citadels while we're trying to wait out the craziness that happens and then the whole world will move to like these smaller states that are citadels so it's like citadels within citadels do either of you guys have like a romantic holdout for uh the conditions of our our current condition being that we live with the internet and information can spread almost instantaneously across the world you can get any almost any information to almost half the people on the planet any given like in some way or form or via cell phones or direct access to the internet via web browser like do you have hope that the information about bitcoin being a better

monetary system can spread through these avenues in a quick enough fashion and there could be a sort of global consciousness shift in a quicker time frame than than we would think other based on looking at history so going forward because of these technologies and their ability to get information out do you think that changes our maybe maybe our expectations of how it plays out in the future are sort of clouded by how it's played out so far up to this point i mean we saw i i think when we have like times of like immense crisis like people end up moving quicker too so not only do we have the internet spreading all this information and and planting seeds a lot a lot of all over the world is planting seeds but like when we saw like when the when the greeks

had their financial collapse i remember a couple years ago i remember they had like whole areas just switched to the barter system they just set up markets and they were like doing this informal trade system amongst each other right if 10 people in that community have bitcoin and bitcoin isn't suffering the same crisis that everyone else there is suffering it kind of turns into this self-fulfilling kind of prophecy where those people are seeding a new market in that area that's using bitcoin as their barter element right a universal barter element well that was actually what was very interesting to hear from mauricio uh who was on the podcast last week he's from venezuela if you guys haven't heard that episode go listen to it if you want to learn about what's

going on on the ground in venezuela it's crazy but he told a story he told not a story but uh He explained how Venezuelans are writing seed phrases on pieces of paper crossing the border into Colombia and then immediately going to one of two Bitcoin ATMs right across the most popular border crossing between Venezuela and Colombia. And he was saying just optically, you have 50,000 people crossing that border every day by foot

and they see 200 people waiting in line at these ATMs and just naturally they're like, what the hell is going on here? And they start asking the people in line, like what are you guys doing like yeah dude we just wrote 12 words on this piece of paper we got our money we're about to get it from this atm yeah that is something that's like whoa yeah there's um i i came up with a model a little while ago and this is probably a cool little meme to spread is um people get into bitcoin for two reasons curiosity or pain but i literally think it

boils down to those two reasons you're either curious enough to to want to understand money to understand sovereignty to understand all of the things that you know make bitcoin special or pain is going to force you into getting involved in bitcoin in some way shape or form the question is you know it's just a matter of which one is it going to be and at some point in time like let's say you're even a shit coiner you come in you know through shit coining and the pain that's going to end up you know getting you to circle into bitcoin is understanding that your shit coins are worth nothing and you know coming around to bitcoin if you're a no coiner same sort of thing if you're a pre like all any all avenues will lead you know to one of those reasons being

you know the why of you know you're getting into bitcoin which is kind of what you mentioned in the beginning and then you just nailed it then with um with the curiosity around people lining up at um atms and people are curious like what is it why you know and then sort of get intellectually you know stimulated by it and curious about it and i mean we we're lucky enough living in the first world like the pain hasn't been that great but i'm sure we've all had our own little bits and pieces of pain along the way that have been that have acted as further catalysts i mean the studio is uh is a first world problem right here like it's uh it's a great studio but it is insanely obscenely expensive um just feeling the pressures of of the ills of the monetary system

Yeah, I would argue that New York real estate prices are inflated by people using the real estate for capital flight. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it is a worse store of value than Bitcoin. So we shall see how that plays out. We shall see. We shall see. We shall see how a lot of things play out.

So as you freaks go to observe how this all plays out, think about the separation of money and state. It's important. Is it an imperative human right? that would uh like we discussed lay all the lay all the level the playing field of incentives hell yeah and have uh have us uh a prosper what was it prosperity the commons prosperity of the commons yeah i um i i feel like honestly this is we are so lucky to be born at this time because like you look back at the renaissance and you know like that that period changed history fundamentally and like we're we're in a period that'll change history fundamentally as we sort

of you know move on to the stars like as sort of mankind turns a new chapter i think this is the catalyst that allows for that to happen because bitcoin just impacts so many things it's so fucking beautiful i know keep it pointing freaks um it's fun it's fun being able to meet people like you fucking fantastic sit down have these cool conversations uh thank you for coming along with our thought experiment freaks yeah we rambled a lot there we talked about things that we may not know how or we don't know if they will happen or will not happen, but sometimes it's cool to walk down those,

uh, those paths, you know? Um, that was fun, dude. Thanks, man.

Really appreciate it. Good luck. Uh, good luck in Times Square later today. I wouldn't wish that upon anybody. I'm just going to bunk it down in the hotel. Yeah. What did you got any parting notes for the freaks out there,

man? Citadels will happen. Stay humble and stack sats. Peace and love freaks. Peek-a-boo!