TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - Tales from the Crypt #111: Evan Kaloudis

Episode Date: October 30, 2019

Join Marty and Matt as they sit down with Evan Kaloudis, Founder of ZeusLN.app, to drink moonshine and discuss: - Zeus - State of the Lightning Network - Gaming - Why are we doing this? - Security attack vectors to be aware of - Much more Follow Evan on Twitter: www.twitter.com/evankaloudis Check out Zeus Shoutout to this week's sponsors. Cash App. Head over to the App Store or Google Play Store, download cash.app and start #stackingsats today. Use the promo code: "stackingsats" to receive $5 and contribute $5 to OWLS Lacrosse you download the app. Casa. Use promo code “TFTC” to get up to $250 off your Casa membership … or hit their team up [e-mail] for a free demo, or to put them to the test with your hardest OpSec questions! Subscribe to our YouTube channel: tftc.tv Contribute to the show: https://tftc.io/contribute/

What is up, freaks? It's your boy Marty Ben here to introduce this week's episode with Evan Kaloudis from the ZeusLN.app, the creator of ZeusLN.app. Go check that out. We talk all about it in the episode. Evan is an incredible builder, working on some really cool stuff. He's got a good security background. Matt and I drank some moonshine with him and talked about a bunch of stuff. We got a little passionate at the end. so I think you freaks are going to enjoy this this week's episode of Tales from the Crypt is sponsored by Cash App Cash App has been number one in the finance section of the app store for almost two years it was the first major reading the wrong

ad god damn it well this happens sometimes I'm going to start out we got new ad copy for the Cash App you guys are going to get that outtake I'll give you that outtake as I scroll to the new copy because we got new copy

because it's got new functionality. It's now that you can buy stocks. Tales from the Crypt is brought to you by the Cash App. As you know, Cash App is the simplest way to send and save money. And now it's the simplest way to grow your money. Introducing Cash App Investing. Unlike investing tools that only let you buy entire shares of stocks, Cash App lets you instantly invest as little or as much as you want.

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Investing is subsidiary of Square and member SIPC. And as always, use the code STACKINGSATS. You're going to get $5, and $5 is going to go to Owls Lacrosse. Owls Lacrosse. um i've heard a few of your freaks think owls lacrosse is owls lacrosse al apostrophe s is owls owls sorry for my philly accent coming out in that pronunciation pretty poor there but actually we have some good news caught up with sam angelotta who is the executive director of owls over the weekend um cash app delivered the money we raised from the stacking

sats promo code uh to sam last week and that money is enough to provide a student with uh academic and athletic resources throughout the year so good on you freaks who uh downloaded the cash app and use the code stacking sats we're going to keep this going think about maybe potentially doing um a campaign for owls leading up to christmas or something like that um we'll we'll mull that over uh the next couple of months or so and let you know about that but still stacking stats you're gonna get five it's still gonna go to owls let's pump those stats get those uh pump those stats stack those sets use the cash app use the code stacking sets um this episode's also brought to you by casa our friends at casa have drummed up one of the

smartest and most secure ways to holler your bitcoin we got really cool products out there they just launched their second node um they have their multi-sig uh services which are separate from the node and they can help you protect your bitcoin get peace of mind uh they're gonna walk you through an OPSEC plan. Uh, there's no KYC, no all coins, no percentage fees on your Bitcoin, no one standing between you and your keys. Uh, and they have packages. So depending on what you're looking, uh, to do specifically how much Bitcoin you're looking to secure, uh, using Casa as a solution, uh, you can, you can get a diamond platinum gold memberships. Uh, but for serious holiday, you're going to go diamond or platinum, and that's going to net you

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and securing Bitcoin, giving you peace of mind. So go check out Kasa at keys.kasa slash keymaster. Enjoy this episode, freaks. Evan, Matt, and I had a very good time drinking moonshine. Okay.

Cheers, cheers. What is up, freaks? Ooh, it's your boy Marty Benton. He just took his first sip of moonshine ever. It wasn't too bad. Why are you grimacing over there? Questionable. Questionable.

Obviously, Matt O'Dell is with us. We're joined with Evan Clutas as well. I've just been corrected how to say your name correctly. I'm sorry for mispronouncing. Hey, no worries. What's up, freaks? Just really glad to be on the podcast. Big fan, long-time fan.

Well, I'm pumped to have you here, pumped for this conversation. For you freaks that don't know, Evan is the creator of the ZeusLN.app. It's a Zeus Lightning Network wallet, and he's a New York Bitcoiner. He has been co-hosting the Bitcoin Citadel demonstrations with a good friend, Matt O'Dell.

We've only done one at Chaincode, but he's just a good Bitcoiner, and I'm happy to have him. He's got Moonshine. And let's start before we ease into Bitcoin and the Lightning Network. What the fuck are we drinking? So, yeah, I think this might be one of the stranger presented liquors you guys have had on the show. Yeah, it came in a water bottle.

Yeah, just like this clear, unmarked water bottle. This is from my yaya. You know, my great grandmother, she brought this from my grandfather's village in Epirus, which is the very northern tip of Greece. you could pretty much see albania from our uh our little house there and uh yeah i had the option of you know bringing marty and matt either uh you know a bottle of uh tsipouro uh from uh you know duty free or bring them the real authentic stuff and you know i i had to do it big so we got the authentic stuff it tastes good i'm moonshine scares me should i be scared of moonshine i've never drank

it before people say you can go blind what is it about i never knew there was greek moonshine i thought moonshine was a indigenous state appalachian states here in america oh no we got a couple of takes centric of you we got uh we got uh rocky uh man i had a great experience with my godbrother michali drinking rocky not last year but two summers ago and got me and my girlfriend really drunk, so shouts to Mikali for that. Yeah, the Greeks don't mess around with, you know, the liquor. We've got our moonshines, you know, we like a little bit of whiskey, we've got our wines, a lot of red wines. So you've got a lot of extended family in Greece, and you grew up here though, right?

Yeah, I was, you know, born in Queens, raised in Long Island, sort of always been in New York State my whole life. Big fat Greek family? uh well you know when you get past the first degree of cousins and you go to second and third cousins it gets a little hairy so you know uh it gets hard to remember everyone's names at the holidays sometimes but you know it's it's a big family it's a great family and you were just back in greece right yeah yeah i just went uh was it like two months ago i was there uh i was in athens for a week. I was in Zaginthos, a beautiful

island for a week. Athens was really cool because I got to sync up with the Athens Bitcoiners there. They did a little impromptu social gathering. Yeah, it was just great to see all the figures in the scene just getting together.

What's it like over there? Is there a lot of Bitcoiners in Greece? Dude, I was surprised by this meetup. It was like 30, 40 people came out or something like that. you know and you know different groups and uh whatnot you know we had some people there uh that weren't pure bitcoiners some people working on ethereum too and intrigued by the smart contract stuff but yeah like a lot of like uh honest tried and true uh bitcoiners out there this guy d3 like

organizes the meetup and he's gotten some great great speakers out there from antinopolis you know who's also greek to amir taki i think he's gotten to come speak out there um we got this guy argue he passed me the ln torch so um yeah that was another fun thing uh got juice or you know myself rather in on the ln torch thing and uh my goal was to get the torch and send it to greece but it actually ended up being the other way around so this guy argue uh passed me the torch and i'm like you know what it got to greece that's all i care and you know i got to meet him and sit down with him and we had like some really amazing in-depth uh you know discussions from you know politics uh you know all these different labels antifa um what are your thoughts

on antifa antifa oh man now you're hitting me with the loaded question um we spoke a lot about this because argue was sort of getting chewed out by some you know some more american leaning uh you know as far as ideology uh bitcoiners right and um yeah it's just like it's it really comes down to cultural differences at the end of the day like you know fascism was widespread through europe but you know we don't really have that equivalent in the states i don't think so i don't i don't think we've seen real fascism in america ever really well what was the fascism like in europe that you're speaking of like what are you you know you're you're talking about franco and mussolini and hitler to you know in his own way um you know antifa there was just

like you know reactionary to all this messed up stuff that was going on and um you know in that different context it doesn't like really make sense in the same way that it does in the united states in what way um you know it's just the way that they treat people out on the streets like you know for example if antifa in greece right started uh attacking innocent bystanders there would be a reaction from the more right radical uh revolutionaries or not revolutionaries But radicals like Christy Avgi, Golden Dawn in Greece, like, you know, those things aren't tolerated, really. Yeah, and this all stems back to like the 2009, 2008, 2009 crisis.

And that's one of my favorite chapters in Boomerang, a book by Michael Lewis who wrote Moneyball and The Big Short and Liar's Poker and a bunch of other books. One of his underscore books, I've talked about it on this podcast before, Boomerang, though, they did like a whole chapter on Greece, Italy, how they got added into the EU, like how their balance sheets were basically manipulated by the goldman sachs by goldman sachs and the imf to to get them into the european union and then um it hasn't been a great ride

right like there's yeah i mean it's been pretty crazy there so the week that i was there in athens they had just lifted their capital controls you know it's it's crazy like for what were their capital controls in particular? It was withdrawal limits at the ATMs, and I think it was something like $300 a day. I think it may have been less. They eventually turned that daily limit into a combined weekly limit. That helped a little bit. But yeah, that was in place until the week I was there. It's like two months ago. So yeah, it's just sort of mind-boggling that we still have these restrictions in place or that you know they're they're so common yeah well let's use this as an opportunity to circle back like why the hell did you get into bitcoin in the first

place like does this stuff drive you towards bitcoin in particular or did you come to it from a tech perspective um it's really a lot of different uh like angles i came at it from i have I have, you know, this, my godbrother's father is a bit of a gold bug. He manages hedge fund, and he really got me into a lot of, like, the Austrian school of thought. And, you know, he's always tried to push on me the idea of, you know, gold is money. Everything else is dead or, you know, or bullshit, more or less. Is he your crazy uncle? or i oh he's certainly crazy but he's like he's brilliant too like you know certainly you know

a little too extreme at times uh oftentimes doesn't know his audience but he's still brilliant nonetheless i think uh i feel like the gold bugs and the hard money advocates like us bitcoiners we're starting to have our day i feel like people are starting to come around to to gold and bitcoin is money i mean obviously the real vision episode that dropped today was safe it's kind of like a good reaction from the gold bugs from my observation at least um so gold was one thing you're a dev as well you're building on this is that did you come to it first from economics and then i'll be like oh shit i could build stuff on this or it was it was all at once because so really it was it was like a three-year journey i would say so um that first year that i went to

school. I went to Fordham University. Go Rams. Go Rams. So that first year, that first semester really is when Occupy Wall Street really started going up. And I was living on the floor with a great group of guys. And just one day we decided to go see what the Zuccotti Park protests were all about. I think what really pushed us to the edge was we heard a rumor that Radiohead was going to show up and play a set and uh they they didn't i think uh some other indie rock band like i think the lead singer of neutral milk hotel wouldn't play jeff mango but anyway we didn't catch that but we did uh you know we ended up seeing what's going on we saw all the energy down there and uh you know not everyone came back but i found myself going back you know five six

times what was the vibe like oh it was it was crazy it was chaotic and that's what a lot of people tell you about occupy wall street that oh that's why it didn't work the different people had different demands it was unorganized uh you know demands weren't really serious but you know there was also differing opinions there too you know you had people showing up with suits smoking cigars with cardboard cutouts of ronald reagan say that reagan was the best president you had these extreme leftists you had um you had peter schiff down there peter schiff did an incredible debate of dismantling of all these leftists down at occupy wall street i remember he had one video about like the minimum wage right or um he would just debate like random

people right yeah yeah this was like you know he would talk to someone until they pretty much rage quit and he did this for like i don't know it was like 10 or 15 people on youtube and who spend like 50 minutes and we were there just watching it live we're like he's just so thorough and you know pragmatic with his dismantling of these ideas like it wasn't his first time at the rodeo and um you know even though peter schriff is somewhat of an enemy of bitcoin right now i always call him an enemy he's a he's a hard money advocate that's a that's a that's an ally that doesn't know yeah yeah he's not he's not krugman he's not a central banker he shows gold because that's what his business is but he definitely owns bitcoin i hope so and and i really think

he should admit it but he didn't buy it it was sent to him no besides that bitcoin besides the bitcoin that would like tom sent to him and like some other people sent to him yeah yeah so i think he'll come around i hope so because i've been tweeting at him a little bit i'm like peter you know you there's no law that says you either have to sell gold or bitcoin you sell both man like they're both gonna advance you know your ideas of freedom they're both competing against the u.s dollar fed funny money why not i mean why not that's a good question why not peter i mean i prefer bitcoin over gold maybe he does too and he realizes it so he's like i gotta check it for as long as possible while i dump my bags yeah yeah well

i think he'll come he'll be forced to come around but again like i've become more of a believer that we should try to reach out to the gold bugs and use them as allies in our in our fight for hard money they had the most in common with us when it comes to uh economic views on this stuff yeah absolutely i agree 100 and you know it's not like the easiest thing to come around to so like i was saying me coming into bitcoin like it took me like three years to really have that like aha moment you know where i'm like this makes total sense and this isn't just like you know some just average person i was studying computer science i had my uncle savas telling me all this crazy uh you know austrian stuff and contrarian views you know

it's what it takes time for to like really really click just because of you know all the pieces that are involved and all the different levels you have to think about it on what were the uh the different stages you went through and what was the final aha moment we're like fuck i'm gonna start building shit for this um yeah i mean you know from the occupy stuff and seeing how bad the banks got bailed out while people who were really struggling got kicked to the curb or to see the bail-ins in cyprus you know that that was really a big moment that made me dive into it and then um you know seeing all the sort of commerce that happened on the silk road both good and bad but you know was ultimately new to us and cyberspace but um it's really just

the interactions you have personally with um the protocol and with the money that you know really highlighted you need you need the personal context for to all click so i guess like one of the best examples is um i guess about three or four years ago i uh went to london to visit my buddy rob uh rob and i helped he helped me start this music site um called beatsperminute.com that's a good story yeah it so um yeah rob and i we had met online we had worked on this site for years uh he was the editor-in-chief for a couple years too um and yeah so uh you know i spent a week with him and we uh you know i tallied up a pretty big bill and uh in a lot in uk they use a lot of their like touch cards on their debit card so at the end of the week when we said okay let's

settle up what what do i owe you and i'm gonna owe you this balance in pounds right he's like all right um you owed me you know this much in pounds but you know i'll take in bitcoin i'm like that's perfect like you know now we have this uh monetary uh good that we could would settle in that's pretty much good in both our jurisdictions did you have any at this point yeah yeah yeah at this point i was uh pretty pretty locked in um and you're pretty locked in now so well uh not as much i mean i did go boating and jogging thus uh i lost a couple cold cards off the back of the bus i mean uh off the back of the boat but we tell you freaks don't go boating with your cold cards it's dangerous we've known too many to have lost them i'm sorry thank you for your service to uh

to deflation i do what i can well let's talk about zeus dude so what is zeus why did you decide to build it was it a problem you were solving for yourself was it a problem you solved that the market had that needed to be solved or you just fuck it around it turned into something uh yeah it's a number number of things um so i had started um my lighting journey i did a couple transactions with eclair on mobile at first and went and bought some stuff from blockstream and then as i dove a little deeper into it i started using zap and uh yeah zap is incredible zap really sort of paved the way for Zeus in a lot of ways but yeah I started contributing to zap and I put in some error utils and you know I started getting really excited about like all the possibilities

of you know how the user can interact with lightning and from there I went and I made my own node with a raspberry pi I followed the raspi bolt guide first before doing raspi blitz and you know I had this great node I could use it from home you know on my laptop but it sort of defeated the purpose of lightning like you know you have instant transactions low fees it's perfect for making transactions out in the wild so I sort of evaluated the other apps that were out there and I sort of saw that they didn't really suit my needs and then I went and I talked with Jack briefly on the zap slack and uh i ran the idea past him and um he was sort of more leaning towards having a native app written completely in java as far as android goes and i was sort of um

leaning towards using this new solution called react native uh so a little background about myself um i've been working in cyber security the past five and a half years or so i work at this firm called iron net and um we do like cyber security for big firms everything from like energy companies to hedge funds banks uh really you name it and i've been working on as a engineer there i've been working on the product last year's been systems programming but before that it was like four and a half years of front-end engineering and uh yeah i've really come to like this front-end framework called React from Facebook and I had heard about this framework that they had for developing apps on mobile and yeah I just thought this this would

be a great I you know idea for getting my hands wet with it and getting my hands dirty with it and you know trying it out seeing what it was all about and trying to transform some of my web design and web development skills over to a mobile platform and yeah I just started trying to connect to my node doing basic stuff, learning the L&D API, and I slowly built it up until I had a fully functioning app that had QR scanners, you connect to your node, you can go and make transactions on-chain and off-chain through LN, you can manage channels, you can open private channels, and if you're on Android, you can connect to the whole thing over Tor, which, you know, is a great feature,

I think, as far as, you know, privacy and security goes. What were some of, like, the biggest things you learned while building it, or, like, the biggest hurdles, things that, assumptions you had before you went in that were sort of confronted as you were building stuff like that? I learned a whole bunch about NPM dependencies for JavaScript products and how many of them actually have proprietary code in them. So part of the challenge I set off for myself to do with Zeus was to support this lesser known app store.

It's called FDroid and it's only for Android, but they do a couple of very interesting things. They do these, you know, they have a format for reproducible builds, which means everything that gets into the store must be able to, you know, be compiled and recreated in this specific format. And then rule number two is that there can't be any proprietary code, so, you know, part of the challenge was working with the QR scanner and making sure the camera aspect of the app worked correctly because the leading React Native library had all these proprietary dependencies from Google. So we've had to be sort of crafty to work around it and use a lesser known one.

So yeah, that's been a huge challenge. It's also been a challenge in sort of setting up this open source community where people are contributing back and submitting PRs and submitting issues this is really my first big open source project so i knew there would be a lot big learning curve there but now we've got like so many people hanging out in our telegram group giving us feedback coming up with ideas saying they want to tackle x y or z next creating forks and it's it's just awesome what was the process of people flooding into the project like was it one due to first just yeah it's just uh very very slow and stagnant at first but you know with each day that passes especially when you're actively working on stuff too and you know people are like

some stuff's going on let's see what's going on with this new release or whatever it's it gets sort of overwhelming at times i think it's gonna get a little more overwhelming So I'm trying to, you know, just get more contributors on board and see who's interested and see if anyone's going to step up and take up some new roles to add some new features to this thing. But, yeah, I'm just trying to get more people to look at the code, more people to just try it out and see what we're offering and see what we could build on top of this. I think it has a lot of potential. So what are, like, what are the things that worry you most about the app right now? What, like, features do you want to add? um so first of all i want to make this the best app for uh power users starting you know

at first at least um you know zeus there's no built-in neutrino client you're not running lnd on your phone you're connecting remotely so this is for people who are serious about having um you know lnd node running 24 7 who really want to be part of the ecosystem system, dealing with a lot of channels and managing them. So some things I want to do, I want to have a display of what your fees are collected for routing. I want to expand support for other implementations of Lightning other than LND. Looks like the first one we're going to do is CLightning REST, which Salvi from Ride

the Lightning has put together. It looks very promising, I'm going to be implementing that in the coming weeks. And then from that, I just want better channel management tools, like maybe get some interaction with lightning loop so that you're able to balance your channels or sends from lightning to on chain and vice versa. And just yeah, just work from there. The name is fucking dope. Like you know, this industry we have, you know, they just they always take we take Bitcoin

terms blockchain the lightning app sats app but zeus fucking clutch you got the lightning reference there you got the greek reference it's catchy name capture it all in one thanks man appreciate that yeah uh it just seemed like a no-brainer to me uh you know sorry if i stepped on zap's toes with the z and my single uh i don't i don't think zap cares that much that's another good name i like that name too yeah there's so many good lightning related names you can choose yeah well what are your thoughts on like lightning right now as a as a network it's something we were talking about on rhr like obviously the big bug the big recent bug that could have trained everybody's channels uh definitely not a good luck uh channel management is something i consider

myself more technical than your average user but not uh it could potentially come a power user taking a lot of work and i'd rather not do that work so like channel management shit like that for me is is arduous i do it but it's like ah fuck i gotta do some channel management now like Do you see that improving? Do you think Lightning has a chance to be the successful network that we think it can become? Do you think it has any? It absolutely has that potential to become the network we hope it can be, but it could also easily fail in a lot of ways, I think.

There are a lot of promising things that are happening right now. We're getting a lot of alternate implementations. implementations we're getting all these different versions of apps that all you know sort of bring something different to the table you know and say something like bottle pay is very different from zeus which is very different from lightning labs internal app and it's cool to see things being taken from different perspectives and from different lenses but you know we're all still so early i think that um that exploit that we saw recently with lnd i think c lightning had some issues too where all three adam yeah i think that's testament to you know how early we are but

you know certainly not the last of it we're going to have a couple more nasty things like that but at least you could say that we have incredible coordination across all these teams that they We were able to handle it so well, you know, stagger the information so it didn't get exploited too badly and got patched right up. Yeah, so you think that was a good handling of that? Oh, I think they handled it phenomenally, to be honest. And, yeah, these things are going to happen. We need to stay really humble about this thing.

Like, obviously, in the last year, the development's been incredible and it has so much promise, but there's still going to be a lot of hurdles. We're gonna see more bugs like this, but you know, we also have these issues with liquidity and coming and outgoing that's pretty huge too and You know for someone using Zeus who has their own nodes set up It might not be so big at an issue because they're doing CLI stuff They're sort of going through the documentation sort of learning how it all works to really Make it all plug in together, but I think we're gonna have some problems or there are some problems rather

they're dealing with more casual users and trying to convey to them what these channels mean what the limits of you know having different amounts of liquidity are that's why I'm like sort of you know very impressed with breezes approach where they give you some incoming liquidity to help alleviate that process I think some you're gonna see more people making you know some investments like that just eating uh it's not really scalable right it's not scalable that's the real kick it's like a nice little stop gap bootstrap yeah stop gap bootstrap um i mean and then you look at someone like see this is why i hate the name of their wallet like lightning labs's wallet in-house wallet or whatever um the lightning wallet they just abstract the channels away from you completely

You don't get any inbound liquidity But I guess Breeze Yeah, Breeze never shows you any channel management either Both of them show you no channel management With Breeze, it opens an outbound To their node And with Lightning Labs' wallet

They do the auto-select What is it called? Autopilot Autopilot, you're right And it just picks some random big node And just opens a channel to it But it never shows you and it actually defaults to dollars it doesn't even show you sets or anything you can switch to sets you just click the button but when you first load it up it's dollars and there's no

channels shown to you at all yeah yeah definitely a different approach from what we're trying to do in Zeus what uh like how weird do you think lightning can get like one of the weirdest use cases that maybe people aren't talking about that maybe you're thinking about if any well certainly that's what I really like to see making the apps and the wall it's really cool but I want to see the very interesting implementations of

lightning and I know this is like been said before but I really want to see streaming services done with lightning where you're paying by how much of a show or song or album you listen to I think something like that could potentially be very interesting

you know breaking up your bill by how much you actually consume instead of having you know these media conglomerates right now charging you a monthly fee and then banking that you're gonna consume less than that you know what i mean well that's costco's model right that's they don't make any of their money on uh like the retail sales is on the subscription to the to the costco card um but no i agree and that's something we had just talked about a rabbit hole recap like i want to see these publishers put up content paywalls that's like the first little use case it's a little trojan horse like oh this is interesting enables cool things and

then i think i saw stop into crypt talking about like using it to create a vpn service or something like that in the future which gaming is going to be the the dark horse international gaming yeah i think so too because you know that's how you get the youth so people like you know bitcoin rabbi who are like all right we need to not sell the older generation of gold bugs or the current generation per se but you know the people who are going to be around for you know this transformation and maybe our site is not the best site uh as a an example for this but maybe it is I don't know. Maybe people are more abreast to use Lightning on our site than other services

because we advertise it. They should go try it out. But, again, I just dropped the stat on our HR. 87% of the total transactions that have come through our tftc.io node have been Lightning Network transactions. 13% have been on-chain, but only 9% of the value we've received has been Lightning. So it's people experimenting with microtransactions, and people are using Bitcoin via Lightning.

Yeah, it's fantastic. I think part of it is curiosity and people, you know, just trying it out, trying the new tech out and getting more familiar with it. But I think there's also a good chunk of Bitcoiners who understand what added privacy protections they get by using AdLine. This is a good point because I got shit on on Twitter yesterday for saying that Lightning does increase privacy. How does it do it? Does it do it? And what would be the FUD for it not providing more privacy? well you know you can monitor nodes to a certain extent but i think things get really tricky on that front once you have a couple of private channels in the mix like if you have this node and you're suddenly blind to a couple of inputs you know if the transactions that are being routed out through those channels you know you're sort of blind to to be honest and uh the to surveil

that sort of stuff you need to go in much deeper and the cost of that is gets pretty absurd at least at scale what would it be like well you have to like it requires active monitoring because nothing's on on chain so you have to like acquire you have to have a large number of routing nodes or at least complicit routing nodes right yeah absolutely uh you got to sort of you know eclipse the network in a way or you're like stake bitcoin you have to take bitcoin and lock it up in channels and have all these high performant routing nodes that are getting a ton of traffic yeah either that or you have to support the system to attack the privacy right yep from the external internet absolutely what is that what if so that's like another thing a lot of people who don't

understand private channels been reporting that channel numbers have been going down node counts been going down capacity has been going down but not taking into consideration private channels Like, do you see a future in which most channels are private? That would make sense to me, right? Absolutely. I think we're going to hit a point at which the majority of channels are private, and I think that's going to come sooner than later. I think software is mostly going to be, you know, determining that.

We're really proud to offer up that option to make your channel private on creation in Zeus, and, you know, that's something I definitely prioritize getting in there. What does that mean for, like, measuring the activity on the network? How would you ever know just like my points? It's it's uh, you know that that's what everybody had to self-report like Well, I mean, I guess there are ways to make you know estimates but at the end of the day They're just gonna be that estimate. Unfortunately. We've gotten so used to having this completely transparent system on layer one with the blockchain You know people are just used to that They were they were hoping that man we can get some awesome metrics out of this l2 stuff too

and that's not the case at all, really. I mean, you could sort of get some idea of what's going on in the network by what's available to you to see. You have like a big node and then you extrapolate. That's what like Ellen Biggs is trying to do. He's like been posting stats and then he extrapolates it based across the network.

So where do you guys stand with that guy? Do you think he's a bad actor? Well, in the beginning we did. We think he's a good guy. He's just a big coin maker. He just got in early. He's got all these coins. He wants to test out the new thing.

He did an interview. it was an interesting interview he like with who so like was it it was a written interview was it it might have been with bitcoin magazine cool and um he said he you know he he like runs the it for this like large company and they just had like all these extra servers and he's a bitcoiner and he just ripping that's why they're all in like the same server farms yeah they're all in the same as done Virginia right yeah and the other so all the consumer wallets are all making the move to the model is you hope you you run your light node you're like you're not you're not a routing no you're right you run your

lightning wallet it's a light node you open one or two big private channels to a large node and then you like loop out or something mm-hmm and then you have inbound liquidity so like they're all defaulting to private channels with routing nodes you can't route someone's payment through a private channel so but it could be used in ways where like two big routing nodes have a big private channel would that be like a tour relay node where it has to like where the traffic has to go through that node i'm correcting that right you can't route through a private channel i think you can actually like if you're sending a payment i can't be a hop in between because you don't know my private channel exists you don't know but the network

might right how would the network know it's a private channel that's the whole point uh yeah i gotta defer on this we should really i'm like 98 well let's let's pivot to this like what i'm worried about is like there are a way like we move most of the shit to private channels that the that's what i'm saying i don't think you can should it be game could be could it be bastardized in a way like could you have like rehypothetic rehypothetic that word that big rehypothecation word um no i mean yeah to be honest if you're really going to be doing damage on this network you really need to stake a lot of bitcoin to begin with which is you know sort of beauty of it you never make bitcoin out of thin air anyway yeah exactly because it's a lot

it's locked bitcoin yeah but would you be able to like spoof valid and valid invoices on on a private channel i don't know i'm just like well with the last exploit we just saw you could have that's exactly what it was yeah it would have been the perfect uh but that only hurts people on lightning it doesn't hurt anyone on the main chain is what i'm trying to say no of course and that's part of the beauty of the design like you can hedge appropriately you know like i mean you guys are a little crazy with your note or the thief is the thief is a little yeah take it easy out there thief i think it's one of the greek bitcoiners it might be those guys are nefarious man listen they're already scoping out a location for the

citadel there you go well let's talk about this not a big citadel fan here but i i ridiculous i will uh i will appease the talk of greek citadels where is it going to be oh well we'll take that one off off the air okay well we're gonna keep their location secret that's good that was bad ops like it was a test that was a test was tested you can't tell where you're playing citadel is you have to prepare yeah yeah we can't have like a bidding war with you know oh they're bitcoiners yeah it's true good point good point yeah um fuck man so like do you think we win like let's just get heady here like do you think bitcoin is successful like are you in this for freedom Do you think the world needs Bitcoin right now?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, do we win? Nothing's written in stone, Marty. We could fuck this thing up so many different ways, but each day that we have developers looking at the code and building some solutions on top of it, whether it be through new signature schemes or doing stuff on L2,

it becomes just a little bit harder for that to be fucked up. but we still have a long way to go as far as you know the tools and the software Bitcoiners are using as well as you know education and you know word of mouth and adoption really let's focus on education there like you obviously have a drive to educate people with these workshops the two of you across from me right now do you think those are like high leverage activities meeting people in person walking them through this stuff is what is the best way to educate i think there's just incredible um incredible value just being able to network with these people for us to just build out our own personal sort of local uh communities i mean education is crucial and it needs to be

um you know part of this journey and getting bitcoin to where we want it but you know doing these workshops one off at a time it doesn't really scale really to the millions of people we need to really but if you uh you know alongside your workshops uh put out all these other materials like we have you know if you put out video written content guides i think that in conjunction with workshops can go a long way i think and we're like johnny apple seeds planting planting seeds all over all over the minds of potential pre bitcoiners uh pre-coiners now potential bitcoiners in the future and it's uh the local network is is very important it's actually something that justin moon mentioned last night the fact that like he was down in austin and just started a meetup because

he wanted to meet bitcoiners and like-minded people and like he's developed a great network just through that but i've said this many times on this podcast we are completely spoiled in the with the amount of talented people working on Bitcoin and thinking about Bitcoin and working on people, Bitcoin, you being one of them. That's like how we met, the New York scene. Yeah, I mean, we're incredibly spoiled with, I think the New York scene might be the best in the world for,

I mean, despite having awful things in New York State like the BitLicense, fuck you, Ben Walski. Don't speak that way about a Ripple board member. Hey, hey, hey. Ben's just part of the revolving door, all right? You can't fault him, right? Yeah, everyone's self-interested at the end of the day, I guess. How much did that piss you off?

Let's expand on this. Go deeper into Ben Lossie. You seem like this person in particular perturbs you. Yeah, let's just say I actively tried to see what the cost of spinning Bitcoin-related service up in New York, and it was just a little uh it's really steep it's crazy you gotta drop at least 500 grand it's so fucked up the bit license is so fucked up and then he joined the ripple board afterwards motherfucker it says he's protecting consumers with the bit license yeah i think like the 500 thousand dollar uh mark is like really conservative because that's just the fees for processing

everything but like honestly you gotta have the capital to back it up in case you lose funds you got to have uh you know all these legal fees you're going to be paying it's going to be upwards of two million dollars you know tell me what kid in their bedroom is going to be able to scrap together two million dollars to start up a bitcoin startup in new york state it's not going to happen and then you can't compete with the guys who like like let's say you're running you're like you're trying to create like the best online arcade that there is and you accept bitcoin like you can't compete with someone launching it somewhere else because you have to kyc people for like five dollar transactions you have all this regulatory burden on top we had to squash a game

that dj wanted to build a stacking sats game i was like no i'm not sending anybody money or like creating any quasi gambling thing on our website while we're in new york state company yeah i mean around the bid license i almost started something like that and then the bid license passed i was like now i'm just gonna stick with my fiat job for a while yeah i know that feeling but yeah the new york bitcoin community is is rivaled maybe only by a few communities in the world and uh props to uh the guys at bit devs and pierre for really nurturing that and now we're losing pierre to austin so we all we all in new york need to step up our game and keep nurturing it austin absolutely austin might take the number one spot once he moves down

there powerful austin bitcoin community well i'll never admit it i know the noted megazord is forming you know put those guys in the same city it's gonna get dangerous so uh yeah they'll have a citadel in a few years time that's the key we're just all building out our citadel networks i'm really looking forward to bitstein's uh you know little ranch where he's gonna have his blue grass band or his big brass band playing to his cattle it's gonna be incredible i'm really looking forward to what those two guys do we need to bring back grazing cattle freaks it is an actionable thing we can do to uh to put more oxygen in the atmosphere you know cows they graze they eat grass they they help uh prevent monoculture then they move on and then they do that somewhere else and

more grass comes and at the uh end of a couple grazing periods you have some more oxygen in the world no factory farming that was my uh grazing cattle tangent there i'm totally with you marty all right i had one drink of this moonshine it's hit me already it'll do it to you especially if you're not used to it i was like drinking this stuff pretty much every day at lunch when we were on the island of zagintos and oh man i got into a real good groove just walking out from the restaurant onto the beach and what's the what's the greek day like oh man well let me tell you yeah you'll wake up at 10 you know get to work 11 30 uh run the shop till like 2 p.m then you have a little afternoon siesta

sort of Spanish style till like 3.30, 4. You know, it depends. Everyone's got their own real thing going on. I fucking love that lifestyle. I did like 15 days in Spain a couple years ago.

I didn't want to leave by the end. But I also thought I was having a heart attack because I was eating so many fatty meats and cheese and bread and smoking a shit ton of cigarettes. Uncle Marty gets very cigarette trigger happy when he gives it up. yeah it's crazy over there it's like what less than four euro a pack yeah thank god i'm not

smoking anymore i would really have gone through a couple uh packs in greece for sure you know a european dart never killed anybody you know it's probably killed a couple million but we'll just gloss over that ah so what else do you want to talk about like what what's exciting you outside of lightning right now are you worried about uh anything uh at the protocol level of bitcoin are you excited for the prospect of bip taproot or snore and all that shit yeah taproot and snore they just all have so much promise uh you know i'm really uh just eager to see that stuff get fleshed out in the next couple of years uh but you know alas we gotta stay patient you know

These are things that you don't want to add in haphazardly. There are steps to it. Yeah, there's so much going on on the protocol level. I mean, as we go on, it feels like things are sort of stagnant. Things sort of calcify. But there's still amazing innovations coming on. That's what we were saying. We had the fork wars to fight about, and we had the ICOs to shit on,

and it feels like we're in this weird lull where nobody has anything to fight about. like what the hell's going on just going at each other because we were just bored yeah it's like come on guys at the end of the day we're all working towards the same thing you know like there'll be another real thing to talk about soon enough we just got to chard water until then what do you think it is do you know what it is no i'm just saying it's just anybody's guess i don't know what it is what i'm like talking to uh axa bilderberg and they let they let me know ahead of time i don't know you just gave me you just gave me a weird look like i know some shit's about to go down um i mean i i think yeah i mean it should be interesting i'm not sure it always

catches you off guard i think i mean i guess the block size didn't that like took a while and boiled over and that was like kind of known yeah and some child porn but the ico shit came out of nowhere okay so based on like did it come out of nowhere i think so but did you think like you thought ethereum was gonna hit 1500 and like neo is gonna go wherever neo went and xrp was gonna hit like three and i didn't think that was gonna like that that cnbc was gonna be like talking about like digibyte and shit i don't know you guys are uh excited for chain link to a thousand dollars yeah what the fuck was chain link was that like a 4chan it just launched right uh it's no i think it was around since last year like a meme blockchain or something like that uh no it's

not a mean blockchain they're trying to solve the oracle problem and it's a erc667 token variation on erc20 um i'm not going to say anything mean about chain link i'm going to say that it's very very difficult to solve the oracle problem that all these people are trying to solve because at the end of the road no matter how brilliant your software setup is or how brilliant you think the incentives are you're gonna have to trust someone at the end of the day because this isn't you know data derived from the blockchain or values within that system this is from it's like external is it a solvable problem i don't think it's a solvable problem no no i don't think it's solvable i mean best of luck to them this is what auger tried to solve yeah yeah just for the freaks

out there yeah it's very similar to auger in particular their markets got way fucked up immediately you get people gaming their markets pretty pretty heavily in the beginning right yeah and this is like the same issue that maker dao has right like the oracle the oracle problem is that if your smart contract or whatever relies on an outside data source that can't be found on the chain then you need someone to report that data yeah so a good a good example is sports like if you have somebody betting on sports and you need the final score of the game uh to execute the bet uh you have an oracle who has you have espn uh cnn or not cnn um who else keeps scores fox sports whoever they're yahoo they're oracles and they put up the final final score so you need

something like that to uh put the final score into these markets to uh right yeah so the issue finding one that's like actually trust minimized where you don't have like a third party that you have to trust the biggest problem like these systems can these systems that claim to be solving the Oracle problem that's my biggest worry about these systems is that they can grow to such an extent and

they're successful for an extended period of time because the the incentive to attack them is not there yet but once you get a bunch of money onto these systems and it is worthwhile to attack these these oracles um that's when you'll see them finally getting attacked right and it'll be too late at that point yeah absolutely and you know with these oracles you don't know when they could

potentially go rogue you know they could do a sort of exit scam like thing like a bad uh dark net seller where they're like okay yeah we've been giving you the score of the next game or whatever the hell uh you know honestly and accurately for the last three years but you know maybe we change the results on the day we know the results going to be fixed a certain way and we run away with a buttload of money yeah or just even it doesn't have to be malicious like imagine if like the maker dow oracles just reported the eth price incorrectly for like a sustained period of time like by accident like there could just be a just have margin calls for no reason yeah it could just it could just be because you're still the the key with with reducing third party

risk isn't just the third party being malicious right it's also the third party being negligent not even yeah totally that's always a risk i so i have a good question for you if you were going to if you were a major world government and you were trying to kill bitcoin how would you do it yeah yeah okay so security researcher right seems like a good fit um Yeah, let's really pop on the tinfoil hats for this one, boys. What do you think? And my tinfoil hat is on. If you're a government official, please turn off the podcast now.

Thank you. I know you're all listening. I know you're all listening. Trump, turn it off. Yeah, I know Barron's working with the computers. Barron's a big fan. Okay, so the biggest way for... Well, the thing is, you know, there'd be so much coordination involved.

But let me keep it simple. My biggest concern right now is the amount of back doors and commercial chips right now. From Intel Management Engine to, heck, what's it called, the Rock 64 chips have a version of it, and the Raspberry Pis, and AMD chips. They all can be back doored with these sort of systems. Like Management Engine, pretty much the idea behind it

is you have a fleet of Intel computers, And you want to roll out configuration change to it or software update to the whole fleet at once. So, yeah, the chip manufacturers have built in this, you know, essentially a backdoor in which you can gain complete access to the computer. So, you know, what percent of Bitcoin nodes are running on open hardware? something like uh complete open alternative like open power that um luke dasher has uh been plugging a bit um you know not many i think it's it's definitely less than one percent it's like 50 people right it's like 50 people i was actually uh i met andrew desantis a couple years ago and it was before lightning was launched and we were

talking about his biggest fear was that is like we all go to lightning and every hardware device and chip is backdorable and you have the situation where a lot of the economic activity moves to lightning and then again going back to incentives to attack a network that creates the incentive to to finally backdoor these systems yeah but you know while this is a huge concern of mine you know the actual difficulties in executing something exactly ridiculous what are the what of the logistics that would that have to happen to to attack these systems in this way you know like well first of all at what scale are we doing about attacking them all at once or are you attacking you know the tens of thousands of bitcoin nodes all at once is there i don't know

is that possible um we're trying to kill bitcoin here yeah so if you just take down a couple nodes you're not killing bitcoin yeah i mean from technical perspective it is and it's taking down all the nodes killing bitcoin anyway because cold storage would still be fine yeah so you know everyone would still have a copy of the most recent blockchain right that's true you can't you can't kill all of them you would have to kill every single one right so you know really from a more practical standpoint an attack you want to do would probably be ideological it probably be something in the form of bch or bsv and then uh that combined with you know sort of the fud we saw the last few days where you know child pornographers are using bitcoin and then

driving that home despite you know these arrests happening mostly a year ago did they happen a year ago they just announced it yep and one fucked up again a fact that we should reiterate we said it on rabbit hole recap tonight you said there was three hundred thousand dollars over three years yeah and there's like two billion in daily transactions a day for just bitcoin in general and then the site only had 300k over three years worth of bitcoin so like let's not paint all bitcoin yeah i mean it's just a stupid argument because i think most people can see past the guys like you think bitcoin's the preferred currency of child pornographers but i think they they this is going to get it's going to be reoccurring like yeah i mean we're going to have terrorist attacks

that are financed by bitcoin and stuff and or they don't even have to be financed by bitcoin they just have to say they're financed by didn't that just happen in germany yeah were they using bitcoin and 3d print guns like were they really yeah the synagogue shooter was it did he use bitcoin he got he got a donation from someone in bitcoin i don't know if he used they couldn't use like when or something i know right like come on dude well it's crazy the future is gonna get weird and matt i know we're here interviewing evan but i want to bring up the tweet that you tweeted out the other day about the future will be built on open software and hardware right unprintable hardware no printable hardware and unprintable money yes um like the 3d printing

stuff it's scary but it's here it's not going away like yeah unfortunately um is it the toothpaste is out of the tube on that one what do you see proliferating from that are you into 3d printing at all is that fascinate you the hardware aspect of it or oh absolutely um you know i haven't really dived into it too deeply um i certainly want a 3d printer i feel like it's becoming more infeasible more feasible every year as the cost of getting one of these good ones really comes out um what's a good printer going for it used to obsolete so quickly i was like i'm very proud of my low time preference in this particular in that particular industry because i came so close over the last like four years to buying one over and over again and just every time i was like i'm gonna wait till

next year you're gonna be the dude buying a 50 000 big screen tv dude next bull run my 3d printer is gonna be fucking legit well i'm gonna come over and test that out i gotta um but yeah it's sort of like with asics you know like a lot of innovation at first sort of tampers off um yeah i don't know what the 3d printing stuff is the gun stuff is really scary i'd really like to see someone focus on the other end of it uh maybe do some you know 3d printed uh vests or defense tools you know i mean if all those are defense tools that's true too but you know i would like to see someone do like focus on kevlar or you know other sort of devices in that you know realm like maybe uh you know 3d printed drones or tools like that have that especially if you include

like cnc like metal cutting yeah programic programic metal cutting yeah that's a whole other uh beast really the cnc stuff versus like we kind of just group that into 3d printing now yeah i know i know people sort of lump it together and that's uh it's fucking fascinating i want a 3d printer i just want to print like regular household shit i just think it'd be fun um you could be print tftc swag we can we do need more swag but it's like he has more swag than us his humble little app yeah how much stickers yeah how you had swag in us the stickers are dope yeah i got a die cut of the logo oh man the logo is great i paid five dollars for it on fiverr you didn't pay with bitcoin no unfortunately questionable no my uh are you really in this

to win it did listen i mean i guess my guy in thailand uh there's a new bitcoin site i was talking to someone about it that was uh like fiverr it's like fiverr but with bitcoin with lightning specifically um so you know you work for a security firm what are like the weirdest attacks or like the the attacks that you're uh protecting your clients against from one of the most common one are you allowed to talk about it or yeah sure let's talk about it a little bit um so um do they vary a lot or are you guys securing one specific oh there's total variance and you know our system is designed to catch you know variation of attacks so i would say like the most common thing you're going to see is like a spear phishing you know the easiest way least

technical least cost is to just send fake emails to the organization and see what you could uh whittle up from there absolutely you know you don't have to spend money on a on a zero day that's going to cost you know hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars and uh you're just trying to exploit fallible humans so you're saying you can buy zero days on the black market oh yeah absolutely that's common i didn't know that i thought it was just people found them and Well, I mean, you're not going to go on, like, tour and, like, go to zero-day-exploits.blah-blah-blah-dot-onion. Yeah, there's totally security researchers out there that have zero days for all sorts of platforms and are willing to sell them to the highest bidding, you know, private security company or government

or just whoever's willing to pay the most. What's that underground like? It's, like, kind of in the open. it's like one of the coolest things about it is that you can kind of extrapolate how secure a platform is like how much people are willing to pay for a zero day right would you say that the more the less secure the the more expensive the more secure absolutely okay because you can't get in if there's like a bunch of ways to get into a platform then you're not going to pay top dollar for it right yeah so i guess the most popular point around this lately was um android versus

ios as far as the you know cost of zero days has gone and i feel like uh it flipped right it flipped from ios being the most expensive to android being the most expensive the first time ever and the reasoning behind a lot of that is that android has so many different variations on their devices all the manufacturers have different nuances in their software and their hardware to have, like, there's no real one-size-fits-all solution. Your hack is going to be targeted to, like, a certain kind of phone. Whereas with iOS and iPhone, it might be possible, because they're all using the same exact version of the software, more or less,

to, you know, buy one exploit and hit an iPad, iPhone, from all these different generations all at once. Yeah, the fappening. You just hit them all at once. Oh, man. Well, the fappening was spearfishing, right? uh yes i think so um yeah don't hold me to that 100 but i think it was spearfishing yeah and ah fuck i had a question what was i gonna say um that that guy's in jail how many years have you got uh i don't know i think it's like 15 years he did something how did he get caught again

wasn't he taunting them or something no i feel like he was trying to blackmail and do a little ransom action like that? I remember what I was going to ask. Is this an argument for multiple implementations? Can this equate to Bitcoin development and stuff like that? Oh, certainly. I mean, there's so many benefits you get by multiple implementations. I mean, yeah, perhaps you'd have a better product

if you just had one implementation and all the devs were working on that, but then it's just not practical. People with different ideas are going to implement things in different ways. and you know i really think it's generally a net benefit to have these different options you know like let's say there's an exploit for one of the implementations and all those nodes get knocked down well at least you have seven other implementations and all of those nodes stay up and maintain the network and yeah i understand the arguments against it like let's go through them what are they uh so you have more implementations you have less eyes uh in the

same place so your eyes are more central I was looking at different stuff you know that that means the code is gonna be a little less thorough more chance for exploits less cohesion you're gonna have a lot of errors where the implementations are incompatible because you know stuff happens like that but generally speaking I largely think that you know diversity is good in this space and the benefits outweigh the cons. You would say it's different for layer one and layer two, right? Because layer one, the main issue with multiple implementations

is consensus issues, right? And we don't have that issue with Lightning as much. Yeah, it's a different animal altogether, I would say. Yeah. And there's different tolerances for it at different levels in the stack, for sure. it's like if uh if we had it basically 50 50 between two implementations on layer one and they had a consensus split like which is the true side that's an interesting point no that's

a good thing like is there uh i'm going to use this term correct i don't think so so i'm not going to use it is there like a distribution at which like core has like 70 percent libitcoin as 10 and knots and whatever down from there make up the rest is that sufficient yeah but then what if core goes one way and libitcoin and knots goes the other so it goes 30 70 whose fault was the consensus but yeah no it's a good point but and then like this is what eric bosco said like you can't and what you were alluding to earlier people are going to have different ideas they're going to do it so how knowing having that in mind that no matter what you may argue for which would be some a lot of people would argue for a single implementation people are it's open source

software and they're able to do it it's a good question yeah that's one of the funny things about dealing in the space and dealing with software and oss you know uh you don't have a say in the matter you know like how many times was bitcoin core forked and turned to shit and satoshi didn't have any say in the matter so you know similarly i mean you know obviously it's a much smaller project uh you know uh the equivalent the equivalent of it is not quite the same but um you know i'm dealing with some people talking to me about forking zeus and what do you feel about that it's like listen man i really have no say in the matter if you want to do it you can do it and if i think it's good at the end of the day and i like it i'll promote it

sure why not or if it's really good i'm gonna refactor it and push it upstream to zeus and you can't you can't stop that either so what's that like what is a good amount of ego in this space right like how like obviously we all want to get ours right you want to fucking build a dope app that everybody fucking uses we want to build a dope podcast newsletter that everybody listens to and reads but at the end again it's a meritocracy and i think about this often like is there a point at which like uh somebody's better than me do i just not drop out but like acknowledge it yeah i'm a little drunk off the moonshine right now uh no first of all you know we just got to stay humble this is going to be a long journey um it's going to

take decades absolutely right but um I'm already a decade in my life I've spent not a decade but a good chunk of one decades yeah long run baby long run we're all all of us here are definitely in for it and we know what we're getting ourselves into but you know as far as saying like who's better than you know another like okay personally i think tftc is the best podcast in the universe thank you sir you know it's very very honored and uh you know privileged to be on here but you know by what metrics you know in some other metric you might not be so good and a different podcast you know might also be good to listen to too it doesn't have to be a winner wins all thing no exactly except for in money well that's the thing that uh safe and i were talking about in the interview

that aired today is value is subjective right like people like different things in different ways of the observer and that's actually what we're trying to do with bitcoin right is like give people the ability to imbue their subjective value and what they want and the best way to do that is to provide an apolitical neutral money that anybody can use to uh put forward their values right yeah absolutely i mean like we all like the principles underlying bitcoin at the end of the day but if we just you know decreed by fiat let's say you know marty got declared president and we forced everyone to use bitcoin that wouldn't be so cool really if we just forced people into it that people couldn't voluntarily associate with bitcoin that would be pretty lame in my eyes i

think that's part of the beautiful thing about it like we don't choose who our family is we don't choose which country we're born in and you know prior to this thing we didn't choose what our primary form of monetary exchange was but now we can you can opt in and it's all voluntary and it the second that bitcoin isn't for you or your values change you can walk away that's it yeah and people have walked away for now you can walk away for now yeah they'll be back No, I'm just saying, like, in the future, what other option are you going to have? Well, that brings up a good discussion about, like, we're Bitcoiners who really like to shit on shit coins. But, like, are we hypocritical for shitting on, like, who are we to be pissed?

Yeah, that's the thing. Like, you know, as much as I'd like to slam dunk on things, at the end of the day, like, you know, everyone, well, you know, there's obviously going to be nefarious actors. But generally speaking, people are trying to do the right thing and work towards what they think is right. So, you know, when we go and we try to challenge the claims of altcoiners, we got to do so, one, respectfully, and two, you know, with facts. Yeah, logic has to prevail, right? Yeah, we can't be saying, oh, you're an asshole, you're dumb shit, whatever. That only will get you so far. but if you're able to um outmaneuver your opponent with logic right that's one thing i like seeing

you hop into twitter that saw you hop into joe weisenthal's today oh joe weisenthal joe is awesome i think joe said we met him at uh josh's beefsteak shout out to josh love josh beefsteak josh he's the man uh you know also a member of the citadel helped us put together the whole workshop without him it wouldn't have worked yeah yeah but uh yeah joe weisenthal showed up i think uh josh invited him and we got to talk a little briefly but um man it was great seeing him uh he's always got great stuff on twitter going he's like he's a great troll he's unbelievable and yeah he's like he's just like it's like a stream of salmon this twitter and he's just got this huge net cast out and i'm like oh shit i got caught in joe's net again and i it's not my first time at the rodeo

but like he knows how to push the right buttons and the right knobs and he's just a just a brilliant guy all around he's got odd lots and he's awesome on bloomberg i have a lot of respect for joe i do as well i've been a big fan of joe his career trajectory actually he's somebody who started out writing a newsletter on markets and wound up like on bloomberg like talking about what he was writing about it's very inspirational in that regard but then yeah if you guys haven't checked out the episode with joe we recorded like way over a year at this point um last summer it's very good he's uh a lot he triggers a lot of bitcoiners people get really pissed off at him but i think once you meet him you know that he's intentionally trying to troll and i think like

today his thread brought up very good points and we i agree with what he said like we need better privacy no his phrasing yeah well he intentionally chose he's trying to trigger everybody yeah yeah it's all by design but you know joe's heart's in the right place um but you know he if he doesn't use bitcoin actively he will be soon enough joe i know you're listening you will submit you know it was funny that he did he did successfully call out like in the process he like triggered a lot of the more hardcore bitcoiners but like who he was targeting was like our bitcoiners and suits like our suits division and they he was correct in that and he he basically got them to like paint it for him is that they have to avoid all the controversial

shit about bitcoin and paint it as this like really great like gold 2.0 settlement network which it is but just that right and not that like the dark money private money type of thing and it's just like the dirty little secret of our industry like we all know it we all know that these guys go up on cnbc and um ignore that aspect and they say bitcoin is like perfectly easy to trace or whatever um but then like behind closed doors they're like it's important that you can use it privately otherwise it has no value yeah yeah absolutely i think we got a good rise out of one of the winklevi twins because they're running the gemini like tweets like a fucking pre-teen he's like doing you for you like just a letter you yo i'm working on getting them on the pod

right hey listen let's give him the benefit of the doubt there's limited characters on twitter you know this wouldn't have happened on facebook yeah but not only did he not only did he tweet like that with that grammar he used the number four for four uh it just like triggered me but also his comment triggered me too his comment was like if you've been to chain analysis you know that like this is every he's like he's like private bitcoin transactions are a thing of the past there's nothing to do with what bitcoin gives value like he was completely off yeah yeah that's not true at all he wasn't one there are some like are better suits that go out on cnbc and stuff matt's getting matt's getting very passionate right now picking up on the levels

they know they know uh that they're like kind of peddling shit a little bit about bitcoin being completely transparent but cameron with that tweet he doesn't know he's just he's lost the a little bit yeah i mean the reality is it's nuanced right it's uh pseudonymous right right but it's all about how you interact with it and uh how you manage your utxos at the end of the day which determine whether your actions on it are really going to end up being anonymous at the end of the day but that's really fucking difficult yeah you can't convey that in this so like have you ever had a utxo sometimes i have a utxo where i'm just like i'm not really positive where this came from not sure how it got there what what is for do i just are those sats dead to me are they

worth it to me do i try and reclaim this like you're trying to like level this in your head and if you fuck up that leveling process six years down the line it could be used to link a bunch of things to you and you're fucked yeah absolutely you got to be mindful of how much it is where you potentially got it from when you got it you know how you potentially use it like all these different factors so you know part of it is um you know labeling your utxos which wasabi does very well you know like they make it the default yeah you have to you have no choice it's part of the flow yeah you can't have it's like not a another while it's not a very uh obvious process either or it's not very obvious that you should be living here I think I got

Casa to do it I think they're about to do it boss but all every wallet should have labeling and I think I actually like wasabi's that they force you like samurai for instance has labeling but you have to like go into the UTXO menu and label it after the fact I that flow makes a lot of sense to me what is this receive address for type it in press generate you got it yeah it's uh it's pretty foolproof there but i think that there's a lot of confusion still after the fact like okay i i've mixed my uh you know all my bitcoin and they're all in these little bundles they're split point one btc each right but then what's the proper procedure for doing it afterwards 10 million saps 10 million

sass yeah i mean that's the issue and that's what samurai tries to solve with their post mix tools uh like cahoots yeah it's so nuanced there's so many and at the end of the day it takes so much active thought by the individual right about the user that's the issue yeah you don't really want to be worrying about this when you're making a transaction at the end of the day it's like do i have the money to make the transaction or not that's why that's why like a future with something like p2ep like entices me a lot But apparently there are some drawbacks with the way you need to construct that transaction. It's not very UX friendly.

But if you were to make every transaction a coin join, basically, where the recipient has to create an output as well, you mix up. That makes a lot of sense. You need them both to be online, right? Yes, that's the problem. That's what it is. It's a pretty big drawback. yeah but just uh definitely a big drawback but uh just structurally thinking of a way in which we can achieve product like something like that what with not having people not have to be online

that could work really well with something like btc pay or something yeah right because you're paying a store you're online you're paying right they're online because they're running a lightning note anyway and they have to serve you an invoice yeah um that makes it at the same point you could just pay them in lightning that's true yeah yeah do you think yeah so will a lot of this activity be moved to to lightning will we have the uh just settlement transactions on the protocol one one of the under discussed things about lightning paying for something in lightning is even if you go through the whole process of not buying your coins through kyc which is hard as it is especially at scale um you go through like all the privacy hygiene and stuff one underappreciated thing that

people don't realize is when you pay for things in Bitcoin, it can be tied to personal identifiable information. And whether that's a shipping address, whether that's an email address, whether that's an IP address, whether that's some kind of cookies in your browser or whatever, some tracking token. And then after you pay them, you get change. And that change in most wallets isn't labeled, as we were saying before. And then two years down the line, you forget what that UTXO is and that it's linked to your identity and you merge it with other things. With Lightning, there's no change when you when you make that transaction even if that specific transaction is tracked because they have like watching nodes or whatever that there's no change there that's

just sitting around just waiting to link you it's a very good point and uh no it is like are we do you think it's possible that we are so early on that these are problems that uh may not be problems like maybe socially like people yeah no you always have chain analysis but like do you think we'll have to worry about this stuff as much in the future i guess that's the question i'm trying to get at well let's get easier we'll get more uh intuitive will uh there have to be less men will there be less mental costs basically i think that's an inevitability i mean i think first we're gonna have uh you know all these brilliant people are coming up with solutions to add privacy to the puzzle but you know we're also seeing the rate of innovation for these apps

that the end user is uh you know interacting with it's just feels like a cambrian explosion of sorts as far as just think like a year ago think of like where we were two years ago think about you really have incredible tools at our disposal thinking about trying to use the dime bag exactly a year ago i didn't have i wasn't on lightning yet a year ago yeah i didn't know you a year ago i met you a little bit before that a year and a half ago we missed we missed the anniversary was yeah wasabi had just launched i think samurai wouldn't whirlpool wouldn't launch for another five months or four months it's amazing you know i heard about wasabi for the satellites launched at this point yet oh yeah it was one of the one of the one of the best

wasabi shows there is wasabi yeah the satellite i'm not sure how old that's been satellites less than a year right yeah it's definitely the the shit post element of the satellite is very new that was hilarious presenting the sat node at peru college and they were like what's it used for like mainly shit posting right now mainly mainly alt coiners paying in lightning to talk shit on lightning it's so funny it's great i think it's the best advertisement going back to shilling wasabi i mean the biggest issue we have with bitcoin privacy is that our main tool for it is coin join and lightning helps a lot because you can coin join and then open channels with it on like a tor note or something and then maybe you won't have to coin join in the future again but

issue with coin join is it costs us fees to do it minor fees transaction fees and is liquidity right we need more people to use it so it's actually one of those elements of bitcoin where i mean we have an incentive to show it but people need to show it right like we need like if you're a proper bitcoiner you should be mixing your coins you should be providing liquidity to other bitcoiners who need it right like yeah absolutely it's like running a node almost yeah for sure civic duty civic duty and um never mind we'll avoid that no we should appreciate you avoiding it okay i don't know we're avoiding but i think you probably had a good gut reaction yeah it was a good gut reaction but no there's a lot of like

that's the thing like there's so many things to take into consideration here's what i'll say There's so many things to take into consideration right now. I often wonder, like, all right, I should preface this with we should always trend towards being hyper-adversarial and hyper-skeptical. Always, yeah. But, like, it seems like it's working, right? Like, maybe, like, are we, like, too paranoid? Like, are the problems we see as huge problems right now going to be huge problems in the future? Almost nobody is using CoinJoin right now.

i think that's part of our thinking with uh running into the workshop and having a focus on you know cold card wasabi it's just really to help us out first and foremost like let's get the people who are coin joining let's give them a bigger anonymity set let's let's get as many people into this as we can well it's pretty funny in the workshop we sybil attacked the testnet network the testnet wasabi server just like the whole class all joined in and it was two people per so if some other guy was in there like we just knew everything yeah so whereas the main net has like what up to 100 if it hits 100 it goes for every two hours i mean the the big thing with wasabi was we got bull bitcoin which boosts liquidity a lot um but it does appear like

it's getting sybil attacked right now so it's questionable how much of um how much anonymity it's providing well no yeah i mean also like how much of the bitcoin going in is like actual individuals yeah or or reverse or attacker right yeah because um they merge outputs after the fact they can reduce well then you have an ability then you have stupid fucking users like that dude who moved 12 000 bitcoin like off wobi into into wasabi yeah and like re-merged all his outputs after oh my god that could have been an attack but why would you do that on like from an exchange why wouldn't you like that just seemed like that just seemed like this fucking idiot it just seemed like yeah i mean you don't want to attribute to malice what can

easily be attributed to stupidity in most cases the end result is the same because it doesn't matter even for him if if he didn't merge then it could have been a silent attack because he knew all of his own outputs but by merging then anyone could use that data to reduce everyone else's anonymity set right that's the only difference like if you didn't merge then he still knew yeah his utx especially if the the attack comes when you run multiple clients you have like six computers eight computers then all of a sudden you know 15 of the people in the this is why are you this is why they charge a fee besides that they want to make money but the idea is that like the attacker is resistant it's like yeah the same idea is like lightning network

where the attacker has to pay into the network in order to do it. I mean, when we were talking about attack from the U.S. government, we were talking about just a major world government. I mean, I see the attack as at least the first step. I mean, I think the forks might have been an attack. I think they might have been trying to increase the block size to reduce node count and stuff like that and create division when that didn't work.

Just mess up the resilience of the network. you know you have bigger blocks naturally less people are going to run nodes and it's going to be easier to attack but the next round of attacks is going to be already on this next year's tax form we're going to have to check a box that says that we've sent received owned whatever interacted with bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency so that's the first disclosure and then starting from here what's going to happen is they're going to slowly get to the point where we have to disclose every address all our balances all that stuff and and the question is going to be at that point are we gonna fucking stand up and say fuck you i deserve some financial privacy you don't

have any business knowing all this shit fuck off well that'll only work if no if people stand up sack up and fucking fight for your right for financial freedom and if they have the proper tools to actually cover their tracks because if they don't if they don't but no saying fuck you and writing it into like an indelible i'm not worried about the tools i'm more worried about the people standing up and saying fuck you i'm i've i'm confident the tools will be there i'm not as confident that people won't have the balls to stand up for the rights we need to get coin drawing apathy that's my biggest worry for bitcoin and i don't think if you like like how do we how do we get people like fucking cognizant of the fact that they have to worry about the shit like

our the future of our digital world we are transitioning into a digital age and we have one or two ways we can go we can be completely surveilled we can be fucking cows on a digital panopticon or we can do the hard work it's not going to be easy it's going to be a lot harder it's going to be exponentially harder but it's going to be fucking worth it and we are literally at this turning point and again i'm not worried about the tools not being there i'm worried about people just rolling over and that like how do we light a fire under everybody's eyes i'm saying is uh being i'm not yelling at you i'm just getting like fucking fired up on the moonshine being able to being able to deny that you that you use and own bitcoin um is way more defensible

and harder to beat down from a societal angle than them knowing exactly how much you have how you spend i agree you're just saying fuck you to them right like that's the key i agree 100 i agree you got to back it up with action like make it hard for them yeah you tell the feds like oh i've lost it in like a boating accident and i'm not saying individually you go to the irs your irs agent be like no i'm not doing this i'm saying we need a conversation to happen in around the world there needs to be a public discourse about this right about what kind of world we want to live in and what kind of world we want to leave for our children right and they're it's not happening dude public disclosures are going to be the easiest thing

like why wouldn't they no discourse so you need people to talk about the problem i know but i'm saying regardless like it's it's it's going to come down to the same exact like people were saying they didn't want their swiss bank accounts to be disclosed right like they had to disclose them like the the u.s government has precedent here this is like a i'm surprised i get all this already i understand all this but it has gotten to a point where it's like i'm proverbially trying to shake everybody right now billy madison shaking you i'm not saying stay here as long as possible i'm saying wake the fuck up like again we have a decision to make we can be complacent roll over and roll into a fucking hellscape of a future where we can fight for something where

people have freedom and it's all about freedom at the end of the liberty like i don't know what it is about like who i am but i just have like a visceral hatred for authority not hatred but that physically shake when somebody tries to tell me what to do or dictate what i do in my life it's not hatred it's it's you know it's a questioning it's evaluating can't have hate in your heart can't have hate in your heart freaks it's all about peace and love but no again the moonshine's getting me more proud but it's like yeah it's uh yeah it's moonshine so moonshine's moonshine's a passionate drunk it's a passionate drunk it's quite good yeah um no it's like a visceral like just like something is not right that's the way i'll put it i think

that's the difference between us and the altcoiners i feel like bitcoiners are um somewhat philosophically driven whereas altcoiners are just trying to increase the fiat denominated value in their bank accounts i don't disagree so what philosophically like what are the pillars of your philosophical leanings towards Bitcoin? I think it all stems essentially from this understanding or this belief rather that humans are inherently good, that we're put on this earth for a reason, that we thrive when we have opportunities,

when we have freedoms, um and when those things are taken away uh things get quite ugly and our opportunities go away and the overall health of the society diminishes i would say yeah this is what we're dealing with freaks are you guys as worried as i am about like the apathy part uh yeah because you see it everywhere and even with real issues that affect people today whether it be hong kong or what's going on in yemen or you know even various nobody talks about yemen thank you for bringing up yemen yeah it's really messed up but but even stuff that happens in in the states that could affect anyone people don't want to worry about it at the end of the day people just want to go home at the end of

the day after working nine to five and put on their favorite soap or whatever and drink their line not worry about so yeah apathy is you know a huge hurdle i would say i would counter with two points uh the first point is there's very few things people care more about than their money so there's a very powerful incentive here okay that you don't see with other systems and then the second thing is we really just need a super hyper engaged uh like minority just like a really you know super passionate group of highly engaged people and that's like what we is that us yeah that's what we foster on like bitcoin twitter and on you know irc and telegram and podcasts and yeah absolutely and stuff right it's 100 and we're really you know is it enough like what's

the ratio there we don't need enough can we just have like one of 20 people just be hyper whatever that's a lot 5% hey listen it was only what like 3% of the revolutionaries that took up arms

against the British and that's all it took that's a good point that's a very good point so maybe we might be overshooting it yeah 3%ers

there you go shout to them so it's 3 3% is like 1 in 20 1 in 27 or something yeah

I'm trying to think about how many people in the world what is there 8 billion right now 1 in 33 that's alright it's the moonshot oh fuck we're not yeah yeah we're not too good at math here

we're working on it it's all right um god damn it no but i do feel am i just wasting my breath like getting all pat like getting all worked up about this shit like is it i'm just gonna be fucking fighting against the current trying to get people to care yeah i mean i was trying to tell my cousin this because he's very passionate too um stop trying to red pill people so much and start working on the defense system for zion i feel because the either someone wants to hear this this red pilling of you know the values that we want to promote or they don't like it's not gonna you're not gonna move someone over like you're not being very humble thinking that you can move mountains like that so i think we we

make more of an impact in our actions than our words i would say and we need to keep acting in a manner that are gonna that's gonna promote promote the values that we have i think that's very eloquently put i love that uh stop trying to feed people red pills and start building zion's defenses i've never heard that one dude yeah i thought of it myself good i like that Zion would be a great name for a lightning app. Zion? It's holidays.

Better get the domain before Mac is out. Well, I mean, zion.com is definitely... With Odell, you know, he's got all the domains. Zion.com is definitely... I don't understand the chance.

No, yeah. No, I've definitely... I was that person trying to red pill people about Bitcoin at parties and all the time. But I've definitely taken the pedal off the metal

the last two, three years. So, Marty, what you need to do is just be... Let people know that you're there, you're available for them anytime they are willing to take the red pill, you're there to talk

to them about it and guide them in the right direction but why try to fight something that they don't want some people don't want to be unplugged that's my go-to right now, it is a lot less stressful you get into more better conversations

too, people stop avoiding you at family parties my issue now recently has been if they ask me what I do or like where i've been lately it's like oh i was in latvia why were you in latvia it's like oh i was i was at a bitcoin conference and then like at that point like you have no choice but to show bitcoin like why'd you well yeah but that's part of your actions too like and it makes them think like it would be one thing if matt was just a recluse in his bedroom

just reading about it all day but like matt is going to conferences now matt's talking to all these people matt's running a podcast now like it makes them think a little bit more than that too you know yeah no i i yeah i think uh i'm interested to see what my uh my family thinks of the real vision interview seem like i can't wait to watch some of the people like i think i'm gonna do a trial membership i'm interested to see if anybody for a dollar for three months i should see anybody from my old uh old work reaches out one person has already but like oh my god bitcoin marty is on real vision now it's like what the fuck even me like god my fucking face on that on that uh I'm not recording sorry for the fat face for you because I'm gonna stop drinking and wasn't a fat

face you look great thank you man I think yeah I mean I yeah I think you don't you don't focus on necessarily like pre-coiners you focus on the the people who are already here's a good question want to learn right what should we focus outside of bitcoin what uh parallel or tangential to bitcoin do you think is uh something that could be helpful to its success that we should be championing uh instead of thinking big scale how you're going to change the world or the country or new york state or the city think about as local as you can and think about uh the people you interact with on a daily basis and what your interactions with them are like and how you could organize locally to you know meet people with the same ideas with you i think the more direct and

more local your actions are the bigger of a real impact they are you know what drives this philosophy you're saying this is something that seems very well thought out in your mind you know i think it all goes around along with the decentralized nature of bitcoin um yours and just governments really like you're going to get more of an effect by going to your town's uh town hall meeting than you are a town hall meeting for new york city or new york state or occupy wall street where they're trying to solve or occupy wall street yeah sometimes you're just better off writing uh the software at home that people are going to interact with and trying to uh flood their minds with your viewpoint all right do more more action more action i have a completely

out of the box going back to the earlier conversation about Zeus so Zeus the whole point of Zeus is your mobile phone connected back to your routing node basically right or not necessarily a routing

node I guess it could just be like a private consumer node yeah it could just be your regular node but the idea is you have another node set up somewhere in the world that you'd like to connect to and use that as your home base to make transactions from right so um one of the cool things is you know like early on right in the beginning that functionality was available but it was only available on on your

local network right and now if you go through tor you can connect remotely wherever you are you can connect back to your node back at home right yep so do you think should people be concerned at all about the increased attack surface of having all the functionalities of their node on their phone is that something that what are your thoughts on that that is absolutely a concern to have i think passcodes don't use biometrics yeah you know um stuff like biometrics like your face and and your fingerprints, those aren't passwords. Those are usernames. You shouldn't be using them on anything really sensitive.

So, yeah, Zeus currently has a password function in there. It's not bulletproof. There's a couple bugs in there, but generally speaking, it'll keep your app secure. We're going to be iterating on that in version 0.1.2, hopefully. But, you know, there's still other things that can be done and should be done.

So specifically speaking to L&D, I am really, really, really looking forward to more customization over your macaroons, right? So, you know, let's say you're connecting to a game on Facebook and you want to do lightning transactions and it charges you every day to get some service. you probably don't want to give up your

macaroon that has full read and write access to your node to Facebook. That's ridiculous. That's what we were doing to, but that's what Jules' solution was that for a little bit. That's what Jules was doing. And Zeus right now, if you want to have the ability to send

payments right now, you have to give it the admin macaroon. But the things that they're working over on the L&D project, I think Roast Beef is trying to tackle this one too. is you're going to have these modular macaroons. So let's say in this hypothetical situation I painted with a Facebook app,

you might want to say, okay, give this app 1,000 sats a day, and then after that, cancel all transactions. And then from that macaroon, you'll also be able to potentially audit all the transactions that got made with it at the end of the day. And you're like, hmm, Facebook is charging me a couple hundred extra sats than they said they would originally. let me revoke the permissions from this mac rune altogether so I think

having more granular control over your node and more specifically the access control to your node is going to come a long way and I think that's going to come much sooner than later and I'm very much looking forward to it that seems

like it would be a huge improvement right because then you can just go into like set allowances or something like that go on a website granular permissions like we have on the phone and like it would be even easier like you would click the dime bag buy a thought button and it would just buy it you wouldn't even have to to fucking no in this case it'd be giving permissions to the app right so you'd still copy and paste or whatever but if

your extension had the but then i could say listen i'll only give in 100 sats to tftc a day and so i make sure matt and marty aren't running away with my full stash or whatever no but we wouldn't be pulling that from you right you'd be able to come to the site oh yeah of course in this scenario we're saying it's like a full application that you pass the whole macaroon to and you're not interacting with it with the wallet but still like you know let's say zeus hypothetically had a bugs or a backdoor or something it would be much more uh you know you'd be much more reassured to know that you're passing it a macaroon that has a limit as to how many sats you could spend a day or a week or a month etc on rather than giving the app the

you know full keys to the castle yeah i mean my thought was even like you know we spend all this time like building you spend all this time building like this node and it's all open source and you you try and do it all completely right and then you sync it with zeus on your iphone and you just run it all on a walled guard and like inside uh because you're on you're on iphone too right no i'm an android guy so so unfortunately at the moment uh to connect zeus end to end with tor you have to be on android but we are looking at some solutions for running tor within uh you know within zeus on ios you see what greenwald figured it out. Yeah, I was looking at Greenwallet's Swift code, and I think that's going to go a long way

for enabling Tor support on other wallets. Obviously, there's other nuances that it's got to cover. Like, for example, with Zeus, we like to use Tor hidden services, right? So you set up what port the Tor hidden service is on, and it will generate a Tor cookie for you. So if you don't have this cookie that's passed into Orbot, you can't access the service. It's going to look like it doesn't exist it's not going to reply at all um so there's some nuance into how that could be added on an ios app and you know we need to navigate that landscape but it seems like um there's going to be a lot of advancements with um tor built into ios apps and blockstream and uh green wallet really illustrated that this week which then how does zap do it on iphone um

don't quote me exactly I do not think that zap supports connections to tour dresses ready now it can it supports remote but not for tour it supports remote yeah our site yes so a lot of people right now are using this VPN like technology called zero tier to connect to think that's what they're using either that's what not all guys are using for a while right yeah I think think they've plugged that a whole bunch yeah i don't think i'm pretty positive our our zap uh you like scanned a qr code yeah it's gonna cure code that's all i did i mean you could still connect to tor nodes and have the node communicate on tor it's just that i don't think it's possible

to connect to your uh node from zap with tor right now but i think they're working on it i think uh i've seen them tweet about it yeah i mean the way i discovered your app was it was the android zap because they didn't have an Android app for the longest time and you didn't have an iPhone app for the longest time. You still don't have one. No, no, we do.

Oh, you have it. You just can't connect remotely, just local? You just can't connect remotely and to access the app right now, you need to go through TestFlight. It's not on iOS app store. Give me some access to that, bitch.

I know, man. The Apple restrictions are really crazy. For me to even get on the app store, I have to register as a company and you know zeus is a little early stages i'm not really sure where things are going to go exactly that's insane you have to be a registered company and then i think there's some other licenses you gotta have dude whereas google play i just sign up with my account i plug it drag the apk which is like the executable essentially onto the platform it uploads and it just works

it just works it's amazing even f droids less of a hassle where uh where can freaks help you where can they help me how can they help you how can they help me anywhere anywhere so uh we could use more people just using uh zeus they can download it from google play f droid if you've got an android and earn to open source software like that or they can get on our test flight you could access the links to all these things on zeusln.app if you're a programmer i would really appreciate uh if you went and tried and checked out the code if you had so any bugs file an issue on github um join us on telegram we're on telegram there's a link on the web page or you could join the group it's zeus ln zeus ln on twitter and uh yeah just if you like it spread

the word tell your friends about it and uh try it out and just give us feedback any feedback whether be positive or negative is always much appreciated in my book yeah well go ahead one more topic yeah you want to talk about the raspi blitz at all your experiences with that uh yeah raspi blitz you don't talk about it enough on the podcast raspi blitz then the uh is it the lightning implementation raspi blitz is a not lightning it's a it's a github project and tutorial on how to put together your own lightning network node so for 130 us roughly uh you get a i think last time i did it it was a raspberry pi 3 now they do it the four right oh they've upgraded excellent upgrade yeah so the one i bought was had a case a raspberry pi 3 a display which is

really nice touch uh then like uh spinning disk hard drive and this was like my first real lightning node um and you know after working with the project and talking to the maintainers we were actually able to get an integration there so i've got four really big integrations for zoo so raspi blitz noddle boss boss my node btc i just tried that yet i just learned about that this week no but i'm thinking about turning the raspi blitz pi into a my node btc i was listening to the podcast on stefan uh laveras and i've been poking into the group and it seems like he has like a full tour integration setup too so if you want to use zeus over tour i think that's a premium feature for them that seemed just at uh an arm's length that seemed like a very sexy setup very

modular very uh yeah it seems very simple the ui is straightforward um it's very affordable so if you want to get like the you know pre-built solution um it's only like 280 which is it comes pre-built comes pre-built i think he syncs it which you know there's trade-offs there if you don't if you want to unsync it and sync it yourself you can do that too do you think anyone should be using a spinning disc at the prices that ssds are right now no no no no no and that is my biggest Critique of the Raspberry Pi Blitz Is that spinning disk hard drive Especially with the amount of writes that you're doing to it

More prone to failure You are much better off Biting the bullet, spend a little bit more Get the solid state drive They're not that expensive anymore No, they come down like all the time now So like a 1TB is what, like $60? What's the difference between the two?

It's close One is a spinning disk It's much more affordable we've been using them in computers for uh you know decades now but since there's all these metal spinning components going on in them they're you know more likely to break you know you've got like a little needle that's reading and writing from it uh there's stuff to bound to get messed up whereas ssd is like completely flash nothing is moving at all you're just pumping uh pumping and they're way fucking slower yeah yeah and that's a huge bottleneck i would say when you

switch to an ssd when you're running a lightning node especially initial block download the initial block download the time it takes for that is goes down by by so much it's really significant to be honest you're going to save yourself a lot of headache you're going to save yourself from crashes i had my raspi blitz crash a couple times when it was on a spinning disk hard drive so yeah if you're serious about this and you want to interact with lightning and have a 24 7 node use an ssd and use static channel backups to like a usb you plug into there and now you're all wiser after having spoke to have included us evan fuck man you have any like parting notes like anything uh anything you want to freeze folks

song almost two hours in here this is my uh this has been a hell week for your boy here oh man i i've it's just been great like i was nervous about this but because honestly i'm a huge fan of the podcast like when i crushed it when i was building zeus you know how many episodes of fucking tftc i listened to it really helped push it along i'm sorry dude i'm sorry you had to listen to all my stupid thoughts no it's all right it was much appreciated every episode i learned a little something but um yeah I'd want to leave the freaks with a little parting note a little quote to just you know get the engine revving and try to stimulate some thoughts um this quote is by Ayn Rand I'm not the biggest fan of uh objectivism and her philosophy per se but

I think this quote really resonated with me and I would like to share it with everyone so it goes like this civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy the savage's whole existence is public and ruled by the laws of his tribe

civilization is the process of setting man free from men peace and love freaks