TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - Tales from the Crypt #60: Misir Mahmudov

Episode Date: February 26, 2019

Join Marty as he sits down with Bitcoin researcher Misir Mahmudov to discuss many topics including Bitcoin as Time, Bitcoin's amorality, Bitcoin's incentives, and family values. Follow Misir on Twitter: www.twitter.com/misir_mahmudov Follow Marty on Twitter: www.twitter.com/martybent Thanks to this week's sponsor, BlockFi! Head over to www.blockfi.com/talesfromthecrypt to see how you can avoid selling your BTC today!

Hey there, freaks. I hope all is well on this beautiful Tuesday morning at the end of February here in 2019. I have an incredible conversation with Monsieur Mamadab for you guys today. We dove deep into Bitcoin as time, the morality or perceived morality of Bitcoin or amorality of Bitcoin and a bunch of other topics. So you guys are going to love this one. But before we get to the interview, I would like to introduce you to our recurring sponsor, BlockFi. It's tax season, guys. It's coming up. It's coming up real fast. Got about a month and a half, which means it's time to think about the crypto taxes. I know you don't want to, but you have to. Don't fall into the trap of selling your crypto to pay your taxes. BlockFi helps crypto investors by providing

U.S. dollar funding using your crypto as collateral. Put Bitcoin in BlockFi, collateralize your loan. They send you back US dollar. It's a pretty seamless process. You can then save your Bitcoin as long as you're paying that loan back and get the cash that you need to spend on whatever you need at that point in time. So you get your crypto back at the end of the loan. It's that simple. BlockFi customers use them for anything from buying a home to funding a business. So visit blockfi.com slash tales from the crypt to learn more about using your crypto without having to sell today that's block fight.com slash tales from the crypt got a special offer for you freaks uh again really think you guys are going to enjoy this conversation with a messier

let us know what you think about it uh on twitter if you're liking it make sure you share it uh please subscribe rate review do anything it helps us uh produce more of these episodes so uh peace and love know you guys are going to enjoy it Tales from the Crypt. excited for this conversation uh this man has written a few very thought-provoking pieces over the last few months uh dropped one this week actually um i'd like to introduce all of you freaks to bitcoin researcher writer legend masir mamadov masir welcome to the pod thank you very much marty it's a great pleasure to be here and i'm a great fan of your show definitely a freak

as well thanks man let's love love to have freaks on when uh when the chance comes uh so let's jump into this obviously uh you've been getting more into bitcoin in the last year in particular you're a very astute tweeter you're very good at going viral on twitter with with bitcoin uh sense and in bitcoin threads in particular so i wish that's a skill i wish i had so i just want to tip my cap take my cap there um so how'd you get into bitcoin uh that's what i'm curious to learn how'd you get into this did your brother force you into it well he didn't necessarily force me into it but like i'm sure that anyone can imagine that having murad as your brother as your older brother it's just inevitable sooner or later you are going to you are also going to be very much

down the rabbit hole studying and learning all about bitcoin and i think that for some time i was kind of resisting this because he was already into bitcoin much earlier than i was and he was like telling me about it and i was like that's that's cool that's interesting but i was definitely more focused at the time at least on startups i i had a couple of i was working on a couple of startups with some of my friends from college and we built a couple of apps on ios android and that was all really cool and i i enjoyed that until a certain point uh what kind of what kind of apps so my latest one and probably the most successful one that we had was it was an app uh that basically allowed you to know and be uh notified of when your friends

are in the same cities as you are so let's say you travel to amsterdam next week and before you even go there or when you arrive there you are you basically get notification that four of your friends are also here but it would be like you wouldn't get they wouldn't know your exact location but just the city so unlike i don't know what facebook does or what snapchat does it was just more general less creepy and more palatable to to just users you know to an opsec uh focus bitcoiner in particular yeah exactly dude i was on snapchat the other day and accidentally like scrolled to the map where you can see your friends that's your location i was like holy shit you idiots like what are you doing i know right like yeah i don't really use snapchat but

when i did i always had that like that function turned off yeah i use snapchat for literally three people my sister my brother and my cousin and my brother my cousin i in particular have like a fat camp and we use snapchat to prove that we're working out and stuff nice but uh yeah i was checking one of our fat camp snaps uh this week and came on that map and you're able to like scroll out and like scroll in at any point of the world and see where these people are yeah so yeah so we were basically trying to create something that wasn't necessarily like that but was more uh user-friendly and because nowadays like people become more and more aware of the fact that their data is constantly stolen manipulated sold for money by all these companies

and interestingly enough people there was good uh good feedback and people were interested and i remember like when i just launched it like maybe i i just maybe sent like five five of my friends like the link to the download and within like hours i had like 500 people from my university already using it which was really cool and the young suck baby let's go uh wait until the end the story uh and like it was really nice because uh the app was in like top 200 i think uh in the trap in the travel category on app store and we were constantly making it better blah blah blah all this uh trying to iterate doing all the typical startup stuff and then one day i get like i get an email from um so we were using facebook api uh in order to basically show you

You log in through Facebook and you have access. The app can know who are your friends in order for you to be matched together in the same cities. And one day I get an email from Facebook saying that, oh, we have to limit your access to our API. And that was very problematic because the value proposition, the whole thing, kind of depended on being able to take advantage of that.

Don't take advantage of that or basically use that because like facebook is supposed to provide that for uh developers right for entrepreneurs who want to build on top of that platform but so in the email they basically said yeah don't even reply to this we're never going to explain why we're never going to tell you uh or this you will never be able to basically revoke that like take back that access or that's it like and you're basically this is like uh you're you're faced with this thing and you like at that point you realize oh oh god like we live in this world where these companies have become so big and so powerful that they're essentially monopolies that are like uh single choke points that keep away anyone who

is trying to like even remotely trying to be somehow in the same field in the same space like it's crazy like so they don't want you to compete with them and at that point yeah go ahead at that point i i was like oh oh god like this is why bitcoin is cool because there's a centralization because there's no that one single party who can just tell you nope you don't have access to this nope you won't be able to build this and that's when it started to click really right yeah and now i experienced this when we were at barstool like facebook cracked down on uh the media companies on their platform as well and uh they did not let like media companies monetize like be at like videos that would have ads in them like on facebook's platform like they want to let them

run they wanted to suck up all that ad revenue oh yeah i mean we weren't even monetizing anything everything was for free it was just like it was just like an app built by college students that was literally launched like a month ago and they were already trying to do that so what year was this if you don't mind me this was like two years ago yeah and so you had the oh shit moment this is why bitcoin exists and what happened from there did you have miran give you a bunch of reading materials from there yeah of course uh i came to him and i was like give me the like you've already obviously been through this and like you know what resources i should use to basically delve deeper into it so i don't waste my time because you know like back especially back in at that time

like it was like at the like that's when the bull market was like about to start and all that all that time it was crazy there's there's so much noise like you know and you don't know who to listen to who to trust who to believe like right now it's kind of different because like in the bear market like all these i think i i say like in the bear market like charlatans are they're on break like you know there's less and less of them and there's much more signal and it's much easier to actually like seek out uh quality information really but yeah but back in the day i think uh he he definitely told me about your podcast so that's something that i started to listen to like from almost the very beginning really yeah nice damn well i appreciate it i

hope uh hope i didn't lead you astray at all in the early days of this podcast you actually put me right on track oh thank you so what uh let me hear today so wow right destiny what uh like so what in particular uh so this is like one of my favorite questions asked especially people who come in hot with some good content like out of nowhere like what in particular helped you the most when you're first starting to learn and what sort of framework did you finally settle in on like all right here's how i filter the signal from the noise well i definitely think that limiting the amount of people that you listen to that you follow that you uh i mean at first obviously it's hard because you first need to kind of like uh get a sense of who's who and what is

what and who has some kind of ulterior motive who is trying to push some kind of agenda whereas somebody else might be just there just of course nobody is purely objective but has at least maybe some less bias less subjectivity to what they're saying and i think that if you follow like everyone on crypto twitter then like there's just going to be so much noise but if you try to limit the number and the make sure that the quality of those people that you can more or less trust their views well of course you can't trust everything they say but you always have to have your own filter but yeah you know yeah um and there's just so many so many scammers right and any any particular publications or blog posts well yeah uh probably going to sound

going to be repeating other people but definitely uh i think the stance that i kind of approached it with was more of like because i study economics so definitely austrian economics was something that really helped me understand bitcoin and appreciate it more uh from the from early on because i think that like yes bitcoin is software yes bitcoin is technology but And to really appreciate the huge impact that it will have on the world, you really need to understand the economic side of it, you know? Because otherwise, like, you're just going to become like an Ethereum head. So with regards to publications, I don't know, like Mises.org,

a bunch of different books by George Guido Hulsman, like me. if you noticed the if you're wondering what my profile pic on twitter is it's uh it's the cover of uh ethics of money production so that's definitely a great book uh rothbart uh what they've done to our money uh what else budget like uh nick zabo of course his work is very very influential and like i think that he's one of those few few people um like to be able to appreciate bitcoin it's in like 99 percent of the like over 90 percent of the people are unable to appreciate what bitcoin is and how impactful uh it will be because they are they specialize in one or two domains or fields or academic disciplines but in order to be able to

really understand bitcoin you need to at least have a considerable uh depth in in like a handful like in a dozen of in a dozen of fields and very few people can do that i think nick z was definitely one of the one of those he understands the monetary history he understands the cryptography he understands blah blah blah like you know there's all legal repercussions exactly but if you're just an economist then you're probably not going to understand the technology you're probably not going to understand the game theory necessarily or blah blah and that's like for every single person you need to get all those people together and have them think like as a super mind to only be able to understand what this is you know right so that's why it's really hard like even so i

think like even if you're a very smart person that doesn't mean that you're necessarily going to be able to it's just going to click just like that you need to always do research and you always need to uh delve into other uh disciplines that you might not have any knowledge in that's why i think twitter is the best resource because you just have uh masters of different domains meeting in a central place to be like all right i see where you're coming from in your domain here's where i'm coming from in my domain and you sort of piece it all together that way yeah no twitter is just an invaluable resource it's priceless i really i'm really glad that i uh joined when did you community when did i what when did you join june 2010 oh no it's just my old account

I was a teenager when I made it. I actually joined maybe half a year ago. I didn't really want to make an account before I thought that I had enough. Obviously, you can't know everything about Bitpoint, and everyone is very far from that. But until I had enough understanding of it, at least to some extent,

it was obviously very subjective. And only then, I think it was August 2018 when my first post was made. what's life after uh life after twitter been like has it been different it's fun i i really like it i think that like a considerable amount of the information that i learn every day comes from twitter and just like there's so much stuff going on like you know and not just about bitcoin like there are other fields that i feel like bitcoin makes you realize many many other things about life that are very very valuable yeah i uh was lucky to find the ability to use twitter as a

tool to follow like fin twit and financial markets like when i was working in finance and like so i've been following some of these fin twit accounts for like almost six seven years now and it's just like you can learn about anything in the world any market any region any any war really that's another interesting thing i use twitter for so i'm like uh people war-torn areas while it's going on um again we we show twitter pretty hard here already absolutely absolutely but to be honest like now that i've been exposed to now that i'm part of the bitcoin twitter crypto twitter whatever you call it uh like going and really like looking at other types of twitter like i don't know startup twitter or like i don't know

vc twitter like it's just so boring like nothing is going on there compared to like how much how much like activity there is in like with regards to bitcoin you don't see uh as much impassioned debate as there is in crypto twitter outside of crypto twitter exactly and that that's a huge sign i think like that's a huge sign you know the the one sect of twitter that might come close is like activist investor twitter probably yeah yeah um but still not not as much yeah just shit-talking products they don't like we should talk shit shit coin so sort of similar um so let's dive into i mean you've been studying bitcoin now for what two years uh you've written some pieces most recently you wrote uh bitcoin's incentive system or when the stars line before that

you and yassin wrote uh the first part you only put out part one right yeah there's two more parts coming up yeah part one of uh the whether bitcoin is a winner take all or winner take most um so setting the stage for that uh we'll jump into those but the topic that you're excited to talk about and i'm excited to hear you talk about that we're going to start out with tonight is bitcoin as time um so bitcoin at the end of the day is a time stamping protocol one of my favorite ways that bitcoin has ever been described by andrew desantis is that bitcoin uh when let me think of give me a sec when it's coming bitcoin when implemented correctly uh is a time stamping protocol bitcoin is a time stamping as a time stamping and messaging protocol that if implemented

correctly results in a store value there we go that's what it was um but like the time aspect the time stamping aspect i think that's something that you are very excited to talk about have you written about it yet no i haven't so i this is the first time i'm like coming out with these ideas we got some friends i'm sure there are other people who are thinking about this i don't take full credit for this like theory but it's not a theory i think it's just something you come to by deduction and yeah so basically like you can talk about bitcoin in a lot of different ways and everyone says like this is no money bitcoin is money no bitcoin is not mine bitcoin is software bitcoins like yeah okay bitcoin is all those things but at the most fundamental level like

you know how we think about bitcoin as uh stored energy why because uh and that's absolutely true and why because bitcoin enables us to extract um and monetize sources of energy that are remote that are trapped in areas for whatever logistical operational reason and we're unable to make use of them right and i don't know like just so the listeners know what i'm talking about they probably already do but you can basically use that energy instead of trying to get it i don't know somewhere from a remote place in ireland to the market you would just use that energy to mine bitcoins and once you have those bitcoins you can literally just transact with them you can send them anywhere in the world seamlessly which is a huge which is huge for for in terms of efficiency

like so so much energy is just there it just sits there basically wasted nobody makes takes advantage of it and like so yes this is very important that bitcoin is stored energy but more importantly something more fundamental and more basic and when i say basic i don't mean basic you know conventional i mean complexity from a complexity standpoint yeah in terms of like human nature yeah bitcoin is time and i will explain why that is and why that is just more important than any other little eureka revelation moment that i had in the last two years bitcoin is time yeah so you know how uh how people always say that bitcoin is as opposed to other forms of money as opposed to other things it's very scarce it's it's stock to flow ratio

is very high it's like it's going to be more scarce than uh gold soon and uh basically nobody can increase its supply at their will and wherever they want as opposed to many other things that that's like basically the supply of bitcoin is inelastic to changes in demand which is very important but you have to understand that there's something that is more fundamentally scarce more limited in its nature than bitcoin then gold then anything for that matter then real estate on manhattan than anything and that is the human time that every single one of us is allotted on this earth and if you just think about that there's not nothing else time that that's it that's all you have you have your what's the average life expectancy nowadays like 70 years

depending on where you are i guess but yeah nobody really lives more than 100 years right getting cosmic so early into this yeah but that's important to get cosmic right right no that's why i've been saying a lot on this podcast recently you only have one life freaks enjoy it so yeah so yeah you actually better enjoy it and make most of it and enjoy it uh don't waste it on things like that you don't don't necessarily make you happy uh so we have those 70 80 years or whatever and even if you have a lot of resources like what are you going to do you can maybe lead a healthier lifestyle so or have the best doctors best medicine so maybe that's going to increase your life by like maybe 10 years 15 years who knows like but what we need to think of the idea

that like even some of the richest people in the world some of the most influential people like billionaires they die in their 50s sometimes in their 60s because of like god forbid for cancer or any other debilitating disease. And they can't do anything about that. You would think that they have billions of dollars. They have so much power, but they can't. Don't you think that... Everybody's on a level playing field when it comes to time.

Exactly, exactly. Steve Jobs, he died, I think, of pancreatic cancer at 56. You would think he is literally one of the most important people of our time. and he couldn't do it couldn't no he couldn't and there you have someone else who didn't do anything and he lives or she lives for 90 years or whatever but that's not the point is that nobody controls that we can't control that and our time is absolutely limited whatever it is 56 70 or whatever the grim reaper can come whenever exactly and um i think that it's very important to know that um like once again like those billionaires they would probably don't you think that they

would have given up like a big percent of their wealth billions of dollars just to live another decade just maybe live another year for all that matter for for all i know like you know like because if you have billions if you have so much power and wealth like what good is it if you're not there to enjoy like to like enjoy the fruits of your labor if you are not there like i'd rather be super i'd rather be very poor and alive than the richest person in the world and dead like you know right exactly so you have to understand that your time is the most scarce the most important the most fundamentally limited thing in in nature and there's nothing nothing can compete with that and this leads me to my next thought uh so the fact that most of us say live 70 years as i always

said we work anywhere from like 30 to 35 or maybe 40 years of our waking life you know so considerable amount of time of our life is spent working in a factory in an office wherever whatever you do and why is that because we need money right and we need money to get by and if we don't if we stop working then we'll probably not be able to maintain the same living standard or just not be able to have a roof over our head or be able to buy the food that we need to eat so basically when you work you are engaging in a voluntary exchange and you are giving away yes you're giving away your energy but more importantly you're giving away your time yes you're giving away your time in exchange for money let's say dollars for example you get a wage

in dollars but wait a moment we just came to the conclusion that time is the most scarce the most fundamentally limited in its supply thing in the universe and that you can possibly have whereas money as we know money in the world today let's say dollars they are very very different they're very much expandable in their nature you know i see where the supply is not limited so like this realization is just mind-bending like this means that you're giving away something that cannot possibly be created aka your time for something else for money dollars that are constantly increasing in their supply and thereby losing their value like this is a terribly unfair exchange if you come to think of it right yeah like you're trying the the work and the wage that you make

for the work that you expend is supposed to to represent a value that should be stored throughout time exactly yeah and you have to realize that the yearly inflation rate in the united states is what like five percent i mean they they say that it's like two three but it's we know that it's much more than that but for the sake of the argument let's say it's five right and this means that your wealth that you hold in dollars because most likely you're paid your wages paid in dollars loses five percent of its value every year because your share of that money supply becomes smaller relative to the total share that just has expanded by five percent and at first it seems that five percent right not that much right five percent what was five percent

but wait it is more important to think about it think about the effect that uh is the effect is amplified over time and if you basically compound that those five percent uh you realize that it only takes around 15 years for your dollars to lose 50 of their value of their original value and that means that if you work really hard you save up a considerable amount of money let's say you say you work for years and you saved a hundred thousand dollars and you're planning to use this money in the future you're planning to i don't know buy your child or like pay for your child's tuition buy a house for your family but the thing is that this means that in just 15 years time that 100 that you worked so hard for 100 000 will only buy you stuff worth of 50 000 it's going to

it's going to lose half of what it's worth purchasing power exactly and so this means that it is essentially impossible to save these dollars that you earn and hope that you will be able to buy the same stuff in the future what do you have to say to the keynesians who would say uh who are savers to to reap the benefits of value stored through time like inflation is necessary to get people stoking the economy i don't i don't think that uh deflation is bad i don't think that uh i think we need to really think about the idea that somehow through time somebody was able to uh create this implicit negative connotation uh associated with money and saving money and hoarding he's a hoarder oh wow what a terrible person he hoards money wait wait a second what

does it mean like before we get into attacking that person and lynching a person who just decides to save money uh what does it mean saving money means that you are basically providing value for society and that that value is represented in money i'm sorry but money is not bad money is actually good it's like if you create value for society if you help others then they're willing to give you something in return and that is money and if you want to be able to uh have a some cert certitude in the future to be able to hedge for the risks of life and life is very risky you want to be able to pay for your children's uh school education for your for some maybe uh god forbid some emergency medical expenses that anyone can have you want to be able to save money

into the future and that's fine you don't want to be consuming random nonsensical useless products every single day that we are forced to do in the current uh environment because we know that if you don't if you don't spend today then tomorrow i'm not going to be able to buy what i can buy today so i i'm forced to like the most optimal thing is to buy today because tomorrow or go into debt today get a mortgage today because tomorrow is going to not be able i'm not going to be able to do that so i don't think it's it's fair right yeah and this reminds me of my uh conversation from like a year and a half ago now with santiago siri when he was on this podcast but when he explained like experiencing hyperinflation in argentina in particular like particularly is

like memories of his mother or father getting paid and then running to the grocery store and buying food as quickly as possible before the exchange rate changed like that is just i would argue this sort of scenario played out to like a much more extreme not even much more extreme uh obviously it's more extreme at that point in time but like we are somewhere along the timeline of ending up running to the grocery store to to buy uh groceries as fast as we possibly can after getting paid um right now uh it's forcing people to to conspicuously spend on like a quarterly monthly weekly basis but uh maybe we're eking closer and closer towards like a daily hourly minute by minute basis like venezuela and argentina are experiencing yeah

that's that's very true and i think what's also important to understand is that so what the keynesians and what the status quo economists are probably advocating for is like we need inflation because inflation is necessary to stimulate the demand and if there's no inflation then people are not going to be the demanding the products that are that our companies and our society builds and blah blah blah but you need to understand that like how the process of civilization advancement comes about and it comes about in the following manner people are able to create value for the society and they are rewarded with let's say money uh with something that stores their wealth and they're able to collect that and by collecting they are

they're able to save that money in order to have some time to think about the potentially long-term viable investments that they can make with this with this money that they now have but so let's say i have i earned some money and i have like a year to think about what startup i should build or what business i should invest in or what stock i should buy but if i earn money and i know that it's going to be worthless or is going it's not going to have the same i'm going to be uh i'm going to be pushed to spend it and i don't have enough time to think about a good uh good investment i'm probably just going to buy something that i don't even need and definitely not something that's going to increase the economy or uh or the gdp or create jobs so like if if you

give people time they're definitely going to be making better decisions like everyone needs time you know and so how do we get to the point of bitcoin sort of representing time uh storing your value via bitcoin and having that represent your your hard work throughout time to just getting to pure bitcoin is time yeah so like i'm nowhere from being done with this idea so let me let me continue you kind of went on a tangent here so basically we live in a world where it's impossible to earn dollars and hope that you'll be able to have them the same buying power in the future.

And this leads people who you would think that have nothing to do with these domains. They have to be part of them. People in this world, you see a lot of dentists or florists who are kind of forced to talk about the stock market or who are forced to think of making an investment

in real estate. Chase for yield, man. exactly like they aren't supposed to be doing that you know like a florist or a dentist they have they specialize in something they are they have mastered a skill and they master they continue to master it every single day and they they shouldn't be they shouldn't be in need of trying to find the best performing stock uh to make sure that their money doesn't like so that they can keep uh the same wealth that they earn today you know like they don't have like why they don't have the time to watch bloomberg they don't have the time to read financial newsletters they

are watching bloomberg or cnbc you're getting info from like kramer like the fast money guys who are fucking basically throwing darts at the fuck yeah of course and oh and probably they're also not an accredited investor in the first place so they don't have access to like how most of the investments that are available and another thing is that like so people my point is that people a lot of like people in this world who understand that money like if you hold your dollars cash it's not going to preserve your wealth into the future they buy stocks equity or real estate because that tends to perform better it tends to preserve its value better into the future but the thing is that these people who suffer the most are those who are paid in

dollars in cash and they don't have the access they don't have the information they don't have the time and most importantly they don't have the time exactly you're working and work all day like like unfortunately people who are uh not as financially privileged as others they tend to work longer hours they tend to have less time for to spend with their family to spend on some other hobbies or to sit on the internet learn about how to i don't know financial trends work and more importantly they also they don't even have the the the amount of money that you need in order to invest into real estate right yeah exactly they can't afford an apartment in vancouver or manhattan like what they can't buy like a portion of it and these people are the ones who

are just forced to have cash and they're the ones losing out the most and that's that's crazy exactly so it's very important to understand that this in exchange that we're engaged engaged in everyday life of me working long hours giving away my strictly limited scarce resource absolutely limited time in exchange for something that is the opposite that's something that expands all the time money like dollars for example and yeah can we go off on a little tangent uh sure yeah i was gonna say but like when you explain it this clearly it makes it like hard to believe that there's not some like conspiracy to keep the average man down like via these these monetary policies like am i getting too too alex jones here call it call it whatever you want like i

mean conspiracy the word conspiracy has like there's like oh conspiracy no it must not be true but like i think humans are made human no human like humans are not good or bad humans are just humans and people seek out the best opportunities for themselves and i think that like it just so happened that in the world that we are in today the um the tables turned in a way the the emergent properties have played out in a way that this is the case and it benefits certain people at the expense of others and until now until bitcoin has came about i don't think it would be it was possible to somehow change that status quo so you too believe that bitcoin is the sly roundabout way to take a currency out of the hands of the government yeah um all right tangent over yeah

so basically the idea is that because we don't have sound money we are forced to work most of our life most of our life or first to work work instead of doing the things that we actually enjoy because frankly most people probably don't really enjoy their work i mean i hope they do but i don't think that every single person in the office particularly enjoys their time and that's pretty terrible and the office like that's actually pretty good outcome a lot of people don't have this a very privileged outcome the only thing that you have is your time on this planet and nothing matters more than your time because as we already established that is the most scarce thing and now that we've realized that this exchange is fundamentally unfair so this

obligatory pursuit of money that we are forced to as human beings is basically the deal with the devil there is no way to win uh working for your wage for your dollars means you are the donkey chasing the carrot it's a rat race and i'm not saying that nobody should work i'm just like some people they have no other choice and yes but that's the system they will live in and that's what we're supposed to be thinking about demand a better money where you can store your your work exactly so you're once again i'm just going to reiterate this because like it's i just think it's so important you're exchanging your strictly limited time on this earth for an infinitely expand expandable dollar or any money so like this is this is a huge scam essentially if you think

about it i see her we throw scam around a lot in this industry is this a true scam or you uh you're just trying to pump bitcoin here we haven't even gone got to gotten to bitcoin what are you talking about bitcoin is coming i haven't even said anything about it but it is really a scam and people and i guess we're going to get into this later but like people don't understand money and again and i like talked about this in the bent this week like uh when arbed out highlighted uh the history of iran and in 1296 like the iranian merchant class like destroyed the the financial czar when he tried to introduce paper money to their to their uh silver dinar system um so like and then another example uh which is slipping my mind right now um

oh uh yeah and uh i believe it was one of the founding fathers i forget exactly it might be thomas jefferson butchering this quote right now but like dude like or no it was one of the bankers like i care not who makes the laws if i can control the money press that's all that matters like there's themes throughout history that like say like hey whoever controls the money is like it's it's an important aspect of our lives and it should be taken seriously to not let it become bastardized and it's been a big theme recently like we just don't understand that we're thrown into the system where like money is unfair like the the financials are and iran has succeeded and people don't even realize that it's bad yeah it's a scam it's crazy i mean like the the fed

the u.s like i mean the dollar is the one who really controls the world at this point but i don't think that it's impossible to change that because we now have bitcoin but essentially so my point is that this is a vampiric force and it is a vampiric force because it is literally sucking life out of you it is draining you hour by hour year by year it is stealing your time this is poetic this year i didn't try to make it vampiric it is it's sucking your time it's like a vampire your valuable time and and depreciating or excuse me uh inflating the shit uh out of the money supply that you're supposed to store that time in yeah like realizing that this i think it's very important and finally enough of the negative enough of the uh the grim

and the gloomy the vampires we come to something that has the potential to change that to a large to a large extent because bitcoin with its strictly limited supply it's well at first disinflationary and eventually deflationary nature allows you to have a very very much uh fairer trade because you are now exchanging your strictly limited time for a similarly strictly limited units of value just think about that this is this is much more fair because now that now that means that you are giving away something that is limited for something else that is also limited it's very different so you know the meme uh joke woke so i yeah i say joke time is money woke money is time

right yeah damn you just flipped it on the head so bitcoin is essentially the first money that allows you to trade your truly truly valuable truly scarce strictly limited human time for something that is similarly limited in its supply which is changes everything and i'll tell you why like if you think about it this way like you could calculate the amount of extra time that an average human spends working because of the fact that their money doesn't like their dollars for example they don't hold their value please tell me you crunched the numbers i didn't necessarily crunch any numbers but like i mean if somebody should probably do that much more accurately than me but this is very appropriate and rough but like

without bitcoin without sound money people have to work multiple number of times more during their life as opposed to the amount of time that they would have otherwise worked if they had sound money like bitcoin maybe this is the way we start framing bitcoin it's like we all know you hate work we all know everybody hates fucking work we all know you want to work less sound sound money a bitcoin standard would make this possible because you could save your wealth throughout time i know right hey everybody working on the narratives out there it's listening to this write this down this is bringing us up at the next bitcoin meeting yeah for sure so once again this is very rough and approximate but say we work 30 40 years of our life that means that the dollar

that that you make lose like you know how we said the dollar that you make loses 50 percent of its value over maybe 15 approximately 15 years so during those 30 40 years you're basically dollar loses that 50 percent like more than twice yes which means that like once again this is very rough don't quote me on anything but like this makes an average person work like anywhere from two to three times more than they would have otherwise could if they wanted to have the same amount of purchasing if the same amount of wealth in their life and that's crazy like it like if you think about it people would sound in the sound money world people could retire in their 40s like easily how it wouldn't have to but they could whereas right now they are forced to work like

until their 50s and and still unable to pay a lot of their debt let's extrapolate even further like how does this change like human nature and what does the world look like if people are able to do this and the rat race sort of gets uh the world looks very very much differently why because now that every single person has so much more time on their hands and instead of every mother every father going out and working from eight to five or i mean maybe sometimes later they can now spend that time with their family they can now spend that time doing the things that they enjoy they can now have that time to actually think of their i don't know some side projects and as we know side projects always uh result in some some uh very very impactful uh products i don't know like

you know how in google they have they had a 25 percent of the time or like one day a week do whatever you want and yeah like a lot of innovation came out from there and like people if you give them if you give them the time and the ability to just do what they like they they become creative they do what they and like it's crazy like i mean you could think about it as like like the social effect of forget about the economics of it like the social effect that this has is also very destructive i think like if you spend most of the time if you're of your day working like what is what are you going to become like you're going to hit the world you're going to hate yourself because you don't have anything you just have to come fat bald you had dinner you

really want to sleep and you have to wake up to do that once again and all over again like you know it's no way to live i like physically like that's one of the reasons i had to quit finance like i physically had like a physical aversion to sitting in the cube all day like i could feel myself getting fat out of shape like that's not normal there's something i just felt like i felt like a rat in a cage yeah that's not i don't think that's the optimal way that a human being should just exist like you know this is once again someone might say this is very privileged of you to say that but like in theory i think sound money allows us to change that to considerable extent and have people enjoy similar living standards while working

less hours how many people do you think enjoy their lives this is a heavy question enjoy their lives yeah i think a lot of people enjoy aspects of their lives and they don't necessarily maybe they hate the other aspects of their life that's a good way to put it so i don't think it's just yeah i don't they might may hate their work or that's maybe they're willing how many people a percentage of everybody that's working how many do you think hate their job a large percent yeah yeah like i mean the dream was to enjoy your work but like that's such an idealistic thing right what do you need to do like i don't know is it idealistic only in this system or do you think there is a way i think it's definitely more idealistic a lot more idealistic

in this system because here you are forced to chase chase that carrot here you are forced to be that donkey and you are essentially you have less choice and you just have to do what you uh what brings you money because you need to work constantly to make sure that you can have some wealth have some purchasing power because otherwise it's just going to starve it's fleeting you know and but in a world where you uh where money sound uh that means that you can work as a florist and if you actually enjoy that you can just do that and you know that if you earned a hundred thousand dollars over the last couple of years you will have that same amount of money you can literally just stop working you can take a i don't know sabbatical not work for a

couple of years and then come back and know that oh at least i have this because i've earned it in the past i don't have to constantly be worried about the future all right yeah that's what like so if like there is a trend like obviously there's gonna be a bitcoin comes to fruition uh in the way in which we think it will and the the most uh optimistic way in which we can envision the people that go along for the ride of this monetization event like that's going to be a unique sect of general a couple generations of people that participated in this uh sort of new asset uh monetizing and and accruing value like is there like a period let's i guess is what is there like a period where like the people that rode that wave have like a different life than

the people that come after them um or like you sort of read like so take everybody to a new level like uh rising tide raises all boats and like you sort of plateau up there i think it does raise all the boats well obviously the people who have invested in bitcoin in 2011 are clearly going to make more money than those who like we need to understand that even if you like i believe that even if you don't necessarily profit directly from uh bit like holding bitcoin while this monetization process occurs and while the bitcoin's price increases you are still going to be better off because in a world of sound money in a world where people are using bitcoin that means that you're most likely going to be paid in bitcoin that means that your labor is now is now able to

preserve itself and preserve its its fruits into the future so even if you didn't even if you're not somebody who bought i don't know a thousand bitcoins in 2010 for for the penny on the dollar you're still you're still your life will still be better because now now you don't have to constantly chase something now you can work for 15 years 20 years of your life and then never work again because at least you have that you made that value you created that value you were rewarded for that value and now you can you can plan into the future and you can be like okay if i spend let's say i don't know two thousand dollars every month then i will be able my uh i'll be able to not have to work for this amount of time and i'll be able to live a comfortable life because i've

already worked for the last 20 years but right now you can't really do that because you don't know like how this money supply how the fed is going what what is what their monetary policy is going to be next year and how is that going to impact your life right yeah and so bitcoin as time is the is the perfect asset to store your time that's uh fascinating i've never heard uh the thought experiment explained that way are we done with the thought experiment almost almost all right we're still going let's keep going so you remember how i just said that like a world where we have something like bitcoin hopefully bitcoin uh sound money essentially that means that people will be able to if they were to lead the same lifestyle have the same standard of

living have the same wealth as they do in this world they could technically work two maybe two three times less like i mean this is very rough but definitely less than they do have to now that's the most important thing and considerably less so you you understand that this creates an incredible amount of efficiency this this technology is enabling so much efficiency and like if you if people have to work two or three times less that means that they have to drive their car to work two or three times less they have to buy uh i don't know two or three times less of useless stuff that they need to work and all these button down shirts exactly and like and then people talk about how bitcoin is like is using so much energy and is destroying the world

like they they're thinking so small small yeah it's so narrow-minded to just like oh no bitcoin is using 0.1 percent of the world's energy or whatever i don't know how much it is but like no but you have to you can't just look at what's like you on the surface you have to understand what is the underlying meaning and what impact it's going to have. And the impact is huge. So if the world, if people are going to be

wasting two, three times less effort, like less personal energy and only working, let's say, two times less, like the efficiency that is enabled by that, and it's only worth, what, $70 billion?

That's laughable. Can you imagine? Something that can make the world more efficient by a number of times, like by I don't know how many orders of magnitude yeah by orders of magnitude

so like I don't know if you're gonna get to it maybe I'm finishing the thought experiment here but like the amount of human ingenuity that would be it

oh yeah I mean I'm not even talking about that I'm talking about just like the amount of wasted time yes but the amount it's not just a negative exactly

it's also positive because it gives you so much time to do what actually is important to you important to the world yeah exactly all the inventions

all the technology that is enabled by that I haven't even gotten to that so maybe that 2x is amplified by like a magnitude exactly but and given all that like that technology that can make everything so much more efficient something that will allow every person to work several times less and earn the same amount of

wealth in their life is only worth 70 billion dollars like very few people how early are we like very few people understand this and like understanding this opens your eyes to why bitcoin's market capitalization will be like in today's equivalent will be in the hundreds of trillions of dollars i think hundreds of trillions yeah all right so let's talk about the monetization path like what's it look like well uh it looks like that it first has to um be a store of value i mean i'm not going to say anything different from what most people say because i agree with that like something becomes first it becomes a stock like i'm not talking about like re-explain the collectible sov yeah i'm talking about more like what do you think like macro wise drives

this you think it's uh sort of understanding of the technology and uh that uh conscious choice good question choosing it uh great question dollar or is it forced people forced into a corner to use it it's something that i thought about a lot and something that some time ago i was like i always thought that it's so important to create this educational content to teach people about what bitcoin is and the underlying what money is and i still think that that's very important and like what you are doing what like even i'm doing to this very small extent because i'm just writing articles and uh being on twitter uh i guess also helps someone sometimes to understand like they'll be able to appreciate bitcoin uh but the thing is that i don't think

that even in the world where everyone uses bitcoin or hyper bitcoinized world i still think that a lot of the people if not i don't know how many but a lot of you will still not understand what the hell this is what what money is why there's better than and they do and the funny thing is that they don't need to they don't need to like beauty on always talks about how like shut up beauty on yeah keen yeah shout out to uh bitcoin matters it's a very cool podcast he always says that like people use whatsapp and they enjoy the fact that it's they can rely on its encryption but they they don't even know what encryption really is or how it works or they don't they don't know any of that they don't need to it just works and that's why everyone uses it

And the same thing, like, I thought that, like, oh, God, how is every single person going to understand, like, all this Austrian economics, all this game theoretical theories, game theory and everything that comes with that? Like, it took me, like, I don't know, like, reading 10 books, watching so many videos, listening to so many podcasts to just, like, be able to come close somewhere to, like, be able to understand. Like, nobody has the time for that. Ain't nobody got time for that, man. Ain't nobody got time for that. who has the time to do that right that's why i'm so happy i found bitcoin in college when i had so much fucking time exactly yeah likewise uh people can barely like have like and we also have to think about the attention spans nowadays like you know how back in the day everyone was watching

when people were watching movies like people in the theater like i don't know thespians probably most likely thought of movies that's uh that's uh haven't heard thespians dropped in a while i love it such a low level uh form of entertainment that's like you know so um high time preference you know like movie you sit down watch a movie eat popcorn and now even movies like now i think movies are becoming what like for example theater was back in the day because now we have uh we have netflix which is like 20 minute shows we have short youtube videos we have vines god forbid we have i don't know snapchat and it's everything is so quick everything is instant everything is like consume consume consume uh swipe left swipe right uh you know like dislike all that type of

stuff frame switch frame switch frame exactly it's crazy yeah it's just absolutely crazy like the amount of information and people are now they're not willing to like last time like people don't watch like very few i really like movies and i'm really into like film uh but most of the time when i try to maybe hold a conversation about i don't know what what who's your favorite director what movies you like nobody's like oh i don't really want i don't have any favorite director i don't watch movies i watch netflix right netflix yeah because it's easy to watch 20 minute episodes and you know binge watch them instead of like having to sit for two hours think about something like you know and let's talk about the state of movies though movies suck today

yeah no good like i was arguing like after christopher nolan's batman series like that's not like the last good movie series there's been other good movies but like it's shit it's just a bunch of remakes like a bunch of redos like and i like to get like i love movies too like i love stanley kubrick i love his films yeah um watched eyes wide shut uh recently yeah man that's crazy that's a crazy movie i don't i'm very i have very mixed feelings about that movie yeah i don't know it's like very interesting but at the same time quite disturbing uh is it real is that shit happening i was i went recently to um to one of those parties no it was it was an interactive immersive show experience there's like uh uh in on in manhattan

there's like this like five-story hotel and you basically go in there everyone has to like all the all the audience members have to wear a mask what and they walk around this like very dark very gloomy like post-apocalyptic hotel uh like after it's like set in after world war ii or something or during the world war ii and you walk around and then there's people who are interacting with you who are actors and they're basically performing and like i don't know it's crazy they're walking around naked like it's what i mean it's almost like you're in that movie what's going on at columbia is this a club no this has nothing to do with columbia damn i don't know if i want to go to this but i am a little bit intrigued what the hell

I think it's based on Shakespeare, actually, like Macbeth or something. Oh, really? Yeah. Interesting. But anyways, we were talking about people, like, consuming information. They don't have the, like, and I'm not even talking about reading books. I'm talking about movies. Watching movies is much easier than reading a book.

Right. And reading books. So boring. There are no TV shows yet that you can watch to really understand the value proposition of Bitcoin, unfortunately. I'm sorry. Let alone Vines. Right. That's something I've been thinking about, though.

still like many video series stuff yeah exactly i think that's that's definitely something that is a good good medium that will enable a lot of people to really appreciate it so my point being is that people don't have the time to really understand and the value proposition of bitcoin but they don't necessarily need to most people don't need to understand it because the economic reality imposes itself onto the world onto the people itself yeah so i bring up your your pin tweet here mass adoption of bitcoin is inevitable yeah so why is it i think that's what you're getting at is it's inevitable it doesn't matter if people understand it so let's get into why you think bitcoin adoption is inevitable why

simply because it is sounder than other forms of money and when something is more sound and not only sound like i mean yes it's sound but it's also constantly appreciating in value like if we look at its price if we look at the low at the low lowest price of bitcoin every single year in the last 10 years it has been increasing at a very very good rate i think only one year it went down or decreased yeah i think so like it has a lower low 50 all right i remember yeah but i think one but still nine out of ten years it's been doing what it's supposed to be doing and like it's so early that it's going to be doing that for quite some time until we hit a plateau which is not coming anytime soon probably maybe in like 100 years but uh the point being is that

people even the detractors of something like bitcoin they are incentivized to be part of it like because you know like even if you don't like it you might as well profit from it like everyone like everyone is it's actually like something i wrote i think it was in the last article like i think there's some people that know me that hold bitcoin just uh as a hedge in case i'm right you know exactly yeah because like if if marty if this my annoying friend marty who's being all about bitcoin if he's going to be right he's going to be so much richer and so much more powerful than me and i'm going to be the idiot might as well at least be at least make fun of him but not end up in a worse position than he is because at least like i hedged my risks you know

exactly no and it's getting to the point where somebody put out a thread saying like if you're a millionaire like it's becoming riskier not to own a little bit bitcoin than it is to own bitcoin especially if you're in that sort of net worth area definitely yeah and i think that what's very important to understand is that every single entity group or collective is made up of self-motivated individuals like we we usually think of like uh the the fed or i don't know the american government the round table of some masons like that's not how it works that's and like even if it were to work like that which i don't think it is exactly like that even if it were these are hypothetically these 10 people at that round table they're all humans they're they

are not a collective hive mind super brain that think in unison and try to take over the world and dominate they all have children they all have families they all have personal priorities they're all constantly thinking adversarially like any other human being like my so one of these 10 people is probably thinking oh this other person who is also very powerful and who is my probably frenemy as always how do what do i do maybe i should get into this bitcoin uh maybe i should get some some of this bitcoin so that in the next 10 years i'm going to i don't know so that i will have i'll become even more powerful than he is like nobody can think this is like this is what austrian economics teaches you you know and like that you have to get down to an individual level

and on individual level there's no we there's no us there's no entities groups or collectives there's just you and you are survival yeah survival making your own decisions optimizing for for yourself basically you know no and this is and a lot of people would try to imbue like the selfish uh sort of tag on people that think that way like it's important to think about yourself as an individual first and then work outwards but i truly believe like that is important to understand and sort of strive for because especially if we believe that bitcoin is a grassroots movement if it is truly grassroots grassroots grassroots grassroots movement should start with the individual like yeah conquer your

own domain and then move out from there and get your house in order and then i mean this is human nature yeah then start everyone prioritizes themselves over anything else and i'm not saying that this is good or bad this is just what we who we are as animals if you can't help yourself how are you going to help someone else exactly you know yeah and i've been thinking recently like the more you realize that we live in a world that is guided by the principles of survival of the fittest um the more you actually want to help other people right you know like people say like people don't want to they they kind of like dismiss this they negate this idea no it's this is not a world of natural selection this is not that we are all together in this

happy-go-lucky world where we help each other where we are all no but like at the end of the day you know like you have to be strong you have to be able to do your best unfortunately like but if you know that that is the case you you know that some other people who are truly at a disadvantage who are truly in a position of need they they can't help themselves that's why you want to help them so i'm not trying to verge virtue signal but uh no you're not and that's it goes back nobody's going to help them like one of my uh favorite uh you have to help one of my favorite uh puns on this podcast has been brought over from uh the little crossword was like you're only as strong as the weakest link so even if you're thinking of like a global hive mind and

you are uh afforded some comfort and wealth as a part of the hive mind like you would like the world to sort of again like rising tide raise all boats you like to bring those people up to your level and make like the chain as strong as possible exactly by by sharpening the the weakest links or making them stronger yeah because like if you don't subscribe to like this idea of like i don't know evolutionary type of uh survival of the fittest then you think that like i don't know it's not the survival of the fittest that's why the the people who are weak the ones who are actually at a disadvantage something is going to work out for them but no you need to help them you know like if you are fitter than them they are if you are fitter is a metaphor obviously it's not

about being fit uh like if you want to get back to like a hunter and gatherer like well yeah well back then it was fit now it's more probably more like being intelligent or whatever or maybe being more adaptive because i think that's that's very important like adaptation you know yeah especially in a world that's changing exactly as it is today if you can't adapt to you are just going to become i don't know an archetype that is no longer relevant my mom's always calling me during these recordings mother i'll get back to you later yeah so to my previous point is that Like every single group, every single institution, the Fed, whatever, it's made up of self-motivated individuals who are, even if, let's say, I don't know, the Fed is going to, stands to lose from the adoption of Bitcoin, for example, the people that it is made up of, the individuals, they have the potential to massively gain from the adoption of Bitcoin. You understand?

Shout out to the fifth pillar. Let's make it happen. Yeah. So, you have to understand that it's all about the incentives. And this is what I wrote about in my recent piece called Bitcoin Incentive System or When the Stars Align. And by the way, before you get into this, I must note for you freaks out there who obviously can't see this audio recording. The Mamadov brothers are big note takers. But I will say, Monsieur is a lot more neat and tidy with his notes.

Has them with nice clips. organized very well color-coded not not quite color-coded but very organized i love it i don't know it's a good thing i just don't want to i just have a lot to say and i don't want to forget anything no it's like people who bring notes on this show the conversations tend to be a little bit more heady which i like so i hope this one ends up being one i think i think people are gonna like your uh your thoughts on bitcoin in time um so let's talk about bitcoin's incentives Yeah, so I think that what makes Bitcoin so powerful is the alignment of incentives, the structure, the way like Satoshi designed it. he he must have known quite a bit about human nature and the way we interact with each other

to create all of these different uh ways to incentivize uh people within the bitcoin community and outside the bitcoin community to propagate and to basically uh enable its inevitable success which i believe is so and like i think apart from being a technological breakthrough like maybe even more importantly i mean it's they all complement each other of course but more fundamentally it is a psychological and a social phenomenon because i really like to think about like bitcoin is able to leverage human greed like you know we're all in this for technology we're all in this to make the world a better place yes sure those those are the the outcomes that are going to result those are the consequences stack some sats though baby exactly like you know

this is this is in the human nature like if it was just for the technology then i don't think that there would be so many people and so many eyes drawn to it i think that and there's nothing bad about like once again like money is not bad like people wanting to uh put themselves in a better financial position is normal and it's actually should be they they should they should definitely not be like ostracized or like pointed fingers at they should be these are good people who are trying to create value for others because this is what money is creating value and once again it's all about human greed because humans are greedy and it's not all about it but it's definitely a huge lever that in that incentive system is that a good thing though is greed good it's not good

or bad it's just human that's something i say all the time like stop trying to categorize things into like black or white nothing is like that you know right yeah it's humans are not some humans are good sometimes they're bad other times and plus what the hell is good or bad that's also subjective and i'm going to talk about that later on because it's also very important oh freaks this about morality this might be a three-hour ripper we've got really how long is this i mean we've only checked off one and a half of of i think the six six box list right oh how long have we been on this we're an hour and 15 and almost hour 10 well let's not uh let's not uh tire out our audience that much and try to uh i think they'll listen to it no matter what thank you you're too

kind marty uh so back coming back to greed so what bitcoin does it takes human greed and it turns it on its head so yes greed makes people do things that can be seen as evil but bitcoin makes sure it takes use it takes advantage of that greed and ensures the integrity of the system so this is like that is just so so incredibly new that they're able to if you're going to spin zone greed it's like all right let's spin it into creating the securest monetary system the world has ever seen exactly and i'm not going to get into all the incentives about like i don't know the hodlers and the miners and all that stuff we all know about that but i think what's even more important is uh oh by the way you should definitely check out uh another article by

hugo hugo and go in uh it's called bitcoin's incentive scheme and rational individual yeah hugo at hugo hanoi yeah on twitter he has a great h-u-g-o-h-a-n-o-i right yeah yep uh all right and yeah can't think right now so anyways i'm not going to get into the all the all the technical and all the incentives within the system because we've all talked about them a lot but i think what's also more important to think about is the incentives outside of the bitcoin community that propel bitcoin further so given the fact that bitcoin is a neutral money meaning that it's not affiliated with any one particular country it's not like a u.s project or it's not a chinese mining facility like you know it's everywhere in the world it's an internet project bro exactly

it's open source it can be given that fact it can be argued that countries institutions and various people worldwide in the long run if they're smart of course they are disincentivized from banning or restricting bitcoin's use and development and why is that it is because given the fact that bitcoin is designed to exist and not only exist but also thrive in an adversarial environment a particular country say the united states stands to lose by banning bitcoin as the developers the users the companies and everyone using and working on bitcoin which is an industry at the forefront of technological and economic innovation all of these people would simply relocate to a more accommodating jurisdiction and given the tense

international relations and rivalry among the world's superpowers like the u.s and china and etc it is practically impossible to imagine that all of these countries would cooperate together to dismantle bitcoin with like some multi-nation coordinated attack against bitcoin mining like you know why like they never done that that would be unprecedented and they would never do that like at least that's my belief so the fact that also the idea the fact that we were all we were talking about a lot about the u.s dollar today the fact that the u.s dollar it has been the world's reserve currency for the last half a century if not more gives the united states an unfair advantage over a lot over the rest of the world because everyone every other country depends on the u.s

monetary policy like so many countries hold and i think it's imperative to tie oil into this in particular so the petrodollar yeah is a is a more apt description of what you're describing so like every country in the world needs to convert their native currency into U.S. dollars to buy oil from Saudi Arabia and OPEC right now. And oil is obviously the go-to fuel choice for the world. Exactly. And U.S. is taking advantage of all of that to basically ensure that its claws are very deep inside the system.

Yeah, we're getting a little vague on everything. If you're going to buy oil, you've got to go through us. Exactly. and so the idea is that many i think that many countries if not most of them stand to gain from bitcoin's adoption as that that adoption would remove their dependence on the u.s dollar and provide them with a very feasible alternative and i think that it is likely that in in the future that some nations are going to start adopting bitcoin as a reserve currency and the the what i just said does the value proposition that bitcoin has as a alternative uh global money

store value will become increasingly clear and to talk to talk about the incentives that exist outside of just like hodlers hodling and miners mining and basically all that yeah it's uh like what happens when the first central bank does announce that they're putting bitcoin on their reserves do you think it incites a mad dash or do you think yeah i think it will most likely have some kind of domino effect like where others like oh god we need to do this quickly too you know right yeah we don't want to be the nobody wants to be the first nobody wants to be the last so as long as i'm interested to see who the wily central bank out there in the world is who doesn't even wait for a custodial fucking service and just buys a bunch of treasures goes full chad

i mean maybe figures it out we don't know maybe they're already doing it like with mining you know they can mine it and people wouldn't know that they're like buying well it's obvious that the venezuela government is i mean it's been proved i mean yeah it confiscated mining and mining hardware and used it themselves so there definitely is a government mining out there yeah so it does that but venezuela maybe that's not the first domino to follow maybe it needs to be like that domino it's not very stable to fall in the first place okay i i'm sorry we shouldn't should laugh about this it's actually very tragic what's going on in venezuela uh yes yes and i think that i hope that bitcoin will do its best to uh help relieve people from what what is going

on there and from the from all the tyranny yeah uh but i think we're moving towards that direction where bitcoin can help whoever you are on the socio uh economic hierarchy it doesn't matter whether you are i don't know some some important person in the fed or if you are somebody who is who is uh who has a lot of difficulty meeting uh just like getting by in their everyday life like in venezuela they can still make take advantage of what bitcoin gives them and basically better their their financial and just like human standing in in this in this point in time and later yeah i'm very optimistic i'm very impressed by the uh sort of the strength of some of the venezuelans particularly the bitcoin community that are working hard to to make

things better and make things as good as possible considering the situation and just to be clear like i was saying uh it's not a very good domino for other governments to follow like it's not power for governments to follow maduro down a path of mining bitcoin um but i do think like chiefy shout out chiefy he has a chiefy nundum he was on this podcast like a year he went pretty dark and i think he's been on a mission to convince some some africans to think about maybe acquiring some bitcoin and i think that is a situation maybe we're like a nagano or uh a nigeria central uh zimbabwean central bank decides to put some some bitcoin on their their balance sheet i think that could be a good first domino to fall that would make

people wake up and be like oh shit yeah i mean the risk reward uh is just like so it could like the risk is there of course there's a risk of course there's risk in anything but the potential reward is just so huge that not allocating at least a small like a very small percent of your uh wealth into bitcoin does increasingly become to seem very irrational like because maybe what else maybe in 10 years you will you will have to rebalance your portfolio because now that makes 99 of what you have you know right because that's like that's what happened to some people right it's uh again i've been telling again like the the asymmetry of the the payoff to to the loss at this point at this particular juncture at a 70 billion dollar

market cap four thousand dollar per btc cost roughly it's uh it's better than sports gambling and buying lottery tickets i was at the bodega earlier people at the bodega especially down the for me it's like a very hot lottery bodega there's just like always people buying scratch offs scratching them just like waiting in there for like 20 minutes to win it's like i just always think like download the cash app instead of spending 20 dollars on these scratch offs like just buy a bitcoin like that is evil right you know that's like the devil not in disguise like the devil like my mom plays a lottery and she knows it pisses me off i'm like ma please stop the chances are so small that you'll never win so yeah for any of you freaks

out there playing the lottery please stop and sports gambling just don't stop just stop you're just burning money yeah absolutely your chances of making a huge return by investing into bitcoin are definitely absolutely more promising than winning the lottery no question like i feel bad even making this parallel right bitcoin is not sports betting is not even worthy of standing being mentioned in the same sentence as bitcoin no but anyways so if you're looking to pay your bookie in a somewhat synonymous way bitcoin may be your maybe your option are they legalizing like a lot of it's legalized here in new jersey i believe new jersey everyone goes in new jersey like during the yeah during the games i believe it's coming to the new york

state soon i would imagine that starts a domino effect too yeah so another uh coming back to the article i wrote about the incentives that are more more general in terms of like how to incentivize people to do things and i think that we realize more and more time and again that time that people they are not willing to really change themselves change the way they act change the way they go about their life get out of their comfort zone whatever because they have little to gain from whatever you ask them to do and that doesn't really create any meaningful results but what on the other hand does is incentivizing these people is creating aligned system of incentives where there are certain uh there's a certain intended behavior

that you are seeking out from them is rewarded in a way that they value and in a way that they want to continue to act accordingly and like nowadays like i always hear like how people complain about like you know amazon is so evil or i don't know this company is so evil they are paying this much they're not paying enough they should be doing this and like you have to think that we all like every single person wants to what's the best for everyone else i mean there are of course there are people who are evil but on like i think on average like everyone would wish that the world would be a better place but like that's not enough and just wishing and hoping is definitely like you the the world turns out very differently than what we want it to be don't

tell the socialists that so i think that once again the human greed greed stands in the way of any decision any desired change or any impact that we want to see happen in the world and we need to understand that like oftentimes people have no choice but to forego or give up on their quote-unquote moral beliefs or quote-unquote social responsibility in the face of financial and personal difficulties so like most people are simply trying to like you really don't understand like most of this world is just trying to get by get by earn something and provide for their families that's it most of this country is paycheck to paycheck exactly and even that like it's a stretch like exactly and then walking walking around like blaming everyone for the

fact that they are not doing something for the sake of something else like sometimes you're just asking too much like you know these people are they once again we all prioritize ourselves not because we're selfish i mean we're we are selfish to some extent but because we're human if you don't do this then you are you're not going to survive yes exactly thank you exactly what i wanted to and most like yeah most people are just trying to get by and in the light of understanding this it becomes increasingly clear that people expecting people to get out of their way to do something for someone else is like counterintuitive like you know sometimes like of course not always but like and at least it does

it will definitely not create sustainable results so i like to think about the fact that like humanitarian and philanthropic efforts they don't like scale very well and like redistribution schemes that a lot of scams dude anything like a foundation or like yeah like the red cross turns out to like never get as much 90 of like the aid that went to africa actually got like lost in like some bureaucratic yeah probably got spent on marketing or some shit or just basically stolen yeah that's actually very sad uh and so basically these humanitarian efforts don't scale and the redistribution schemes that we just talked about they're too vulnerable to some kind of like you know single points of failure and like eventually human greed i mean human greed is the cause of all

these the reasons why it doesn't turn out the way we want it to be finds its way to like somehow penetrate into that system and like make itself known like captures it exactly and i think that the biggest impact that anything can have and anything does have comes from aligned incentives and rewarding individuals for creative a positive change that you want to see and any change for that matter so these are the systems that are scalable the ones that include incentives like a incentive system that actually works and that actually rewards people for maintaining and acting

in accordance with the rules. And they work, these systems, because they don't depend on the finite sources of human compassion, like humanitarian or philanthropic or some kind of efforts that people are demanding. you have to do this no you have to pay them higher wage no you have to spend this much on uh this i don't know social project well yes sure the thing is that like whenever you hear like i don't know

the society like another side just people screaming like amazon do this uh you have to jeff bezos you have to do spend your billions on these people or give it away like what happens most of this time like it gets allocated shittily like it gets allocated so there is i wrote about this in the bent i didn't believe it was last week like especially with tax dollars like the military industrial complex in particular is a fucking shining example of how wasteful and inefficient the government is with our tax dollars a story came out in particular that the government was buying face cream face cream moisturizer and small tubes typically worth 30 dollars over the counter they were paying they were paying 14 000 dollars per tube they spent

65 million dollars on face cream and paid 14 000 dollars per tube for a 30 tube of face cream like that is where our tax money is going and you have a growing call of socialism in this country and a green new deal in this country and a new infrastructure project for this company and how can we honestly feel okay handing our money over to a system that is that terribly inefficient they are paying 550 times the amount of the cost of the price the face cream excuse me for that is just incredibly hold it to your mouth yeah like it's the fact that people don't understand that like central planning you thought you thought they overpaid by like 1x they were paid by 550x you were like oh what would they pay like 80 i thought that was like

too much maybe it was like 20 like no they paid 14 000 for like a 16 ounce tube of cream are you fucking kidding me and people want to fucking take more tax money from no but they're going to redistribute it to the people in the in need i'm kidding i hope they do but like it's not because once again not because they're necessarily bad or good it's because like humans are that way that they are going to they are self-motivated they are going to prioritize themselves they are going to be able to somehow sneak into the system and somehow like take piece of the pie for themselves and that's okay but you need to understand you need to come to terms with that and work from there you can't just like hope that everyone is going to be infinitely compassionate

and we're going to live in a happy world like it's it's okay it's okay for people not to always be angels you know and well coming back to like no matter how much you scream at someone and tell them to pay a higher wage or give away their power like they're not going to do that like what what is going to happen is that like their pr team is going to launch a little campaign make a minimal minimal effort they don't only just to simply maintain the brand image and that's it like because why because such methods don't create meaningful results as the incentives are on the individual level they're not aligned they're one-sided the individuals on one side stand to benefit the ones who demand the change while the individuals on the other side they

stand to lose they have to give up much of what they're already so used to like why the hell would they do that right you know i'm not gonna give up something i'm speaking from their their perspective and bitcoin is fundamentally different bitcoin has created this unique incentive system where the incentives are aligned on both sides and this comes back to the idea that adoption of bitcoin has great potential to to benefit all kinds of people on individual level like like i said like no matter where you are on the socio-economic hierarchy you are going to be better off and that's amazing right it's like it the incentives it's not a it's like it's not a fixed pie like this here we're not dividing it we're not redistributing we're creating we're creating

it you know we're creating value right and it's why i don't want to sound pompous here but like why is it so hard for people to understand that like let's get into like people not understanding money i guess unless you're still got some some time to go down this thought experiment yeah no just to just to conclude with the incentives i think what i wrote in the article in the end i said don't expect people to be good expect people to act in their own self-interest and if everybody acts in their self-interest in a system of rules that rewards good behavior then good behavior emerges naturally so i think that is precisely what bitcoin is doing instead of hoping and demanding people to change and to be different to go against their human nature in in certain ways

it just it doesn't try to denounce human nature instead it embraces it and makes the best makes the best of it that turns its on its head and ensures its integrity and again like maybe it's obvious to us because we've been in this for so long but like how do you think or what is the the fastest course through which people can can come to this understanding and this realization i mean have you had many breakthroughs trying to explain bitcoin and no corners or i think i'm in the process of of like getting closer to that breakthrough with a lot of people and i think it takes time and once again i think it takes you can't just you can't just sit down one night and explain everything and have them and bring them on

your side no you can't do that you need a number of interactions you need a certain number of um like signals that you send them like they need to like you know how we always talk about how like the first time i saw i read about bitcoin 2013 i was like what is this scam then i read about it oh 2014 it was still around hmm interesting then 2015 oh it's rising price blah blah blah blah blah oh 2017 maybe i should freaking get into this because it doesn't seem to fail it just goes it's anti-fragile it's all of those good things like you know and the more the mini the number the more the more times you get exposed to it the more you're like it's like listening to a song like the first time you say it sucks second time it's okay and then the third

time oh my god i'm in love with the song this is a banger bruh you know no i know that feeling yeah no it doesn't seem to go away and if something doesn't go away maybe you should pay attention to it no that's something you talk about like something i learned from the the podcast uh advertising game at barstool and something like that when you're pitching advertisers like it takes multiple touches to get through yep to consumers and and i think as bitcoiners and as people tried to explain and educate people uh about this technology and in this movement i would call it this revolution this mission that we're on i think uh as a collective we should work to to get the amount of touches needed to to have a sort of aha moment when explaining to

newbies uh it needs to we should target a very low number and try to decrease the number of touches as much as possible yeah and and i think that's been the mission of this bear market like you say you find a lot of the signal through the noise when things quiet down and prices aren't as volatile as they were in 2017 and that's something in this bear market in particular that i don't really believe happened last bar bear market at least definitely not as uh intensely as it is this time around is is people really working on sharpening the narrative and and streamlining the message through which people come to understand bitcoin yeah so i think the bear market is a great thing the bear market allows you to accumulate more bitcoin the bitcoin allows you to learn

about bitcoin more and from better sources because it's not like oh it's not like crazy panicky uh uh environment where everyone is just talking about it telling you what to trade and what to pump exactly yeah you can just like you can take your time once again like you remember with the savings you can take your time and think about like what i should invest in whether and you you have the time to inevitably have high a higher level of conviction because if you study enough if you study bitcoin enough then i'm almost certainly sure that you will be uh convinced yeah yeah no and i think we're getting close man i think people i think people are starting to question there's a lot of uh a lot of macro events not events themes a lot of macro themes

sort of coalescing right now that are very much pushing people towards bitcoin i would argue they they may not know it the people that are being pushed towards it but uh they're the events happening around the world obviously populism uh hyperinflation in some countries like venezuela argentina uh sort of nationalism brexit the euro having a lot of coming out of nowhere right there are reasons why that is happening people exactly as you said they might not be consciously aware of it but like the social unconscious or like i don't know even on a deeper level like they know that there's something wrong and they know that like this is unfair like what the hell why am i why am i being paid less why am i why is my purchasing power decreases why like why am i

being taxed more why yeah like how am i losing my purchasing power and getting taxed more every year at the same time like again whereas like the world that we live in is fundamentally like a like like when i when people discredit like when they like attack deflation like deflation spirals that brings me back to like what i was saying earlier like is there a conspiracy like how can you honestly think deflation is bad how do you how can you think that the ability to buy more things with yeah the money that you've accrued is a bad thing most important industry in this world technology is the most prime example of deflation working and creating value exactly yeah two people created instagram a four billion dollar company when it sold to facebook

you have to understand that like people uh like if deflation were bad then why would people be willing to buy an iphone xs or whatever today over buying it next year because the next year is going to decrease in price and you will be able to buy it much cheaper like people are still willing to consume it's not a problem of demand i think it was jeff deist the president of mises institute on the stefan liveros podcast in beginning of uh january he said that there's no problem with demand you don't like you don't need to incentive you don't need to stimulate demand there's always demand everyone wants bigger house everyone wants more stuff right it's not a problem there's no problem with that it's a problem of people's imaginations are infinite and exactly so

imaginations come with desires you shouldn't be scared of deflation like it's fine like you are supposed to like as technology as we have better technology we are supposed to be able to consume better things we are supposed to become more efficient we're supposed to become more productive and that's fine right this brings me back to like is there like a fucking conspiracy like on the monetary level to like hold back society hold back humanity to an extent once again i don't think there's like a conspiracy i think that that's the way the things played out and that type of uh reality benefits certain people who are able to maintain well i mean not really anymore maintain right yeah yeah it may not be able to maintain it for much longer yeah i don't

that lady i don't think the dollar is going to keep its purchasing power i can that much longer i think i can hear the fat lady warming up in the corner i think she's working those vocals right now going through going through uh the bars yeah so i think it's not necessarily conspiracy it's just that like that's the way things played out and they benefit certain people at the cost of other people and nobody really wants to change anything or at least those who do are unable to but we'll see i don't know yeah and yeah so where were we where were we before we're just we're just riffing there yeah but like talking about like is there a conspiracy an immortal conspiracy or whatever like positing that question obviously

you don't think it's conspiracy you think it's more cunningham's law is it cunningham's law rossum's razor ockham's razor that's what it is um speaking of that like bitcoin let's get into this like bitcoin is just software and is it amoral or is there a moral argument to be made great for thank you thank you for that perfect uh segue you're welcome i'm king of segues here so yeah so i think that morality is definitely something that it has definitely been a a recurring theme uh through this this episode for that for us but i think morality is something that people are always concerned with and they always make these value judgments and try to say like this is moral no this is immoral like you know but i'm going you like i'm going to let you

in on a little secret i don't think that bitcoin is either moral or immoral it is amoral which is different and people always confuse the word words immoral with amoral yeah immoral means that something does not conform to accepted standards of morality whereas amoral means that something is unconcerned with the rightness or the wrongness or the nature of of that morality is derived uh on a layer above that exactly that amoral layer and i think this is the beauty of it because it is not moral it's immoral it's unconcerned it's amoral and the people who use it are immoral or amoral or excuse me immoral or moral and probably some people if they were to listen to this would be like what do you mean if it's immoral if it's if it's not

moral then why is it good right but you have to understand that what is considered moral today is considered immoral tomorrow and vice versa and this happens all the time throughout human history we all people are very very prone to changing their opinions and minds and traditions about different things and like i'm sure there are there are things that we do today in our daily life that would be deemed just absolutely horrendous and inappropriate several maybe several decades ago even let alone 100 centuries and there's going to be stuff that we gay marriage bruh i know yeah exactly like that's ridiculous to think about that i mean still but anyways the point is that the point is that we change and nobody nobody is constantly and this idea of

morality it also changes it's very very uh prone to being subject to trends so you can't really like say bitcoin is moral because if bitcoin is moral today probably tomorrow somebody's gonna come out and say this is immoral man like we've changed and this no longer fits our understanding of reality it depends what your hashtag flavor of the week is exactly yes you can't you know and you a few weeks uh people were coming to the fence at jesse smollett there's a lot of a lot of crickets on twitter yeah that's a great example i mean i don't try to uh really delve into we don't need to delve into that if you guys want to delve into that i highly recommend going and finding the charles barkley clip from a tnt basketball last night uh during the halftime show and his comments

on the situation some of the funniest comedy i've seen in a long time that that's all we have to say about that yeah but i i think it's a good example of just like looking at events like that it's a good example to be able to understand how fickle the reality is and how like today today reality can be manufactured exactly like like what i like to say is that like you know he who he or she or they whoever uh who is powerful is the one who is able to manipulate the truth because the truth is not absolute absolute the truth is always subject to to the trends to context exactly yeah and if you can manipulate the truth then you you got it right but exactly that's when that's when we come to bitcoin bitcoin minimizes the ability to manipulate this truth anyways uh so as i was

saying uh bitcoin is just software it's not concerned with morality it's and being concerned with morality isn't necessarily good because we as we just established morality is always changing and morality is super subjective like somebody might think this is moral i might think this is immoral like you know it and it doesn't matter right you know you want you want a tool that best view can use regardless of what you view as moral or immoral exactly like i mean with the internet i mean this has been said many times like the first uses of the internet were porn i don't know them uh drug dealers or whatever i don't know but and people back in the 90s they would say like no we're never going to use something that like i don't know porn websites use for

but now we see that everything has changed and porn only makes up very small very tiny percent of what internet is all about you know right and for for those who try to discredit bitcoin by saying oh no this drug dealer used bitcoin once yeah okay money launderers more more drug dealers are definitely using dollars the most most drug dealers and most uh criminals in the world are using dollars and hey for you freaks out there who are not aware hsbc has been fined in the past for creating specific teller windows fashioned in a certain way so mexican drug lords could launder cash in briefcases through a traditional banking system so why don't you hear more about that type of stuff well you don't you don't hear much about that type of stuff no you never hear

about it you don't hear about ubs got fined this week four billion dollars i believe for money laundering uh nobody's going to ubs's headquarters and threatening to shut them down or or telling governments to shut them down oh yeah no because there are there are a lot of more important things and there are more important things but definitely not the ones that are being publicized more than the events where billions of dollars right so it's like a false equivalency and that that's why i'm so optimistic about bitcoin it's like all right these are like your biggest arguments and like jimmy diamond screaming about this shit as the system that he works within is enabling it tenfold it's like all right like it works for you so it will probably work for us too in the future

so oh man i love bitcoin um so the point is that bitcoin is amoral which allows it to no it doesn't allow anything it's just like bitcoin is as they say bitcoin isn't that's enough so bitcoin doesn't make value judgments bitcoin doesn't discriminate because it cannot it's just software that is has like is a consensus of of this of all these different people around the world that you cannot really change in your favor you know and unlike the traditional system that we that we operate in today bitcoin is not partial towards anyone bitcoin is not malleable and it cannot be interpreted in a certain way to benefit one party or another party like law often is like you can't hire a more expensive lawyer who has a good team of other lawyers who are going to

basically make sure that you're uh you are going to win in court that's not going to happen yeah Code is law. And that's when Ethereum did the... The DAO fork. The DAO fork. That's when they lost all the credibility and they can never, ever recover from that. I was actually...

I don't think I've ever admitted this on this podcast, but I was an Ethereum bull until the DAO fork. I was like, all right. You just completely shot yourself in the foot there. How is that different from what we work with today? I mean, how is that... Like, this is the same thing. People just change whatever they don't like.

That's it. But no, that's... See, that's how truth is so subjective. So, like, Ethereum Classic is the real Ethereum. Like, you know? What the hell? It is the original train. Yeah.

If I were to set up a node... Ethereum is the Bitcoin cash. Is it Bitcoin SV now? How many times have they forked since? Right? And it's like... All right, let's have a little tangent riff on Ethereum here. Like, dude, their transition to 2.0, like...

you want to talk about like propaganda and orwellian word speak ethereum has basically admitted that the first iteration of their project is a complete and utter failure like they had to create a whole new chain to make their vision practical and on top of that it's apparently like i've read the specs like it's a 10 phase process that may happen or excuse me a seven phase process that may happen over the course of 10 years compound the probabilities of that yes especially like it's like all right we have phase one figured out we have phase two figured out we have parts of phase three figured out but we'll figure out the rest of the four and a half phases go let's just wing it

so are you fucking kidding me like but like sometimes i feel like i'm taking crazy pills people are still standing by like saying that it's legitimate it's decentralized it's successful it's useful it has utility and is their maker doubt really worth that much i don't know like to be honest i don't i try to keep an open mind but throughout time i do i have decreased the amount of time that i spend like looking and learning about other projects because like i realize that more and more that there aren't there there aren't that many things except for bitcoin that are actually worthy of my or anyone else's time really yeah and yeah there might be some kind of projects that are interesting and that might that might uh i don't think that like

i don't know i don't think that all altcoins are scams per se but most of them are either very very uh disillusioned and they are unable to really get a grip with reality and that's why they're going somewhere they don't know where and they hope that is going to work out but i don't think that if we're trying to build a global financial rebuild the global financial system we can't like we can't have can't fucking wing it yeah that's not going to work right that's what draws me to bitcoin and why i tend to focus on bitcoin in particular and the bent and on this podcast is because it feels like it's a project that works and it's basically like a stone where you're basically carving the michelangelo or excuse me carving the david out

of it um yeah and just basically tightening and refining it you're not sort of figuring out what the stone is that you're going to eventually carve the david into we've already started we're a decade in and just perfecting it at this point i like the metaphor um so as i was as i was saying like bitcoin is fundamentally different from the world that we live in today because it's uh it is not malleable in the same way that the current system is like the law is malleable like if you have the best lawyer then chances are you're going to win the you're going to win the in the court you know and there's no there's no leeway there's no room for interpretation there's no malleability all these things create massive vulnerabilities

and create massive like single points of failure that bitcoin does best to eliminate which is messaging protocol it's like hey you sent this at this time yeah now it sits here and if you have this private key you can move this utx yeah uh is that too simple or no i think bitcoin is uh i think morad says this and vortex says this all the time uh bitcoin is just it's i mean not exactly but you should think of it as an excel spreadsheet with a strictly limited number of rows and columns like it's like basically like manhattan real estate but unlike manhattan real state they can vertically basically go up and increase the number of apartments or whatever it's quasi two-dimensional yeah it's quasi that's awesome yeah and if you want to have access if you

want to own a uh cell in this excel spreadsheet then you'll have to pay that premium you can't it cannot be expanded beyond 21 million and that's it like because money like you have to understand what money is like once again i had this uh tweet the other day that said if you don't have a deep understanding of what money is functions of money monetary history money properties that fulfill its various functions then don't you dare to criticize bitcoin and who the hell are you like who are you how are you an authority to tell me why bitcoin is bad or good so people are so quick bitcoin is bad wait do you know what bitcoin is uh no but i know it's price it's crazy like people most people 99 of the people they don't know what bitcoin is and they

have never heard of what bitcoin maybe they have but they don't know what bitcoin is they only know what its price is even the ones who say that oh i know bitcoin no you don't know bitcoin you only know that it's 3800 and it lost 84 percent of its value since it's all-time high blah blah blah blah blah yeah that's not the point you don't understand the value proposition then if you don't understand what bitcoin is how can you even know what it should be worth right exactly how can you attempt to critique it or or to uh value it how can you do that you can't that's my favorite uh favorite troll to the no coiners on twitter shout out adam singer david gerrard just be like all right how does bitcoin work have you ever downloaded a wallet used a private key like

explain how bitcoin works to me and why you hate it and and and how try to come at me with like reason debate about why bitcoin working the way it does is bad or good for society and nine times out of ten it's like oh no like no clear answer like nobody can do it like nobody puts in the effort to understand what they're critiquing and and that's the funny thing like i find about like bitcoiners debating like i got i got like a little debate with like a finnish economist like from the bank uh the central bank of finland today on twitter like i got it there's so many economists right but it's like that's where i think we're also advantaged as bitcoiners i think we like especially you and i in particular where we

had the fortune of studying economics in college and really understanding like the belly of the monster that we're trying to destroy and like the not trying to destroy but trying to replace and for good reasons not for anything evil or anything we honestly think this is a better system but we understand both more innately than they they only understand one side and it's like that gives me comfort in knowing that like all right i've actually done my homework and you haven't yeah exactly it's that's and again talking about the asymmetry of the potential returns like this information asymmetry like still exists like there's a huge chasm between people have actually studied traditional economics and bitcoin and trying to see where bitcoin fits into

a world of economics and if you i do believe like if you understand i could be wrong we could be wrong you can see that but if you do believe that you truly understand both it becomes obvious that bitcoin is the natural progression of money especially as we move into the information age into the digital age there's no there's nothing like it's a no-brainer

if you understand the trend that we're on right now yeah I wrote the other day internet allowed you to never have to go to the library

and Bitcoin will allow you to never have to go to the bank as simple as that I saw somebody try to steal that tweet don't

don't get me started alright we won't we won't get into it the amount of people that steal like content

your content on Twitter it's just ridiculous i don't understand like why people do that and they don't even they don't even be flattered you should be flat oh yeah i guess but like to be on no like this time it was a like a it was like a uh respectable respectable uh accounts that did it before yeah before it was just random people but anyways i don't i don't hold grudge anyways uh as i was saying you were talking about the traditional like how we are fortunate enough to have an education in economics and understand some parts of it but to be honest like i feel like the traditional system like traditional academia uh especially like with regards to economics it doesn't really teach you

everything that you need to know no i'm not saying like it's good knowledge you know i'm saying it's good to know when you're debating these people like their premise and where they're coming from it's easier to understand what the tax area is with debate like hey I fucking studied this I know exactly

what you're talking about and you're disregarding so much yes exactly you're just like you're disregarding so many schools of thought

so many years of research so many piles of data and evidence it's just funny like you know right

it's the cognitive like it's been another seamless podcast the cognitive dissonance that exists in the world in all aspects of life is mind-blowing like it worries me like cognitive dissonance is synonymous with detachment from reality and it's like i just want people to get closer to reality like

yes the reality especially our debt situation in the world may be shit and may be pretty dire but like let's just acknowledge it and try to figure out how to fix it and that's why we have this podcast that's why i write the bent that's why you tweet that's why you write and we think bitcoin is a solution to this overarching problem that's causing people to put their heads in the sand and And it's like, all right, we'll sit our heads out of the sand and have a reasoned debate. The solution may exist. We're working on building out the infrastructure to make it happen. And anybody can participate.

We're looking for help. If you're down for the cause, let's make it happen. It's amazing how open this is. Come join. You're not restricted. I'm not the boss here. There's no CEO who is going to interview you. Who may know your father who went to the same frat as he did.

And now he's going to get you in, you know, because they were friends and now you have the connection. No, it's just because if you can contribute, if you want to contribute, if you are on board with this. If you are willing and able, Bitcoin is there for you to help out. Yeah. And the mission is clear. Like we're here. And regardless of whether you're doing that, it will still help you. Exactly.

It's like a merciless force. You will submit to the will of Bitcoin. Wait, no, not merciless. I'm sorry. It's merciful. fool it's actually even if yes even if you hate it even if the no-coiner is spewing against it it's going to help your life it's going to make you better off in the end yeah even though we don't like you bitcoin sorry bitcoin you're merciful not merciless that's definitely not

what i was supposed to say but also it's merciless in is going to not let anyone stand in its way so it's both yes exactly so yeah so with regards to the traditional academia and education like like you don't really get to learn much about uh the unorthodox so to speak quote unquote that's schools of thought of like economics in economics so i've heard about this like think about like how crazy like the fact that it's not so obvious that it is crazy that economics at most universities i can't speak they don't even say anything like so you're supposed to like if you like think about the concept of majoring in a subject and going to master that subject you at least have to know like you should know the whole spectrum types of ideas the schools of thoughts

at least but no you're like literally confined and siloed to this one school of thought yeah you get a degree that says hey i mastered this subject but really you didn't you mastered one school of thought in a in a subject that's been growing for thousands of years yeah like in psychology you got freudian you got gestalt you've got i don't know union you look at every different one you take the best from each because none of them are actually like absolute truth yeah but here now we're just we're just keynesians that's all right but nobody don't you dare talk about those austrians oh my gosh don't one time i had a presentation and i had uh i had some slides like zero hedge data like zero hedge pulled some slides from the fed research and i just

screenshotted attributed to them but like got yelled at by a professor like don't use that like propaganda site what no it's like are you kidding me like like that's how like and this was back when zero hedge was pure like back in like 2010 2011 like when they were like fresh off the financial crisis really like data driven and not fear-mongering as hard as they are now definitely fear-mongering a little bit but like it was more data driven back in that day and yet it was data don't you use it don't you don't you dare marty right why because it doesn't fit your narrative exactly much exactly so yeah so unfortunately you kind of have to make your own way into the rabbit hole of austrian economics i mean of course it's driven by bitcoin but

yeah to be honest like most of the austrian econ that i've learned about was on my own like reading books on the internet mysis like i got into austrian economics in college again be a zero hedge just like sharing mysis.org yeah it's an amazing looks like there's so many the amount of resources that are available for free it's crazy like you don't need to buy anything there's so many books and articles right yeah it's um go read your guido holzman he's so pure and listen to his his talks he's given plenty of talks on youtube oh yeah no they're lucky he's still young he's still like in his 40s or early 50s i believe um and a great economic thinker like your profile picture is one of my favorite books on economics that i've read like last three

years the money production go read like on the ethics money production i literally have the three pages like embedded in my head like from page 70 to 72 and he just perfectly describes like the the inefficient capital allocation that happens in an easy monetary because the price signals are distorted and when the price signals are distorted then clearly you're going to have inefficiencies clearly you're you're going to have misallocation of resources it's like uh back in the soviet union um when the central planning committees they were trying to uh make sure they were trying to enforce these rules that a uh a loaf of bread is supposed to be one ruble wherever be it in the very uh farther most uh eastern point of soviet union which is like vladivostok

which is literally near japan or in kaliningrad which is uh which is literally like poland or like no germany like near germany i think which is crazy different populations different populations different cultures different everything different economies different resources so this highlights It's actually like a... Sorry for interrupting. So they want it to everywhere be one ruble. That is impossible. It's clearly going to be mispriced

and that leads to deficit almost all the time. And that's what was the case. People had to have some kind of tickets for... Famous bread lines, maybe. Yeah, exactly. And all the shops were empty and it doesn't work. And this actually... Even on a smaller microcosm in disaster scenarios

where people fight for price fixing during hurricanes. Like, after a hurricane, if, like, a neighborhood's flooded and what you'll see is, like, literally natural capitalistic things happen. Like, people aren't going to be able to get water or food into the city while there's a disaster going on. So you have prices for these goods sort of skyrocket, especially if, like, you have looting going on and people get, like, a bunch of all the water. Like, you're going to start gouging people for it. And a lot of people would argue that, like, we need, like, civil price fixing during these times. But, like, you need to let these price discovery mechanisms play out in these scenarios as well, which is a highly debated and interesting topic to think about in that little microcosm. Yeah.

For sure. Absolutely. We got thoughts. Do you agree with that? Do you not agree with that? i think that the markets are most efficient when they are uh left to their own devices mm-hmm and like capitalism always wins you have to understand that and once again like capitalism like

in the soviet union the word capitalism was uh uh was equivalent to like the the worst curse like you're a capitalist that's like worse than being the biggest offender like criminal which is like clearly yeah of course there's propaganda but

but so we've seen Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore so that system didn't prove to be very efficient at allocating resources or doing anything else for that matter so let's jump into this you're a native of a post-Soviet country

what was it like growing up in azer jaban like how has azer jaban changed throughout your lifetime throughout your parents lifetime what can you say somebody from from the soviet bloc i think azerbaijan changed definitely for the better after uh after leaving i mean after the um soviet union no longer existed because it uh was able to like back in the soviet times like every single republic every single country that was part of the soviet union they they basically had to like answer to moscow so whatever moscow says that has to be done and that really i think strips the little republic little country anything any culture of neuters them right Yeah, of their independence, of their ability to evolve as a people.

And that really tries to, like, creates this, like, form of mimicry that everyone's trying to be like these guys. But why should we be like these guys? We have our own traditions. We have our own culture. You can't just come and just say, like, you're going to live by our rules. and like soviet union has been like basically 70 years of uh involuntary absolutely involuntary uh just take over of all these exactly of all these countries that have their own cultures

that have their own values that are different so what are the values of azer jaban the values of azerbaijan it's i think very am i pronouncing that okay azerbaijan azerbaijan yeah uh i'm consulting i'm sorry if i'm being it's it's azerbaijan you won't forget it now it's my philly accent coming up uh i think azerbaijan it's a part of the caucasus so yeah i mean this is funny when everyone says i'm a caucasian uh in in america and they're like really no i don't even know what everyone's going to the caucasus i don't even know what that means caucasus is like this area uh in the caucasus mountains like near the caucasus mountains it spans like a couple country azerbaijan uh georgia some republics in russia like tagestan like some of these

and that's that's what caucasus is and uh never knew that yeah never knew that's where caucasian came from yeah i mean yeah that's it i've been forced to uh to check off caucasian my whole life i have no idea what the fuck it means so yeah so i think that whole region and azerbaijan it's very the values are really like familial values everyone uh pays uh respects to like elders their families i mean that's that's i've never really had a culture shock because i was to a large extent exposed to like western culture since childhood uh but that's something that i feel is different here in the united states and in much of the many western countries is that like people the connection between like within families is not always very like close you know like

sometimes you can a child can be kicked out of the house at one day when they hit when they're of age or no concept of the wayward son that's allowed to come back to open arms yeah i mean of course it's it all depends on people but like or like the elderly homes are definitely not as common in our in like our region because like people like you have to you have to respect your parents and have them when they are when they are in in when they become uh they they need somebody to take care of them they come live with you or you i don't know you provide for them you take care of them so that is that is a difference and like that is very like very that's at the core of that kind of culture family values no i agree and i respect the fuck

out of that and as somebody who's been lucky enough to have i mean i don't want to say lucky that i've had three grandparents pass but lucky that i've had three grandparents that were able to live um sort of independently until never lived in a home and sort of lived with their spouses and their families throughout their lives and then particularly like towards the end of lives especially the tail end of their lives uh instead of dying in a hospital all three of my grandparents up to this point have died on hospice which is actually like a very powerful powerful thing like being able to be there during their their last days and be with in your own home or their home uh there's something something to be said about that

about being there and sort of being at the the core of where their family started i'm getting emotional now like uh you know in their own way alone is definitely one of the saddest probably things yeah no but it's something i i hope in my family at least that tradition carries on yeah well that's why i think you have to really try your best to garner and to cultivate these these values within your own family like you know you care you you remember when whose birthday is you remember to call i don't know your parents almost every every day you can you know it doesn't become just some kind of yeah mom i'm sorry for ignoring your call we're recording though all right can't interrupt the call with a call from the recording with a call from mom no but i think

it is important this it's a bit taboo today too to to talk about like a secure family in america yeah in particular like there's definitely like some kind of shift in that sense like right family values are now the counter counterculture right no exactly and this and we were talking about netflix earlier and like people short attention spans but it's not even that but like even the programming on netflix a lot of the shows are like a bunch of 30 somethings just wandering aimlessly through through life like not wanting to have kids polyamorously living fucking everybody and it's like it seems we are losing that family connection no i think i think of course it's not for everyone i'm not saying that a person who

the family like having a family is is a good thing but it's not like a prerequisite for life that some people are happy on their own and that's that's completely fine of course uh but i think that if you can then i think at some age it's probably kind of like it's nice and it puts you sets you on some kind of track like maybe if you're like 35 maybe you should think about maybe settling down i mean as opposed to maybe actually like i can't say anything because like everyone has makes their own choices and decisions i think i want to have a family at some point i definitely have a family too that's actually my wife and i were we're gonna move closer to our families soon and we just feel like a need

to be closer to like our parents that's pretty nice yeah being closest yeah not that we're that far but like yeah that's interesting all right and that was getting emotional in tales from the emotional anything whatever you ask right we got it um let's see so like no this is all right this is a bitcoin podcast let's tie bitcoin into it like that's why i'm into bitcoin is thinking about future generations and actually the concept of family and generational thinking and global thinking is something i'm very fascinated about one concept in particular that fascinates the shit out of me that i think we should adopt as a society is the uh the iroquois nation concept of a seven generation thinking so like thinking seven generations ahead thinking about the people

your offspring and ancestors that don't even exist yet and they can't even call them ancestors their predecessors that don't even exist and so that's what bitcoin has helped me to like i don't want to get cheesy here but like i do think about like all right i want to put some bitcoin in time lock contracts that like my ancestors my predecessors can access at some point in the future that's that's a really cool idea and like thinking seven generations ahead and like lowering time preference and thinking about that exactly to make sure that bitcoin has me thinking about like all right i can fucking potentially leave like a tenth of a bitcoin here for somebody 100 years from now yeah so your family like gets

by you know yeah exactly and because i probably would have never thought about doing like fucking burying cash in the backyard for somebody who lived on my land like thousands of years ago that's very impractical right yeah i'm gonna tell you teach how you change your mental model and how you think about these things and and maybe it does incentivize like a better more efficient more happy humanity you know there's a i feel like there's a cultural paradigm shift that's going on like and you start doing do i really want to buy some material good do i need a car do i need this maybe i should just like save this for the future right yeah for sure i'm serious it's been incredible what are we going to next we have let me see what we have

on the list uh we already talked about bitcoin is just software have we touched on people don't we've touched on people don't understand money enough yep uh bitcoin appeals to everybody i think this is this is i think this is something that i think this is the last topic yeah over so bitcoin appeals everybody that's like people try to portray this vision of bitcoin as a strictly libertarian libertarian conservative conservative right far right oh god technology how does it appeal to everybody spare me uh unfortunately i can't spare you i'm not talking to you i'm talking to the archetype um so i think it's lack lack of education and there's always going to be people who are ignorant and who are always going to be trying to be vocal uh despite the fact

that they lack the necessary basic knowledge to uh know better and uh i think that if we so bitcoin is is a beautiful thing because you can it has the ability to appeal to have a universal appeal it has the ability to uh make sense and and be um be seen as something positive by very different type of people very different type of people so i really think that it doesn't matter if you're a conservative progressive republican democrat rich or poor and we've already talked about the rich and poor and how they are both able to benefit it doesn't matter where you stand on the hierarchy uh some will say that bitcoin is ideological it is uh it is like austrian econ is libertarian and perhaps but it is ideological

it's a it's a grassroots movement and like grassroots movements always need some kind of ideology especially in the beginning until it just becomes like like sooner or later bitcoin is going to become oh so what bitcoin yeah we all use it now what like you know it's now it's so exciting because like we are at the forefront of this we are at the very uh the uh at the stem of this cultural uh shift but soon i mean soon within the next decade within the next century i think bitcoin is going to be an everyday thing like it's yeah i use money i use bitcoin duh but so i don't think that like we should really think that the bitcoin is like purely libertarian purely this purely that it's not it it is it's on board with just like making the world fairer better more

efficient and just you know progressing the world further and that's where we're supposed to be going i think uh right maybe i'm getting something wrong but i'm pretty sure i'm not so the chances are that when you are like it's i i had this one post where i talked about how it's important to talk the way you talk about uh bitcoin and you should always think like when you're trying to when you're talking to a no-coiner think how you're approaching it how you're approaching what their understanding exactly what they care what their care what they care about yes because bitcoin has the ability to uh cater to all kinds of different needs and i'm not trying to be like deceiving here or snake oil yeah you're not trying to be like i'm gonna get you by this

by talking about this no i'm just saying that bitcoin is so broad so broad and has the potential to impact the world in a positive way in so many different ways that different people care about those different things so and you should talk about those things that they care about because like people want to listen to what the things that they that matter to them and chances are that the person that you are talking to the no coin not the no coiner but even the person who just doesn't care or doesn't know he they're not and they're not passionate about any of these ideas like they're not libertarian they're not austrian econ uh head or like they don't care they're just uh they're just essentially misinformed and intentionally or or unintentionally

misinformed about a lot of like the economic processes and topics that relate to bitcoin and therefore you should be extremely careful with your choice of words sometimes i mean once again like as i said like bitcoin is still going to still going to win it doesn't matter but again going to accelerate it probably yes and going and going back to the concept doesn't matter where they going back to the concept of decreasing the amount of touches needed to yeah exactly we're just optimizing that acceleration you know exactly so so being able to to diagnose how somebody may come to understand it in a different way than another person may is is important to decreasing the amount of touches yeah but it's just like it's just so sad when you hear like all

these like either mass media or like these even people who you would think you should know better they're like this is evil this is this is doing this this is doing that like no it's not you know bitcoin has the ability to like fix all these not fix but like at least ameliorate the state in which a lot of uh the things we care about and most people care about are in this day and time like crony capitalism like we like everyone's like oh yeah this that's one thing i agree uh if i'm going to give alexandria ocasio-cortez some props on like i think she's doing a good job of calling out corruption and the crony capitalist sort of uh mentality that she's doing a great job in washington and she's doing a great job at accelerating hybrid bitcoinization props to her

Yes, with her socialist tendencies, but I will give her props earnestly saying she is doing a good job of calling out the convoluted incentives that exist, particularly with lobbying in D.C. Of course, that's true, but the way to approach it is probably not the most optimal way. No, her prescription for fixing that problem is terrible. We already talked about human nature and how you can't just like, good, bad, but no. I have hope that we can get through to the Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's of the world. We can say, hey, we are diagnosing the problem the same way you are. I mean, isn't that what we're trying to do right now? Yeah, yeah.

It's like your prescription is not what we would agree with. Maybe you should see our side. So that's another thing I've been writing about in the band. A lot of the perceived framing of the debate is around fiscal policy. It should be more monetary. It should be more monetary. And that's the other thing about the mainstream. mainstream divides everybody and literally frames the argument in a way where people only think

about it in this siloed structure where it's literally you're either being taxed enough or you're not being taxed enough that's the the extent of the discourse on a national level in the mainstream that that this debate is like nobody talks about monetary policy nobody talks about the monetary aspects of it and that i would agree that's intentional that's intentional like going back to like is there a conspiracy like i would agree it isn't i would argue it is intentional because people don't want to highlight that like hey we're gonna divide everybody and make them think that here here's the problem it's we're not being taxed enough or being taxed too much where it may be hey your money's fucked at its core and until

you figure that out you're not gonna be able to fix anything uh that you're arguing about on this silo debate you know definitely yeah no you're raising a very important point i hope that they will hear us one day but if they try to they block their ears they will be so loud that they will still right your fingers and your ears just scream like oh no this is all the manners because it's just natural it's like humans want to preserve their wealth and it's fine you shouldn't take it away from them why are you taking it away from them leave them alone they worked hard they worked hard they gave greater value what do you want from them let them live peace uh so yeah uh i think it has the ability to appeal to these people who are concerned with

crony capitalism because that is an issue to some extent to some yeah of course and it has the ability to appeal to to like basically improve the inequality genie coefficient uh which has jumped highly since very which jumps massively since 2008 so this is one thing like a 2008 is like an econ major and i'm actually interested to hear your thoughts on this like as soon as that happened i was like in college like and working at a managed futures fund sort of under like coming to understand monetary policy and and the way central banks would manipulate the mechanisms of money creation and contraction blah blah blah blah blah like when the fed came out like with tarp and qe1 and qe2 and qe3 like if you wanted to sort of diagnose whether or not

your policies are not diagnosed if you wanted to be able to measure whether or not your policies were being effective enough i argued that you should not necessarily target guinea guinea coefficient and velocity but you should look at those metrics in particular like hey if your guinea's rising and the velocity of money is crashing at the same time like maybe qe is not as effective as he thought it would be and nobody looked at those two metrics in particular but i did like throughout so and that's what like drove me away from finance as well was like all right like they're not even targeting the metrics at which like would prove that their policies are effective like they're not even following those like a guinea efficient guinea coefficient excuse

me sort of showing that that the wealth inequality is decreasing or increasing that's something you probably want to look at if you're if you're trying to sustain the or fix the economy and then velocity of money in particular if you're going to print money and attempt to have it the flow through the economy you would expect the velocity to rise at least a certain percent and what you found is that it fell precipitously so uh the sort of solution to the problem proved to not solve the problem at all it's just pushing the problem further out right yeah that's all do you agree with that like am i like and this is something like i've only had like conversations with people like side conversations and stuff like it but is that like am i i mean i think it

Am I rational, like, believing that you should have looked at those metrics and, like, they're never brought up? Yeah, no, for sure. I think so. Like, I mean, it's a fact that, like, since the inception of the monetary system that we live in today, the inequality in the world has precipitously increased. Like, you know, before we had all this, like, central planning type of policies that... yeah so should we take a step back here and define guinea coefficient and velocity of money for the freaks who may not be as economically sure let's try to do that so guinea coefficient tries to measure the distribution distribution of money the the the wedge between the rich and the poor

i believe a guinea index above 45 means your uh you have a lot of inequality in your your economy and then velocity of money which i think is actually maybe more important as tries to measure the rate at which money is flowing through the economy from the money creation spigot. So you start from creating money at the Fed to getting it to the banks to lending out to a business to hiring employees who get paid and then spend that money in the economy.

And you try to measure how fast the money is going from money creation to that food bagger spending that money at McDonald's or whatever. and what you found post 2008 post qe post qe one two three twist blah blah blah it's like velocity completely collapsed guinea index exploded so like the the solution to the problem just exacerbated the problem it seemed in my in my opinion i i tend to agree yeah for sure so and that was talking economics and tales from the crypt i don't i don't brush off those economic skills every every i mean they are prerequisite for the bitcoin class right

so yeah so i think that there's many many different ways that bitcoin appeals to like just the fact that it's a robust undilutable savings vehicle that's everyone needs that the middle class lower class upper class especially the middle and the lower class everyone needs that and it's just like to conclude it has the ability to ability to level the financial playing field open up uh opportunities just like internet allowed people in very remote places to have access to all the different kinds of information now these people are going to have access to uh value anywhere to value yeah exactly sending value to creating value to traveling with it exactly yeah and why like i know this is kind of like a everyone has already talked about it but

like the people who don't have access to an banking bank account like they are just cut off from a lot of opportunities a lot of uh very relevant uh processes in our society and that is fundamentally unfair that shouldn't because they not only unfair it's also inefficient because these people are capable it's unfair to the world world as well right they are these people are able to specialize in something if you want as much people working on as many problems as possible yeah exactly to figure out like to speed up the pace at which we make our society perfect which will never happen but on the road to perfection or towards perfection at least like you want as many minds trying to solve as many problems as possible and yeah it's like international

it's international trade it's all about comparative advantage rather than absolute advantage and how even if you are even if the united states is better at producing literally anything in the world literally anything than any other country the fact that uh even if they have that absolute advantage the fact that united states is actually better at producing um i don't know what is the united states good at producing tech companies yeah the fact that they are even better at producing tech companies makes enables other countries that are worse than uh that are worse at uh producing any kind of uh any kind of product than america as a whole they are still because they have the comparative advantage because they are still while america is doing the the tech

production these guys are going to be doing something else which are they're worse than america at that but because america is so has so many resources allocated to doing something that they're the best at like that is the thing that they specialize best in let's say tech production of technology everyone else those other guys can be making money and creating value and making the more the world more efficient by having the comparative advantage in doing whatever else that america is still the best at but not as good as as in technology it's so rising to everyone can do something everyone can specialize in something and we can if you give them access to uh transacting and having an account with bitcoin then you don't need to have an account but using bitcoin then

the world can become once again a lot more efficient a lot more time will be saved a lot more a lot more waste is going to be eliminated yeah this is a very optimistic episode we needed this one especially in the depths of this bear market we're two and a half hours in yeah yeah 2 30 on the dot this year has been incredible do we have a parting note for the freaks have we hit all the notes like what what do we have to riff on here i could go another half hour if you need to like if if we want i think i think we this will be plenty of time for your audience to listen to hey a lot of people listen to one and a half speed so you think it's going to be three hours turns out to be an hour 15 you know like yeah true true i do that myself yeah i'm guilty of that

um i think that my parting note would be that in a world dominated by centralized mainstream media and social networks pr is increasingly important public relations and bitcoin does not and hopefully we'll never have one pr team so instead every single person who cares about bitcoin who considers themselves a bitcoiner knowingly or unknowingly is a bitcoin PR agent and you are part of this movement and you can

accelerate by educating other people and explaining to them why it is not as clear it is not as black or white as people say it is it's actually more I would definitely say that it's more white than black in terms of like it's more positive

like it's infinitely more positive impact it will have on the world it has the potential to i tend to agree and you need to explain to people and you need to explain it like you can't do it once you can't just sit down and do it once you need to do it like you know every every other time you need to bring it up and explain why or give them some kind of accessible resource and i think that this is going to happen naturally no and i completely a hundred percent a thousand percent ten thousand percent agree uh and this is honestly

why this podcast exists and the bent exists i i really have so much respect for you for having the tenacity to wake up every single morning and send out that uh newsletter which everyone should subscribe to marty's bent uh and providing like the core information and spreading the knowledge in the news about the the space it's it's very very valuable to a lot of us and i'm sure i'm one of the many many thousands of people who take take great uh advantage of that resource well thank you for saying that i hope it's not getting too repetitive that's what i worry about these days is it getting a little too repetitive bear markets not a lot to write before but uh if i am going to speak from any sort of semblance of giving advice it's just like

the mentality i adopted was like if not me then who like it's yeah i love that if not nobody except for us like you know if not me then who and like for any of you freaks listening out there like you should adopt that mentality too one day my watch will be over and somebody will have to pick up the torch and start talking like i cannot do this forever yeah i would like to i hope i can do it for as long as possible yeah you know hyper bitcoin as the world i assure you all of you i would i would argue that a lot of people should just start internally looking into themselves like if not me then who and and start applying what you think should exist into the world start bringing it into the world and i would argue like marty's been this podcast though not perfect and they just

prove like hey any joe schmo can put their voice out there and people will not necessarily like listen and and agree but consider it and say all right maybe maybe i'll think about this today or something like that absolutely and also shout out to uh to matt odell i think that was a great initiative on your guys side to launch the rabbit hole recap because although the individual episodes with people uh in the space are incredibly interesting but like you it's sometimes hard to be on top of all the news and you guys are able to put that into an accessible form that is constant and that is weekly which is great and huge shout out to matt that does most of the legwork and putting together the topics that we talk about uh and sort of the the theme of each

episode and that's something thank you for saying that and that's something like i realized they and that was again this whole process has been natural as people were like hey we want like weekly updates i'm not going to sit there and like read weekly updates of people and luckily i have matt right in the neighborhood and we have good rapport and it just makes sense and i'm happy that you freaks are liking it um and so is matt matt's like fucking incredible like the fact that i was able to nag him as a co-host is fucking incredible he's a wealth of knowledge and very happy to have him on team tftc thank you matt we miss you here we do he's on his way back i think i think he's in the air right now cool um it's been a great episode man i'm fucking i'm like

debating in my mind right now do i post this right away or do i have the patience to wait till tuesday i mean yeah the engagement is higher on the i mean the engagement will happen no matter what the engagement happens no matter what like just over time people find it like especially if you're subscribed like eventually you'll get to it i have put out a lot of content i'm gonna wait till tuesday i think i think we can pump this yeah we can start teasing people over the weekend i think that's what we'll do so you already give your parting note this year this has been a pleasure man it's been a great conversation it's been likewise an absolute pleasure to talk to you i was looking forward to this when you first invited me i thought that like

i have stuff to say that and i want to say it exactly here no no nowhere else like i haven't like i'm going to i have a lot of articles that are not out yet but do consist of many of the ideas that i have uh uh no that i've uh talked about today but this is basically like a preview preview of a lot of those ideas which i am very proud to present exactly here and exactly on your on your show well i'm flattered that i'm flattered that's all i'll say i'm flattered i love you monsieur the uh the mama dove bloodline is strong you mean that into existence right It is very strong. Yeah, so for you freaks that don't know or aren't following Nasir on Twitter,

follow him at Nasir, M-I-S-I-R, underscore, Mamadov, M-A-H-M-U-D-O-V. Excuse me. Again, M-I-S-I-R, underscore, M-A-H-M-U-D-O-V on Twitter. Kid's only in college. How old are you, if you don't mind me asking? 21. You're 21. You're only 21.

Yeah. Jesus Christ. this gives me hope like this gives me hope am I the youngest youngest yes you are up to this point

I'm sure I'm sure there'll be younger ones maybe Yasin I think Yasin is might be a year older than you but yeah thanks for coming on bro

thank you thank you for the invite it was amazing it was incredible peace and love freaks bye