TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast - Tales from the Crypt #93: Rodolfo Novak

Episode Date: August 27, 2019

Join Marty and Matt as they sit down with Rodolfo Novak to discuss Coinkite, how Rodolfo approaches making products for Bitcoiners, a little Bitcoin history, Ham Radios, airplanes, and much more. Check out Coinkite: https://coinkite.com/ (Use the promo code "TFTC" for 5% OFF!) Follow Rodolfo on Twitter: https://twitter.com/nvk Follow Matt on Twitter: https://twitter.com/matt_odell Follow Marty on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MartyBent Shoutout to our sponsors: Cash App. Head over to the App Store or Google Play Store, download cash.app and start #stackingsats today. Use the promo code: "stackingsats" to receive $5 and contribute $5 to OWLS Lacrosse you download the app. Casa. Use promo code “TFTC” to get up to $250 off your Casa membership … or hit their team up [e-mail] for a free demo, or to put them to the test with your hardest OpSec questions! Up your security game. Head over to https://keys.casa/ today.

What is up, freaks? It's your boy Marty here to introduce you to this week's episode. Matt O'Dell and I sat down with Rodolfo Novak from CoinKite and had an incredible conversation while we were at the BitBlockBoom conference. Rodolfo is an incredible person who I was very pumped to meet for the first time while we were at that conference. An incredible conversation, far-ranging. Talked about the history of CoinKite, the iterations it's gone through, ham radios and airplanes. It was a fun one. this week's episode is brought to you by the cash app you freaks already know all about them and if you don't here's some info you know the cash app they're they're helping you stack sats they're helping you save money at merchants and they do this in a really cool way so you can buy and sell bitcoin on the cash app on top of that you can withdraw your coins to a personal wallet not your

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walk you through all that uh so again shout out to casa use the promo code tftc or let them know that we sent you at membership at team.casa and you're going to get up to 250 off your casa membership i hope you guys enjoyed this episode i know matt and i had uh an incredible time sitting down with rodolfo what a legend do we need a tiktok no we do not need a tiktok are we getting a twitch we definitely need a twitch though uh i haven't gamed in a while are you i i can't play games man you know i suck it even solitary i would be down for twitch just to shoot the shit with the uh with the streamers or not the streamers the people watching the stream we need to get a young gun otherwise otherwise we're screwed we're not young guns anymore no we're old timers in terms

of video games andrew chow is on uh he's doing twitch now like to he's doing a cold review or whatever on on twitch for really coin core yeah i don't know how long that's gonna last but that's actually a good medium to do it by because what john newberry is doing it in uh irc correct yes uh for you freaks out there we just hit record because we're having a fun conversation matt odell and i are in dallas sitting down with rodolfo novak from cold card uh quink or what is the overarching company quinkite quinkite quinkite that's right yeah that's the master umbrella corporation yes quinkite is the master umbrella corporation uh created open dime uh which is great for nature's pocket cold card which is great for your cold storage and uh we've been

having a fun time here in dallas we shut down the bar last night how are you feeling um i hope i will speed up my brain again uh the southern uh um folks here are very nice everybody was very kind and we were fed and given a lot of booze i didn't wind up eating last night yeah you didn't eat that much you like came over and you you only ate because rodolfo ordered more meat thank you for ordering more meat oh man i i was like still like hungry i'm still i still haven't eaten i'm starving i'm ready for lunch intermittent fasting it's a it's a lifestyle um yeah so we just hit record we're rolling into this this is tales from the crypt i guess we should get serious here uh rodolfo how did you come to find bitcoin you're creating all this dope hardware you're contributing

to the space uh both with hardware and with memeware um how did you find bitcoin what drew you towards it and yeah let's start there yeah i mean i was watching congressional hearings and i heard about bitcoin and uh no i'm kidding um yeah i i uh i think was peter uh bumping no in 2010 the slash dot article which i hardly i really regret not saying something very stupid on the comments because they closed down that thread like they took a while for them to close that thread but um yeah it was interesting thing kind of did not really think was probably going to work just because of the scale that you need to get to for that thing to work and uh but to me the main moment was when i made a first transaction i was like fuck like when was that what were you

doing uh no it was just sending between like me and peter like we bought some and we were just sending around and we're like like seriously like holy shit like i can literally send money from my computer and the money is in the computer the files are in the computer yeah like it's like it's in the computer you know for kids that can't read good right but it's like it it's a paradigm shift i mean like never before the money was in the computer i mean it was in the bank balance sheets and all that stuff or or it was the gold on your desk and then every time you wanted to send money on through the computer somebody was clearing that or sort of being a middleman on that like was literally impossible to send money digitally but with bitcoin it's

like a digital bearer asset it's the first like actual digital bearer asset we've ever had so when i saw the value there like it's just i couldn't stop thinking about this stuff what were you doing before um i i at that time i think i was working in the startup where we're making a time series data search engine and and I had some other businesses going on who were making some iPhone apps on the side and I'm just always doing a bunch of stuff and so you found Bitcoin did you drop everything right away or to take you some time to dive in no it was like I kind of carried that on the side and And then we built a btclook.com.

By the way, the block data, all the block data was about, like, I think four or eight gigabytes at a time. So we built this, like, very cool block explorer that had, like, bubbles and stuff. And, like, it was, like, the whole block data was in RAM. So, like, it was Redis on a single computer. You know, and you could transverse the whole thing. was pretty awesome we closed that project once we couldn't fit in like affordable ram uh server uh that was uh so we built that to sort of try to understand bitcoin right like the best way to understand bitcoin is to build a block explorer what do you learn when you're building a block

explorer um you start just understanding the the concept of like so close you try to understand like the the concept of like you know the utxos and sort of like how this whole thing actually works um and then we're like okay this is cool um let's uh it's money so let's make payment terminals and uh that was a little bit early and uh so in 20 2013 we launched the bitcoin payment terminals through coin kite through coin kite exactly and we made the the the first bitcoin debit cards uh i actually have one here and you had like there was a wallet service there too right yeah so have you guys seen this like there was not a while so we made the the debit machines but we couldn't trust really the wallets that were around like blockchain.info was garbage and

why is the shit coin on the back so back in the day like there was no real alternative to doing like a faster settlement unless you accept a zero-conf, right? There was no sort of solution yet and my liability was real. So I actually thought that Litecoin was a fairly reasonable solution for faster confirmations for sort of like retail. So you could use, you know, Bitcoin to actually do real settlements, but you could use like Litecoin for little stuff. yeah um so then uh yeah so then we we couldn't trust the wallet so we built coin kite.com

as an actual wallet and and then we built the multi-sig stuff and and then all that stuff that came after that what i thought was interesting about the coin kite wallet was wasn't the the business model it was a percentage fee right you charged yeah so when we launched we were charging i think three percent remaking the credit card exactly no but like you know that's like how like silly my understandings of the economics of a company like that were right like i mean once you kind of get into it you understand the kind of cost that a payment sort of process or manager like that it's very expensive to maintain money safe and to actually help people do this stuff uh and you know users

don't like to pay for anything so but surprisingly enough we got a lot of users paying us three percent for like a little while and then we kept on dropping the fee right like every month we would drop the fee to see if we get more users and we would so in that we ended up changing the complete business model from like percentage to then like just monthly fees kind of thing and and like standard bank right like you pay them to keep your money safe um and we had the multi-sig stuff which makes it harder for us to take our percentage to because they could just not give us and so it's interesting like you're learning about the economics of these systems on the way so were you driven i mean you were talking about like it's money in the computer earlier but like

Were you fascinated by money before Bitcoin? Economics? Or did you sort of come to understand economics after? No, I came from the tech side. I learned economics later. The arts degree did not give me a very good economic education. So you came in line with the story of CoinKai, like the iterations with the card.

So how did that lead to Open Dime? like what what did you do hardware from so we we got to a point that we were holding like a lot of bitcoin like a lot and we were very quiet in those days like in social media and stuff because you know we were kind of scared of like publicizing too much security concerns right and uh we sort of like decided to to close it i'm like this is not what i want to do in my life i don't want to hold people's bags it's a pain in the ass and uh we we closed it down dispersed all the funds within like three four weeks um and then i'm like okay uh let's just go back to hardware just do hardware because we had built hsms to run coin kite for the actual

terminal thing too right yes we built the terminals too we essentially every time we sort of like come up with something we build the thing to support it um so yeah so so i wanted to build the complete opposite of coin kite.com like the literal opposite and open dime is the ultimate point solution as opposed to you know a connected solution right um so it took us a little while we played with like metal bars we played with like aluminum folding things and uh paper and all kinds stuff and like but we we couldn't like until sort of um we sorted out that you know no like the user doesn't know the private key and we need a safe way of doing that and we also need to appease all the cypherpunks who are going to say that we know the private key so we figure out hey you know

let's get the user to initiate the device give some entropy from themselves into the device and And then we can prove that we don't know the private key, and the user can prove that he doesn't know the private key, and the receiver can verify all that too. And that's sort of like, that's how Open DIME happened. Let's unpack this a little bit, because I think it's pretty cool how you do the Open DIME entropy. So the idea is that you basically drag a file onto the Open DIME, and then that's used as the entropy, like a user-provided file, right?

So it's just random data. It's just random data. But because, you know, in that sort of mindset of doing the complete opposite of what we were doing before, we never want to support an app, a website, or like API ever again. We just don't want to build apps, period. So OpenDyme was birthed out of laziness almost? Pretty much. Like all good things, right?

You shouldn't say laziness. I think it's interesting. fair because like coin kite you guys have basically you went through the the same process that almost everyone who enters bitcoin goes through right which is like oh this is cool like merchants should use this this is going to be like a merchant processing thing oh no let's the business model here is to to hold people's bitcoin for them right and then you realize there's not really much money to be made there's a fucking headache and then you come all the way full circle to user controls their own keys we just make the hardware for them and we don't have to touch any

of that exactly bitcoin hates on middlemen so trying to be a middleman in bitcoin you're gonna have to pay it somehow right uh you're gonna pay through security concerns and then there's all the costs around that it's very tricky and uh everybody eventually finds that out unless you're an institution right so if we're talking about institutional uh holdings for bitcoin now you want to defer the liability to somebody else right because you need to cover your ass that's what like investment funds whatever it will do they will find some other company to hold the bag and put insurance on it so that they can tell their board look you know it's we check the boxes exactly and obviously obviously it's complete opposite of of what

you're pushing with the hardware where users take control their own keys and what's fascinating to me about the hardware that you produce is just how transparent and open it is and that's actually a topic that we talk about a lot on rabbit hole recap is the fickleness of hardware wallets in particular and you can give advice on a hardware wallet one day and then six months later it's bad advice and so how does that factor into what you guys are building so i mean so we closed down coin kite we needed something for ourselves right and and i was fairly unsatisfied i think it's the best most polite way to put it about the current available solutions because you know we we do have a background in hardware so we sort of understood like

what was missing and what we wanted to do so we can't we made it so I made cold-card which sort of sits it solves a bit of the problem like so security is always a set of trade-offs right and hardware you also have the trade-off in terms of being able to manufacture it it's not just come up with some idea for an app and make it right you also need to find the economics to manufacture it you need to make sure the parts that you want are available to you um and and so it gets it's like it's fairly tricky right it's like a puzzle you have to put together yeah so you know there was one solution that sort of like was open source the fairly old one and uh but but you know there's no physical security whatsoever

on it uh and and i noticed the shift in their marketing which used to be secure to now it's sort of like oh there's no such thing as security we're talking about the treasure right i i you know i'm not gonna name competitors everybody knows which wallets are what um and then the other one it's like you know those guys are actually pros um you know maybe their software is not like what people love but you know the actual hardware is fairly safe uh it's fairly good and and it's it's a very old way of doing security right you have a secure element and you put all the stuff in it but the problem is it needs to be closed source because those vendors are not going to let you open source yes so let's uh expound upon the secure enclave like what is

it exactly how does it work so device imagine like this right so you have a standard mcu like one of them and this mcu was just designed to sort of like you know work on your toaster you know work your microwave you know do things like that i mean nowadays we're sort of starting to care about security in these things but you know this these chips were not designed to do any security right so you can peel it very easily you can throw radio at it and make it do things that it's not supposed to, which is one of the attacks. You can read its power to read its calculations. So the thing essentially is just sort of like

not designed to keep anything safe. And then a secure enclave or secure element, what it does is it has, say, you have layers, actual physical layers on it that prevent you from doing attacks of peeling very easily. anything is doable but the cost to attack that is substantially higher and you can destroy it in the process too so you protect the power reading so you can't so it doesn't leak memory uh sorry it doesn't leak uh any calculations through the power uh you have like monotonic

counters uh these are essentially one-way counters they're verifiable and it's pretty cool because for example when you when you do your math for pin attempts for example right like you can't cheat that because it's inside the monotonic counter um and that's how you keep the data safe um and then you will um you prevent you from from from doing the radio stuff on it um not everything but some of it point is it's designed to do this stuff now the problem is they also have closed source uh for simple crypto accelerators right that means you don't have to actually like use a function like a cold function to say do a cryptographic calculation you use the actual hardware that already has the curve in it and you'll do for you

right I don't believe any have any secure element at the moment have a Bitcoin curve on them but you can use those for other kinds of encryptions that you do in a device like that but the problem is when you do Bitcoin you really want the code that does Bitcoin calculations to be open right other parts of it not as important so essentially in Bitcoin we were presented with two these two options right the fully closed the fully open they both extreme sets of trade-offs right so we decided to sort of build something in the middle what we did was we used a general-purpose MCU it's not designed

for security even though ours has a firewall on it I wouldn't trust if my life to do to do the open sort of calculations that we need right and then we use a very dumb but very secure secure element just to seek to keep seed secure uh it also comes with a trng it's a true ramden number uh generator that's verified by say nist kind of thing uh so you get those features for free and we don't use any of its crypto to do bitcoin stuff so it's separated exactly it's separate however uh we did convince the manufacturer to let us put the spec out of that chip and the firmware that we load on that chip is also open source okay and there is by the way there is no such thing as open source chips

that's a bs marketing uh essentially all the chips you buy are closed source uh it's just that you can show that the code you're running on those chips is open source um there is a few projects out there trying to do open source micros and stuff but in my opinion is hopeless be just the patent stuff patenting hardware is a real thing right like software people get more away with stuff but good luck trying to to break those patents or to do stuff around it and he also costs right to make a micro would cost you know depending on like something simple that's not even secure you know cost just you know ten million dollars and then what you're still gonna

end up with something that all this same people use so now you don't have any diversity you know it's a problem yeah it's no it's a fascinating problem one that specifically speaking of hardware wallets and leaking data and their security in particular it's do you think it's close to being solved at all or will ever be solved or no you'll never be solved because security is always going to be a set of trade-offs um and i think we can still improve the ux on like bitcoin security substantially um but uh and you know it's possible that some of these manufacturers eventually do uh chips that can do a little bit better for bitcoin for our needs

um i mean multisig is interesting here right because you can combine hardware that takes different trade-offs, and you kind of cover your ass in all the different, in most of the different threat vectors, right? Yeah, so multi-sig is tricky. I think the issue, like one of the main issues with Bitcoin security is that most people screw themselves out of their money than getting hacked. so every time you increase complexity on something that like you know sort of your last resort thing or whatever it gets very it's very dangerous like you can you can lose your money because

you don't have the redeem script because multi-sig now it's essentially i guess the simplest way you could say is it's kind of like it's not bitcoin anymore it's like you're creating extra complexity on the bitcoin signing of that and then you're just telling the network that you signed the transaction right and it's valid but the scripts for the multi-sig setup are very uh uh very custom i mean they're made by the people who made the wallet right and those there's no standards on that i mean there's some but it's not like something that you know so people can screw themselves that way uh so every time you're making your multi-sig setup make sure you also have a backup of your redeem script otherwise you're screwed it's very

good advice and now imagine like you die right and then your family has you know this box under you know some mountain mountain you know they take it out it's like you know my crazy cuckoo you know husband left me this box with like these devices that all look ridiculous what are all these calculators exactly right and like how do i redeem this stuff or like how do i take the money out uh and then you're gonna have to use a consultant that might rob you you know like it gets very tricky so simplicity goes a long way i think that you should you should only increase the complexity of your setup as you learn enough to do it right so like go as far as you personally can and feel comfortable and then slowly increase that

right it's not just like a smart person goes on some podcast or whatever and sort of like says oh dude you know like there's all these problems you know maybe you should you know use it this way or that way um that's great but that person has extreme understanding of the trade-offs and the setup yeah exactly it's uh that's what i think that's why i love having matt odell as a co-host here because he helps handhold me through this stuff he's uh you're definitely more adept at at setting this stuff up than i am and but it is like again like going back to the fact of trying to educate people about this stuff it is hard it's like it's super intimidating it is very intimidating yeah i i get i get anxious almost yeah no it's that this stuff is not easy like i

mean and you know like it's there's a reason why you know ethereum devs build javascript crap you know what i mean because like that's easy you know like building hardware stuff and like actually working through these problems it's not easy so what's what's the brainstorming of coming up with these solutions like are you like whiteboarding it or you're just like deep in thought in the woods you know we have our uh scrum morning meetings you know no no we normally just sort of like you know uh we either meet like downtown or like in toronto or like because we both work from home and uh we normally just skype or whatever and uh you know we chat about things we want to make we have like piles and piles of ideas and we have like we write them down like in

those documents we just keep on listing listing them and like sometimes we sort of investigate them slightly more like further to see if they're like economically viable because it'll be harder like you you have to think like okay how much is this gonna cost how much it's gonna cost to make and then like what are the hidden costs in this you know shipping of that and all that all that stuff um but oftentimes we'll actually make the stuff at least one offs kind of thing so like i have like boxes in my basement of like crap we played with or tried to do so like how many how many iterations it depends i mean like open dime like we had a lot of iterations it's kind of funny but the first version of the open dime was actually something that more resembles the cold card

really yeah we had a screen on it we had a qr camera on it uh it was going to be sort of this more harder wallet thing but then we sort of gave up that for a while and then sort of became what it is um yeah i i mean it's uh you go through a lot of iterations uh until you sort of sort out especially for the manufacturing and when you have epiphanies about like what's going to work and what's not like how does that happen is it happen through use or are you like somewhere random and you're like ah this is what i need to do yeah it's oftentimes it's really solve your own problems it's like god damn it i can't do this okay can we make this so i mean i think that the cold card is the best wallet on the market right now i think it was an

absolute game changer it was a huge step improvement um from like the existing hardware wallets um but nothing's perfect right so i as the creator of the cold card wallet what do you think are the major weaknesses that it has right now so there is there is a known attack factor that security researcher exploited we wrote a blog post about it in the first first version we improved the so we made it much harder for him to to get to the secure element bus so essentially what he could do is you could you could you could try to rum dump the MCU and then unencrypt some stuff and then take the pairing secret that you need to talk to the

secure element and then you can disorder the secure element out put it in a little rig that reads those but you could break it in the process of doing that too and then once you do that you can try to brute force the pin but now we have we have a better bus there so we can't attach wires to it and we also cover now the secure element of epoxy on this version okay so the thing is there is even with a secure element like like the ultimate sort of secure element right there is still like the time is ticking if somebody has physical control of it right so I'd say like you know one week it's a it's pretty doable

with most secure elements you can send to the right facility they'll peel it they'll do whatever, you know, done. Now, with the next version of CodeCard, we're upgrading the secure element to the next version of it. We plan on storing the stuff inside the SC encrypted as well because there's going to be more room. So even if you dump that, you're not going to be able to know what's inside.

yeah so like essentially like the idea with security is always security in depth right like so you keep on making the attacker spend more money right so we make the money bags that's what the bag that the cold card comes in you know it costs for them to make a fake bag right and then we add the the serial numbers so the serial number is also in the bag and inside the secure element so they can't just use any bag right and then we use the clear cases and the the case you can actually inspect the device and then the case is also sealed so you'd have to break the case to change something inside and then on top of that we do the the you have the two words in between the first part of the pin and second part of the pin so somebody did manage to do a fairly

advanced attack to replace to try to fish your pin out it wouldn't even have to be that advanced right they could just switch the device exactly right but they'd have to make it one that would look fairly similar right and and then the retrieval of that information is hard too you'd have to have radio on it or something um but then you know you stop because the pin is going to show you the words it's not there this is fairly old anti-phishing tactic right like remember like some banks used to actually put a picture that you have to recognize before you put your password and stuff so mine was an apple yep and then you can load your own firmware uh And you blast it, you sign it with your pin.

So, you know, keep on increasing the cost and making the competition sweat is fun too. Yeah, I know that. And then there's also like weird ways through which your privacy and security can be compromised. And like the original cold card, right? It was like the buttons, like you could see if you're putting your pin in

and like the buttons were wearing down, you'd be able to sort of be like, all right, these four numbers are part of the pin and some combination of this. And that's like something that maybe most people don't think about, but it's like there's small things like that factor into this it's you know there's there's no perfect solution right uh and at the end of the day um somebody can sort of still put a gun

to your head and say give me right give it to me exactly over uh and that's when you use your brick me pin and you say i don't have it anymore shoot me i went boating last week dude you'd call me in a bad time uh that's and this is a question i have like i don't like this is a well-known fact on this show i don't like moving bitcoin at all um that's the best sort of solution for it right it's just don't move it right but so what would you recommend like as you're putting out newer iterations of the cold card and newer versions uh do you recommend people move their storage to yeah stuff so so but the way we do it is you don't have to move the coins right you just you just move the seed yeah we actually preferably use the encrypted backup solution and then you know

restore you just wipe your sd card exactly wipe your current device exactly no you put your tin foil hat properly your tin foil outfit tin foil underwear you know you get in your faraday cage if your faraday tent you know you can buy those and uh you know you you transfer the seed from one to the other and then you know you take your old cold car to the range and you show a good time so you do recommend as new called cards come out people port their seats to the new one yeah like and the thing is i i find that like around the hundred dollar price point right uh it's fairly like reasonable for you to to to sort of upgrade to to the newest and greatest because you know you're trying to hold like substantial money uh and you know like just look at your

banking fees i mean like you know like how much a bank takes from you to do this stuff and then you have this little device that costs 100 bucks that you have your wealth on you know like it's like yeah upgrade it you know and also by buying stuff you make us sort of validate and sort of uh uh put the time and the money to keep on improving it right it's like because we're not charging a membership right so if you want upgrades it's like buy the newer stuff so we can keep on making the upgrades right or even the firmware stuff um yeah yeah it's good it makes makes sense but it is like i mean i have eight cold cards right now yeah i think it's a kind of an issue i kind of have a problem and then i saw that you were you're you put epoxy on them now

now i just want to get more that's right yeah serial hoarder over here whether it's bitcoin cold cards urls uh whatever i love my hardware too though it's uh it's fun to play these little devices i mean like it's kind of weird that's what i i'm actually banking on like a collection of hardware making me some satoshis in the future yeah like the 21 computer uh original trezor and stuff like that and i think like the most important security thing you could ever do is privacy just don't talk about it no or like even worse like don't ever connect like the device to anything that's connected to the internet right so like because you know if your hardware wallet vendor forces you to connect to their servers to activate the wallet you're essentially

saying hey this is my serial number you know i know you promised not to keep the information but the information is out let's talk about that because i mean the out of the three big hardware wallet vendors you being one of them you're the only guys that like the other hardware wallets work with other software but you're the only guys who don't have your own software you've just chosen to opt out of that situation in the first place right like if you're connecting through like a ledger or treasure through their their built-in software their web wallet or ledger live now has like a separate app that they use um like everything is getting sent to their servers no it's privacy bad privacy by default which i don't subscribe to it's terrible um you know

both those wallets can be used with uh with like say electrum or you know now hwi but if you have to activate the device and most people are lazy they're going to just use the web stuff anyways it's like kind of like what's the point yeah i mean you know that was the main thing behind like making a device that doesn't need to be connected to a computer right like you just use the micro sd fuel you can connect it right if you wanted to yeah or especially maybe it's your warm wallet you know your warm wallet sits on your desk is connected who cares right but for real hodling like you know the stuff should be done cold you know because again there is no perfect solution so you don't know if there is some radios like

attack now some side channel attack that's new and great and actually works and it works remote so the best thing you can do is just opt out so I mean on that tangent one of the things I thought was really cool about the cold card is that you you use the SD card as like a like a ferry you like you're moving data of back and forth between the computer but there is a privacy risk there right because you have this the skeleton wallet that you're moving on to your computer if someone gets access that skeleton wallet then they have all your addresses all your past and future addresses yeah yeah depends you on how

you set up but yes so and is that that's unavoidable right like how do you know ish so because what you could do is you could have you can have an air gap computer, right? Like a laptop that you sort of like drilled out the microphones and you did your proper sanitation of the laptop. And you have the laptop, have the actual wallet. So like you have Electrum on it, you have your full node on it or something. And on that laptop, you create the transactions, right? And then you sign it with a code card and then you broadcast it on another computer right that's the best way to do it exactly so it's not very user-friendly exactly and and because if you are using your own node um and you have say electron pointed to it right

uh you're not broadcasting to anybody your addresses so you have way more privacy that way um and then you can also use say wasabi to anonymize your stuff um but yeah again it's of those things right like you have to pick your trade-offs and i think like one thing that maybe it's not talked enough uh it's like fun segregation like you know create your your cold pile one cold pile two your warm one you're warm too you know you're hot you know and then do coin selection right like select which utxo you're gonna use to send money out um and with those very basic things that you know those are available to pretty much any normal user as opposed to super complicated stuff uh you already do a great job of privacy right just not commingling stuff because you know

a bad guy can only take away what he knows he can take away right if he doesn't know he exists like he can't take away yeah no it's again the nuance to all this is i don't want to say perplexing it's like it's daunting it's very daunting the nuance to it and so do you see this nuance getting better over time or do you think this is the price we have to pay for this yeah it's a little bit the price you know it's kind of like buddy you want to be your own bank toughen up yeah you know like i see bitcoin is like wells fargo crossing us with shotguns you know like it really is like that's being your own bank yeah being your own bank will never be the easiest no you'll never be as easy there is a cost and remember right like there's all these institutions that started

by offering services to keep your stuff safe i mean they kind of screw up through the through the way through the years but uh but you know this cost that you used to defer to somebody else now it's on you right um and and education really is everything um it's uh it's one of my yeah it's one of my thought experience i guess like are people willing to learn will they be willing to learn and i mean it's we're at the bit block boom conference and uh bitstein just went on a great tear uh about me more fair but like lowering time preference was part of it and does bitcoin fix everything the fact like if you're if you're thinking about bitcoin and saving money for the future then you're more inclined to learn about how to secure it and then you just become smarter

and by knowing how to use more stuff like does bitcoin fix everything does it create the incentive to learn more i'm asking you're asking me yeah i don't know i mean i i it's it's it obviously doesn't literally fix everything but it fixes a lot of things and it helps set up a better mindset to life in general um and i i mean in terms of bitcoin storage like the longer you're in bitcoin the more bitcoin you hold like the the more you have to learn so you're compelled you're compelled to learn um in terms of like simplicity like like really the path to go to as simple and as secure as possible is is probably through the creation of of solid hardware right so the way i like to say it's like c passwords right like for websites and things it's still

all crap right we still haven't even solved that problem i mean look at even yubi key got owned and disastrous situation so like bluetooth just got out too it's it's this is this is i don't think this is a like a fully solvable problem um and i think that you know we are fortunate that we get to just do bitcoin all day so we get to also know all this stuff right but like you know your average no coiner goes and buys a few coins of course he he's gonna keep it on on delete coinbase um or cash app um and shout out cash up yeah no it's and and you kind of should initially i think i think we can't like force and we shouldn't force people to go to punch above their weight until they're ready because you know their stuff depends on it right like i mean if we keep on

telling people to just do more complicated stuff without like getting them there they're going to screw themselves out of their their money that's why i like uh shout to cory clipston coming out with giving bitcoin where you give somebody bitcoin but for them to access it they have to go through the process of learning what a private public key pair is what a private key is how to secure it how to secure a seed phrase and then once you've proved that you have at least a base knowledge then you can get the utxs sent to you yeah it's and i think we'll get better i think like because i don't i don't think it's fixable like fully fixable but it doesn't mean it won't get much better yeah and the ux around again like the ux around it like services like that where

it's like all right you want to hold bitcoin here here's a beginner's guide to learning what you're going to need to know when you're custody excuse me custodying your own stuff i think the issue is the incentives are not there for the ux stuff like they really aren't i mean you know you look at even bitcoin aren't they though no because you make it easier for people to hold bitcoin therefore yeah sure the circular economy yeah like i i that in that i agree but because it's not directly related to the ux um i think the incentives are simply not there because otherwise we would already have seen it's been 10 years we've already we would be seeing like better easier to use and we see that on the on the custodial stuff and on the like the the closed source stuff because then

the incentive is there the business model isn't really there exactly there's no business model for you to keep a wallet you know right now i mean it's essentially like a lot of you know on the sort of like on the cold side on the security side on like on the consensus side yes the incentive is there for you to keep bitcoin going so your bag keeps on going too right but on the more user level there really is no incentive for somebody to put all the time doing the ux ui for some you know some security setup uh because you know what he's not going to get paid it's going to be and you It just gets forked or something. Exactly.

Donationware has limits, right? Eventually, people want to get paid, and they should. You should make money out of the stuff you make. I wholeheartedly agree. That's actually something I've been thinking a lot about. People not being able to come to grips that this is all open source software and you should be contributing to that open source effort. By doing that, you're sharing your work with the world.

Again, it can be forked and stuff like that. And I do think there's a mental block, not a mental block, but a lot of people are trying to monetize this stuff. And it's like, oh, you can open source it. And it's, again, I just find like there's this like weird area we find ourselves in 10 years in where people are trying to monetize the open source nature of it. And it's not easy. Maybe it's not possible. How do you break above that? I mean, look at the asymmetry, right?

even on coin kite.com you know you had people like keeping millions millions worth of bitcoin right and like paying us say 30 bucks a month it's like and that was already on the higher account kind of stuff and like and complaining it's like buddy you're paying me 30 million sorry 30 dollars a month to do you know this now if your institution you go pay big go and big go had to change their business model too they they charge the basis point or whatever on transactions because there really is no other way is that what their business model is now i think it is i don't know the last time i check was probably a couple years ago don't really pay attention to uh i think they yeah they charge like percentage essentially the interesting one is i would say like the reverse of that is

that both wasabi and samurai are kind of figuring out a way to to take a profit off of the privacy aspect right i mean like wasabi is probably the most user-friendly software wallet we've had like the best ux i mean it still needs a long way to go but like they're making a decent size profit like you can track like how much they're making from the mixing services yeah i but see that's a value add service right that's not the the wallet itself right so now you're just making that service subsidize the wallet right but eventually you know maybe not maybe they would just keep on and go because it's fun but the incentive for them is going to be to offer just a mixing service as it gets more complicated more people more support and all this stuff like look at joint markets right

you can make money on joint markets by just being a maker exactly market making right so but there no ui there's nothing right that's the service right there uh so you know it is tricky uh maybe on the phone is a little different with samurai for example right because now the stuff is on the phone uh so you need that wallet that ui on the phone so you force them to keep on improving the ui on the phone so that they can make their money from the mix it's like a funnel into their you know they they also like they sell a node and then they they have the the app and everything and all of it funnels into their value add services while the whole thing is still open source and it's harder to fork out something like that because there's such a network effect in

terms of liquidity and and whatnot i mean i feel like that's kind of got to be to to bring the most security and sovereignty to like the average person like you kind of need like a full stack of of of hardware and and software where like they're like handheld kind of through the whole process yeah i think i i still think i keep on trying to convince adam back to just uh uh make a sort of setup a setup box you know for the cell light so like you know you have this box that's what i want you know like it's like it has ethernet on it it's connected to the internet it also has a satellite in the roof it has hard drive on it

it has like decent process so it's essentially running a full node taking the feed from the satellite for like extra checking or in case you lose the internet and then like that's your home node everybody has a home node it's connecting to the satellite

you know and then it's running maybe Electrum private server on it or something and then you have your laptop that connects your own node and you know it's self-validation really if you're not self-validating you're not doing bitcoin and uh and then you know like you can use this laptop for you to do the signing to create the psbd transactions right um but like this is a huge paradigm shift for the average consumer world to move into right it's gonna

take a long time yeah a very long time and i'm happy you brought up the satellites because that's just like another interesting part of bitcoin it's like hey uh yeah you can send transactions via the internet which the layman probably doesn't even understand to begin with it's like oh yeah you can actually send transactions via satellite as well and this is something i love about you is that you're fascinated with ham radio and you sent private keys via ham radio to sam patterson correct yeah i sent i sent uh to sam it was a private key uh with a three word bring wallet yeah but i did send the salt over a different channel i think it wasn't going to and then i did it anyways uh and then i i sent uh then i sent i think elaine a transaction for

her to broadcast for me uh and then we sent a light we did a lightning transaction too um it's uh it's kind of a weird like ham is like the most useless and most useful hobby you ever have how did you get into it uh peter had a license i and i i used to like your partner peter yeah i used to have uh like a boat license back in brazil and i had like you know radios and stuff i've always sort of been into radios uh but i decided to actually get a license so i could do more interesting stuff um you know it's an unfortunate place where most of the hams are like boot leakers uh but because they're but leakers yeah yeah they're very afraid of losing the spectrum you know so yeah so what's let's talk about so what's the deal you have to get a license

to send messages on a certain frequency yeah okay and and essentially like in most countries uh hams are actually allocated uh a decent chunk of spectrum on pretty much every band like including bands for cell phones and all this like we have bands and almost everything all the way to, like, 10 gigahertz kind of thing. It's pretty crazy. That's what – it was crazy learning from Richard Myers, who's working on the mesh network. Why is it escaping me right now?

It's just, like, GoTenna. Lot 49. Yeah, Lot 49, GoTenna, TXTenna. Conceptually, it's a crazy thing. They're just, like, different frequencies of radio waves that are all around us at all times that you can connect to and send messages from. And how the hell does that become, like, a license thing?

You're talking about physics. yeah well so like you know like before there was like commercial military or state radio there was it was actually like amateur people talking to each other like marconi kind of deal right uh and you can do a lot of damage with like uh radio stuff right you have a lot of power you could like stop flights like really yeah like you could you could jam flights like the radio uh on all this stuff how would you do that would you jam just their communication tools yeah you can you could totally do it uh you know they have very sophisticated tools to find you and then take you to jail but but you could cause like some damage kind of like how people can nowadays drive

a drone into an airplane right like um but so so that's sort of like where it came from right like this idea that like you know at least we want to know the people doing this stuff want to make sure they they're like reasonably trained no but they're reasonably trained because you don't want somebody just pressing transmit right like you want to make sure they know like not to encroach on this or that that kind of stuff um i'm not a huge fan personally of licensing systems but this one is tricky uh because there's a lot of externality right um but yeah so i just and then there's all the people who do like like pirate radios and all kinds of stuff like radio is pretty cool i i recommend getting a license because you learn the actual tack it's not like a

stupid like test like you have to actually understand the stuff to take the test so any and that process to start to the task you actually learn the stuff do you think it's a more efficient means of communication um so the cool thing about radio is it doesn't matter which frequency you're in you're speeding you're sending stuff at the speed of light right and and if you're talking on the lower bands that have lower bandwidth they actually bounce on the ion sphere and you can get them to go across the earth like very little power that's what uh zebo and elaine are working on right i don't know if they're actually working on that but no that they propose it's not uh none of this stuff is new to radio people.

Let's put it this way. It's kind of new to Bitcoin. Being able to send Bitcoin transactions is a short way for you. Yeah, I mean, that's already possible. That's what I did with Sam Patterson, right? With Elaine, too. Essentially, we use lower bands

and get them to bounce off the ion sphere and get to the other side because the Earth is round, right? So if you send something... Yeah, I know. Hey, don't say controversial stuff on this podcast. Oh, it's going to be great. We're going to get the flat earthers to hit a bow.

I have a flat earther fan. It's always in my inbox. Whenever on the bent, whenever he says, like, around the globe or something like that, he always gets a response from the flat earthers. Oh, that's amazing. So, like, the radio waves won't go straight on the flat earth. So you have to get them to bounce back, right? And higher frequencies get absorbed, so they fade away.

But lower ones kind of come back. the flat earth conspiracy has just been debunked you can prove it with radio sorry sorry freaks this is now a bitcoin podcast we're no longer a flat earth podcast yeah it'd be pretty weird how like the physics of a flat earth yeah like what's like i mean no it's just like because gravity makes if you believe in planet and that's kind of roundy you should just skip flat earth and go straight to simulation like if you believe that flat i'm okay like you know if you want to say we're in a simulation there if it's flat fine i i can accept that yeah um we gotta go off a little bit of tangent here um i guess what's what's exciting you right now in the hardware space

and bitcoin in particular so i mean we're pretty pumped about sort of working on the next version because i do want to close some some of the trade-off loops there um we we might make another block clock um let's talk about the block clock how did you make that so bitcoin was going to be 10 years old right and i wanted to make like a more artistic object that represented bitcoin right it had to be like something that made a noise and sort of like very very physical to sort of represent this thing that's completely not physical almost analog exactly the analog of it and you know we all care about the bitcoin price uh even though we say we don't and and i like seeing to me at least it's a very like zen thing to just look at bitcoin happening so like i

like to see like how long since the last block and like in which block height we're in kind of thing so you know this thing is just sitting you know in my office looking at me you know like sort of like uh cycling through you know bitcoin information so it gives me like the the block height and then he also does the price and you know we put some sales on it for ourselves because you can put your own api on it um and it's like electromechanic digits uh we actually sourced so there's this one last company in the world that makes like professional digits these guys it's a company in poland that makes digits for train stations yeah yeah basically it's like the old train station and airplane yeah so i wanted i wanted to use the flippy ones right but i couldn't

find the supplier that could make that in any affordable way and nobody makes them anymore in in mass quantity right uh so we set up for the the seven digit electromechanic one and those actually are still used in some some places uh they're rated for 250 million cycles so it's gonna take a little while uh for them to uh to wear off and uh so yeah it's just just nice to have this thing clicking away in my office you know and we found like a the we we did of course in our company aesthetics you know you can see the whole pcb says 10 years of bitcoin on it um and uh we we found like this this cool uh like there's this this framing shop that does frames for the art gallery the main art gallery of ontario and we got them to to make the frames

and we put plexi on it and yeah it's just nice object and it's not cheap no it cost a lot of money for that when you first released it i think it cost a bitcoin that's true that's true i remember seeing i was like this is the most badass thing ever then i clicked the link and i was like nope you know this is the problem bitcoiners right time preference and like frugal crowd it's amazing we sold a few like there's quite a few out there and we're gonna

we're only making 500 of them forever how many have you already made the 500 or no no no we make them

small batches how many are out already I don't know 50, 100 something like that hey freaks go to tftc.io slash contribute

and give us a bitcoin so we can buy a block lock thank you well now it's just now it's just half half a bitcoin it gets cheaper every day

exactly um it's just unfortunately that project i can't really make it cheaper like it's just cost a lot of money to make yeah it's a physical device it's just one of those like flex projects you know you're just like you're just flexing because you can it's just cool yeah like that's you know like at some point i need to turn off the utilitarian mind you know like it's like i need like when i make fun exactly just make something fun right is this fun are you having fun are you more stressed out or are you more uh i love it see i actually i get stressed out the price go up yeah that that sort of that's very uncomfortable especially when it goes then you have to think about it

yeah i don't want to think about it right i want to just like live you know like and i mean you know i i say to people you know like it's cool and all to stack the stats all the time but like don't forget to live your life yeah it's like you know you could get hit by a bus right you know like so you know so what is uh what is living your life to you what do you like to do outside of bitcoin um obviously radio backcountry canoe i hunt my shoot guns uh i barbecue a lot i shit post is that twitter i guess i don't know i've been really enjoying learning economics yeah i mean you know like i have a baby you know baby things you seem like you haven't figured out your pictures when you're when you're paddling in your canoe it's like damn that seems very

peaceful yeah i mean that's why i like i like keeping the business a little bit more like independent and stuff like you know it's nice to make more money it's nice to do stuff but like at some point you have to think about like the cost benefit of making more money too because oftentimes you can't have time and money at the same time you know um and i don't know i just i like to simplify the life a bit you know not like making minimalist home and shit like that but just sort of like try to like not have things in life that complicate your life um yeah i can i can get down with that and this is uh this is something we got on topic last night when we were closing down that bar but let's talk a little bit about your move from brazil to to canada if you're if

you're comfortable with that yeah so um when i was uh 9 19 yeah so i was looking at like i had my shares of like different schools and things like that and then i kind of finally got my like high school diploma and then uh and i did college at night when i was 15 uh yeah like school was not exactly working out for me so i didn't go to an arts degree um and uh um i sort of like went to to go sort of study somewhere else in the world after that and i kind of came to i i don't know for whatever reasons multiple reasons i end up like going to canada to uh to do this college course there because it was interesting um and then i sort of fell in love with the city and decided to stay uh the college course turned out to be crap uh total crap but i

still needed the points to have enough points to apply for citizenship uh applied for citizenship and sort of like never left do you ever think about going back to brazil or no i i love brazil but like it's i don't know it's just like the way my brain works and the way the culture there works just doesn't i like simple uncomplicated so you feel like you found a home yeah yeah i don't like you know the way the country's sort of going more like socialist and more like less freedom and stuff it's very unsettling so like we're brazil or canada canada uh it's just it's mostly a function i mean like this is a country that's like an ex-colony that sort of had the umbilical cord for too long so like you never be sort of like you know what fuck you we're getting out of

this this deal kind of deal right so um i don't know but you know have family there now my wife my my kid so like i'm not moving she won't move yeah it's uh moving is never fun moving is It's probably my least enjoyable activity in the world. I've moved many times in my life. Oh, man. Moving houses, it's just like borderline insanity. Like packing all the crap and, you know, I have lots of tools and the whole lab. It's just crazy.

Just thinking about it, like, it stresses me out. Yeah. It's not fun at all, even if you move, like, three blocks away. It's especially not fun if that's the case. but let's bring this back to bitcoin uh the gentleman sitting to my right here matt odell is running a cold card demo in a few weeks here in new york city do you have any advice for him um yeah so i'm gonna try to come out there say hi um i i think it's like just just empower people to sort of do the stuff themselves you know and and like not don't

push complexity really it's like take people to the comfortable space like one step at a time exactly you know like let them play with bitcoin without going full sort of tinfoil right you get there everybody gets there it's just don't don't put them there it's like trying to find the right balance of tinfoil exactly i mean just just make sure they don't get robbed there's there's a lot of people want to learn about cold cards i think sold out real quick there's like some people who say like you're doing it wrong if you're not using like cubes like it's impossible for like the average person to ever use fucking cubes like that's a ridiculous threshold to set you know i don't even like i just ignore like that kind of stuff because you know it's completely unrealistic

like it's very easy to go you know on like twitter and say oh you should do it that way make the product that work that way i want to see it right no it's yeah it's almost like a a weird humble brag from people when they're saying that shit it's like i mean it's great like people should do it if they can yeah great but the average person is never going to do that unlikely yeah uh it doesn't mean we shouldn't like teach people more exciting sort of more complex stuff but you know people have limitations and people also have other shit in their lives i mean we are just in bitcoin all the time but like you know people have other stuff you know somebody has to like design airplanes you know they can't just shit post on twitter all day

about bitcoin well we definitely need more airplane designers because they're fucking up pretty bad the uh the i think we were talking about this last i don't remember if we were talking about this exactly but i think it was you but the the screens on the back of the seats like i flew american here to dallas and like you could tell like there was a curse on the screen you could tell there's like some shitty software in there you're flying like 300 people through the air and like you can connect to that that device with the usb and it's like it just seems like the most hackable thing and like the worst oh yeah i mean the worst design as far as i understand the entertainment system is fully separated it's supposed to be exactly but you never know right

i mean one guy there connects the wrong thing to the wrong thing and then like yay you know you have full control of the airplane yeah didn't somebody do that though somebody used yeah i think i think so somebody used one of those things just to like change like the temperature of the plate or something like that like hacked into you you wouldn't surprise me if the cabin stuff like the entertainment system and other cabins sort of environmental stuff is like together lighting and stuff like that yeah it probably is as long as like the flight control shit isn't connected to it no and it's kind of crazy right because like planes now are so like complex and the airspace is so busy and stuff they're like you know you really can't have humans flying

planes anymore i mean a human doesn't fly a plane anymore it's all automated like for like quite some time uh they have the pilots there i guess just to make everybody feel great just take off and land and then look i mean you know when the the max had the issue you know like the reality is you know the airlines chipping out on the education of the pilot the pilots or didn't buy the extra safety feature or whatever, and as soon as the pilot sticks his greasy fingers on the thing, it's just poof.

No, it's whenever I get on a flight, I just submit myself to the fact that I may die, you know? This could be the one, and there's nothing I can do about it. Yeah, exactly. You're just going to submit yourself. Planes are fucking safe. It's like crazy safe.

When you look at the statistics of this stuff, compared to cars and trains it's insanely safe like it anyways it's yeah sorry for fear-mongering freaks no but i mean it's one of the few situations in our life where you don't have control you have like zero control so even though it's it is extremely safe it's by the odds it's like you you're in someone else's hands you're completely you're completely letting yourself into someone else's if you think that that's bad see i don't think enough people put like like thinking into being in the highway like you're going at you know like 100 kilometers an hour 60 right in uh in in american i drive too you know of course more for some people you know whatever and like every imbecile who is like

who you consider an imbecile is driving at the same speed as you it's crazy very near you no i just think about how angry i get in a car and then like i'm a very i do not like traffic or other drivers you're literally trusting everybody else it's the most ridiculous like if you think about it like now it's the most ridiculous mode of transportation like let's let's just have all these people and just trust them yeah driving one ton yeah vehicles around just hope that they don't fuck and if one person fucks it up it's not even that is dangerous you could just have traffic for hours isn't traffic accidents like the highest killing like thing that there is for humans it's like it's essentially like it's like people concern about guns and things

like that's like no car skill yeah cars kill more people and then people are are concerned trolling about uh self-driving cars they're like oh we can't we can't go to a full self-driving car system because so many organ donations come from car accidents that we yeah but drunk uncle joe can right like it's like uh i hope we get to uh an autonomous self-driving car future i i think it won't happen for planes you gotta for a long time it's just like just thinking about like you know how like legislation for that stuff works and but i think we will see delivery i think delivery will move into like autonomous autonomous for sure yeah like that to me is like where it's gonna go and not even for the semi trucks on the highway and stuff like i'm talking about like

drones amazon yeah like amazon is gonna just and it's gonna be like like a small little car and it's gonna beep and you go outside and take it out of the thing and i see like uber could be like a yeah pretty big stepping stone especially if you have certain lanes and stuff that are just only autonomous because then everything gets a lot of the the issues and the drawbacks get taken care of if all the vehicles in that it's gonna be tricky in like cities that are dense and stuff like but you know rural deliveries and things like that i mean it's pretty simple i guess yeah i don't know who it was it was either fedex or ups but like two days ago they came out and they've been they've been uh discreetly testing uh in arizona autonomous delivery vehicles and

supposedly been going really well it's like kind of like green energies in a way it's like it's very hard to tell when it's just a marketing exercise or you know i guess like every time it's like if it has a pr angle to it it's like you know that's probably not even the model that the engineers are working on that's the one that fits bigger sticker so many problems to solve here gentlemen i know bitcoin solves everything right lower that time preference car accidents may be the one thing bitcoin can't solve bitcoin can solve that how you could take like bitcoin security deposits and you could take their bitcoin if they get into a car accident there you go people have a bond you want to drive a car you have a bond

if you if you get an accident the person that you hit automatically gets the bitcoin connected to your car oh that problem solved see bitcoin solves everything i want to pay people in bitcoin to move out of my way when there's traffic why not right i mean that would be like amazing like just creating an economy on the highway like that could you imagine the bidding that would go on for that that would be expensive yeah they would get like blade level expensive at some point but see if you're a bitcoiner you don't have a problem you don't have you don't want to get anywhere because of the amount of fucking good episodes on podcasts that you're gonna hear on your car so like seriously it's like this thing is eating my life so like you know you're gonna you're gonna

sit in the car and and you're gonna earn sats to listen to podcasts and get out of the way of other people maybe that is the solution maybe maybe people are better that's the uber of the future you just go by yourself and like hey i'm gonna hold up traffic and you assholes have to pay me to move yeah i mean the car is the best place to listen to podcasts and audiobooks it's amazing i need to uh upgrade my car because i'm still riding on analog radio no but it's i like i actually like when i listen to podcasts in the car like having one ear butt in yeah i think it's it's a better experience than having come through the speakers really yeah the speakers suck at voice i mean they're good for music unless you have like a fancy car stereo like the speakers

are not great for voice it's interesting i never knew that yeah because i've been actually i started i've been commuting by car a lot more lately and that's how i always do my podcast it's always one ear but in my in my ear does it make the drive go faster and you're more patient you're enjoying the drive more you know you but i think you're probably a better driver when you have when you're listening to a nice a nice bitcoin podcast or when you're tweeting no i'm joking don't tweet and drive people please do not tweet and drive that's actually one thing that really pisses me off when i see people texting like on the road and you're going 80 miles an hour it's like please stop um so when are you guys coming to visit canada well i was there a few

weeks ago really in montreal uh montreal um i do need to get toronto that was my first time in come by toronto let's go have steak i would love to let's all the bitcoiners come by we go for maybe we should do a toronto live show i'd be down there you go i think we get some people to go to that how's the bitcoin community in toronto so toronto had a very old bitcoin community there a lot of bitcoiners there uh and then ethereum happened they're all shit corners didn't anthony the oreo buy like the tallest building or something like that if you bought a penthouse yeah so like the the early ethereum people really made it like good chunk of cash uh but they so we used to have a bitcoin dev meetup uh in toronto like back before ethereum existed it's very early

days uh and then we started getting shitcoiners coming in to try to peddle their stuff and then we just stopped it that's why everybody needs to adopt the bit devs model of bitcoin meetups and just have no mercy for chicory no because our meetups were kind of like not very uh so the way we ran it was i'd buy a few uh cases of beer put it on the room and then people come and then we ask if anybody had a project they wanted to show they could show the project and then we would essentially just sort of like have like people just in kind of like standing circles sort of talking about stuff and arguing about bitcoin stuff or economics uh so it was a very easy to get infected by shit coiners trying to push their crap because we were not controlling who's coming

or that kind of stuff yeah no it's hard well the way bit devs does it is it's like socratic style yeah um so like if someone asks a question that's obviously shit coin focused and they get ostracized right and also what i like about bit devs is they also have beer which is great it's like a nice relaxing environment and uh and they have no photos i think that's it's super underrated that that i think you know somebody pulls out their phone take a picture but devs they get i want to have a gold i want to have a bitcoin conference that there's no photos oh bitcoin uh like breaking bitcoin is like that really yeah you can't take unless you have permission from the person like you can't take crowd photos or things like that i think that should be more common because

i always feel self-conscious when i'm at these conferences and then i keep getting hit on camera and stuff like that. Yeah, some woman was just taking like a panoramic video. I just tweeted a picture of you. There you go, exactly.

Kidding. Rodolfo is part of the problem. We're all part of the problem. You know, I kind of, yeah, I mean, the privacy stuff, unfortunately, I didn't think Bitcoin

was going to happen this much. So I kind of like doxxed myself in the early days and sort of... You're going to have to shave your beard. Yeah.

It's always the bear markets. Yeah, but you know, all the podcasts use the like picture of me from like, I don't know, like 10 years ago. They're like,

I'm like looking like like a decent person it's kind of weird hey don't sell yourself short you look pretty decent right now i know but like yeah so i guess it's kind of good yes please keep on using that picture and i'll slowly get older and have a bigger beard um speaking of beards mine's growing here we've been here for almost an hour and a half gentlemen is there anything else that you want to touch on in particular matt i mean i'm ready to eat some lunch yeah i'm pretty hungry i'd be starving we're all hungover and hangry yes that's uh do you have a parting note you actually you know what am i doing fasting today uh maybe maybe maybe i'll wait for dinner we'll

see do you have a parting note for the freaks out there anything you want to say anything you want to show anything um wisdom you want to impart no i mean like you know you guys do a great job podcasting and i i think it's it's i don't think it's under under appreciated anymore but i think education is like a huge huge part of developing a new system um and like podcasts that sort of like take the time and sort of like introduce the concepts and things to people are great uh and and it's nice that a lot of the podcasters have a lot of integrity and don't bring shit coiners or like things that validate or could be perceived as validation um so like you know like thanks for educating people yeah well thank you that was

unexpected compliment and thank you for building stuff that we can actually talk about on this podcast yeah thank you very much and also on that note we do if you go to our youtube uh channel we have a wasabi plus cold card demonstration oh that video was great one take yeah i know that video was fantastic i mean keep on making those videos because every time somebody asked the same question for the i know right a hundredth time i just i i just normally send them a link to our tfm and then i i send a link to one of the videos that somebody made that's good for the topic yeah it's actually on the horizon for tfdc more quote unquote evergreen content that we can point people to guides and videos and written guides and classes and courses yeah all the above and

you know whenever you guys need hardware just let us know you know if you're if you're making educational material for us you get free hardware i mean like and and uh we might have like a like a a pseudo affiliate thing where we might be able to at least like give educators or something like some money back for sending people our way or something i feel like people need to get paid yeah i mean a cold card membership so they just get new hardware gets shipped to my house you that's not a bad idea maybe we're gonna work out on that uh i would pay up front every year for that that's that's really not a bad idea uh and you know we can send like some of the other stuff we make and maybe the micro sds and all that yeah it's a nice incentive alignment yeah no i i like

that and and then we have like some like expectation too of like what kind of revenue we're gonna get so it's a lot easier to plan that way uh because harder is like totally up front right you have to literally pay for production you have to buy the parts some parts like six months in advance before you even manufacturing to then put it for sale this is so it's like it's very upfront capital heavy yeah it's a very extended timeline too yeah it seems yeah well thank you for building all the dope that you have and we'll continue to build well thanks for having me thanks for sitting down this is uh i don't think we can stand up hangover as we are this was awesome i had such a good this i was looking forward to this conversation it's great to finally meet you

too i know right it's like finally meeting in person is great and you're uh just as hilarious and awesome in person as i expected peace and love freaks stay humble stack sets