That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Anne-Marie Duff

Episode Date: October 17, 2023

Anne-Marie Duff joins Gaby to talk about hit shows Sex Education and Shameless and Bad Sisters.She has had an incredibly varied career, working in film and television, and she has embraced the joy in all of it! Anne-Marie talks about working with Sharon Horgan, getting recognised in the street for a show she made 20 years ago - and she opens up about her shyness, something which she and Gaby share. Oh and guess what...Bad Sisters is coming back!!!! Woohoo! They're filming it NOW! We cannot waaaait. We hope you enjoy the chat (and apologies for the naughty words!) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

welcome to reasons to be joyful. I hope you've been enjoying the podcast, and if you have, and you're feeling very generous, we would love it if you left us a review, please. Thank you. On today's episode, I'm so excited to welcome an actor whose work I absolutely love. I've been following her career for years, from shameless to his dark materials to bad sisters. Of course, I am talking about the wonderful Anne-Marie Duff. Here she is, and I hope you enjoy it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amory Duff, to say that I am a superfan is an understatement, so I have to get it out there because it's one of those embarrassing things.

If I don't say it, then by the end of it, I might explode. Well, that's really lovely. I'm so, I'm always just amazed that people enjoy what I do, but I love that feeling myself. Because it's a real risk, it's a real leap going up to someone and saying, I think you're amazing. Because sometimes it can backfire. Sometimes people can not deal with it and be really like,

and you're like, oh, God, I shouldn't have said anything. It's all over between us now. But people love to hear that they're appreciated, don't they? Well, I think it's very interesting. They're sort of two different type of performers, actors, whatever. There are the ones that just can say thank you. And then the ones that just are mortified and just don't like it. And I just took it that you'd be one of those.

So many of the things that I want to talk about, really weirdly, I want to go backwards, I want to go forwards, I want to go into stuff that you're about to do. but I'd like to talk to you first if I may about shyness because it's something I suffered with and still do and we talk about it on this podcast quite often but I love the fact that you talk about it and it's interesting that many people don't want to

they just go oh no I don't want to but so many interviews and so many times you've talked about it and I wish more people did because they don't understand it's a proper problem when you're younger. Yeah, I really had it when I was a kid. I'd say like predominantly primary school years. And I guess for upper school I built up a sort of resilience. And I found drama, which helped.

But absolutely. And to this day, you know, I sometimes have to give myself a break and know there's that beautiful book, isn't there, that Susan Kane brought out a few years ago about being an introvert. And it's really brilliant because it articulates that it's okay to have had enough at a certain point in a party and need to go home. You know, and I know that about myself. And I, for a long time, especially within our industry, I thought, oh my, I should be more, I should be able to be more this, more of that. You know, you're always looking at the lax in yourself.

And then even last year, actually, I remember having a word with myself at 2 o'clock in the morning going, Duff, just give yourself a break. You went and you were pleasant and lovely and had a laugh. And then when it was time to go home, you went home, you know, and my best friends know that about me and laugh about it. Yeah, I love that. Well, I like that you're so open about it because one of the things is, for me, another fellow shy sufferer

where I do get, I mean, excruciating moments of Shina Still. And is that thing that people are, oh, you? Yeah. And you do this, you do this. You go, no, but I, and that's why I want to talk about it. So people know that it's not just them. No, and there's a funny little muscle you exercise for work. So if I'm in a rehearsal room, oh, fabulous.

I don't feel shy there because it's like a safe zone for me. But put me into the middle of another scenario and I'm crippled. So I think there are muscles that you flex and you keep on because you love what you do so much. you know, well, I've got to be able to do this. You know, if I want to do this job, I've got to be able to do it. So I think that's true, isn't it, for people in an hour work. Completely. I remember being at 15 and thinking, I mean, I was shy all the way through.

And I remember thinking at 15 when people used to say, what do you want to do? And I go, I want to be a TV presenter. They go, but you're so shy. Right. And I just used to want to then open my mouth and say, but you don't understand. You just don't get it. And I think there are a lot of people, it's interesting, the minute I talk about shyness, I get such a massive response from people saying, just actually saying thank you.

Where's where we started about saying thank you. But people saying thank you because a lot of adults still suffer with it and people don't understand. And I think you have to give people a break. We don't all have to go to a house party and go, hey, see, I hate to take my husband's hand and I say, when you go to the loo, when he says he's going to the loo sometimes, I'm coming! I'm coming, do! Because I just can't be left.

No, the point is we're all different and thank God, really. And I love extroverts. I think they're amazing. So do I. You know, and I think fair play to you, you're incredible because your need for companionship

equals my need for solitude. And if either of us are off kilter, then we don't function well. So, you know, there's space for all of us. So talk me through how the acting happened, because your parents weren't in the industry. No, very working class Irish family. Shoes shop, was it?

Your mum was a shop. My mum worked in a shoe shop and my dad was a painter and decorator right up until retirement. Can I play? I worked in a shoe shop as a student and I love it. Try on every pair of shoes, which I wasn't supposed to. So I love the idea your mum worked in a shoe shop. Yes, it was just normal, you know, and my Saturday jobs were very normal. You know, I worked in a baker's and I worked in Evans close.

store and you know so yeah and I guess what it was born out of was my love of story and I think a lot of people who live inside their heads you know this Shonda Rhymes talks about this doesn't she how she totally lived in her head as a kid now she's Gondaland you know but I read and read and read and I've inherited that for my father actually and my mum a wee bit but my dad is a massive bookworm had he been born into different circumstances I have no idea what I'm what he could have been, you know, he'd have been a great English teacher or something. But, yeah, so it started with that love of narrative and the power of story and and imagining myself inside different scenarios.

And then my best friend at school called Lisa Hopkins said she was going to go to like a youth drama club. It was a very low-key thing. And would I go with her so she had someone with her? And I was, my first instinct was absolutely not, you know. And then I think my misty memory is that my mom and dad were like, could be a good idea, could be, da-da-da, you know. Lovely.

They gently facilitated it. I went and was like, well, this is just the same as books. And that is how it happened. Because if you are a bit panicky about stuff, then you've either got chapter one, chapter two, chapter three, chapter four. You've got act one, act two, act three, act four, you know, and it all makes sense. and there's a chronology and you go,

oh, we can live inside this. There's no, I know there's space, you know. Books are, but what books do for us? Yeah. They're so important. There are some amazing charities that go and give out books to families that don't have books,

don't have books in their lives. And then you hear these incredible stories of these young people suddenly saying, that's what my imagination can do. And also teaches you empathy. It teaches you difference. I love it. difference. Oh, celebrate it. So then you went after drama college and then I'm going to

spin forward to not long after to Shameless, which it's interesting. Doing all my research and everything on you, that people still say Amory Doff, Shameless is Amory Doff. Listen, I now have a whole new, so for a while there was all sex education was all the young ones like 19-year-olds, whatever, stopping me. Now it's shameless because it's on Netflix. So people go, oh, excuse me, excuse me, can I just ask you, are you Fiona from Shameless? I'm like, my God, that show is 20 years old.

It's sort of, they, you know. It has a new. That is fantastic. But it was such a life-changer for most of us involved in that show. It really, really was, you know. But it changed the way we've, you know, we looked at television. It was something so different and so new.

And the irony about it is now, watch those first, especially the first season series, it can look really derivative because everybody copied it. So it was like everyone copied the style of it. So now you look at it and go, well, that's just like any old thing. But at the time, like you say, it was really groundbreaking. It really was. I didn't realize it was out on Netflix again. I think I wanted to go and re-watch it because I think it must still stand up today. All of those issues are still going on today. That's poverty. That's what's about on. Even more so. Yeah, never, in fact.

So good. Oh, did you enjoy? Was that... We did. It was absolute chaos from beginning to end. It was one of those jobs. Good chaos. Yeah, but it kind of suited the animal.

You know, it was... So we did. And of course, and I met my ex-husband, and I met Maxine and Dean Lennox Kelly and obviously David Threlfall, genius. So it was a very powerful group of actors. And if you look at the other actors who were in it, say, because I only did the first two seasons.

But they're amazing actors. who came in and out of shameless, you know. But how do you feel that people still will say, shameless is amrida? What can you do? It's a bit like being a musician and writing a hit. You've got to say, well, I did it, you know, and I'm grateful for it.

That's what I remember Elizabeth Gilbert talking about that, about eat, pray, love, and she said, you know, people always say, she said, I've written other books, you know, but you know what? How lucky was I that that happened? And it's, I'm so pleased you say that. Yeah, you have to be grateful otherwise. A lot of people don't like that.

Because they'll say, do you have to mention something that I did a long time ago? Well, people loved it. Listen, the other thing that I'm grateful for is that they still recognise me from it. You haven't changed your bit. You haven't changed it. Obviously, there's films, and we can go in and out. Suffragette is something like, I love suffrager. That was great.

That was great to do. Was that another enjoyable? Oh, yeah. My God, it was incredible. and also the after shock of it with all the 12-year-old girls stopping me because they all really loved my character because she was so feisty.

So it was great. That was the bliss of it, was that really young females were coming up and talking to me about it. That's interesting because you said that a couple of times then. So you do get people coming up to you quite a lot then talking about all the different things. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't get that. That's great. Which is a nice thing. It's not like, say, if you're working a soap or on the Marvel, universe or something where it's you're so a thing that people aren't relaxed enough to talk to you about

what your work has done for them whereas if you do the level of work I do you get a good chat out of it and what do they do they want to know about the character they don't want to know about you yeah exactly oh that's what you're doing yeah I don't have any of the old

and even like say now I'd be out and about my kid or whatever people never bother him or, you know, we are, it's me. So it's great. It's just about that, oh my God, excuse me, you. And I'm dead lucky, huh? Especially bad sisters now. Oh, we've got to, you know. All right, you've mentioned it. You brought it up. We have to talk about it. Sharon Hogan, goddess. Yeah, she's an incredible talent. She's an incredible talent. There is nobody like her, you know, she has a voice that's so different to anybody else's. I love her. Absolutely love her. I randomly message her just to tell her I love her because I think she's so fantastic.

Okay, bad sisters and people use the word phenomenon which, no, we watched it, we thought it was fantastic we were completely there, we got it straight away. It's so clever, it's so dark and funny but you don't feel guilty that you're laughing.

I know, that's he's astonishing actually because that was the one thing that Clace and I were very committed to making our storyline really true. Because there was a little bit of like, really is that, but we're not making a gritty drama

conversations happening, but we knew you had to do that otherwise the audience would not be willing the girls to kill him. You know, you had to put them in that space. And also, obviously, clearly the responsibility of telling that kind of story, but actually, just in terms of the gig, I just knew it had to be. so believable that everyone's going, go on!

You know. He's just, I mean, playing that, it's, you know, as I say, it's dark. It is very, very dark. People who haven't seen it. It's about abuse and it's, he did it so well. And I actually, it's one of those times that I think I'm going to be scared to meet him. And he's an actor. Yeah, he's an actor.

And he did it brilliantly. But it's very issue-led And when you made that speech And you talked about abuse And at home and everything That's another thing that television does so well Especially comedy Because you don't expect that story

Creeps up on you And you get away with murder Well also There's no such thing as comedy without jeopardy Buster Keaton standing in a house Nearly kills him But it just misses him You know it's that's the

you need risk and anyone who's brilliant at comedy they just know that for free don't they so you need to have danger when you made that speech yeah did you decide you were going to do that beforehand was there something that just came out of it? Well I just looked around the room right and I thought you know we're all

talking about how divided we've become how splintered society is how there is a lot of spouting of opinion that says if I'm right everybody else must be wrong and I looked around the room and I thought God television is the most extraordinary rainbow demographically. There are people from every walk of life making every kind of television in this room at this moment. And we all have the privilege of going into people's homes.

And I'll never forget hearing somebody talk about him in Ken Loach, actually, I had a meeting with Ken Loach a billion years ago. And he was talking about the power of Kathy Camp Home and what it did. And I've never forgotten that and how you get to whisper in people's ears. and I thought shit I'm on TV and I've just played a woman who was in a coercive marriage and I have a special prize for it so I've got a little moment where I can just say

don't fucking take it don't take any more of it you know it just sort of occurred to me sitting in there and then I just So you didn't pre-planet it just not properly no I just looked around I saw this group of all of us all of us crazy birds

and I just thought right I'm just going to say something and then I quickly wrote it my head. It was so powerful. And it's important that maybe that people who are going through that see that on television and they say, that's my situation. It's a big responsibility, isn't it? Being bullied in any scenario is so, there's a lot of very similar themes, whether it be

at work or in a relationship or at school or, you know, it's a very similar dynamic. And there's going to be more. There's going to be more bad sisters Are you filming that yet? We start early September I so don't want you to tell me what's going to happen But I need to ask

It's one of those I'm so delighted it's coming back I really am And I missed it And everybody I know I do a radio show And on the radio show All our reviews

We miss it now We miss it It became such a part of our lives And I like that it dropped every week. Yeah, me too. I love that. Oh, I've forgotten how ripping that was and you just couldn't wait and then the minute it did, we were all texting each other. Did you? Oh, yeah, yeah. Can you give us any inkling?

Oh, there's some great new characters coming in. Okay. That are fantastic and outrageous. Yeah, and we'll be back at the 40 foot for a swim. And I can't say anymore. Are I on pain of death, I suspect? No, please don't. I don't want you to, but I want you to, but please don't. But we're lucky because it's Apple, UK. So we aren't affected by the strike.

So we're able to crack on, which is brilliant. Actually, so has it affected you with anything else? Because I know, obviously, there are certain shows that we can't talk about, we won't talk about, because all the other actors that I speak to, they say, please don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I presume, like all other actors, you feel quite strongly about what's going on. I think it's incredible. I'm really proud of my American cousins.

You know, I think it's extraordinary. It's a big risk, but the system is flawed. It's mightily flawed. And if you look at the food chain, the people high up on the old food chain aren't affected as badly as people lower down. So they have to really step out. And I'm glad they are. Yeah.

I will watch this way. I mean, they've delayed the Emmys now, haven't they, until January. Are you, were with Bad Sisters up for Emmys? It was, wasn't it a lot? Yeah, we're up for a better. Best director, best writer and best actress, Sharon is up for best actors. So that's very exciting. So that'll now be January.

Yeah. And may you win them all because quite frankly you should. I love the fact that you speak about these things, you know. That you talk about shyness and bullying, that you talk about, again, bullying and, again, bullying and coercive relationship. But also you talk about your brother's Alzheimer's. He said you would talk about that. He was diagnosed how old? How old was he?

So his diagnosis was seven years ago, which would have been in his mid-40s. But he had been living with it for a few years before. But because it was so early, nobody suspected that. You know, it was all the classic. Why can't he keep his job? Is he drinking?

Is he this? Is he that? What's wrong? It's not cack-handed. What's wrong with him? How did it show? Well, it started off in really minor things. I think very classically,

you'd be making a cup of tea. He'd be like, Daddy, what are you doing? You know, it'd be like that, or he'd get on the wrong bus. Or like, I remember one time we were up in Glasgow for Christmas and I'd bought him a train ticket to come up because he just couldn't keep a job. God love him.

And he got to Houston or wherever it was he was going from, maybe Kings Cross Houston, and he was there two hours early for the train. You know, it was just always these little things and it would just be like, and I was trying to help him, codependent me, he was desperately trying to help him. him and I booked him to see a therapist.

I didn't know what was going on. And then one day, I think he had a sort of panic attack in our neighborhood because he was living close to me. I made sure. And he was aware that just everything was collapsing and he walked into our GPs and said, I need help and I cannot tell you. It was like the universe just went, okay, and just moved into gear. The GP had him referred to the brain hospital in Queen Square.

and it just everything then moved. I got him into supported housing and it's been a journey and it's still going and it's heartbreaking. So he was aware as well? He didn't know what was wrong. It was a weird kind of semi-consciousness so that he then was, even when I remember clearly

the day that he got his diagnosis, we were sitting in the hospital, I sat beside him. And the specialist was sitting opposite and said to him, this is it, this is what we've discovered. They've done lots of scans, lots of tests for two weeks he'd been tested because he was so young they were like is this a new

strain of dementia is this you know and they told him what the diagnosis was and he said okay so when this all comes to fruition he said when this passes and I was like he cannot grasp so it was weird it was just then it was just like there were huge pieces of his jigsaw missing you know um so that was really heartbreaking because I was like oh dude you don't really get it In my naivety, I didn't realize that such young people could get together. Even younger, sadly, there are some people. The weird blessing was he wasn't married with kids. Because then there would have been somebody left with his care

and there would have been children losing their dad, you know. So young. Yeah. Again, you know, it's so important to talk about because it can be hidden for a lot of people. So it's great that you talk about all of these things. And you've got the space and the place to do all of this. It's tricky because you want to talk about stuff,

but you don't want to be a billboard. You don't want to be annoying. I don't think you are. No, but you know, you try to temper it so that you talk about it without it being... You're not table thumping. No, because nobody listens when somebody shouts. Yeah.

That's the truth, huh? So... Going back to the character in Bardsis. Yeah. Don't listen. Okay, so let's talk about the joyful. stuff on working or something like Bad Sisters.

Please tell me that you all I mean, apart from the fact that you all went swimming at freezing cold water and you all managed it just. It must have just been the best fun because I can't think of a better bunch of women to be with. Can you imagine you have all these incredibly talented

well it's a show full of leading ladies. Yes. Hallelujah! You heard me shout that. But also that's just so unspeakably rare, but not just it's a show with lots of female characters. Every single one of them is swollen with a million things. So you don't just have like, oh, here's our heroine, and here are the other women around her.

Oh, and it's a show for women. You know, it wasn't like that. And in fact, I've had so much feedback from men. I've been so brilliantly surprised. I was walking on Hampstead Heath and this group of men runners, and they stopped me to say, oh my God, we just wanted to talk to you about coercion. We've got a friend and we're really worried that he's not being really...

Oh, my what? Totally shit. Here I am. That's incredible. Yeah. So you never know. The ripples, right? You never ever know.

But yes, we did have the best time. And Clace made me laugh all the time. He's completely mad in a brilliant Scandinavian way. And so we did laugh a lot. And the girls were all so witty and funny. And Michael Smiley, who plays Roger, is, you know, he's from stand up. And he's, you know, he was in spaced with Simon Pegg. and Jessica He's from that world.

So he is hysterically funny. So he made me laugh all the time. So yeah, it was a glorious band of people. Did you have those moments where we saw all of them going off and having their scenes and think, Hello. And I'd be sat with Clay's going, oh God, we've got a girl, be miserable. And off they'd go and they'd have all these glamorous gorgeous costumes.

And I'd make this very conscious decision that she was kind of a Stepford wife and she would have, you know, like Mum at Bowden kind of sort of. like look and so I've been really strict about that and they'll be like oh but look they look so beautiful they're going off and having a really good time and they are insanely close the four of them as well they're really close it's really lovely they are like sisters it's spectacular when you see them all it's gorgeous

I can imagine I'd be like come and play now and also you're going to be doing another season of suspects yeah I loved that I know, it was so great. You and Jimmy. He was amazing in that show. I'm shocked.

He hasn't had more recognition for his performance in that show, actually. Because he's so brilliant in it. And it's so, it looks so different from a lot of dramas. It's shot so beautiful. You had a Belgian director and DVD. I was going to say it was shot. It was stunning. The colours and, you know, so.

So, yeah, and I'd seen the Danish original production. They'd sent it to me before, you know, when they first asked me to be involved And the second season with the wife was even better than the first. I was like, oh yeah, I'll do it. How fantastic. So have you started filming that one as well? That happens straight after Bad Sisters. So that's all.

How lovely to know, to have those things like that. Yeah, because I've taken quite a bit of time off actually. So it would be nice now to then go on and go and be busy for a bit, you know. Now, my daughter would never, my younger daughter would never forgive me if we don't talk about his dark materials. because that world she was completely engulfed in that world and it also brought her she read the books

and then it made her go back and read the books and the BBC did it beautifully it was fantastic wasn't it and it wasn't too unreal it was very it was it sounds so crazy

because it was another world but it felt very here and now well that's the books isn't it it's a parallel dimension and the parallel being the operative word. So it feels like this version of our world

that's just ever so slightly magical. Tilted, yes. Yeah. So, and I absolutely loved the books. I loved the books. And meeting him, meeting Philip Pullman, was incredible, you know. So, yeah, I was like,

oh God, absolutely, am I going to be involved in that? It was gorgeous, you know, and I loved, and I, you know, I loved the way we made the Egyptians, the way they were. I wanted to be a bit wilder with it, with lots of tattoos and stuff, but they're a bit like, kids TV.

Oh, it was wonderful though. See, I think that's where I love it when books come to life. We're going back to what we're saying about books. Yeah. Because I have a picture of all, when I read a book, I completely immerse myself and my imagination goes completely wild. But when they are made into a TV show or into a film and it's like the book that, and it's like my head was and that's what that did.

And it's great. The most satisfying feeling. I do agree with you. I feel they really. captured the spirit of the book. And the way they cast it was so beautiful. All these incredible actors. And Ruth was so perfect for Mrs. Coulter.

She's just amazing, you know. And I just think it's fantastic. And we did. We had a great old time. And the attention to detail. Holy smokes on the set design was incredible. So it was like you were there. Yeah.

Well, they built the entire interior of our canal boats, you know, and we would just be in them all day. filming and I got to meet Lynne Manuel who I just love and we just would sit and sing show tunes. I was just going to ask you, please tell me you some. Did you sing Hamilton and in the Heights? Well, we didn't do his shows. Oh, you didn't do his shows?

No. Which ones would you sing? But we would just sing any old show tune and he'd go okay, okay Duff, name the show and he would sing something and we would just laugh and... And you'd sing it with him because you were a singer. I don't know. The theatre person like me I was just like, and so yeah and he's dead funny and yeah so that was great you know to have you just never know who you're going to meet the only my only disappointment was that Andrew wasn't in my season andrew scott he I love and is such a very funny man um so we our paths didn't cross but yeah that would

but you had come on you had Lynn memoir I just yeah I love the idea of singing show tunes because I know singing is your because you thought you were going to be a it was one of the things I was sort of when I was just at the fork in the road, you know, at the start, a base camp going, oh my God, oh my God, because I didn't get into drama school first time around because I looked, honest to Jesus looked about 12 when I was 18. You still do. You do. You do.

Actually, I'll give you 80. You're 80. Yeah, so, and it was that to say it was either all. Yeah, well, there was like a, there was a triple scenario. There was, I got a place on a foundation course to do art. And then I was singing was a possibility but it would have been classically trained and drama school

and I knew I wanted to do drama school and my lovely dad, Brendan Duff. I still remember the exact moment he put his arm around me and said, Listen, smudge, I don't think you're a painter. And I just looked up at him and he's he just got me, you know. I was so lucky he got me.

We're very similar people actually. I'm a real Duff, you know. How fabulous. Yeah. But the singing, do you still do it? Apart from with Lynn Manuel, Marath. I did a bit of singing. I was lucky I did a play last year at the Almada

where I played someone who was an extraordinary character who had been thwarted her life. It wasn't what it was supposed to be. But there were sort of flashbacks of her singing in her youth. So I got to sing and that was gorgeous. I loved it. But will you do more? I'd love to, yeah.

I'd love to. Because Damien Lewis has just. He's just come out and went, right, I'm going to put a band together and do an album. There I was looking at me waitrose paper. I said, look at Daniel, looking at rock and roll. He'll love that you saw him in a waitress. That's so Damien Lewis. Not in some, an M.E.

No, waitrose paper. I love it. I just, I did, I had that exact talk because, you know what, if any, I think when big shit hits the fan, you go, do you know, what do you know, what do I want from my love? What window do I want to throw open and yell out of today? It's really important, isn't it? And you get those wake-up calls, don't you? Okay, so which window would you open? Do you know, if I was, look, I can't even articulate it

because it actually means something to me. I would love to write. And it's something I'm, it's a very emotive thing for me. And I recently have been trying to do some writing and every one of my friends has been like, what the fuck aren't you writing? So why aren't you? It's really interesting.

I don't know. I guess it's fear. It's fear. And also I bumped into lovely Catlin Moran once and she said to me, no, you just have to keep going. You just have to keep doing it. And then you get over that. She was a bit like, come on, duh, shut the fuck up.

You know. And I think that's partly it too. Also, I had this great chat with somebody once about our generation, right? We look at these young ones and they go, I'm multi-fucking tasking. I am going to be this, this and this. So nobody is going to put me into a lane. But for us, we had to fight so freaking hard to have our lanes. I think there's still a tiny little inbuilt thing of,

if I step out of it, will it just vanish? Will it just evaporate and be gone forever? And I think we have to retune the radio, don't we? You are so right. You know, and I think that you kind of forget that. It's all about incrementalism. It's all, you really, and I really, learn this and I've had great chats with the young feminists about this, you know. Don't forget

that every step that was taken before you is just as valid as the big leaps you can take now. And I think, and it made me think about myself and God, actually, Duff, that's part of your journey too, because everything's relative. My mum's generation had this, our generation has this, you know, and it's, and our daughters, you know, now have what they have because of us taking those steps. But sometimes those steps can be really big leaps and they can be really exciting. The fear can stop you but once you do it, and actually as Caitlin Moran said, just do it. Because you're not going to, nobody's going to judge you. Nobody's going to judge you. You're just sitting there. You're going to do it. Why not? Do it for yourself. What is it? What is the worst that can happen?

That's the thing, isn't it that your therapist always tells you. What's worse that can happen? Just write it. So back today and write, do take a half an hour. write something and just go, right, I did it. That was half an hour. Don't look at it again. Walk away from it. You think, right, I've done half an hour. Tomorrow, do it again. Exactly. So that's, I'd say that would be it. Okay. Well, I look forward to reading it. Thank you so much. What a pleasure to chat to you think.

And to you, Miss Gaffey.