That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Bryony Gordon

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Bryony Gordon is a journalist, author, runner, mental health ambassador and...an all round joy spreader! (she also swears a lot, so apologies for the naughties in this ep!) Bryony chats to Gaby about her new book, 'Mad Woman', and some of the many things that bring her joy. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today's podcast with discussing the joy of ginger shots for two people who don't drink booze, ginger shot is the most invigorating thing, isn't it, Brian E Gordon? It's like, it's sort of like a tequila shot, but obviously without the tequila and without the hangover. And so it's like all the, all the woof, the, you know, the woof, the whoop, the whoop, that it sounded like it doesn't turn you into a dog. But all the whoop, whoop, woo, without any of the, uh-uh, yes. just noises But there's no blacking out

Do you know what It's so very funny My husband always teases me Because he says You just make noises Instead of words sometimes And you're somebody who speaks for a living But words noises work

Should we do This podcast just be a selection of strange noises And let's start with just some Yeah Ah Oh You know exactly what I said I hope you do

I do I can I just I just I don't need to. We don't need to speak. We could just sit here quietly for an hour. And I would know exactly what you were saying, Gabby. But I know you know what I'm thinking as well.

And I would know what you're thinking. So we've known each other quite a while now. And you are, without a doubt, one of my favourite people. And your new book is so special. It's sort of come on so much from the last one. It's more, it's even more. intimate if it can be than your other ones. Oh wow, thanks.

Does it meant, did you want to do that? I don't know. I feel like I can only write what I can write at the time. But I suppose I wanted to show that recovery isn't linear. And I suppose with all of my books, it's kind of a snapshot of where I am at that moment in time. But also, so I guess I've come, I don't know. it's really difficult. I kind of,

it came from such a place of darkness and such a place of like lacking any confidence. Everything I'd built, I felt everything I'd built up over many decades had sort of been pulled out of me. It was like a rug

had been pulled out from underneath me. And so it sort, I just, I find that when I write, when I go into the darkness, it sort of, oh, I don't know, that was,

that was, I may as, I should have just made a, like a, a, a selection. of strange sounds and that would have made more sense than what I was saying. Just to us.

No, the whole thing made total sense. I guess, I guess, you know, it's, I guess I get more, um, I feel like life gets better. The older I get and the more well I get and the more I experience, life does just get better and better, you know, so maybe I get better. So life getting better. Now, most people say that. but then there is something very odd that has so for growing up

I'm never going to be a growing up but growing older and life carrying on for you you learn things about yourself and I don't think the expression of older and wiser I don't know if there's any wiser but you learn stuff about yourself

and yet from the outside people have a different view of you as you get older and better whereas from inside you feel better. God, did that make sense? I don't think it did. That was waffle, but I don't know what I'm trying to say.

It makes sense to me, Gabby. But also, I think as I get older, so life doesn't get better and better in that it's all rainbows and unicorns and fluffy puppies and, you know, and just, oh, just brilliant thing after brilliant thing, which is how I, that's how I measured a good life when I was younger.

I was like, oh, as long as long as, as I keep hitting all of these metrics and getting these things in my life, then life will be good. Life gets better in that. I'm much more able to cope when it's, when it's bad. So I have had, you know, I realize I had this notion of happiness, which was like a destination, you know, whereas actually I realize it's a bit like, it's a bit like, I guess what, I have no idea what it must be like to be an Olympic athlete, but, you know, you go for the gold and then you've got start training all over again for the next, you know, the next thing. So, and I guess that's what I feel, I realize life is, you know, it's a kind of series of nice moments laced together with quite,

some quite tough stuff. But I'm so much better at dealing with the tough stuff, you know. How did you deal with it and how do you deal with it? So what's this sort of major difference? So I used to deal with it with alcohol and drugs. Yeah. That's the truth. So I'm in recovery. I don't, you know, I don't drink anymore. But that was the only. way I knew how to deal with bad feelings and bad and bad shit, even though it created more bad shit, you know. So that was how I, and that's probably I think how a lot of people deal with life, you know, in the UK, we kind of teach, you know, we don't really teach people. We teach, we're like, let's teach kids how to be happy, but let's not teach them how to be

sad, which is a bit of waste because we are going to be sad. And it's much better if we can sort of learn. Let's teach kids how to be happy without, teach how to, teach how to, teach kids how to be sad without like picking up a drink to kind of numb it, you know. The Friday night thing is a classic thing. Worst awful, awful week, I'll just go and get drunk. Yeah, yeah. And it's a bloody good way of numbing it. And, you know, and it got me, you know, it got, you know, it was my saviour really alcohol

because I don't think I would have been able to crawl out of my bedroom, you know, I was in such deep depressions, you know. And I say that just because I was, you know, I was a deeply, shy. I felt very other as a child and, you know, alcohol gave me the courage to get out and do things and to weather storms. You know, it worked until it stopped working, right? So that was how I used to deal with stuff and now I don't drink and I have to sit and go through the shit, which is much harder, but it does tend to pass much quicker then. That's interesting. So without the alcohol, you get through it quicker. Yeah. So like, there's a lot of,

There's a phrase, isn't there, which is like when you're going through hell, keep going. And I think I kept sort of trying to go, oh, no, I'll just take a little detour around. But then you just get stuck. You know, you're trying to take the scenic route round hell. You're just stuck in it for a hell of a lot longer. So for you now, I mean, it's interesting because you, you know, in this book, you talk about how dark you felt. And you were, and you suffer with depression. You're so open about all of the things and your OCD and menopause.

All of this is covered in the book. How do you know when you're going there? Do you know when that slide is happening? No, I don't. I don't. I'm like, this is the thing that I find so incredible with human brains is that we can know all of this stuff about mental illness, about depression, about anxiety. And yet, and we can say it to other people. Like, I can tell people to the blue in their face, like, you're doing really well.

well, you know, you're not your thoughts. You're just the person that hears them. And yet when I'm in it, it's, you know, and this is when we're in it ourselves, we're in it. So it's very difficult. And also very difficult to know that we're in it. Because, you know, for a long time, my brain was like, you're not depressed.

You're just being a dickhead. Which is... And it doesn't say that anymore. No, not at the moment, but it might do again. But it's one of... But the thing is I'm much more, you know, I recognize it a lot quicker. I may not recognize it going in, but, you know, we keep trying.

But I think that thing of depression, you know, your brain saying you're not depression, just a dickhead is in itself a really key symptom of depression. And yet, of course, when you're in it, that voice is so strong. It's very hard not to believe it. So I feel, so I don't always see, but I do, I do tend to pull myself out of it in a healthier way, I would say. and I'm much more, I'm much less, I'm less prone to shaming myself for ending up in that hole. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. That's fantastic to hear. So I, you know, you know, Mad Woman, the book is, a lot of the book is about realizing I had sort of, I got sober, I was two and a half

years sober when the pandemic began and I was just so relieved I was sober and I wasn't drinking because I thought, oh my goodness, with all these lockdowns and then the sun shining and then this weirdness. If I was still drinking, I would have just drunk myself into an early grave if I had even lived that long, right? And I was so relieved that I was sober that I kind of hadn't realized that I had fallen headfirst into this other addiction, which was food. And it took me a long time, it took me about, I don't know, 10 months to realize I had developed binge eating disorder. I didn't even know it was binge eating. I didn't even know binge eating disorder was a thing. I just thought I was binging, but because I wasn't purging and I had suffered from Bilema in my

20s that I was okay, but of course it wasn't okay. But I realized, ooh, there's another faulty coping mechanism that my brain has used to try and numb myself out. Like that binge eating disorder, like alcoholism, was a way of trying to take the scenic route around hell. I mean, and I went, oh no. And the moment I, you know, and I got help and it took a long time and it's, you know, recovery is not linear, you know, change isn't linear. It's, uh, but it, but it, but the point was I kind of I noticed it and I and I did I kind of sat down and I went through the stuff I had to go through. And yeah. So I don't know like life does get better and better. And now I'm, you know, and I can see I was thinking about this this morning because I'm training for this crazy. Yes, you're running from, you're running the Brighton marathon and then you're running from Brighton to London.

Yeah. To do the London marathon. And then I'm going to do the London Marathon and the without stopping. Oh well I'll stop and sleep and things like that No yeah no five No it's over so the Brighton marathon is two weeks before the London marathon Yeah so I'm going to over two weeks

run a little bit every day And the idea is to get Is to show people that exercises for everyone Because I'm a big I'm a larger lady Gabby You know I'm a size 18 to 20 or whatever And And and but I love exercise It's completely been transformed

for my mental health. Some of the other day was like, are you sure you haven't just cross-addicted to exercise? And I was like, no, that it's not, it's just not the same thing. I genuinely love it. But I don't love it so much that I have to get out of bed in the morning and do it.

But anyway, so I wanted to show that, you know, for me, when I started to exercise for the way it made me feel rather than the way it made me look, everything was transformed. And I'm also doing it to raise money for mental health mates, which is this incredible peer support group that I kind of accidentally set up, nearly 10 years ago, which is now...

Is it 10 years? Well, it's about 8 years, but like, let's round it up. Okay. I'm happy to round up. Almost 10 years. Almost 20 years. It's almost 100 years since I set up mental health rates. God, you look good on the exercise.

Wow. Mental health rates, so it's in 150 cities around the UK. And it's put, you know, simply, it's a way for people with mental health issues to get outside and some fresh air and move. You don't have to run. It's walks. But with other people, it's put, you know, people who get it who have gone who are going through or have gone through the same thing because

we know exercise is good for your head and we know getting out of your head in that is one of the best way in nature is one of the best ways to do it so people all over the country run mental health makes walks and I want to kind of support them by raising money but so yes anyway I've had I've gone through getting back to the point I can tell this we're going to do a lot of diversions all the time so sorry so yeah I have got I've been training for quite some time And the last two weeks have been really hard, probably because I've got a book out. I've had a book out as well,

and I've been like hitting the promo trail hard. So I'm like I'm like Taylor Swift or something. But yet also trying to train. And I've been a bit injured. And it's been like really dark. And there have been times where I've thought, I'm not going to be able to do this. What's your injury?

Apart from, so I want to ask you about your heart as well. But have you got injuries on top of that? What have you done? It was nothing big. Like a slightly pool. abductor which is but I I was like

oh no and I've had to take some time off and it was really dark and then yesterday I went and ran 10 miles just like that and that's good listen just listen to yourself how how okay and I don't obviously it sounds like I mean literal but you just oh I ran 10 miles

I ran 10 miles yesterday that's not nothing and then I felt no of course it was but I felt quite creaky afterwards and the small morning I woke up and I had to run again, according to my training plan. And I thought, I can't do it. And then I went, you can do it, Briney. Even if you have to just walk, you can do it. And I got up and I was flying. I literally thought, oh my God, I'm like Mo Fara. I probably didn't look like that, but I don't care because I felt like it. And I got back and I was high as a kite. And I kind of was like, oh, you had to go through that little dark glitch to, you know, a little bit of an injury. And then you rest and you recover and you feel.

better and you're like so relieved that you're literally jumping and um you know that's what life's a bit like you have to go through these dark things and then there's a point where you sit there and go oh i get what that was about but a lot of people i mean yeah i'm doing as much work as i possibly can at the moment about loneliness um we need to do something about tackling loneliness it's epidemic proportions and the rates of suicide are going up in young people due to loneliness and it's this taboo, but a lot of people still don't like to say that they've got problems in their head.

A lot of people don't like to say I'm lonely. A lot of people don't want to say I'm shy. I mean, you and I have talked about shyness endlessly because I was that painfully shy teenager and I still get moments of excruciating shyness and I'm very open about it.

But people feel that no matter any of these things, you still shouldn't talk about it. And you've worked so hard and your books are fantastic and there are a lot of people who are being outspoken and talking about these things and yet we're still being judged too much everyone is hypercritical oh yeah but society is hypercritical and i think i the place i've come to on that is that if someone's judging you it says more about them than it does about you absolutely so because i now realize when if i start to judge someone i absolutely have to pull back and go what is it in this person that is

triggering me because it's not about them. It's solely about me. Because actually, it's not of my bloody business what anyone else does. You know? And I see this when I write pieces and there are people go into the comments and go and they just

start abusing you and saying this is driveled. And I thought, why don't you go and read something? Why? Why are you spending your time getting this head up about something you don't like when this is a news website with literally thousands of other pieces that you could read.

You think it's purely, I mean, I think it's about them, but it's, so Madonna, you think, look at Madonna, everybody has an opinion on Madonna, how she looks. Let's just put it down to that. It's none of our business. No. I had this conversation with somebody this weekend who was spouting about Madonna. And I said, does it matter?

She's, Madonna, it doesn't matter. And if somebody down the street did that, It doesn't matter. Would you go up to them and say something? Well, no, but she shouldn't have... No, why shouldn't she? Why? Why do you think that she shouldn't?

Exactly. Because that's the question. And it's always triggering something in another person. That's the issue. And sadly, people don't, they don't realize it. So, yeah, but we do live in a judgey society. But I do think when it comes to mental health issues, actually the people who are the most judgmental are ourselves,

on ourselves, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. Because I think one of the... you know, I always think the thing about mental illness that all mental illness is have in common is that they work by lying to you and they tell you that you're a freak and they tell you that you're alone and they tell you that no one's going to understand what you're going through and that's just bollocks, you know, but it's a very difficult thing not to believe when you're in it. And so one of the symptoms of most mental illness is that is stigmatising themselves.

They almost tell you that you don't have them. Did you tell yourself you didn't have it? I definitely went to this place of like, you've spoken about your mental illness, Bryny. You've written books about it. You've been really honest about it. So this can't be happening to you now. Like enough. We've had enough of hearing about your mental health issues.

And I remember someone saying to me, oh, the thing about mental health issues is they're not like mobile data. There's not a cap on them. You know, and I was like, oh, yeah. I like that. Yeah. And, you know, sometimes we have to recover from something more than once before we're properly healed, you know. So, yeah, I definitely had that sort of, oh, this isn't, I want to present this kind of, I think we want to have, you know, we need neat narratives, don't we in life? We want things to have happy beginnings and middles and ends and someone to kind of face their deal.

and triumph over adversity and walk off into the sunset and live happily ever after. Life isn't a movie. No, life is tragically not a movie. And so that's what I'm trying to do in my books is go, oh, you know, it's a bit messy. It's a bit, you know, back and forth, but it's okay. Like, if this is you, it's okay. Do you feel the weight of responsibility on your shoulders, though, as well? Because you do help an incredible amount of people.

No, not anymore. I did. But I, I realised my job is literally just, you put, I put down, I talk to myself, this is what I say to myself is like, Briny, you put down what you've gone through on paper, do you know what I mean? And you be honest about that. And that is, that is your only job, you know, and then, and then try and signpost to places where people can, you know, find help if they've gone through that.

My job is to say, I feel like what I do is I'm like, I'm going to write. this book because I've heard other people have these things that I have, but no one really talks to me about them or admits to it. So if I write this book, why don't we all congregate around this book if you've got this thing instead of staying at home by ourselves thinking we're freaks and we can realize together congregating around this book that we're not freaks, you know, we're not, we're not mad or we are mad but we're not bad. That's basically my job. And then after that, it's not, you know, like I'm not, I'm not saving people's lives here, do you know, people save their own life?

You know, people do it themselves. Yeah, but you're helping people to do it for themselves. Yeah, but there are things that I read over the years that helped me and nudged me, you know, but there's lots of things. There's lots of things in, you know, there's lots of reasons people kind of choose to get well instead of, you know, tragic other options. And we're not in control. I'm not, I can't control.

anything. I can't even really control myself as my books have shown time and time again, you know. So I kind of, yeah, I try, I try to kind of right size that a bit. It's important I do because otherwise the OCD comes in and it's like, you're harming people with what you do. No, no, no, no. But that's where I have to be quite careful. I'm just telling my story and if it helps you great. And it's fantastic that you've helped so many people. And the doubters and the people who don't want to say, as you say, it's about them. It's not about what you've done. When you started writing all those years ago, did you ever think you would get to, did you ever see further than each moment?

So you never did. No, no. There was no plan. There was no plan. But you wanted to write. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I didn't know that I wanted to write, you know, I loved, you know, journalism.

I was fascinated in newspapers and stuff like that. But there was certainly no plan to write about mental illness. I mean, I don't think I was even aware I had mental illness until quite a long time into my career. You know what I mean? Again, I just thought I was a freak, you know, and wrong and faulty. I didn't. It's so awful that you feel. like that, that anyone feels

like that. I don't mean you, do you? I just think it's, it's just so sad, to put it into simple terms, it's very sad that anybody would sit there on their own and say, I'm a freak, I'm not good, nobody likes me. But I don't think it's even that, like, conscious. You know, I think these are things that

just run around in people's heads all day without them even realising they are. Does that make sense? Yeah. You know, like, I wasn't sitting at home going, God, I'm a freak and I'm a, da-da-da-da, you know, I was just like, oh, you know, feeling just... You had a, it was a feeling, It was a feeling.

Yeah. It's not a conversation you're necessarily having with yourself. I think now I am, you know, in a way, life is just this kind of journey of becoming more conscious of that feeling and sort of going, well, feelings aren't facts. Or what's the threat? You know, it's okay, you know, and stepping back from it. But it's okay to feel. I mean, that's another thing that we all, as you said, we're not taught that you can be sad. I think in schools, and I think they're getting closer to that now, maybe, hopefully, in some schools, but you can feel.

You are allowed to feel. Feeling's not failings. Yeah. But also I think we've had this notion of we want to protect our children from mental health stuff. We want to protect our children from feeling bad. And that's just not helpful. It's not helpful. You cannot protect your child from feeling bad.

You can't. But it's that thing about falling over, it's the same thing. Yeah. If your child falls over, oh no, they've fallen. They've got to. Okay, they've fallen over. They're going to get off. Yeah.

They are going to. That's the thing. And I think that's where still, and I can totally get it, parents think, oh, my child is, you know, lots of people come to me and go, my child has OCD. I just feel terrible. And you want to go, you know, you're getting help for it now for the child. Like, that's brilliant. So this hopefully won't get baked in over.

many years as it did with me. And it's okay. Like brains misfire like any other organ, you know. But also I think that I've come to the place where I really think that mental health issues are kind of your brain's very sophisticated, clever way of telling you that something isn't right in your environment. And, you know, for a kid, that doesn't have to be that your parents are, you know, abusing, you know, or, you know, something terrible. it could just be stress of going to secondary school. You know, that's a big deal, you know, coupled with hormones all over the place. And exams, too many exams.

Yeah, that's a whole other story. You know, that's, and your child is sensitive and they, you know, and that's okay. You know, instead of going, I want you to be this way, it's like, no, you have a child that's that way. And that's okay. And it's not a failing and it's not very, it's not nice to have OCD. You know, it's not nice. but these are sort of weird brain glitches that affect people in the same way people get, I don't know.

But it's their story. This is part of their story. A dear friend of mine who you also know, but a dear friend of mine once said years ago, you can't think they were talking about their child and they were saying something their child was doing. I said, oh, that's incredible. They said, yeah, this is their story.

This is part of their life. I'm not going to go and I'm going to help and I'm going to guide and I'll get help for them. but this is their story and it was just such a wonderful way of looking at it. Well, because I do think we tend to think of parenting as like

you know, we talk about mini mini-meet. Oh, I can't bear that. You know, that sort of tiger parenting of wanting the best for them when really a lot of the time it's actually what, you know, children as sort of extensions of yourself.

I don't know. Like I wouldn't say that sounds quite judgy in itself, but you know, sometimes you have to question, like, well, you know, obviously, is it for you or for the child? Yeah. Or is it, is this really helping the child? Or is there just some expectation that society has put on us that we think the child should do? And like, I see my job as a, as a parent isn't to kind of like, guide my daughter to Harvard University or, you know, I don't know, you know, to sort of this, you know, this kind of or to become a doctor or a nuclear physicist or. whatever, my journey, my job as a parent is to kind of be there alongside her and hold her through all of the things and give her advice. She won't listen to. No, of course she won't. She's a girl. You're a mom. And tell her, you know, and it's my job to tell her when I think she's behaving in a way that is going to harm her out there, do you know what I mean? But I can't, you know, it's not,

I don't know, it's, it's, she's only little, you wait for teenage years. No, I mean, she's, listen, She's about to be 11. Yeah. So it's just about to head in there. It's the tween age. Yeah. So like her hormones are on the up, while mine are on the down and my husband's in the between going,

oh my God. Yeah. They're welcome to my world. Yeah, exactly. When the girls were both teenagers and I was reaching menopause, it was, you can imagine it was like, what is going on in the house? But actually, do you know, the lovely thing is they come back again.

So they go through those years and they come back again. I love, like, I love, seeing my daughter, you know, you can really see the last year of primary school, the kids that are starting to kind of, they're a bit cool and they've got phones and my daughter doesn't have a phone and I won't have a phone until she, I don't know. She's 87. Yeah, yeah, basically. But she's, and she had, so there's some that are really cool and they're like, oh yeah, boys or, you know, whatever. And then there's others, and this weekend she had two friends to come and stay for sleepover and it was so adorable. They were playing like hide and seek.

Good. I love that. I was just so delighted to see these 10 year olds who are kind of on the brink of well they're going to go to secondary school this year. It was so adorable. So she was six, seven

at the beginning of the pandemic. So you talk about the pandemic and you mentioned it already and you will talk about the book but also for your daughter. I mean that time for anybody with mental health issues, it exacerbated everything. It did, but the problem...

There was a comfort in it as well, wasn't it? Well, I think the interesting thing was, was, yes, it exacerbated everything. But because we were dealing with, you know, a terrible, terrible illness that, you know, there were people lying face down in intensive care units, you know, and it was, I think it was kind of almost catnip for that thing. that sort of reflex of depression or whatever to go, do you think you've got problems? Like, you know, you're not, you know,

it was like you've got your health. So, you know, you've got your physical health. So just shut up and stop moaning. And I did a lot of like gaslighting myself, you know? Really? Yeah, yeah. I remember just feeling, I beating myself up because I didn't, I wasn't enjoying being locked in my house.

all day. And I wanted, and I was like, why can't you just do this thing? Like, all you're doing is being asked to sit on your sofa and watch Anton Dex Saturday night take away. Like, this is not the fucking blitz, Brini. That was my brain. Like, and you'd go on Twitter or whatever, and people would be kind of, and people I really respected would be shaming someone who had sat, they'd seen sitting down on a bench or runners and how selfish they were and how this was a, and I was like, oh, I'm selfish. I'm a thoughtless person. because I'm thinking about my mental health or how sad I am or how anxious I am

and there are people out there dying like fucking buck up briny. So I think there was a lot, probably a lot of that for people. There was also, I think a lot of people, I initially, when the lockdowns were announced, I was quite relieved because A, I was like, I told you the world was ending. I've been telling you this since I was 12.

now you can see but also because I could get off the rat you know get off the hamster wheel of life. I know a lot of people who felt that yeah but I now don't have to fight anymore but I realize that a bit of me that was really relieved was kind of all my

mental like the Jarrah the Goblin King as I call all my sort of OCD and alcoholism and you know because it was like we can get you isolated at home and all those things that you think you hate doing like having to get the train or the or whatever or going to meetings in town or small talk at the school gates and you're like,

oh, God, these just drive me up the wall and you're like, no, these are the things that actually anchor you in your day and keep you sane. Because you do these little tiny hard things every day that you think you can't and you don't want to do, but you're like, okay, I'm going to do it. And then you get home at the end of the day and go, I did look, I can do hard things, even if that hard thing, you know, that hard thing might not be climbing Everest. But to me sometimes, having to make small talk at the school gate is like climbing Everest, you know, or pushing myself out and turning up all of the appointments I have in my diary for that day. Like for me, every day I wake up and my brain is like, nope, nope, do not want to do today.

How can we get out of everything today? How can we do it? Let's just hide here in terror, right? And I have to circumvent that as quickly as possible. But sometimes to do that, and I think this is, you know, this is the thing of, I have to put on like hundreds of masks just to get myself up and out of the house. You know, and I think that's, that's the kind of person I'm writing these books for is we have this notion of mental illness as someone like rocking back and forth in a padded cell. And it is that, you know, but it isn't just that.

And these books are for the people who every day have to get up. They don't fucking want to, but they have to, you know. and like plaster on a smile, pretend everything is fine, you know, and hold it together, because if they don't hold it together, everything is falling apart. Do you know what I mean?

Absolutely. And if they do, you know, so, yeah. That's why I'm going back to you, do help a lot of people. And that's why I'm pleased when you said you don't feel that weight on your shoulders because you do. And you also have a lot of people's ears.

I mean, we've got mutual friends that we won't name, but you have a lot of people's ears. And that must be a wonderful thing. A really wonderful thing to know that these people trust you. Trust is such a beautiful thing for somebody to hand over. Yeah, I think there are people that I have built. Yeah, I certainly, as a journalist, you know, I still write. for a newspaper and I've realized in life,

I realized I was like, I don't want to be getting stories from people by having to kind of screw them over. That's how I... Hallelujah. And I, very early on, had that sort of don't want to do this. When I was like 21, I had a brief time working at the mirror as a 3am girl and I hated it and I quit after three months.

And I was like, if this is what I have to do to be a journalist, I don't want to be a journalist. And I... They have a bad rap. You know, they really do, journalists. Yeah, no, they do, but they don't, you know, like, there's a lot of really very good journalists. And I think that I really came into my own in journalism after, you know, a couple of decades, when I started talking about my own stuff and people trusted me enough to be able to talk, tell me about their stuff. And they knew, they told me more because they knew,

I wasn't going to like use that information against them, you know. That's what I mean. It's a wonderful, I hope you keep that close to your heart. That these people trust you and you don't discuss what they say to you and you don't put it in print and what you do write about them is honest but warm. And you have a real power of writing so warmly about people and caring and that is that's such a gift. Thanks Gabby. But I hope you carry that with you. I hope you know that. I do sometimes but sometimes

you know the voice is going nah rat rat, yeah, rabbit. That's just another like barrage of sounds there. Yeah. But yeah, I do. I do. But it's, you know, all of these industries that we work in are quite cut throat, right? And I don't know. The older I get, the more I'm like, I don't want to how do I say this? Like I don't want to have to judge my war worth as a human being by your metrics or by how many celebs I've got

to open up to me about like dark things in their lives. Like if it happens that's a, you know, because they want to talk about stuff to help people on a wider campaigning basis. That's great. but I'm very aware that I'm, you know, I'm as good as my latest, you know, like I like to think that people really care in this industry about mental health campaigning and all of this stuff. But I know they only care about it as long as it's making the money. Does that make sense?

And so like I've realised that over the last 10 years when I've been writing about mental illness. So I don't like You know So I'm a bit like I'm not your fair weather friend here This is really important shit But if you And I'll play the game a bit

And do you know what I mean But if you Not you Gabby But if like I don't know I sometimes think to myself How much do I want to be part of this Yeah

This kind of like I think I'm not sure if I'm making any sense here No you are I know, will I get you? But I think we are all coming to the realization that a lot of this sort of rise in mental illness or unhappiness or whatever you want to call it. And we talk a lot about lack of mental health provision on the NHS.

And I've sort of come to the conclusion that it wouldn't matter. I mean, the government, you know, don't give a shit about mental health. provision. They've shown that very clearly by throwing out the changes to the mental health reform reform to the Mental Health Act in the last, anyway, I'm babbling, but you know, they just didn't bother with it, even though they said they would. But I'm also now of the opinion that I think to myself, oh, you know, they could turn around tomorrow and say, we're going to give 10 billion quid just to mental health services in the NHS. And I don't know that it would make a difference because it doesn't matter how much money you give, like, you pump into, because it's, it's, you know, it's

into a system. It's the system itself that is the problem, you know. It's the way we live our lives and the things that we prioritize and are taught that we should prioritize. You know, I saw this today. I was, there's a, you know, a big, the, probably the biggest newspaper in the country, and their front page was something like Generation Sick Note. And it was about how many young people are not working because of mental ill health and how now people prioritise their mental health over the economy? And I read it and thought, well, I mean, do you know what I mean? Like, maybe that's a good thing. You know, it's not necessarily a bad thing. I saw the headline myself and it was the lead story on the news today. Yeah. And so I think lots of people are going, oh, you know,

I could, I could throw myself into this. I can keep going. I can keep going. and I can. So yeah, I don't, I mean, I've gone off on one now, but I, but that's what we love about you, Brianie, that you do and that you speak your mind and that it's, it's a, you're a rare beast. Most people don't do that because they are terrified of how they'll be perceived. Now, interestingly, you want to be perceived, you know, just as you and I have spoken, away from here as well, we don't want, we, you know, you want, everybody wants to be liked. Of course. Of course. Of course. But you say those things that so many other people wish they could.

I think a long time ago I said to you that you're like, you're like everybody's dream ventriloquist dummy because you say all the things that without us putting our hand up your back, that you say those things that people wish they could say because there are lots of people out there. When they read your books, they'll say, that's me, that's me. But that's why I write the books, Because I'm like, because for some weird reason, Gabby, I don't feel any shame writing this stuff down.

In fact, I shed my shame writing this stuff down, right? And so for that reason, I'm like, I feel like it's my duty to write about this stuff because I know there are people out there who do feel shame but have gone through exactly the same things as me. And so once I'm out the other side, I'm like, oh my God, the thought of one woman sitting alone right now feeling like a freak. I'm like, I can't bear it. You know, like, that's what... That's what we're using for our Instagram type. That's it, because every woman,

and in fact, every man is just going to go, yes, because it's, you know, these books are for men as well. But it's also... It's such a waste of our energy, isn't it? Our precious energy. Like, I think to myself about, like, our darling Debs, you know, who died nearly... Nearly two years ago now.

And I think to myself, I do think quite often, maybe I should get this like tattooed on me. Like what would Debs do? Debs would not, you know, like fucking hell. Like the energy that we waste or that society expects us to waste, hating on ourselves, you know, is tragic because life is short. Life is short and it's not a fucking dress rehearsal.

No, it really isn't. And life is so precious. And recently I went for a walk with another mutual friend. And went for a walk. And I just started dancing. And this woman came up to me. She said, can I dance with you? So we danced together.

She said, put it on your social. Put it on your socials. And she said to me afterwards that she was very ill and she didn't have long to live and she really wanted to do it. And so I just talked to her. She said, oh, you didn't do the sideways head tilt. And I said, no, you're alive.

She went, yes, I'm alive. I'm not dying. I'm alive right now. I'm alive. And it was heartbreaking. Of course, I said to her, that's heartbreaking. But how wonderful. for your living.

Yeah. And that's how, that's how Deb's was. It was, right now, she used always, as you know, never said I'm terminally ill.

No. I, there I am. Today I'm alive. So I'm going to do that. And I wish we, we could, I mean, I shout from the rooftops

about that. I really do. And I will shout from the rooftops until the day I die. That we are so lucky and we've got to make the most of each moment.

Because, as you say, this is not a dress rehearsal. It's not a dresser hustle. And, you know, I think about Debs and how, like, right to the end, so kind. And I remember, yeah, that I was having a terrible, you know, what I've written about in there, about, you know, episode of OCD. And at the beginning of 2022. And, I mean, she was, you know, she was, you know, she's. We're talking about Baob, by the way.

Yeah. And, but, like, that thing of, I remember I was, I was stuck on the sofa because I was like, I can't remove my. I'm the worst person in the world and she was stuck on the sofa because she was dying of bowel cancer, you know, but I just always remember texting each other

and sending us pictures, sending each other's like pictures of what we were looking at from our sofa and all of that thing and how, how wonderful she was and how understanding and thoughtful. And, you know,

I feel so lucky, I feel so lucky because of her, you know, and like, I feel so lucky to have got to be part of her life, you know. She did,

She was an extraordinary, extraordinary woman. And she made a massive difference because now everybody talks about bowel cancer. Because of you, people talk about mental health. Because of, you know, the more that people talk about these things, they, you know, that you take the taboo away. Yeah, I always remember, I always remember that when she'd launched the Balbaid fund, you know, which I was just incredible, you know, the amount of money that she, raised. Oh my God. But I always remember

had the Today program on and I remember hearing Nick Robinson saying, and now we, you know, we need to check our poo. And I thought, yes, day. So true. Years ago when my dad had bowel cancer, they interviewed it. It's 28 years ago. And they interviewed him on the ITV news and me. They interviewed two because dad wanted everybody to talk about it. And so they interviewed us. And so dad said, poo. bottom and bum and all that and they said can you actually talk about it without mentioning bowel

or poo or everything and my dad just looked at them and said no it's about your poo and they said no no sorry you're you're a you're a newsreader you know that we can't use that word so my dad just poo poo poo poo bum bum bum bum and did they allow it on no no they did they just they changed the thing to bowel cancer colon cancer that was it because they but that's how it's changed look deb's made Everybody now talks about their poo. Yeah. Yeah. She's going to be laughing now going,

I cannot believe. You're saying, yeah, because of me, everyone's talking about poo. Everyone's going to say bum and poo. Yeah. Good for you, Deb. Oh, we miss you. Amazing lady.

Thank you for being on this. Congratulations on the next book because you will be doing another one. Oh, yeah. No, I'm saying congratulations because you can't, you actually can't stop doing these. And also, Mad Woman is, they all follow

it's a weird thing to say this is really weird okay I'm going to say but they follow on so beautifully from from each other and I feel like we all get to know you a bit more but get to know ourselves a bit more

oh thank you so you very kindly sent me a copy I've now given it to four of my friends oh wow no no I have and a friend of mine who's going through lots of stuff and I gave it to her and then she talked about it so I bought it for three others

and one of them her husband said it's been the most fantastic guide for him to know about her. Really? Yeah. I just, do you know what? It's so beautiful. Obviously, it doesn't make me happy to know other people have gone through what I've gone through. But it makes me feel I look back and I want to take Briney two or three years ago and go, look, you see, see? like other people are going through this stuff

and this will be worth it one day because you'll write about it and it will help other people and you know you'll turn the dark into light babes so don't just hold on hang on in there because you don't know what is around the corner and it's true you bring the light

you bring the light no you bring the light no you bring the light now you do no you do Brianie