That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Charlie Mackesy ‘The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse’

Episode Date: December 21, 2020

Charlie Mackesy’s hugely influential book ‘The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse’ was one of the best-selling books during lockdown. Gaby and Charlie talk about his classes with children discussing ways to keep imaginations alive into adulthood and helping people with Alzheimers to draw. He talks profoundly about how kindness can save a life and tells an extraordinary story of when he met The Queen Mother. Also, his social enterprise in Zambia called Mama Buci which provides villages with beehives and the skills to produce honey. He talks about working on a film adaptation of his book and the new audiobook, available now with a beautiful music score and real wildlife sounds. Audio clips courtesy of ‘The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse’ by Charlie Mackesy published by Ebury Press (Hardback, £16.99) available in audio, written and read by Charlie Mackesy (Penguin Audio, £9.00).   Produced by Cameo Productions, music by Beth Macari.  Join the conversation on Instagram and Twitter @gabyroslin #thatgabyroslinpodcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of the podcast. I cannot tell you what a huge thrill it was for me to chat to somebody who I truly find inspiring, incredible, warm, thoughtful. And of course it's Charlie Macassie, the hugely influential writer and artist who wrote The Boy, The Mole, the Fox and the Horse. It's one of the biggest selling books of all time. Throughout lockdown, people turned to this book. They opened it up and his words gave us so much comfort.

When we asked if he'd like to do this podcast, we were all rather thrilled when he said yes because he doesn't do many interviews and he chose this podcast to do. He discussed with me about working with young people, about working with people with Alzheimer's. He also talks about kindness like nobody else I've ever spoken to before. He talked about the inspiration behind his hugely popular characters. Yes, the boy, the mole, the fox and the horse. We also talk about his new audiobook, which when I listened to it, I was transported to another world.

The official audiobook is available now. He's the most remarkable person. I hope you enjoy listening to this as much as I enjoyed talking to him. In many ways, I think Charlie has changed everyone's perceptions on life. Charlie, I have wanted to chat to you for such a long time, and I just want to say thank you for a book that has helped all of us, really, and for your lovely Instagram world, and for the t-shirt at the time I'm now wearing for the WWF, with the elephant, my favourite animal. Yes, the elephant. Thank you. Didn't you live in and painted in Africa for a while as well? Yeah, I've lived in South Africa and Southern Africa. And I've got it, I actually bizarrely run a social enterprise in Zambia.

So how did all that start, the connection with Africa? I think ever since I read a Wilbur Smith book when I was 17, I always wanted to go. So I just travelled through and then I got a very old train down to Botswana and stayed there for quite a long time. I stayed in quite remote villages, mudhut villages and stuff. I'd never really seen poverty and suffering in such concentrated forms anywhere in my life. Obviously, I'd lived quite a sheltered life. I think the sort of beauty of the people and the resilience of them really moved me a lot. When I was first there, I'm thinking if I ever get the chance to do something in Zambia,

Zimbabwe that I can help set up, that would alleviate a little bit of the situation that I would. And so we did in the end. We make a million jars of honey a year. Can we buy them? Do they get shipped over here? Yeah, you can buy it. It's online. Yeah, it's called Mamabuchi.

Mama M-A-B-U-C-I. And basically all we did was just we recognize it in the copper belt of Zambia. There's the bee, the killer bees anyway, at least, are incredible. And the honey-making potential is huge, but no one was really doing it. And so we basically give hives to villages and families. Then the villages, that each village has their own teacher who will teach people how to be a beekeeper. And then we then harvest the honey from them, pay them for the honey and sell it on. So we're just social-enterised.

We began with very few families. We've now got, I think, around 8,000 families making honey. Oh, goodness me. Yeah, I mean, it's been a lovely thing to be involved in, and the honey is delicious. I eat too much of it. You're allowed to? I don't know. My doctor doesn't think I'm allowed to. Okay, just a little bit. Every day, a little bit won't do you anymore. Yeah, in my tea. Yeah, exactly.

Now, actually, talking of tea, I read that you said that your favourite thing on the planet, your ideal day, is drinking tea and drawing. Yeah, it probably is. I mean, it's interesting, the tea thing I love. The drawing thing, I think drawing has always been a calm place for me to go to everything since I was little actually, was a sort of sanctuary. If I go, if I can start drawing, I sort of go into a different space in my head. It's a world that I can enter that is very peaceful. And it's quite an addiction, you know. You have to be really careful when something you love to do changes gear like this has recently for me and I have to work quite hard at, you know, not letting the demands of it affect how I feel when I do it. You have to protect it.

And have you done that? Do you still love it as much as you always have done? Yeah, I think so. I think there'll have to be times when I turn off my phone and just go back to the love of it. What has been amazing is the feeling that I can make these drawings that can affect people's lives or give them a bit of comfort or hope or, you know, strength. That in and of itself, knowing that that can happen.

when I do it is an amazing feeling. But it also comes with a certain kind of sense that, oh gosh, you know, I hope this works. And, you know, whereas before, I think you can just do it for the love of it. And now it has a certain weight, if that makes sense. It does completely. Do you feel that you have a responsibility then to everybody to keep producing life-changing, life-helping, life-assisting drawings?

Or are you ever able just to do it just for you as you used to? I can do both. Like I painted on a big barn door. I did a big painting on a barn door this morning. Just made a big mess and enjoyed it. There was no sense in me that, oh gosh, who will see this? Or I do lots of drawings for friends, actually, scribbles and on postcards and things. And that's always fun.

I mean, it's been a massive privilege as well. I would sort of feel that, you know, when I hear that. the responses from the book. It's quite overwhelming, really, to hear what they say, you know, that it's helped them connect with people who are dying or their families, they've brought families together, or it's helped people who've been in the depths of despair or who've been suicidal or all these things, you know,

such a privilege and such a surprise, and I really have no idea how it happened. And if someone had said to me five years ago, right, you've got to make these drawings that do X, Y and Z. I would have just said, well, I can't. I wouldn't know how to do that. But it must have been in you. There's a wonderful TED talk that you did that I was watching yesterday

that I was blown away by where you were at a school. And you were talking about don't lose your imagination. Because children have this extraordinary, non-judgmental, and they have this imagination, and it can be anything. And I mean, I'm still a bit like that. I have to say as an adult, and sometimes I know I should keep my feet on the ground, but I don't want to. But imagination is so valuable.

You must have always had that and not let it go as well. I think there was a moment when I was about, I mean, my sort of upbringing was very rural and lovely. And then I went to a boarding school. When I was seven, which I found difficult. And I remember there was a really terrifying Latin teacher who really didn't like me much. He was going for me one morning.

And I remember looking at him. and I imagined him wearing a pink sort of weird jumpsuit with wings. And I remember as he was roasting your love, I remember thinking, I can imagine anything I want and you can't see it. You have no access or control of how I imagine things to be. Yes. And it was this absolute joy suddenly.

I couldn't even hear what he was saying. You know, it was, I just was loving the fact that I could imagine anything and I couldn't get into trouble for it. And it became a sort of, you know, a place of joy to me and a liberation that my imagination was infinite, you know. I love doing seminars with kids. I said to them, do you think your imagination will be this wild and active when you're an adult? And they all said, no.

And I said, would you like to keep imagination as wild and active it is now? And they all said, yes. And I said, why do you think it goes? They just said, well, because our parents don't seem to have much of an imagination. imagination anymore. Oh, that's so just that's the bit that got to me. I mean, it really did. Yeah. Yeah. It was a real shock to me. It was it wasn't said in a way that was sort of what you might expect in a way there was kind of oh well, silly old, but it was it was said with a sadness and a sort of you know, and they another boy said, well, they need films, don't they? That's why they watch films

because they can't imagine it themselves. And so we, you, you pay, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, people to imagine for you. And so I said to them, you know, how do you think we can keep it? So we talked for like, it was a double lesson. I remember we just went on and on about ways in which, you know, we can try to protect and nurture the imagination. It was really phenomenal. Where does it go? Where's that moment that imagination stops? And as I said, you know, I know lots of grown-ups who still have that. Yeah, of course. But for lots of people, where does it go? I mean, it probably goes into the subconscious, which is why we dream. Although I think dreams are largely fear-based, I think.

But I think it's still there. I just don't think we access it. And I think life becomes more objective and we have to deal with real things and make real decisions. And we don't have time to imagine too much. Unless we're on holiday and we listen to music, we're lying on a beach. I don't think they ever die. I just think we don't really give them space. The other end of it, so you work with kids, but I know you also work with people.

people with Alzheimer's. And it's as if that imagination comes back because they enter their own world. And you'd look teaching and working with them and drawing with very elderly people and ill people and people with Alzheimer's. That must be as equally extraordinary for all the same powerful reasons. That's been a really remarkable experience to me. I almost see human life as if it's allowed to carry on until, you know, an older age, is you get the first 10 years, which is rich with imagination, then you get the last maybe 10 years where I don't know quite what happens. But yeah, so I remember when I first started teaching them, the class of sort of 15, you know,

most of them had been told when they were young that they couldn't draw or they were in that school and around at age eight or nine, unless they were very good. They were said, oh, well, you're not very good. So they stopped and so it was trying to tell them that it didn't really matter what it looked like. It just matters how it feels and it doesn't have to look like anything good. You just have to enjoy it and connect with what you feel and it can imagine. And it took a long time. There's one lady I remember it took a year for her to make every day she would do a line that was about an inch long and absolutely straight.

And she would keep looking and you going, is this messy? And I'd say, no, it's great. Is it messy? No, it's really great. try a bit more. And then by the end of it, she discovered that she was allowed to make the marks and they were great, whatever they were. And she would cry as she made these child like marks again. But her whole life, you know, had been spent trying not to make a mess, trying to work within the lines, trying to be all these things. And I think that the act of drawing and encouraging people just to be

themselves on paper and to know that we could throw it away at the end of the session, make 10 drawings, and throw them all away. No one's going to judge them. No one's going to mind what they look like. You don't have to criticize yourself. Just enjoy it. And be four years old again. And it did take quite a while.

Like my group took, I'd say, two months. And then suddenly, you know, we put the music on. And there was no stopping them. And it was just carnage of lines and colors and mess and laughter and conversations and tears. And, you know, it was a journey that I was really privileged to be on with them. Crabs even have died since, but it was something I'll never forget to see that journey from and into the imagination.

You know, they would start imagining things again. And I'd ask them what this was. And they'd say, oh, well, that's just me riding an elephant, you know, or something. And she'd laugh or they'd laugh. Yeah, so it's interesting. Children and the elderly are quite similar in many ways, I think. But also not to be judging, nobody to mock it. I went to a sort of school that didn't mark you when you were younger.

So you never got a mark. You just were allowed to express. And I thank my parents so deeply for sending me there. Because to be told that you're not any good at drawing or you're not any good at singing when a child who just wants to sing. And then somebody says, oh, no, that's out of tune. No, just let them be free. And whatever age, I wish nobody was marked. It's just a personal thing.

I know that's not a real world, but I wish there wasn't a grade for anybody. Well, I agree. You know, and I did, when I was working at school, I sort of think you should have an amnesty every so often where there are no grades and no marking. And especially in the arts where you just say, okay, well, just do it. And there is no right or wrong, good or bad. You should everybody, every school should absolutely have that. There's another lovely story that I read, that you were drawing in the street

and a woman spotted you drawing in the street and that she wasn't particularly polite to you? It wasn't that she wasn't polite to me. I mean, I spent four or five years sitting on streets doing drawings of London, but I encountered all kinds of, you know, people would come up to me every day and so stuff. That lady in particular, she, what was, it made me laugh,

because she brought her two children over to look at the drawing. They stood there for quite a while and then walked off, and she just said to them, that's what will happen to you if you don't do you, homework. Oh no. Which I found actually very funny. Maybe she was right. You know, maybe I hadn't done my homework. But I, yeah, so it didn't matter to me. I know, but it's a great story. And it's, it's, what's so interesting is because, and I'll use

the word again and again and again while we chat, but I am absolutely of the belief and I was brought up to believe that kindness is the key. And that word has taken on a whole, I don't, It seems to have another life again. People are using the word kind, and I think they're using it for all the right reasons. I really do believe that. I hope so. And you are a great reason that people are using that word again,

but I just wondered, I know it's a bit of a deep question, because somebody asked me this the other day, but what does kind mean to you? Well, that's a huge question. And, you know, it can mean all manner of things to all of us. I think for me it's a cake with various ingredients. It means generous. It means non-judgmental. It means empathy. It means tenderness. It means sitting alongside, holding hand, listening, loving. There are so many sides to kindness. There are simple kindness.

There are also the more complex ones where you know someone very deeply. And so you can do something that only they would understand. And it can be tiny. I think this idea that, I think kind is a great word because it doesn't wasn't, it's not too grandiose. It can be very small. Simple acts of kindness can change your life. And I actually, I remember when I was, it's going to sound quite odd, but I remember reading somewhere or someone years ago,

a girl who was a latchkey kid, if you like, who didn't, would take herself to school. And then I think she was like 15, had depression. And I think one particular day, she decided to take her life when she got back home. and the art teacher was a very kind guy and he stopped when she was doing a drawing she decided that would be her last day last lesson he looked at her drawing and just

stood by her and just if I don't know whether this is even PC now or right or but he just put his hand on her shoulder and said that's great Jane you're doing so well well done and then I think he said don't give up something very small like that and it changed her world and she was walking home and decided that was enough for her to give life another try. She years later had children at the same school and the art teacher had retired was there on that parent's day and she went up to him and she said, do you remember me? And he said, yes, I think I do. He said, well, you know, you may or may not, but I'll always remember you and I just want to say thank you for what you did that day. And of course, he couldn't remember it. And he had no recollection of

just that small, quiet, encouraging line. But she said, he saved my life and I'll always be grateful to. Thank you. And I remember here years ago, and I did a drawing that went on Instagram that was the tiniest act of kindness can save a life. And I think, you know, human beings are just, we're just so fragile. We're phenomenally strong and obviously, but there's a fragility in and the vulnerability in us that really notices kindness and really notice it when it's not there. And it can turn an entire ship the course of a life. You know, by one degree you can end up in a completely different country

just by that tiny thing that was done on one day. And I think where we are now in this, you know, this pandemic and, you know, our sort of resources, inner resources are depleted. You know, our patience is running. thin. I think we're just, our inner resources are so depleted now. And we're trying so hard. And kindness just goes such a long way to keep us each other going. And it doesn't cost very much or take any time. But it can change life. That teacher just doing that one simple, simple thing. And actually, it's when you don't have kindness that you realize how important it is, it's when it's

missing from somebody's life and I find that it's just unbearable yeah it really is yeah it is and and I think the word going back to your original question about what it means I think kind we all know that kind can be a tiny thing I think love is obviously quite is a huge word and it's sometimes overwhelming if you say you love someone but kindness can go under the radar and it can it can be a just a nuance it can it can be the smallest thing. It can be a smile. It can be anything that encourages someone else. And also to yourself, obviously.

I mean, that's a whole other thing. I was really not good at being kind to myself for a long time. And I think that's a crucial to speak kindly to yourself. Or, you know, to speak as lovingly to yourself as you would to your best friend. Or to be as gracious, you know, give yourself grace. You know, I think we punish ourselves a lot. or many people seem to. We speak harshly to ourselves. And I think it's a very easy thing to do. And it's times like these when we need to be gracious and patient with ourselves as much as anyone else.

I've always said that the kindness thing that my children can do for me is leave me in my favourite thing, which is my bath. There you go. And I love a bath. And it's a silly little thing, but I think, well, that's my, that's my gift to It's my kind time to myself. So all of those little things. And then I read that you love a bath too. I do. I can, you know, when you say it's a silly little thing, if it works for you, it's not silly at all. It's huge and really important. And I love that you love a bath. I've never understood showers. No, me neither. You have to stand up for a start. I'd rather low down. Never ever got it. Crazy thing. Let's let's go to your incredible book.

So I remember buying this before the sort of the buzz was going on. And I bought many, many, many copies. I actually know exactly how many copies. I've bought 15. And I've given them to people because I just knew people that needed it in their heart. And then the sort of the whole buzz around it happened. And then it was building. And it's never stopped.

And long may it continue because I think it's very, very, I think it's a very important book for all of us. I think it's, you know, as people have said, liking you to Winnie the Pooh and all of these things that have changed generations. Can we just talk through the boy, the mole, the fox and the horse? Because I know everybody's asked you this, that it's all a part of you.

But are they still, do you love the four of them in a different way now than we do? because you've sort of passed on the love, or is the love that you have for them, has it grown? I just wondered how you feel about them now, because you know them so well. That's a really interesting thing to say. I definitely feel the same.

What's happened, though, since, is, you know, obviously I did the audiobook. It's beautiful. Oh, thank you. But I think that made me look at them as slightly closer for some reason, because I had to slightly rewrite the book because there were no pictures, so I had to sort of, you know, try and paint with words. And then doing this little film, again, I've had to go in deeper again to look at them

and to see, you know, what else they feel or why they are the way they are or their relationships and all. So, no, it hasn't gone. I, if anything, you know, I feel the fox doesn't play much of a role in the, or less, the fox is just sort of the hurt, withdrawn inside of us. And that's the way the fox remained in the book. Whereas when I've, you know, when I'm sort of writing for the

little film, the fox plays a more interesting, more central role. Because the journey of the fox that will, the healing of love to damage is quite a thing. And I think that will happen with the fox. I suppose it it's gone deeper

than it was. I can't wait for the film. I have to say. Is it true that the fox came about from a tattoo that you did for Scarlet, for Richard and Emma's daughter Scarlet Curtis, for people who don't know, obviously, that sounded terribly in, but for Scarlet Curtis, that you drew a fox tattoo for her.

Is that right? Yeah, I mean, I've, I've drawn, always drawn animals and foxes and everything all my life and horses. But there was a day when she said, yeah, she said, would you draw me a fox? But I had drawn them before, but it was definitely a kind of, I remember drawing the fox.

on various pieces of paper and then drawing the mole next to the fox and then putting the mole on the fox's back and then having the fox with the boy. So yeah, it was probably around then, definitely, that it was definitely a catalyst. I love that it came from a catalyst from a tattoo. Yeah, lovely Scarlet. I mean, you know, she's incredible. She's amazing girl. But you've worked with them, of course, because you didn't you do, you did, collaborated with Richard Curtis, haven't you? Yeah, over the years I've done quite a lot of things. Yeah, so I used to do drawings on film sets and then we'd auction them for comic relief.

And then we'd end up just doing drawings for T-shirts for comic relief. And so in lockdown, we did one of the boy and their mole and a heart called Love Wins. And I think that made like two million pounds in two weeks or something insane. Wow. Oh, my words. Yeah, it was, yeah, for comic relief. Yeah, so again, I mean, you know, that was just one of those moments in life where he you just can't quite believe that you could just scribble on something and then it can, you know, help people somewhere else in the world.

It's mad. Please, please, please. Your extraordinary story, I suppose because everybody is obsessed with the royal family with the Crown at the moment. Everybody's talking about it. But you have a real Crown. I mean, you have a real moment with the Queen Mother that many people didn't get because she was slightly sort of stepped back from it

and would... But you met the Queen and the Queen Mother. And the Queen Mother left you with this extraordinary story. I mean, it's beautiful. I mean, had she not been the Queen Mother and had she just been a gentle, elderly lady, it would have been a very powerful experience anyway. Yes.

Such as she was, given how tender and gentle, and she'd put her head on one side, and she was so small and unassuming and interested, you know. And it had no reason to be. I mean, I was just, you know, a scruffy, slightly sweaty, 21-year-old feeling of it awkward. And yeah, so she was just interested in. And she said, you know, so, you know, who are you?

And we just chatted and said, yeah, she said, what do you do in life? I said, I draw, I try to. And she said, what a very courageous choice decision to make. And I'd never seen, you know, the arts as being courageous at all. Anyone in the arts is doing something brave. I mean, to live is courageous. but I think the arts, for some reason, it's a vulnerable thing to do and it's a difficult thing to do and to make a career out of it is, I mean, the number of people that try to persuade me not to

do something, you know, do something more secure, you know, you need an income, you need a regular wage. And then, of course, I was, you know, being kind of camped has never been one of my strong points. So I was really unkempt and messy. And when she approached, I tried to sort of do something about my appearance. And she laughed. I said, I'm sorry, I'm a bit of a mess. And she just said, oh, you know, to live is to be messy. You know, don't be ashamed of your mess.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah, she was very special person. I love that. Yeah. It's very interesting you're saying about people not being supportive. I mean, I'm very lucky my parents were, but there'll be a lot of kids listening to this because you've captivated children's minds and hearts who'll be thinking, I want to do that.

I want to be an artist. I want to be a cartoonist. I want to be an actor. I want to be a singer. and they might not have the support around them or people saying, do it. They might have everybody saying, no, go and get a proper job.

What advice would you give to them? I think, you know, it's obviously, it's very difficult when everyone's telling you not to. I think trust what's inside of you. Listen to yourself. Listen to the deepest bit of you. And I don't think, when people say, I want to be an artist,

I would say be who you are. Being an artist or being an actor It's not who you are. It's what you do. And so I would say practice whatever it is that you want to do. And keep it deep within you. Look for people who are encouraging because there's always one or two. You know, there'll be the slightly more concerned people.

Like my remember was going out with someone. She said, well, you can't just carry on doing this because it's silly. You'll get a proper job, you know. The proper job thing is always somewhere. I always, I even now hear the voice in my head saying, when will you do something proper? And I think the decision is to not to listen to that critic inside of you, to nurture the friends who do encourage it,

and to nurture your inner world, to work from a place within you and to protect it, and to somehow just persevere is another huge thing, is don't give up. And don't put too much pressure on yourself. initially. Just try to enjoy it and try to accept that what you do today is not as, may not be as good as what you do tomorrow, but accept what you've done today as being fine and enough. And because I think often we, we give up because, oh God, I'm not nearly as good

as X or Y or Z. You'll never be. So, so in a way, just give yourself some grace and space to allow the mistakes. And of course, you know, doing, I did a drawing once at the mole and the boy said, how do you make a good molehill? And the mole said by making a lot of bad ones first. And I think that's the journey is, remember that you're on a journey. And the more you practice something and the more mistakes you make, the better you'll get. And to know that everybody, whoever they are, if you look at Van Gogh's early drawings, they weren't very good. You know, most, whatever you're doing, everyone was bad at some point. And they just kept going, you know obviously Mozart is an exception but I mean most people 99.9% of people in the arts

begin in a you know in a messy awkward stumbling way and don't forget that and don't be hard on yourself and try to just remember to enjoy it because that's really important I remember thinking how am I going to make a living out of how am I going to do this and it just you know it becomes almost a chore that you're trying to something you're trying to you've got too much pressure on it. So try to put as little, just relish it and practice it and nurture the craft, whatever it is. Yeah, I think that's the advice I'd give. That's brilliant advice.

I absolutely, you know, literally everything that you said, I agree with you, 100%, which is very special. The audiobook is quite extraordinary to listen to because we all have, you know, we read it out loud at home or I've got one of your prints on the, actually, I am a superfan, I'm wearing a t-shirt, I've got a print on the wall. I've got the book. But the audio book has suddenly taken it. I mean, it's extraordinary. I don't know. It's suddenly hearing it in a completely different way and making me look at it again in a different way. Thank you. I mean, the audio book was a whole other thing for me because I look after, I spend a lot of time. I'm in Suffolk now. My mum's up the road and I see her for two hours a day and take it for a walk and stuff. And so I didn't really want to go to London to a recording studio. to do it. So I sort of set it up here in this barn. And so I recorded it over time, bit by bit, writing it, recording it, re-recording it, and thinking about it. And the idea of it just being another audio book where you just read the story from the book didn't appeal to me largely because it wouldn't have worked because, you know, the book is at least 60, 70, 80% visual pictures. So it would have been a very short audio book. You know, so I just wanted to

I wanted to create something that was an experience with music and bird song. And I wanted people to feel enveloped by it, that they were in something, like in the wood. They were actually there. And it was a, you know, I wanted it to be like a something that people have said when they've read the book, I feel comforted by it or I feel hopeful. I wanted to try to do that with the audiobook to create an experience, I suppose. They're quiet for a while, just gazing at the view. And time passes.

What do you want to be when you grow up? Ask the mole, said the boy. Soft rain begins to fall. The boy opens an umbrella, and they huddle together beneath it, as the drops fall around them, melting the snow. What do you think success is? asked the boy to love

said them all it took months because I tried to you know spent night after night sifting through Spotify looking for music that I felt would have the same the right feeling to it and then obviously listening

to fire after file of wildlife and you know all those things so yeah it was a cake that took a long time to bake it's perfectly baked there's no soggy bottom there it's perfect before we finish I have to talk about Barney because Barney

just, I mean every time I see you walking on stage or yesterday I was watching everything and Barney is everywhere with you. Barney is human. I mean Barney is a human being dog. He is human. He's funny. As you said,

Barney, he's sitting there a yard from me staring at me and he's got a little sore paw. Oh no. No, it's fine. His claws growing around into his pad. I've been putting cream on it, and I'm trying to stuff him looking his broad. And yeah, he's a very funny, his character really is the mole, you know. And obviously he's the same size because obviously the mole in the book is, you know,

800 times bigger than a little mole would be normally because they're tiny. And he's, he is, the mole is the size of Barney. And with the same pointed nose, the same obsession with snacks. You know, the same enthusiasm. Yeah, so yeah, he's, Barney is extraordinary, like a fluffy little dachshund who sleeps next to me and sits next to me when I work and comes to interviews with me.

It's funny how animals can really influence you and his nature is so relentlessly alive and funny and loving, you know. Oh, all the perfect things. And we always ask, we always ask everybody in this podcast, what makes them properly laugh. You love a giggle. I mean, every time I've heard you interviewed and read everything,

it says you love a giggle. What makes you laugh, apart from Barney, looking at you like that? Yeah, you know, I think friends do, just a general conversation. I think life makes me laugh. I think, obviously, Barney does.

My mother, when I go and see every, Barney, don't let you're poor. Stop it. My mother, when I turn up every day, she laughs at least a minute because she finds it. she finds me funny to look at. And I think that's probably what it is.

I do chuckle at a lot of things. I laugh at, not at people, but people make me laugh in the way they move or the way they talk or the things they say. My mum's carer is a hilarious suffolk. Elderly lady who's got a turn of phrase. I just cry with, you know, she's always come up with something funny.

I think people make me giggle and cry, obviously. And I think, you know, I've done cartoons all my life since I was a kid. I like making people laugh with my mother's house is covered in drawings, cartoon, that I'll make a book of actually, I think, in the end. But I used to do them for the spectator, you know, I used to do cartoons for the magazine because I think laughter is like such a crucial thing in life, you know, be so important. Especially when things are difficult, it's to keep your sense of humour.

And yeah, so chuckling to me is a, it's, yeah. is very important. Laughter and kindness are the absolute thing. You know, you're right, actually. Those two things. I love looking at old photographs of sort of wartime photographs, seeing people in the trenches, drinking tea and laughing, or people in real adversity laughing,

or even my dad on his dying day said, to the wonderful nurse when she came in, he said, I suppose we're not going to, I suppose tonight's not a night for pole dancing. He said something about going to a pole dancing. in the face of absolute, you know, to still be able to chuckle is such a gift, I think. Charlie, as you are, I mean, I've been wanting to speak to you for so long because I, you captivated my heart and you will always, you will always do so.

And so many people. Oh, thanks, Gobi. Thank you so much. And thank you for the audio book. Thank you for the book. And thank you for your kindness. And thank you for sharing your laughter and your kindness because you're a good egg. You really are.

Thank you. Well, thank you for having me on, you know. It's been a lovely chat. I'm always slightly nervous and daunted about being interviewed, but this was great and thank you so much for listening to me, ramble on. Oh, I could do it all day and there's no rambling at all. It's a joy. Charlie, thank you very much. Thank you. Now, we're actually taking a week off next week, so please join me next time in the new year, Monday the 4th of January when I'll be chatting to the wonderful and wise, Fern Cotton. That Gabby Roslyn podcast is proudly produced by Cameo Productions.

Music by Beth McCari. Please press the subscribe button and it will come straight to your phone on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you choose to listen. Also please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.