That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Dame Jacqueline Wilson

Episode Date: June 27, 2022

On today's episode of the podcast, Gaby is joined by Dame Jacqueline Wilson. Jacqueline has been a huge part of our lives through her brilliant books including 'Tracy Beaker' and 'Hetty Feather'. She talks very openly about her childhood and how nobody believed she would become an author. They touch on every aspect of her life from her beginnings all the way through to where she is today, including a long battle with her health, guaranteed to inspire you all. They also talk about Jacqueline's brilliant new book 'Baby Love' which is available everywhere right now! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to that Gabby Roslyn podcast, part of the Acast Creator Network. Dame Jacqueline Wilson is my guest this week and she is always such a joy to speak to. She is a big part of all of our lives through her brilliant books that of course include Tracy Beaker and Hetty Feather. She talks so openly about her childhood and how nobody believed she'd ever become an author. She strongly believes in following your dreams and how sheer determination got her through. We discuss her health and her transplant, and I know she'll help so many people, by the way, she talks about it all. We also chat about how important our imaginations are. She really is a one-off.

And if you ever get a chance to meet her, you too will come away feeling like you've spent time with a truly magical woman. I hope you enjoy this chat and her magic rubs off on you too. Her new book, Baby Love, is very moving, very beautiful, and is available now. Please can I ask you a favour? Would you mind following and subscribing please by clicking the follow or subscribe button? This is completely and utterly free, by the way. And you can also rate and review on Apple Podcasts, which is the purple app on your iPhone or iPad. Simply scroll down to the bottom of all of the episodes. I know there have been quite a few now. And you'll see the stars where you can tap and rate and also please write a review. Thank you so much. So you're one of the most borrowed authors on the planet?

It makes me sound well-thumbed. I love that. It'd be quite a good description of me, that I'm getting older. Jacqueline Wilson, well-thumbed. Yes, it's possibly not the right connotation. There we go. That's why I love you. Every time I speak to you, you always start a bit naughty.

It's great. How does that feel? because if the little girl, Jacqueline, who loved being surrounded by books, knew that everybody was surrounded by your books, what would that little girl now say? It was my dream fantasy. And when I used to walk to school, none of the children I knew lived where I did. So I had a long walk by myself to school and made up imaginary things. But I also had this game that I interviewed my age. And I was grown up and I was a famous author. And so there's still that little girl somewhere inside me.

And it's still, after all these years, doesn't seem quite real. And it's so odd. If I happen to see a child on a train or something reading a book, not so much now because mostly they're just peering at a screen. But certainly in the past, coming across somebody actually reads, my book, or now having lovely 20-somethings recognise me and stopped me in the street and say, oh, you were part of my childhood.

I mean, that is so touching and so lovely. I never thought it would happen. I mean, it's like wishing you were a brain surgeon or a ballerina or whatever. I mean, that's what I wanted to do more than anything in the world, but it was also a fantasy. and she knows how I had all my ambitions into being a writer but my actual sort of full bad job was going to be a hairdresser

because I always had very short hair and my mum wouldn't let me grow it she said it was the wrong kind of hair which she was probably right about so I begged all my friends that had long hair to let me undo their plats and style it and muck around with it and any doll that I had became bald quite quickly

because I brushed and brushed. And so that was what I was going to do if I couldn't make it as a writer. And most people that knew me thought, right, okay, she's going to be a hairdresser, she'll possibly be quite good at it. Nobody thought I would ever, ever be a writer. Really? Nobody believed in you.

No, I mean, I wasn't a promising child. I couldn't say boo to a goose. I did point good essays and compositions at school, but, you know, I was, it sounds pathetic, but brought up in a council estate and people like me weren't writers. And certainly my parents and my school didn't even think about, you know, perhaps it was possible to go to university or anything like that. And people who wrote books, it was considered then, you know, were posh and high achieving. And it's so wonderful that things have changed. It really is. Gosh, there's so many things that from just the bit that you said there, the following your dreams,

you might have just seen me well up because I find it incredibly overwhelming when you tell the story of when you, a child and you knew what you wanted to do. And I have exactly the same when I was three. I only ever wanted to be in television and I was also shy. But I did have my parents saying follow your dreams. But you didn't have people believing that you could do it. So I wonder where that pull carried on from. I think I think it was a very strange combination. of being very shy and it also very determined and when I was 17

and just finishing a rather dire typing course because that's what they did with girls like me in those days. I saw an advert for teenage writers in one of the London newspapers and I thought, why not try? And I had, my parents had given me

a very small portable typewriter for a birthday present. So I tried writing a story, a funny story, even though I thought they'll want a kind of Mills and Boone romance. And bizarrely, somebody on this potential magazine, which came up the next year, which happened to be Jackie, which was lovely, they thought, this funny kid in just outside London's got a little bit of flair or something. and then, so after I had written them a few more,

they actually offered me a job up in Dundee, this was D.C. Thompson's, and never been to Scotland before. And my mum was a bit uncertain about it and insisted that I go to live in a hostel and I ended up in the Chutch of Scotland Girls' hostel. Did you? And the matron there was very fierce.

I mean, I can understand why, because if you have a whole house full of mad girls between 15 and 22. I mean, you've got to be quite strict. We were only allowed to see boyfriends twice a week up to, I think it was 10.30. No kissing on the doorstep. And then it was for wonder we actually got boyfriends

because we were only allowed two baths a week. And even then they were lukewarm because the hot water system couldn't stay hot very long. So we had to take it in turns. And if it was your bath night, I mean, you were wise to miss out supper because then you could charge for the bathroom. I mean, it was really primitive. And because she didn't have any actual spare dormitories or the cubicles, which were just little beds with a sort of just like hospitals. really with some curtains that you pulled around.

She actually cleared out a bit of storage stuff from the linen cupboard, which was bigger than certainly my linen cupboard at home. And I was squashed in there on the camp. Goodness me. I mean, I see where all of your stories all come from. I mean, that was a really super thing to happen because it was the only in winter, the warm room. And so everybody wanted to be my friends. could come and crouch in the linen cupboard with me.

In the linen cupboard. I think it was about nine months. And then another girl whose roommate was leaving to get married said, right, you and me, Jackie, we'll go and share a flat. And I was quite excited by this idea. But in actual fact, we lived in two rooms in Diggs with a very, very fierce landlady who had that thing where she could. just wash the kitchen floor once. She had to do it at least seven times. And I was scrupulously careful

after I'd had a bath in the communal bathroom to sort of vim it all the way round and get it as clean as clean. But then she hauled me back inside and called me really nasty names and look at the bath. And I said, but I've cleaned it. But you didn't dry it.

So I had to kneel down and dry it with my words. And try it with my towel. So it wasn't luxury living, but it was good for me. And I learned to that you can't just sit and wait and hope somebody will make friends with you. What you have to do is be bold. And if you hear some other girls in the hostel or at the office saying, or we're going dancing tonight, you just got a pipe up and say, can I come too?

And nearly ways they'll say yes. And if they say no, well, you know, so what? You can try another bunch. And that way I made some good friends there and had various boyfriends, which was a crafty move. Because in the hostel, all the other girls who lived in the countryside too far to travel into Dundee for work, they went home. And so was all on my own. And on Sunday, even the cook went off home. And there was no food for me.

She left sort of Saturday sandwiches. and maybe a bit of leftover cramble or something in the fridge. And that was all I had to eat on a Sunday. And yet had no cooking facilities. So you got yourself a boyfriend. It sounds ever so calculating. It wasn't really like that. It just happened that the boyfriends I had mostly had very kind moms

who invited me for Sunday lunch. And that was absolutely wonderful. But you then got married very young, didn't you? I was silly. I mean, I hadn't always got on well with my parents and I think they were quite glad when I went. And I don't think they were very keen for me to, I think they were just waiting for me to leave so that they could separate, which they did quite soon after that. I didn't really have anywhere else to go. And this particular guy made me laugh and, you know, it seemed okay. And so, So, you know, I kidded myself that, okay, this was it. And in those days, girls from my sort of background, their big ambition was to get engaged and married very young. It wasn't really my ambition, but didn't have that much alternative. But I was determined to make a go of it.

And so I got married at 19 and then had my lovely daughter when I was 21. and that was wonderful. But I was leading a very odd life then because my ex was a policeman and I had never reckoned on being a policeman's wife. I wanted to be a sort of artist's muse in a garret, not live on my grandparents' top floor, which was where we ended up

until we got allocated a police flat. But it was all grist of the mill. And after I'd left DC Thompsons, I carried on contributing short stories because we had very little money. And so we mostly, certainly everything that I needed to buy came from the short stories. But I was busy writing novels. And after about two attempts that were turned down in quite a kindly way, I actually, I think in the same year I got a contract for a novel. which, to my surprise, appeared on a crime list. So I was stuck writing adult crime novels for five years or so.

But I also got a beginning to read book for children published, and that was what I really wanted to do. And so I carried on trying to write them. And for about 10 years, I made far more money out of the magazines, and we couldn't really afford for me to drop them. but I think probably it was the story of Tracy Beaker that started to make an impact and it was the first one of my books

to be illustrated by Nick Sharrott and they were very eye-catching and then of course it was the television serial that so many people watched and it just went on and on and on and on. It's very interesting because you use the word determined and yet your life reads like a book, obviously. I know you and I have had that conversation before, but this is real life.

This is things that were going on. And your determination doesn't seem to wane in your own story at all that you keep going. That's such a good lesson to everybody. I mean, it's funny because a lot of people think I'm very lucky and I am very lucky. And, yeah, I could have worked twice as hard and still not got anywhere. But you can't just just give up and you have to work really hard. And for a long time bringing up my daughter, I was writing at least 3,000 words of magazine stories in the morning when she was at school, say,

and then having about an hour and a half writing the current novel, plus playing a lot and reading to my daughter and having fun with her. And my marriage was quite an old-fashioned marriage in that, you know, I had to cook sort of meat and three veg and a pudding and custard every day and do all the washing. I didn't even have a washing machine and ironing. And my ex-husband liked to have three shirts a day. You know, one casual one, if he was playing golf after work or before. work because he was on shift work and one

quite sort of nice shirt if he was going out with his mates of the pub and then the third was his police uniform which in those days bizarrely and this is only the 1960s blue linen

with the most difficult little epaulettes and things that you had to iron and then to cap it all detachable collars that was starched. And the first time I tried to tackle them, I had to give it about three goes and ended up crying over the lining board

because I couldn't get the starching right. But, you know, I learned and moaned about it. But what it does, it all sounds such an incredible story that it's all, it sounds like. It sounds like a book. It sounds like a film. But this is what really happened to you. And that's why your books touch a nerve. And that's why, Kit, I know you wrote a book when you were very young

and you knew this is what you wanted to do. But did you know that you were going to be able to touch a nerve quite like you do? No. No, not at all. I didn't quite believe that I would ever get something published. Really? Yes. And I mean, yeah, that's what I wanted.

But it was the actual writing of the stories that I particularly liked. And then I was thrilled to be published. And, you know, the first time I saw one of my books in a bookshop, it was wonderful. And then I just kept on and on. And yet for years, if people asked me what I did for a living, I'd go all shy and sort of murmured and frogs, you know, as if it was a terribly embarrassing thing. Because, I mean, I had that silly imposter syndrome that I think so many people do have. It's not so bad now, but then, you know, I didn't expect it at my age still to be determinedly writing, still enjoying it thoroughly. See, that's the word, enjoying it.

How important that is, because when you talk about your books, we'll talk about Baby Love You in your book in a moment. But when you talk about your books, I see that enjoyment. That's why it's so lovely to see you face to face, because your eyes light up. You love your books. Well, I like writing them, doing the imagining of them. That's what I mean.

Yes, yes, yes. If I have to rewrite bits, it's a torture. And when, you know, your books get edited now and everybody's got their opinion about what's working, what's not, and that's even worse. But when they're actually published, I've never yet re-read a book because I've gone over it so many times. I don't want to. and I have this fear that I would actually read a passage and think, oh, that's so clunky. How could I have not seen that?

I think it's a bit like actors. I was so charmed that Dame Judy Dench says that she never watches herself in films because she always has to put her hands over her eyes. And I do feel, you know, tremendously self-conscious about my books. until if I'm asked to read a passage, if I'm doing an event with children, that's absolutely fine. That's different. Yes. I remember you were very sweet to my younger daughter, and she just couldn't believe that she was meeting you. And I think that when I was saying about how you love your books is also you love the reaction that it causes in young people who read your books. And that must feel quite magical.

It does. It really, really does. In fact, my partner Trish says when I get very old and a little bit do lulley and she's wheeling me out in a wheelchair, she's going to pay children to come up to me. Julie Wilson, I love your books. She's never going to have to pay anybody. They'll do it actually. But that would make me perk up. Oh, that's so lovely. So all of your books, I know that I've read you speak before about how you feel about that some.

adults feel that some of the subjects you touch because you talk about sexuality, you talk about divorce, you talk about depression, child abuse, homelessness. You touch on all of those issues that some adults think, oh, I don't want my child reading this, but children need to be aware. That's real life. I think so. I mean, I never graphic about things. No, you did delicately. to write from inside a child's head. So there's no lurid descriptions of anything. But I remember reading, even books I loved as a child in the 1950s. It was such a cozy world.

And mummies and daddies, they might be a bit remote or they might be on an airplane that crashed so they're conveniently out of the plot. But they weren't there in real life shouting at each other or doing very furtive things behind each other's backs. And children weren't mean to each other in children's books. They might tease a little bit, but they weren't the way actual real children can be.

And I used to think, you know, why don't people, you know, write about children as they really are? And in fact, quite soon I started to try to find adult books about children, which I found much more satisfying because then you could really see, yes, yes, that's exactly what it's like. And so I think I really started writing at exactly the right time because I think the mood was slightly changing. And yet not a lot of people were writing really really,

gritty sort of books and books that had a lot of emotion in them and try as I might to write it to tongue-twister time try as I might to write in a different kind of style whenever I started a book it just came out the way it does I can't sort of twist it around I used to be quite adept having the right kind of voice for whichever magazine I was writing for but that was just writing to pay the bills if I was writing from the heart

the whole me came pouring out and it still does I think that's why I don't really write for very little children sort of picture books because I think there you need a lot of gentleness and reassurance. And it's, you want to be in a kind of Millie, Molly, Manny, Manny, my naughty little sister sort of world,

which is cozy. And I think that's fine. But once you pass six or seven, then you can introduce a little bit of reality. Yeah, you say a little bit. And I think that's wonderful because you're opening their eyes. And there's over the past few years,

and including, obviously, talking about the pandemic, and including the war, young people, you know, what they're having to face over the past three years, but is, you know, none of us want our children, grandchildren, whoever, anyone, to see the news and to be aware of what's going on. But what books do, you know how much I love books. I think they're, I grew up around, my parents had books everywhere.

And when my kids were born, I put books on the floor. So the minute they could crawl, there were books. They devoured books. They need books now more than ever, don't they, to escape some of the things that are going on. And I think you've just said exactly how to get a child reading. You don't actually stop it from playing something and say, right, now you sit down and read a book as if it's a punishment or whatever. But if books are very much part of a home, it makes it so much easier. I wish more people could have books.

I think I know that you and I've worked with certain charities who do give books away and I hope they're still doing so at the moment. I think that's very important. What's it like to see the people that were in your head in real life? I know you're asked this all the time. Danny Harmer. I was watching her on Mastermind at the weekend. Oh, somebody told me she was on Mastermind.

I'll have to watch it on catch up. She did very well. Oh, good for dying. She was pregnant. And it was lovely, but it was extraordinary because she'll always be. Tracy Beaker. But, and I know everybody asks you the story, but does it ever feel bizarre that we see those people that you saw in your head?

We see them as we now see them. Does that make sense? Yes, I think so. It's difficult because no matter how brilliant they are like Danny, they're not quite exactly the way you've thought about them in your head. But it seems to work. I've been lucky. I can truthfully say there's not been any adaptation that has made me wince.

I've generally been thrilled to bits with them. And Emma Reeves, who's written the recent episodes, my mum, Tracy Beaker about Tracy being a mum, has become a dear friend of mine. And she's very respectful. She doesn't need to do this at all. But we have a whole day together. you know, having a pub lunch and thinking things through.

And she asked me, now, what do you think if we have so-and-so getting involved with Sutton's Hutch? And we talk it through. And she has wonderful ideas. And yet she's always careful in that in case I want to write another one in that particular series, that we're not going to be, you know, having different ideas. and it seems to work a treat so far. And Emma did the stage version of Hetty Feather. Yes, I loved that.

I loved it. I mean, it actually launched at the Rose Theatre in Kingston, where I lived at the time. So it was marvellous. And I'm embarrassed to say we went to the stage performance many times. Oh, that's embarrassing. That's lovely. And when my partner, Trish, was with me, the cast adored it.

Because always, at the end, she'd stand up and cheer. And it made everybody else start up and cheer. Oh, that's so wonderful. But it was such a lovely adaptation. And, you know, the cast was magical. The director is Sally Cuxon, who's, you know, fantastic. And one of the producers, Mark Bentley, has become a dear friend of mine.

And in fact, we happened to email each other. And then we kept on emailing. And now it's just like I'm writing a diary. I email Mark every night. Mark, I think, is definitely nocturnal because often I get replies in the middle of the night. And then so the next night I carry on an email back. And that's been going on for two years now.

Oh, how lovely. And it really is fantastic. Friendships are important, aren't they? relationships are. Yes. And I mean, I've met him quite a lot of times and I hope to meet him again soon. But it's almost nicer keeping it. You know, we are special email friends. So lovely. Can we talk about your health now because you're very open and you talk about it? But you're your heart and your kidney and you've had a kidney. hanging onto my liver, although I abuse it with a glass of my mouth. But you've had a kidney transplant and you are remarkably strong-willed and determined. I'm going to go back to that word because I feel that your determination has seen you through all of those things as well. Well, I was really surprised when I started to get symptoms of heart failure and because I've always been a bit of a heart failure.

And because I've always been a bit of a hypochondriac, I thought, no, foolish woman, you're just having a bit of a panic attack because you're working a bit too hard. And that heavy feeling across the chest can be caused by anxiety. And so I waited a while. And then it became plain because I started to get really tired and then waking up coughing in the night because my lungs were filling up because my heart wasn't working. And then I did have to be determined actually because the first time I went to the doctors, which is certainly not my doctors now, they were very nice but said,

yes, well, we'll send you for some tests, but it'll be a little weight. And I'm sure it's to do with your age or whatever. And then it started to get worse. And so I asked for another appointment, and I spoke to a doctor on the telephone and he again was very reassuring, said no. And then after a particularly awful night,

I thought, oh goodness, I know there's something really wrong with me and went back to see yet one more doctor in that practice who took it seriously, who did some magic so that we have a blood test straight away and said, come back tomorrow and we'll see. And then when he saw me, he said, well, according to this, and I've had it done twice, technically, you should be dead. No, he said that.

He did, he did. I mean, he's a lovely chap and knew that I would laugh, though scared too. Yes. And my heart was failing and my lungs were filled with water. And so I had more tests done and it was all properly diagnosed. and then I was considered an emergency, which emergency is a worrying word, but you do get in quickly then. And I had a defibrillator put into my chest, which is like a small iPhone,

which, you know, if you lose a bit of weight, you have this weird sort of rectangle sticking out of your bosom. but that makes sure that my heart isn't going too fast. It can be all monitored. And then I have pills to take as well. And so that seems I'm lucky. For the moment, my heart's completely okay. But then, unfortunately, these things often go hand in glove

about two or three years later. I discovered I had kidney. failure too. And that's quite dreary because, you know, your kidney levels function goes down and down and down until eventually you have to have dialysis. And that, so you're tied up to a machine for about just over four hours, but then you have to wait for your turn on a machine. They do it in three different shifts during the day. And then we're, when you come off the machine, you've got to wait and hang on hard to your arm with cotton wool, because if you let it go, you can have really scary fountains of blood.

Oh, my word. And one time, I thought it was all fine. It seemed to be fine. So I went to the loo and then suddenly it started spurting everywhere. and my jeans and underwear were around my ankles. And I go, oh dear God, I don't really want to bleed to death being modest. But how can I go out in this mixed water? What do I'm laughing?

Oh, my goodness. So I managed to put my head around the door and say, help, I'm bleeding a bit. And then when the nurses came running, and this is actually quite a usual thing that happens. in a diallysis ward and she just pumped sort of shoved her very strong hand on it and stopped it for the while

and then they bound it up and then I had to sit down for half an hour or more with my jeans back in place yes I would say your jeans pulled up you're relieved to hear it and it taught me a lesson don't be too impatient

but it keeps you alive It's not a great way to live. I looked like a zombie because I was incredibly white as a sheet. But apart from that, I could still, I could go in the morning and pre-signed books, do anything I wanted. And then I couldn't really type well because if you moved, when you were on the machine, if you moved the hand that was tied up with all the pipes and needles and things, then you could do yourself serious damage

or the thing would come out. So I couldn't learn to type properly and quickly left-handed. So I just sort of jotted down as best I could notes. Once for a very long book that I was worried I would be behindhand, Tish actually crouched on those very uncomforty hospital chairs and I dictated to her and she typed and typed and typed for ages. I love the sound of Trish.

Oh, she is fantastic. But though she listens to this, she'll be, oh. She'll be mortified. Why did you say that about me? But it is true. I mean, she has been a treasure. I could carry on writing. And I don't think that many people actually knew that I was having the treatment.

But then she, Tresh, decided that she wanted to donate a kidney to me, but we're not compatible blood and tissue-wise. So there is a wonderful scheme where it's kind of like one of those lottery things in that you with your blood type and your partner or whoever's wonderful enough to donate a kidney to you, go in this kind of tombola thing and if they can match you up with somebody so that the person who is donating actually has your tissue type and blood group

and their partner could have tritches, you can do a swap. We had to wait to the fourth time to be able to do it and we had almost given up but they did find a match for us it's done and I don't know if it's now not anonymous but certainly it was then so we never knew

how long ago was this? Very bad on date, seven years maybe something like that and we had the operations on the same day and they would let us be together I think it was because they said no if one of you isn't making us good

progress as the other worry. So, but I didn't feel anywhere near as ill as I thought I would. And you get up the next day. I mean, it hurts like hell to move out of bed, but sensible to do that. Trish was back home within three days and I took about six days. That's incredible. And then you have to keep going back to the hospital initially every other day. they make sure that everything's working.

And so, you know, when you sit in the car, you have cushions on all your sawpits so that you can actually bear to have a seatbelt over you. But it was remarkable how quickly we both recovered. And, you know, it's a magical thing. I mean, I found my father's death certificate when actually I was clearing out my mum's flat after she died. And my father died of left ventricular dysfunction,

which is that form of heart failure and kidney failure. No. Exactly what I have had. And yet, he died at 57. And so how wonderful that medical matters have actually developed and moved on. So I suppose I'm on borrowed time. No, you're not. You're going to be here for a very long time.

Well, I'm going to try. No, you are. You're magical. I'm going to keep saying that word as well. So let's talk about baby love, the new book. Baby love is set in, well, it starts in 1959, but it's mostly in 1960. And when you taught to say teenagers now, they will look all nostalgic as if they remember the 60s. And they say, oh, so cool then.

and the Beatles and Mary Kwan and mini skirts and all that psychedelic stuff and the start of all the free love and everything. Well, later on in the 60s, that all happened. 1960 was still pretty prim and proper. And I was about that age. I think some people will think it's an autobiographical book. It absolutely wasn't.

it's about a schoolgirl who becomes pregnant. But, you know, one did vaguely know people that this had happened to. Partly because there was so little sex education, all we had in biology when it came to, we were told you're going to have reproduction this term. And like silly schoolgirls, we all got very ever excited about this. And what reproduction was,

was having a whole load of the most terrible, sad, stiff dead rabbits reeking of formaldehyde and we were encouraged to cut them up which we really didn't want to do but then there was one part of the lesson where we examined the rabbit sex organs and neither they weren't very well endowed which they were

but that was it and so that's how you learned about sex Well, there was also, you know, the sophisticated girls in the class who were, you know, I don't think they really were having exciting sex lies. I think they were just pretending. And, I mean, you learned some information that way, but also got some of it wrong, I'm sure. And, of course, reading and reading adult novels by that time, you could pick up a lot of what was going on. but you didn't really have any kind of practical help.

And so the girl in my book, Baby Love, is Laura. And she's very young. She's only 14. And she has a slightly older, a much more sophisticated friend who pretends she knows it all and teases my Laura for being so naive and childish. And Laura's hardly ever spoken to a boy,

let alone, you know, had any, romantic encounter. And then there's one terrible time. She meets up with some French student at the swimming pool. He can't really speak English. He tries to walk her home. They end up in a very fumbled encounter, which Laura doesn't exactly give her permission for,

as we would feel nowadays, you know, shock horror. this is technically rape because she's under 16 and hasn't given permission. In those days, it was, I have no idea how it would be termed. But I do know that if a girl became pregnant then, an innocent, silly, naive girl, she would be considered bad. And families would really be ashamed. And most ordinary families would, if their daughter became pregnant, wouldn't just tough it out and look after her at home

and have a few neighbours talking. They would actually send the girls away to mother and baby homes, where the girls would stay, have their babies. And then it was definitely the idea that they were told the very best thing for your baby is to have it adopted. You don't want to bring up a baby which would have a stigma against its name. And I mean, I know. This is recent history we're talking.

Yes. And there are still women, say, my age today, grieving for those babies that they were. When I say force, I don't mean they were pinned down and forced to do it. But emotionally blackmailed into doing it for the most part. I'm sure there were a few that hung on to their babies or had some other support. And I do find a way in my book for it to have a happy ending. But I remember at the time being so appalled that you could have a baby. And I always, weirdly, I wasn't that keen on getting married or anything.

And yet I always thought it would be wonderful to have a child who would maybe, you know, think of it like me because nobody really in my close circle was passionate about books or imaginary things or anything. But I thought then just how terrible it must be, you know, to part company with that child and not even be told who's adopted them or ever see them again. And I mean, now I think if you have been adopted, and the records are still around,

you can trace your mother if she agrees to be traced by somebody who's working for both of you. But I don't think you can do it the other way round and you try very hard to find your baby. I could be wrong, I don't know. I was very sure of my facts about the mother and baby homes

and got several books about it from the 1960s. And I certainly, spot on about lots of young women living in uncomfortable circumstances because I based it on the Church of Scotland Girls' Hostel. You've been there? I mean, we weren't looking after our babies as well, but it was exactly the way it was. And they weren't cruel places.

And they did, girls did have to scrub floors when they were pregnant. And yet apparently some nurse said to me, me that scrubbing floors is very good for you when you're, you know, eight months pregnant. Oh, my word. Yes, I'm not quite sure I would agree with that. Yeah, I'm going to have to let that one out. But I so I did have very vivid memories of 1960 and that sort of attitude. And I'm not saying that everybody had that attitude, but the vast majority of people thought like that.

And that's what is so interesting as you get older, seeing attitudes change so much. And I think obviously it was partly the pill and a really reliable contraceptive. But, you know, just the whole idea of young people, I mean, nearly every family I know if their late teens, certainly early 20s, unmarried children who bought a boyfriend or girlfriend home, they would be allowed to stay over in the same room together. That would never ever have happened. Imagine it then, yes.

Before. And it's just fascinating that things we think are written stone and that this is what good people do and that's what bad people do. You change around. Yes, and I think we've come a long, long, long way. As we just said, that's recent history. I think there's still a way to come, especially around the world.

I mean, here we're not too bad at it. I'm ever hopeful. Imagination. Can we end on imagination? Because I have always said how important. I love, I have, but still do. I walk everywhere. And I'm picturing all sorts of things.

I love my imagination. And it's my imagination. It's something that I have. And I always say to my kids, just keep in my kids. Just keep imagining. It's so important, isn't it? I think so too. And I think you can start a child having an imagination when they're little babies

and just having a tiny bunny or teddy that they know is just a thing, a thing that they snuggle into. But just sort of saying, oh, look, here comes steady. oh, he's jumping up your arm. He's going, hello, so and so. And it seems silly, but that is the way that children can get stimulated to learn how to play by themselves,

learn to make up things. And I don't know, if you're walking along the road with your child, I mean, obviously, sometimes you say, you know, hurry out, I've got to get to Morrison. Yeah, I've done that with my kids. I'm sure you've done that with your daughter. Yes.

But also it could be fun. if they're interested in dinosaurs say, what would you do if a dinosaur came round the corner of the road right now? And just having, not doing it in a plotting way, but just having fun like that. And I do think it helps. I think one of the saddest letters I've ever had, I keep all the really interesting letters from children. Well, you can't really keep emails now,

or your computer would explode. but was one from a child, very matter of fat little girl. And she said, my teacher says I should have an imagination. How can I get one? Oh. And you just thought, well, the teacher wasn't being very imaginative, just telling a child off. But she was so, she wanted one, but she didn't quite know. Where do they go when we, when, I mean, like I said, I'm the age I am.

and I still have one. But there is something that happens, isn't there? That from a child, suddenly the reality comes or something. And you think, oh, no, I'm too old for an imagination. Yes. And I think the happiest people are the people that have some kind of inner child. And I am not suggesting we become like those silly adverts for a certain kind of sweetie. Oh, no, I do.

It drives me mad to. Yes, I know. Yes. But the thing is that it's, I mean, it stops life being so boring and so tedious. And when you're standing in the queue at the supermarket, looking at somebody and wondering what they were like when they were children or wondering if they could possibly be having some really interesting secret life, even though they look so ordinary. I do it all the time. I mean, this is, this is the joy, isn't it? It really is. And you bring joy. And you really do. Dame Jacqueline Wilson, I absolutely adore you.

What you give to young people and what you give to their parents is something very, very, very special. So from every child out there, from every family, thank you so much. Oh, thank you, Gabby. It's been a really wonderful time talking to you. Thank you for listening. Coming up next week, the greatest impressionist of our time. I'm Alistair McGowan. That Gabby Roslin podcast is proudly produced by cameo productions and music by Beth Macari. Could you please tap the follow or subscribe button? And thank you so much for your amazing reviews.

We honestly read every single one of them and they mean the world to us. Thank you so much for listening.