That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - David Harewood

Episode Date: July 18, 2023

Actor, writer and documentary maker, David Harewood, joins Gaby in the studio to talk about the highs and lows of his incredible career, and what brings him joy. He talks about being broke and broken. After his work dried up and his best friend passed away, he was in a bad place, but landing the role of David Estes in Homeland saved both his career and mental health. David also talks about the challenges of playing real-life people - and how taking on the role of William F Buckley Jr (a white American conservative) made him see things a little differently. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

David Herwood, when we saw each other at another opening night of Cabaret, because we keep having the new cast, we had this fantastic conversation, and you completely inspired my younger daughter, because you were talking about being a member of the NYT National Youth. Yeah. Is that where it all started for you? I guess. I mean, it started at school.

I was just a classroom clown who always used to mess about. never, I was rubbish at school. I never got education. I never got academia. Because you weren't interested because you wanted to be an actor? No, I just didn't, it just didn't compute. You know, I was sort of having such a great time playing football and rugby and tennis and mates and athletics.

And I loved it as a club, as a place to go. Yeah. I loved it. But the work you had to do when you were there sort of went over my head. And I can remember sitting in one, I think it was an English exam, history exam and I sort of I remember as you do

you flick through all the questions and I'd flick through all the questions and I sort of couldn't answer I couldn't answer any of them and I sort of looked around to giggle at my mates and they were all busy writing and it suddenly hit me

I thought they're on a different trajectory you know they'd read they'd revise you said rehearsed you see yes I know I get that they had obviously been revising and getting their stuff together and I suddenly turned around

I thought, I'm different. And I blacked it through. I think I got a sea or something. Without writing anything? You're a genius. David, I'm impressed. I wrote bits and pieces, but I think I got to see, I just about scraped to pass.

But then started looking, because I didn't want to go to university. I thought, I can't do this. And suddenly, a teacher called me up and said, come into the school and I went into the school. And he said, what are you going to do when you leave? and I hadn't really had got a clue and I said I don't know sir

and he said well we've been talking in the staff room and we think you should be an actor it was an absolute light bulb eureka moment I went that makes total sense and I that was it from that moment on I decided to be an actor

and auditioned he got a lot to thank that teacher yeah I've met him since and thanked him and really yeah of course there's a documentary where I went back to Birmingham yeah you went back to Birmingham and met him and

and we giggle about it. But that was for the documentary, but I love the idea that you, you know what I mean, away from all of that, that you call him up and you say that you were my light bulb moment. Not a lot of people know or can remember

what that moment was. Oh, it's completely. That was it. And I saw a audition then for the Birmingham Youth Theatre got rejected and about a week later auditioned for the National Youth Theatre and got accepted it. And National Youth Theatre was my first, the first time I found my tribe.

You know, where you find your tribe of people. And I thought, this lot, I love this. All the improvising, the messing around. They were exactly like me. You know, and I suddenly thought, this is what I was born to do because I came alive and all the silly voices and, you know, all of the stuff I did at the back of class, I was now doing in scene work.

And it felt pretty easy for me. Because it came very naturally. Does acting still feel like that now? Pretty much. I mean, it's fun. And as long as it remains fun, that's a good sign. Has it ever not been fun then?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. The acting? Yeah. Really? When I was struggling, you know, I was struggling to, before I went to America,

you know, I wasn't really working very much. And there's nothing like, like thinking, you know, you need the, you got to pay the rent. Yeah. And, you know, some script comes to the door and you think, I don't want to do that, but I need the money. And, you know, that's where I was before I went to America. And I hated it.

I hated those years of having to take jobs that I didn't want to do, but I needed to pay the rent. So, but was that fire always burning, even when you did those jobs? If you... No. It wasn't. No. Oh, wow. You know, if your heart's not in it,

you know, it's a pretty soul-destroying profession. I don't want to paint a picture that it's... No, it's the best job in the world when you're working. When you're enjoying it. Yeah. And when you're having fun, which is 95% of the time. But, you know, there have been times in my career where I've hated it. And that contributed to my breakdown.

You know, going on stage drunk, going on stage high, just to get through it. I mean, it was just a nightmare. I hated it. So there have been times when I've totally lost the desire for it. Why did you go on stage in that part if you were that unhappy? Or was it a case of paying the rent? No, that was a job I'd taken. It was my second professional job.

And I shouldn't have done it. done it and I and but I was sort of bullied into it and I was very inexperienced and I sort of got talked into it and I hated it absolutely hated it and it was a tour on these national tours so you were you know you were jumping in a van and driving off to another location after four days and as soon as it started as soon as it started went up and opened it was a nice Really? I'm pleased you can laugh about it now. I can now because, you know, I've written about it, but it was a really awful gig.

Three-hander. And one of them kept forgetting their lines and never knew what, I never knew what was going to come out of his mouth. And then the other one who was playing my wife just decided to stick a tongue down my throat at one night on stage. And I was like, where do they... What?

Yeah. I was like, where did that come from? And she kind of walked off stage and she was like, no, I'm changing all the blocking. I know what this plays about. And just decided to put it on me, on stage. And I was obviously thrown by this. Just a bit. And very uncomfortable.

And she just decided that that's what the play was about and wouldn't leave me alone. And it was my second job out of drama school. I was fending off this, you know, rather, rather this creature. and, you know, the other guy forgetting his lines and it was just awful. That's that, yes, I cannot, yeah. And I had to do, and I had four months to go. So I had to, I had to get through it, put my head down.

So you coped in the way that you knew, which was drinking. It was the most unhappy I've ever been. And that certainly contributed to my breakdown. Do you know, so what I love is that you, obviously your book, which I've read, it's incredible book. It's very funny as well. It is, yeah.

It's very honest. Very, but it is funny. And I remember thinking, oh, I don't know if I can say it's funny. But you didn't do it. It's very serious and there's some very heavy parts of it. But there is humor there. And I'm talking to you now,

I can see you're saying about something that was the most unhappy time. And yet, you lot, there is humor in it. Yeah. those times. I mean, you know, I think once you can, I've done a lot of work, you know, on, in therapy and, you know, by writing the book, making that documentary, investigating what all that was about, my breakdown was about, done a lot of digging in and looking at myself.

And that's valuable work. And you sort of, you know, if I hadn't processed it, I probably wouldn't be able to laugh about it. But at the time you probably weren't laughing. Not at all, no. It was horrendous. Horrendous experience. Do you know what's so good as well

that you've been so honest about things that people don't usually talk about? Because people talk about mental health and as a sort of big, broad umbrella spectrum. But you talk about a part of it that not as many people are open about. Which part is that? Well, all the stuff, the psychosis,

the voices, all of those things. I'm Joe Trasini. He talks about it now and everyone says, oh, that's what my child's like. Oh, that's what I'm like. And suddenly people go,

I'm not a freak. I'm not on my own. And that's what you've done for a lot of people. Did you think doing your book and doing the documentary and everything, did you think I'm going to be helping a lot of people? No.

I was just curious at first. I thought, you know, I actually thought I was going to remember some of the more, to use the word crazy, because you are euphoric. There's elements of euphoria, really, real euphoria before you'll crash. Most people who experience psychosis particularly,

and people who are bipolar as well, they have these real highs talking a thousand miles an hour, very, very fast, great ideas, oh my God, this is great idea. It's got for a walk right now. And, you know, it's like you're in a state of, a heightened state of awareness and there were some really

incredible moments that I remember and I thought I was going to find all that stuff but I found all the trauma and that was I wasn't expecting that and that then it sent me on a huge spiral

where it took me about four years to process partly partly from seeing my medical records and seeing everything that I was speaking about and everything that I was, every drug I was given. So when it, when, the documentary didn't come out for another year after we made it.

And by then I'd sort of kind of righted the ship and I didn't watch it when it came on TV. You didn't? I picked up anxiety in the house and I was right my wife said you know what about the kids

you know they're going to go to school tomorrow and someone's going to say something and I hadn't even thought about that and I suddenly thought God I've really messed up here and I've really and then advert came on the telly and I was like oh my God

and I was really panicking and I thought oh I'll ruin my career I'm Did you really think about that? I thought for a moment I thought I'd ruin my career and I thought, you know, as an actor, I guess there's a degree of mystique required. But I literally ran naked through the village. I went here.

And I suddenly realized, and when it was the night it was on, I'd really let people in. And I was really panicking about that. But literally, as soon as it finished, and I didn't watch it, I went to bed, and I was just about to drift off to sleep, and it must have finished, because every day, device in my house was beeping, buzzing, vibrating, making noises. And they were all emails and text messages and voice messages from people just saying,

brilliant. Oh my God, amazing. Had no idea. Why haven't you told me about this? And some really lovely warm messages from people I really respect. And you hadn't told them? No. Wow. That's interesting. And then literally the next day it was, I couldn't walk two metres without someone. stopping me in the street and sort of saying thank you you know that happened to my mom or that happened to my dad

and you're standing on the street corner literally blubbing your eyes out because it's a really emotional thing yeah and I didn't expect any of that I didn't expect any of it and actually for a couple of weeks it was it left me quite vulnerable because I didn't quite know well you have as you said you ran through

naked yeah everybody saw everything very uncomfortable your insides your thoughts your feelings your emotions and But you did help people. So the fact that you know that now, looking back, are you pleased that you did it now? Oh, yeah, 100%.

I mean, I was pleased when I did it then. I just had to get... You had to go through those couple weeks. Go through it. And, you know, writing the book was a further examination of it, much deeper examination of it, because I actually read my medical records. And that sent me down a huge rabbit hole.

Reading your disturbed 20-year-old. old self that was overmedicated and locked on the mental institution locked in a mental institution. It's quite... Do you remember that time? I remember moments of it, yeah. Vividly.

Even though you were heavily medicated. Yeah, I can remember certain mornings or getting out of bed, certain mornings. There's lots of it that I recount in the book. The thing about the calendar. I'm going to say the calendar. I remember that. You know, the little moments that are very

vivid for me. And then some moments when you suddenly go, oh my God, that's where that memory comes from. Here's a weird thing though Are you at the stage now Where you don't want to talk about it anymore Because you feel you've talked about it enough I'm only at that stage

Because I fear someone listening to this podcast Might say he said that before And you know I've now been back two years From America And it's almost I guess it's almost a little bit like Oh David Hale's about you know Can we get him in

And no I didn't know I mean I've interviewed you before And it wasn't like that at all I mean, I just, I, God, I can't even remember the very first time I interviewed you. It was so many years ago. Yes. But you've always struck me as somebody who's passionate about what you do. And I like people who are passionate.

And, but you were never this open because of first, that wasn't all out then. I would say. You were an actor. Yeah, I'm a different person. And the doc and the book and the therapy has been, I wish I'd have done it years ago. I really do. I wish I'd have, I feel like I've been a bit of a phony for about 30 years. Really?

Yeah. Wow. Oh gosh. That's quite a heavy thing to put in your own shoulders. But it's only because all the stuff I found during making the documentary, that's the real stuff. And that has cracked open my sort of outer shell of bullshit and made me have a real look inside. And I feel so much more honest and so much more myself. Which is, I'm glad I did it.

Well, hello, David. Hello, David. Hello, David. There you are. There you are. But, okay, so let's go to America, because you said, you know, that awful show that you were doing, three-hander. This is all before you went to America.

And then suddenly it all changed for you. Yeah. So you were living the actor's dream. So all of my friends who trained at GSA with me, or everybody said, you know what? One day I want to make it in America. that move and doing it, did you have the job before?

Did you go to America first and then get the job? No, well, you know, you'd go, there's this awful thing called pilot season where, you know, everybody decamps to L.A., and it's a bit of a cattle market. You know, you turn up there, no one knows who you are, and you walk, it's next, you know, it's that sort of thing. And there's like a hundred people in the outer room.

Some of them gorgeous. Some of them overweight. Some of them black, some of them white, some of them. You know, and you just think, you're looking around going, he's going to get the part. Oh, no, he's going to get the part. Oh, no. Oh, no, he's going to get the part. And then you sort of and then it's your turn and you walk in and you do it. And thank you next. And that was, I did that for a couple of years.

Because my agent, when I signed with... A couple of years? Yeah. I signed with an agent and she was very much aware of where I was in my career, which was, you know, you get to a point on what I did. and I think a lot of black actors get to that point in this country where you've just hit the ceiling there's just nothing for you to do and even though I had a great

younger, as a young actor I had a great time but when you reach that maturity you know you need a big part you need juicy parts and they just weren't there because you're a black actor or because of an actor of a certain age you think

I would say I would say because they don't them for black actors. Or they don't think of black actors in for the... Do you think about... In my lifetime, there's only two dramas that I can remember that I've got a black lead actor, too.

In my entire lifetime, I've been acting for 35 years. And I can think of Idris in Luther. Luther. And Hustle. Adrian. Adrian. Adrian. Two. That's very shocking.

So if you think about that, that's just how special, you know, those... opportunities are for black actors. They shouldn't be? Exactly. I mean, that's just crazy. That's why I did, you know, my agent knew I had to get to America. I knew I, because there's more work,

there's more opportunity there. So I did this the cattle call for a couple of years. What were you doing in between? Picking up bits in, picking up bits there. That's when I started to fall out of love with it because I'm clearly, you know, I'd walk off stage playing Othello and then be

up for, you know, four lines, and a BBC drama and you think, well, I haven't got the lead, why aren't I the lead? Why can't I get a better part in that? Yeah. And it was just,

so it was a couple of years of real frustration because I couldn't, just couldn't crack television here. Even though I'd done a lot of television and done a lot of work, maybe I should have been choosy, I don't know, but I just kind of hit that ceiling.

And it just did the same. Lenny James did the same. Eamon Walker did the same. and they're all, they all went to America and had successful careers. So that was the path for black actors. Once you get known here, and then you can't get to that next level,

you head over to stateside. And it's, for the younger actors, it's now a well-trodden path, so the likes of Daniel Coluya and, what a lovely lad. Wonderful, lad. But again, without having to go through the trauma of all the bullshit,

that we had to go through. He made a couple of good shows here and then gone. And that's the journey for young black actors now. But it should be here. Sorry, it should actually be available here. It's still not. It's wrong. It's not. And, you know, I've been back two years, as I said.

Been back two years. And most of the really good, juicy scripts I get are still American. Let's stay in America before we come back here. Because Homeland, of course, a massive show. actually that was so I remember interviewing you before you went to America then I remember interviewing you when you were in Homeland and you were back here doing interviews and you were you were loving it

oh yeah of course I mean I loved it I mean look I mean I when I when I got Homeland I was I hadn't worked for a year my best friend just passed away

so I was kind of emotionally a bit It's sort of broken. There was just, there hadn't been any work. I did a job at the National Theatre. At first job in like nine months I did this. And it was wonderful, but it was a great piece. Welcome to Thebes. It was called Richard Eyre was directing.

And I got the call to say, oh, my American managers, there's a script here called Homeland. And no, you should put yourself up for it. And I didn't have the confidence to do it. I said, I can't do that. And he sent it to me again and said, put yourself on tape. So I recorded it on my phone, not this very phone, but on my phone, stuck it on the windowsill, press record, did the whole thing, sent it off thinking they'll never watch that. And they did watch it.

I love that, you see. And within, literally within two weeks, I was, of doing the audition, I was. Two weeks? Yeah. I remember because it was around Christmas when we finished and they were shooting early January. And they couldn't find anyone to play the role. That's why they were searching. They couldn't find someone to play David Estes. Couldn't find the right actor.

It started off as a white actor. Then he went to a sort of female. And then they thought, no, that doesn't work. It just cast the right one. They saw you and you were the right one. I was in the literally right place, right time. But that changed your life, didn't it? Is that dramatic?

Totally. Totally. From being skinned and pretty broken, a year later, I'm living in America. and, you know, at the Golden Globes, you know, walking past De Niro, DiCaprio, all the other D's. Did you please? Did you stop and talk to them? Of course I did. Good man.

I grabbed Sydney Potier's, even Sydney Potier's on the way to the bog. What did you say? It was on the way to the bog and I saw him. I went, oh my God, stop. And I just literally, I was Mr. Shaky hands. I just took my hand down. I was shaking his hand going, you have no idea how much you meant to me. I'm so, I was like completely fanboying.

And he must have looked at me and thought, you know, who, who, who, the hell's this, but I just said you mean so much to me and thank you so much for all your work. It's just an honour and all the... Did he say anything? No, I think he was just a bit overwhelmed. No, I love that. So you actually shook

his hand. Completely, yeah. Grabbed him, Mr. Shaky hand. I wouldn't let him go. I love that. And you need to do those things. I think, you know, I much prefer it when people are like that. I've done it to a few people. I just sort of get a sort of blubbery and go, I can't believe it. I remember doing it to somebody

and at the time the guy that I was with said, I can't believe you just did that. I said, do you know what? I'm going to be able to tell my grandchildren shook his hand. It's that feeling. And you know, a lot of people would rather that than, can I have a selfie? Yes.

You know what I mean? A selfie is nothing. In fact, I worked with Lawrence Fishburn in South Africa one time and every time someone asking for a selfie he'd say, no, but let's have a chat. Let's have a chat. How are you? How's your day? and have that little bit of interaction and then say off you go see you later

and then all the best thanks for nice meeting you rather than the yeah and off you go nothing so so I understand why people would prefer that to have someone come up to them and say shake your hand and give you a good boosting rather than can I just have a selfie outside Tesco's

anyone that's listening shake their hand don't ask for a selfie so Homeland happened and then so do you feel I mean obviously then supergirl and My 16-year-old, she's 16 now. But at the time, and she was watching it, and you were on, I said, Oh, I know him.

No, you don't, mum. I do. I've interviewed him recently. No, you haven't. It was a few years ago. No, I really have. She went, no. And she just, it was so funny.

Like, no, he's in super-girl. You sort of untouchable, unreal. And then he imagined me in Tesco's in Strutton. Well, I love it because people look at you, go, how are you here? That's lovely, though. That's normal. It is. And I'm very normal. To maybe to a fault, I think. I think sometimes you need to, maybe you need to give yourself a bit of a boosting.

I don't know. Have you had somebody come and do the handshake with you? Oh, loads. Oh, I see. And what did they say? I hope you get young black actors coming up to you and saying thank you. I do. I get a lot of that. And I'll tell you one of the ones. really special one I had the other day.

And again, all your listeners probably heard these stories now. But I was walking down straight up my road and this rather large black gentleman kind of spotted me across the road and just made a bee line for me. I thought, here we go.

And he just grabbed my hand and he and I could kind of see him sort of welling up or anything. He was welling up and I was like, oh. And he said, I just want to say, I was in prison when I watched your documentary. I'm like, what?

He went, yeah. He said, I was just going, I was on. one and the guard said to me, you need to watch this documentary from this guy, David Harewood. And I said, I fubbed him off. He said, but the next day I was really not in a good state of mind. And I asked him for the keys to the library.

I said, when in I got your documentary? And he said, I'll burst into tears. He said, it's the first time I realised I've got a mental health condition. I've got depression. And he said, I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't seen your documentary. I just want to say, thank you very much. He just walked off. That's very special.

That for me is worth all the awards. Of course it is. That's really special. Wow. And there'll be so many others that haven't come up to you and said that that you were going to have. But let's go back to the escapism and the joy of acting. For you, now you're back here.

If you get the call from America, is it jump on a plane and go straight back again? Pretty much. It is. You've just done that amazing show in the West End and, you know, rave reviews again. You know, I don't know if you read reviews. I don't know how you cope with the reviews,

but they were great, just in case you haven't read them. Congratulations. I read a few. Yeah, I was really pleased. We were all really pleased with the piece. But, you know, it's, it's, that's the business. The business is the business. And, you know, that play came to an end.

and there wasn't really anything there. You know, it wasn't, it's not like, I mean, people think I'm like fending off scripts and wading through scripts as a walk in the door. It's not like that. And, you know, unfortunately, there weren't, there was a lot of opportunities after the play towards the end of the end of the run.

There were, you know, a few offers of work, but they just weren't good enough. Right. And, um... They weren't the things that you wanted to do. The one, not the things that I want to do. Right. And I've done a lot.

and so it's got to be something which is pretty good to get me out of bed. And, you know, because of the work I've done in the States, I'm comfortable. You know, I can afford to say no for a bit. But that's the strongest thing to say no in anything, whatever job it is, it's not just acting and music and all the rest of it, to be able to have the strength inside you to say, actually, that's a no. Yeah, thanks but no.

But you've said yes to some. I mean, you've played some of the greatest people that have ever in history as well. You know, Mandela and Martin Luther King. And playing people like that, that must be something so deep inside you where you just go, well, that's an honour. Oh, yeah. And you start off in panic. You know, you always think, yeah, you always do.

It's like any part, any big part, you think, I can't do this, I can't do this. That little voice say, I can't do that. and then you sort of especially with Mandela now reading long walks of freedom which was an amazing book but you sort of

you sort of have to digest all of this whole icon and then narrow it down to the man and what I've learnt now is that's all you can do is everyone's got their idea of what this person is

and there's all videotape of some of these people but then at the end of the day you sort of just whittling down to the man because you're not doing an impression no You weren't doing an impression. I don't think so.

They weren't. And sometimes, initially I was when I played Mandela. And I had to kind of soften it a little bit. But, I mean, it's great to be able to experience that. And I almost met him because I was playing him. I was in South Africa. Person I always wanted to meet. So that was a bit of a shame.

But it's a joy to play those people. Real joy. Playing real people is always great. Really? Yeah. Is it not tougher? Because all the video. are out there.

Exactly. So you kind of think someone out there might be watching that and think, that's off the mark. So you just try your best to, I do anyway. Just try my best to, you know,

to give it full, do it as honestly as I can. And one of the great things about playing William F. Buckley, who was a white conservative, how the hell I, and I turned that down initially. I thought there's no way I can play that.

But actually getting to know him and I strangely enough began to admire him in a very bizarre way and so it was quite a fond a portrayal in the end I thought I was going to play him like some sort of cold sort of white nationalist but but I found him

warm humorous very funny loved his, adored his wife and and yes said some things early in the 60s that were that impacted the black community very badly but changed his mind changed his viewpoint after King died and in the end was supporting civil rights so and sort of breaking away from the more from the more

sort of ideological elements within the white nationalist side on on the right just sort of peeled peeled back from that so so so and it was wonderful to have these these elderly Americans when they saw the show going my God you captured him so well. And you think, you know, here's me a black Englishman capturing elements of William F. Buckley, a white conservative, that they

actually said some, yeah, you caught him really well. You caught his manner, caught his voice. Yeah, wonderful. So I, so I, that's the nature of it. It's the essence. The essence of, I mean, Damien telling me that. Damien Lewis was telling me that. When he auditioned for Band of Brothers,

which was a huge part for him and he told me this story when it was obviously down to two actors and he turned up at the studio and he said he saw this square George handsome huge American guy and he said obviously that's that's him

he said that is him and he just thought I'm not going to get this gig the guy went in came out they kind of nodded on the way out on his way out and Damien went in, did his thing, and he got the job. And he asked the director why, and he said it's all about essence. It's done about what you look like.

That's so useful for every actor who's listening to this. If you've got the essence of the character, you're in, doesn't matter what you look like. That's such good advice. With your, the other thing that you talk about, obviously, you are a black actor, you're a black man. You've talked a lot about that, and you've, you, I think the thing I'm most fascinated by, obviously,

is the portrait being done in Harewood House and learning all of that that you learnt and about your family. And I just, I still, I'm heartbroken that that fight is still needing to be fought, whether it's racism, homophobia, sexism, anti-Semitism. It's crazy.

Just, I find it utterly heartbreaking that we're in 2020. It seems to be coming back in various places. It's just, why? I think, why is there so much hate? We've created this a very antagonistic society.

Twitter, you know, us and them were left, right. And our ways of communicating now are so easy. And our silos have become so different. find that we're kind of stop listening to each other. And, you know, it's voices on the right and voices on the left, and that's it. And I personally think that the voices on the right are getting louder. And as they sort of lose the battle, because younger people are much more progressive, gender,

fluid, with race, with race, they're much more. easy going and quickly. And I think there's an older element that are sort of hanging on to the old world desperately want to start building walls and fences and saying we want to stop this progressive not. We want to keep it as it is.

And it's increasingly difficult to do that. But I think those voices on the right are getting louder and unfortunately some of them are getting quite popular. But also there are people who, like you, who are outspoken, many people who are outspoken. But I don't think, but I don't know if there's anybody globally on the left who's got a real track for it. You know, I think. People are listening to. I don't know if there are anybody there.

I mean, I'm sure they exist. But it's worrying how the more, I say, attractive voices, but the more because they are. The louder voices. The louder voices. We're on the right. I mean, look at Brexit. You know. What was it Farage the other day saying Brexit has failed? I mean, it's extraordinary.

The man who, you know, banged on about it for so long, he's now going, you know what, it's failed. What about all the promises, Nige? What about all the things that we were supposed to get, Nige? Nothing. Have you sat opposite him at a table? Nothing. Have you ever had that conversation?

No, I'm not sure how I would relate to someone like that. I'd watch that. I'd watch you and Nigel Farage. What? Golly, he's, you know, he's, you know, he's articulate and political. And, you know, but I'm just astonished that, that he still exists. And BBC will still have him on the show and Sky interviewed him the other day. And, you know, he's on GB News.

And you just think, what have we learned from all that? Nothing. What have we got from it? Nothing. Will you make that programme? To Harewood Leets Farah. Yeah. I'll be watching.

I will be watching. So all of sight, everything that we've said, you do smile a lot. And so I want to know what makes you properly laugh. Do you laugh? Do you laugh? Do you belly laugh? I used to belly. I don't laugh as much. You don't belly laugh anymore? I mean, I do, but not as much as I used to. Why is that?

I'm not around the people who make me belly laugh. Who are the people that make you belly laugh? When my friend who sadly passed away, that was somebody who would always mean. me belly laugh. Oh, I'm sorry. He was my best mate. I'm so sorry. Losing him just before I got. Actually, I got home.

So I lost, I lost him. Didn't work for nine months because I couldn't get my head together. It was very nearly went under financially. And then when I got homeland, the day I got homeland, it was his birthday. No, he's watching over you. He was the guy, he always said, you're going to make it. You're going to make it. He was the only one.

He said, you're going to make it. So to get home round on his birthday, and it's literally been a step. He's watching you. Of course he is. So I sort of, occasionally I'll be. What's his name? Louis. Louis.

I'll be in the garden and I'll just do something that we, a silly voice we used to do. And I'll just be laughing. That's lovely. But there's not many people who can do that. And I miss them. I miss, I'm, there are a couple of people that, that I know that I still laugh with. But, yeah, it's, I. Call them and say I need a laugh.

Do you know what? That's a good idea and I should do it. I should. Because I need to laugh more. I don't think I laugh enough. Okay. Call them off. Do you know, it's really interesting.

When I sometimes put that on socials, I'll say, do me a favour today. Just call that person that you were meaning to call. I, you know, everybody knows that Paula Grady was one of my dearest friends. And I had in my phone call Savage and he died. And I put it in about three. three days before, I thought, I haven't spoken to Savage for a few weeks. And we used to speak a lot and we laughed.

Oh, my God, it came it off. So I just remind people, just call that person. Yeah, it's important. You never know. So do it. I will. After this? I will.

All right, walk out of here and call them. That would be so nice. What are their names? Gary. Okay, Gary, you expect them. Hopefully he would have called you by now, Gary. David Harewood, it's just always lovely to see you. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.