That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Dr Kerry Burnight

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

Gaby welcomes Gerontologist, Kerry Burnight, to the podcast. Dr Kerry shares her passion about healthy aging, stories of patients who want to make being older better, and advice from her new book 'Joyspan: The Art And Science Of Thriving In Life's Second Half' They discuss the importance of 'the simple things' (music, nature, companionship), weight lifting - and - why people should talk more about dying with their relatives, partners and friends.This is joyful, upbeat chat about the beauty of aging and celebrating life! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Dr. Kerry Burnite, it's so lovely that you're here, but physically here, because you and I have spoken before, down the line from the States. Welcome to the UK. Thank you. I have been here a day and absolutely loved it. But you just said to me what you did in a day. I mean, you've done everything. There's sort of nothing left to do. You've done it all. You and your husband. And you've had a good time. We did 20,000 steps and would hopefully do the same today. Good. Well, thank you so much for coming. in and thank you for your book, Joy Span. I think this book is really wonderful. You and I,

obviously, this is reasons to be joyful, the podcast. I've got to book out reasons, spread the joy. And then I completely, when I saw this book, I had to have you in because Joy Span, a short guide to enjoying your long life. And people that I admire and who've been on this podcast as well, Mel Robbins, a must have guide to living longer and better, it's so interesting that a lot of people the reaction, we've just spoken to somebody before we started recording, he said, oh well, you know, the last 20, I don't know if I want to live long

because the last 20 years, oh, it's going to be awful. But that's, I mean, you know what you know your stuff. You're America's gerol, I can't say the word. Gerontologist, gerontologist. It's not common. It's gerontologist. Gerontologist. You've made it fancier.

I've made it gerontologist. It sounds like a musical theatre number. Gerontologist. So you know your stuff. it's sad that a lot of people think, oh, the last 20 years are going to be like that. Because they don't have to be, do they carry? No. And there's a reason that we feel that way.

And the reason is, is that we have been trained to think that getting older is all decline. And it's this awful thing that we need to avoid and deny and defy. It's a really lucrative business. It's a multi-billion dollar business to say, oh, just never get. get old. You mean with everything? With everything. Yes.

How you look. Yes. And as if that you, the message is that if you can somehow just hold on to youth all lifelong. And of course you can't. And also why would you want to? But what's not publicized and what the research shows us is that there are many things that get better as you get older.

See, I mean, that's why I love your book. but also I love your Instagram feed with your mom, but we'll talk about that after. So what are those things that get better then? Yes. So the first is, and I'm starting to just in my mid-50s experience this of, you don't care as much what other people think about you. Yes. And it's liberating.

I mean, thank heaven for that. So would I go back to 20? No, there was so much that came with it. So another is our problem solving. So we have this integration of the left and right hemisphere of our brain and all this experience in all these life experiences that we can use to solve problems. So we don't go all up in arms when things go wrong like we used to. So again, in my 30s, something would go wrong or I would be late. I would practically, you know, be crying in the car on the way there.

And now you think, well, I gave it my best, you know. So another one is the appreciation of our friendships, the appreciation of beauty and nature and music. So the simple, I'm going to use the word simple, because they're actually accessible to everybody. Those things are for everybody. You don't need to have a rocket ship and fly to the moon. Right. You, anyone can appreciate those things. And maybe we appreciate them more when we get old.

because there's less stuff in the way. Well, we've seen behind the glitter. So when you're young, you think, oh, if I just would attain this or this material thing or if people thought this of me. And happily, as we get older, we realize there's nothing behind all that. What really matters, like the simple goodness and its wisdom that enables us to access that. Why is it that people, I mean I happily admit that I'm 33 every birthday. It's just a number.

That's what I say, because I don't feel any different inside. As you say, I don't really care what people think as much as I used to and all of those things. But I don't feel any different. But what is it about the ageing process that outside, and I'm not not talking about us as people, but outside. So the general public, when they're looking at movie stars, they don't want them to get older, but they say they want them to get older. The movie star, whoever this person is, male or female,

changes, makes themselves look younger because they perceive that to then be what people want. Then people make a judgment and say, oh, look what they've done to their face. Then that person does more, it breaks my heart. It breaks my heart. Obviously, anybody can do what they want if it makes them happy. Do it.

Do what you want. Yes. I love what you're saying because it takes out the judgment. Yeah. Oh, we're so judgmental. It's also a no-win proposition. So if we take it back from the celebrities to just a regular person, you go, if I do all these things to try to stay young, people will say things.

If I let myself grow older. But I think there is another way. that way is to embrace the age we are and think, I am going to be an 82 that is the most fabulous version. And I think wearing bright colors and fun glasses or if you want to do piercings or a mohawk or anything that you feel like doing, not to look younger, but to continue to look good. And I think sometimes we've entwined young and good, but I think young we don't have to have, but good, absolutely. I love that.

What your good is. So some of the most radiantly beautiful people I know, they don't look young. They look the age that they are in a really good and cool and fun way that is most authentically themselves. That's the interesting thing. It's themselves. I remember my late granny used to say that she was older than she was, and people say, no, you're not great for your age, and she used to giggle. Yes. She thought it was very funny.

Yes. Helen Muran, who I look up to so much, somebody said, you're not old, and she said, yes, I am. I have already been young. I've done that. I'm old, and I want to step into it, and it's not a bad thing. So don't say, so when people say, well, hello, young lady, you don't need to say that. I've already been young. But here's the thing.

So I want to get into the brain in a minute. But here's the thing that it's very interesting that for women and people will always say, you look good for your age. You don't, nobody ever says that to a man. You look good for your age. Yes. It's funny that, isn't it? Yes, and we don't need to say for your age.

Just you look good. Just drop it. You are on the right path. You look great. Yes. Done. So can we just talk. about going into the brain. So this is something that you've studied. How can we stave off,

we're reading more and more and more about dementia, various forms. There's over 200 types of dementia that we know of at the moment. How can we do what we can, whatever the outcome at the very end, how can we do make that path easier for ourselves with or without getting a and dementia and what our brain is doing, the physical medical side. Yes. So there was a large study showing that 40% of the cases of dementia globally would be reduced if we did these certain lifestyle changes. That's a lot. That's a massive amount. It shows that we have not all the control, but we have some control. And those are things that People know, but it's one thing to know them versus doing them.

Do you do them? I do. I do. So the first is we got to make sure that we're moving our bodies. And people will say, how much? And it was like, get out there every day. If you can walk, walk. If you can't walk, you can still move your body.

So are you getting a little sweaty each day? And sometimes people say, I don't know how much. I'm like, just, are you getting a little sweaty? Okay, good. The other thing is making sure that we have adequate social connection. It's an incredible research literature showing us having meaningful connection with other humans makes a difference. And that loneliness is as deadly as smoking 14 cigarettes a day.

So what this means is if you don't feel that you have the connection that you would like to have or you're feeling lonely, which we define as wishing you had more social interaction, you need to be the proactive one. So when patients come to me and say, I'm lonely, nobody calls me. But it's great that they say that. It's so great. I mean, we've got to break the taboo. I work in a whole thing about tackling loneliness.

We're trying to break the taboo. Good. But the people use that word to you, I think, is we should celebrate that they're using the word. Absolutely. And in fact, the UK leads efforts globally in, you know, tackling this horrible thing that we all have some time. Like every one of us, if we're honest, has been lonely and we'll have times of loneliness. And sometimes you can be surrounded by people and still be lonely. But when it's older people and they come to you and they say that, how can they be proactive? Because it's not, it might not be

as easy for them to go to a bar or to a club or to play cards with somebody. Yes, I love that. So what I always say is that in order to have social connections, you need to be that friend. And that friend is the one who is picking up the telephone, who is remembering that it's been five years since your husband passed away, who is saying, may I take you to your chemotherapy appointment if I still drive? Or simply, I have a friend now who is nonverbal as a result of many things. And yet, when she listens to me, her eyes just light up. And I seek her out for her listening. And she inspires me that regardless of life's circumstances and there will be challenges, that still that human connection as a result of listening means something.

And so what I say is everyone will be lonely and it is our job to find a way to reach out to other. There's could be your next door neighbor, you know, maybe if you live in a facility and you go knock next door, being the proactive one who puts themselves out there really makes the difference. And for you, with your wonderful mother, oh, goodness me, on social media, you on Instagram with your beautiful mother, and I mean beautiful in every single way. She is a, well, she always like that? Or is it since you've been working in the sphere that you two together have created this? She would say she was not always like that.

Oh, wow. She did not have a great attitude, she would say. And she, as we went through the science of joy span, she started implementing these four tangible steps. And it was just in the same way that we exercise our physical self with cardiovascular strength, flexibility. and agility, she was exercising her internal strength. That is, like we were talking about connection, giving, growing, adapting. And in doing those, it put her on a different path. And so I have shared her on my Instagram, the underscore gerontologist, to give people an example.

But she's not unique. There are millions of people who are thriving in old age. and it is something that is accessible to all of us. There's always room for improvement, and it's never too early to start. But it's also never too late to start. I was going to say, I presume it's never too late either. You were talking about strength,

and I've been reading so much recently about how weights are important, us lifting weights. And I was talking to somebody recently who says, well, I work from home, and I don't have time to do it. I'm not going to go to the gym. I can't afford going to the gym. I've got a couple of weights,

but I don't know what I'm doing. And I said, go on YouTube, have a look. There's so many workouts. But no, I'm not interested. And I wonder how, without being the person that says you must, how do you, so somebody will be listening to this now and thinking, I really want to do it, but I don't want to be told to do it, but I really want to do it.

Or I know somebody who really should be doing it. How do you help, I was going to say persuade, but that's wrong. How do you help somebody onto that way of thinking? I love your question. Where it starts is with yourself. So ultimately, each of us really can only control ourselves. So think first about your aging. Are you doing these things that you would like somebody else to do,

your mom, your husband, whatever? And it's both strength inside and outside. So the outside part, yes, doing hard, lifting heavy weights, could be in your home. It doesn't have to be a weight even. It could even be something you lift. But then also internally doing hard things. So navigating things or thinking, I'm going to push myself. So it requires us to push ourselves. Once you are doing hard things, both for your physical body and your internal self, then you're in a better position to say to somebody else who is not doing these, longevity things to say, you know, I understand that it seems hard and tiring and why bother, but what I have found in my life and then walk them through what you're doing, you know, and they may choose to do that and they may not. And so sometimes I say, if you choose to avoid all the suffering of old age by using these tips in JoySpan, great. And if not, to a certain degree we do need to, as Mel Robbins say, let them.

Yes. There's a certain point where you think people are going to do things their own way, even though it's not the way we would hope. But medically it's been found that lifting weights, it's good for the brain, which I find so fascinating. You think, hold on, I'm lifting a weight. I can, the brain training that everyone says to do. And I, you know, like everybody else, if I sit on a train, I'll suddenly do my brain

training on my phone and I actually really enjoy it. Or my duolingo and learning. a new language, but the physical stuff, the walking, the lifting weights, it's actually good for our muscles. That's right, isn't it? It is. The actual medical side. It's absolutely right.

So when you lift something heavy, your muscles break down and then our bodies send, you know, the ability to build those muscles and it impacts our whole entire bodies by doing those things and the same thing with doing hard things. And it can be brain training, but it also can just be hard things of going, huh. For example, I work with a lot of people who lose their spouse. And maybe the spouse has always done the paying the bills. And then you need to think, you can choose, I can't do that. That's something I've never done. I can't. Or you say, this is hard. I'm going to try. Yes. And it is that trying and doing. doing things and failing at things, ironically, that is the thing that helps us.

So when you tell yourself, I can't because I'm too old, then have another voice to say, give it a try. But we need that at any age, don't we? Yes, any age. All those, you know, the teenagers who say, oh, I can't do that, I can't do that. Yeah, try. Yes. It's just.

And what if you fail? Good. Yeah, good. Yeah. Then you'll try again. All those lessons. certain people put a lot of multi-million pounds into flying into space. What if they put that money into, well, world relief or many things,

but into health and into poverty and to all of that, but into finding out more about our brains? Because brain specialists still don't know everything about our brains, but they know more about space. We research is more important than ever. And in many places, particularly where I am from, we are cutting funding. And that has a really adverse, not just now, but in the future. So there is much still to be learned about keeping our brains healthy and about dementia and different modalities. And so I am a huge proponent that we need to keep learning because there are still so much that we don't understand. Are there parts of the brain that recently people have learned about that have, I'm going to use a ridiculous phrase, but have blown our minds?

You know, recently, is there something that you've learned and you've thought, and that explains that? Well, one part that I am quite interested is there is a part of the brain that stores emotionally salient memories. And so, for example, when something means a lot to you, you'll store it in a part of the brain. So when people that I work with who are living with dementia, when we can stimulate that emotionally salient memory, and music is often the way to do that. And so I have a patient who is nonverbal and quite contracted, but what we learned is that she sang hymns in her church.

And so these certain hymns, they were kind of hard to find, but once we did, we played them. And she then sang the music. And then afterwards she said the word lovely about 20 times. Oh, Carrie, that must have just been the best. The best. Yes. And her daughter, I said, you've got to come. So she came and just tears were pouring out from all of us.

But that, and that's why we never say, oh, people would. dementia are not there. I mean, it's more, the personhood must always be maintained and the dignity and the autonomy. And, you know, sometimes we're so just all about safety. And safety is one piece. But dignity and autonomy are things that we need to be balancing these pieces. I remember seeing footage of a beautiful footage of a ballerina. She was exactly as you described. Have you seen the This much older beautiful lady who was sunk like that. And they played her the music that she danced to. And suddenly she became that ballerina.

Yes. It is one of the most beautiful things. That's a beautiful example. That's right. And that's where that's stored in the brain. So if you have someone in your life who's living with dementia, if you can think about an emotionally meaningful song. So it could be, for example, a Christmas carol,

or maybe even happy birthday, because happy birthday elicits something in us. And so when people say, what is good music for dementia, it depends upon the person. Of course, it's a really think about, okay, they maybe were teenagers, let's say in the 1940s, and therefore here was the music, and then play that music. It's a real tool that I sometimes overlooked or at end of life. I love to play music at end of life because I think it takes people out of some of the pain and being trapped or alone. I mean, that is obviously, as you said just before we came in here, you know, the two inevitable things are we are going to, well, if we're lucky enough, we get older, but we are going to die. Nobody ever talks about it.

Right, as if it's something wrong. So for my undergraduate students at the university, I start with a big circle behind myself. And I said, let's talk about mortality. And it's just a red circle all the way filled in, a hundred percent on the pie chart. Every one of us here is a great. going to die and that's not a bad thing and it's not a mistake and it's not something but it's not something we we all want i mean obviously there are people who who may and apologies to those people who are feeling that right now and i hope they go and talk to somebody but but it's not something that we all want but it is inevitable yes and it is natural and that talking about it and thinking about it and sharing with a loved one about it, it's not morbid. And so when people say, but I just, I don't like, it seems messy when you die. Well, it was very messy when you were born.

When you were born, there was a lot of mess. Yeah. You've got babies. I've had babies. A lot of mess. Oh, more mess than. Yeah. Yeah.

So it is a part of life. And when you think about it of thinking, yes, I've a certain amount of time here, how can I maximize that time? and then when my time is over, it won't be like, oh, that's just such a tragedy. No, because sometimes when people, there's something, there's a movement that don't dive movement where the Silicon Valley, yes. Don't die movement. Yes. I can imagine there's a certain president who feels that he's never going to do that.

Let's not talk about him. No. But there are people, there are some narcissists out there who's like, I'm never going to die. Right. And so this is Brian Johnson is his name. And he's created these conferences that people go to and they put all these things that you can do up as if you're not going to die. What? Sorry, I'm being really stupid. You are? What? What?

Are they going to freeze themselves? Right. All these things of people, what they're trying. And so the point is, wow, you've wasted, in my opinion, your life on doing something that's not going to happen. And even if it could happen, would we want that? No. because like the earth wasn't meant to sustain people indefinitely. Like really think it through. If you're a person who thinks I want to live forever, really like think it through.

Yeah, but what about all the people that aren't around that you love and that you want to see and they're not there anymore? Right. You're 500 years old. And what about all those lovely people that didn't, that die? That's right. Yeah. You'd be very lonely. Yes.

And many of us feel like there is this earth part of life and that they're, We can't understand it, but there's probably other things beyond. And so I feel hopeful about that, thinking about this earthly experience may not be the only component of it. So when you've been there with people who have passed, I mean, you say you play music, which I think is such a beautiful idea, that is it that you're aware of the earthly being going? And are you aware that there may be something? And have you sort of witnessed that? And that's a very big, huge question.

I have witnessed it. And so, of course, I would not be honest to say I know for sure. I certainly do not. But some of the expressions that I see on people's face and some of the words that they say have been very encouraging to me. Wow. Yeah. And beautiful. And even in pain, there's great beauty to it too.

And so, like, sometimes rubbing people's feet or hands or having some beautiful smells or just like, I'm here, I'm here. There can be great beauty in death as well. Aren't you a lovely person? Sometimes. Your husband's now looking like. I can see your husband through the glass. He's laughing.

He's probably thinking, ah! You're waiting to you see it. He's nodding. Four o'clock in the morning where something happens. Can I just ask you about imagination? Because this is something I feel very strongly about. There is something that happens and we don't know what age it is. And I talk about it in my book as well. That our imaginations go. So we have it as a child and we can picture anything and we can be anything and we can be anywhere. And you can think of crazy things. You could just laugh. And you look at the sky and you look at the clouds and there's a circus going on up there. and all of that.

Then something happens and it goes. And a lot of adults find it very difficult to use that. I mean, I have a very vivid imagination and I daydream a lot. But when I have this conversation with people, they say, I can't do that. Do you think that's important to try and hold on to? And as we get older, should we try and amuse ourselves with our imaginations? I think it's critically important.

And I think, like anything, when you continue to use something and value something, it grows. But sometimes we have, because of work and all these responsibilities, we've maybe let go of the muscle of imagination. But that's not to say that we couldn't regain it. There are some incredible artists in their 90s and 100s who have incredible imaginations. So I know for sure that it's possible, but it doesn't just happen. It would take a decision to say, I'm going to give myself some. time to imagine. And I write about, for example, humor in the book is a really big part of it. It's so important. Deciding that there is a lot of ridiculousness in life and that every day I make

a mistake. And so I never run out of material because... And you laugh at yourself. I laugh at myself. But isn't it important? See, that's another thing. I was going to get onto the humor. That's interesting. Because a lot of people don't like people laughing at them or laughing at If I can have people laughing at me and laugh at myself, I'm perfectly happy. You know, I will, if I trip up and people giggle, then I'll, because I'm laughing. You know, if I, my favourite thing is if, I hope they don't hurt themselves,

but if somebody walks into a tree, I'm really sorry, I laugh. My little girl when she was two, and I always tell this story, but when she was two, I saw her falling down the stairs on her bottom. And I was totally aware that she was okay, but she sort of bounced on her bottom. She got to the bottom. And I said, first, are you okay? He went, Mommy, I fell.

And I laughed so much. And the two of us ended up laughing. And she now, she laughs when that sort of thing happens. And some people say, you're sick. You're sick with your girls. Because both the girls laugh. But actually, laughter is a coping mechanism. It is a coping mechanism.

And when you're older, how wonderful to see older people laughing. Yes. And it's not just. I'm a funny person or I'm not a funny person. It, too, like imagination, is something that we can work on. But how? One is try to learn at least one joke and pull that joke out when you can. That's great.

It's great. It's so simple. I love it. And then watch funny television programs or fun and funny podcasts. Also hang out with people who make you laugh and give it a go, like to try to work that muscle so that we don't become more and more serious and tighter and tighter. I mean, some of the most delightful people I know are older people who can laugh. Yeah.

It was very interesting the other day, and you must go and see it, but we went to see the producers in the West End. And what I realized by the end of it was that it was a, there wasn't one person in the audience who wasn't laughing. So there was a mass laughter, loud, Loud, loud laughter. And it is what we're like... Because the news is very bleak and very dark.

And there was a group of... A big group of people in a theatre. All laughing at the same things, at the same time, for the same reasons. Everybody in the interval was still laughing. Everybody afterwards left happy. And you felt that everybody was lighter. Goodness me, we need that.

with all the tragedy and all the disheartening things that are going on right now, joy, as you write about, as I write about, is almost an act of resistance, an act to say that we need to continue to fortify ourselves with love and kindness and giving, not because we're ignoring the heartbreak, but in order to be of use that we don't all drown. And so that's why offering joy isn't frivolous. It isn't toxic positivity. It's quite serious, our joy. What a perfect way to end.

Thank you so much. Thank you.